Rick Perry says Trump (and Obama) were 'ordained by God' to be president

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/25/politics/rick-perry-donald-trump-god/index.html


Like a lot of evangelical Christians, Energy Secretary Rick Perry believes in a God who gets involved in every aspect of our lives -- including the election of Donald Trump as President.

"I'm a big believer that the God of our universe is still very active in the details of the day-to-day lives of government," Perry told Fox News in remarks aired on Sunday.

"You know, Barack Obama doesn't get to be the President of the United States without being ordained by God. Neither did Donald Trump."

Perry went on to say that being God's instrument on Earth doesn't mean that Trump is a perfect person. Echoing the argument of other white evangelical Christians, the Texas Republican went on to cite several biblical figures, including King David, whose private lives didn't always align with biblical standards.

Perry is just the latest evangelical Christian in the Trump administration to say they believe the President is divinely ordained.

In February, former White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said that God "wanted Donald Trump to become president and that's why he's there." A month later, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo joined the chorus, saying it's possible God raised Donald Trump to be President in order to protect Israel from Iran.

Perry, who has announced plans to leave his post in December, said he and other evangelicals in the Trump administration have tried to minister to Trump -- even handing him a Sunday School lesson of sorts.

"I actually gave the President a little one-pager on those Old Testament kings about a month ago," Perry told Fox News.

"I said, 'Mr. President, I know there are people that say -- you know, you said you were the chosen one.' And I said, 'you were.' I said, 'if you're a believing Christian, you understand God's plan for the people who rule and judge over us on this planet in our government.'"

Perry said he told Trump that he wanted the President to read the list of Old Testament kings and "absorb that you are here at this chosen time because God ordained it."

Many other white evangelicals likely agree with Perry, Sanders and Pompeo. According to a 2017 survey by the Public Religion Research Institute, more than half (57%) say God played a "major role" in the 2016 presidential election.

But other Christians, particularly those from more liberal traditions, disagree with that idea.

Ekemini Uwan, a public theologian and a co-host of the podcast "Truth's Table," told CNN in February that Trump's election was not exactly an answer to her prayers.

Uwan said she believes that God is supremely in control of the entire universe, from the smallest atoms to American politics.

"We can't say that it's not God's will for Donald Trump to be president, because he is the president," she said.

But the theologian draws a distinction between God's sovereignty and God's approval. That is, what God allows to happen is not the same thing as what God wants to happen.

[acptulsa]

And?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mv9LBUG4KsE

If I was a barista and you tried to buy a cup of coffee with Perry's opinion, I'd charge you extra for making me listen to it.

[Anti Globalist]

Thankfully God didn't let Rick Perry anywhere near the office.

[enhanced_deficit]

What bout Iraqi freedom architect GW Bush?

Why he's bing left out by Perry who is also a Texan.


Related

Pompeo says God may have sent Trump to save Israel from Iran (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?532720-Pompeo-says-God-may-have-sent-Trump-to-save-Israel-from-Iran&)
Video: Texas based CUFI's Pastor John Hagee Praying for more War in the name of Jesus (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?426011-Video-CUFI-s-Pastor-John-Hagee-Praying-for-more-War-in-the-name-of-Jesus&)

[Zippyjuan]

There is actually Biblical veracity to this. From the Book of Romans Chapter 13:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-7&version=ESV


Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

[Swordsmyth]

There is actually Biblical veracity to this. From the Book of Romans Chapter 13:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-7&version=ESV
That doesn't mean what you think it means.

GOD lets the devil pick many rulers in this world (like O'Bummer):

Matthew
Chapter 48 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-4-8/)
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-4-9/)




Others GOD chooses (hopefully that includes Trump):

Daniel
Chapter 4

17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-4-17/)...

[Stratovarious]

''Rick Perry says Trump (and Obama) were 'ordained by God' to be president''

If this is true, then did God also photoshop the fake birth certificate?

[enhanced_deficit]

Actually birther issue has already been resolved under MAGA 2.0; 'His hand works mysteriously'.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/trump-birther-tweet.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjHPDzUOe2U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjHPDzUOe2U

Granted critics are right in that MAGA used racial card to win election and energize Far Right (many of whom feel betrayed now) ahead of 2016, but media calling him a 'racist' was fakenews.

[The Rebel Poet]

There is actually Biblical veracity to this. From the Book of Romans Chapter 13:

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-7&version=ESV
That is largely due to mistranslation. Translators (biblical or otherwise) usually have the philosophy that their job is to help the reader understand difficult information within a text by making subtext (which is subjective) explicit. Since, translators are subject to cultural bias like everyone, and our culture is saturated in statism, you get a bible that says anything a government does is good.

