Who did Ron Paul say he'd pardon?

[jenninlouisiana]

I didn't catch that. (This was right before the first commercial break).

[fortilite]

The border patrol agents who were arrested for defending themselves.

[SeanEdwards]

Ramos and Compean, the border agents who shot some guy in the back and then lied and tried to cover it up.

[OptionsTrader]

Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean

[LibertyEagle]

Ramos and Compean, the border agents who shot some guy in the back and then lied and tried to cover it up.

You need to do some more reading, because that does not appear to be true at all.

[paulpwns]

Ramos and Compean, the border agents who shot some guy in the back and then lied and tried to cover it up.

What a lie.

[OptionsTrader]

Ramos and Compean, the border agents who shot some guy in the back and then lied and tried to cover it up.

Incorrect. Read about it some more.

[jenninlouisiana]

O.K. I remember. My BIL is a customs agent in Yuma, Az. I think this incident was near there?

Thanks.

[SeanEdwards]

They lied. They didn't report shooting at a guy, and they tried to cover it up. If their act had been legitimate they would have reported it. Being a border agent is not a license to commit murder.

[ronpaulitician]

Based on what I've heard (as in, the government story), they tried to dispose of evidence.

[Delaware]

Ramos and Compean, the border agents who shot some guy in the back and then lied and tried to cover it up.


They shot an illegal border crossing Drug dealer.

[fortilite]

Compean was patrolling a section of border with another agent when they spotted a man crossing the border. They stopped him in a van containing 743 pounds of marijuana,[1] but he ran. Compeán said he thought the suspect had a gun and was going to shoot him so he fired at him first. His shot missed but his partner, hearing gunfire fired in order to defend Compeán and hit the suspect in the buttocks. They lost sight of the man but said they saw him on the Mexican side of the border. They did not believe he had been injured so they did not report the incident.

That is Compean's side of things. He could be lying. He could be telling the truth. It could be somewhere in the middle. Will anyone on these forums know the real truth? Most likely no.

Can we all agree though that if there were a border fence this wouldn't have happened in the first place?

[FireofLiberty]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51417


When Border Patrol Agent Ignacio Ramos pulled the trigger last February, all he knew was that his partner was lying on the ground behind him – bloodied from a struggle with a fleeing suspect – shots had been fired and now, it appeared, the drug smuggler he was pursuing had turned toward him with what looked to be a gun in his hand.

In the split-second he had to respond, Ramos determined the course of his and his partner's lives – federal prison for the next 20 years for assault with serious bodily injury, assault with a deadly weapon, discharging of a firearm in relation to a crime of violence, violating civil rights and obstruction of justice.

Ramos, 37, is an eight-year veteran of the U.S. Naval Reserve and a former nominee for Border Patrol Agent of the Year.

On February 17, he responded to a request for back up from agent Jose Alonso Compean, 28, who noticed a suspicious van near the levee road along the Rio Grande River near the Texas town of Fabens, about 40 miles east of El Paso.

Ramos, who headed toward Fabens hoping to cut off the van, soon joined a third agent already in pursuit.

Behind the wheel of the van was an illegal alien, Osbaldo Aldrete-Davila of Mexico. Unknown to the growing number of Border Patrol agents converging on Fabens, Aldrete-Davila's van was carrying 800 pounds of marijuana.

Unable to outrun Ramos and the third agent, Aldrete-Davila stopped the van on the levee, jumped out and started running toward the river. When he reached the other side of the levee, he was met by Compean who had anticipated the smuggler's attempt to get back to Mexico.

"We both yelled out for him to stop, but he wouldn't stop, and he just kept running," Ramos told California's Inland Valley Daily Bulletin. Aldrete-Davila crossed a canal.

"At some point during the time where I'm crossing the canal, I hear shots being fired," Ramos said. "Later, I see Compean on the ground, but I keep running after the smuggler."

At that point, Ramos said, Aldrete-Davila turned toward him, pointing what looked like a gun.

"I shot," Ramos said. "But I didn't think he was hit, because he kept running into the brush and then disappeared into it. Later, we all watched as he jumped into a van waiting for him. He seemed fine. It didn't look like he had been hit at all."

