According to Ron Paul Congress declares war on Iran with sanctions [Archive]

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Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 05:47 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIO-4v8qpYc&feature=player_embedded#!

Warlord

01-15-2020, 05:52 PM

Misleading title.
.
There has been no declaration or authorization.

'it makes no sense', he says

nikcers

01-15-2020, 05:55 PM

Misleading title.
.
There has been no declaration or authorization.

'it makes no sense', he says

"Sanctions are literally an act of war" he has said this about 70,000 times in 30 years

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 05:56 PM

Misleading title.
.
There has been no declaration or authorization.

'it makes no sense', he says
He says that Congress voted for an act of war against Iran, that's the same thing as a declaration.

19:57
"A declaration of war again does not necessarily mean a piece of paper that says 'we have declared war against you', under the founders' understanding war is declared when there are actions that create a war"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GsCdbBZy-U&feature=youtu.be

And they have declared themselves at war with us:

The IRGC declares itself to be at war with us.

The new leader of Iran’s (https://www.foxnews.com/category/world/conflicts/iran) Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps' elite Quds Force (https://www.foxnews.com/world/what-is-the-quds-force-the-elite-iranian-military-unit) once boasted that U.S. troops have “suffered more losses from us than we have suffered losses from them” and has repeatedly ripped President Trump and America’s allies.
Brigadier Gen. Esmail Qaani, 62, now spearheads the special military unit following the death of Gen. Qassem Soleimani, who was killed Thursday in a U.S. airstrike (https://www.foxnews.com/world/rockets-baghdad-airport-injuries-reported) at Baghdad International Airport in Iraq. He had served as Soleimani’s deputy commander since 1997 – and the Treasury Department says he has used his power to direct funding toward terrorist groups like Hezbollah.
Qaani, like many other Iranian government and military officials, also has a history of making hostile and inflammatory statements against the U.S.
“America has suffered more losses from us than we have suffered losses from them,” the Middle East Institute (https://www.mei.edu/publications/quds-force-commander-weve-inflicted-more-losses-america-its-done-us) quoted him as saying during a 2017 ceremony in commemoration of Iranian forces and Iranian-backed militias battling in Syria and Iraq.

More at: https://www.foxnews.com/world/esmail...ce-iran-us-foe (https://www.foxnews.com/world/esmail-qaani-quds-force-iran-us-foe)

The original IRANIAN source:
https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1...AF%D9%87%D8%AF (https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1396/04/22/1463767/%D8%A2%D9%85%D8%B1%DB%8C%DA%A9%D8%A7-%D8%A8%D8%A7-6%D9%87%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%DB%8C%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%AF-%D8%AF%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%87%D8%B2%DB%8C%D9%86%D9%87-%D9%87%DB%8C%DA%86-%D8%A7%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%B9%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%87-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%86%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%B3%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%85-%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%AF)

Translated:
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"The war we have with the United States has been successful in standing up and resisting in the country because we are in the province," Qaani said

He was a uniformed member and leader of an organization that brags about being at war with us and killing us, he was in Iraq while our people were being killed and our embassy was attacked and was accompanying uniformed members and leaders of the groups carrying out those attacks, groups that his group helped to create, fund and direct.

angelatc

01-15-2020, 06:02 PM

Must suck living in a state where straws are banned when you're grasping at them.

His point is that sanctions are an act of war, so if we are going to incite war we need to declare it. It's like you've never heard a single word he said.

Warlord

01-15-2020, 06:02 PM

He says that Congress voted for an act of war against Iran, that's the same thing as a declaration.

He said the sanctions were an ACT of war. he did not suggest there was a DECLARATION or authorization. Ron would be the first to say meddling in Iran is none of our business.

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:04 PM

He said the sanctions were an ACT of war. he did not suggest there was a DECLARATION or authorization. Ron would be the first to say meddling in Iran is none of our business.
Engaging in an act of war is declaring war.
We should leave and stop the war but Congress put us at war with Iran.

