Rand Paul: Trump 'got bad advice' on killing of Soleimani

[Warlord]

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said Monday that President Trump “got bad advice” on his decision to kill top Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani in a strike last week.

Paul said on CNN’s “The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer” that “it’s now a certainty” there will be more attacks on Americans in revenge for Soleimani's killing, as the general’s replacement is a “hard-liner.” The Kentucky senator also mourned the loss of a chance for diplomacy with Iran.

“This is sad,” he said. “I mean, the death of Soleimani, I think, is the death of diplomacy with Iran. I don't see an off-ramp. I don't see a way out of this.”

The Kentucky senator suggested former national security adviser John Bolton was behind the efforts to kill Soleimani and said Trump received “bad advice.”

He also said he considers killing the general an act of war that requires permission of Congress.

Paul responded to a Washington Post report that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo came up with the idea to kill Soleimani, saying he didn’t want to question his intentions but wished the administration had considered the consequences.

"You would have to be brain dead to believe that we tear up the agreement, we put an embargo on you and we kill your major general, and they're just going to crawl back to the table and say, 'What do you want, America?'" he said.

He added that even though “nothing justifies their military action,” it would be “predictable.”

Iran has responded to the killing by saying it will enact revenge against the U.S. Trump has said he has chosen 52 Iranian sites to strike should Iran retaliate, with the number chosen to represent the 52 hostages in the country in 1979.

Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.) proposed a war powers resolution mandating Trump remove troops from Iran if he does not obtain approval from Congress. Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said the House would vote on a similar resolution.


https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/477055-rand-paul-trump-got-bad-advice-on-killing-of

[shakey1]

Rand shoulda had his ear on this one.

[Warlord]

Rand shoulda had his ear on this one.

If only then we wouldn't be in this mess.

[Origanalist]

Understatement of the year.

[r3volution 3.0]

"got bad advice"

:rolleyes:

Deflecting blame from Trump by shifting it onto some nebulous advisors...

I don't recall Ron saying that Bush was a great anti-war guy who just "got bad advice."

Rand will never be useful again until/unless he grows some balls and starts calling Trump out for what he is.

[Warlord]

"got bad advice"

:rolleyes:

Deflecting blame from Trump by shifting it onto some nebulous advisors...

I don't recall Ron saying that Bush was a great anti-war guy who just "got bad advice."

Rand will never be useful again until/unless he grows some balls and starts calling Trump out for what he is.

Rand has to be careful. War is popular again especially in the Republican party.

[angelatc]

Rand has to be careful. War is popular again especially in the Republican party.

This.

[r3volution 3.0]

Rand has to be careful. War is popular again especially in the Republican party.

But that's exactly why we need someone to speak out against it.

So long as "teh advisors dun didit" is a viable excuse, nothing will change.

Trump can nuke Iran tomorrow and, well, teh advisors dun didit...

Trump himself must be held accountable.

Rand is in a unique position to do that, but he's halfassing it.

[enhanced_deficit]

Would the bad advice givers be held accountable?
Or like those who gave bad advice to Bush and Obama, Senate will continue to roll with the punches of Deep Neocons 'follow the money' leaders?

May 14, 2018
Mega-donor Adelson, with access and influence, scores two pro- Israel victories (https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article211098039.html)
These are heady days for casino billionaire and megadonor Sheldon Adelson.
A passionate and hawkish advocate for Israel with close ties to its prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, Adelson was in Jerusalem today for a celebration of the U.S. embassy’s relocation to that city, a longstanding priority for the mogul. Similarly, Adelson had pushed hard for President Donald Trump to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal, which happened last week.
And the day after that announcement, Adelson quietly slipped into the White House for a private meeting with Trump and three top administration officials: Vice President Mike Pence, Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and an Adelson favorite, National Security Adviser John Bolton, according to two conservative sources familiar with the previously unreported private event.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Z8wiRG3P0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Z8wiRG3P0

#1 GOP Cash Bundler, Sheldon Adelson, Calls For US to Bomb Iran w/Nuclear Weapons (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?431541-1-GOP-Cash-Bundler-Sheldon-Adelson-Calls-For-US-to-Bomb-Iran-w-Nuclear-Weapons&)

Top-neocon reverses course, says Trump's ‘most pro-Israel president ever’ (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?531152-Top-neocon-reverses-course-says-Trump-s-‘most-pro-Israel-president-ever’&)

True neoconservatives: (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?450257-The-Neoconservative-Reference-List&p=5500593&viewfull=1#post5500593)

- Elliot Abrams (Rubio, Cruz adviser)
- Sheldon Adelson (Billionaire donor, Rubio backer)
- Sen. Kelly Ayotte
- Gary Bauer
- Cofer Black (Romney adviser)
- Brad Blakeman
- John Bolton (Cruz adviser)
.....




Thought Rand was a highly informed Senator, what is going on ?

Hope he is not losing interest in Presidential aspirations after 2016 loss due to weak strategy , Trump team had played dirty with 'birther movement' to take an edge.

[Warlord]

But that's exactly why we need someone to speak out against it.

So long as "teh advisors dun didit" is a viable excuse, nothing will change.

Trump can nuke Iran tomorrow and, well, teh advisors dun didit...

Trump himself must be held accountable.

Rand is in a unique position to do that, but he's halfassing it.

Behind the scenes im sure he is doing all he can. We will hear more this week if the resolution comes up in CONgress.

[enhanced_deficit]

Rand has to be careful. War is popular again especially in the Republican party.

