Berlin Sending Trump A Piece of Their Wall

[Zippyjuan]

https://qz.com/1745087/berliners-troll-trump-sending-him-a-2-7-ton-piece-of-berlin-wall/

"No wall lasts forever".

https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/The-Wall-against-Walls-09.jpg?quality=75&strip=all&w=1600&h=1067


US president Donald Trump will be receiving a special gift from Berlin residents on the 30th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall—a 2.7-ton section of the wall itself.

The stunt is squarely directed at Trump’s vow to build a wall along the US-Mexico border, a part of his “zero tolerance” immigration policy.

“We would like to give you one of the last pieces of the failed Berlin Wall to commemorate the United States’ dedication to building a world without walls,” says a message painted on the concrete slab, which is signed by “Citizens of Berlin.”

“Germany is united again and in Berlin only a few scattered pieces remind us that no wall lasts forever.”

The project’s orchestrators, Berlin-based pro-democracy nonprofit Die Offene Gesellschaft, said they informed the White House about the project earlier this week, but have yet to hear whether the gift will be accepted. They plan to hand over the section on the evening of Nov. 9, marking exactly 30 years since the wall fell.

“If the President accepts the letter, it’s his. But gifts to a sitting president always belong to the United States and not to the individual in office. It belongs to the people,” Die Offene Gesellshaft managing director Philip Husemann told Quartz. “So we hope this letter will end up in a public place where all citizens can read it. After all, the main message is a big ‘thank you’ from the Berliners to the United States and its people.”

The White House didn’t immediately respond to a query as to whether they will accept it.

Die Offene Gesellschaft acquired the object from a dealer in Berlin who had a few pieces of the wall in his possession, Huseman said. The group then flew it to New York and trucked it down to Washington. Financed entirely by private donations, Huseman said it cost “in the low five-figure range to purchase the piece of the Wall and transport it overseas.”

Trump is yet to deliver on his signature campaign promise of building a “big, beautiful” border wall, which he swore Mexico would finance. So far, his efforts have cost US taxpayers some $10 billion. Newly built sections of Trump’s border wall have been easily breached by smugglers, however, and the US government is now offering roughly $300 million in contracts to monitor future construction quality.

[Swordsmyth]

Foreign interference in the election.
Where's the outrage?

[Swordsmyth]

Sanction Germany!

[acptulsa]

LOL

And some people think the Germans humorless.

[Swordsmyth]

The 30th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall is tomorrow, Nov. 9, and on cue the American left is hard at work distorting and lying about history, communism and, of course, walls. Particularly walls.

At New College of Florida, the Honors College for the Florida university system and a hotbed of far left ideas and activism, students have been building a replica of a segment of the Berlin Wall on campus. Today, they are taking sledgehammers to it — as was done 30 years ago. This seems like a perfect opportunity to talk about communism, dictatorships, and freedoms in the West.

After all, as Hope Harrison, George Washington University associate professor of history and international affairs, pointed out during the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall: “The wall symbolized the lack of freedom under communism. It symbolized the Cold War and divide between the communist Soviet bloc and the western democratic, capitalist bloc.”

But that’s apparently not exactly the first thing it symbolizes for New College.

According to local media (https://www.sarasotamagazine.com/articles/2019/11/7/remembering-the-berlin-wall) reports, “The project was organized by professor Lauren Hansen, who is currently teaching a course called The Berlin Wall in German Literature and Film. In January, Hansen led an independent study about the portrayal of the Berlin Wall in German literature, and the idea for the replica wall was created by her small group of students. While other universities have created replica walls in the past, New College students also reenacted historical speeches, presented film screenings, and held graffiti sessions and poster presentation sessions.”

So far, so good. But wait. “Creating the wall also turned into a timely project about national and international experiences of separating groups of people, cities and countries, notes Hansen.”

So this immediately equates American conservatives and President Trump who advocate securing our southern border for fundamental reasons of national sovereignty and safety of the American people with the East German communists who sought to imprison their people — when the history of American political movements actually puts the left directly in line with the communists. Ask Sen. Bernie Sanders who honeymooned in the Soviet Union.

Further, Hansen said of the wall replica: “It has become a place where students and faculty from the entire university can come to discuss borders and the divisiveness we encounter today in the U.S. and other parts of the world.”

This is the sleight of hand that has been going on for some time now, claiming all walls are bad — but really only meaning Trump’s border wall is bad. What is obvious to people who are not pants-on-fire hypocrites or astonishingly foolish and ignorant, is that different walls have different purposes.

No sane person argues that walls around prisons are bad for dividing murderers and rapists from the rest of the population. Wealthy leftists don’t argue that walls around their estates are bad for keeping out criminals, vandals and just sight-seers.

We have “walls” around movie theaters, sporting events, Disney World and so on. Why? To divide those who have legal status to be inside (via following the rules and paying for admission) from those who do not have legal status who must remain outside. Movie stars who take advantage of the arrangement, and have walls around their own mansions, still abhor a border wall as divisive and racist. Ditto for many athletes.

Germany was formally divided in 1949 and the wall went up in 1961. The East German communist party never had popular support, distrusted its citizens and ruled with an iron fist. Refugees left East Germany for economic and political reasons, causing a brain drain. In the intervening years, more than 3 million East Germans “voted with their feet” by moving to West Germany.

