iowa forum-- why are christians against illegal immigration

[atilla]

i've been watching the iowa forum. the christian groups question #2 is about immigration, building a fence, id cards and all that.

why is a christian group against immigration? is it a moral issue? is it in the bible? now i do know the catholics have been supporting illegal immigration, so are the protestants making it an issue to be anti-catholic?

i've actually read the bible, i don't see anything about immigration. (other than the jews illegally immigrating from egypt to palestine :eek: )

so why is this a christian issue?

[DavyDuke17]

I don't think it has anything to do with Christianity, but rather that it is illegal.

[atilla]

I don't think it has anything to do with Christianity, but rather that it is illegal.
well, they are asking for more than enforcing the law, they are asking for new programs. tancredo brought up that he would probably be the only one of the candidates who would support actuall deportation of all the millions of illegals in country now. but they didn't ask about enforcing the law, they want new systems.

it just seems to me to have nothing to do with cristianity. if it were an issue of enforcing laws that many people break then why didn't they ask about busting dope smokers. i know there are more potheads in the U.S. than illegal aliens.

[Man from La Mancha]

well, they are asking for more than enforcing the law, they are asking for new programs. tancredo brought up that he would probably be the only one of the candidates who would support actuall deportation of all the millions of illegals in country now. but they didn't ask about enforcing the law, they want new systems.

it just seems to me to have nothing to do with cristianity. if it were an issue of enforcing laws that many people break then why didn't they ask about busting dope smokers. i know there are more potheads in the U.S. than illegal aliens.

Maybe pot smokers aren't killing 25 people day, bankrupting our schools and hospitals, bringing deadly diseases, raping women, forming gangs, cutting wages by being scab labor, have I forgotten anything

[ChrisM]

Catholics don't support illegal immigration. The USCCB just wants to make it so that refugees fleeing the economic crises can be allowed in. They don't think everybody should be allowed in, because that creates obvious problems.

[BuckeyeDad]

i've been watching the iowa forum. the christian groups question #2 is about immigration, building a fence, id cards and all that.

why is a christian group against immigration? is it a moral issue? is it in the bible? now i do know the catholics have been supporting illegal immigration, so are the protestants making it an issue to be anti-catholic?

i've actually read the bible, i don't see anything about immigration. (other than the jews illegally immigrating from egypt to palestine :eek: )

so why is this a christian issue?

The Bible is not against "immigration" - if done properly. Understand the definitions of sojourner, stranger, and alien, when read in the Old Testament.

John 10:1 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

There is no punishment for dope smoking in the Bible, neither is there for smoking or drinking. These in and of themselves are not sins. However, the Bible clearly states you should not be drunk, or anything that would take you out of your conscience moral mind, to keep you from doing something you otherwise would not do. The Bible does not care if you were drunk when you commited a sin - your punishment for that sin is the same regardless.

[ChooseLiberty]

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that legal citizens are required to obey all the laws of the land, while the illegals get away with pretty much whatever.

Besides letting in "economic refugees" will never work.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265

[ChrisM]

The Bible is not against "immigration" - if done properly. Understand the definitions of sojourner, stranger, and alien, when read in the Old Testament.

John 10:1 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

There is no punishment for dope smoking in the Bible, neither is there for smoking or drinking. These in and of themselves are not sins. However, the Bible clearly states you should not be drunk, or anything that would take you out of your conscience moral mind, to keep you from doing something you otherwise would not do. The Bible does not care if you were drunk when you commited a sin - your punishment for that sin is the same regardless.
"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber." - NIV

Even though the NIV is not a translation, I prefer it for casual circumstances because of its readability (not for actual study, of course). It's easier to understand this way.

Even still, I think you are taking this verse out of context. John 10 is talking about the legitimacy of Jesus alone and is the basis for the doctrine of sensus fidei. I don't think this verse was inspired with the intent of directing people on illegal immigration.