So he is pandering to interventionist 'Republicans' to win populairty contest within a minority of Republicans that may have been brainwashed again (fool me 3.0?) by fakenews media and globalist neocons?

That doesn't seem logical imo looking at his track record and drive to win at any cost. During 2016 primary, bitherism was 100X more popular among Republicans than any global military adventure is today but Rand let Trump mop the floor with sharp attacks on Obama.

[Warlord]

So he is pandering to interventionist 'Republicans' to win populairty contest within a minority that may have been brainwashed by fakenews media and globalist neocons?

That doesn't seem logical imo looking at his track record and drive to win at any cost. During 2016 primary, bitherism was 100X more popular among Republicans than any global military adventure is today but Rand let Trump mop the floor with sharp attacks on Obama.

He's not pandering to anyone. He's being careful because he knows war is popular. We are back to 2003. The media and public want a war.

[r3volution 3.0]

Behind the scenes im sure he is doing all he can. We will hear more this week if the resolution comes up in CONgress.

Rand played a major role in preventing Obama from launching an all out attack on Syria.

He did that by leveling direct, brutal criticism in public, over and over.

If we're heading toward war with Iran, it's going to take the same kind of effort to stop that.

I appreciate that it's much harder doing this to a POTUS of one's own party, but that's what's required.

Whispering in Trump ear isn't going to do it; Trump has no incentive to listen to Rand unless Rand's prepared to make a public stink.

[Warlord]

Whispering in Trump ear isn't going to do it; Trump has no incentive to listen to Rand unless Rand's prepared to make a public stink.

I don't expect him to be brutal to The Donald. They speak regularly so i think criticism is going to be gentle, like this. I think he'll go further if things degenerate which they will.

[nobody's_hero]

"got bad advice"

:rolleyes:

Deflecting blame from Trump by shifting it onto some nebulous advisors...

I don't recall Ron saying that Bush was a great anti-war guy who just "got bad advice."

Rand will never be useful again until/unless he grows some balls and starts calling Trump out for what he is.

Ron took some bad advice. Granted, nothing that could have provoked a war. Well, maybe a war of words on RPF.

Those were dark days.

It happens though. Not everyone is a stellar judge of character.

[Swordsmyth]

Ron took some bad advice. Granted, nothing that could have provoked a war. Well, maybe a war of words on RPF.

Those were dark days.

It happens though. Not everyone is a stellar judge of character.

Ron voted for the Afghan war.

Rand is being held to a ridiculous standard by people who don't care about success and may actually be enemies.

[nobody's_hero]

Rand has to be careful. War is popular again especially in the Republican party.

I don't think so. There's still a very large neocon faction in the Republican party, but like with liberals, screaming loudly doesn't equal a majority.

[nobody's_hero]

Ron voted for the Afghan war.

Rand is being held to a ridiculous standard by people who don't care about success and may actually be enemies.

Rand is really the best shot we've got. Sadly I don't think he will run again. Who would want to, if you're going to have stones thrown at you from even people behind you?

[r3volution 3.0]

I don't expect him to be brutal to The Donald. They speak regularly so i think criticism is going to be gentle, like this. I think he'll go further if things degenerate which they will.

I don't buy the buddy movie script. I think Rand hates Trump and knows exactly what he is; just recall what he said during the campaign when he felt free to speak. I think Rand pretends they're pals and confidants because he (mistakenly) thinks he can convert the Trump faction from within. And I think Trump likewise pretends because Rand has become an obedient poodle who flatters Trump (and so Rand is a terrific and wonderful guy, good friend, etc). I guess that's not pretense on Trump's part, actually, more pathology.

Anyway, I hope Rand makes the break sooner than later (and not just about this issue).

We'll see what happens.

[Swordsmyth]

Rand is really the best shot we've got. Sadly I don't think he will run again. Who would want to, if you're going to have stones thrown at you from even people behind you?
I think he does have future plans or he might be more aggressive.
But maybe he just believes that getting Trump to like him is the best way to use his remaining time and actually get some results.

If he can get enough popularity with Trump's base to bring them our direction he won't need to care about the backstabbers.

[Warlord]

I don't buy the buddy movie script. I think Rand hates Trump and knows exactly what he is; just recall what he said during the campaign when he felt free to speak. I think Rand pretends they're pals and confidants because he (mistakenly) thinks he can convert the Trump faction from within. And I think Trump likewise pretends because Rand has become an obedient poodle who flatters Trump (and so Rand is a terrific and wonderful guy, good friend, etc). I guess that's not pretense on Trump's part, actually, more pathology.

Anyway, I hope Rand makes the break sooner than later (and not just about this issue).

We'll see what happens.

I'm confident Rand will vote against the interventions when they come up but I don't expect him to use forceful rhetoric.

[dannno]

Rand may have bad information.

He would need to explain to me why the neocons are throwing a fit because Trump didn't tell them beforehand, and why they are attacking him now, in order to convince me that Trump got "bad advice".

Iran should be, and may actually be grateful that the CIA stooge who was in their ranks was taken out by none other than the US military.

[dannno]

Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.) proposed a war powers resolution mandating Trump remove troops from Iran if he does not obtain approval from Congress. Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said the House would vote on a similar resolution.

What a brilliant ploy by Trump to turn some of these turds anti-war.. I forgot if Tim Kaine isn't all that bad, but Pelosi is and hopefully this is rubbing off on some others.

[Swordsmyth]

Rand may have bad information.

He would need to explain to me why the neocons are throwing a fit because Trump didn't tell them beforehand, and why they are attacking him now, in order to convince me that Trump got "bad advice".