To equate that wall to our border wall would have meant the West Germans would have put up the Berlin Wall to keep the East Germans out. But it was the East Germans who did so, to stem the flow out of East Berlin. There’s a fundamental difference between a wall that locks people in like a prison wall and the Berlin Wall, and a wall that protects and establishes legal borders, such as movie theaters, sporting events, Disney and national borders.

More at: https://therevolutionaryact.com/mangling-truth-berlin-wall/

[Swordsmyth]

LOL

And some people think the Germans humorless.
None have ever denied their facility for propaganda.
Goebbels would be proud.

[AngryCanadian]

LOL Is this the same Germany which under Angela Merkel allowed one million and half male migrants mostly male into Germany,Europe and in Austria?


dedication to building a world without walls,” says a message painted on the concrete slab, which is signed by “Citizens of Berlin.”
Yes i am sure OPEN Borders had worked wonders for the actual people of Germany and Berlin right?

[AngryCanadian]

The New Germany.
https://i1.wp.com/www.nationalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/refugees-europe-welfare-state-b-2.jpg?fit=788%2C460&ssl=1
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/pics/3245.jpg

Why has Germany and Europetaken in so many many male migrants with shaved cuts to look younger liberals?
https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/010_project1.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/f8/fd/dc/f8fddc96ede04c7a8e9143c179516930--national-geographic.jpg

[Swordsmyth]

The New Germany.
https://i1.wp.com/www.nationalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/refugees-europe-welfare-state-b-2.jpg?fit=788%2C460&ssl=1
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/pics/3245.jpg

Why has Germany and Europetaken in so many many male migrants with shaved cuts to look younger liberals?
https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/010_project1.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/f8/fd/dc/f8fddc96ede04c7a8e9143c179516930--national-geographic.jpg

Civil war or Sharia soon to follow.

[Zippyjuan]

People forget that Berlin was not on the border between East and West Germany but near the middle of East Germany. After the war, the powers who defeated Germany, The US, Britain, Russia, and France divided the city up into quadrants they controlled. When the Communists cracked down, the Western sectors kept control of their areas and citizens began to flee the communists by going to those areas. The Germans (and Russians) put up barriers to stop them- eventually constructing the wall. They cut off access and the Berlin Air Lift was started to get supplies to the isolated city. Planes flew non- stop day and night to keep the city going.

I visited Berlin when the wall was still up. You get on a train in West Germany. When it reached East Germany, it stopped and all of the Western staff and conductor got off and the East German crew took over. The process was repeated in reverse upon arrival at Berlin. At one point along the wall, there was some repair work being done. For each person on the Eastern side working, there was an armed guard watching them in case they got any ideas of leaving. On the West side, people waited in case help was needed if somebody did try to escape.

http://www.berlinunwrapped.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/the-four-sectors-of-berlin-from-1945-to-1990-map.jpg

[Swordsmyth]

People forget that Berlin was not on the border between East and West Germany but near the middle of East Germany. After the war, the powers who defeated Germany, The US, Britain, Russia, and France divided the city up into quadrants they controlled. When the Communists cracked down, the Western sectors kept control of their areas and citizens began to flee the communists by going to those areas. The Germans (and Russians) put up barriers to stop them- eventually constructing the wall. They cut off access and the Berlin Air Lift was started to get supplies to the isolated city. Planes flew non- stop day and night to keep the city going.

I visited Berlin when the wall was still up. You get on a train in West Germany. When it reached East Germany, it stopped and all of the Western staff and conductor got off and the East German crew took over. The process was repeated in reverse upon arrival at Berlin. At one point along the wall, there was some repair work being done. For each person on the Eastern side working, there was an armed guard watching them in case they got any ideas of leaving. On the West side, people waited in case help was needed if somebody did try to escape.

http://www.berlinunwrapped.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/the-four-sectors-of-berlin-from-1945-to-1990-map.jpg

West Berlin was an island of West Germany inside East Germany and the Berlin wall was a border between East and West.

[Anti Federalist]

And here I was, all set to post a lengthy thought on the fall of the Berlin wall, which marked the beginning of the end of the Evil Empire, and how 30 years later, we're getting ready to elect our own Stalin Sanders for president because idiot kids and migrant invaders have the memory of fucking gnats.

But I see Zip already made a thread about it

Too bad it was only to make a cheap political point and score some yuks bashing Trump...carry fucking on.

[AngryCanadian]

And here I was, all set to post a lengthy thought on the fall of the Berlin wall, which marked the beginning of the end of the Evil Empire, and how 30 years later, we're getting ready to elect our own Stalin Sanders for president because idiot kids and migrant invaders have the memory of $#@!ing gnats.

But I see Zip already made a thread about it

Too bad it was only to make a cheap political point and score some yuks bashing Trump...carry $#@!ing on.

By the way i had taken a look at the guys and group behind this spefic wall who were giving it to Trump they are known as "pro-democracy nonprofit Die Offene Gesellschaft"

Mostly Liberal leftist organization and an NGO that has supported solidarity marches for migrants in Berlin.
They are questionable

[euphemia]

They also put up a statue of Ronald Regan.

[Anti Federalist]

By the way i had taken a look at the guys and group behind this spefic wall who were giving it to Trump they are known as "pro-democracy nonprofit Die Offene Gesellschaft"

Mostly Liberal leftist organization and an NGO that has supported solidarity marches for migrants in Berlin.
They are questionable

Another bunch of self loathing, white, pro-invasionists...I'm shocked...shocked I tell you.

