Requiem for a Constitution

[acptulsa]

The US government refuses to take my American client off a Kill List

------------

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-syria-drones-kill-list-first-amendment-dni-ukraine-a9127116.html

Does the US Constitution allow President Donald Trump to order the assassination of innocent Americans in total secrecy? Such a question seems absurd; unfortunately, a US District judge has just answered in the affirmative.

Bilal Kareem is a US citizen of Syrian origin, who was living in Brooklyn and working as a stand-up comedian. Frustrated by the news coverage of the conflict in Syria and especially the failure of journalists to interview and try to understand the experience of the people actually involved in the conflict, Kareem moved to Aleppo and established the YouTube channel On the Ground News TV, which provided content to news outlets around the world.

Suddenly, drones started firing missiles at him. In the summer of 2016, he was nearly killed by Hellfire missiles fired by Predator drones five times.

Nobody but the US had weaponized drones in the region at the time. Based on publicly available information about how the US uses cellphone data to identify targets, it seemed likely that the US government had concluded, probably based upon its algorithms, that because Bilal Kareem was spending time interviewing rebels, he was a rebel himself. The result of using software to determine who to kill resulted in the US targeting one of its own, who was actually engaging in a deeply important First Amendment activity.

In 2017, Reprieve and my law firm filed a suit on behalf of Kareem and another Syria-based journalist in Washington DC, arguing that they had a due process right not to be placed on a Kill List and targeted for execution without being able to challenge the basis for that decision.

“He seeks his birthright,” wrote Judge Rosemary Collyer, a George W Bush appointee, “…a timely assertion of his due process rights under the Constitution to be heard before he might be included on the Kill List and his First Amendment rights to free speech before he might be targeted for lethal action due to his profession.”

This was a landmark ruling, and to most readers it would seem like common sense. However, the government then sought to dismiss it on the grounds that the government would have to reveal “state secrets” in telling Kareem whether or not he had been targeted and why.

This was a case in which the state secrets privilege would be tested against a US citizen’s right not to be killed by his government without some form of due process, and perhaps an opportunity to suggest why killing him was a mistake. The motion was accompanied by affidavits, largely classified, from the Director of National Intelligence and the Acting Secretary of Defense.

We argued that the government’s claim to be able to inflict death by drone strike made Bilal Kareem akin to a criminal defendant in a capital case, albeit facing execution without trial. In cases where the government relies on state secrets to prosecute a crime, and refuses to disclose them, the government must dismiss the case. Here, the government could simply have stated that whether or not Kareem had ever been on the Kill List, or could promise to take no efforts to try to kill him. But the government was unwilling to do that. It sought to prevent any from any judicial oversight of its decision.

The court found that the state secrets privilege was absolute; that the government had shown there was a national security concern that protected it from providing any information, even in a classified setting; and so any legal objection to Bilal Kareem’s assassination would be summarily dismissed.

[CCTelander]

The "state secrets privillege" is absolute. But the fundamental natural rights of individuals, rights. that are supposed to be beyond the law-making power of government, are not.

I woke up on Bizarro World today, didn't I?

[acptulsa]

The "state secrets privillege" is absolute. But the fundamental natural rights of individuals, rights. that are supposed to be beyond the law-making power of government, are not.

I woke up on Bizarro World today, didn't I?

The bizarre part isn't that the powerful found the Bill of Rights too inconvenient to live. The bizarre part is, when Clintons are involved the partisans fill the air with indignation. Otherwise... Crickets.

[CCTelander]

The bizarre part isn't that the powerful found the Bill of Rights too inconvenient to live. The bizarre part is, when Clintons are involved the partisans fill the air with indignation. Otherwise... Crickets.


Sadly, I'm not finding that to be all that bizarre anymore. Just seems like business as usual around here nowadays.

[Origanalist]

The "state secrets privillege" is absolute. But the fundamental natural rights of individuals, rights. that are supposed to be beyond the law-making power of government, are not.

I woke up on Bizarro World today, didn't I?

Today? Damn, I got here along time ago. How do I get back?

[acptulsa]

Sadly, I'm not finding that to be all that bizarre anymore. Just seems like business as usual around here nowadays.

Well, evil doesn't surprise me. It exists; it always has. The thing that continues to amaze me is the hypocrisy of those who virtue-signal outrage over it, unless 'their team' is the one perpetuating it.