Iran should be, and may actually be grateful that the CIA stooge who was in their ranks was taken out by none other than the US military.
He was the primary warmonger in Iran and he controlled all the real power.
The Ayatollah may have even secretly agreed with Trump to get rid of him.

Iran is NOT unified:

What neither side knew was that there was a spy in the summit. Iran’s MOIS, a rival of the Revolutionary Guards within the Iranian national security apparatus, secretly had an agent in the meeting who reported everything that was discussed. The MOIS agent not only attended but “acted as coordinator of this meeting,” according to the MOIS cable. The MOIS envied the Revolutionary Guards’ power and influence and secretly tried to keep track of the Guards’ activities around the world, the leaked archive shows.

More at: https://theintercept.com/2019/11/18/iran-muslim-brotherhood-quds-force/
Is MOIS working with Trump/Q?

[spudea]

Of course Rand, a guy can kill thousands of Americans, and if he's too popular, we just can't do anything about it.....

Absolute trash. Rand wouldn't of even killed Bin Laden.

[r3volution 3.0]

I'm confident Rand will vote against the interventions when they come up but I don't expect him to use forceful rhetoric.

Unfortunately (as to the second point), I have to agree.

[Swordsmyth]

Of course Rand, a guy can kill thousands of Americans, and if he's too popular, we just can't do anything about it.....

Absolute trash. Rand wouldn't of even killed Bin Laden.
Even Ron said we should have put out Letters of Marque to get Bin Laden.

I suppose the leftarians here will now attack him for it.

[r3volution 3.0]

Of course Rand, a guy can kill thousands of Americans, and if he's too popular, we just can't do anything about it.....

Absolute trash. Rand wouldn't of even killed Bin Laden.

Meaning, American soldiers fighting a war in Iraq following the invasion of Iraq?

Curious how the definition of terrorism suddenly broadened in recent days...

[Warlord]

Meaning, American soldiers fighting a war in Iraq following the invasion of Iraq?

Curious how the definition of terrorism suddenly broadened in recent days...

As Zippy said one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[Swordsmyth]

Meaning, American soldiers fighting a war in Iraq following the invasion of Iraq?

Curious how the definition of terrorism suddenly broadened in recent days...
Curious how the borders of Iran suddenly encompass Iraq in the last few days.

[Swordsmyth]

As Zippy said one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
You should know better than to listen to zip.
Iran had no right to kill our men in Iraq, we did not invade Iran.

[r3volution 3.0]

Curious how the borders of Iran suddenly encompass Iraq in the last few days.

Do the borders of the US encompass Iraq?

US kills Iraqi soldiers in Iraq - no problem; Iran kills US soldiers in Iraq - terrorism?

[Swordsmyth]

Do the borders of the US encompass Iraq?

US kills Iraqi soldiers in Iraq - no problem; Iran kills US soldiers in Iraq - terrorism?
We went to war with Iraq and won.
Iran pretended to be at peace with us and killed our men.

One is war, the other is terrorism.

You would be right to say we shouldn't have gone to war with Iraq but that doesn't justify Iranian terrorism.

Even if you count them as equal we had at least as much right to kill him as he had to kill our men.

[Warlord]

You should know better than to listen to zip.
Iran had no right to kill our men in Iraq, we did not invade Iran.

We have no business in Iraq. The resistance will use any and all measures.

[Warlord]

We went to war with Iraq and won.
Iran pretended to be at peace with us and killed our men.

One is war, the other is terrorism.

You would be right to say we shouldn't have gone to war with Iraq but that doesn't justify Iranian terrorism.

Even if you count them as equal we had at least as much right to kill him as he had to kill our men.

PressTV in Iran calls Trump a terrorist. Fox News calls the Iranians terrorists.

[Swordsmyth]

We have no business in Iraq. The resistance will use any and all measures.
Iran is not the Iraqi resistance.

I have no idea where this idea comes from that Iran should be allowed to kill our men because we should leave Iraq.
It's insane and borders on treason.

[Swordsmyth]

PressTV in Iran calls Trump a terrorist. Fox News calls the Iranians terrorists.
PressTV (Iranian propaganda) are liars.
There is such a thing as objective truth.

[Warlord]

PressTV (Iranian propaganda) are liars.
There is such a thing as objective truth.

Fox are also liars. (except Tucker). They repeat assertions without any proof.

[Swordsmyth]

Fox are also liars. (except Tucker). They repeat assertions without any proof.

In this case they are not lying.

Not all liars always lie, even PressTV doesn't always lie.

Iran killed our men in Iraq while pretending not to be at war with us, that's terrorism.

[Warlord]

Iran killed our men in Iraq while pretending not to be at war with us, that's terrorism.

Link?

[r3volution 3.0]

Boy, it really is 2003 again...


We went to war with Iraq and won.
Iran pretended to be at peace with us and killed our men.

One is war, the other is terrorism.

Soldiers killing soldiers is war, not terrorism. The term has been recently redefined by Trump, Hannity, and the rest of the gang solely for the purpose of war propaganda. "Soleimani led military forces which fought the occupying American military forces in Iraq" isn't quite as compelling to the average Boobus as "Soleimani was a terrorist who killed thousands of Americans, Bin Laden, 911!"


Even if you count them as equal we had at least as much right to kill him as he had to kill our men.

I'm not talking about ethics.

I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy, the self-serving language-abuse, in this war propaganda.

[Swordsmyth]

Link?

We had this conversation already:


They supplied the EFPs and funded and organized terrorist groups in Iraq.