[nobody's_hero]

I doubt Germany is gonna exist in a generation. If there was ever a nation committing suicide by guilt, it'd be Germany.

[AngryCanadian]

I doubt Germany is gonna exist in a generation. If there was ever a nation committing suicide by guilt, it'd be Germany.
I am hopeful because AFD is slowly growing but even with potical parties that wont change.
There are these TPTB types in Europe who i wont name here. They want German whites to forgive themselves to show their guilt for what they had in WW1 and WW2. Not Just Germans though but Europeans as well.

Dispute the fact and history that Europeans created the modern civilization as it is today.

[AngryCanadian]

They also put up a statue of Ronald Regan.

That is rather ironic probably because of his words of tear down that wall and his open borders policy.

[PursuePeace]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3V5DrbFUcY

[Anti Globalist]

If Germany ever sent me a piece of their wall, I'd sent it right back to them.

[Anti Federalist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3V5DrbFUcY

His German is pretty good.

If I had to fathom a guess, if not just outright trolling, that this was a native black German, trying to rouse some sense of fight and responsibility in his fellow weak, white Germans to try and save their, and his, nation...before it turns into an African shithole that he fled.

True migrant invaders never talk like this...although they may act like it.

They are, as much as they can possibly be, polite, helpless and meek, reeking of pathos and detestable pity.

It is their most powerful weapon, and they know it.

[Swordsmyth]

His German is pretty good.

If I had to fathom a guess, if not just outright trolling, that this was a native black German, trying to rouse some sense of fight and responsibility in his fellow weak, white Germans to try and save their, and his, nation...before it turns into an African $#@!hole that he fled.

True migrant invaders never talk like this...although they may act like it.

They are, as much as they can possibly be, polite, helpless and meek, reeking of pathos and detestable pity.

It is their most powerful weapon, and they know it.
As their numbers grow and the natives continue to grovel they will become ever bolder and aggressive.

[r3volution 3.0]

Berlin Sending Trump A Piece of Their Wall

At what velocity?

[enhanced_deficit]

Joke is on them cuz MAGA is not going with the wall, his new plan is to build support for see through steel slats barrier:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?532470-Ann-Coulter-Trump-by-the-Numbers&p=6767450&viewfull=1#post6767450


https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2019-01/0c2f2280-14e6-11e9-aafd-a49d6331181e





Also, he supports Big Heart 'diversity is our strength' approach now.

Trump says he will treat Dreamers 'with heart'
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...s-heart-235103 (https://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-press-conference-dreamers-heart-235103)

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/AJwG8tF1A2tVJ4fJb4rhTbNbVuI=/0x0:633x331/fit-in/1200x630/cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9245523/Screen_Shot_2017_09_14_at_10.41.46_AM.png


(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?531872-Can-Trump-win-2020-with-Hispanic-Moderate-GOP-Dems-votes&p=6757575&viewfull=1#post6757575)Trump’s Secret to Victory in 2020: Hispanic Voters (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?531872-Can-Trump-win-2020-with-Hispanic-Moderate-GOP-Dems-votes&p=6757575&viewfull=1#post6757575)



Multicultural diversity celeberation
Trump celebrates new citizens in Oval Office ceremony

http://3lq1ku40fh612q5lii5rfl0n.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/ap_f2b33265c5674c4e94f5313abb6423a0-620x370.jpg
President Donald Trump attends a naturalization ceremony in the Oval Office of the White House, in Washington, Saturday, Jan. 19, 2019. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

January 20th, 2019

http://media-cdn.wehco.com/img/photos/2019/01/20/190906940_190906940-3feffff08d874857902e9222455b00aa384138644_t1070_hc e511ae8710bab353cb03027c763bd2450856ecf.jpg
WASHINGTON (AP) — On a day focused on his demand for a border wall, President Donald Trump used music and pageantry to welcome “the five newest members of our great American family” during a naturalization ceremony in the Oval Office.

[Anti Federalist]

As their numbers grow and the natives continue to grovel they will become ever bolder and aggressive.

Oh, no doubt...at some point...and it will happen overnight.

The remaining remnant will be voted into silence and second class citizenship, at best.

At worst...we get our throats slit in the middle of the night.

[r3volution 3.0]

The neocon plan has always been to destroy the EU, for the perceived benefit of the US (as to world domination).

MAGA adds to this, maybe, perhaps (what phase of the moon is it?), the casual destruction of NATO.

...which means the destruction of the EU, since the EU doesn't yet have a common army.

It would be in the interest of the neocons for the EU to dissolve, and for there to be another war in Europe.

...here's hoping they fail, massively.

[Swordsmyth]

The neocon plan has always been to destroy the EU, for the perceived benefit of the US (as to world domination).

MAGA adds to this, maybe, perhaps (what phase of the moon is it?), the casual destruction of NATO.

...which means the destruction of the EU, since the EU doesn't yet have a common army.

It would be in the interest of the neocons for the EU to dissolve, and for there to be another war in Europe.

...here's hoping they fail, massively.
The EU is the one destroying itself in an attempt to destroy its people, what is happening is as bad as a war and guaranteed to cause one.
The only hope for peace would be the end of the EU but its probably too late.

