Libertarian Presidential Candidates Champion 'Open Borders'

[Sammy]

https://reason.com/2020/02/26/libertarian-presidential-candidates-champion-open-borders/

(https://reason.com/2020/02/26/libertarian-presidential-candidates-champion-open-borders/)Donald Trump, the most anti-immigrant president (https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/02/trump-immigration-policy-five-charts/) since Franklin Delano Roosevelt (https://reason.com/2004/12/01/indefensible-internment-2/), is running against a Democratic presidential field that almost unanimously (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/03/health/undocumented-immigrants-health-care.html) favors providing government-run health insurance to illegal immigrants (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/medicare-for-all/undocumented-immigrant-health-care/). Surely there is some middle ground between Stephen Miller (https://www.newyorker.com/podcast/political-scene/stephen-miller-the-architect-of-trumps-immigration-plan)-style family separation and a massive expansion of the welfare state to millions living outside the law?
The Libertarian Party, still the country's number-three political grouping (however distantly (https://reason.com/2018/12/08/the-libertarian-party-future-p/)), has a platform (https://www.lp.org/platform/) very copacetic toward immigrants, if not quite via state largesse.
"Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful," the party's immigration plank (https://www.lp.org/issues/immigration/) reads. "A truly free market requires the free movement of people, not just products and ideas….Of course, if someone has a record of violence, credible plans for violence, or acts violently, then Libertarians support blocking their entry, deporting, and/or prosecuting and imprisoning them, depending on the offense."
Bottom line: "Libertarians do not support classifying undocumented immigrants as criminals. Our current immigration system is an embarrassment. People who would like to follow the legal procedures are unable to because these procedures are so complex and expensive and lengthy. If Americans want immigrants to enter through legal channels, we need to make those channels fair, reasonable, and accessible."
To a notable degree, the L.P.'s top 2020 presidential candidates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Libertarian_Party_presidential_primaries) are hewing to the party's radical-for-American-politics immigration platform.
"One of the proudest positions that we have in this party is our open-border plank," Future of Freedom Foundation founder (https://jacobforliberty.com/about-jacob-hornberger/) Jacob Hornberger, who won the party's non-binding presidential caucuses in Iowa (https://lpia.org/2020/02/08/libertarian-party-of-iowa-presidential-caucus-winner-and-results/) and Minnesota (https://www.lpmn.org/libertarian-party-results-caucus-night-2020/) this month, said during a California debate (https://youtu.be/13OURsvOXeg) that I moderated Feb. 16. "I grew up on a farm on the Rio Grande. We hired illegal immigrants….Y'all know about the checkpoints. We got 'em over there. I've been stopped by the Border Patrol myself when I was in high school, 'Open up your trunk!' Warrantless searches onto our farm to bust our workers. It's a police state, and there's only one solution to it: Dismantle it all. People have a fundamental, God-given right to cross borders like human beings and not die of thirst and dehydration in the desert and on the back of 18-wheelers."
There were five other candidates on stage that night, and each said similar things.
Media entrepreneur and current fundraising leader Adam Kokesh (https://kokeshforpresident.com/), whose big campaign idea is signing an executive order on day one that dissolves the federal government (https://kokeshforpresident.com/platform/), posited that "Government borders are not legitimate," and that "only private property borders" deserve respect. Kokesh then added: "And if being American means anything about standing up to unjust authority and employing civil disobedience, I would dare say most who come here illegally are more American than the average apathetic American today."
Performance artist and serial candidate Vermin Supreme (https://verminsupreme2020.com/), who won the party's only other early-state contest so far (New Hampshire (https://www.facebook.com/LPNewHampshire/posts/1042544826106430)), quipped that "You cannot outlaw people. If you outlaw people, only people will be outlaws."
Deep-pocketed race newcomer Mark Whitney (https://www.markwhitney.com/), an ex-convict comedy enthusiast who founded THELAWNET (http://www.thelaw.net/), said of undocumented immigrants, "I not only want them to be citizens, I want them working on my campaign."

Academic and 1996 L.P. vice presidential nominee Jo Jorgensen (https://joj2020.com/) complained that, "Right now, we've got a system in which we keep everybody out, except we just let a few people in. What we need to do is flip it and just let everybody in."
And bipartisan (https://reason.com/2020/01/06/lincoln-chafee-former-republican-senator-and-independent-governor-seeks-libertarian-party-presidential-nomination/) former Rhode Island governor and U.S. senator Lincoln Chafee (https://www.lincolnchafee.com/) stressed the political expediency of it all: "I see this as a political advantage that with our open-border policy and libertarian views on immigration, especially the fastest-growing voting bloc in the United States, the Hispanics, are going to have the opportunity in 2020 to look at our platform and come to our side."
Among the eight other presidential candidates who attended the California L.P. convention but didn't convince enough delegates to send them to the debate stage, only one, Phil Gray (https://www.philgray2020.org/), even mentioned immigration during his allotted three-minute speech the night before, and that was in service to Gray's unusual idea (https://www.texasfreepress.com/phil-gray) of having undocumented workers pay down the country's $23 trillion debt.
Among the more than two dozen candidates (https://www.texasfreepress.com/libertarian-presidential-candidates) currently vying for the Libertarian presidential nomination, you can find the occasional balking at open borders: New Hampshire state Rep. Max Abramson (https://www.texasfreepress.com/max-abramson) ("Go after companies that replace American workers and Green Card holders with illegal immigrants and stop enticing opportunists to come into the country illegally"), business consultant and recent party-switcher Blake Ashby (https://www.texasfreepress.com/blake-ashby) ("I do not believe in an open border, or an open commitment to accept refugees"), pipe welder/fitter (https://www.blevinsforpresident.org/about) and outdoorsman Kenneth Blevins (https://www.texasfreepress.com/kenneth-blevins) ("I fully support legal and vetted immigration"), FedEx Hawaiian Steven Richey (https://www.texasfreepress.com/steven-richey) ("owning property and sending remittances should be reserved for citizens"), "business owner, singer, minister, lover of people" Demetra Jefferson Wysinger (https://www.texasfreepress.com/demetra-wysinger) ("entering our nation illegally is NOT immigration it is an invasion and a crime"), and "alchemist jedi (http://alchemythemasterspath.com/jediforusa/)" Jedidiah Hill (https://www.texasfreepress.com/jedidiah-hill) ("Integrate the people into society have them learn English and put them to work").
But with the exception of Abramson, none of these candidates have made a noticeable splash during primary season, and even Abramson finished a desultory 14th in the primary balloting (https://www.facebook.com/LPNewHampshire/posts/1042544826106430) in his home state.
The bigger story is the story that isn't there. Which is to say, while immigration politics tends to at least somewhat divide all political blocs, including both libertarians (https://reason.com/2018/10/01/dear-immigration-restrictionis/) and Libertarians (https://reason.com/2017/07/17/controversial-western-civilization-crusa/), that particular dog is just not hunting in this principle-driven (https://reason.com/2019/11/07/candidates-vie-to-represent-the-libertarian-wing-of-the-libertarian-party/) L.P. presidential cycle.
A key figure in that development is Jacob Hornberger (https://reason.com/people/jacob-hornberger/), who is not only the most well-known libertarian intellectual running, but also has the backing of the party's growing Mises Caucus (https://lpmisescaucus.com/), which adheres to the Austrian school of economics and affiliates positively with members of the Ludwig von Mises Institute (https://mises.org/) in Auburn, Alabama. (LvMI Senior Fellow and popular podcaster Tom Woods (https://reason.com/video/tom-woods-inteview/) sits on the Mises Caucus's advisory board, and has endorsed Hornberger, as has comic Dave Smith (https://reason.com/video/dave-smith-ron-paul-libertas-comedy/).)
Leadership figures in the Libertarian Party and Mises Institute have been sniping periodically at one another since 2017, in part over the perceived politically correct "identity politics" in the L.P. versus the perceived politically incorrect "blood and soil (https://mises.org/wire/new-libertarian)" enthusiasms at LvMI. (Read my account of their clash at the 2018 Libertarian National Convention (https://reason.com/2018/07/04/libertarian-party-rebuffs-mises-uprising/).) Some Libertarians never tire of pointing out LvMI's hospitality toward nationalists like Hans-Hermann Hoppe (https://mises.org/library/immigration-roundtable-hans-hermann-hoppe); the Misesites, in turn, rarely miss an opportunity to mock L.P. National types for "virtue signaling (https://libertyconservative.com/libertarian-party-chairman-savaged-for-virtue-signaling-in-brutal-twitter-beatdown/)."
Yet both sides have stayed in the same party tent (https://reason.com/2018/10/01/70-million-votes-or-1-million/), with Woods and Smith, in particular, helping whip up new recruits on their podcasts. And in Hornberger, a longtime friend of Ron Paul, the Mises enthusiasts have someone who is both unimpeachably anti-war (https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2017/08/21/ron-paul-jacob-hornberger-on-trumps-afghanistan-strategy-what-to-expect/) (the issue that, along with ending the Federal Reserve, the Austrians elevate above all) and unapologetically open borders. No blood and soil on this Texan's watch.
At the Massachusetts state Libertarian convention last July, months before he jumped into the race, Hornberger gave a fire-and-brimstone defense of open immigration as essential to a free society.
"One of the most glorious, honorable positions that this party has ever taken is open borders," he said. "Oh I know, Libertarians will say 'Oh my God, this is an albatross, Jacob! This is a liability! This is costing votes! We need to join up with Republicans and Democrats on this issue!' Perish the thought. There are people dying in the American Southwest in deserts from dehydration and thirst. They're dying crossing the Rio Grande, including children. They're dying in the back of 18-wheelers. They're having children taken away from their families. You have a police state all along the border in the Southwest, and in Texas. There is no way to reconcile all of this police-state action and death and suffering—and for Libertarians to ever align themselves would be a moral abomination."
Part of what makes Hornberger's immigration message saleable to Libertarians is that he couples it with obliterating, not expanding, the welfare state.
"We live in a society that is based on massive mandatory charity," he said in Massachusetts. "With the crown jewels of this system being Social Security and Medicare, along with a host of others. There is no way to reconcile a genuinely free society with mandatory charity. No way at all. Because people have a natural, God-given right to keep everything they earn, and decide for themselves what to do with it….And so if we are going to achieve a free society it necessarily presupposes a dismantling of infringements on liberty, and that includes Social Security and Medicare. You have to repeal, abolish, dismantle infringements on liberty in order to achieve the free society."
The L.P. presidential race, which will be settled at the national convention in Austin, Texas, May 21-25 (https://lnc2020.com/), has so far been a battle to see who can best represent the libertarian wing of the Libertarian Party (https://reason.com/2019/11/07/candidates-vie-to-represent-the-libertarian-wing-of-the-libertarian-party/). As such it is striking, in this moment of major-party polarization and deep immigration-policy divides, to see a principled Libertarian immigration message emerging: Mr. Trump, tear down this wall.



