Issue: Social: Ron Paul's views on the Space Race

[STA654]

Most Americans take great pride and a sense of awe when they view the photos of men walking upon the surface of the moon.

However the Space Race was notoriously expensive, and was called by many as a waste of taxpayer dollars.

If Ron Paul was a congressman during the space race, what do you think his position on the space race would have been? Let the free market take care of it?

[Wyurm]

look what happens when you let the market handle space issues: http://www.xprize.org/

Ron Paul has it right.

[STA654]

Yes, good point, but we are talking in the 1950s and 1960s, long before the Personal Computer revolution, which is a big part in making private space exploration a reality.

[RPR-omaha]

I really don't this is that important. Ron Paul wasn't in Congress during the space race. I think that Ron Paul would keep NASA because sooner or later space will be militarized. Ron Paul would make sure that other companies were allowed to compete with NASA. He might make big cuts in space exploration but all this is pure speculation on my part.

[ChrisM]

NASA is one of the largest expenses in the budget. It would probably undergo serious cuts, especially since its contributions aren't extremely important considering their costs. Why did we have to shoot a rocket at a comet, again?

[Wyurm]

NASA is one of the largest expenses in the budget. It would probably undergo serious cuts, especially since its contributions aren't extremely important considering their costs. Why did we have to shoot a rocket at a comet, again?

to collect comet dust.

[richard1984]

I'd rather build space ships than war machines.

[Matt Collins]

NASA should be abolished and folded back into the military as part of our defense (ICBMs still exist). Exploration of space should be done under a defensive strategy unless the private sector wishes to compete in which case it's free to do so.


The Apollo program was one of the few government programs in which provided a HUGE payoff on the initial investment. The technology we received from the US space program is now a part of our everyday life. But again, it should be part of military exploration and defense, not a civil organization.

[Mesogen]

Here's where I part from the mainstream Ron Paul supporter.

There is no profit motive to exploring space and there won't be for a long time, except maybe tourism. But I feel like space exploration is totally necessary to benefit future generations. (The same goes for a lot of scientific research). I believe the government has a crucial role here.

Exploration and research are vital to the overall "human endeavor," and in this area there is a great need for pooled resources.

The robotic planetary missions overall in the past 20-30 years have been a resounding success and cost way less than the money pit called the space shuttle.


Yes, good point, but we are talking in the 1950s and 1960s, long before the Personal Computer revolution, which is a big part in making private space exploration a reality.

Please explain this.

What would make it a reality is a reliable return mechanism that didn't center on braking from orbital velocity by burning through the atmosphere. This technology does not exist.


NASA is one of the largest expenses in the budget. It would probably undergo serious cuts, especially since its contributions aren't extremely important considering their costs. Why did we have to shoot a rocket at a comet, again?

To help explain the origins and development of the solar system.

Whether you think so or not, this is very important. Not everything is about profit.


I'm not saying that NASA couldn't use an overhaul. There is PLENTY of waste, but to scrap it entirely would be foolish.

[Matt Collins]

NASA is one of the largest expenses in the budget. It would probably undergo serious cuts, especially since its contributions aren't extremely important considering their costs. Why did we have to shoot a rocket at a comet, again?Obviously you have never seen the US budget. NASA gets less then 1/2 of 1 penny out of every dollar that goes to Washington. To say that it's one of the largest expenses in the budget is a very ignorant statement.

Social programs are the largest with the military coming in #2.


http://www.icdr.us/atreportweb/images/chart5.jpg (http://www.icdr.us/atreportweb/images/chart5.jpg)

[ChrisM]

Obviously you have never seen the US budget. NASA gets less then 1/2 of 1 penny out of every dollar that goes to Washington. To say that it's one of the largest expenses in the budget is a very ignorant statement.

Social programs are the largest with the military coming in #2.


I was assuming we all here knew that social and defense spending was in a far first, but I should also have known what they say about assuming... Sorry about that.

[Gee]

Whether you think so or not, this is very important. Not everything is about profit.
More accurately, not everything is about money. People place different values on different things. The "profit" one gains from space exploration might be greater in value to that individual than a week's pay - or it might not. Its up to the individual. That is why the only moral way to conduct space exploration which does not generate profit is to fund it with donations, and not thievery.