They admit to it.


Link?

And why are the military and Blackwater contractors in Iraq in the first place? Like Rand Paul says they're sitting targets.


https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/01/03/iran-leader-killed-in-strike-linked-to-years-of-attacks-killing-of-more-than-1000-us-troops-during-iraq-war/

https://www.newsweek.com/iran-us-iraq-war-troops-killed-efps-shiite-militias-1385990

They openly back the militias in Iraq that attack and kill Americans and Suleymani was in Iraq to meet and work with them when he was killed.



We should not have them there but that doesn't mean we should do nothing when someone else who doesn't belong there kills them.


1) There's no evidence in those links that Iran has killed an American. They're repeating the State Dept. propaganda that he's' responsible or killing Americans but there is no evidence.

2) The troops in Iraq and the contractors are targets for the resistance so expect them to come under fire or go home in bodybags.


They caught banks laundering Iranian money to the terrorists.
And the Iranians flaunt their sponsorship of the shia militias, their propagandists usually brag about it, this discussion is like the Venezuela discussion where the enemy propaganda machine switched back and forth between telling us all was well in Venezuela and there were no shortages and telling us people were starving to death because of American sanctions not because of socialism.
Iran can't be responsible for arming and training the militias when the spin is that they are the good guys and not responsible for doing so when they kill Americans.



That doesn't mean we shouldn't defend our troops until we can bring them home.


The new leader of Iran’s (https://www.foxnews.com/category/world/conflicts/iran) Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps' elite Quds Force (https://www.foxnews.com/world/what-is-the-quds-force-the-elite-iranian-military-unit) once boasted that U.S. troops have “suffered more losses from us than we have suffered losses from them” and has repeatedly ripped President Trump and America’s allies.
Brigadier Gen. Esmail Qaani, 62, now spearheads the special military unit following the death of Gen. Qassem Soleimani, who was killed Thursday in a U.S. airstrike (https://www.foxnews.com/world/rockets-baghdad-airport-injuries-reported) at Baghdad International Airport in Iraq. He had served as Soleimani’s deputy commander since 1997 – and the Treasury Department says he has used his power to direct funding toward terrorist groups like Hezbollah.
Qaani, like many other Iranian government and military officials, also has a history of making hostile and inflammatory statements against the U.S.
“America has suffered more losses from us than we have suffered losses from them,” the Middle East Institute (https://www.mei.edu/publications/quds-force-commander-weve-inflicted-more-losses-america-its-done-us) quoted him as saying during a 2017 ceremony in commemoration of Iranian forces and Iranian-backed militias battling in Syria and Iraq.

More at: https://www.foxnews.com/world/esmail-qaani-quds-force-iran-us-foe

THEY BRAG ABOUT IT.

[Swordsmyth]

Boy, it really is 2003 again...



Soldiers killing soldiers is war, not terrorism. The term has been recently redefined by Trump, Hannity, and the rest of the gang solely for the purpose of war propaganda. "Soleimani led military forces which fought the occupying American military forces in Iraq" isn't quite as compelling to the average Boobus as "Soleimani was a terrorist who killed thousands of Americans, Bin Laden, 911!"



I'm not talking about ethics.

I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy, the self-serving language-abuse, in this war propaganda.
Killing people you aren't at war with for political purposes is terrorism.

Your propaganda fails.

[dannno]

As Zippy said one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Ya, this guy was a freedom fighter for the deep state... lol...

[r3volution 3.0]

Killing people you aren't at war with for political purposes is terrorism.

The average person, to whom this war propaganda is being marketed, thinks of terrorism as the killing of civilians.

By telling him that Iranian terrorism has killed thousands of Americans, Trump et al misleads him as to what happened.

That someone in this very thread was equating Soleimani with Bin Laden clearly demonstrates the point.

Anyway, as to your nonsensical definition, was the US at war with Iraq when it killed Iraqi officials accompanying Soleimani?

No. So, that was terrorism?

[Warlord]

We had this conversation already:

THEY BRAG ABOUT IT.

There's no credible evidence to suggest Iran is responsible for the death of Americans in Iraq or anywhere else. Posting Fox News propaganda is like me posting PressTV stuff.

[Swordsmyth]

The average person, to whom this war propaganda is being marketed, thinks of terrorism as the killing of civilians.

By telling him that Iranian terrorism has killed thousands of Americans, Trump et al misleads him as to what happened.

That someone in this very thread was equating Soleimani with Bin Laden clearly demonstrates the point.

Anyway, as to your nonsensical definition, was the US at war with Iraq when it killed Iraqi officials accompanying Soleimani?

No. So, that was terrorism?
They had also been killing Americans while not at war with us and committed an act of war by attacking our embassy, they were terrorists.
And they were killed to protect our people not for political purposes.

Nobody but you is misleading anyone, the definition of terrorism is the illegal killing of people (including military) for political purposes.

[Swordsmyth]

There's no credible evidence to suggest Iran is responsible for the death of Americans in Iraq or anywhere else. Posting Fox News propaganda is like me posting PressTV stuff.
:seenoevil:

The banks were caught laundering money from Iran to terrorist groups and Iran brags about killing our men.
The fact that FOX is one of the sources reporting the facts doesn't change them.

[Warlord]

They had also been killing Americans while not at war with us and committed an act of war by attacking our embassy, they were terrorists.
And they were killed to protect our people not for political purposes.

Nobody but you is misleading anyone, the definition of terrorism is the illegal killing of people (including military) for political purposes.