(https://reason.com/2020/02/26/libertarian-presidential-candidates-champion-open-borders/)

[AngryCanadian]

How could anyone think of opening borders at a current time like this?

[revgen]

I don't understand "libertarians" who support open borders. Closed borders protects private property owners on the border from trespassing by foreigners. The constitution gives the federal government the responsibility to protect our rights. Including our property rights.

[Sammy]

Jo Jorgensen "We need to have open borders".

[Anti Globalist]

Yeah lets have open borders when people all over the country are freaking out over a virus. Brilliant idea.

[tfurrh]

I don't understand "libertarians" who support open borders. Closed borders protects private property owners on the border from trespassing by foreigners. The constitution gives the federal government the responsibility to protect our rights. Including our property rights.

Anytime I go to Louisiana from here I just drive through someone's pasture. It's the only way.

[Todd]

This was written about a month ago. Love to hear their opinion on it now with historical precedence. Think that might be relevant? Who knows.

[kahless]

Again proving the LP exists to fill the spot to prevent actual libertarian beliefs and voices from becoming mainstream.

[jkr]

PHEW!
i thought it was Jacob Hornberger...

[PAF]

I wholeheartedly am for open borders. There is not enough talk about ending the welfare state.

Closed borders results in the following:

1. Identification, paper and/or biometrics, to distinguish you from me.

2. Provides the state, Fed, a database of information that is none of their MF business.

3. The state, Fed, utilizes Eminent Domain, taking rightful property from those who own it.

4. Elimination of private contract rights, registering with the government, forced to pay taxes and Grow the Fed, and also requires employers to pay mandated government minimum wage.

5. Requires enforcement by Government Employees.

6. Once signed up with Fed.gov, 5 years later they are eligible to vote, including standing in line at the Welfare office.

7. Stymies a $1 Billion Per Day economy, disrupting/closing farms and companies, pushing more, including Americans, onto government assist.

People learn nothing. Every time any time folks want the government to fix a problem that they created, it comes back to me and the money I earn!

MORE talk about the freedom to travel freely and the elimination of welfare/handouts needs to start now, lest you be biometrically identified, your private property seized for the “greater good” and contract rights between you and employee be taken away. Which has gone on long enough. Including PAYING for a wall, more government offices, government employees, and laws/bureaucratic red tape.

KEEP them “illegal”. As such they are not entitled to anything without ID!

[revgen]

I wholeheartedly am for open borders. There is not enough talk about ending the welfare state.

Closed borders results in the following:

1. Identification, paper and/or biometrics, to distinguish you from me.

2. Provides the state, Fed, a database of information that is none of their MF business.

3. The state, Fed, utilizes Eminent Domain, taking rightful property from those who own it.

4. Elimination of private contract rights, registering with the government, forced to pay taxes and Grow the Fed, and also requires employers to pay mandated government minimum wage.

5. Requires enforcement by Government Employees.

6. Once signed up with Fed.gov, 5 years later they are eligible to vote, including standing in line at the Welfare office.

7. Stymies a $1 Billion Per Day economy, disrupting/closing farms and companies, pushing more, including Americans, onto government assist.

People learn nothing. Every time any time folks want the government to fix a problem that they created, it comes back to me and the money I earn!

MORE talk about the freedom to travel freely and the elimination of welfare/handouts needs to start now, lest you be biometrically identified, your private property seized for the “greater good” and contract rights between you and employee be taken away. Which has gone on long enough. Including PAYING for a wall, more government offices, government employees, and laws/bureaucratic red tape.

KEEP them “illegal”. As such they are not entitled to anything without ID!

1) Only if you're attempting to cross the border.
2) Again, it's none of their business if you're not crossing the border.
3) Utilizing eminent domain is part of the constitution. If you don't like it, talk to the Founders, or try amending the Constitution.
4) Border security has existed long before the Federal Reserve or the 16th amendment was ever established. Private contracts don't need to be eliminated to provide border security.
5) Private security can also be utilized by private property owners in addition to border patrol.
6) I don't understand this statement.
7) Again, I don't see what this has to do with border security.

Border security isn't a fix. It's a responsibility assigned to the federal government by the Constitution, and it keeps private property owners protected from trespassing by foreigners.

[Anti Federalist]

"Libertarians believe that people should be able to travel freely as long as they are peaceful,"

And what if they are not?

This invasion we are suffering under is not "organic".

It is a well orchestrated and well funded act of war, for the purpose of demographic control of territory by displacing and overwhelming the existing population.

