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Anti Federalist
11-16-2019, 02:27 PM
Pending Ban on Flavored E-Cigarettes in Massachusetts Authorizes Forfeiture of Vapers' Cars

https://reason.com/2019/11/14/pending-ban-on-flavored-e-cigarettes-in-massachusetts-authorizes-forfeiture-of-vapers-cars/

The bill, which the state House passed yesterday, says police may seize vehicles in which they find untaxed vaping products.

JACOB SULLUM | 11.14.2019 1:55 PM

According to the Institute for Justice, Massachusetts has "the worst civil forfeiture laws in the country." It looks like state legislators are about to outdo themselves.

The Massachusetts House of Representatives yesterday approved a bill that would ban flavored e-cigarettes, impose a 75 percent excise tax on "electronic nicotine delivery systems" (including e-liquids as well as devices), and authorize forfeiture of cars driven by vapers caught with "untaxed" products. The House approved H4183 by a vote of 127 to 31, and the state Senate is expected to consider it next week.

An "emergency" ban that Gov. Charlie Baker (R) imposed on all vaping products in September will expire on December 24. This bill permanently bans "flavored tobacco products," including menthol cigarettes as well as vaping liquids that taste or smell like anything other than tobacco. It does not apply to hookah bars or marijuana vapes.

Rep. John Mahoney (D–Worcester), chairman of the Joint Committee on Public Health, claims e-cigarette flavors "were created and designed for one reason only—for young people to become addicted to nicotine and to become lifelong users." Since adults who have switched from smoking to vaping overwhelmingly prefer flavors other than tobacco, that statement is either shockingly ill-informed or brazenly mendacious.

Once their preferred flavors are no longer legally available, some of those vapers may go back to smoking, a far more dangerous habit, while others may buy potentially tainted pods or e-liquids on the black market. Or they might buy flavored e-liquids in states where they are still legal and bring them back to Massachusetts. But vapers who try to find ways around the ban should be aware of the potential penalties.

The bill says "a person who knowingly purchases or possesses an electronic nicotine delivery system not manufactured, purchased or imported by a licensed electronic nicotine delivery system distributor or licensed electronic nicotine delivery system retailer shall…be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $5,000 for the first offense and not more than $25,000 for a second or subsequent offense." But that's not the worst of it.

The bill also says a police officer who "discovers an untaxed electronic nicotine
delivery system in the possession of a person who is not a licensed or commissioner-authorized electronic nicotine delivery system distributor" may seize both the product and the "receptacle" in which it is found, "including, but not limited to, a motor vehicle, boat or airplane in which the electronic nicotine delivery systems are contained or transported." Such property "shall be turned over to the commissioner [of revenue] and shall be forfeited to the commonwealth." The commissioner may then sell the seized property and "deposit the proceeds in the General Fund."

Dan Alban, a senior attorney at the Institute for Justice who has been fighting forfeiture abuse for years, was astonished by this provision. "This is completely insane and endangers the property rights of anyone in Massachusetts," he says. "Even if you don't have an 'untaxed electronic nicotine delivery system,' are you going to search every passenger in your vehicle? It is as though someone wanted to highlight the indefensibility of forfeiture via reductio ad absurdum. Does 'receptacle' include a house as well?" Alban says the provision's only redeeming feature is that the proceeds from forfeitures would go into the state's general fund, rather than the budgets of the police departments that seize the property.

While both fines and asset forfeiture could be deployed against distributors of newly illicit vaping products, they apply to consumers as well. "A resident of the commonwealth shall be liable for the collection of the excise on all electronic nicotine delivery systems that are in the resident's possession at any time and upon which the excise has not been paid by an electronic nicotine delivery system distributor or electronic nicotine delivery system retailer," the bill says. "There shall be a presumption that the excise on the electronic nicotine delivery system has not been paid and that the resident is liable for such excise if a resident, upon demand, fails to produce or exhibit to the commissioner or the commissioner's authorized representative an invoice or sales receipt by an electronic nicotine delivery system distributor or electronic nicotine delivery system retailer for an electronic nicotine delivery system in the resident's possession."