The only people doing the killing is the U.S Army, many thousands of dead civilians in Iraq for example.

[r3volution 3.0]

They had also been killing Americans while not at war with us and committed an act of war by attacking our embassy, they were terrorists.
And they were killed to protect our people not for political purposes.

Nobody but you is misleading anyone, the definition of terrorism is the illegal killing of people (including military) for political purposes.

Was the US at war with Iraq when they killed Soleimani's Iraqi companions? Yes or no

For that matter, was the US at war with Iran when they killed Soleimani himself? Yes or no

As to "political purposes," war is always for "political purposes" (as opposed to, say, artistic purposes?), so that's meaningless.

[Warlord]

:seenoevil:

The banks were caught laundering money from Iran to terrorist groups and Iran brags about killing our men.
The fact that FOX is one of the sources reporting the facts doesn't change them.

You have no evidence of Iran killing AMericans. If they killed American's they would have been wiped out. Just repeating the assertion does not make it true.

[Swordsmyth]

You have no evidence of Iran killing AMericans. If they killed American's they would have been wiped out. Just repeating the assertion does not make it true.

The original IRANIAN source:
https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1396/04/22/1463767/%D8%A2%D9%85%D8%B1%DB%8C%DA%A9%D8%A7-%D8%A8%D8%A7-6%D9%87%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%84%DB%8C%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%AF-%D8%AF%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%87%D8%B2%DB%8C%D9%86%D9%87-%D9%87%DB%8C%DA%86-%D8%A7%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%B9%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%87-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%86%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%B3%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%85-%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%AF

Translated:
https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=%D8%A8%D9%87%20%DA%AF%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B4 %20%D8%AE%D8%A8%D8%B1%DA%AF%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8 C%20%D8%AA%D8%B3%D9%86%DB%8C%D9%85%20%D8%A7%D8%B2% 20%D8%A2%D9%85%D9%84%D8%8C%20%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%AF%D8 %A7%D8%B1%20%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B9%DB%8C%D 9%84%20%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%A2%D9%86%DB%8C%20%D8%A7%D9% 85%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%B2%20%D8%AF%D8%B1%20%DB%8C%D8%A7 %D8%AF%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%87%20%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%A F%D8%A7%DB%8C%20%D9%85%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%B9%20% D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%85%20%D9%88%20%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%AF%D8 %A7%DB%8C%20%D8%B1%D9%88%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%DB%8C%2 0%D9%BE%D9%84%DA%A9%20%D8%B3%D9%81%D9%84%DB%8C%20% D8%A2%D9%85%D9%84%D8%8C%20%D8%A8%D8%B1%DA%AF%D8%B2 %D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C%20%DA%86%D9%86%DB%8C%D9%86%20%D 8%AC%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%AA%DB%8C%20%D8%A8%D8%B1% D8%A7%DB%8C%20%DA%AF%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%AF %D8%A7%D8%B4%D8%AA%20%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%AF%D8%A7%20%D 8%B1%D8%A7%20%D8%AF%D8%B1%20%D8%AF%D9%88%20%D8%A8% 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[Swordsmyth]

Was the US at war with Iraq when they killed Soleimani's Iraqi companions? Yes or no

For that matter, was the US at war with Iran when they killed Soleimani himself? Yes or no

As to "political purposes," war is always for "political purposes" (as opposed to, say, artistic purposes?), so that's meaningless.
This was not war, it was the killing of terrorists in self defense.

[Swordsmyth]

The only people doing the killing is the U.S Army, many thousands of dead civilians in Iraq for example.
Don't be stupid.

The dead Americans didn't kill themselves and Iran admits to killing Americans.

[Warlord]

The original IRANIAN source:
Translated:

Where are the dead Americans? There's no evidence. Your just repeating over and over and it doesn't make it true. You sound like Hannity or Romney.

[Swordsmyth]

Where are the dead Americans? There's no evidence. Your just repeating over and over and it doesn't make it true. You sound like Hannity or Romney.
WHAT?

They have been coming home in body bags and with missing legs for years.

You sound like zippy.

THE IRANIANS BRAG ABOUT IT.

Repeating that there is no evidence while being presented with evidence is just crazy.

[Warlord]

WHAT?

They have been coming home in body bags and with missing legs for years.

You sound like zippy.

THE IRANIANS BRAG ABOUT IT.

Repeating that there is no evidence while being presented with evidence is just crazy.

Provide me with evidence and I might believe you. Shouting and ranting does not make it true.

[r3volution 3.0]

This was not war, it was the killing of terrorists in self defense.

Then, according to you, the US attack was terrorism.


Killing people you aren't at war with for political purposes is terrorism.

[Swordsmyth]

Provide me with evidence and I might believe you. Shouting and ranting does not make it true.
You sound exactly like zippy now.
Demanding a proof to a known fact.

It has been an article of faith around here that one of the reasons to bring our troops home was to stop wasting their lives and limbs and nobody has ever dared to claim that no American troops died or were maimed in Iraq.

If I cited casualty figures you would just deny them so you can just go look for them yourself.

Stop insulting my intelligence.

"No Americans died":rolleyes:

I suppose the Iranians are lying about killing Americans because ???????

[Warlord]

Here's' the list of all deaths in Iraq since 2003, combatants and non-combatants.

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/reference/announcements/5/

[Warlord]

You sound exactly like zippy now.
Demanding a proof to a known fact.

It has been an article of faith around here that one of the reasons to bring our troops home was to stop wasting their lives and limbs and nobody has ever dared to claim that no American troops died or were maimed in Iraq.