Why don't you ask these guys how unlimited immigration, into a borderless world, of people hostile to them and their traditions and cultures and heritage...ask them how it worked out.

https://etc.usf.edu/clipart/5600/5682/sioux_1_lg.gif

[PAF]

1) Only if you're attempting to cross the border.
2) Again, it's none of their business if you're not crossing the border.
3) Utilizing eminent domain is part of the constitution. If you don't like it, talk to the Founders, or try amending the Constitution.
4) Border security has existed long before the Federal Reserve or the 16th amendment was ever established. Private contracts don't need to be eliminated to provide border security.
5) Private security can also be utilized by private property owners in addition to border patrol.
6) I don't understand this statement.
7) Again, I don't see what this has to do with border security.

Border security isn't a fix. It's a responsibility assigned to the federal government by the Constitution, and it keeps private property owners protected from trespassing by foreigners.

You have too many “if’s” for my liking, so here is one for you:

Perhaps if people quit meddling in my own business, and quit shifting responsibility to others and the government, I would not have to work so hard to live freely and keep my own money.

Here, this might help: http://www.kopubco.com/pdf/An_Agorist_Primer_by_SEK3.pdf

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Yeah, sure libertarians; start with the most pie-in-the-sky issue and see how many converts you make. :rolleyes:

Many libertarians have no marketing or business sense. Focusing, or even addressing, this issue is a sure fire way for newcomers to instantly reject freedom.

There are plenty of other issues to address. Focus on something else.

[Sammy]

PAF
Do you believe in National sovereignty? Most New Immigrants support gun control,bigger government & higher Taxes that's anti Libertarian.
I really like you but you are wrong on this issue!

[PAF]

PAF
Do you believe in National sovereignty? Most New Immigrants support gun control,bigger government & higher Taxes that's anti Libertarian.
I really like you but you are wrong on this issue!

The feeling is mutual Sammy. I can only go by my own experience, living where I live and traveling abroad. It was immigrants and the like who helped me the most during RP’s run in 2012. Abroad, they can’t stand the U.S. meddling into their affairs and consider us the invaders.

Many of my friends and acquaintances in my area who are immigrants own businesses and work hard, and cannot stand the tax rates and other mandates the state/fed impose on them. It is the white multi-generational Americans who are in Section 8, having kid after kid by 3-4 guys, who become irate when I mention to them that there are businesses hiring just down the road.

[106459]

The feeling is mutual Sammy. I can only go by my own experience, living where I live and traveling abroad. It was immigrants and the like who helped me the most during RP’s run in 2012. Abroad, they can’t stand the U.S. meddling into their affairs and consider us the invaders.

Many of my friends and acquaintances in my area who are immigrants own businesses and work hard, and cannot stand the tax rates and other mandates the state/fed impose on them. It is the white multi-generational Americans who are in Section 8, having kid after kid by 3-4 guys, who become irate when I mention to them that there are businesses hiring just down the road.

That's fine you want to draw off personal experiences, and perfectly legitimate. My question: Have you ever lived in States that have taken in refugees? In Northern Virginia, we've got a big pocket of El Salvadorians. I went to a high school that's 30% white, perfectly multi-cultural. Except a lot of my friends parents never bothered to learn to speak English. There are mechanics, bakeries, a whole swath of businesses that operate on a Spanish-only basis. How is that not going to cause problems, when people come here, and create their own totally separate communities where we can't even speak in the same language to each other? And they do. My friends parents have done it for 15 years. And they certainly aren't doing it all by themselves.

So: I've actually done some numbers in another thread: State Electorates Rapidly Changed by Mass Immigration (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?544298-State-Electorates-Rapidly-Changed-by-Mass-Immigration), I'll give you that 25% are "good" guys, but we're seeing 60% of them "bad guys". Great - Virginia gets 75,000 rear-busting, honest to God, great people. That's awesome. How does that help when we get 186,000 bad ones?

[PAF]

That's fine you want to draw off personal experiences, and perfectly legitimate. My question: Have you ever lived in States that have taken in refugees? In Northern Virginia, we've got a big pocket of El Salvadorians. I went to a high school that's 30% white, perfectly multi-cultural. Except a lot of my friends parents never bothered to learn to speak English. There are mechanics, bakeries, a whole swath of businesses that operate on a Spanish-only basis. How is that not going to cause problems, when people come here, and create their own totally separate communities where we can't even speak in the same language to each other? And they do. My friends parents have done it for 15 years. And they certainly aren't doing it all by themselves.

So: I've actually done some numbers in another thread: State Electorates Rapidly Changed by Mass Immigration (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?544298-State-Electorates-Rapidly-Changed-by-Mass-Immigration), I'll give you that 25% are "good" guys, but we're seeing 60% of them "bad guys". Great - Virginia gets 75,000 rear-busting, honest to God, great people. That's awesome. How does that help when we get 186,000 bad ones?

All I can say is trump, bush, elected politicians, school boards, etc are filled with white Americans (I am too btw), and they refuse to even talk about the indoctrination camps which are our public school system, and the FedDeptEd. If you think immigrants, undocumented even, have any control over the White House and their quest for power, think again. Keep them all out, restrict my freedom to travel freely, pay for that wall while taking private property that does not belong to you and me, sign up for that eVerify and pump all that data up to the Feds, and see if they change their tune and eliminate the camps.

It is a ruse. They will use any tactic to get you to buy into their scheme, having you believe that if we keep foreigners out they will magically turn pure and return schools back to local. Obama started building that wall, requiring Mexicans to “sign up” with the government, only back then Republicans stood up and fought for their private property and contract rights. In comes trump the real estate magnate that he is, republicans give him a pass and make a hard turn left.

Read my signature ;-)

[tfurrh]

Immigration =/= citizenship

[106459]

All I can say is trump, bush, elected politicians, school boards, etc are filled with white Americans (I am too btw), and they refuse to even talk about the indoctrination camps which are our public school system, and the FedDeptEd. If you think immigrants, undocumented even, have any control over the White House and their quest for power, think again.

Well, voting immigrants who are aligned with big government certainly make big government's job easier. In VA, it looks like they accounted for half the winning votes (and we're still importing them, that was back in 2017). I can't agree that making our job, getting back to limited government, twice as hard, is a good idea.

-Sure, there are the powerful white Americans who benefit from Globalism and their gated communities. There are a ton that don't.
-The point is, is that surveys have been taken, and they've found that immigrants are decidedly less American than Americans (sounds believable to me).

So that's awesome that you have had good experiences with immigrants. That's great on personal levels that you are able to control. In a nation of 300 million, we can't base this policy off anecdotal experiences. The numbers show immigrants are making America less small government. If we want to change the game, ensure our immigration policy leads us back to smaller government voting, then yeah, I'd jump on that immigration train. But that isn't happening.



Keep them all out, restrict my freedom to travel freely, pay for that wall while taking private property that does not belong to you and me, sign up for that eVerify and pump all that data up to the Feds, and see if they change their tune and eliminate the camps.

Yeah, the majority of control can be done at the US border, which the vast majority of Americans won't interact with. A small percent will; that's unfortunate. The world's never been perfect. Better than the alternative of immigrants giving the Democratic party a 100% monopoly in 20 years time when we're ballot stuffed out of the equation.


It is a ruse. They will use any tactic to get you to buy into their scheme, having you believe that if we keep foreigners out they will magically turn pure and return schools back to local. Obama started building that wall, requiring Mexicans to “sign up” with the government, only back then Republicans stood up and fought for their private property and contract rights. In comes trump the real estate magnate that he is, republicans give him a pass and make a hard turn left.

Read my signature ;-)

No, I don't believe that keeping foreigners out is the panacea for all of our problems. But when you have wounds, I believe some of the first medical advice is to stop the bleeding, no? Let's stop, what we know to be, importing opposed ideology by a 62:25 margin. That's not helping.

