Help me convert this voter! I need some tax info

[justinc.1089]

This person will be easy to sway, they just want some info on how Paul is going to have enough money to keep the gov. functioning without the income tax. I need something that looks official you know, that I can hand to them about it. I'm going to give them a Freedom to Fascism dvd too so that they understand the income tax better, but that doesn't take care of the part of about how to get money for the gov. without income tax.

I told them already I think if I remember right that even without the income tax the gov.'s total income would still be the same as what it was back in 2001. But they just want something they can hold in their hand you know? Its just that common misperception that a lot of people seem to have that the gov. functions off of income tax mainly.

I just need something to print off that I can give to them and we should have their vote because they already agree on Paul's abortion view and foreign policy view, and probably other things too.

I need this by tomorrow morning preferably, before 9 et, but if I don't have it I can just get this person's email I suppose and email it to them since I know them. But I would rather have it to give to them in person when I see them. Thanks to anyone that knows of anything. :)

[justinc.1089]

blimp bump

lets get this vote people! I need help here

[Knightskye]

Ron said on the Tonight Show, I believe, that if you got rid of the income tax, you'd only get rid of 40% of the government's revenue. He'd save that by bringing our troops home from 130 countries, and shutting down unnecessary agencies and departments in this country.

I'm having a bit of difficulty finding it in print, but Ron taks about it all the time in video. Would your friend mind watching a YouTube video?

[Anti Federalist]

Google: Percentage of federal revenue from personal income taxes

In 2006 it came to 44% if I'm not mistaken for a total of 950 billion

The third largest federal expense is interest on the debt. Sound money alone would eliminate 500 billion right there.

[justinc.1089]

Ron said on the Tonight Show, I believe, that if you got rid of the income tax, you'd only get rid of 40% of the government's revenue. He'd save that by bringing our troops home from 130 countries, and shutting down unnecessary agencies and departments in this country.

I'm having a bit of difficulty finding it in print, but Ron taks about it all the time in video. Would your friend mind watching a YouTube video?

Maybe, maybe not, I'm not really sure to be honest. I don't think they would have used youtube before for sure, but if I have to email it to them I will certainly give them some youtube video links.

I would prefer to find something about this in print though, and like you said its kind of hard to find.

[dircha]

Here's the official campaign's radio ad on eliminating the IRS and the personal income tax and replacing it with nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkPUeFtLrPM

[justinc.1089]

Google: Percentage of federal revenue from personal income taxes

In 2006 it came to 44% if I'm not mistaken for a total of 950 billion

The third largest federal expense is interest on the debt. Sound money alone would eliminate 500 billion right there.

Link please? So I can print that off.

I'm also going to need possible ways of replacing that 40% because I have a feeling this person will not think you can just cut out 40% of the budget.

Maybe someone knows about how much 40% of the budget would be, and how much money we would save by bringing our troops home? I know thats a staggering amount of money, so I can probably just use that.

Mainly I just need a couple of things to print off, how much money the income tax is and percentage wise, and how we can fund the gov. the same basically without the income tax, and I'm sure bringing home our troops from bases worldwide would solve that right?

[justinc.1089]

Does anyone have some links to some stuff I can print off?

Youtube videos are nice and all but they aren't something you can hand someone to read.....

[beobeli]

http://www.thebudgetgraph.com/site/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1&zenid=02792ee76480de83f1149cc03b2f17f0

This is the current government spending picture. To cut out the income tax you need to save $900B somewhere. By the way, income tax is only used to pay down interest on the national debt. It does not fund any of the "services". Don't forget that there is also corporate and other taxes that contribute to the pot. Income tax is only one component. Much of income is sheltered off-shore outside of the reach of IRS. To have that money be spent in the country you need to eliminate the taxation. Just imaging how many new investments, innovations, businesses, good jobs would result if those dollars were in the country and invested.

[justinc.1089]

http://www.thebudgetgraph.com/site/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1&zenid=02792ee76480de83f1149cc03b2f17f0

This is the current government spending picture. To cut out the income tax you need to save $900B somewhere. By the way, income tax is only used to pay down interest on the national debt. It does not fund any of the "services". Don't forget that there is also corporate and other taxes that contribute to the pot. Income tax is only one component. Much of income is sheltered off-shore outside of the reach of IRS. To have that money be spent in the country you need to eliminate the taxation. Just imaging how many new investments, innovations, businesses, good jobs would result if those dollars were in the country and invested.

And our expense on bases around the world is about $2 trillion isn't it? So wouldn't ending that end the need for the income tax?

If so I've got what I need now thanks to your help!