This GOP administration inherited this evil. But I don't see anything being done about it by The Great Swamp Drainers.

Rah, rah.

[CCTelander]

Well, evil doesn't surprise me. It exists; it always has. The thing that continues to amaze me is the hypocrisy of those who virtue-signal outrage over it, unless 'their team' is the one perpetuating it.

This GOP administration inherited this evil. But I don't see anything being done about it by The Great Swamp Drainers.

Rah, rah.


Not to worry. I'm sure that from here on out only the "right" people will be put on "kill lists" for summary execution.

[Anti Globalist]

Cmon now. I doubt Trump has ever hired assassins to kill someone even before he was president.

[Anti Federalist]

Absolutely abhorrent.

Which is why troops should be withdrawn asap.

[acptulsa]

Absolutely abhorrent.

Which is why troops should be withdrawn asap.

I'm ready for them to surround and lay seige to Washington, D.C.

[Brian4Liberty]

The bizarre part isn't that the powerful found the Bill of Rights too inconvenient to live. The bizarre part is, when Clintons are involved the partisans fill the air with indignation. Otherwise... Crickets.


Sadly, I'm not finding that to be all that bizarre anymore. Just seems like business as usual around here nowadays.

If only Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams would just quit obsessing about Clinton and Obama, this place would perfect!


At the 14:20 mark Ron Paul reminds us that Obama and Hillary are to blame for the Syria mess. They supported regime change, and giving arms and other support to unreliable militants and extremists.

[Swordsmyth]

If only Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams would just quit obsessing about Clinton and Obama, this place would perfect!
No, Ron must declare America to be the great Satan for this place to be perfect, then we could all shout "Death to America" every time we log in.
The banner at the top of the page should be changed to a burning American flag too.

[acptulsa]

The banner at the top of the page should be changed to a burning American flag too.

What does that flag represent? A nation bound together by a brilliant constitution? Or a government that sends machines to perform summary executions of its citizens?

We aren't burning the flag by crying, "Foul!" The flag is burning, but we aren't doing it.

And that is something your orange alpha seems unable or unwilling to address.

[Swordsmyth]

What does that flag represent? A nation bound together by a brilliant constitution? Or a government that sends machines to perform summary executions of its citizens?

We aren't burning the flag by crying, "Foul!" The flag is burning, but we aren't doing it.

And that is something your orange alpha seems unable or unwilling to address.
:rolleyes:

Trump is turning things around as best he can, you are sitting back and throwing things at him while cheering for the destruction of the country and shouting about how evil it is.

[shakey1]

All smells like... tyranny.

[CCTelander]

Apparently, unless you're willing to bend over and TAKE that Hellfire Missile while waving an American flag, singing Lee Greenwood and cheering both Donald Trump and a judicial decision that calls the "state secrets privilege" "absolute," placing it above the fundamental rights of individuals, well then by Tru, er, I mean God you must hate America. Who knew?

[bv3]

:rolleyes:

Trump is turning things around as best he can, you are sitting back and throwing things at him while cheering for the destruction of the country and shouting about how evil it is.

When I see Donald Trump I see Manchurian opposition to the destruction of liberty. The biggest thing he has going for him is the pretend contempt of the leaders of the left. Orange is the new black is about the most honest thing that could be said of him. The only way Donald Trump could be worse for liberty is if he were twins. Sorry Swordsmyth, your guy is an utter fraud.

[Swordsmyth]

When I see Donald Trump I see Manchurian opposition to the destruction of liberty. The biggest thing he has going for him is the pretend contempt of the leaders of the left. Orange is the new black is about the most honest thing that could be said of him. The only way Donald Trump could be worse for liberty is if he were twins. Sorry Swordsmyth, your guy is an utter fraud.
:sleeping:

Nobody could do more than he is doing, he is far from perfect but his faults are much less a problem than the traitors in the bureaucracy and Congress.

If he or any other POTUS tried to do more and compromise less they would be impeached (they are perilously close to doing that anyway) or assassinated. (There have been some attempts already)

[bv3]

:sleeping:

Nobody could do more than he is doing, he is far from perfect but his faults are much less a problem than the traitors in the bureaucracy and Congress.