Though I'd agree that military spending is justifiable, if there is a need for it (I really think there is a limit to sane defense spending).

[Mesogen]

More accurately, not everything is about money. People place different values on different things. The "profit" one gains from space exploration might be greater in value to that individual than a week's pay - or it might not. Its up to the individual. That is why the only moral way to conduct space exploration which does not generate profit is to fund it with donations, and not thievery.

Though I'd agree that military spending is justifiable, if there is a need for it (I really think there is a limit to sane defense spending).

But we should fund our military through thievery? Or donations?

[kimosabi]

At the speed the planet is getting wiped out, we should be getting permanent space colony's ASAP.

[ChrisM]

At the speed the planet is getting wiped out, we should be getting permanent space colony's ASAP.
Or we could fix the planet.

I could argue that at the speed the third world is getting wiped out, the third world population should be immigrating to the first world ASAP. Or we could fix the third world.

[Kuldebar]

Privatize space...

Space exploration is too important to be yet another government program.


KINGS OF THE
HIGH FRONTIER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_the_High_Frontier)

http://www.bereshith.com/frontier.htm

http://www.nuketown.com/node/2011


Three-time Prometheus Award winner Victor Koman (Millennium: Weeds), who sicced an assassin on God in The Jehovah Contract and imploded the abortion controversy in Solomon's Knife, brings us his epic novel of humanity's next stage of evolution: the jump into Space.

Tammy Reis, beautiful NASA Space Shuttle commander, works for the most highly funded, technologically advanced space program in the world. So why do nightmares of the Challenger disaster haunt her sleep? And why is NASA incapable of recapturing the stunning successes it once achieved?

Visionary spacecraft designer Gerry Cooper struggles at his tiny rocket company in the Mojave Desert. Who in the world wants him stopped -- or dead?

One-armed billionaire playboy Laurence Poubelle hopes to build his own orbital X-15. Can his keen marketing skills overcome a nation hostile to wealth and contemptuous of adventure?

Meanwhile, the horror of the Challenger tragedy threatens to repeat itself on the launch pad at Cape Canaveral. Standing at ground zero, NASA engineer Jack Lundy races the countdown to prevent the deadliest space disaster of all.

While bureaucrats and businessmen publicly battle for the high ground, a young descendant of the legendary Davy Crockett secretly constructs a single-stage-to-orbit rocket deep inside an abandoned warehouse in the South Bronx. Will he and his NYU classmates survive when NORAD detects the launch that blows the lid off the greatest conspiracy in the history of mankind?

Tammy Reis -- stripped of her astronaut wings for defending herself against a congressman's zero-gravity rape -- is recruited by the National Security Agency to infiltrate the stronghold of a er-rich smuggler who schemes to place a massive space station into orbit with a single, spectacular launch. When she discovers the true nature of his secret plan, she faces an impossible choice between duty to her government or freedom from her -- and humanity's -- nightmare.

[SeanEdwards]

Or we could fix the third world.

'Fix', as in neuter? I like it! :D

Seriously though, space technology and exploration is an important part of national defense, which is a Constitutionally authorized role of the Federal government.

In addition, Earth strikes from stellar objects are a threat we should take seriously. We're surrounded by evidence of these devestating events, and for the first time in Human history we have the real potential to be able to do something about these things now. The likelihood of a dinosaur killer hitting in our lifetimes may be small, but it's the kind of thing we'd be wise to get prepared for, just in case.

Lastly, this is freakin priceless right here:

http://seds.org/hst/M16Full.html

[kimosabi]

Or we could fix the planet.

I could argue that at the speed the third world is getting wiped out, the third world population should be immigrating to the first world ASAP. Or we could fix the third world.

The thing that disturbs me the most is these apparent Chemtrails.

If they are spraying stuff into the atmosphere, what the hell are they spreaying, and more importantly, why????

[ChrisM]

The thing that disturbs me the most is these apparent Chemtrails.

If they are spraying stuff into the atmosphere, what the hell are they spreaying, and more importantly, why????
I wouldn't call them apparent chemtrails. So far, the chemtrail theory has about as much credibility as most other theories here.