As others have posted, the Libertarian party is infuriating when they show absolutely 0 political acumen. They are 1000% putting the cart in front of the horse in this scenario. They talk about how great immigration could be. And it could be. But absolutely not in this environment where it is weaponized to import refugees that support Democrat big government. They are giving away everything, letting the D's import as many as they want, without getting anything in return. Because no one, in this environment, is going to stop the welfare system. That comes first. Absolutely. Until then, stop the bleeding.

[r3volution 3.0]

I don't understand "libertarians" who support open borders. Closed borders protects private property owners on the border from trespassing by foreigners.

Jose walking from his property in Mexico to Joe's property in the US, with Joe's permission but without the USG's permission, isn't trespassing. The idea that governmental approval is required to enter the US implies that the government owns all the land in the US, i.e. communism of land. Border controls violate private property rights by prohibiting landowners from opening their land to whomever they want. The same applies to the effects of border controls in the interior of the country: e.g. companies being prohibited from entering into employment contracts with whomever they please. This isn't to say that border controls are never justified. Like other property rights violations (e.g. taxes) they can be justified to prevent even larger property rights violations, as circumstances require.

[106459]

Immigration =/= citizenship

That's a fair point, immigration does not equal citizenship (green cards/legal resident, etc). Except for when it does; in the future. Reagan, supposed to be one of the great conservative beacons, was one who just gave amnesty and then made all those immigrants == citizens. Am I expected to believe that these illegal immigrants aren't going to become citizens? No one's going to kick them out. It's not gonna happen. Didn't happen in Reagan's time; certainly won't happen today. Let me know if there was more to be understood.

More importantly, the study I explicitly linked to, was specifically about voting immigrants ("Virginia’s foreign-born voting population has ballooned to about 550,000"). Running the math that we have available on that, we should be able to reliably account for 50% of the D's winning votes in VA 2017 was due to voting immigrants. Is that good?

[PAF]

106459

Trump, republican, won the presidency, a democrat did not. He was voted in by republicans. He passed the largest Omnibus in the entire history of this nation, something obama could only have wet dreams about. He never utters a word about FedDeptEd/Common Core, or private property and contract rights to the American people.

What’s up with that? Do you think keeping immigrants out will change his mind? Democrats did not win the presidency this ‘round.

[tfurrh]

Regarding Latinos....(have no idea about other nationalities). 2/3rds vote D and 1/3rd R. The major issue for the 2/3rds is immigration. The 1/3rd that vote R still have the same immigration views but pro-life is their no 1 issue. I say there's got to be a middle road where immigration for work and such is easier, but citizenship is difficult (ex end birthright citizenship).

This would even up the Latino vote imo.

[Brian4Liberty]

Nice in theory, but not so much in practice...


"One of the proudest positions that we have in this party is our open-border plank," Future of Freedom Foundation founder Jacob Hornberger, who won the party's non-binding presidential caucuses in Iowa and Minnesota this month, said during a California debate that I moderated Feb. 16. "I grew up on a farm on the Rio Grande. We hired illegal immigrants….Y'all know about the checkpoints. We got 'em over there. I've been stopped by the Border Patrol myself when I was in high school, 'Open up your trunk!' Warrantless searches onto our farm to bust our workers. It's a police state, and there's only one solution to it: Dismantle it all. People have a fundamental, God-given right to cross borders like human beings and not die of thirst and dehydration in the desert and on the back of 18-wheelers."

Well, that happened when I was in High School too. They were looking for alcohol. Will that stop if the borders are opened? Will the “DUI” checkpoints go away, where they arrest 2 people for DUI, and 20 people for outstanding warrants? Will welfare end if the borders open? Will regulations and crony corporatism end? What will this buy us?

Proudest position? To virtue signal? Sorry, got news for you. All of those insane SJWs that you are trying to appeal to find libertarians and Libertarians to be their biggest enemies, because libertarians don’t support their socialism and communism. And all of the cheap labor crony corporatists laugh at libertarians, but they may pay you to write articles supporting cheap labor immigration for them.

[Brian4Liberty]

Regarding Latinos....(have no idea about other nationalities). 2/3rds vote D and 1/3rd R. The major issue for the 2/3rds is immigration. The 1/3rd that vote R still have the same immigration views but pro-life is their no 1 issue. I say there's got to be a middle road where immigration for work and such is easier, but citizenship is difficult (ex end birthright citizenship).

This would even up the Latino vote imo.

I know plenty of Latinos that do not support more immigration of any kind. But yes, they are probably outnumbered by the La Raza segment, that wants immigration from south of the border, but not from Asia.

[tfurrh]

I know plenty of Latinos that do not support more immigration of any kind. But yes, they are probably outnumbered by the La Raza segment, that wants immigration from south of the border, but not from Asia.

I was being very broad/general but yes on many exceptions

[106459]

106459

Trump, republican, won the presidency, a democrat did not. He was voted in by republicans. He passed the largest Omnibus in the entire history of this nation, something obama could only have wet dreams about. He never utters a word about FedDeptEd/Common Core, or private property and contract rights to the American people.

What’s up with that? Do you think keeping immigrants out will change his mind? Democrats did not win the presidency this ‘round.

Yep, Trump is a Republican who got voted in, 2016. Give our current immigration policy 20 years, looks like 459,000 a year, another 9 million people.

2.6 million votes R
6.5 million votes D

How does that help? Democrats aren't even going to have to pay lip service to moderates at that point. We'll be full-blown reparations required mode.

If you'd like to make a point about the "largest Omnibus", I'll listen. As it stands, the US currency is inflated away year after year, the economy is listed as growing, no one is interested in shrinking the overall size of government, so it would only be a logical deduction that the 2019 Omnibus is larger than the 2018 Omnibus.

Yeah - there are a ton of things Trump has been quiet or silent on. I'm pleased that my taxes were cut, regulations rolled back, MSM is being called out as fake news. Then there have been all of the debates of "he is more of the same" - right. There was no option to make any of that better. It is a non-argument when you are presenting a non-choice. I'm glad we have Trump's judges (the option), over Hilary's judges (the other option).

So, in regards to Education? I'm not happy he hasn't trashed Common Core. I am happy that he appointed Betsy Davos, a "Charter School advocate". Of the two options: either keep growing DoE, or put someone in office who will work to remove the dirty-word stigma of "Charter School", I'll take the 2nd option I can get.

-What's sad is I tried to go up and read some articles .. and I like how the spin is at it again. I'm being told Davos is "anti-charter school" ... when it looks like the reality is this:

"The Trump administration proposed a major reduction in federal education spending Monday that would eliminate nearly 30 standalone programs, including ones that support homeless students, rural students, English learners, and magnet schools.

Perhaps most surprisingly, the proposal would effectively axe a long-standing federal program that has catalyzed charter school growth across the country.

The department packaged this move as part of a bigger effort to give states more decision-making power."

...So, who knows. I never said Trump was a great President. He's the greatest in my lifetime. Looks like he wants to shrink federal government spending on education. Probably increase Charter Schools as an option. Cutting my taxes was great. The alternative is not great. Very bad, actually.

So, "Do you think keeping immigrants out will change his mind", is just a complete straw-man and misrepresentation of anything I said. I said to keep immigrants out, to stop the bleeding, because the current policy (the only policy that will be allowed), is to make the Democrat's job twice as easy. To get bigger government.

Until your plan has a 100%, stop the welfare, import immigrants that we know will reliably be 50:50 instead of 62:25, I'm not receptive at all to the concept of open borders and more immigration.

[revgen]

Jose walking from his property in Mexico to Joe's property in the US, with Joe's permission but without the USG's permission, isn't trespassing. The idea that governmental approval is required to enter the US implies that the government owns all the land in the US, i.e. communism of land. Border controls violate private property rights by prohibiting landowners from opening their land to whomever they want. The same applies to the effects of border controls in the interior of the country: e.g. companies being prohibited from entering into employment contracts with whomever they please. This isn't to say that border controls are never justified. Like other property rights violations (e.g. taxes) they can be justified to prevent even larger property rights violations, as circumstances require.