19:57
"A declaration of war again does not necessarily mean a piece of paper that says 'we have declared war against you', under the founders' understanding war is declared when there are actions that create a war"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GsCdbBZy-U&feature=youtu.be

Warlord

01-15-2020, 06:06 PM

Engaging in an act of war is declaring war.
We should leave and stop the war but Congress put us at war with Iran.

A state of war only exists when it is declared in Congress. Ron does not say there is one like you title suggests. It's quite clear to me.

Warlord

01-15-2020, 06:08 PM

"Sanctions are literally an act of war" he has said this about 70,000 times in 30 years

That doesn't mean Congress has declared it. Where's the debate and declaration? There is none.. not since the 1940's which is exactly the problem.

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:10 PM

A state of war only exists when it is declared in Congress. Ron does not say there is one like you title suggests. It's quite clear to me.

That doesn't mean Congress has declared it. Where's the debate and declaration? There is none.. not since the 1940's which is exactly the problem.
Ron said that Congress engaged in an act of war against Iran, that's the same thing as declaring war against Iran.
They debated whether to impose sanctions and they declared sanctions imposed, if sanctions are an act of war as Ron declares them to be then Congress debated war and declared it.

angelatc

01-15-2020, 06:11 PM

Engaging in an act of war is declaring war.
We should leave and stop the war but Congress put us at war with Iran.

o]

Stop watching videos and read the damned document. You should (but you won't) discover that the constitution draws distinctions between "declaring," "levying" and "engaging in" war.

Or maybe you can stop occupying this land you don't belong in, warring with Ron Paul's real supporters. Just leave. Try your own personal non-interventionism, Trumpette.

Warlord

01-15-2020, 06:15 PM

Ron said that Congress engaged in an act of war against Iran, that's the same thing as declaring war against Iran.
They debated whether to impose sanctions and they declared sanctions imposed, if sanctions are an act of war as Ron declares them to be then Congress debated war and declared it.

No its not. If it was truly an act of war then Congress has to debate, vote and declare it. There is no debate , vote or declaration so no war. The last time it happened was in the 1940's, perhaps you should read history.

On December 11, 1941, the United States Congress declared war upon Germany (Pub.L. 77–331, Sess. 1, ch. 564, 55 Stat. 796), hours after Germany declared war on the United States after the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Empire of Japan.[1] The vote was 88–0 in the Senate and 393–0 in the House.

Seventy-Seventh Congress of the United States of America;

At the First Session Begun and held at the City of Washington, on Friday, the third day of January, 1941.

JOINT RESOLUTION Declaring That a State of War Exists Between The Government of Germany and the Government and the People of the United States and Making Provisions To Prosecute The Same

Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the Government and the people of the United States of America: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and, to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States.

(Signed) Sam Rayburn, Speaker of the House of Representatives

(Signed) H. A. Wallace, Vice President of the United States and President of the Senate

Approved December 11, 1941 3:05 PM E.S.T.

(Signed) Franklin D. Roosevelt[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_declaration_of_war_upon_Germany_(194 1)

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:16 PM

Stop watching videos and read the damned document. You should (but you won't) discover that the constitution draws distinctions between "declaring," "levying" and "engaging in" war.

Or maybe you can stop occupying this land you don't belong in, warring with Ron Paul's real supporters. Just leave. Try your own personal non-interventionism, Trumpette.
Engaging in or levying war automatically declares war.
And if you want to nitpick then the fault is all on Congress for starting a war and not issuing the proper paperwork, Trump has a right and a duty to defend Americans in the war Congress started whether they didn't file the proper paperwork or not.

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:17 PM

No its not. If it was truly an act of war then Congress has to debate, vote and declare it. There is no debate , vote or declaration so no war. The last time it happened was in the 1940's, perhaps you should read history.

On December 11, 1941, the United States Congress declared war upon Germany (Pub.L. 77–331, Sess. 1, ch. 564, 55 Stat. 796), hours after Germany declared war on the United States after the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Empire of Japan.[1] The vote was 88–0 in the Senate and 393–0 in the House.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_declaration_of_war_upon_Germany_(194 1)

Congress did debate the act of war and vote for it.

Warlord

01-15-2020, 06:18 PM

Congress did debate the act of war and vote for it.