[justinc.1089]

blimp bump

[Cleaner44]

What you need is the Grace Commision report.
http://www.afasic.com/graceCommissionReport.html

I have seen a PDF of the actual document and I am looking for it. Until then check this site.

[dircha]

This has come up before on the forums, and while I think there is a quote with numbers from Dr. Paul sometime last Spring, I don't think there is any concrete proposal like a budget, and there's some ambiguity in just which numbers to even use to make the comparison.

Sorry. I don't think you'll be able to find this in a nice document forum.

Basically I think you're going to be comparing 2006 personal income tax receipts vs total 2006 receipts and then vs total, say, total 1996 receipts, and 2006 personal income tax receipts should be about 40% of total 2006 receipts, and total 1996 receipts should be about 60% of total 2006 receipts.

As I recall it doesn't work out so cleanly when you compare budget vs personal income tax receipts, so make sure you're comparing personal income tax receipts vs total receipts, not vs budget.

[justinc.1089]

This has come up before on the forums, and while I think there is a quote with numbers from Dr. Paul sometime last Spring, I don't think there is any concrete proposal like a budget, and there's some ambiguity in just which numbers to even use to make the comparison.

Sorry. I don't think you'll be able to find this in a nice document forum.

Basically I think you're going to be comparing 2006 personal income tax receipts vs total 2006 receipts and then vs total, say, total 1996 receipts, and 2006 personal income tax receipts should be about 40% of total 2006 receipts, and total 1996 receipts should be about 60% of total 2006 receipts.

As I recall it doesn't work out so cleanly when you compare budget vs personal income tax receipts, so make sure you're comparing personal income tax receipts vs total receipts, not vs budget.

It doesn't need to be that technical lol. The person is just wondering the same thing lots of people wonder that I have talked to, how the gov. will run without the income tax, but other people just haven't asked for information because what I said was enough for them.

It just needs to be anything I can print off any site showing something like the amount of money the income tax was, the total budget, things Paul wants to get rid off that will cut out that much money, etc.

In other words one thing that would be fine would be this: If the income tax is X amount of dollars, and our foreign policy is X amount of dollars, then we can get rid of the income tax by not spending X amount of dollars on our foreign policy.

I think that would be the way to go too because this person is opposed to being in Iraq.

[Jobarra]

One easy point to make is... Does the Federal government pay the city and state for everything they do? Alot of people just assume the Federal government because of it's various departments MUST be there to help them. The State and Local governments actually take care of most of their day to day functions. And that is one reason to get rid of the Department of Education. I've read that even money that comes from the DoE comes through LOCAL sources.

For the IRS question: Could Ron Paul Really Abolish the IRS? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx20spGSRYk)

[justinc.1089]

What you need is the Grace Commision report.
http://www.afasic.com/graceCommissionReport.html

I have seen a PDF of the actual document and I am looking for it. Until then check this site.

Good work, this should be more than good enough. Thanks a lot!:D

[justinc.1089]

One easy point to make is... Does the Federal government pay the city and state for everything they do? Alot of people just assume the Federal government because of it's various departments MUST be there to help them. The State and Local governments actually take care of most of their day to day functions. And that is one reason to get rid of the Department of Education. I've read that even money that comes from the DoE comes through LOCAL sources.

For the IRS question: Could Ron Paul Really Abolish the IRS? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx20spGSRYk)

I'm really trying not to bring up the DOE with this person, because I will have the same problem, having to explain every little detail to them. If it comes up I will of course, but I don't expect it to so I would rather just not bring it up lol.

The Grace Report should be more than good enough.

[kevinblack]

Here is the budget information for the last few years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

United States federal budget, 2006 - $2.7 trillion (submitted 2005 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2005 - $2.4 trillion (submitted 2004 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2004 - $2.3 trillion (submitted 2003 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2003 - $2.2 trillion (submitted 2002 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2002 - $2.0 trillion (submitted 2001 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2001 - $1.9 trillion (submitted 2000 by President Clinton)
United States federal budget, 2000 - $1.8 trillion (submitted 1999 by President Clinton)



Here is the income generated in 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget%2C_2006

$966.9 billion (44.4%) - Individual income tax
$818.8 billion (37.6%) - Social Security and other payroll taxes
$220.3 billion (10.1%) - Corporate income tax
$75.6 billion (3.5%) - Excise taxes
$26.1 billion (1.2%) - Estate and gift taxes
$28.3 billion (1.3%) - Customs duties
$41.6 billion (1.9%) - Other

If we get our expending back to year 2000 levels we will save 900Billion dollars. The income tax is 900Billion dollars. If we cut the expending and cut the income tax we will be no worse off than we are right now.

