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Ender
11-16-2019, 11:01 AM
Been saying this forever:

Deceived in Liberty: The Curse of American Nationalism (https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/11/thomas-dilorenzo/deceived-in-liberty-the-curse-of-american-nationalism/)
By Thomas DiLorenzo

November 16, 2019

All governmental power is propped up by an avalanche of myths and superstitions about the alleged benevolence, omniscience, honesty, selflessness, and magnanimity of the state, coupled with critiques if not outright demonization of private property, free market voluntarism, private enterprise, limited government, the rule of law, the free society, and all those who educate about and advance such concepts. Your author once co-authored a book entitled , about mountains of such myths and superstitions. A case can be made that at the top of the list of statist myths and superstitions is the myth of American nationalism — about the supposed “superiority” of a virtually unlimited, centralized and consolidated government, coupled with the never-ending hatred and demonization of federalism, states’ rights, nullification and secession, and anything else that challenges the notion of the “supremacy” of the central government.

In this regard American “nationalism” has nothing to do with the older concept of a people with a common language and culture, living within the borders of their own nation state. The unique American version of “nationalism” was invented at the time of the founding by a group of conniving, Machiavellian politicians who sought to overthrow the results of the American Revolution – the casting off of the centralized, oppressive, mercantilist/crony capitalist British empire – and adopt the very same system in America – the British empire without the British. There is nothing wrong with a corrupt, tyrannical, mercantilist empire that uses the coercive powers of the state to enrich the ruling class at the expense of the working class, these men said, confident that they would naturally assume the position of the ruling class.
These men were led by the likes of Alexander Hamilton, John Adams, Sam Adams, John Hancock, Thomas Paine, and other “Federalists,” many of who were “defectors” to the cause of liberty – the cause of the American Revolution – as Murray Rothbard wrote in .

The “triumph” of these “nationalists” with the adoption of the centralizing U.S. Constitution is the theme of the latter two-thirds of Rothbard’s latest great work of scholarship, made possible by the heroic efforts of Patrick Newman in painstakingly (with the emphasis on “pain”) translating Murray’s handwriting of nearly the entire manuscript, which is 319 pages long in print. The nationalists, wrote Rothbard, “wanted a strong central power that would control an aggressive national army and navy, wield a national taxing power to decimate the rights of the states and individuals, and federally assume public debts and army pensions.” In doing so they hoped to “destroy the original individualist and decentralized program of the American Revolution.” Conceived in Liberty tells the story, chapter and verse, of how these men subverted and overthrew the principles of American freedom that inspired the American Revolution with their “devious and sinister machinations.”

These “machinations” were employed to rig the constitutional convention with a lopsided majority of delegates from “the wealthy and eminent” and “also from the urban commercial interest, merchants, and artisans, the majority of commercial farmers, and leading urban-exporters. In short, nationalist strength came from men who supported centralizing tariffs and navigation laws, raising the value of public securities, and an aggressive foreign policy, all at the expense of the taxpaying inland farmer.” In seven of the twelve states represented at the constitutional convention there was no representation at all by the inland farmers.

This point calls to mind another statist superstition – that Alexander Hamilton was some kind of educated genius when it came to economic theory, whereas his political nemesis, Thomas Jefferson, was sort of a dopey agrarian dreamer on the subject who supposedly wanted all of America to be “a nation of farmers.” Exactly the opposite is true: In his biography of Hamilton William Graham Sumner described his writings as a jumble of British mercantilists superstitions copied from propaganda pamphlets written by publicists for protectionists and other mercantilists. When Hamilton’s political sponsor, Robert Morris, told George Washington that he wanted Hamilton to be the first Treasury Secretary, Washington told Hamilton that he didn’t know that he knew anything about finance since they never talked about it, as described in Ron Chernow’s Pulitzer prize-winning biography of Hamilton.

Jefferson, on the other hand, had read Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations and translated the writings of French physiocrat Jacques Turgot, the French finance minister and precursor of the free-market Austrian School of economics. To this day, a bust of Turgot is at the entrance of Jefferson’s home, Monticello.

What Jefferson opposed was not industrialization but the use of governmental power to tax farmers in order to subsidize the corporate merchant class. He opposed, in other words, the nationalist project of using the coercive powers of the state to plunder the farmers of America for the benefit of the merchant class. It is an insidious, nationalist lie that Jefferson opposed business and industrialization per se.

Like all criminal schemers, the nationalists decided “to hold the entire [constitutional] convention in strictest secrecy in order to make sure that the public would not know what was going on.” This of course begs the question: If what they were up to was in “the public interest,” as Hamilton laughingly argued, then why was it so important to hide it all from the public?