[atilla]

Maybe pot smokers aren't killing 25 people day, bankrupting our schools and hospitals, bringing deadly diseases, raping women, forming gangs, cutting wages by being scab labor, have I forgotten anything

again, that seems like a law enforcement issue, not a christian moral issue. why didn't the christian group ask the candidates about the "just war theory"?

why christians? if this were a conservative group i would expect them to ask about immigration since it seems to be the biggest conservative issue right now, but they are a christian group not a conservative group.

any christians here know why a christian group is making immigration one of their biggest issues? why arn't they asking about new laws against pornography? why immigration?

maybe what i'm getting at is that this is not a "true" christian group, who would be asking questions about moral issues and saving souls for jesus. this is just a right-wing psuedo-conservative psuedo-christian group using the cloak of the bible and jesus and god but being infact just sunday social club members.

(from ex-christian pastor)

[ChrisM]

again, that seems like a law enforcement issue, not a christian moral issue. why didn't the christian group ask the candidates about the "just war theory"?

why christians? if this were a conservative group i would expect them to ask about immigration since it seems to be the biggest conservative issue right now, but they are a christian group not a conservative group.

any christians here know why a christian group is making immigration one of their biggest issues? why arn't they asking about new laws against pornography? why immigration?

maybe what i'm getting at is that this is not a "true" christian group, who would be asking questions about moral issues and saving souls for jesus. this is just a right-wing psuedo-conservative psuedo-christian group using the cloak of the bible and jesus and god but being infact just sunday social club members.

(from ex-christian pastor)
You hit my opinion right on the spot. My favorite quote: "Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."

If this is a true Christian group legitimately concerned about the world, then why aren't the issues that are most un-Christianlike coming into the foreground?

Just War Theory? Illegal immigration? Economic and political refugees? Domestic poverty? Religious freedom?

ChooseLiberty:
I watched that video and the numbers were interesting, but I didn't quite agree with everything he had to say. It was enlightening nevertheless. Concerning specifically his opinion on the economic asylum purpose of immigration, I believe that he is correct when he says that if we are concerned with the plight of the third world, we should fix it in the third world instead of bringing the third world population into the first world.

However, that is not being done. As long as false free trade agreements and the military industrial complex continue to benefit unfairly at the expense of the common person for whom companies should be providing legitimate services, and we purposefully perpetuate and seed these social structures through our legislative actions, then we should be willing to accept the economic consequences of that, including immigration fervor.

In short, we are causing much of the economic plight south of the border. Although there are many other causes beyond our control, we cannot fail to recognize the role that NAFTA, CAFTA, and the American military industrial complex plays in the poor economic environment in the areas from which many immigrants are coming.

[Man from La Mancha]

again, that seems like a law enforcement issue, not a christian moral issue. why didn't the christian group ask the candidates about the "just war theory"?

why christians? if this were a conservative group i would expect them to ask about immigration since it seems to be the biggest conservative issue right now, but they are a christian group not a conservative group.

any christians here know why a christian group is making immigration one of their biggest issues? why arn't they asking about new laws against pornography? why immigration?

maybe what i'm getting at is that this is not a "true" christian group, who would be asking questions about moral issues and saving souls for jesus. this is just a right-wing psuedo-conservative psuedo-christian group using the cloak of the bible and jesus and god but being infact just sunday social club members.

(from ex-christian pastor)

People have multiple viewpoints.

[ChrisM]

People have multiple viewpoints.
But only one is correct. We hope that ours is correct and lobby in favor of our opinion, but we can only claim a valid stake to such if our conscience is truly formed and our opinions are not uneducated. Even still, we all must maintain an open mind to new thoughts, trusting a well-formed conscience (Holy Spirit/sensus fidei, for the Christians) to guide us correctly while still realizing that not one of us has perfect knowledge.

[Carl]

What's your point atilla? Why so much concern? Do you believe that Christians should stick to only Christian concerns? Why would you think that a Christian wouldn't be concerned about an invasion of unrepentant, parasitic socialist lawbreakers, freeloaders, gang members, murderers, rapist and thieves?


.