Not against Iran. In fact next week Congress is going to vote against a war with Iran

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:20 PM

Not against Iran. In fact next week Congress is going to vote against a war with Iran
Congress voted to impose sanctions on Iran, according to Ron that is a vote for an act of war against Iran.

You can't have it both ways.

Warlord

01-15-2020, 06:22 PM

Congress voted to impose sanctions on Iran, according to Ron that is a vote for an act of war against Iran.

You can't have it both ways.

No, that's not true. I just pasted the declaration of war from 1941 and Congress has not done anything like that with regards to Iran... Are you deliberately being stupid?

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:24 PM

No, that's not true. I just pasted the declaration of war from 1941 and Congress has not done anything like that with regards to Iran... Are you deliberately being stupid?
Are you claiming that Congress didn't debate and vote for sanctions?
Or are you claiming that Ron is wrong and sanctions are not an act of war?

You can't have it both ways.

angelatc

01-15-2020, 06:25 PM

No, that's not true. I just pasted the declaration of war from 1941 and Congress has not done anything like that with regards to Iran... Are you deliberately being stupid?

He's an interventionist, spreading Trump's one-true version of democracy to us third world Paulitarians.

angelatc

01-15-2020, 06:27 PM

Engaging in or levying war automatically declares war.
And if you want to nitpick then the fault is all on Congress for starting a war and not issuing the proper paperwork, Trump has a right and a duty to defend Americans in the war Congress started whether they didn't file the proper paperwork or not.

Not according to the constitution, which clearly you haven't actually read. I will say it again: the constitution clearly draws distinctions between declaring, levying and engaging-in. Sanctions are engaging in, but not declaring. That was Pauls objection to them.

Now go away.

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:27 PM

He's an interventionist, spreading Trump's one-true version of democracy to us third world Paulitarians.
I want us to end the wars and come home and I promote that here and other places.
But I want Trump to protect our people from the wars Congress started until that happens.

Warlord

01-15-2020, 06:28 PM

Are you claiming that Congress didn't debate and vote for sanctions?
Or are you claiming that Ron is wrong and sanctions are not an act of war?

You can't have it both ways.l

No, read this carefully:

A sanctions Bill does not equate to a declaration of war. A declaration of war is a separate resolution like the one ive shown you from 1941. Ron is CORRECT that sanctions are an act of war and leads to future conflict. You are simply confused.

nikcers

01-15-2020, 06:29 PM

Governor of the Central Bank of Iran (CBI) Mahmoud Bahmani has said that CBI considers the sanctions as a declaration of war

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:29 PM

Not according to the constitution, which clearly you haven't actually read. I will say it again: the constitution clearly draws distinctions between declaring, levying and engaging-in. Sanctions are engaging in, but not declaring. That was Pauls objection to them.

Now go away.
Quote the part that you think negates what I said.
Congress started a war whether they filed the proper paperwork or not.
Jefferson never got a declaration of war against the Barbary pirates because a state of war existed whether our Congress issued a declaration or not.

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:31 PM

l

No, read this carefully:

A sanctions Bill does not equate to a declaration of war. A declaration of war is a separate resolution like the one ive shown you from 1941. Ron is CORRECT that sanctions are an act of war and leads to future conflict. You are simply confused.
An act of war starts a war and Congress voted for one, the lack of an official declaration is a problem for Congress not Trump.
Jefferson never got a declaration of war against the Barbary pirates because a state of war existed whether our Congress issued a declaration or not.

Congress started a war with Iran and Trump must protect out people from the Iranians that Congress started a war with.

Warlord

01-15-2020, 06:38 PM

An act of war starts a war and Congress voted for one, the lack of an official declaration is a problem for Congress not Trump.
Jefferson never got a declaration of war against the Barbary pirates because a state of war existed whether our Congress issued a declaration or not.

Congress started a war with Iran and Trump must protect out people from the Iranians that Congress started a war with.

Trump has no authorization to strike without Congress approving of it. He is not a dictator or a King. The founders put it in the constitution for a reason.