[justinc.1089]

Here is the budget information for the last few years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

United States federal budget, 2006 - $2.7 trillion (submitted 2005 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2005 - $2.4 trillion (submitted 2004 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2004 - $2.3 trillion (submitted 2003 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2003 - $2.2 trillion (submitted 2002 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2002 - $2.0 trillion (submitted 2001 by President Bush)
United States federal budget, 2001 - $1.9 trillion (submitted 2000 by President Clinton)
United States federal budget, 2000 - $1.8 trillion (submitted 1999 by President Clinton)



Here is the income generated in 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget%2C_2006

$966.9 billion (44.4%) - Individual income tax
$818.8 billion (37.6%) - Social Security and other payroll taxes
$220.3 billion (10.1%) - Corporate income tax
$75.6 billion (3.5%) - Excise taxes
$26.1 billion (1.2%) - Estate and gift taxes
$28.3 billion (1.3%) - Customs duties
$41.6 billion (1.9%) - Other

If we get our expending back to year 2000 levels we will save 900Billion dollars. The income tax is 900Billion dollars. If we cut the expending and cut the income tax we will be no worse off than we are right now.

Thanks I will use that info too. With all of that AND the Grace Report, any concerns the person has will be put to rest lol.

[kevinblack]

You should also point out that it is

ABSOLUTELLY INSANE

That the budget has grown as much as our ENTIRE income tax in just six years.

This December 16 give till it hurts!

[beobeli]

Or, how about this math...

There is $268B farm bill on the table partially approved by both the house and the Senate. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-farm_satdec15,1,23318.story I am not really sure why this subsidy should exist, but let's say it is to motivate farmers to own land and perhaps make food. (Is this ridiculous statement, or what?)

Assuming that there are about 303M people in the US, this subsidy is about $885 per person per year.

Now, say $B is about 1/3 of annual income tax collected. By cutting this bill you could cut your tax bill by 1/3. Let's say that an average family income is $50,000/year. And let's say that the income tax bill for such a family is about $9,000/year. So if the farm subsidy was cut, it would save 1/3 of the income tax or about $3000/year per family. Average family size in the U.S. is about 3. Therefore, the tax savings is about $1000/person/year, which is more than $893/person/year the government distributes through the farm subsidy.

But the fallacy is that most people loose $1000 in extra taxes and never get anything out of the farm bill. It just goes to someone else's pockets (with about 12.5% waste to bureaucracy). Is this fair? Or is it stupid? Does it result in more abundant food that wouldn't be there otherwise? Is food cheaper because of these subsidies. I would say "no" and "no".

Can someone who is more familiar with farm subsidies point to one benefit of the farm subsidies and also provide an illustration what would happen if the subsidy wasn't there?

[angrydragon]

http://www.cbo.gov/

[McLane2007]

"100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal debt and by Federal Government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services which taxpayers expect from their Government."

- Grace Commission

[Jobarra]

Well, if you DO want the specifics, here is apparently the 2007 budget analysis:
I hope you're an accountant (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/pdf/spec.pdf)

I think that the total expenditures is on page 339(351 in the pdf). Table 21-1.

If I'm reading this correctly, the Executive Branch currently spends 2.719 TRILLION dollars a year compared to the Legislative Branch spending 4 BILLION and the Judicial Branch spending 5 BILLION.

The biggest 'offenders' in the Executive Branch?
1) Department of Health and Human Services - 625.5 Billion dollars(Medicare and Medicaid I take it?)
2) Social Security Administration - $569B(well, we know what this is)
3) Department of Defense - $487B
4) Department of the Treasury - $425.5B(huh? Is this a debt payment?)
5) Department of Agriculture - $106.8B(Subsidies?)
6) Department of Veteran Affairs - $75B(Weird, I would think this would be under the DoD)
7) Department of Education - $74B
8) Office of Personnel Management - $69B(No idea what these guys do. Human Resources for the government?)
9) Postal Service - $67B(Really? I wonder how much money they make. Something just doesn't seem right)
10) Department of Transportation - $57B(This can be handled by the states)

Edit to Add:
Interesting stuff in there. Total Non-Postal Civilians employed by the Executive Branch is 1,867,654 people. (717,000 postal workers)
So the Federal government pays the salary of just about 1 in every 150 people. Am I just crazy or is that WAY too many people. Oh, and there's a postal worker for every 418 people(assuming a population of 300 million)

[voiceactivated]

Nobody has answered the question, and I would like to know too. Where exactly does the other 60% of the country's funds come from? Please be specific. Thanks.

[kevinblack]

Nobody has answered the question, and I would like to know too. Where exactly does the other 60% of the country's funds come from? Please be specific. Thanks.