Is it just me or is Ron Paul a conspiracy theorist magnet? Maybe the theorists are more vocal than the non-theorists...

[SeanEdwards]

, what the hell are they spreaying,

It's monkey sperm.

[Gee]

But we should fund our military through thievery? Or donations?
Under our current constitution, it can be funded by thievery. America is hardly set up for an anarcho-capitalist form of government where all taxes are voluntary exchanges. But at least our constitution is a contract between 3/4ths of the people and the government, and it allows spending for the "general defense".

[angelatc]

Yes, good point, but we are talking in the 1950s and 1960s, long before the Personal Computer revolution, which is a big part in making private space exploration a reality.

I can't find a quote, but I remember reading an article that claimed the original moon missions didn't have as much total computer power as a 1998 laptop had.

No reason to think the private sector couldn't afford computers then either.

But what about the land? If a private firm had made it to the moon first, would they then own the moon?

[PatriotOne]

I wouldn't call them apparent chemtrails. So far, the chemtrail theory has about as much credibility as most other theories here.

Is it just me or is Ron Paul a conspiracy theorist magnet? Maybe the theorists are more vocal than the non-theorists...


They are quite real Chris. Happens in my area 4 or 5 days a week these days. The question isn't if they are doing it anymore, the question is what/why there are doing it. That's where the "theories' come in.

[PatriotOne]

Most Americans take great pride and a sense of awe when they view the photos of men walking upon the surface of the moon.

However the Space Race was notoriously expensive, and was called by many as a waste of taxpayer dollars.

If Ron Paul was a congressman during the space race, what do you think his position on the space race would have been? Let the free market take care of it?

I would hope that Dr. Paul would back Carol Rosin's (President of the Insitute for Cooperation for Space) position on the space program. She wants to get away from "the militarization of space and creation of space weapons" and use the progam for peaceful purposes and to benefit mankind as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Rosin

[ChrisM]

They are quite real Chris. Happens in my area 4 or 5 days a week these days. The question isn't if they are doing it anymore, the question is what/why there are doing it. That's where the "theories' come in.
Contrails that look different from other contrails? Imagine that...

[PatriotOne]

Contrails that look different from other contrails? Imagine that...

???

You don't see a difference between:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/Yekt40/Kennewick%20Chemtrails/TitusCanyon2-m.jpg

versus things like this?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/Yekt40/Kennewick%20Chemtrails/chemtrail10.jpg

[richard1984]

If they are spraying stuff into the atmosphere, what the hell are they spreaying, and more importantly, why????

I've heard about cemtrails before, though I don't remember where. Seems like they were spraying them out west somewhere (like Utah or something...I really don't remember), and supposedly (according to one of the theories) the chemtrails are supposed to affect the weather/climate. So I guess it's kind of like DDT, but for weather instead of insects.

I think it might be an experimental anti-global warming type of thing. (i.e., not good...)

At least, that's what I remember hearing once before a while back. I have researched it, though.

[SeanEdwards]

She wants to get away from "the militarization of space and creation of space weapons" and use the progam for peaceful purposes and to benefit mankind as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Rosin

What, is she some kind of hippy? Let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya? No thanks. We should colonize the moon and turn it into a big orbital death star. :D

[PatriotOne]

What, is she some kind of hippy? Let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya? No thanks. We should colonize the moon and turn it into a big orbital death star. :D

Ummm yeah. Just some hippy nut :rolleyes: :

Dr. Carol Sue Rosin (b. March 29, 1944 in Wilmington, Delaware) is an award-winning educator, author, leading aerospace executive and space and missile defense consultant. She is a former spokesperson for Wernher von Braun and has consulted to a number of companies, organizations, government departments and the intelligence community. She is the current President of the Institute for Cooperation in Space (ICIS) which she co-founded with Alfred Webre. Dr. Rosin has received the support of various prominent individuals such as U.S. Congressman Dennis Kucinich [1][2], and Hon. Paul Hellyer, a former Canadian Minister of National Defence. She is also a witness for The Disclosure Project. [3]

Rest here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_rosin#Space_weapons_consultant

[PatriotOne]

I've heard about cemtrails before, though I don't remember where. Seems like they were spraying them out west somewhere (like Utah or something...I really don't remember), and supposedly (according to one of the theories) the chemtrails are supposed to affect the weather/climate. So I guess it's kind of like DDT, but for weather instead of insects.