The main objective of the nationalists, Rothbard explains, was to “place the all-powerful national government beyond popular control.” James Madison was one of the chief nationalist theorists who concocted the theory that a large, centralized government would somehow prevent the abuse of electoral minorities by majorities, the main argument of Federalist #10. Rothbard correctly points out that exactly the opposite is true, as has been proven time and again by history. It is decentralization that makes “the oppression of minorities” more difficult, not consolidation. Nevertheless, the nationalists sought to crush the states altogether, for that is how the vaunted “people” had their only means of exerting any kind of control over the central government – as political communities organized at the state and local levels.
Hamilton was the most despotic in this regard. Rothbard quotes him as saying, “We must establish a general and national government, completely sovereign, and annihilate the state distinctions and state operations.” To Hamilton, “British monarchical government” was “the model for the American framers to follow,” even though they had just fought a bloody revolution to escape from such a system. Hamilton’s “ideal polity,” wrote Rothbard, was such that “no clearer blueprint could have been devised for absolute despotism.” (This perhaps is why the Broadway play “Hamilton” has been so wildly popular among today’s American statist class).

The Hamiltonian nationalists mastered the dark art of “fake news” some 230 years before Donald Trump made it a part of the American lexicon. Rothbard describes how most postmasters were Federalists who had a “stranglehold” over the nation’s press (newspapers were all delivered by mail). Consequently, they were able to “dictate the news at will” by censoring out opposition to the nationalist agenda while broadcasting it far and wide, giving the nation the false impression that there was not opposition to it. Many other means of what Rothbard labeled “the depths of chicanery” were employed by the nationalists to rig the ratification votes in most states. They even employed “outright bribery,” as Rothbard documents.

All in all, the new constitution was not the charter of freedom that generations of conservatives have insisted. The nationalists, said Rothbard, used “propaganda, chicanery, fraud, malapportionment of delegates, blackmail threats of secession, and even coercive laws to get enough delegates to defy the wishes of the majority of the American people . . .” A “new super government was emerging and carrying out on a national scale the mercantilist principle of taxation, regulation, and special privilege for the benefit of favored groups.” They even protected slavery with the Three-Fifths Clause and the Fugitive Slave Clause in order to get their consolidating, mercantilist constitution. The Constitution was in reality “a counterrevolutionary reaction to the libertarianism and decentralization embodied in the American Revolution” that would “institute a British-style mercantilism over the country.”
...
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/11/thomas-dilorenzo/deceived-in-liberty-the-curse-of-american-nationalism/

Anti Federalist
11-16-2019, 11:14 AM
In this regard American “nationalism” has nothing to do with the older concept of a people with a common language and culture, living within the borders of their own nation state.

I am more than willing to use secession as the tool to achieve that goal.

Brian4Liberty
11-16-2019, 12:12 PM
Interesting article. The twist being that it is not talking about today’s definitions of “nationalism”, and instead focuses on the founding of the US, and the Constitution, defining nationalism as those who supported a strong, central, Federal government.

Thus, the vast majority of America today would be defined as nationalist, especially those socialists who are trying to increase and expand the central Federal government even more.

Anti Globalist
11-16-2019, 12:16 PM
It seems that this curse will continue and never be broken.

Brian4Liberty
11-16-2019, 12:27 PM
Hamilton is currently the most popular founding father, especially on the left...


The unique American version of “nationalism” was invented at the time of the founding by a group of conniving, Machiavellian politicians who sought to overthrow the results of the American Revolution – the casting off of the centralized, oppressive, mercantilist/crony capitalist British empire – and adopt the very same system in America – the British empire without the British. There is nothing wrong with a corrupt, tyrannical, mercantilist empire that uses the coercive powers of the state to enrich the ruling class at the expense of the working class, these men said, confident that they would naturally assume the position of the ruling class.

These men were led by the likes of Alexander Hamilton, John Adams, Sam Adams, John Hancock, Thomas Paine, and other “Federalists,” many of who were “defectors” to the cause of liberty – ...
...
This point calls to mind another statist superstition – that Alexander Hamilton was some kind of educated genius when it came to economic theory, whereas his political nemesis, Thomas Jefferson, was sort of a dopey agrarian dreamer on the subject who supposedly wanted all of America to be “a nation of farmers.” Exactly the opposite is true: In his biography of Hamilton William Graham Sumner described his writings as a jumble of British mercantilists superstitions copied from propaganda pamphlets written by publicists for protectionists and other mercantilists. When Hamilton’s political sponsor, Robert Morris, told George Washington that he wanted Hamilton to be the first Treasury Secretary, Washington told Hamilton that he didn’t know that he knew anything about finance since they never talked about it, as described in Ron Chernow’s Pulitzer prize-winning biography of Hamilton.
...
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/11/thomas-dilorenzo/deceived-in-liberty-the-curse-of-american-nationalism/

jon4liberty
11-16-2019, 01:29 PM
Murray Rothbard supported Pat Buchanon...
Lew Rockwell supported Pat Buchanon...