The commotion and multiple calls for back up had brought seven other agents – including two supervisors – to the crossing by this time. Compean picked up his shell casings, but Ramos did not. He also did not follow agency procedure and report that he had fired his weapon.

"The supervisors knew that shots were fired," Ramos told the paper. "Since nobody was injured or hurt, we didn't file the report. That's the only thing I would've done different."

Had he done that one thing differently, it's unlikely it would have mattered to prosecutors.

Over two weeks after the incident, Christopher Sanchez, an investigator with the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Inspector General, received a call from a Border Patrol agent in Wilcox, Ariz. The agent's mother-in-law had received a call from Aldrete-Davila's mother in Mexico telling her that her son had been wounded in the buttocks in the shooting.

Sanchez followed up with a call of his own to the smuggler in Mexico.

In a move that still confuses Ramos and Compean, the U.S. government filed charges against them after giving full immunity to Aldrete-Davila and paying for his medical treatment at an El Paso hospital.

At trial, Assistant U.S. Attorney Debra Kanof told the court that the agents had violated an unarmed Aldrete-Davila's civil rights.

"The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled it is a violation of someone's Fourth Amendment rights to shoot them in the back while fleeing if you don't know who they are and/or if you don't know they have a weapon," said Kanof.

Kanof dismissed Ramos' testimony that he had seen something shiny in the smuggler's hand, saying that the agent couldn't be sure it was a gun he had seen.

Further, Kanof argued, it was a violation of Border Patrol policy for agents to pursue fleeing suspects.

"Agents are not allowed to pursue. In order to exceed the speed limit, you have to get supervisor approval, and they did not," she told the Daily Bulletin.

Those shell casings Compean picked up were described to the jury as destroying the crime scene and their failure to file an incident report – punishable by a five-day suspension, according to Border Patrol regulations – an attempted cover up.

The Texas jury came back with a guilty verdict. Conviction for discharging a firearm in relation to a crime of violence has an automatic 10-year sentence. The other counts have varying punishments. Ramos and Compean will be sentenced next month.

"How are we supposed to follow the Border Patrol strategy of apprehending terrorists or drug smugglers if we are not supposed to pursue fleeing people?" said Ramos, who noted that he only did on that day what he had done for the previous 10 years. "Everybody who's breaking the law flees from us. What are we supposed to do? Do they want us to catch them or not?"

He also noted that none of the other agents who had responded to the incident filed reports that shots were fired and, besides, both supervisors at the scene knew they had discharged their weapons.

"You need to tell a supervisor because you can't assume that a supervisor knows about it," Kanof countered. "You have to report any discharge of a firearm."

"This is the greatest miscarriage of justice I have ever seen," said Andy Ramirez of the nonprofit group Friends of the Border Patrol. "This drug smuggler has fully contributed to the destruction of two brave agents and their families and has sent a very loud message to the other Border Patrol agents: If you confront a smuggler, this is what will happen to you."

The El Paso Sheriff's Department has increased its patrols around the Ramos home. The family is receiving threats from people they believe are associated with Aldrete-Davila.

[SeanEdwards]

They shot an illegal border crossing Drug dealer.

And that's irrelevant.

[InRonWeTrust]

Ramos and Compean should be freed, IMO.

[FireofLiberty]

Ramos and Compean, the border agents who shot some guy in the back and then lied and tried to cover it up.

"Some guy"? Of course, if by "some guy" you mean an illegally crossing drug dealer who appeared to have a gun and engaged in a bloody struggle with Compean, than yeah, you've got a piece of the story that makes the case as to why they should be pardoned.

[daikonv]

Two border patrol agents (Ramos and Compean). The story is long so I'll highlight what occured.