The word translated here as "governing" (ὑπερεχούσαις) actually means "above," or "higher." This is actually one of the few things that the King James translated well, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers."
The next sentence "For there is no authority except from God" is strangely translated to say that all authority figures are from God, but in the Greek texts it is an if (εἰ) statement. This should therefor be rendered "For there is no authority if not from God."
Boring technical note: the majority of manuscripts have ὑπὸ "under", but TR has ἀπὸ "from."

Putting these three facts together without changing anything else from the translation you used would make verse 1 read "Let every person be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority if not under God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." The question then becomes what authorities God established (rather than begging the question that government is the answer).

The rest of the verses sort of follow one way or the other depending on what the first one means, but the last one is more interesting/problematic:
"Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed." This does say pay whatever you owe, but it doesn't actually say who you owe. The very next verse says explicitly: "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law."

[Superfluous Man]

There's nothing at all remarkable about that claim. It's what the Bible teaches, and as far as I can observe is a pretty standard belief among Christians of almost any stripe.

[acptulsa]

There's nothing at all remarkable about that claim. It's what the Bible teaches, and as far as I can observe is a pretty standard belief among Christians of almost any stripe.

Not really, no. I would even venture to guess less than half of Christians subscribe to the God the Micromanager viewpoint.

[Superfluous Man]

Not really, no. I would even venture to guess less than half of Christians subscribe to the God the Micromanager viewpoint.

I haven't taken a poll. But this doesn't sound right to me just from what I've encountered. And I can't imagine what those who deny that God establishes the power of worldly rulers, including wicked tyrants, do with the Bible, which teaches over and over again that he does just that.

Edit: While I myself do subscribe to the micromanager viewpoint (i.e. every single event that ever has occurred or ever will occur down to the exact arrangement of every subatomic particle at every moment in time has been eternally ordained by God), I don't think that the much more modest claim that ordaining such major global events as the establishment of rulers of the world's most powerful empires would qualify as "micromanaging."

[tfurrh]

There's nothing at all remarkable about that claim. It's what the Bible teaches, and as far as I can observe is a pretty standard belief among Christians of almost any stripe.

+ rep. I don't see the need for all the hoop jumping around what the Bible says.

[acptulsa]

I haven't taken a poll. But this doesn't sound right to me just from what I've encountered.

I didn't say which group I think makes more noise.


And I can't imagine what those who deny that God establishes the power of worldly rulers, including wicked tyrants, do with the Bible, which teaches over and over again that he does just that.

I suppose you think most Christians believe the universe, Earth and mankind came to be in 144 hours, too.

[Superfluous Man]

I suppose you think most Christians believe the universe, Earth and mankind came to be in 144 hours, too.

I'm not sure. I would rate that claim as less universally believed by Christians than the claim that God ordains earthly rulers is, which is generally agreed on across theological spectrums, whether liberal or conservative, Catholic or Protestant.

That said, it would not surprise me to find polls showing that most Christians do still accept young earth creationism. It's certainly true that the majority throughout history have.

[acptulsa]

Well, my advice to you is, careful with those stereotypes. They won't always work for you.

[jkr]

nope


see abortions and gay "marriage"

[tfurrh]

I didn't say which group I think makes more noise.



I suppose you think most Christians believe the universe, Earth and mankind came to be in 144 hours, too.

Something that's very hard to do is change your worldview so that it aligns with scripture. Today it seems that Christians go about it backwards.

[Sonny Tufts]

the claim that God ordains earthly rulers is, which is generally agreed on across theological spectrums, whether liberal or conservative, Catholic or Protestant.

I can't believe that any significant number of Christians believe that God ordained Hitler.

[Superfluous Man]

I can't believe that any significant number of Christians believe that God ordained Hitler.

I am certain that a very significant number of Christians believe that, and probably a solid majority.

Note that I am not referring to God's approval of Hitler's rule, or granting Hitler any kind of moral license for anything he did. I am referring to the establishment of Hitler in that position being within God's providential control of creation, which is what I inferred was what Rick Perry was talking about in the OP.

Even the Beast in the Book of Revelation is granted his power by God.

[Sammy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoNzwJGkM8s

[tfurrh]

//

[Anti Globalist]

Personally if I were God I wouldn't want to be responsible for anybody that becomes president.