OPEN BORDERs!! More socialism/communism!! More immigration baby

Swordsmyth
11-16-2019, 04:26 PM
Murray Rothbard supported Pat Buchanon...
Lew Rockwell supported Pat Buchanon...

OPEN BORDERs!! More socialism/communism!! More immigration baby
Let's pick one definition of nationalism and use it to slander all kinds of nationalism.
DEATH TO AMERICA!:sarcasm:

Anti Globalist
11-16-2019, 04:58 PM
Hamilton is currently the most popular founding father, especially on the left...
Fuck Hamilton. Hes literally the reason central banking even exists.

PAF
11-16-2019, 06:11 PM
Let's pick one definition of nationalism and use it to slander all kinds of nationalism.


I’m down with that provided we advocate individual liberty, private property rights and true free markets.



DEATH TO AMERICA!:sarcasm:


America, or Corporate Amerika?

Nah, never mind, you are a very good “republican”, indeed. LOL

Swordsmyth
11-16-2019, 06:17 PM
I’m down with that provided we advocate individual liberty, private property rights and true free markets.




America, or Corporate Amerika?

Nah, never mind, you are a very good “republican”, indeed. LOL
:sleeping:

phill4paul
11-16-2019, 06:29 PM
Interesting article. The twist being that it is not talking about today’s definitions of “nationalism”, and instead focuses on the founding of the US, and the Constitution, defining nationalism as those who supported a strong, central, Federal government.


And that is what was done. Re-defining "nationalism" to make it a dirty word.


In this regard American “nationalism” has nothing to do with the older concept of a people with a common language and culture, living within the borders of their own nation state.

Well, yes, the "older concept." Which is exactly how I define it. Which is why I have no problem using the word despite the author's attempt to slander it's original intent.

Ender
11-16-2019, 06:44 PM
And that is what was done. Re-defining "nationalism" to make it a dirty word.



Well, yes, the "older concept." Which is exactly how I define it. Which is why I have no problem using the word despite the author's attempt to slander it's original intent.

Did any of you even read the friggin' article?

Do you know who Thomas DiLorenzo is?

Do you know anything about the CONstitution or who/what Hamilton really was?

acptulsa
11-16-2019, 06:51 PM
Did any of you even read the friggin' article?

Read? You're asking the Kneejerk Reactions R Us Brigade if they read the OP before they started spamming the thread with their usual clichés? You think they want to know if their pet peeves have the slightest relevance to the conversation?

Is that a serious question?

Stratovarious
11-16-2019, 06:52 PM
Did any of you even read the friggin' article?

Do you know who Thomas DiLorenzo is?

Do you know anything about the CONstitution or who/what Hamilton really was?
God Bless American Nationalism!!

Stratovarious
11-16-2019, 06:53 PM
Read? You're asking the Kneejerk Reactions R Us Brigade if they read the OP before they started spamming the thread with their usual clichés?

Is that a serious question?

Your post reads like a cliché < bravo

acptulsa
11-16-2019, 06:55 PM
God Bless American Nationalism!!

...and the Constitution which has caused one hell of a lot more problems than the Articles of Confederation were causing.

Yee fucking haw.


Your post reads like a cliché < bravo

And your posts read like you were afraid to read the OP, lest your lips get too tired.

Swordsmyth
11-16-2019, 07:00 PM
And that is what was done. Re-defining "nationalism" to make it a dirty word.



Well, yes, the "older concept." Which is exactly how I define it. Which is why I have no problem using the word despite the author's attempt to slander it's original intent.
We don't need to call Centralized Federalism "Nationalism".
It's very obvious that the point is to confuse and trick people into opposing Nationalism

acptulsa
11-16-2019, 07:07 PM
We don't need to call Centralized Federalism "Nationalism".
It's very obvious that the point is to confuse and trick people into opposing Nationalism

You're saying DiLorenzo penned this thoughtful and informative essay trashing the Federalists for the sole purpose of confusing you as to which definition of nationalism he was using?

You want to concoct a conspiracy theory around this? Seriously?

Tell you what. Let's get Anti Federalist in here to tell you what, if anything, is wrong with this piece.