If he or any other POTUS tried to do more and compromise less they would be impeached (they are perilously close to doing that anyway) or assassinated. (There have been some attempts already)

Meh, in any case I'd take acptulsa over the entire Republican Party, especially the brass tool--and I've never even met him. Not alone in that I'm sure. I don't understand why you push for Trump here, while you admit that he is far from perfect, instead of pushing for better liberty candidates in Trump's forums? You could really get something going.

[Swordsmyth]

Meh, in any case I'd take acptulsa over the entire Republican Party, especially the brass tool--and I've never even met him. Not alone in that I'm sure. I don't understand why you push for Trump here, while you admit that he is far from perfect, instead of pushing for better liberty candidates in Trump's forums? You could really get something going.
I push for the best available candidate and to support those who are more good than bad wherever I post, there is no better alternative to Trump at this time. (I have said I would support a better candidate before and I would but they wouldn't be able to accomplish any more than Trump)

[heavenlyboy34]

What does that flag represent? A nation bound together by a brilliant constitution? Or a government that sends machines to perform summary executions of its citizens?

We aren't burning the flag by crying, "Foul!" The flag is burning, but we aren't doing it.

And that is something your orange alpha seems unable or unwilling to address.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to acptulsa again. :( /kurwa

[bv3]

I push for the best available candidate and to support those who are more good than bad wherever I post, there is no better alternative to Trump at this time. (I have said I would support a better candidate before and I would but they wouldn't be able to accomplish any more than Trump)

You are a bit too thoughtful to actually hold that position...because its ridiculous. In the absence of a war declaration our military is deployed at the pleasure of the president: why are they still deployed? Don't say global stability, and don't say China--expending trillions in treasure has decreased the one while empowering the other.

[heavenlyboy34]

Absolutely abhorrent.

Which is why troops should be withdrawn asap.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.
/KURWA damn repper's broke toady

[CCTelander]

/KURWA damn repper's broke toady


Covered.

[Swordsmyth]

You are a bit too thoughtful to actually hold that position...because its ridiculous. In the absence of a war declaration our military is deployed at the pleasure of the president: why are they still deployed? Don't say global stability, and don't say China--expending trillions in treasure has decreased the one while empowering the other.
You are oversimplifying politics, what the President has the technical power to do and what he can do without being railroaded out of office or assassinated are not the same at all, Trump must compromise with some factions to stay alive and in office, he has tried to reduce how much he gives in those compromises and it has brought him to the cusp of impeachment.

[CCTelander]

Today? Damn, I got here along time ago. How do I get back?


Sorry brother. It's kinda like a Black Flag Roach Motel for liberty lovers. We can check in, but we don't check out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKhGHxO-woc

[bv3]

You are oversimplifying politics, what the President has the technical power to do and what he can do without being railroaded out of office or assassinated are not the same at all, Trump must compromise with some factions to stay alive and in office, he has tried to reduce how much he gives in those compromises and it has brought him to the cusp of impeachment.

No, that point is just as simple as it seems: the president is the commander in chief, thus the president--in the absence of an actual war (as declared by congress) is entirely responsible for continued foreign adventures or, if he is truly wishes the country well, the end of those adventures.

If your support of Trump is seriously based on him merely doing what he can to not be assassinated then you admit implicitly that he is a coward and unfit to bear the standard of liberty. You are essentially saying that Trump is holding us hostage to stay alive and in power.

[Swordsmyth]

No, that point is just as simple as it seems: the president is the commander in chief, thus the president--in the absence of an actual war (as declared by congress) is entirely responsible for continued foreign adventures or, if he is truly wishes the country well, the end of those adventures.

If your support of Trump is seriously based on him merely doing what he can to not be assassinated then you admit implicitly that he is a coward and unfit to bear the standard of liberty. You are essentially saying that Trump is holding us hostage to stay alive and in power.
Congress and the deepstate are holding us hostage and Trump is the hostage negotiator, Congress can and will impeach him over made up garbage completely unrelated to the foreign policy they object to if he doesn't play his cards right, we are in the midst of an attempt to culminate that plan right now which means he has come as close to defying the establishment as he can or has even gone too far because the left thinks they can get away with actually pulling the trigger on impeachment, we will see if they are correct.