That's how national sovereignty works. Calling it "communism" is a mischaracterization. The government doesn't own the land. They just control the borders with other countries.

If you want to end national sovereignty and have the only borders be property borders, then you might as well end national sovereignty altogether.

[r3volution 3.0]

That's how national sovereignty works. Calling it "communism" is a mischaracterization. The government doesn't own the land. They just control the borders with other countries.

If you want to end national sovereignty and have the only borders be property borders, then you might as well end national sovereignty altogether.

Yes indeed, that is how national sovereignty works, which demonstrates the contradiction between national sovereignty and individual liberty.

[Swordsmyth]

Immigration =/= citizenship

Sooner or later it does.

Even if it takes a revolution.

[Swordsmyth]

That's how national sovereignty works. Calling it "communism" is a mischaracterization. The government doesn't own the land. They just control the borders with other countries.

If you want to end national sovereignty and have the only borders be property borders, then you might as well end national sovereignty altogether.
That's exactly what the globalibertarians want.

They either deny or really want the consequence that the whole world is dragged down to the lowest common denominator of tyranny.

[Anti Federalist]

That's exactly what the globalibertarians want.

They either deny or really want the consequence that the whole world is dragged down to the lowest common denominator of tyranny.

"No borders! No walls! No USA at all!"

That's the globatarian goal.

That and reducing the once majority European white population to dispossessed second or third class citizenship, simply because what a good portion of that demographic support are ideas that are a thorn in the side and impediment to globotarian's plans.

[r3volution 3.0]

"No borders! No walls! No USA at all!"

That's the globatarian goal.

That and reducing the once majority European white population to dispossessed second or third class citizenship, simply because what a good portion of that demographic support are ideas that are a thorn in the side and impediment to globotarian's plans.

Don't project; race is of no interest to libertarians one way or the other.

[Anti Federalist]

Don't project; race is of no interest to libertarians one way or the other.

I'm well aware of that.

By refusing to recognize that fact, the open borders mob opens us all to invasion, displacement and genocide.

[r3volution 3.0]

I'm well aware of that.

By refusing to recognize that fact, the open borders mob opens us all to invasion, displacement and genocide.

1. Demographic changes won't significantly affect political outcomes one way or the other; the problem is a matter of human nature.

2. Peaceful immigration isn't invasion.

3. Having hamburger joints displaced by taco stands isn't a problem warranting a political solution.

4. One population being outbred by another isn't genocide.

[Swordsmyth]

Don't project; race is of no interest to libertarians one way or the other.
LOL

There are powerful globalibertarians who seek to artificially change our cultural and racial makeup, we are in the way of their stupid world government schemes.
They don't care about liberty except for themselves.

[r3volution 3.0]

LOL

There are powerful globalibertarians who seek to artificially change our cultural and racial makeup, we are in the way of their stupid world government schemes.
They don't care about liberty except for themselves.

Who are these powerful libertarians controlling the world from behind the scenes?

Seeing as how the world is moving rapidly toward socialism, they seem to be doing a rather shit job, no?

[Swordsmyth]

1. Demographic changes won't significantly affect political outcomes one way or the other; the problem is a matter of human nature.

2. Peaceful immigration isn't invasion.

3. Having hamburger joints displaced by taco stands isn't a problem warranting a political solution.

4. One population being outbred by another isn't genocide.
When one culture comes in vast numbers and uses it's political clout to impose big government on another culture it is an invasion by novel means and that is what is happening.

The breeding difference is artificially induced and the active genocide will follow when the foreigners gain sufficient power.

[Swordsmyth]

Who are these powerful libertarians controlling the world from behind the scenes?

Seeing as how the world is moving rapidly toward socialism, they seem to be doing a rather $#@! job, no?
The Kochs are one example.
And they don't care about the move towards socialism as long as they can do as they please as part of the ruling class.

[r3volution 3.0]

When one culture comes in vast numbers and uses it's political clout to impose big government...

Look around you: no need for foreigners to impose big government on this country.

[r3volution 3.0]

The Kochs are one example.

Any others?

[Swordsmyth]

Any others?

The guy who owns Palantir, whatever his name is.

[Swordsmyth]

Look around you: no need for foreigners to impose big government on this country.
Things can and will get worse if they are not kept out and all hope of reducing government will vanish.

[r3volution 3.0]

The guy who owns Palantir, whatever his name is.

A man of such vast powers that we can't remember his name...

Let's look at the Kochs, who are indeed quite libertarian-leaning.

One of their highest priorities, as far as I can tell, is free trade.

They obviously have great influence on politics, considering the recent swing toward lower tariffs, amiright?


Things can and will get worse if they are not kept out and all hope of reducing government will vanish.

I'm sure the GOP will make an about face any day now and start cutting spending, pushing for sound money, etc.

Now's not a good time, though, maybe next term...

[Swordsmyth]

A man of such vast powers that we can't remember his name...

Let's look at the Kochs, who are indeed quite libertarian-leaning.

One of their highest priorities, as far as I can tell, is free trade.

They obviously have great influence on politics, considering the recent swing toward lower tariffs, amiright?



I'm sure the GOP will make an about face any day now and start cutting spending, pushing for sound money, etc.

Now's not a good time, though, maybe next term...
Peter Thiel.

[RJB]

1. Demographic changes won't significantly affect political outcomes one way or the other; the problem is a matter of human nature.
So if you switch the people who live in North and South Carolina with those in Venezuela, the rednecks would adopt Chavez style socialism and the South American Commies would adopt American southern living?

[Swordsmyth]

So if you switch the people who live in North and South Carolina with those in Venezuela, the rednecks would adopt Chavez style socialism and the South American Commies would adopt American southern living?

Magic dirt.

[r3volution 3.0]

Peter Thiel.

And what has been his great and nefarious influence on politics (even supposing he's a libertarian, which I rather doubt)?

[r3volution 3.0]

So if you switch the people who live in North and South Carolina with those in Venezuela, the rednecks would adopt Chavez style socialism and the South American Commies would adopt American southern living?

Venezuelans react to food shortages by demanding price controls, for instance.

Drop some Carolinians into Venezuela, let them experience those same food shortages, and, yes, they'll react in a similar way.

Unfortunately, we might get to test this hypothesis right here at home in the near future.

Stay tuned sports fans.

[Swordsmyth]

And what has been his great and nefarious influence on politics (even supposing he's a libertarian, which I rather doubt)?

He claims to be libertarian but he promotes globalism and surveillance.

[Swordsmyth]

Venezuelans react to food shortages by demanding price controls, for instance.

Drop some Carolinians into Venezuela, let them experience those same food shortages, and, yes, they'll react in a similar way.

Unfortunately, we might get to test this hypothesis right here at home in the near future.

Stay tuned sports fans.
LOL

[axiomata]

He claims to be libertarian but he promotes globalism and surveillance.

And supports Trump.

[Swordsmyth]

And supports Trump.

And?

Shall we list all the bad people who supported Ron?

[RJB]

Venezuelans react to food shortages by demanding price controls, for instance.

Drop some Carolinians into Venezuela, let them experience those same food shortages, and, yes, they'll react in a similar way.

Unfortunately, we might get to test this hypothesis right here at home in the near future.

Stay tuned sports fans.
No. The Venezuelans were in that mess because they elected Bernie Sanders' brother of another mother, Hugo Chavez. Carolinians would not do that. 20 years ago, even Californians would not do that. Now a days, Californians would elect a Hugo Chavez and it is the direct result of immigration.

[Swordsmyth]

No. The Venezuelans were in that mess because they elected Bernie Sanders' brother of another mother, Hugo Chavez. Carolinians would not do that. 20 years ago, even Californians would not do that. Now a days, Californians would elect a Hugo Chavez and it is the direct result of immigration.
Culture matters.