If I cited casualty figures you would just deny them so you can just go look for them yourself.

Stop insulting my intelligence.

"No Americans died":rolleyes:

I suppose the Iranians are lying about killing Americans because ???????

I'm not disputing that the resistance are responsible for the deaths of some American's or coalition forces but Iran is not directly involved in the killing of AMericans, there's no evidence or proof.

[Swordsmyth]

Then, according to you, the US attack was terrorism.

No.

I just said it wasn't.

Killing terrorists to defend your people is not terrorism any more than killing someone trying to kill you is murder.

[Swordsmyth]

I'm not disputing that the resistance are responsible for the deaths of some American's or coalition forces but Iran is not directly involved in the killing of AMericans, there's no evidence or proof.
I just gave you the proof, banks were caught moving Iranian money to the groups attacking us and the Iranians brag about killing our men.

Insisting the evidence doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.

Iran is not the "good guys" and you shouldn't work so hard to pretend they are innocent.

[r3volution 3.0]

No.

I just said it wasn't.

Killing terrorists to defend your people is not terrorism any more than killing someone trying to kill you is murder.

You said:


Killing people you aren't at war with for political purposes is terrorism.

And then you said (of the recent US attack on Iraq-Iran):


This was not war, it was the killing of terrorists in self defense.

Therefore, by your own silly definition, the US attack on Iraq-Iran wasn't war, and so was terrorism.

[Warlord]

No.

I just said it wasn't.

Killing terrorists to defend your people is not terrorism any more than killing someone trying to kill you is murder.

'Whatever I say is the truth'. Well me and Rev say killing the general was murder/terrorism. Both can play this game...

[Swordsmyth]

You said:



And then you said (of the recent US attack on Iraq-Iran):



Therefore, by your own silly definition, the US attack on Iraq-Iran wasn't war, and so was terrorism.

You are ignoring the political purposes part even though that is the most important part of the definition.

Killing terrorists to defend your people is not terrorism any more than killing someone trying to kill you is murder.

[r3volution 3.0]

Iran is not the "good guys" and you shouldn't work so hard to pretend they are innocent.

I don't recall reading any comments claiming that Iran is the good guy.

I do recall reading (and writing) some comments suggesting that you're parroting mindless war propaganda (which you are).

[Swordsmyth]

'Whatever I say is the truth'. Well me and Rev say killing the general was murder/terrorism. Both can play this game...
Are you a sockpuppet of zippy?

ter•ror•ism tĕr′ə-rĭz″əm►


n.
The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.


https://duckduckgo.com/assets/icons/favicons/wordnik.2x.pngMore at Wordnik (https://www.wordnik.com/words/terrorism) from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.






Killing terrorists to defend your people is not terrorism any more than killing someone trying to kill you is murder.

[Swordsmyth]

I don't recall reading any comments claiming that Iran is the good guy.

I do recall reading (and writing) some comments suggesting that you're parroting mindless war propaganda (which you are).
You two are the ones parroting mindless propaganda.

[Warlord]

You are ignoring the political purposes part even though that is the most important part of the definition.

Killing terrorists to defend your people is not terrorism any more than killing someone trying to kill you is murder.


And now we're back to this... the terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. PressTV calls Trump and Pence terrorists.

Going round in circles.

[r3volution 3.0]

You are ignoring the political purposes part

No, I already addressed that (twice), by pointing out that all actions like this (i.e. states killing people) are political.

If you disagree, explain how the Iranians killing US soldiers in Iraq was political while the US killing Iraqi-Iranian officials in Iraq wasn't.

[Swordsmyth]

And now we're back to this... the terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. PressTV calls Trump and Pence terrorists.

Going round in circles.
No.

We are not back there.

We did not kill the terrorists who killed our men and attacked our embassy for political purposes, we killed them to protect our troops.

They killed our men while not in a war with us for political purposes (making us leave Iraq), that makes the the terrorists.

[Swordsmyth]

No, I already addressed that (twice), by pointing out that all actions like this (i.e. states killing people) are political.

If you disagree, explain how the Iranians killing US soldiers in Iraq was political while the US killing Iraqi-Iranian officials in Iraq wasn't.
Killing us while not at war with us to try and bully us into leaving Iraq is political.
Killing them to protect our men is not political.

[Warlord]

No.

We are not back there.

We did not kill the terrorists who killed our men and attacked our embassy for political purposes, we killed them to protect our troops.

They killed our men while not in a war with us for political purposes (making us leave Iraq), that makes the the terrorists.

There were no deaths in the embassy protest/incident.

[Swordsmyth]

There were no deaths in the embassy protest/incident.
Attacking an embassy is an act of war whether anyone dies or not.
And I didn't say there were deaths at the embassy attack, I said they also attacked the embassy in addition to the deaths.

[Warlord]

Attacking an embassy is an act of war whether anyone dies or not.
And I didn't say there were deaths at the embassy attack, I said they also attacked the embassy in addition to the deaths.

Attacking the embassy is not an act of war. It was a protest after the U.S killed 35 people in an air strike.

[r3volution 3.0]

Killing us while not at war with us to try and bully us into leaving Iraq is political.

But us killing them while we're not at war with them to try to bully them into leaving Iraq (or Syria, or whatever) isn't?


Killing them to protect our men is not political.

Do you think that the Iranian motive in intervening in Iraq, its neighbor, after the US invaded, might have been defensive?

If Iran regime changed Mexico, and the US supported the Mexican resistance, would the US be involved in terrorism?