You won't listen. I'm done and will leave you with what Amash wrote :

1217128185281830913
https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1217128185281830913

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:42 PM

Trump has no authorization to strike without Congress approving of it. He is not a dictator or a King. The founders put it in the constitution for a reason.

You won't listen. I'm done and will leave you with what Amash wrote :

1217128185281830913
https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1217128185281830913
Congress started a war with Iran and both Trump's position as Commander in Chief and standing authorization from Congress in the War Powers act gives him the power to conduct that war in defense of our people.

Origanalist

01-15-2020, 06:44 PM

What the fuck is going on here anymore? This place has been over run by a demented version of John McCains ghost.

angelatc

01-15-2020, 06:46 PM

Quote the part that you think negates what I said.
Congress started a war whether they filed the proper paperwork or not.
Jefferson never got a declaration of war against the Barbary pirates because a state of war existed whether our Congress issued a declaration or not.

I don't think that you can honestly believe that Ron Paul was protesting the fact that we declared war via sanctions while he was simultaneously protesting the fact that we hadn't declared war. That makes no sense.

Of course engaging and levying is not declaring, which is the exact point Ron Paul was making. His point is that Congress should not be imposing sanctions because it's an act of war, but they had not declared war. Of course, you aren't here to support Ron Paul, you're here to support Trump so obviously you are not going to agree with Ron Paul on very much.

Article III, Section 3, Clause 1 : Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

Article 1, Section 10, Clause 3 No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Ender

01-15-2020, 06:51 PM

Must suck living in a state where straws are banned when you're grasping at them.

His point is that sanctions are an act of war, so if we are going to incite war we need to declare it.

It's like you've never heard a single word he said.

Sanctions are an "act of war" & should not exist unless war has been constitutionally declared.

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 06:52 PM

I don't think that you honestly believe that Ron Paul was protesting the fact that we declared war via sanctions while he was simultaneously protesting the fact that we hadn't declared war. That makes no sense.

Of course engaging and levying is not declaring, which is the exact point Ron Paul was making. His point is that Congress should not be imposing sanctions because it's an act of war, but they had not declared war. Of course, you aren't here to support Ron Paul, you're here to support Trump so obviously you are not going to agree with Ron Paul on very much.

Article III, Section 3, Clause 1 : Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

Article 1, Section 10, Clause 3 No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
So you think a state can declare a war against a foreign country as long as they don't actually engage in a war?

The parts you quoted don't say that declaring war is different from engaging in war or that engaging in war doesn't declare a war.
Ron is correct that Congress should have either issued a declaration of war or not imposed sanctions but that just means Congress started a war without a specific declaration and that is a problem for Congress not Trump.

Congress never declared war on the Barbary Pirates either but Jefferson fought a war with them because they had declared war on us (like Iran has) and Congress authorized acts of war in response. (which Congress has done in relation to Iran by voting for sanctions and with the War Powers act)

angelatc

01-15-2020, 06:52 PM

Sanctions are an "act of war" & should not exist unless war has been constitutionally declared.

Why is that so hard for Sword ?

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 10:06 PM

Why is that so hard for Sword ?
Why is it so hard for you to understand that an act of war creates a war?

Slave Mentality

01-15-2020, 10:29 PM

What the fuck is going on here anymore? This place has been over run by a demented version of John McCains ghost.

Hell yeah. The war and killing propaganda is being spread thicker than the posters’ cognitive dissonance. Defending The Chosen One like abused housewives. Everywhere.

juleswin

01-15-2020, 10:39 PM

Why is it so hard for you to understand that an act of war creates a war?

So does that mean that Trump has started a war with Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, North Korea, Bolivia etc etc?

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 10:50 PM

So does that mean that Trump has started a war with Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, North Korea, Bolivia etc etc?
Are sanctions an act of war?
Did Congress vote for the sanctions?

Iran was at war with us one way or another and Solly was a valid self defense target one way or another.
We are still at war with N. Korea, that war never ended.