[ChrisM]

What's your point atilla? Why so much concern? Do you believe that Christians should stick to only Christian concerns? Why would you think that a Christian wouldn't be concerned about an invasion of unrepentant, parasitic socialist lawbreakers, freeloaders, gang members, murderers, rapist and thieves?


.
I don't believe that the topic-starter meant that illegal immigration is not a Christian issue, nor do I think he meant that Christians should be concerned only with Christian issues. Rather, I believe he meant that a Christian organization should be concerned with more than just "an invasion of unrepentant, parasitic socialist lawbreakers, freeloaders, gang members, murderers, rapist and thieves." Certainly, a war that is killing thousands of people would move more?

[Man from La Mancha]

But only one is correct. We hope that ours is correct and lobby in favor of our opinion, but we can only claim a valid stake to such if our conscience is truly formed and our opinions are not uneducated. Even still, we all must maintain an open mind to new thoughts, trusting a well-formed conscience (Holy Spirit/sensus fidei, for the Christians) to guide us correctly while still realizing that not one of us has perfect knowledge.


Well lets see

Not to kill

Not to steal

Two opinions but is one wrong?

[ChrisM]

Well lets see

Not to kill

Not to steal

Two opinions but is one wrong?
Excuse me? These aren't mutually exclusive statements, so my logic doesn't apply here. Of course they are both wrong.

[ChooseLiberty]

Ok. There are a lot of problems. That still doesn't mean the US can "save" even a few third worlders as shown in the film. The US will presently be swamped and a third world itself. How will that help anyone?

Mexico for instance isn't that poor. The richest man in the world is now a Mexican. Why should the US continue to take all Mexican lower class if Mexico can't even fix itself and the Catholic Church encourages out of control reproduction rates in Mexico. They can breed faster than the US or any other country can accept the overflow. And that's just Mexico.

Personally, I think it's time the Mexicans had Ron Paul type revolution and change some of the laws that allow the same few families to control the country that have controlled it since the Spanish conquest. Then stop overpopulating Mexico. There's obviously a problem.



ChooseLiberty:
I watched that video and the numbers were interesting, but I didn't quite agree with everything he had to say. It was enlightening nevertheless. Concerning specifically his opinion on the economic asylum purpose of immigration, I believe that he is correct when he says that if we are concerned with the plight of the third world, we should fix it in the third world instead of bringing the third world population into the first world.

However, that is not being done. As long as false free trade agreements and the military industrial complex continue to benefit unfairly at the expense of the common person for whom companies should be providing legitimate services, and we purposefully perpetuate and seed these social structures through our legislative actions, then we should be willing to accept the economic consequences of that, including immigration fervor.

In short, we are causing much of the economic plight south of the border. Although there are many other causes beyond our control, we cannot fail to recognize the role that NAFTA, CAFTA, and the American military industrial complex plays in the poor economic environment in the areas from which many immigrants are coming.

[Ira Aten]

We are against "illegal" immigration, due to the fact that "illegal" immigration is not "legal."

[jd603]

Please stop mangling illegal immigration with LEGAL immigration, this is what a number of liberals are doing right now and its wrong. Nobody is against LEGAL immigration, this country was founded on that... it's ILLEGAL immigration that hurts us the most.

Also, there's an underlying agenda by many in Washington for not securing the borders, this is for the SPP / NAU and it is VERY real. This is all being done without consent by congress or the American people.



i've been watching the iowa forum. the christian groups question #2 is about immigration, building a fence, id cards and all that.

why is a christian group against immigration? is it a moral issue? is it in the bible? now i do know the catholics have been supporting illegal immigration, so are the protestants making it an issue to be anti-catholic?

i've actually read the bible, i don't see anything about immigration. (other than the jews illegally immigrating from egypt to palestine :eek: )

so why is this a christian issue?

[shrugged0106]

On this issue, the enemy is winning.