[Pauls' Revere]

People forget that Berlin was not on the border between East and West Germany but near the middle of East Germany. After the war, the powers who defeated Germany, The US, Britain, Russia, and France divided the city up into quadrants they controlled. When the Communists cracked down, the Western sectors kept control of their areas and citizens began to flee the communists by going to those areas. The Germans (and Russians) put up barriers to stop them- eventually constructing the wall. They cut off access and the Berlin Air Lift was started to get supplies to the isolated city. Planes flew non- stop day and night to keep the city going.

I visited Berlin when the wall was still up. You get on a train in West Germany. When it reached East Germany, it stopped and all of the Western staff and conductor got off and the East German crew took over. The process was repeated in reverse upon arrival at Berlin. At one point along the wall, there was some repair work being done. For each person on the Eastern side working, there was an armed guard watching them in case they got any ideas of leaving. On the West side, people waited in case help was needed if somebody did try to escape.

http://www.berlinunwrapped.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/the-four-sectors-of-berlin-from-1945-to-1990-map.jpg

Global Gerrymandering.

[Pauls' Revere]

Sanction Germany!

No, remove our troops.

[Swordsmyth]

No, remove our troops.
Of course.
That will be worse for them than any sanctions and noninterventionist.

(I was being sarcastic before)

[Pauls' Revere]

Of course.
That will be worse for them than any sanctions and noninterventionist.

(I was being sarcastic before)

I know you were ;)

Trump should do a 50% drawdown.

[r3volution 3.0]

The EU is the one destroying itself in an attempt to destroy its people, what is happening is as bad as a war and guaranteed to cause one.
The only hope for peace would be the end of the EU but its probably too late.

The EU was created in response to the one hundred million people killed in the last two wars.

Its basic purpose was to prevent that from ever happening again.

Serious liberals, and I mean liberals in the proper sense of the word, liberals like Mises, played a major role in creating it.

If you don't like it now, make a complaint in Paris or Berlin or Rome, not Brussels; Brussels has no power.

The EU is the loosest of loose confederations.

The member states have much more power than the southern American states wanted, for instance.

[r3volution 3.0]

I might add, as to the neocon desire to destroy the EU, this is an instance of the East Coast Establishment's slavish devotion to Britain.

That is, this is a continuation of England's age old policy of stimulating wars on the continent, to benefit England.

...that would be a real "deep state," Trumptards..

[Swordsmyth]

The EU was created in response to the one hundred million people killed in the last two wars.

Its basic purpose was to prevent that from ever happening again.

Serious liberals, and I mean liberals in the proper sense of the word, liberals like Mises, played a major role in creating it.

If you don't like it now, make a complaint in Paris or Berlin or Rome, not Brussels; Brussels has no power.

The EU is the loosest of loose confederations.

The member states have much more power than the southern American states wanted, for instance.
It was created to impose global government by unelected elites with socialist/tyrannical tendencies and to destroy the relatively freedom oriented cultures of Europe.
It has been tightening its grip and is intended to be much more powerful than the US Federal government but it has been resisted, that is why the destruction of the European peoples was accelerated.

[Swordsmyth]

I might add, as to the neocon desire to destroy the EU, this is an instance of the East Coast Establishment's slavish devotion to Britain.

That is, this is a continuation of England's age old policy of stimulating wars on the continent, to benefit England.

...that would be a real "deep state," Trumptards..
Perfidious Albion is indeed an enemy to be wary of but that doesn't make the EU a good thing, it's just another enemy of liberty.

[Swordsmyth]

I know you were ;)

Trump should do a 50% drawdown.
100%
Any he doesn't bring home just yet should be moved to friendlier countries.

[PursuePeace]

His German is pretty good.

If I had to fathom a guess, if not just outright trolling, that this was a native black German, trying to rouse some sense of fight and responsibility in his fellow weak, white Germans to try and save their, and his, nation...before it turns into an African $#@!hole that he fled.

True migrant invaders never talk like this...although they may act like it.

They are, as much as they can possibly be, polite, helpless and meek, reeking of pathos and detestable pity.

It is their most powerful weapon, and they know it.


That was my take, as well.
Aufwachen!

[Zippyjuan]

Putin would love the EU to go away and US alliances to weaken.

[Swordsmyth]

Putin would love the EU to go away and US alliances to weaken.
And so would Ron Paul.

[Stratovarious]

The EU was created in response to the one hundred million people killed in the last two wars.

Its basic purpose was to prevent that from ever happening again.

Serious liberals, and I mean liberals in the proper sense of the word, liberals like Mises, played a major role in creating it.

If you don't like it now, make a complaint in Paris or Berlin or Rome, not Brussels; Brussels has no power.

The EU is the loosest of loose confederations.

The member states have much more power than the southern American states wanted, for instance.

So they import a hundred million Muslims to murder them , sure, I see now.

:frog:

[AngryCanadian]

Putin would love the EU to go away and US alliances to weaken.

There are many in the Balkans, Greece, Italy, Spain who would the EU to go away. The EU was the results of Post WW2 creation and idea, but either way the EU will cease and become and end up like the Soviet Union nothing lasts forever nor do empires and unions.

[Stratovarious]

The EU was created in response to the one hundred million people killed in the last two wars.

Its basic purpose was to prevent that from ever happening again.

Serious liberals, and I mean liberals in the proper sense of the word, liberals like Mises, played a major role in creating it.

If you don't like it now, make a complaint in Paris or Berlin or Rome, not Brussels; Brussels has no power.

The EU is the loosest of loose confederations.

The member states have much more power than the southern American states wanted, for instance.