I think it might be an experimental anti-global warming type of thing. (i.e., not good...)

At least, that's what I remember hearing once before a while back. I have researched it, though.


It's much bigger than that. This is going on all over the world and has been for more than 10 years now. It's worth your time to do some further research on it.

[richard1984]

I know this is "conspiracy theory" stuff, but I actually first heard of this on the History Channel (I believe--though it may have been the Science Channel or something). Anyway, supposedly there's already a colony or bases--at least "buildings"--on the moon. (here's a youtube clip that shows some of the pictures that were on the TV show I saw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6VYCkcfGco).

I don't know about this, but UFO type things are interesting. There is some really interesting information out there that is hard to deny or explain. I know a lot of people don't even like to consider the possibilities (shunning them as "conspiracies"), but if you're open-minded and honest with yourself, there is a lot of very intriguing phenomena that nobody has been able to explain. And if there is (physical) evidence and information being kept hidden from the public, it sure would be nice to know. This could be a big reason why those in power want to hide--they want to hoard all the cool stuff. Anyway, I’m just being goofy, but still...it is interesting.... And if nothing else, it makes for good fantasy.

(I believe!)

[richard1984]

It's much bigger than that. This is going on all over the world and has been for more than 10 years now. It's worth your time to do some further research on it.

My pleasure! Thank you for the advice/push. I love researching this stuff. ...if only I could get paid to do it.... (seriously)

[SeanEdwards]

I know this is "conspiracy theory" stuff, but I actually first heard of this on the History Channel (I believe--though it may have been the Science Channel or something). Anyway, supposedly there's already a colony or bases--at least "buildings"--on the moon. (here's a youtube clip that shows some of the pictures that were on the TV show I saw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6VYCkcfGco).

I don't know about this, but UFO type things are interesting. There is some really interesting information out there that is hard to deny or explain. I know a lot of people don't even like to consider the possibilities (shunning them as "conspiracies"), but if you're open-minded and honest with yourself, there is a lot of very intriguing phenomena that nobody has been able to explain. And if there is (physical) evidence and information being kept hidden from the public, it sure would be nice to know. This could be a big reason why those in power want to hide--they want to hoard all the cool stuff. Anyway, I’m just being goofy, but still...it is interesting.... And if nothing else, it makes for good fantasy.

(I believe!)

Your youtube link doesn't work.

[Mesogen]

Take out the ) at the end.


How in the world did a thread about the space race turn into a thread about chemtrails and alien moon bases?

[richard1984]

I fixed the link.


How in the world did a thread about the space race turn into a thread about chemtrails and alien moon bases?

Haha! I think I was responding to something someone said about colonizing the moon.

[Mesogen]

I want to see a debate between the people who say we never really landed on the moon and these folks that are saying we discovered alien bases after landing on the moon. Actually, I NEED to see it.

[SeanEdwards]

I want to see a debate between the people who say we never really landed on the moon and these folks that are saying we discovered alien bases after landing on the moon. Actually, I NEED to see it.

Aren't those people one and the same? You want to see a debate where some conspiracy nut talks to himself? LOL! :D

[Natural Citizen]

Ummm yeah. Just some hippy nut :rolleyes: :

Dr. Carol Sue Rosin (b. March 29, 1944 in Wilmington, Delaware) is an award-winning educator, author, leading aerospace executive and space and missile defense consultant. She is a former spokesperson for Wernher von Braun and has consulted to a number of companies, organizations, government departments and the intelligence community. She is the current President of the Institute for Cooperation in Space (ICIS) which she co-founded with Alfred Webre. Dr. Rosin has received the support of various prominent individuals such as U.S. Congressman Dennis Kucinich [1][2], and Hon. Paul Hellyer, a former Canadian Minister of National Defence. She is also a witness for The Disclosure Project. [3]

Rest here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_rosin#Space_weapons_consultant

Russia and the U.S. unite: Former enemies sign agreement to work on nuclear weapons to tackle the danger of ASTEROIDS (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2463153/Russia-U-S-sign-nuclear-agreement-protect-planet-asteroids.html)

[jllundqu]

As a minarchist, I have a dilemma here. I don't see space exploration as a necessary expense, although I do see the great number of benefits it has made to mankind both in terms of our explorer spirit and massive discoveries in technology and our basic understanding of the universe. I would guess, in reference to the OP that Ron Paul would not have supported such programs given his ideological purity. I don't know what I would do.... tough call.