[Sonny Tufts]

Note that I am not referring to God's approval of Hitler's rule, or granting Hitler any kind of moral license for anything he did. I am referring to the establishment of Hitler in that position being within God's providential control of creation

I agree that's probably what Perry meant, but I don't get the impression that a majority of Christians think God would be so cruel as to establish Hitler and the Holocaust.

[tfurrh]

Worth a copy/paste

How do we know that God always controls everything? My answer is that we know this because the Bible teaches it. It teaches it by direct statements and by clear and sufficient implication. Let me give you five clusters of texts or kinds of texts.

How God Works
First, God works all things according to his will. Here’s Ephesians 1:11: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Let me say it again. He works all things according to the counsel of his will. I think that means he always controls everything. There’s my answer.

We could just stop now. When it says all things, there’s no reason to assume any exceptions here (I don’t think). Sometimes people say, “Well, no, no, no. He’s talking about predestination of Christians.” Now when somebody says that, you need to pause and think about the words “he’s just talking about.” They are so vague. They can’t support the point the person is trying to make without more careful attention.

When you give more careful attention, what you realize is that Paul is using a general statement about God’s working everything according to the counsel of his will as a support for a specific statement about predestination. We all know that a specific application of a general statement doesn’t nullify or limit the truth of the general statement.

For example, if I say my friend (who knows how to drive every kind of car) drove an electric car without instruction the first time he got into it, you wouldn’t think he knows how to only drive electric cars. The fact that we’re talking about an electric car is simply pointing out that it’s an illustration of his ability to drive every kind of car. That illustration doesn’t nullify the fact that he can drive every kind of car. My point was to say he can drive every kind of car, and here’s an illustration of it.

When Paul says, “God, who works all things according to the counsel of his will, specifically predestined us,” it doesn’t mean “He really doesn’t work all things according to the counsel of his will; he only predestined us.” That’s exactly the opposite of the way Paul is arguing. We need to think carefully when people make vague statements, trying to limit a context when the context is clearly expansive.

He’s Over All
Second, God governs all human plans and acts.

Proverbs 16:9 says, “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” Just a general statement.
Proverbs 20:24 reads, “A man’s steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way?” A general statement about all his steps.
Proverbs 16:33: “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Human beings decide all kinds of ways to make a decision. They try rolling dice, and they draw lots, and they put out pieces of cloth on the ground — whatever. The point here is whatever means they use, it’s going to be God’s will in the end. Every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 19:21: “Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.” Whatever humans anywhere in the world are planning and doing, what stands is God’s will.
Jeremiah 10:23: “I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.”
All of those passages sweepingly say that everything that human beings do is, in the end, the will of God.

The Causer
Third, behind human acts, the biblical writers assume God. This is amazing. Here’s Amos 3:6: “Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?”

Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it? The answer is no. Well, what’s the implication? The implication is the biblical writer assumes every kind of event that comes to a city is ultimately from the Lord. He raises it with a rhetorical question that can’t be explained any other way. That’s his mindset.

This same thing happens in Lamentations 3:37: “Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?” In other words, the only explanation the biblical writer sees behind anything being commanded is that the Lord ultimately brought it to pass.

If the Lord Wills
Fourth, this one is sweeping like the first one. God’s sovereign will governs all daily events. Here is James 4:13–15: “Come now, you who say, ‘Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit’ — yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say” — this is what the biblical inspired writer James says we ought to say — “‘If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.’”

What’s the point of that? That means “this or that” — anything you do — you should go into it saying, “I’m not in control here.” It’s arrogant, he says, to think you’re in control. God is in control.

Permitting or Controlling?
Lastly, God’s permission for Satan or man to act is nevertheless part of God’s ultimate design and final control. I’m trying to respond here to someone who says, “Well, God doesn’t control everything, but he permits lots of things.” I’m saying that’s right. He certainly does permit lots of things. How should we understand an all-knowing God with perfect foreknowledge permitting something in his infinite wisdom?

Here’s what Jesus says in Luke 22:31: “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” Notice he does not say, “If you have turned again,” but “when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

In other words, “Yes, I’m going to give Satan permission to sift you like wheat, and I know it’s going to involve three denials. I know you’re going to turn, and I know that the purpose of bringing you back according to my prayer is that you might strengthen your brothers.”

Even in situations where God is permitting, he is permitting by design. When you permit something and you know what it’s going to do and you know all of its outcomes and you go ahead and permit it, you permit it wisely if you’re God — and then it wisely fits into the overall pattern of what you are planning and doing.