Divide and Conquer

[pazzo83]

Hold on a second folks, most "ILLEGAL" immigrants are just coming over here because there is a preceived demand for labor and they are coming from a country where most areas look like bombs have gone off (drive around Mexico and you'll see what I mean). The REAL problem here is businesses and corporations that hire illegals at a near slave-wage, which detracts from our own labor force. Another problem is the obscenely complicated and expensive 'legal' means to entrance into the US. We can't let everybody in, of course not, but people don't need to be waiting some 20 or 30 years just to get a visa to work here. That is absurd.

[Lord Xar]

well, they are asking for more than enforcing the law, they are asking for new programs. tancredo brought up that he would probably be the only one of the candidates who would support actuall deportation of all the millions of illegals in country now. but they didn't ask about enforcing the law, they want new systems.

it just seems to me to have nothing to do with cristianity. if it were an issue of enforcing laws that many people break then why didn't they ask about busting dope smokers. i know there are more potheads in the U.S. than illegal aliens.

This is one of the arguments to allow illegal immigration. "Well people are committing crimes all the time.." The point is that this illegal, and you cannot disparage it because other people smoke pot, or do other crimes. I bet if there were tens of millions of pot smokers walking around smoking pot and doing equally harmful things to americans value and cultural system, we also be up in arms. - agreeably, pot smoking is minor.

Catholics want the illegals because of donations/converts.. nothing more. Hispanics are great catholics and do not question. They are just looking to fill their ranks.

There are SOOOOOOOOOOOOO many things wrong with illegal immigration and only a few that are right.

[Lord Xar]

Hold on a second folks, most "ILLEGAL" immigrants are just coming over here because there is a preceived demand for labor and they are coming from a country where most areas look like bombs have gone off (drive around Mexico and you'll see what I mean). The REAL problem here is businesses and corporations that hire illegals at a near slave-wage, which detracts from our own labor force. Another problem is the obscenely complicated and expensive 'legal' means to entrance into the US. We can't let everybody in, of course not, but people don't need to be waiting some 20 or 30 years just to get a visa to work here. That is absurd.

I agree. that is why the solution is a multi-pronged one.

1. Secure the border
2. ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAWS
3. Demand proof of legal status and then fund a system to legitimately check

I mean, I don't know all the rules and best practices to enforce them..

Again, here is the argument... they only come because of jobs. That is not a reason to break the law. We both know we can create a multitude of analogies that would refute your claim.

I do agree that corporations and business are using this slave labour.. but this is one thing we need to deal with. NOT granting amnesty and creating the cycle ALL OVER AGAIN... do you know reagans amnesty was 'suppose' to be the last one.

We are being overrun and whatever the cause, they both need to stop. I am under the conclusion now that these 'special interests', these 'advocacy groups', these 'big business' are global in thought.. they DO NOT care about America. They care about votes, money, globaliszation, power.... illegal immigration, NAU, etc.. are all symptoms and reasons for something big....

[Roxi]

and most of our forefathers were pot smokers, not illegal aliens

[nayjevin]

I went by a church today. On the big sign out front: "SUNDAY'S SERMON: FOREIGNERS IN OUR MIDST"

I nearly retched lunch. When I'm on these forums, I have hope for us, but when I'm out there... sometimes...

[Original_Intent]

I think I can answer the question about why they want the national ID card.

1st, I gotta let you know my belief so you can take what I say in context. I am a Christian, and I seriously believe that something like this national ID chip or something like it is what is referred to in Revelations as "the mark of the beast".
AND I am 100% against it, and you would think anyone else who believed this would also be against it.

The fact is, there are a lot of pre-trib rapture folks that do blieve it to be the mark of the beast and they are all FOR it because they believe that it will thereby fulfil revelation and bring them one step closer to The Rapture. That is why I think some Christian groups are asking about these things and favoring them.

Just my opinion.

[Roxi]

The fact is, there are a lot of pre-trib rapture folks that do blieve it to be the mark of the beast and they are all FOR it because they believe that it will thereby fulfil revelation and bring them one step closer to The Rapture. That is why I think some Christian groups are asking about these things and favoring them.


that depends is a 666 somewhere in the patent number? jk:D