[Natural Citizen]

I would guess, in reference to the OP that Ron Paul would not have supported such programs given his ideological purity. I don't know what I would do.... tough call.



Just comes down to how well we're able to practically envision the gains while putting to rest nonsensical aspects of passed logic and then put it to good use in the political community. Lots of stuff happening regarding the space program but just bumped the thread to add that one bit of relevance to current events. Really just want to see who is paying attention or if any interest exists in this community. If not then there are other places where there are.

Interesting times, for sure.

[jllundqu]

Just comes down to how well we're able to practically envision the gains while putting to rest nonsensical aspects of passed logic and then put it to good use in the political community. Lots of stuff happening regarding the space program but just bumped the thread to add that one bit of relevance to current events. Really just want to see who is paying attention or if any interest exists in this community. If not then there are other places where there are.

Interesting times, for sure.

Yeah... thread derailment sucks. Great thread question though. +rep

[Zippyjuan]

That's OK. It was six and a half years old to begin with.

[Natural Citizen]

That's OK. It was six and a half years old to begin with.

Uh-Uh. It's OK because visionaries carry a compass instead of a calendar, Zip. Is the difference between helping change (in it's truest form)along and watching it pass you by. The future is timeless, Zip.

As well, the one keeping the calendar is almost always the same person who would influence the people to conform to how they did it last time so that they fail to appreciate the idea of looking forward to see another path. And so then the people doom themselves into repeating history.

[Weston White]

I wouldn't call them apparent chemtrails. So far, the chemtrail theory has about as much credibility as most other theories here.

Is it just me or is Ron Paul a conspiracy theorist magnet? Maybe the theorists are more vocal than the non-theorists...

No it has been undoubtedly proven that the U.S. Air Force flies jets around the nation on a daily basis for the sole purpose of laying a chemical cover, the only remaining question is why (e.g., does it involve HAARP experiments, is it to ensure that the short or long range radar tracking of aircraft functions correctly, is it to simply manipulate the weather in an effort to substantiate the warped arguments of the global warming crowd for future legislation to be crafted after enough environmental crises occur, is it a long term test on the molecular manipulation or restructuring of mankind and nature?)

ETA: Goodness gracious that novel sounds like the makings of yet another Austin Power movie.

[Natural Citizen]

Yeah... thread derailment sucks. Great thread question though. +rep

I didn't derail the thread though. Just providing a relevant update to the theoretical "space race". The link I shared provides a monumental bit of information as to where the space program is heading. Probably some of the most important information on the entire site if one were to appreciate it for what it is.

Now, the chemtrail stuff? That's derailing.

Seems like there is this social misconception that it's OK to forget. This notion negates a firm grasp on transition and certainly impedes an understanding of change itself.[/QUOTE]

[Weston White]

I want to see a debate between the people who say we never really landed on the moon and these folks that are saying we discovered alien bases after landing on the moon. Actually, I NEED to see it.

Actually there is a very interesting documentary concerning the genius Stanley Kubrick entitled “Room 237” about “The Shinning”, adapted from a story written by the master-of-horror Steven King, a partial synopsis reads (which it is available on Netflix):

“Where you may think it’s merely a horror story — remember that blood flooding out of the elevator? — these devotees argue that Kubrick’s movie is really about more than a writer going homicidally bonkers,” Powers says. “For one, it’s about the genocide against Native Americans; for another, it’s about the Holocaust; yet another says the film is Kubrick’s admission that he helped fake footage of the Apollo 11 moon landing. By way of evidence, these folks point to all sorts of ‘clues,’ from the presence in several shots of the Calumet Baking Powder logo — with its distinctive tribal chief in a feathered headdress — to apparent continuity errors involving misplaced chairs that, this being Kubrick, can’t possibly be mere errors.””