No , that's backwards.

The purpose of EU is not to prevent wars, it's too cement and strengthen an alliance for eventual wars that they can win.

[r3volution 3.0]

It was created to impose global government by unelected elites with socialist/tyrannical tendencies and to destroy the relatively freedom oriented cultures of Europe.

No, nationalist 21st century person, it was in fact created by French and Germans who didn't want to bury their entire families again.


It has been tightening its grip and is intended to be much more powerful than the US Federal government but it has been resisted, that is why the destruction of the European peoples was accelerated.

I find that most people who criticize the EU have no idea how it works.

Anything of consequence in the EU must be passed unanimously by the member states.

In comparison, if Texas doesn't like a federal law, what happens?

The federal courts order Texas to follow the law, and if they don't, President Lincoln kills a million people to persuade them.


Perfidious Albion is indeed an enemy to be wary of but that doesn't make the EU a good thing, it's just another enemy of liberty.

If you're inclined to conspiratorial thinking (I mean fact based, not anonymous twitter dude based), Perfidious Albion is THE enemy.

The round table groups? The Fabian society? Morgan?

Whereas, to paraphase Cassius Clay, the French never did nothing to me.

[Swordsmyth]

No, nationalist 21st century person, it was in fact created by French and Germans who didn't want to bury their entire families again.



I find that most people who criticize the EU have no idea how it works.

Anything of consequence in the EU must be passed unanimously by the member states.

In comparison, if Texas doesn't like a federal law, what happens?

The federal courts order Texas to follow the law, and if they don't, President Lincoln kills a million people to persuade them.
The EU has used its various powers to bribe and blackmail the rulers of the member states and it is and always was pushing for more power.
It is a project bent on tyranny and it is engaging in it to a shocking degree already.




If you're inclined to conspiratorial thinking (I mean fact based, not anonymous twitter dude based), Perfidious Albion is THE enemy.

The round table groups? The Fabian society? Morgan?

Whereas, to paraphase Cassius Clay, the French never did nothing to me.
The French have done their share and so have the Germans and the EU.
None of them are our friends or to be admired.

[r3volution 3.0]

The EU has used its various powers to bribe and blackmail the rulers of the member states and it is and always was pushing for more power.
It is a project bent on tyranny and it is engaging in it to a shocking degree already.

The French have done their share and so have the Germans and the EU.
None of them are our friends or to be admired.

Of course my horse...

If you find the EU tyrannical, I assume you are for the immediate dissolution of the federal government of the United States?

...and you fail to understand that, if the feds didn't monopolize X, the states would take over the regulation of X, and do just the same thing.

What's that great line from "The Patriot" - 1 tyrant 3000 miles away or 3000 tyrants 1 mile away

:confused:

[Swordsmyth]

Of course my horse...

If you find the EU tyrannical, I assume you are for the immediate dissolution of the federal government of the United States?
I could think of worse things.
But the EU is far more tyrannical and far less accountable.


...and you fail to understand that, if the feds didn't monopolize X, the states would take over the regulation of X, and do just the same thing.

What's that great line from "The Patriot" - 1 tyrant 3000 miles away or 3000 tyrants 1 mile away

:confused:
It's much harder to hold the distant tyrant with massive resources accountable.

[r3volution 3.0]

I could think of worse things.
But the EU is far more tyrannical and far less accountable.

The EU is more tyrannical relative its member states than the US federal government is relative our states...?

The EU can do almost nothing without unanimous consent of all member states.

The feds here can do virtually anything, without even talking to the states.


It's much harder to hold the distant tyrant with massive resources accountable.

Like the one in the District of Columbia, which is in every way more powerful than the one is Brussels?

[Pauls' Revere]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

Constitutionally, the EU bears some resemblance to both a confederation and a federation,[129][130] but has not formally defined itself as either. (It does not have a formal constitution: its status is defined by the Treaty of European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union). It is more integrated than a traditional confederation of states because the general level of government widely employs qualified majority voting in some decision-making among the member states, rather than relying exclusively on unanimity.[131][132] It is less integrated than a federal state because it is not a state in its own right: sovereignty continues to flow 'from the bottom up', from the several peoples of the separate member states, rather than from a single undifferentiated whole. This is reflected in the fact that the member states remain the 'masters of the Treaties', retaining control over the allocation of competences to the Union through constitutional change (thus retaining so-called Kompetenz-kompetenz); in that they retain control of the use of armed force; they retain control of taxation; and in that they retain a right of unilateral withdrawal from the Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union. In addition, the principle of subsidiarity requires that only those matters that need to be determined collectively are so determined.