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 10:54 PM

So does that mean that Trump has started a war with Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, North Korea, Bolivia etc etc?
Did any of those countries already have sanctions on them?

nikcers

01-15-2020, 11:09 PM

The government says we are not at war with Iran but all of its actions say otherwise prove me wrong

bv3

01-15-2020, 11:23 PM

nikcers

01-15-2020, 11:25 PM

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 11:27 PM

Its not, and there is longstanding legal principles/precedence that makes this clear. Jus ad bellum and Jus in bello. Referring to the declaration of war and acts of war respectively. This is a secondary point, I see you've already been taken to task on the primary issue regarding the US constitution. But, since you are excited, I suppose you will enlist (if you are not already serving in some capacity for some place, eh? ;))
I want all the wars ended and the troops brought home.
But Congress and Iran have put Trump in the same position as Jefferson vs. the Barbary Pirates, there is a war in fact and Congress has authorized the President to conduct it and has directed specific acts of war.

All of the problems belong to Congress.

bv3

01-15-2020, 11:29 PM

Why is it so hard for you to understand that an act of war creates a war?

A state of war may exist illegally. That is to say: A war that is conducted outside legal requirements (Jus ad Bellum--clear in the US constitution--congressional declaration) is an illegal war.

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 11:31 PM

A state of war may exist illegally. That is to say: A war that is conducted outside legal requirements (Jus ad Bellum--clear in the US constitution--congressional declaration) is an illegal war.
That's the fault of Congress and/or Iran, Trump has a duty to defend our people in the war.

bv3

01-15-2020, 11:32 PM

I want all the wars ended and the troops brought home.
But Congress and Iran have put Trump in the same position as Jefferson vs. the Barbary Pirates, there is a war in fact and Congress has authorized the President to conduct it and has directed specific acts of war.

All of the problems belong to Congress.

Cop out (pun). The presidents duty is to faithfully execute the laws of the Constitution. The constitution stipulates that it is for congress to declare war. A president that prosecutes a war, even one that preexisted his/her ascension to office, that is illegal has failed in his/her primary duty (faithfully execution of the law).

bv3

01-15-2020, 11:33 PM

That's the fault of Congress and/or Iran, Trump has a duty to defend our people in the war.

His duty, which he willingly assumed at the time of his oath, is to faithfully execute the law. Prosecuting a war (committing an act of war outside a legal state of war) is, more than dereliction, a direct contravention of that duty.

Rah rah for him, if you must (the other guy is more difficult/infuriating btw) but don't piss on yourself and tell me its raining.

nikcers

01-15-2020, 11:39 PM

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 11:40 PM

Cop out (pun). The presidents duty is to faithfully execute the laws of the Constitution. The constitution stipulates that it is for congress to declare war. A president that prosecutes a war, even one that preexisted his/her ascension to office, that is illegal has failed in his/her primary duty (faithfully execution of the law).

His duty, which he willingly assumed at the time of his oath, is to faithfully execute the law. Prosecuting a war (committing an act of war outside a legal state of war) is, more than dereliction, a direct contravention of that duty.

Rah rah for him, if you must (the other guy is more difficult/infuriating btw) but don't piss on yourself and tell me its raining.

It is also the duty of the President as Commander in Chief to defend our people in any war.
It's not his fault if Congress or a foreign power start one without an official declaration.
There was never a declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates.
This is all a Congressional problem.

bv3

01-15-2020, 11:48 PM

It is also the duty of the President as Commander in Chief to defend our people in any war.
It's not his fault if Congress or a foreign power start one without an official declaration.
There was never a declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates.
This is all a Congressional problem.

Congress has not started a war with Iran, since Congress has not declared war on Iran. Again, an act of war (one might say a component of a war) when carried out absent a declaration is unconstitutional (which is Dr. Paul's point, obvious point). It is the presidents duty to faithfully execute the law, which (like it or more likely not) is still the US Constitution. This duty precedes all others. As soon as he ascended to office (i.e. completed his oath) it was his duty as commander in chief to cease, immediately, the prosecution of all illegal wars (i.e. acts of war committed absent a congressional declaration of war). His duty to the people deployed is far beyond defense--it is to bring them home. Occupation is, like assassination and sanctions, an internationally recognized act of war.