Otherwise the whole world would all be the same because no culture would ever have risen above the dirt.

[ATruepatriot]

No. The Venezuelans were in that mess because they elected Bernie Sanders' brother of another mother, Hugo Chavez. Carolinians would not do that. 20 years ago, even Californians would not do that. Now a days, Californians would elect a Hugo Chavez and it is the direct result of immigration.

Having been driven out of Ca because of that very fact I agree with you 100% Now it is happening to Az.

[RJB]

Having been driven out of Ca because of that very fact I agree with you 100% Now it is happening to Az.

It is frustrating when purists pretend that there is no difference between the governments of Arizona or California or Venezuela, because a relatively free state like Arizona isn't an anarchistic utopia.

We are spoiled in America. Only someone who has never faced hardship can pretend that the US government is as tyrannical against it's people as Pol Pot's Cambodia or modern day Saudi Arabia.

No, my state is not perfect, and I am working to make it better, but it can get a helluva lot worse.

[Swordsmyth]

It is frustrating when purists pretend that there is no difference between the governments of Arizona or California or Venezuela, because a relatively free state like Arizona isn't an anarchistic utopia.

We are spoiled in America. Only someone who has never faced hardship can pretend that the US government is as tyrannical against it's people as Pol Pot's Cambodia or modern day Saudi Arabia.

No, my state is not perfect, and I am working to make it better, but it can get a helluva lot worse.
They are willfully ignorant, it allows them to pursue their fantasies heedless of any risks because they pretend there is nothing to lose.

[ATruepatriot]

It is frustrating when purists pretend that there is no difference between the governments of Arizona or California or Venezuela, because a relatively free state like Arizona isn't an anarchistic utopia.

We are spoiled in America. Only someone who has never faced hardship can pretend that the US government is as tyrannical against it's people as Pol Pot's Cambodia or modern day Saudi Arabia.

No, my state is not perfect, and I am working to make it better, but it can get a helluva lot worse.

I agree, and it can indeed get a hell of a lot worse. Those who spout that utopia have never personally been there to see the "worse" and how bad it truly is and have no clue. They have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the globalist media who hides the reality of it.

[Anti Federalist]

1. Demographic changes won't significantly affect political outcomes one way or the other; the problem is a matter of human nature.

(This is demonstrably false, as we watch places like CA - VA and TX turn blue right before our eyes due to migrant invasion - AF)

2. Peaceful immigration isn't invasion.

(This is not peaceful immigration. This is illegal invasion, sponsored and orchestrated by enemies of this nation and it's people. These people are an invading army, regardless of whether they have arms or not. - AF)

3. Having hamburger joints displaced by taco stands isn't a problem warranting a political solution.

(There is more to Western Civilization than MacDonald's - AF)

4. One population being outbred by another isn't genocide.

("The problem with Scotland is that it is full of Scots. Therefore I intend to re-instate the law of prima nocte, first night, where our nobles will have exclusive rights to the marriage beds newly wedded Scots women. If we can't kick them out, we'll breed them out." - Edward Longshanks)

You're in favor of One World Government ruled by a King.

Therefore, being skewed thusly, every point you made is wrong.

And I don't put much stock in them.

[Anti Federalist]

I agree, and it can indeed get a hell of a lot worse. Those who spout that utopia have never personally been there to see the "worse" and how bad it truly is and have no clue. They have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the globalist media who hides the reality of it.

I've been around the world more than once and this is very true.

[Swordsmyth]

You're in favor of One World Government ruled by a King.

Therefore, being skewed thusly, every point you made is wrong.

And I don't put much stock in them.
I think we can give him #3 as long as the owners and employees are from our culture and don't spread disease through poor hygiene or vote for communism.

[r3volution 3.0]

No. The Venezuelans were in that mess because they elected Bernie Sanders' brother of another mother, Hugo Chavez. Carolinians would not do that. 20 years ago, even Californians would not do that. Now a days, Californians would elect a Hugo Chavez and it is the direct result of immigration.

It's only a difference of degree and timing. We're moving toward the same kind of crisis as they've experienced, with people (native born, mostly white people) voting for ever-larger government, every election. Each country's politics are a little different for random reasons: some particularly charismatic politician happens to born there rather than there, that country happens to have some exogenous crisis while this country doesn't, whatever. The basic trend is the same.

[Swordsmyth]

It's only a difference of degree and timing. We're moving toward the same kind of crisis as they've experienced, with people (native born, mostly white people) voting for ever-larger government, every election. Each country's politics are a little different for random reasons: some particularly charismatic politician happens to born there rather than there, that country happens to have some exogenous crisis while this country doesn't, whatever. The basic trend is the same.
LOL

As if we haven't been flooded with those people since 1968.

[ATruepatriot]

I've been around the world more than once and this is very true.

They watch too much PBS glorifying these inhumane failed states...

[RJB]

It's only a difference of degree and timing. We're moving toward the same kind of crisis as they've experienced, with people (native born, mostly white people) voting for ever-larger government, every election. Each country's politics are a little different for random reasons: some particularly charismatic politician happens to born there rather than there, that country happens to have some exogenous crisis while this country doesn't, whatever. The basic trend is the same.

That's talk with no backing of facts. You sound like Brian Stelter reading a teleprompter for CNN. California elected Ronald Reagan as governor. He wasn't perfect, but he wouldn't stand a chance against Bernie Sanders in an election in CA in modern times. That is totally due to demographic changes.

[r3volution 3.0]

That's talk with no backing of facts. You sound like Brian Stelter reading a teleprompter for CNN. California elected Ronald Reagan as governor. He wasn't perfect, but he wouldn't stand a chance against Bernie Sanders in an election in CA in modern times. That is totally due to demographic changes.

Reagan vastly increased government spending, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[RJB]

Reagan vastly increased government spending, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Can you see the difference between Hugo Chavez's regime in Venezuela and Ronald Reagan's Regime in the US? As big government as Reagan may have been, modern California would prefer Bernie Sanders over Reagan.

[Swordsmyth]

Reagan vastly increased government spending, so I'm not sure what your point is.

50=/=50,000 even though both are greater than 5.

You are comparing crab apples to watermelons.

[r3volution 3.0]

Can you see the difference between Hugo Chavez's regime in Venezuela and Ronald Reagan's Regime in the US? As big government as Reagan may have been, modern California would prefer Bernie Sanders over Reagan.


50=/=50,000 even though both are greater than 5.

You are comparing crab apples to watermelons.

Meh, see posts above.

[RJB]

Meh, see posts above.
So I take it Rev33 would be as happier living in Saudi Arabia or Venezuela, because the USA is too oppressive for him. Because all governments are the same, unless they are monarchies, of course.

[Anti Federalist]

I never get an answer to this...I know why of course.

World weary and cynical globatarians and leftarians of all stripes don't care.

They know what is going to happen...and many of them celebrate it, cheer it on.

Having no posterity, for any number of reasons from bone idleness to adopting sodomy as a lifestyle choice, to pass on the blessing of liberty to, they are out of the fight.

They don't care if coming generations of people like them are reduced to third class citizen status...it won't hurt them in the here and now.

They are the perfect embodiment of the disconnected, unknowing, unthinking, cosmopolitan, "Atomized Man"...hapless, hopeless and helpless with no idea of who they are, other than a trace remnant of a vile, repressive, racist past, with no discernible future, just an endless "present" of pseudo authoritarian control and rigid rules.



Why don't you ask these guys how unlimited immigration, into a borderless world, of people hostile to them and their traditions and cultures and heritage...ask them how it worked out.

https://etc.usf.edu/clipart/5600/5682/sioux_1_lg.gif

[Swordsmyth]

I never get an answer to this...I know why of course.

World weary and cynical globatarians and leftarians of all stripes don't care.