In other words, a vaper is presumed to be in possession of "an untaxed electronic nicotine delivery system," which makes his car subject to forfeiture, unless he has receipts that prove otherwise. And in the case of newly illegal vaping products purchased out of state or on the black market, he will have no such proof.

Under this bill, unapproved vaping products would be treated like illegal drugs, possession of which is enough to justify forfeiture of the vehicles in which they are found. Massachusetts is poised to deprive vapers of the harm-reducing products they used to quit smoking, then steal their cars if they dare to defy that unjust and irrational edict.

"Over the objections of most local lawmakers, Massachusetts voters voted to end marijuana prohibition three years ago," says Gregory Conley, president of the American Vaping Association. "Now it appears that legislators are searching for a new drug war to fight. No adult should have to travel with receipts in their pockets at all times under the threat of having their vehicle seized by police for daring to use a flavored nicotine product. Based on what we know from the disastrous war on marijuana, inevitably it will be poor and marginalized communities that will feel the pain from laws like this. This is what happens when you have legislators who not only don't understand what they are banning but are also insistent upon rushing a bill into law."

Anti Globalist
11-16-2019, 05:07 PM
Good thing I don't live in MA and vape or else this would affect me.

phill4paul
11-16-2019, 06:37 PM
Remember what they used to do to horse thieves?

Stratovarious
11-16-2019, 07:09 PM
Good thing I don't live in MA and vape or else this would affect me.

I think vapping is lame asfk , but there is a thing called natural rights, Natural Rights dictates that our decisions
to make dumb ones or smart ones are our own , not the government's. :


''First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.''

Origanalist
11-16-2019, 07:19 PM
And if that doesn't work they can always strangle you on the sidewalk.

oyarde
11-16-2019, 09:20 PM
Shithole , sounds like saud.

Schifference
11-17-2019, 04:43 AM
A huge portion of the population drive vehicles that are worth less than they owe. The person driving the vehicle doesn't own the vehicle.

fedupinmo
11-17-2019, 07:56 AM
A huge portion of the population drive vehicles that are worth less than they owe. The person driving the vehicle doesn't own the vehicle.
The banks will still insist on getting paid, regardless of the disposition of the collateral.

Stratovarious
11-17-2019, 08:13 AM
Remember what they used to do to horse thieves?
Yes, but in what way are you tying this together?

Stratovarious
11-17-2019, 08:16 AM
I'm looking through our Bill of Rights and they Constitution in general trying to determine the parts that
they don't incinerate with this tyrannical, stifling, asset grab.

Schifference
11-17-2019, 08:37 AM
The banks will still insist on getting paid, regardless of the disposition of the collateral.

The banks have the auto for collateral. They have a right to repossess once payments stop.

devil21
11-17-2019, 09:52 AM
If the car is registered, it is the state's car, not yours. That's why they can pass arbitrary rules like this one to seize a car. It's not your car. It's their car.

Anti Federalist
11-17-2019, 11:02 AM
If the car is registered, it is the state's car, not yours. That's why they can pass arbitrary rules like this one to seize a car. It's not your car. It's their car.

Just like it is the state's income and the state's real estate and the state's children.

Anti Federalist
11-17-2019, 11:03 AM
The banks have the auto for collateral. They have a right to repossess once payments stop.

Are you trying to say that the bank will try to repo from the cops?

LOL, that's funny, you're a funny guy.

Schifference
11-17-2019, 12:14 PM
Are you trying to say that the bank will try to repo from the cops?

LOL, that's funny, you're a funny guy.

Sure. Yes. I think a lawyer will file suit for the automobile and the bank will get it back.

Anti Federalist
11-17-2019, 12:45 PM
Sure. Yes. I think a lawyer will file suit for the automobile and the bank will get it back.

That's not how it works.

If the cops have seized the vehicle (as opposed to impounding it) and there is money owed, you remain on the hook to make payments until such time as the cops decide to auction it off.

At auction, any proceeds are paid to the lien-holder.

If the car sells for less than what is owed (which is almost always the case) you remain liable pay the balance.

Schifference
11-17-2019, 12:58 PM
That's not how it works.

If the cops have seized the vehicle (as opposed to impounding it) and there is money owed, you remain on the hook to make payments until such time as the cops decide to auction it off.

At auction, any proceeds are paid to the lien-holder.