Swordsmyth

01-15-2020, 11:54 PM

Congress has not started a war with Iran, since Congress has not declared war on Iran. Again, an act of war (one might say a component of a war) when carried out absent a declaration is unconstitutional (which is Dr. Paul's point, obvious point). It is the presidents duty to faithfully execute the law, which (like it or more likely not) is still the US Constitution. This duty precedes all others. As soon as he ascended to office (i.e. completed his oath) it was his duty as commander in chief to cease, immediately, the prosecution of all illegal wars (i.e. acts of war committed absent a congressional declaration of war). His duty to the people deployed is far beyond defense--it is to bring them home. Occupation is, like assassination and sanctions, an internationally recognized act of war.
Congress enacting sanctions is starting a war if sanctions are an act of war.
And Iran has certainly made itself at war with us.
The duty of the President is to protect Americans in any war, he doesn't have to wait for Congress to find out about the war and declare war back at an enemy in order to defend Americans.
There was never an American declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates and we had not declared war against Japan when the Navy sank the Japanese minisub that tried to enter Pearl Harbor before the attack.

We should bring all the troops home and end the wars but Trump must defend our people until that happens.
Every time he talks about ending wars and bringing troops home Congress tries to stop him, the problems belong to Congress.

bv3

01-16-2020, 12:07 AM

Congress enacting sanctions is starting a war if sanctions are an act of war.
And Iran has certainly made itself at war with us.
The duty of the President is to protect Americans in any war, he doesn't have to wait for Congress to find out about the war and declare war back at an enemy in order to defend Americans.
There was never an American declaration of war against the Barbary Pirates and we had not declared war against Japan when the Navy sank the Japanese minisub that tried to enter Pearl Harbor before the attack.

We should bring all the troops home and end the wars but Trump must defend our people until that happens.
Every time he talks about ending wars and bringing troops home Congress tries to stop him, the problems belong to Congress.

No, no, no--You are getting it backwards still. Congress has the power to declare war. Congress does not have the power to commit and act of war. They are separate legal occurrences. Congress declares the war (by a vote, not an act) and the President pursues the war.

Iran is at war with us? Have they boarded any American merchant vessels lately? Have they extracted tribute? Enslaved any American seamen? Iranians are on the continent? In Hawaii? Alaska? I wonder, did sanctions have anything to do with that Jap minisub? (Oh, thats right, they did.).

Congress is not commander in chief. The problem is that Trump is either a bad president or lacks the balls (both, likely)

Swordsmyth

01-16-2020, 12:19 AM

No, no, no--You are getting it backwards still. Congress has the power to declare war. Congress does not have the power to commit and act of war. They are separate legal occurrences.
Congress does have the power to commit acts of war unless you are denying that sanctions are an act of war.
And according to the founders acts of war create a war.

19:57
"A declaration of war again does not necessarily mean a piece of paper that says 'we have declared war against you', under the founders' understanding war is declared when there are actions that create a war"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GsCdbBZy-U&feature=youtu.be

Congress declares the war (by a vote, not an act) and the President pursues the war.
That's overly simplistic but Congress did vote for what Ron says are acts of war and has authorized the President to pursue the war it and Iran started in the War Powers act.

Iran is at war with us? Have they boarded any American merchant vessels lately? Have they extracted tribute? Enslaved any American seamen? Iranians are on the continent? In Hawaii? Alaska?

Iran kills Americans and says it is at war with us.

The IRGC declares itself to be at war with us.

The new leader of Iran’s (https://www.foxnews.com/category/world/conflicts/iran) Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps' elite Quds Force (https://www.foxnews.com/world/what-is-the-quds-force-the-elite-iranian-military-unit) once boasted that U.S. troops have “suffered more losses from us than we have suffered losses from them” and has repeatedly ripped President Trump and America’s allies.
Brigadier Gen. Esmail Qaani, 62, now spearheads the special military unit following the death of Gen. Qassem Soleimani, who was killed Thursday in a U.S. airstrike (https://www.foxnews.com/world/rockets-baghdad-airport-injuries-reported) at Baghdad International Airport in Iraq. He had served as Soleimani’s deputy commander since 1997 – and the Treasury Department says he has used his power to direct funding toward terrorist groups like Hezbollah.
Qaani, like many other Iranian government and military officials, also has a history of making hostile and inflammatory statements against the U.S.
“America has suffered more losses from us than we have suffered losses from them,” the Middle East Institute (https://www.mei.edu/publications/quds-force-commander-weve-inflicted-more-losses-america-its-done-us) quoted him as saying during a 2017 ceremony in commemoration of Iranian forces and Iranian-backed militias battling in Syria and Iraq.