They know what is going to happen...and many of them celebrate it, cheer it on.

Having no posterity, for any number of reasons from bone idleness to adopting sodomy as a lifestyle choice, to pass on the blessing of liberty to, they are out of the fight.

They don't care if coming generations of people like them are reduced to third class citizen status...it won't hurt them in the here and now.

They are the perfect embodiment of the disconnected, unknowing, unthinking, cosmopolitan, "Atomized Man"...hapless, hopeless and helpless with no idea of who they are, other than a trace remnant of a vile, repressive, racist past, with no discernible future, just an endless "present" of pseudo authoritarian control and rigid rules.
If we lose they will be among the first to be actively genocided.

[eleganz]

Yeah, sure libertarians; start with the most pie-in-the-sky issue and see how many converts you make. :rolleyes:

Many libertarians have no marketing or business sense. Focusing, or even addressing, this issue is a sure fire way for newcomers to instantly reject freedom.

There are plenty of other issues to address. Focus on something else.

clueless LiBROtarians, the great ideological isolationists of our time.

Look what open borders did to the Europeans.

[Anti Federalist]

So I take it Rev33 would be as happier living in Saudi Arabia or Venezuela, because the USA is too oppressive for him. Because all governments are the same, unless they are monarchies, of course.

Basically yes.

Stay out of his way to make a quick buck and, well so fucking what if kids are eating zoo animals to survive. Caracas or Cuyahoga...makes no difference to him.

And up goes the balloon: "WTF AF, that kid isn't mine to take of!"

No, he isn't, nor mine. But he is someone's kid. And that kid will grow up, assuming he survives. And before you know it, that kid is marching in the street with a Molotov cocktail. And that kid is eyeballing YOUR shit and figuring he'll just come and take it.

The fastest way to keep that from happening is free market capitalism.

But we can not keep free market capitalism when tens of millions of kids just like that have invaded and vote, in MASSIVE numbers for a communist in CA.

I keep hearing from the globaltarians that "education" is the answer.

Well, fine, I agree...but education takes a long time...and it's pointless to educate one and have ten more that think just the opposite invade across the border.

Shut it down.

Ten year moratorium...give us a chance to get our shit together and do that educating.

[Anti Federalist]

If we lose they will be among the first to be actively genocided.

I realize that as well, and they don't care about that either.

It's all part of this cult of death...like they would look forward to it, they are so bored with life.

[Swordsmyth]

Basically yes.

Stay out of his way to make a quick buck and, well so $#@!ing what if kids are eating zoo animals to survive. Caracas or Cuyahoga...makes no difference to him.

And up goes the balloon: "WTF AF, that kid isn't mine to take of!"

No, he isn't, nor mine. But he is someone's kid. And that kid will grow up, assuming he survives. And before you know it, that kid is marching in the street with a Molotov cocktail. And that kid is eyeballing YOUR $#@! and figuring he'll just come and take it.

The fastest way to keep that from happening is free market capitalism.

But we can not keep free market capitalism when tens of millions of kids just like that have invaded and vote, in MASSIVE numbers for a communist in CA.

I keep hearing from the globaltarians that "education" is the answer.

Well, fine, I agree...but education takes a long time...and it's pointless to educate one and have ten more that think just the opposite invade across the border.

Shut it down.

Ten year moratorium...give us a chance to get our $#@! together and do that educating.
Then review the situation and extend it each decade until we are much closer to where we should be than we are now.

And have sharp numerical and cultural limits when we open up again.

[Swordsmyth]

I realize that as well, and they don't care about that either.

It's all part of this cult of death...like they would look forward to it, they are so bored with life.
I was thinking off adding that perhaps that is what they want deep in the dark recesses of their minds.

[Anti Federalist]

I was thinking off adding that perhaps that is what they want deep in the dark recesses of their minds.

I'm convinced of it.

It's why so many of folks of that political stripe are so full of hate and anger...an I know that sounds hypocritical coming from me, but some of these people are off their rockers.

[RJB]

I keep hearing from the globaltarians that "education" is the answer.

Well, fine, I agree...but education takes a long time...and it's pointless to educate one and have ten more that think just the opposite invade across the border.

Shut it down.

Ten year moratorium...give us a chance to get our shit together and do that educating.

Hell. They must never have had kids. I have a hard enough time passing it down to my own kids and they expect us to go door to door like Jehovah Witnesses and proselytize free markets to people who don't speak English and received 12 years of indoctrination about how evil Americans are as they scramble to live here to change us.

[r3volution 3.0]

I never get an answer to this...I know why of course.

It's been explained to you innumerable times that immigration doesn't entail slaughter of the natives, despite this being so obvious that it shouldn't require explanation. Can you possibly imagine a situation in which a person travels from point A on the globe to point B without killing whoever lives at point B? I don't know about you, but when I drive to another town for work or pleasure, I don't slaughter everyone I meet.

Shocking, I know.


World weary and cynical globatarians and leftarians of all stripes don't care.

They know what is going to happen...and many of them celebrate it, cheer it on.

Having no posterity, for any number of reasons from bone idleness to adopting sodomy as a lifestyle choice, to pass on the blessing of liberty to, they are out of the fight.

They don't care if coming generations of people like them are reduced to third class citizen status...it won't hurt them in the here and now.

They are the perfect embodiment of the disconnected, unknowing, unthinking, cosmopolitan, "Atomized Man"...hapless, hopeless and helpless with no idea of who they are, other than a trace remnant of a vile, repressive, racist past, with no discernible future, just an endless "present" of pseudo authoritarian control and rigid rules.

People such as yourself, who I appreciate are well intended, simply don't understand the nature of the problem.

It isn't about moral decline or demographics or anything of that sort.

It's just basic economics as applied to politics.

This political system generates socialism.

[Swordsmyth]

It's been explained to you innumerable times that immigration doesn't entail slaughter of the natives, despite this being so obvious that it shouldn't require explanation. Can you possibly imagine a situation in which a person travels from point A on the globe to point B without killing whoever lives at point B? I don't know about you, but when I drive to another town for work or pleasure, I don't slaughter everyone I meet.

Shocking, I know.
Conquests by communists always do.




People such as yourself, who I appreciate are well intended, simply don't understand the nature of the problem.

It isn't about moral decline or demographics or anything of that sort.

It's just basic economics as applied to politics.

This political system generates socialism.

That's nonsense.

[r3volution 3.0]

clueless LiBROtarians, the great ideological isolationists of our time.

Look what open borders did to the Europeans.

Yea, that's Europe problem: contra, for instance, the birth of socialism, nationalism, and two world wars (with not a foreigner in sight).

[Swordsmyth]

Yea, that's Europe problem: contra, for instance, the birth of socialism, nationalism, and two world wars (with not a foreigner in sight).
What the invaders will bring will make all of that look small.

[r3volution 3.0]

To revisit @Anti Federalist (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=3169)'s point about alleged "globatarian" indifference or aimlessness or cynicism, that's not my position anyway. I'm not saying it's hopeless, give up. I'm saying electoral politics are hopeless, give up on that, and focus on something that can actually produce results in the long-run: namely, building up a libertarian infrastructure in civil society. Create schools, think tanks, charities, fraternal organizations, etc, as the left has done with great success. This would be the alternative to pissing away one's time and energy supporting the ever so slightly lesser evil in the two party system. In other words, stop buying lottery tickets and make some long-term investments.

That would be actual chess, not the sort played in imaginary dimensions.

[Swordsmyth]

To revisit @Anti Federalist (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=3169)'s point about alleged "globatarian" indifference or aimlessness or cynicism, that's not my position anyway. I'm not saying it's hopeless, give up. I'm saying electoral politics are hopeless, give up on that, and focus on something that can actually produce results in the long-run: namely, building up a libertarian infrastructure in civil society. Create schools, think tanks, charities, fraternal organizations, etc, as the left has done with great success. This would be the alternative to pissing away one's time and energy supporting the ever so slightly lesser evil in the two party system. In other words, stop buying lottery tickets and make some long-term investments.