- suspicious van called in
- Jose Alonso Compean calls for backup
- Ignacio Ramos cuts off van
- driver flees car and tries to run for mexico
- shots fired, compean on the ground
- ramos continues not knowing who shot and what injuries occured
- suspect turns around with what looks like a gun
- ramos shoots at the suspect
- suspect runs into a van waiting for him on the other side and gets away
- no report filed since no injuries

- suspect in mexico is found to have been shot in the butt
- against the law to shoot a person whose back is shown to you
- agents were not supposed to pursue the suspect as that needed supervisor's approval
- agents given at least a 10 year jail sentence (conviction for discharging a firearm in relation to a crime of violence has an automatic 10-year sentence)

[Ron Paul Fan]

I agree 100% with Ron Paul. They should be pardoned.

[Delaware]

Since when do foreigners get our constitutional rights?

[SeanEdwards]

"Some guy"? Of course, if by "some guy" you mean an illegally crossing drug dealer who appeared to have a gun and engaged in a bloody struggle with Compean, than yeah, you've got a piece of the story that makes the case as to why they should be pardoned.

They didn't report the shooting. They tried to hide evidence. It doesn't matter who the victim was, or what he was doing or had done.

Cops that shoot people, then lie about it, and hide evidence of the shooting are criminals.

[daikonv]

in the interest of justice, the two should be pardoned. its retarded that they're being railroaded.

[Spike Kojima]

They shot an illegal border crossing Drug dealer.

Two things that should not be illegal in the first place.

[fortilite]

I'd pardon them too. Although they could be guilty, I think it would be best to play it safe.

[daikonv]

i didnt include that they shot a drug dealer because it was unknown to both agents at the time. it wasn't known until afterwards. regardless, they should not be punished for doing their job.

[recess]

Since when do foreigners get our constitutional rights?

Our rights do not come from any government

[sparebulb]

Ramos and Compean, the border agents who shot some guy in the back and then lied and tried to cover it up.

SeanEdwards is the same guy that sticks up for the cops tazing citizens at will. To turn around and condemn Ramos and Compean proves that SeanEdwards is an anti-Ron Paul insurgent ass-clown and should be shunned from interacting with real patriot lovers of freedom and Ron Paul.

[jenninlouisiana]

And didn't Paul say something about mandatory minimums.

I think his point was: they have served time in jail. The mandatory minimums that congress enacted keeps them in jail.

[FireofLiberty]

They didn't report the shooting. They tried to hide evidence. It doesn't matter who the victim was, or what he was doing or had done.

Cops that shoot people, then lie about it, and hide evidence of the shooting are criminals.

20 years for failing to report that they shot a drug dealing illegal crosser, who inflicted injury on one of them, in the ass even though they didn't think they had hit him being he kept running.

You have a funny definition of "justice."

[pcosmar]

This is relivent.



Congressman Culbertson demands resignations of top officials who lied about and railroaded Border Patrol Agents.
by William F. Jasper
February 7, 2007


"You Lied To Me and You Lied To All Of Us."
Congress furious over Administration lies. Today Rep. John Culbertson (R-Texas) called for the resignation of top Department of Homeland Security (DHS) officials who had lied previously to Members of Congress about Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean.
The two agents are now in prison on trumped-up charges and fabricated "evidence." The matter of official deception came to a head yesterday during a hearing of the Homeland Security Subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee, when DHS Inspector General Richard L. Skinner admitted that his office had deceived Congress when it said it had evidence proving that Agents Ramos and Compean were guilty of serious felonious acts and that both agents had admitted to knowingly shooting an unarmed suspect. During a briefing on the Ramos/Compean case for Rep. Culbertson and three other Congressmen on September 28, 2006, the DHS Deputy Inspector General and Assistant Inspector General had claimed that they had documentary evidence, including admissions from the two agents, showing that the agents had engaged in serious felonious activity.
As reported by Sam Antonio in the current cover story for The New American (" Punished For Doing Their Job"), the DHS officials claimed that Ramos and Compean admitted that they had knowingly shot an unarmed suspect. However, both agents say they never admitted to any such thing. They both insist that the suspect (veteran drug smuggler Osbaldo Aldrete-Davila), who resisted arrest and scuffled with Compean, turned several times as he ran toward the Mexican border and aimed at them with what appeared to be a gun. The DHS officials also told the Congressmen that the two agents had made statements on the day of the attempted arrest of Aldrete-Davila that they "wanted to shoot a Mexican" — which would be evidence of conspiracy.
Additionally, the DHS officials claimed that Ramos and Compean:

* Stated at the time of their interrogation that they did NOT believe the suspect was a threat to them at the time of the shooting.
* Were belligerent to investigators.
* Destroyed evidence and lied to investigators.