More at: https://www.foxnews.com/world/esmail...ce-iran-us-foe (https://www.foxnews.com/world/esmail-qaani-quds-force-iran-us-foe)

The original IRANIAN source:
https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1...AF%D9%87%D8%AF (https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1396/04/22/1463767/%D8%A2%D9%85%D8%B1%DB%8C%DA%A9%D8%A7-%D8%A8%D8%A7-6%D9%87%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%DB%8C%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%AF-%D8%AF%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%87%D8%B2%DB%8C%D9%86%D9%87-%D9%87%DB%8C%DA%86-%D8%A7%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%B9%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%87-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%86%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%B3%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%85-%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%AF)

Translated:
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"The war we have with the United States has been successful in standing up and resisting in the country because we are in the province," Qaani said

He was a uniformed member and leader of an organization that brags about being at war with us and killing us, he was in Iraq while our people were being killed and our embassy was attacked and was accompanying uniformed members and leaders of the groups carrying out those attacks, groups that his group helped to create, fund and direct.

I wonder, did sanctions have anything to do with that Jap minisub? (Oh, thats right, they did.).
And it doesn't matter that they did, the Navy had a responsibility to defend Pearl Harbor against the minisub and the subsequent air-raid even though Congress had not issued an official declaration of war and neither had Japan.
Trump is in the same position.

Congress is not commander in chief. The problem is that Trump is either a bad president or lacks the balls (both, likely)
Congress has the power of the purse and many other relevant powers, Trump is doing the best he or anyone else could under the circumstances.

bv3

01-16-2020, 12:49 AM

Sanctions are an act of war and thus, absent a declaration, should never be imposed. Furthermore, they are redundant: A declaration of war would obviously entail a cessation of commercial activity with an enemy nation--sanctions not required because they are redundant when a war has been declared.

Do you recognize that Pirates and a General of foreign country are substantially different things? One wears a uniform, and is situated within the hierarchy of a state. The other wears not uniform and is not situated within the hierarchy of a state. Pirates have been open game since at least the 1700's.

The minisub didn't just show up. In that instance sanctions invited another country to declare war on us. Which is why sanctions, redundant and unnecessary, are foolish: They present a highly aggressive posture towards another country, but without the ability to actually war until that country strikes first. Or, to put it another way, "Sanctions, and invitation extended to another country to land the physical first blow."

Swordsmyth

01-16-2020, 12:52 AM

Sanctions are an act of war and thus, absent a declaration, should never be imposed. Furthermore, they are redundant: A declaration of war would obviously entail a cessation of commercial activity with an enemy nation--sanctions not required because they are redundant when a war has been declared.

Do you recognize that Pirates and a General of foreign country are substantially different things? One wears a uniform, and is situated within the hierarchy of a state. The other wears not uniform and is not situated within the hierarchy of a state. Pirates have been open game since at least the 1700's.
The Barbary Pirates were in fact part of the Barbary states and the Barbary states declared war against us just as Iran says that it is at war with us.
Jefferson went to war with the Barbary states themselves and not just the Pirates.
Watch the video, you need the education.

angelatc

01-16-2020, 08:56 AM

Why is it so hard for you to understand that an act of war creates a war?

Well, of course an act of war can create a war, but it isn't the same as declaring a war.

phill4paul

01-16-2020, 09:06 AM

Not according to the constitution, which clearly you haven't actually read. I will say it again: the constitution clearly draws distinctions between declaring, levying and engaging-in. Sanctions are engaging in, but not declaring. That was Pauls objection to them.