During the centuries following the fall of Rome in 476, several European States viewed themselves as translatio imperii ("transfer of rule") of the defunct Roman Empire: the Frankish Empire (481–843) and the Holy Roman Empire (962–1806) were thereby attempts to resurrect Rome in the West.[f] This political philosophy of a supra-national rule over the continent, similar to the example of the ancient Roman Empire, resulted in the early Middle Ages in the concept of a renovatio imperii ("restoration of the empire"),[24] either in the forms of the Reichsidee ("imperial idea") or the religiously inspired Imperium Christianum ("christian empire").[25][26] Medieval Christendom[27][28] and the political power of the Papacy[29][30] are often cited as conducive to European integration and unity.
In the oriental parts of the continent, the Russian Tsardom, and ultimately the Empire (1547–1917), declared Moscow to be Third Rome and inheritor of the Eastern tradition after the fall of Constantinople in 1453.[31] The gap between Greek East and Latin West had already been widened by the political scission of the Roman Empire in the 4th century and the Great Schism of 1054; and would be eventually widened again by the Iron Curtain (1945–91).[32]
Pan-European political thought truly emerged during the 19th century, inspired by the liberal ideas of the French and American Revolutions after the demise of Napoléon's Empire (1804–15). In the decades following the outcomes of the Congress of Vienna, ideals of European unity flourished across the continent, especially in the writings of Wojciech Jastrzębowski,[33] Giuseppe Mazzini[34] or Theodore de Korwin Szymanowski.[35] The term United States of Europe (French: États-Unis d'Europe) was used at that time by Victor Hugo during a speech at the International Peace Congress held in Paris in 1849:[36]


Just another Empire...

[r3volution 3.0]

Perhaps the greatest irony of the whole business is this: Britain wants to leave, and the EU is letting them leave.

How did that work for South Carolina?

...I don't see Macron leading an army across the chunnel to burn London to the ground.

(I see moronic Englishman unwilling to accept the consequences of their decisions and dithering)

[Swordsmyth]

The EU is more tyrannical relative its member states than the US federal government is relative our states...?

The EU can do almost nothing without unanimous consent of all member states.

The feds here can do virtually anything, without even talking to the states.
Relative to the people it rules over.
It gets its way with their national governments through bribery and blackmail.




Like the one in the District of Columbia, which is in every way more powerful than the one is Brussels?
That is a problem we face but at least we get to vote for the leaders.
Bad as the US government is it doesn't violate our rights to the same degree that the EU violates the rights of the people of Europe.
And so far we have been able to keep it from trying to destroy and replace us so nakedly as the EU is doing to its people.

[Swordsmyth]

Perhaps the greatest irony of the whole business is this: Britain wants to leave, and the EU is letting them leave.

How did that work for South Carolina?

...I don't see Macron leading an army across the chunnel to burn London to the ground.

(I see moronic Englishman unwilling to accept the consequences of their decisions and dithering)
The EU is doing everything it can under the table to prevent the British from leaving.
Lincoln was worse but you would side with him.

[Swordsmyth]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

Constitutionally, the EU bears some resemblance to both a confederation and a federation,[129][130] but has not formally defined itself as either. (It does not have a formal constitution: its status is defined by the Treaty of European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union). It is more integrated than a traditional confederation of states because the general level of government widely employs qualified majority voting in some decision-making among the member states, rather than relying exclusively on unanimity.[131][132] It is less integrated than a federal state because it is not a state in its own right: sovereignty continues to flow 'from the bottom up', from the several peoples of the separate member states, rather than from a single undifferentiated whole. This is reflected in the fact that the member states remain the 'masters of the Treaties', retaining control over the allocation of competences to the Union through constitutional change (thus retaining so-called Kompetenz-kompetenz); in that they retain control of the use of armed force; they retain control of taxation; and in that they retain a right of unilateral withdrawal from the Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union. In addition, the principle of subsidiarity requires that only those matters that need to be determined collectively are so determined.

During the centuries following the fall of Rome in 476, several European States viewed themselves as translatio imperii ("transfer of rule") of the defunct Roman Empire: the Frankish Empire (481–843) and the Holy Roman Empire (962–1806) were thereby attempts to resurrect Rome in the West.[f] This political philosophy of a supra-national rule over the continent, similar to the example of the ancient Roman Empire, resulted in the early Middle Ages in the concept of a renovatio imperii ("restoration of the empire"),[24] either in the forms of the Reichsidee ("imperial idea") or the religiously inspired Imperium Christianum ("christian empire").[25][26] Medieval Christendom[27][28] and the political power of the Papacy[29][30] are often cited as conducive to European integration and unity.
In the oriental parts of the continent, the Russian Tsardom, and ultimately the Empire (1547–1917), declared Moscow to be Third Rome and inheritor of the Eastern tradition after the fall of Constantinople in 1453.[31] The gap between Greek East and Latin West had already been widened by the political scission of the Roman Empire in the 4th century and the Great Schism of 1054; and would be eventually widened again by the Iron Curtain (1945–91).[32]
Pan-European political thought truly emerged during the 19th century, inspired by the liberal ideas of the French and American Revolutions after the demise of Napoléon's Empire (1804–15). In the decades following the outcomes of the Congress of Vienna, ideals of European unity flourished across the continent, especially in the writings of Wojciech Jastrzębowski,[33] Giuseppe Mazzini[34] or Theodore de Korwin Szymanowski.[35] The term United States of Europe (French: États-Unis d'Europe) was used at that time by Victor Hugo during a speech at the International Peace Congress held in Paris in 1849:[36]


Just another Empire...
Which has been pursuing a plan to take ever more direct power for itself as was always the plan.

[r3volution 3.0]

Relative to the people it rules over.
It gets its way with their national governments through bribery and blackmail.

Do you have no understanding of how the federal government here operates?

Google "federal preemption."

Look into how federal highway funds and other funds are used to bribe states to follow federal diktat.

The federal government here can do virtually anything, at its own discretion, without even informing the States.

If you say that this is the same as in the EU (where most things require unanimous consent of members), that means that either:

(a) you're spinning (because the truth doesn't fit your worldview)

or, (b) you're an imbecile (which I don't believe)


That is a problem we face but at least we get to vote for the leaders.