The DHS officials promised that they would deliver evidence to the Congressmen backing up these charges. They never did, despite repeated requests from the Congressmen over the past four months. When DHS Inspector General Richard Skinner was finally brought before the subcommittee on February 6 and put under oath, he confessed that DHS had no such evidence. However, he tried to characterize the deception, lies, fabrication, and stonewalling as a "mistake."
An angry Rep. Culbertson was not buying that. "You lied to me and you lied to all of us," he charged. Below is Rep. Culbertson's February 7 statement calling for the resignation of Mr. Skinner and his subordinates who lied to Congress:

Richard Skinner admitted yesterday under oath that his top deputies gave Members of Congress false information painting Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean as rogue cops who were not in fear for their lives and who were 'out to shoot Mexicans'.
In my opinion, this false information was given to Members of Congress to throw us off the scent and cover-up what appears to be an unjust criminal prosecution of two U.S. law enforcement officers whose job was protecting our country's borders from criminals and terrorists.
Today I am calling for the resignation of the Inspector General of the Department of Homeland Security and the investigators who lied to us.
So far it looks to me like Agents Ramos and Compean may not have followed proper procedure following the shooting, which at most should have resulted in their suspension from the force, but not criminal prosecution.
At a time when Homeland Security has left our borders largely undefended and deployed national guardsman whose 'standard operating procedure' is 'to retreat' when confronted with armed criminals, the unjust prosecution of Agents Ramos and Compean weakens border security by discouraging all U.S. law enforcement officers from drawing their weapons in self-defense or in the defense of our nation.
Our highest priority in the War on Terror is to secure our borders. These two agents need to be pardoned and we need to reassure our brave Border Patrol agents and law enforcement officers that we support them and want them to feel free to use their best judgment and whatever force they think is necessary to protect America.

Not only should these DHS officials resign (or be fired), they should also be prosecuted for lying to Congress, and for falsely prosecuting Ramos and Compean with fabricated evidence. Then the same searchlight should be turned on the Department of Justice, especially on U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton and federal prosecutor Debra Kanof, who knowingly used false evidence to railroad the two agents into prison.
A pardon for Agents Ramos and Compean is all the more urgent now, after the assault upon Agent Ramos in prison on February 3 by illegal alien inmates. Ramos was severely beaten and kicked by a gang of inmates who cursed and insulted him in Spanish. Ramos and his family, understandably, fear for his life. Congressmen and congressional staff contacted on February 7 told The New American that pressure is building — from the public and from Congress — for a pardon. According to these sources on the Hill, the Bush White House, which has previously shown little interest in pardoning the two agents, is now being forced by public opinion and rebellion within Republican ranks to give serious consideration to the matter.

[FireofLiberty]

Two things that should not be illegal in the first place.

Maybe so, at least the drug part I agree with, but are you going to condemn them for doing their job?

[Delaware]

Our rights do not come from any government

Lol you got me there

[lnieves]

Can we all agree though that if there were a border fence this wouldn't have happened in the first place?

...and if there were no war on drugs either. The guy was transporting marijuana.

[SeanEdwards]

And didn't Paul say something about mandatory minimums.

I think his point was: they have served time in jail. The mandatory minimums that congress enacted keeps them in jail.

Yes he did, and that is relevant. I agree that mandatory minimum sentences are wrong. I'd even be inclined to agree that the specific sentence for these two border agents was excessive. But I think they were guilty as hell, and they surely don't belong in a position of authority with badges and guns.

Trying to pretend that border agents should receive a commendation for shooting suspects and then covering up their involvement is asinine.

[jesshwarren]

They where doing there job. PARDON THEM

[SeanEdwards]

They where doing there job. PARDON THEM

It wasn't their job to shoot people and then lie about it, and remove shell casings from the scene.