Now go away.

le·vy
/ˈlevē/
verb

1.
impose (a tax, fee, or fine).
"a new tax could be levied on industry to pay for cleaning up contaminated land"

2.
ARCHAIC
enlist (someone) for military service.
"he sought to levy one man from each parish for service"

Swordsmyth

01-16-2020, 04:04 PM

Well, of course an act of war can create a war, but it isn't the same as declaring a war.
Which doesn't matter as far as the President is concerned, he must protect our people in any war whether Congress fails in its paperwork duty or not.

nikcers

01-16-2020, 07:36 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1GUgI1vxk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1GUgI1vxk

Aratus

01-16-2020, 10:30 PM

Swordsmyth

01-16-2020, 10:44 PM

A vote for sanctions on Iran is a vote for war against Iran. -- Ron Paul

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?241528-Ron-Paul-Warns-Congress-on-Iran-A-Vote-For-Sanctions-is-a-Vote-For-War

tfurrh

01-16-2020, 10:46 PM

Troll

Swordsmyth

01-16-2020, 10:51 PM

Troll
Can't debate the point?

Aratus

01-16-2020, 11:00 PM

Swordsmyth... if one sees a consistent theme running thru the way THE SHRUB, POTUS BHO and now DONALD JOHN TRUMP
have dealt with Iran, it is our superior military might, and yes, Obama did briefly ease up on the Iranian gov't, but our policy
tends to assume war is a "when" question and not an "if" question. In terms of Cuba, Congressman William McKinley wanted
us to get involved, he was hawkish. As our president, he was having second thoughts when a letter surfaced and got printed
in several newspapers. The tragedy that sank the good ship Maine helped Mister Hearst to sell his papers, so even if McKinley
wanted to be a "dove" he found himself dancing to the war drum of public opinion. Presidents often can lead. They sometimes
do quarrel with Congress. Trump is clearly trying to lead us, and has quarreled with some members of Congress, but the public
at large is not inside a classic war frenzy right now. The sort of one Mark Twain was thinking of with his WAR PRAYER. We are
still sending supplies to the mutual border that Iran and Iraq have, even though we have overstayed our welcome in Iraq. Any
crossing of that border by our troops would delight the neoCons to no end. Will the public be sold a bill of goods next? I wonder.

Origanalist

01-16-2020, 11:08 PM

Can't debate the point?

Debate? There is no debate with you. You simply ignore reality and post continuously until the other party goes to bed. And then you declare victory.

angelatc

01-16-2020, 11:27 PM

Debate? There is no debate with you. You simply ignore reality and post continuously until the other party goes to bed. And then you declare victory.

Exactly. There is no point.

Ron Paul said sanctions are an act of war, and if we want war then Congress needs to grow a set and declare war.

Sword says "Ron Paul said sanctions are a declaration of war!" then spends 48 hours telling everybody else Ron Paul was arguing that we needed to declare war even though we had already declared war.

Seriously, fuck this guy.

Swordsmyth

01-16-2020, 11:30 PM

Exactly. There is no point.

Ron Paul said sanctions are an act of war, and if we want war then Congress needs to grow a set and declare war.

Sword says "Ron Paul said sanctions are a declaration of war!" then spends 48 hours telling everybody else Ron Paul was arguing that we needed to declare war even though we had already declared war.

Seriously, $#@! this guy.
That's not what I said.

I said Trump had to deal with the war Congress started.
I said we should bring home the troops and end the war but Trump has to protect our people until that happens.

Origanalist

01-16-2020, 11:36 PM

That's not what I said.

I said Trump had to deal with the war Congress started.
I said we should bring home the troops and end the war but Trump has to protect our people until that happens.

No sane person believes that you think we should bring the troops home at this point.

Origanalist

01-16-2020, 11:37 PM

I'm out for the night, you go SS.

Swordsmyth

01-16-2020, 11:37 PM

No sane person believes that you think we should bring the troops home at this point.
As if you would know.

nikcers

01-17-2020, 12:58 AM

“The Congress shall have power to declare War;”the plain meaning of which is that, it is the peculiar and exclusive province of Congress, when the nation is at peace, to change that state into a state of war;

We are already in a state of war.