Every single leader of the EU is either elected or appointed by someone who's elected, just as here.

...not that elections are a good idea (see Mencken), but that's another discussion.


Bad as the US government is it doesn't violate our rights to the same degree that the EU violates the rights of the people of Europe.

Our federal government interferes in our lives FAR more than the EU interferes in the lives of the citizens of the members states of the EU.


And so far we have been able to keep it from trying to destroy and replace us so nakedly as the EU is doing to its people.

...look in the mirror 'Murican


The EU is doing everything it can under the table to prevent the British from leaving.
Lincoln was worse but you would side with him.

Is the EU fighting a war to prevent Britain from seceding?

Nope

Is there actually a provision in the EU treaties allowing Britain to leave?

Yep

But the EU federation is tyrannical, compared to the American....

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/emojis/rollingeyes.png

[Pauls' Revere]

Do you have no understanding of how the federal government here operates?

Google "federal preemption."

Look into how federal highway funds and other funds are used to bribe states to follow federal diktat.

The federal government here can do virtually anything, at its own discretion, without even informing the States.

If you say that this is the same as in the EU (where most things require unanimous consent of members), that means that either:

(a) you're spinning (because the truth doesn't fit your worldview)

or, (b) you're an imbecile (which I don't believe)



Every single leader of the EU is either elected or appointed by someone who's elected, just as here.

...not that elections are a good idea (see Mencken), but that's another discussion.



Our federal government interferes in our lives FAR more than the EU interferes in the lives of the citizens of the members states of the EU.



...look in the mirror 'Murican



Is the EU fighting a war to prevent Britain from seceding?

Nope

Is there actually a provision in the EU treaties allowing Britain to leave?

Yep

But the EU federation is tyrannical, compared to the American....

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/emojis/rollingeyes.png

No member state has yet left the Union, although Greenland (an autonomous province of Denmark) withdrew in 1985.[113] Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty provides the basis for a member to leave the Union.[114] Since mid-2017, the United Kingdom has been negotiating terms for its withdrawal from the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union#Procedure

Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union, enacted by the Treaty of Lisbon on 1 December 2009, introduced for the first time a procedure for a member state to withdraw voluntarily from the EU.[9] The article states that:[11]
Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3)[12] of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council [of the European Union], acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
This provision does not cover certain overseas territories which under TFEU Article 355 do not require a full treaty revision.[13]

[r3volution 3.0]

If John McCain were still haunting us, he'd make the same argument as you are @Swordsmyth (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=65299)

...because the US foreign policy establishment is desperately opposed to European unity.

The purpose of the US commitment to Europe has always been: Russia out, America in, Germany down.

Well, Russia's finished as a great power (and will in the very long run join us against their aggressive neighbor China anyway) and Germany already controls Europe financially, because they're far more productive than the French. So why is the US there? To prevent German informal domination from becoming formal domination. The US is in the process of "Copenhagen-ing" the EU, or Germany in particular, if you understand that historical reference. They want to control Europe, but that isn't possible, and they're going to end up alienating it.

But, the US is going to be stretched to the breaking point with China, which, contra your belief, is not on the verge of collapse. The Chinese is probably already a larger economy than ours, if you use a purchasing power parity measure of GDP, which makes more sense in the case of China than nominal because they don't import all that much. In any event, the US is going to bleed itself white (to use the term of General Falkenhayn) trying to contain China over the next couple decades, and the Europeans are going to offer moral support: which is to say they're going to let the US (and little buddy Britain) bleed themselves white while they themselves make trillions of dollars trading with the Chinese and their associates.

[Swordsmyth]

If John McCain were still haunting us, he'd make the same argument as you are @Swordsmyth (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=65299)

...because the US foreign policy establishment is desperately opposed to European unity.

The purpose of the US commitment to Europe has always been: Russia out, America in, Germany down.

Well, Russia's finished as a great power (and will in the very long run join us against their aggressive neighbor China anyway) and Germany already controls Europe financially, because they're far more productive than the French. So why is the US there? To prevent German informal domination from becoming formal domination. The US is in the process of "Copenhagen-ing" the EU, or Germany in particular, if you understand that historical reference. They want to control Europe, but that isn't possible, and they're going to end up alienating it.

But, the US is going to be stretched to the breaking point with China, which, contra your belief, is not on the verge of collapse. The Chinese is probably already a larger economy than ours, if you use a purchasing power parity measure of GDP, which makes more sense in the case of China than nominal because they don't import all that much. In any event, the US is going to bleed itself white (to use the term of General Falkenhayn) trying to contain China over the next couple decades, and the Europeans are going to offer moral support: which is to say they're going to let the US (and little buddy Britain) bleed themselves white while they themselves make trillions of dollars trading with the Chinese and their associates.
LOL

That's ridiculous.
What McCain may or may not have said or what his motives for doing so would be don't affect the truth of the argument.
The Devil can quote scripture.
And China is going down hard soon.

[oyarde]

Berlin has always been a shithole . I have a small pc of the wall as a souvenir on a shelf in my living room. I took it off the commie side after the wall was built and before it came down .

[r3volution 3.0]

LOL

That's ridiculous.
What McCain may or may not have said or what his motives for doing so would be don't affect the truth of the argument.
The Devil can quote scripture.
And China is going down hard soon.

Suppose that you're wrong and the nationalism you're endorsing will lead to apocalyptic nuclear war.