Let me end with a statement and a question. The statement is that human beings are responsible, accountable, praiseworthy, or blameworthy for what they do. God’s sovereignty does not diminish human accountability. That’s the statement.

The question is, which world would you rather live in? One where humans or Satan or chance govern what happens to you? Or one where an infinitely good, infinitely wise, infinitely powerful God works everything together for the good of those who trust him and for his glory?

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-god-control-all-things-all-the-time

[devil21]

Maybe he means the Pope.

[Anti Globalist]

Did God also plan on Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer to become serial killers?

[Swordsmyth]

Did God also plan on Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer to become serial killers?
I'd say he had a plan for if they did or if they didn't.

[tfurrh]

Did God also plan on Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer to become serial killers?

From a Christian perspective what's the biggest no-no anyone could possibly come up with? Perhaps killing God? Well that's exactly what people did, and the Bible tells us God planned it.

The idea of a sovereign God isn't a fringe whacko doctrine. In fact quite the opposite. SuperfluousMan is right that it's been predominant throughout church history.

[Swordsmyth]

From a Christian perspective what's the biggest no-no anyone could possibly come up with? Perhaps killing God? Well that's exactly what people did, and the Bible tells us God planned it.
That was a special case to make the atonement for all mankind and it was handled by placing people who were sure to do what they did in the right places.

GOD must also allow free choice and the random results that generates in order to test who belongs in heaven and who doesn't, he must also allow the devil to control somethings in order to supply the proper temptations for the test.

[tfurrh]

GOD must also allow free choice and the random results that generates in order to test who belongs in heaven and who doesn't...

Says who?

[Swordsmyth]

Says who?
GOD.

[tfurrh]

GOD.

Where?

[Swordsmyth]

Where?
Luke
Chapter 13 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-13-1/)
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-13-2/)
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-13-3/)
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-13-4/)
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-13-5/)
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-13-6/)
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-13-7/)
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-13-8/)
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-13-9/)




Revelation 2:5 “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

King James Version (KJV)


Jeremiah 26:3 “If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.”

King James Version (KJV)


Jeremiah 18:8 “If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.”

King James Version (KJV)

Jeremiah 26:13 “Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.”

King James Version (KJV)


Acts 3:19 “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”

King James Version (KJV)


Jeremiah 42:10 “If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.”

King James Version (KJV)


Jeremiah 18:10 “If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.”

King James Version (KJV)


Revelation 2:21 “And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.”

King James Version (KJV)











There's lots more.

[Superfluous Man]

Did God also plan on Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer to become serial killers?

Yes.

[tfurrh]

There's lots more

Those are verses on repentance. Not God being compelled to allow free will.

How does one repent?

I know where you stand though...and you know where I stand. So not much in the back and forth. I'll say again though that doctrines like providence, predestination, foreordenance, election, and the sovereignty of God are not fringe.

[oyarde]

There is actually Biblical veracity to this. From the Book of Romans Chapter 13:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A1-7&version=ESV

Ya , since I do what is good I have everyones approval .

[Zippyjuan]

That is largely due to mistranslation. Translators (biblical or otherwise) usually have the philosophy that their job is to help the reader understand difficult information within a text by making subtext (which is subjective) explicit. Since, translators are subject to cultural bias like everyone, and our culture is saturated in statism, you get a bible that says anything a government does is good.

The word translated here as "governing" (ὑπερεχούσαις) actually means "above," or "higher." This is actually one of the few things that the King James translated well, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers."
The next sentence "For there is no authority except from God" is strangely translated to say that all authority figures are from God, but in the Greek texts it is an if (εἰ) statement. This should therefor be rendered "For there is no authority if not from God."
Boring technical note: the majority of manuscripts have ὑπὸ "under", but TR has ἀπὸ "from."

Putting these three facts together without changing anything else from the translation you used would make verse 1 read "Let every person be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority if not under God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." The question then becomes what authorities God established (rather than begging the question that government is the answer).

The rest of the verses sort of follow one way or the other depending on what the first one means, but the last one is more interesting/problematic:
"Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed." This does say pay whatever you owe, but it doesn't actually say who you owe. The very next verse says explicitly: "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law."

"Mis-translation" can create problems on whether the Bible is indeed the literal "word of God" when different translation say different things. The books of the Bible underwent many translations passing though many different languages. There are even differences on the height of the Goliath. Some translations put him at nine feet tall while sections found in the Dead Sea Scrolls put him at 6' 9". There have even been disagreements on which books belong in the Bible. Man decided (some claim with the guidance of God).