If the car sells for less than what is owed (which is almost always the case) you remain liable pay the balance.

Okay. Lack of payment would put you in default. Default would justify repossession. Not making payment would be a civil issue that could be remedied by paying what is owed or declaring bankruptcy.

I wonder what happens if you transport a passenger that has illegal vape equipment on them.

dannno
11-17-2019, 01:04 PM
Okay. Lack of payment would put you in default. Default would justify repossession. Not making payment would be a civil issue that could be remedied by paying what is owed or declaring bankruptcy.

I wonder what happens if you transport a passenger that has illegal vape equipment on them.

The best way to find out would be to figure out who the lawmakers are pushing this bill, wait for the bill to pass, plant illegal vaping equipment on a passenger in their car and report them to the cops.

devil21
11-18-2019, 08:07 PM
Just like it is the state's income and the state's real estate and the state's children.

And all of it is voluntarily via one's own voluntary signatures and voluntary filings.

People need to learn what the words we use mean. Registration. Registration. REGIS. Registration of something is turning over ownership of the thing to the KING/QUEEN, or whatever the equivalent authority in the area representing that sovereign is.

DamianTV
11-19-2019, 03:02 AM
The banks will still insist on getting paid, regardless of the disposition of the collateral.

Perhaps the real intent is to push people back to riding bikes or horses? Or walking? Nah, couldnt be that simple. I think there are several real goals here. First, bolster their own funds by passing yet another law that converts an honest person into a criminal with the flip of a pen. Next is it destroys a persons ability to be independent and travel at will. One of their agendas is to push for all transportation to be forcibly shoved towards public transit systems, where they can deny Dissenters like us here the ability to get on a bus to go to work.

Next, more Fearmongering and Propaganda. Blah blah blah vaping deaths be afraid protect us so on and so on. So what really happened? Morons tried to vape edible CBD products. Sure, cheeseburgers can sometimes taste great, but would you roll one up and smoke it directly into your lungs? Geez, I wonder why they got sick! They are making the cause sound much much more complicated by saying Vitamin E Acetate, which basically means you were supposed to fucking eat it, not smoke it.

devil21
11-19-2019, 10:37 PM
Perhaps the real intent is to push people back to riding bikes or horses? Or walking? Nah, couldnt be that simple. I think there are several real goals here. First, bolster their own funds by passing yet another law that converts an honest person into a criminal with the flip of a pen. Next is it destroys a persons ability to be independent and travel at will. One of their agendas is to push for all transportation to be forcibly shoved towards public transit systems, where they can deny Dissenters like us here the ability to get on a bus to go to work.

Next, more Fearmongering and Propaganda. Blah blah blah vaping deaths be afraid protect us so on and so on. So what really happened? Morons tried to vape edible CBD products. Sure, cheeseburgers can sometimes taste great, but would you roll one up and smoke it directly into your lungs? Geez, I wonder why they got sick! They are making the cause sound much much more complicated by saying Vitamin E Acetate, which basically means you were supposed to fucking eat it, not smoke it.

You must spread some yada yada....

Swordsmyth
11-20-2019, 12:02 AM
You must spread some yada yada....
Covered.

tommyrp12
11-21-2019, 11:05 AM
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/11/21/massachusetts-senate-flavored-tobacco-ban-menthol-nicotine-vaping-products-tax/

BOSTON (AP) — Massachusetts lawmakers passed a groundbreaking ban Thursday on the sale of flavored tobacco and vaping products, including menthol cigarettes.

The bill would also place a 75% excise tax on vaping products and require health insurers, including the state’s Medicaid program, to cover tobacco cessation counseling.

“This nation-leading step will save lives,” Democratic House Speaker Robert DeLeo said.

The ban was passed by the Senate early Thursday before the legislature broke for a holiday recess. It had earlier been passed by the state House of Representatives and now goes to the desk of Republican Gov. Charlie Baker.

Baker hasn’t indicated whether or when he will sign the ban, but its chances are good. In September, he had declared a public health emergency and ordered a temporary ban on the sale of vaping products. .........

Anti Federalist
11-21-2019, 11:57 AM
What is government up to?

Tobacco in all its forms is now, for all intents and purposes, illegal.

Marijuana is not.