That would be actual chess, not the sort played in imaginary dimensions.
That's fine if you wish to pursue that angle.

But if some of us don't deal with politics and immigration you and your fellows will be killed and your books burned, everything you seek to create will be lost to the world and erased from history.

[Anti Federalist]

It's been explained to you innumerable times that immigration doesn't entail slaughter of the natives, despite this being so obvious that it shouldn't require explanation. Can you possibly imagine a situation in which a person travels from point A on the globe to point B without killing whoever lives at point B? I don't know about you, but when I drive to another town for work or pleasure, I don't slaughter everyone I meet.

I'm not talking about "a" person.

I'm talking about tens of millions, motivated by agents that are enemies of this nation and it's people.

I'm talking about tens of millions that have been taught that everything wrong in their lives is the fault of the ones who were already here.

That is a recipe for genocide that has been used thousands of times in history.

[Anti Federalist]

To revisit @Anti Federalist (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=3169)'s point about alleged "globatarian" indifference or aimlessness or cynicism, that's not my position anyway. I'm not saying it's hopeless, give up. I'm saying electoral politics are hopeless, give up on that, and focus on something that can actually produce results in the long-run: namely, building up a libertarian infrastructure in civil society. Create schools, think tanks, charities, fraternal organizations, etc, as the left has done with great success. This would be the alternative to pissing away one's time and energy supporting the ever so slightly lesser evil in the two party system. In other words, stop buying lottery tickets and make some long-term investments.

That would be actual chess, not the sort played in imaginary dimensions.

I happen to do both...and work in the local political realm.

I'm all for it.

[r3volution 3.0]

That's fine if you wish to pursue that angle.

But if some of us don't deal with politics and immigration you and your fellows will be killed and your books burned, everything you seek to create will be lost to the world and erased from history.

If that's going to happen, it's going to be at the hands of one of the domestic socialist groups, GOP or Dem.

...or, as they will be known in future, the National Socialist American Workers Party and the Union of Soviet Socialist Shemales.

I'm not worried about the foreigners.


I'm not talking about "a" person.

I'm talking about tens of millions, motivated by agents that are enemies of this nation and it's people.

I'm talking about tens of millions that have been taught that everything wrong in their lives is the fault of the ones who were already here.

That is a recipe for genocide that has been used thousands of times in history.

I don't see how that describes reality.


I happen to do both...and work in the local political realm.

I'm all for it.

Glad to hear it, but I don't think most people can multi-task like that.

So long as Trump (or whoever it is next) is seen as reMAGAficating the country, that's going to be the focus for most people.

[devil21]

Look over there! Shiny thing!

Now that Donald and Congress are pushing out crap-loads of socialist legislation redistributing trillions of dollars, shutting down small businesses, implementing socialist police state measures, it's time to post a brown person scapegoating thread, warning about the dangers of immigrants supporting socialism!

Do some of you people hear yourselves??? It's the average American cheering on the vast redistribution of wealth, cheering on the increasing police state, etc. But it's immigrants that will bring us down??? Get real. It's our own people that are bringing this thing down while immigrants are scapegoated. Same as it ever was.



I don't understand "libertarians" who support open borders. Closed borders protects private property owners on the border from trespassing by foreigners. The constitution gives the federal government the responsibility to protect our rights. Including our property rights.

The Constitution also doesn't treat people themselves as property, either, but that's the legal basis of what makes someone a "legal" citizen or an "illegal" immigrant. A "legal" or "documented" citizen literally means someone is the jurisdictional property of the federal government corporation. The writers of the Constitution had no concept of what the federal legalese monster has become and the concept of a "citizen" is hugely different today than when the document was written.


eta: On the article itself, I'm very glad to see Hornberger catching some momentum. He's the right candidate for the LP nomination. A serious scholar that is actually electable and is a real Libertarian, not another fake Beltway controlled opposition candidate.

[TheCount]

I know plenty of Latinos that do not support more immigration of any kind. But yes, they are probably outnumbered by the La Raza segment, that wants immigration from south of the border, but not from Asia.

Like whites who want immigration from Europe and South Africa (but only the right kinds of Europeans and South Africans) but not from south of the border or from Asia (except maybe the right kinds of Asians)?

We have some of those right here on the forum. They're quite prolific posters.



Tribalists gonna be tribal.

[Brian4Liberty]

Like whites who want immigration from Europe and South Africa (but only the right kinds of Europeans and South Africans) but not from south of the border or from Asia (except maybe the right kinds of Asians)?

We have some of those right here on the forum. They're quite prolific posters.

Tribalists gonna be tribal.

Human nature.

Some are more tribal than others. Some people are not very tribal at all. Some tribes are very open about their tribal preferences, and find it strange that other tribes don’t do the same. Some tribes are very tribal, but hide it. Some people like to virtue signal about how non-tribal they are, and range from honestly non-tribal to secretly super-tribal.

[Brian4Liberty]

Look over there! Shiny thing!

Now that Donald and Congress are pushing out crap-loads of socialist legislation redistributing trillions of dollars, shutting down small businesses, implementing socialist police state measures, it's time to post a brown person scapegoating thread, warning about the dangers of immigrants supporting socialism!

Do some of you people hear yourselves??? It's the average American cheering on the vast redistribution of wealth, cheering on the increasing police state, etc. But it's immigrants that will bring us down??? Get real. It's our own people that are bringing this thing down while immigrants are scapegoated. Same as it ever was.

Can’t talk about Coronavirus all day, or the government response. Old issues remain the same. But most people here are adamantly opposed to government bailouts. We could try to organize a Congress feedback campaign. Call your Congresspeople kind of thing? Would you like to spearhead that?


eta: On the article itself, I'm very glad to see Hornberger catching some momentum. He's the right candidate for the LP nomination. A serious scholar that is actually electable and is a real Libertarian, not another fake Beltway controlled opposition candidate.

I tend to agree, Hornberger may be the best option, even if I don’t agree with him on one issue. That is not the only issue of importance.

[devil21]

Can’t talk about Coronavirus all day, or the government response. Old issues remain the same. But most people here are adamantly opposed to government bailouts. We could try to organize a Congress feedback campaign. Call your Congresspeople kind of thing? Would you like to spearhead that?

I think strongly worded letters are AF's and TheTexan's pet projects, not mine.




I tend to agree, Hornberger may be the best option, even if I don’t agree with him on one issue. That is not the only issue of importance.

Absolutely not. Howls about the dangers of immigrants bringing socialism with them, while the politicians that were voted in by mostly non-immigrants pass, by far, the most socialist legislation seen since The New Deal, ring pretty hollow and reek of base scapegoating.

[Anti Federalist]

Absolutely not. Howls about the dangers of immigrants bringing socialism with them, while the politicians that were voted in by mostly non-immigrants pass, by far, the most socialist legislation seen since The New Deal, ring pretty hollow and reek of base scapegoating.

"Blue states" with high immigrant populations are the ones enacting the most Draconian of responses to the Corona Crazy.

Yes, I am well aware of the raw numbers voting.

I'm talking about ratios.

New migrant invaders vote overwhelmingly for bigger and more intrusive government.

This is a fact...ignore at your peril.

[devil21]

"Blue states" with high immigrant populations are the ones enacting the most Draconian of responses to the Corona Crazy.

Yes, I am well aware of the raw numbers voting.

I'm talking about ratios.

New migrant invaders vote overwhelmingly for bigger and more intrusive government.

This is a fact...ignore at your peril.

I don't feel any peril since I'm not easily manipulated by emotional triggers like racial identity fear.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't feel any peril since I'm not easily manipulated by emotional triggers like racial identity fear.

You peril metric may be higher.

YMMV