[Ender]

Attacking an embassy is an act of war whether anyone dies or not.
And I didn't say there were deaths at the embassy attack, I said they also attacked the embassy in addition to the deaths.

Sanctions are an act of war.

[polomertz]

Regardless of who’s attacking us or whatever we want to call it, “they’re attacking us because we’re over there...”

[Warlord]

Ron says the embassy should be closed immediately:



Bring our troops home, close the US Embassy in Baghdad – a symbol of our aggression - and let the people of the Middle East solve their own problems. Maintain a strong defense to protect the United States, but end this neocon pipe-dream of ruling the world from the barrel of a gun. It does not work. It makes us poorer and more vulnerable to attack. It makes the elites of Washington rich while leaving working and middle class America with the bill. It engenders hatred and a desire for revenge among those who have fallen victim to US interventionist foreign policy. And it results in millions of innocents being killed overseas.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2020/january/06/why-i-don-t-trust-trump-on-iran/

SS, stop listening to Hannity and throwing the 'terrorist' label around and listen to the teachings of Ron Paul

[Swordsmyth]

Ron says the embassy should be closed immediately:


http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2020/january/06/why-i-don-t-trust-trump-on-iran/

SS, stop listening to Hannity and throwing the 'terrorist' label around and listen to the teachings of Ron Paul



That has nothing to do with allowing attacks on it until we do.

[Swordsmyth]

Sanctions are an act of war.

Which has nothing to do with this conversation.

[Swordsmyth]

But us killing them while we're not at war with them to try to bully them into leaving Iraq (or Syria, or whatever) isn't?
That's not what happened here.




Do you think that the Iranian motive in intervening in Iraq, its neighbor, after the US invaded, might have been defensive?

If Iran regime changed Mexico, and the US supported the Mexican resistance, would the US be involved in terrorism?
Yes, the motive doesn't matter.
You can argue about the justification from the position of those engaged in it but it doesn't change what it is.
If China invaded Mexico and we supported the Mexican resistance it would not be terrorism for China to kill our men if they found them.

[Swordsmyth]

Attacking the embassy is not an act of war. It was a protest after the U.S killed 35 people in an air strike.
The motive doesn't matter, attacking the embassy was an act of war, that is specified in international treaties related to diplomats and embassies.

[devil21]

They had also been killing Americans while not at war with us and committed an act of war by attacking our embassy, they were terrorists.

Iranians attacked the embassy? Source? Weird, this started out as some offshoot group no one has ever heard of, which was quickly alleged to be "backed by Iran", based on anonymous sources and spurious pictorial evidence. Now, today, only a few days later, it's "Iran attacked our embassy". Sounds like Propaganda Playbook 101: Mossad "by deception do war' Edition.

How's the weather in Utah today?



And they were killed to protect our people not for political purposes.

Nobody but you is misleading anyone, the definition of terrorism is the illegal killing of people (including military) for political purposes.

Also weird since Clinton also started dropping bombs in Iraq when he was being impeached too. Could infer that dropping bombs in Iraq during impeachments is a political maneuver.

[r3volution 3.0]

That's not what happened here.

So explain to me how the US had a "non-political" motive in killing an Iranian government official.


Yes, the motive doesn't matter.
You can argue about the justification from the position of those engaged in it but it doesn't change what it is.
If China invaded Mexico and we supported the Mexican resistance it would not be terrorism for China to kill our men if they found them.

And US actions in that scenario would be terrorism?

[Swordsmyth]

So explain to me how the US had a "non-political" motive in killing an Iranian government official.

He had killed many of our men and was planning on killing more.
That's defensive not political.



And US actions in that scenario would be terrorism?
That's what the "yes" I began my reply with says.

[r3volution 3.0]

He had killed many of our men and was planning on killing more.
That's defensive not political.

But Iran trying to eject a hostile superpower from the country next to it isn't defensive?

What exactly was Iran's purpose then? What exactly does "political" mean here?

...I'll wait while you update your made-up-on-the-fly-to-defend-Trump theory.

[Swordsmyth]

Iranians attacked the embassy? Source? Weird, this started out as some offshoot group no one has ever heard of, which was quickly alleged to be "backed by Iran", based on anonymous sources and spurious pictorial evidence. Now, today, only a few days later, it's "Iran attacked our embassy".
That part was about the Iraqi militia leaders whose militias attacked the embassy, try to keep track of the conversation


Sounds like Propaganda Playbook 101: Mossad "by deception do war' Edition.
I wouldn't know but it seems you can remember it.


How's the weather in Utah today?
That's not where I live.





Also weird since Clinton also started dropping bombs in Iraq when he was being impeached too. Could infer that dropping bombs in Iraq during impeachments is a political maneuver.
Trump has nothing to fear from impeachment, it is making him more popular because it is so laughable.
This was not political, it was to protect our troops and stop a war.

[Swordsmyth]

But Iran trying to eject a hostile superpower from the country next to it isn't defensive?

What exactly was Iran's purpose then? What exactly does "political" mean here?

...I'll wait while you update your made-up-on-the-fly-to-defend-Trump theory.
It's aggressive, they don't own Iraq.

[polomertz]

I believe the Pentagon in their statement said it was a decisive defensive action. Since when is a retaliatory attack while occupying a foreign country a defensive action? The best defense would be to come home. Am I missing something here?

[r3volution 3.0]

It's aggressive, they don't own Iraq.

But the US does...?