...6 billion dead people.

...might be something to cogitate on.

[Swordsmyth]

Suppose that you're wrong and the nationalism you're endorsing will lead to apocalyptic nuclear war.

...6 billion dead people.

...might be something to cogitate on.
Suppose you are wrong and the globalism you espouse does?

[r3volution 3.0]

Suppose you are wrong and the globalism you espouse does?

States don't have much incentive to nuke their own subjects.

I'd like to see all of the people of the West united in a federation, which would mean the US et al joining the EU, or everyone joining some new entity. This would include Russia, ultimately, after a non-retarded US President negotiated a solution re Ukraine and Georgia. This would prevent a Sino-American war, simply because the Chinese couldn't possibly win against that kind of block. The very big picture is that human beings on Earth will have to come together at some point, contra this tribalism, or there will be a nuclear war and we will revert to the stone age.

[Swordsmyth]

States don't have much incentive to nuke their own subjects.

I'd like to see all of the people of the West united in a federation, which would mean the US et al joining the EU, or everyone joining some new entity. This would include Russia, ultimately, after a non-retarded US President negotiated a solution re Ukraine and Georgia. This would prevent a Sino-American war, simply because the Chinese couldn't possibly win against that kind of block. The very big picture is that human beings on Earth will have to come together at some point, contra this tribalism, or there will be a nuclear war and we will revert to the stone age.

States can kill just as many without them and they are more likely to use them when globalism causes them to fight for dominance of the global empire.

We can avoid nuclear war without surrendering to a tyrannical global empire.

[r3volution 3.0]

States can kill just as many without them and they are more likely to use them when globalism causes them to fight for dominance of the global empire.

We can avoid nuclear war without surrendering to a tyrannical global empire.

There's no reason that a federation (whether of American states, or European states, or Western states, or all of the states in this world) has to be tyrannical, that's just your silly nationalistic bias. But if there isn't some kind of union, if war continues, the endgame is pretty obvious. We (or our ancestors, depending on our age) could very easily have all been annihilated in October 1962. On a long enough timeline, with enough of those crises, it will eventually go wrong. And then, additionally, we have "missile defense," which actually means the ability to launch a first strike and survive the retaliatory strike. This is becoming a real possibility and is severely undermining MAD, which has kept the peace since the end of the last war. If there are any statesmen, as opposed to politicians, remaining in this democratic world, some very serious choices are going to need to be made quite soon. Do we want to get nuked and lose every development of the last two thousand years in the name of Germany and America and Japan and so forth, or do we want to not have that war.

[Swordsmyth]

There's no reason that a federation (whether of American states, or European states, or Western states, or all of the states in this world) has to be tyrannical, that's just your silly nationalistic bias. But if there isn't some kind of union, if war continues, the endgame is pretty obvious. We (or our ancestors, depending on our age) could very easily have all been annihilated in October 1962. On a long enough timeline, with enough of those crises, it will eventually go wrong. And then, additionally, we have "missile defense," which actually means the ability to launch a first strike and survive the retaliatory strike. This is becoming a real possibility and is severely undermining MAD, which has kept the peace since the end of the last war. If there are any statesmen, as opposed to politicians, remaining in this democratic world, some very serious choices are going to need to be made quite soon. Do we want to get nuked and lose every development of the last two thousand years in the name of Germany and America and Japan and so forth, or do we want to not have that war.
You sound like Republicanguy.

The larger a government is the greater its tendency to become tyrannical.
And there is no reason separate nations can't remain at peace.
Missile Defense is the solution to the problem you fear so much, if nukes are destroyed in space without firing their payloads then nuclear war will become pointless.

[r3volution 3.0]

You sound like Republicanguy.

Don't be an ass.


The larger a government is the greater its tendency to become tyrannical.
And there is no reason separate nations can't remain at peace.
Missile Defense is the solution to the problem you fear so much, if nukes are destroyed in space without firing their payloads then nuclear war will become pointless.

There's no reason that criminals have to commit crimes, ...and yet they, somehow, do.

Maybe you can identify for us a time and place in world history when and where neighboring states didn't go to war.

Ancient Greece...nope

Ancient Italy...nope

Medieval Europe...lol

...?

O wait, I know, states since 1945...

See: Missile Defense, end of MAD

[Swordsmyth]

There's no reason that criminals have to commit crimes, ...and yet they, somehow, do.

Maybe you can identify for us a time and place in world history when and where neighboring states didn't go to war.

Ancient Greece...nope

Ancient Italy...nope

Medieval Europe...lol

...?

As soon as you list a time when large empires didn't go to war.
Small nations wage small wars (and less frequently) and large empires wage large wars. (and more frequently)

[r3volution 3.0]

As soon as you list a time when large empires didn't go to war.
Small nations wage small wars (and less frequently) and large empires wage large wars. (and more frequently)

Small state systems (such as ancient Greece or medieval Italy) fight many more wars than empires (e.g. Rome).

But, as interesting as this topic may be, it isn't really relevant to the issue in question, is it?

One war between one nuclear armed power and another means the end of the world as we know it.

If that war happens yearly, then we're all dead in a year; if happens every 5 years, then we're all dead in 5 years; etc.

SS, if the year were 550 A.D., and it were spears and bows, I wouldn't be so worked up.

The whole problem is that war now is apocalyptically destructive.

We have gotten disturbingly good at killing one another.