Further noting the background involved in the making of another Kubrick masterpiece “2001: A Space Odyssey” and his controversial death surrounding his exposure of the Illuminati culture within his (conveniently) underrated “Eyes Wide Shut”.


Regardless as to whether or not NASA (or anybody else for that matter) has actually ever landed on the moon remains debatable, one thing is for certain the footage of the moon landing was faked. Asking a few simple questions points to the absurdness of the position held by the government, such as: why did NASA destroy all of the footage from the moon landing; did they really have the technology back then to wirelessly transmit live from space and with such clear and well timed sound and images (And if so why did they withhold such beneficial technologies from the public until just recently and what good is NASA and similar agencies, such as DARPA, if they keep worthwhile inventions from society?); why has no other nation yet bothered to make their own manned moon landing; why has NASA not yet been back or attempted to setup a moon base or colony; why has NASA or for that matter Google not yet scoped new high-definition images to map the entirety of the moon (currently all we have is distant still shots of large areas—at this point we have such better imagery of Mars than the Moon); what about investigating the present condition of the U.S. Flag that was supposedly planted over 44-years ago (Would that not be interesting to determine the long-term effects of deterioration in space?); why is there no anniversary of the moon landing that is celebrated (Will there by a 50th year anniversary at least?); they myriad of issues concerning severe radiation exposure, extreme changes in temperature, oxygen availability, zero-gravity concerns, and the limited advancements in technology and oversized gear that would have been required back in the 1960’s; why is NASA so overly defensive to those that raise fairly serious questions and discrepancies over the supposed moon landing?


ETA:

And as to the point of the thread, I think NASA (along with DARPA) should be downsized and absorbed into a special division of the U.S. Air Force, similarly to the Rangers, Seals, or EOD. And then all open space manned exploration would be suspended until technology permits for a more practical means of attending to such desires. In the mean time it would instead focus on the exploration and understanding of earth and its intra-planetary rotation and changing of continents, its interplanetary orbit and how it functions in the long-term within the universe as a whole (e.g., we still have not fully explored our own oceans, are still trying to comprehend weather patterns, geological affluence, are still discovering new life in the rainforests, and the like), including for the most part inventing new means of alerting and defense throughout earth’s various atmospheres (including gridding and shielding from incoming missiles, bombs, UFO’, space debris, etc.) and practical use (generally life benefiting) technologies within earth’s various atmospheres. As well the mapping out and exploration of our surrounding planets through unmanned beacons and rover-craft (which could also serve as sort of ever watchful alarm monitoring systems strategically positioned throughout space to rapidly notify us of other potential visitors, life, useful resources, or passing objects).

Noting further theories (as to the points within my ETA), which are too quickly dismissed as being quack-conspiracies include:

1. That planets very slowly grow over time, which vastly better explains the theory of Pangaea than just simply continental shift in and of itself, why other planets are so massive, and follows the principle of rapidly spinning objects which compel themselves to spherically enlarge through the forces of opposing gravity.

2. That crude oil is the result of dinosaurs, even when I was in school such a notion sounded like pure fiction (which would indicate that one could drill for oil virtually anywhere and strike it rich or that dinosaurs walked themselves to gigantic graveyards to pass away and collectively pool their natural resources thousands of feet below the surface to be harvested for energy by future generations); rather it is much more likely that crude oil is a process similarly to how diamonds and gems are created, although acting as a sort of self-manufactured bearing grease created by the earth through the sever friction and pressures of its ceaseless rotations, taking from other natural resources in the process, (e.g., rocks, dirt, water, mud, corpuses, plant life, minerals, etc.)

3. That earth possess its own natural cleansing cycle whereas the continents slowly pitch their degrees around the earth’s circumference endlessly throughout time, meaning that one day the Anarchic will one day shed its freezing temperatures for the high humidity and heat of the meridian, Africa its extreme head for the cold of the North Pole or South Pole, etc.