[Swordsmyth]

I believe the Pentagon in their statement said it was a decisive defensive action. Since when is a retaliatory attack while occupying a foreign country a defensive action? The best defense would be to come home. Am I missing something here?


But the US does...?
The US has had the permission of the current government to be there and we went there as part of an open war, Iran came along after we were there and attacked in a place they don't own.
That makes them aggressive and anything we do to protect ourselves from them defensive.

And we should definitely leave but that doesn't mean we should allow our men to be killed and our embassy to be attacked until we do.

[r3volution 3.0]

The US has had the permission of the current government to be there

This would be the puppet government which we installed following the invasion?

...whose officials we killed in the bombing in question (without the permission of said government, needless to say)?

...and which invited Soleimani onto their territory (where we killed him without their permission)?

[devil21]

That part was about the Iraqi militia leaders whose militias attacked the embassy, try to keep track of the conversation

It's hard to when nothing you type has any intellectual continuity. A mish mash of excuses, spin and blame games is indeed hard to keep track of!



I wouldn't know but it seems you can remember it.

Of course you do. It's right there in the binder next to your keyboard.


That's not where I live.

Pretty sure it is. Not much else in your time zone.



Trump has nothing to fear from impeachment, it is making him more popular because it is so laughable.
This was not political, it was to protect our troops and stop a war.

It's different when Trump does it, of course. lol

[Swordsmyth]

This would be the puppet government which we installed following the invasion?
Yes, that doesn't make any difference.
And the puppet part is questionable since they just had a non-binding vote in which a slight majority told us to leave and the PM has said he wants us to leave.


...whose officials we killed in the bombing in question (without the permission of said government, needless to say)?
Quasi officials who attacked our embassy which is an act of war.



Our presence in Iraq has nothing to do with whether Iran coming in after we were there and attacking us is aggressive or whether our defense against the attacks from a country that isn't Iraq are defensive.

[polomertz]

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe we invaded, auctioned the oil, installed a government more favorable to us & now even that government has voted us out.

[Swordsmyth]

It's hard to when nothing you type has any intellectual continuity. A mish mash of excuses, spin and blame games is indeed hard to keep track of!
:sleeping:




Of course you do. It's right there in the binder next to your keyboard.
Projection.




Pretty sure it is. Not much else in your time zone.
You have no idea and aren't even close.




It's different when Trump does it, of course. lol
It's different because the circumstances are different.

[Swordsmyth]

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe we invaded, auctioned the oil, installed a government more favorable to us & now even that government has voted us out.
We did not auction the oil.

The rest are all correct and excellent reasons for us to leave but they are not reasons we shouldn't protect our troops and our embassy until we do.

[r3volution 3.0]

Yes, that doesn't make any difference.
And the puppet part is questionable since they just had a non-binding vote in which a slight majority told us to leave and the PM has said he wants us to leave.

Quasi officials who attacked our embassy which is an act of war.

Our presence in Iraq has nothing to do with whether Iran coming in after we were there and attacking us is aggressive or whether our defense against the attacks from a country that isn't Iraq are defensive.

So, you're a shill who begins with the conclusion that whatever POTUS does is right...

...and then constructs laughable arguments on the fly to support that conclusion?

:confused:

[Swordsmyth]

So, you're a shill who begins with the conclusion that whatever POTUS does is right...

...and then constructs laughable arguments on the fly to support that conclusion?

:confused:
Projection.

You are a TDS victim who starts with the premise that whatever Trump does is wrong and then constructs laughable arguments on the fly to support that conclusion?

[polomertz]

I just don’t see how someone can call the strike protective or defensive. There’s nothing defensive about it. It just stirs up more hornets.

[devil21]

Projection.

Says the neocon Mormon Zionist?



You have no idea and aren't even close.

I know you think you're slick or whatever but you're not.



It's different because the circumstances are different.

The Qtards and fake news clicktards maybe but not to any rational person. Birds of a feather...
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5722daf11d07c02f9c1739cc/1473444768336-WRCIWTLB2OZJN42FVOBD/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kBZ1c5W19ULsW4FGeJcrGB1Zw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH 8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIydhUjsg8FRl4UNA6G2o6pQ 2p298Mz3NRQBM2HD_viGMKMshLAGzx4R3EDFOm1kBS/image-asset.jpeg?format=1000w

[Swordsmyth]

Says the neocon Mormon Zionist?



I know you think you're slick or whatever but you're not.



The Qtards and fake news clicktards maybe but not to any rational person. Birds of a feather...

https://static01.********/images/2015/12/30/us/politics/TRUMPBILL/TRUMPBILL-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale

wth? NYT domain name censored?
:sleeping:

[Swordsmyth]

I just don’t see how someone can call the strike protective or defensive. There’s nothing defensive about it. It just stirs up more hornets.
He had been coordinating attacks on our people for man years and he was doing so and planning more.
He was attempting to provoke us into a war but that won't happen now.

[devil21]

:sleeping:

Here's a better picture I found just for you.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5722daf11d07c02f9c1739cc/1473444768336-WRCIWTLB2OZJN42FVOBD/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kBZ1c5W19ULsW4FGeJcrGB1Zw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH 8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIydhUjsg8FRl4UNA6G2o6pQ 2p298Mz3NRQBM2HD_viGMKMshLAGzx4R3EDFOm1kBS/image-asset.jpeg?format=1000w

Donald carrying Bill's package...

Any way, now back to Rand carrying Trump's water thread.

[r3volution 3.0]

Damn Iranians, always attacking our people in countries neighboring Iran that we invade.

Always putting their damn country in the middle of our military bases.