[driller80545]

They abused there power and didn't follow protocol. They shot an unarmed man that they knew was unarmed, and then lied and tried to cover it up. They should have been prosecuted, but not to the extent that they were. At least they will never be in any positions of authority again. They are not professionals.

[SeanEdwards]

Shoo troll.

+ Insulting or personally attacking other users is not allowed by any member. There is very little tolerance for violations, particular for new members. Reason: Insults lead to relational which often result in disruption, which dilute the resources of members and the intent of the forum.

[SeanEdwards]

They abused there power and didn't follow protocol. They shot an unarmed man that they knew was unarmed, and then lied and tried to cover it up. They should have been prosecuted, but not to the extent that they were. At least they will never be in any positions of authority again. They are not professionals.

+1

[SeanEdwards]

Sean is afraid of girls.

+ Insulting or personally attacking other users is not allowed by any member. There is very little tolerance for violations, particular for new members. Reason: Insults lead to relational which often result in disruption, which dilute the resources of members and the intent of the forum.

[jenninlouisiana]

Sean, I'm curious to know if you are in agreement that they have served enough time for this?

[evandi]

Sean is afraid of girls.

SeanEdward's response to what most people considered a suicide attempt by UtahApocalypse was "can I have your stuff".

Amazing, though there's no evidence he knew that UtahApocalypse didn't want to kill himself.

SeanEdwards is a sick human being.

[kotetu]

From what I understand, there have been 14 incidents where Border Patrol agents discharged their weapons, including 4 or more where the suspects died. In each case, the agents filed full reports, siting what had happened and why they felt they were justified in firing, that they were in fear of harm, etc, and the evidence was reviewed by the prosecutor and by grand juries (in some cases), and all of the other agents were found to have behaved appropriately.

The two mentioned were given a jury trial in a border town, where border issues and illegal immigration are very important. I cannot understand how any jury of their peers from a border town would convict them unless they were guilty of the alleged cover up.

Perhaps there is more evidence that need to see. However, the fact that a group of citizens from a border town convicted them is pretty damning to me.

As to the Mexican smuggler, I say if the guy shows up in court trying to get money, we arrest him and prosecute him. He got immunity in the criminal trial, but as soon as he shows up for a civil trial, says "I was driving this truck full of pot across the border, when all of the sudden.." that is the point where we draw the line. I wonder if we can arrest his attorney too.

[SeanEdwards]

Sean, I'm curious to know if you are in agreement that they have served enough time for this?

Yeah I think so.

[Sergeant Brother]

Two things that should not be illegal in the first place.

I agree about marijuana being illegal, but we need borders and some limitation on immigration. A country without borders is no country at all.

I agree with Ron Paul, these men should be freed. I consider them to be political prisoners - their stiff penalties used to make an example of them and to show the world that the interests of Mexico takle precidence over United States laws, sovereignty, and citizens.

[Johncjackson]

They didn't report the shooting. They tried to hide evidence. It doesn't matter who the victim was, or what he was doing or had done.

Cops that shoot people, then lie about it, and hide evidence of the shooting are criminals.

Very True.

I am a libertarian. I know a lot of other RP supporters are not, and fall into the more "extreme right" border xenophobe? pseudo-"law and order" crowd. Thats OK.

Earlier it was stated that 1. he was a DRUG DEALER and 2. "'illegal"- both irrelevant as neither of those things would be a major crime in a free society. At most misdemeanors. A LOT of RP supporters dont care if someone uses or sells drugs. A lot of also dont care that much about something that is at worst a non-violent trespass in 99% of cases.

If someone trespassed on my property, I would defend it. But I wouldnt shoot someone in the back to kill. Make sense? If he presented an imminent threat ( hmmmmmmmmm, sound familiar? islamo-terrorists arent an imminent threat, but Mescans who just want to particpate in our economy are? Interesting.....) to me or my family- shoot to kill. Being another race/citizenship status and having an occupation I dont like is not enough reason.

One of the biggest issues, IMHO, for libertarians is the out of control police state. Where its considered OK to tase people for speeding, break into houses in riot gear and beat up Grandma and shoot her dog, burn family pets alive over speeding tickets, get the wrong house in a SWAT raid and then plant evidence to cover tracks when citizens are murdered. You know, all these little reported incidents that happen every day.