Swordsmyth
11-16-2019, 07:10 PM
You're saying DiLorenzo penned this thoughtful and informative essay trashing the Federalists for the sole purpose of confusing you as to which definition of nationalism he was using?

You want to concoct a conspiracy theory around this? Seriously?

Tell you what. Let's get @Anti Federalist (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=3169) in here to tell you what, if anything, is wrong with this piece.

Did I say it was the SOLE purpose of the article?
NO

But the choice was made to imitate the left and twist the definition of the word Nationalism to slander the real version.

phill4paul
11-16-2019, 07:12 PM
Did any of you even read the friggin' article?

Do you know who Thomas DiLorenzo is?

Do you know anything about the CONstitution or who/what Hamilton really was?

Yeah, I did. Yeah, I know.

I still stand by my examination.

The "Articles of Confederation" did, indeed, create a Nation of States. And there was, indeed a people with a common language and culture, living within the borders of their own Nations State's. Bound together in defense of common goals.

This "nationalism" brought about the move for Independence and separation from the British Empire.

Did it, or did it not?

phill4paul
11-16-2019, 07:14 PM
Did I say it was the SOLE purpose of the article?
NO

But the choice was made to imitate the left and twist the definition of the word Nationalism to slander the real version.

And that is EXACTLY what was done. An imitation of the left to re-interpret original meaning.

acptulsa
11-16-2019, 07:26 PM
Did I say it was the SOLE purpose of the article?
NO

But the choice was made to imitate the left and twist the definition of the word Nationalism to slander the real version.

Either that, or DiLorenzo can be taken at face value, and you're the one seizing a semantic shibboleth to drive a wedge between modern conservatives and the message of the Anti-Federalists.

Because the good Lord knows you're as big a Federalist as any libtard.

Swordsmyth
11-16-2019, 07:38 PM
Either that, or DiLorenzo can be taken at face value, and you're the one seizing a semantic shibboleth to drive a wedge between modern conservatives and the message of the Anti-Federalists.
He's the one who chose the word which is aimed to cause division.


Because the good Lord knows you're as big a Federalist as any libtard.
LOL
I am constantly in favor of reduced federal power and even secession.
But you never miss a chance to slander me.

Brian4Liberty
11-16-2019, 07:49 PM
You're saying DiLorenzo penned this thoughtful and informative essay trashing the Federalists for the sole purpose of confusing you as to which definition of nationalism he was using?

You want to concoct a conspiracy theory around this? Seriously?

Tell you what. Let's get Anti Federalist in here to tell you what, if anything, is wrong with this piece.


Did I say it was the SOLE purpose of the article?
NO

But the choice was made to imitate the left and twist the definition of the word Nationalism to slander the real version.

Sometimes clever headline twists are simply used to generate interest and readers. My take is that DiLorenzo just told the far left that they are the biggest nationalists. The best art leaves something to the observer to interpret.

Swordsmyth
11-16-2019, 07:52 PM
Sometimes clever headline twists are simply used to generate interest and readers. My take is that DiLorenzo just told the far left that they are the biggest nationalists. The best art leaves something to the observer to interpret.
If that was his purpose then it was a bad idea.
Slandering Nationalism to own the libs only aids their goals.

phill4paul
11-16-2019, 08:24 PM
Sometimes clever headline twists are simply used to generate interest and readers. My take is that DiLorenzo just told the far left that they are the biggest nationalists. The best art leaves something to the observer to interpret.

Possibly. But, I didn't read it that way. How many libs read DiLorenzo?

Ender
11-16-2019, 10:02 PM
The REAL version of freedom was the Federation of States. The CONstitution was a Hamiltonian coup to set up a big central gov, restore mercantilism (the main reason for the Revolution), and to imitate Britain in elitism & ruling the populace.

This was called "Nationalism"and it has worked beautifully.

If you can see and understand this, you are waking up- if you worship the state more than individual liberty then welcome to The Matrix.

Anti Federalist
11-19-2019, 12:16 AM
You're saying DiLorenzo penned this thoughtful and informative essay trashing the Federalists for the sole purpose of confusing you as to which definition of nationalism he was using?

You want to concoct a conspiracy theory around this? Seriously?

Tell you what. Let's get Anti Federalist in here to tell you what, if anything, is wrong with this piece.

Sorry, missed this one...what is the main argument here?
acptulsa

Swordsmyth
11-19-2019, 12:21 AM
Sorry, missed this one...what is the main argument here?
@acptulsa (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=12430)
On my side the issue is the choice of using the word Nationalism to describe the politics of the Federalists which slanders current Nationalism even though it is unrelated.