I just answered this exact question, it is in the previous page.
Here is the highlights:


Here is the income generated in 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...budget%2C_2006

$966.9 billion (44.4%) - Individual income tax
$818.8 billion (37.6%) - Social Security and other payroll taxes
$220.3 billion (10.1%) - Corporate income tax
$75.6 billion (3.5%) - Excise taxes
$26.1 billion (1.2%) - Estate and gift taxes
$28.3 billion (1.3%) - Customs duties
$41.6 billion (1.9%) - Other

[literatim]

We need to get rid of the estate and gift taxes with the income tax.

[areyou4real]

This is what I wrote up to give to people. I think it gets the message across clearly:

I truly believe that what I am about to share with you is vitally important to the future of our nation. Please take a moment to read it over thoroughly. Thank you.

----------------

Did you know that we as a nation have a national debt of over $9.1 trillion dollars? That's over $30,000 per person. What's more, the debt is only going to get larger as more and more baby-boomers start to retire and it could eventually cause the collapse of our great nation, if we don’t change course. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22081728/from/ET/ & http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/News/FedsBudgetTricksHideTrillionsInDebt.aspx

Did you know that the interest payments alone on the debt totaled over $429 billion in 2007? That's 18 cents out of every tax dollar collected in 2006! http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm

The Treasury (Federal Reserve) cannot print more money and exceed a fixed debt ceiling set by Congress. However, did you know that the House of Representatives raises the ceiling automatically whenever the Treasury asks without a single vote being cast? You heard right, the House set it up so they don’t even need to vote on raising the debt ceiling, it simply happens automatically. It’s complete madness! http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5282521

Did you know that if we returned to a federal budget level of just 7 years ago, the IRS could be completely eliminated? You heard me correct, there would be no need for an individual federal income tax, if we simply returned to 2000 federal budget levels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

I don't know about you, but I am shocked and appalled that our federally elected officials have been so fiscally irresponsible with our tax dollars! They have put the very future of our nation in jeopardy with their recklessness. http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=4406.2650.0.0

So how did it get this bad? It's simple . . . we have a federal government that refuses to spend within its means.

You also may be thinking to yourself . . . why should I care? . . . it's only on paper. Unfortunately, that's just not true; there are real consequences for all Americans.

First, just think how $429 billion dollars a year could be spent on helping actual Americans rather than just paying for interest on $9.1 trillion dollars of debt?

Second, every time the Federal Reserve prints more dollars out of thin air to cover the ever-increasing spending, the dollars held/made by you and I become worth less and less. This happens indirectly through inflation and is simple economics. Prices increase and you and I are forced to pay more for everything we buy because of this foolishness. This is also precisely why the US dollar is hitting 30-year lows against the Canadian dollar and all-time lows against the Euro. http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070920/dollar.html

Why am I telling you this? I'm telling you this because I don't think very many people out there really know about this and how bad it has actually gotten. I am also telling you this because we finally have a chance to change course for real. We can elect a President in 2008 that will truly do something about this and his name is Dr. Ron Paul.

Check out these great videos about Dr. Paul to see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIivoqLbeeg & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG_HuFtP8w8

As President, Dr. Paul will balance the budget, eliminate the Federal Reserve, and eliminate the IRS, so that we can keep more of our hard-earned money to save or spend as we wish. As commander-in-chief, Dr. Paul will also bring the troops home from Iraq.

As a 10-term Congressman, Dr. Paul also has the voting record to prove it:

He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.
He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.
He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

What’s more, since Dr. Paul’s allegiance lies with the US Constitution, he cannot be bought. Unlike most other politicians in Washington, Dr. Paul has integrity and his record proves it.

I would highly encourage you to check out Dr. Paul for yourself . . . you may just like what you find. I know I sure did. http://www.ronpaul2008.com/ & http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/

Thanks for your time.

[stewie3128]

And our expense on bases around the world is about $2 trillion isn't it? So wouldn't ending that end the need for the income tax?

It's nowhere near $2 trillion - the total Fed outlays for FY 2007 is "only" $2.568 trillion, so funding overseas bases could not possibly cost $2 trillion of that.

[angrydragon]

http://www.cbo.gov/budget/data/historical.pdf

A $21 Trillion Tax Cut

http://www.mises.org/story/633

Real Tax Reform

http://www.mises.org/story/2552

The Myth of the Replacement Tax

http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=356

"The rule: all taxes that are abolished should be replaced with nothing but the freedom to keep what is ours."

The Origin of the Income Tax

http://www.mises.org/story/1597

[Jobarra]

Ugh... that graph is sobering on the front page of the cbo.gov angrydragon. I love how they excluded the debt service from it.

In the white house budget that I linked to above, they project 11.5 Trillion in debt by 2011. It grows by 500B a year. I still don't see how people aren't more concerned about that.