It is wrong for our public employees to murder ANY human being, citizen or not. Regardless of occupation, race, nationality, citizen status,etc. We dont need cops, border agents, or whoever, running around acting as police, prosecutor, judge, juror, and executioner.

IF they acted in DEFENSE, that is one thing. But all the people arguing that it is OK to murder someone for simply being "illegal" ( whatever that means, seriously) or being a drug dealer, you are worse than GWB. And you are part of the problem. Surprised you dont support Giuliani. His thugs murdered and sodomized innocent people- but it was OK because some of them have juvenile arrests or might have had a joint. Same type of moral justification going on here.

[FireofLiberty]

One of the two was bloodied by the guy and the other one said he thought he had a gun. I say that's a pretty strong argument for acting in defense.

And he didn't get murdered, he just got shot in the ass.

[dawnbt]

Ramos and Compean should be freed, IMO.

I agree. They were defending our border. They are told to capture smugglers, then the government retracts their detail stating they should have let them go. Come on. The only reason the government pulled this stunt is to keep peace with the Mexican government. Let's not forget the North American Union!! They were railroaded and should be freed immediately!

[dawnbt]

Since when do foreigners get our constitutional rights?

Amen! Let's not forget! This is the "WAR" on Drugs! They are reserves on our border. Railroad!!!

[dawnbt]

This is relivent.

Of course the people behind the coverup is the Department of Homeland Security! That is there job! To strip Americans of their liberty, and create crimes that don't exist in order to further the agenda of the Administration! Getting rid of Homeland Security looks better and better everyday!

[dawnbt]

...and if there were no war on drugs either. The guy was transporting marijuana.

Good point!!

[dawnbt]

Sean, I'm curious to know if you are in agreement that they have served enough time for this?

Sean, did you read about the Department of Homeland Security cover-up? Do you still think should be in prison?

[driller80545]

The guy was not smuggling at the time of the shooting. He was caught later smuggling. He did not attack the officers, but tried to run. He was being detained for being an illegal. He should have been arrested and deported at the least, but not shot.

[Taco John]

I don't know enough about the sitution, but I'd hope that Dr. Paul pardons Bernard Nothaus.

[SeanEdwards]

Sean, did you read about the Department of Homeland Security cover-up? Do you still think should be in prison?

What cover-up?

I've seen some people crying about the fact that the victim's criminal record was excluded from the trial. Is that what you are calling a cover-up?

[noztnac]

This is exactly what Glenn Beck had in mind. You guys are now not promoting Paul but bickering amongst yourselves over conspiracy theories about some incident that none of us have the facts on. Glenn Beck knows his audience. He's not as dumb as I thought he was.

[MS0453]

Amen! Let's not forget! This is the "WAR" on Drugs! They are reserves on our border. Railroad!!!

You're kidding, right?

[idiom]

RP said they should be pardoned as they have already served a year and the prosecutor looked dodgy.

[MikeStanart]

Two things that should not be illegal in the first place.


Border agents are not there to interpret the law. They are there to ENFORCE the law. They were doing their job.

You can't throw someone in jail for doing their job.

[MS0453]

Border agents are not there to interpret the law. They are there to ENFORCE the law. They were doing their job.

You can't throw someone in jail for doing their job.

If there was no one to enforce bad laws, would they exist?

[jake]

I would agree with Ron Paul, they should only be charged for the attempted cover up/altering of the scene. By shooting the illegal, they were doing their job based on my understanding of the specific situation.

[Original_Intent]

Regardless of wether they committed a crime or not ( I think they did obviously if they lied and covered up evidence) the miscarriage of justice was with 10 years being tacked on due to USE OF A FIREARM IN THE COMMISSION OF A CRIME.

They have already served the other part of their sentence, the fact that they got 10 additional years for using a firearm is insane. Ift hey did indeed lie and cover up, the crime was not that they shot the guy, it is that they didn't report it and removed evidence.

[Blue_Merle]

Bump. This may become relevant due to recent events.