[bv3]

Congress and the deepstate are holding us hostage and Trump is the hostage negotiator, Congress can and will impeach him over made up garbage completely unrelated to the foreign policy they object to if he doesn't play his cards right, we are in the midst of an attempt to culminate that plan right now which means he has come as close to defying the establishment as he can or has even gone too far because the left thinks they can get away with actually pulling the trigger on impeachment, we will see if they are correct.

I do not care. Bring the troops home and risk the trial. Its what an honest president would do. Even if he is impeached, what possible candidate would be able to redeploy the troops? It would never happen. He could very easily do the country he claims to love a great service--but doesn't.

[Swordsmyth]

I do not care. Bring the troops home and risk the trial. Its what an honest president would do. Even if he is impeached, what possible candidate would be able to redeploy the troops? It would never happen. He could very easily do the country he claims to love a great service--but doesn't.
There are quite a few wars waiting to be started that Trump is resisting but that Pence would start or that POTUS Pelosi (they want to get rid of Pence too) would start.
Trump is doing the country a great service and that's only talking about wars without even getting into the domestic issues that POTUS Pelosi would inflict on us.

[bv3]

There are quite a few wars waiting to be started that Trump is resisting but that Pence would start or that POTUS Pelosi (they want to get rid of Pence too) would start.
Trump is doing the country a great service and that's only talking about wars without even getting into the domestic issues that POTUS Pelosi would inflict on us.

Would you agree that if the military were brought home that nothing short of WWIII would result in them being deployed again?

So he has ended all the wars except the ones actually being fought?

[Swordsmyth]

Would you agree that if the military were brought home that nothing short of WWIII would result in them being deployed again?
No, and he would be removed before the withdrawals were anywhere near completed, the Pentagon is full of deepstate operatives and is quite capable of dragging its feet if impeachment is coming.


So he has ended all the wars except the ones actually being fought?
He's working on those and that's why he is so close to being impeached.

[bv3]

No, and he would be removed before the withdrawals were anywhere near completed, the Pentagon is full of deepstate operatives and is quite capable of dragging its feet if impeachment is coming.


He's working on those and that's why he is so close to being impeached.

I don't know whats to work on, is it that hard to draft a simple order that essentially states: You are hereby ordered to return to the United States- Signed, The President of the United States, or whatever a direct order from the president to the Chiefs of Staff looks like. He could put a video of his issuance of this order out on twitter, too.

What candidate could sell a war to Americans? Not even the media could do it again.

[Swordsmyth]

I don't know whats to work on, is it that hard to draft a simple order that essentially states: You are hereby ordered to return to the United States- Signed, The President of the United States, or whatever a direct order from the president to the Chiefs of Staff looks like. He could put a video of his issuance of this order out on twitter, too.

What candidate could sell a war to Americans? Not even the media could do it again.
What's to work on is to arrange the end of the current wars in ways that please enough allies in politics to keep from being impeached and convicted before the orders are actually carried out.

[Swordsmyth]

What candidate could sell a war to Americans? Not even the media could do it again.
Just give them no choice, Pence or some other warhawk running as a Republican vs. anyone but Gabbard (even she would double-cross the public once elected).
Pence or Pelosi could even launch one or more before the next election.
And with the right kind of false flag they probably could get the public to support it too, Wilson was re-elected on the "He kept us out of war" platform but that all changed when a ship got sunk.

[bv3]

Just give them no choice, Pence or some other warhawk running as a Republican vs. anyone but Gabbard (even she would double-cross the public once elected).
Pence or Pelosi could even launch one or more before the next election.
And with the right kind of false flag they probably could get the public to support it too, Wilson was re-elected on the "He kept us out of war" platform but that all changed when a ship got sunk.

Yeah, but after that cataclysm it was twenty years before they could railroad the public into another war. I'm not saying this is the end of war, but should they end its the end of war for awhile.

[CCTelander]

While many of us here on RPF are being savagely excoriated for daring to express skepticism over Trump's intentions, the Trump administration continues to maintain a "kill list" of people they claim the right to summarily execute, and continues to assert the just authority to add the names of American Citizens to that list with impunity. Priorities.

[TheCount]

While many of us here on RPF are being savagely excoriated for daring to express skepticism over Trump's intentions, the Trump administration continues to maintain a "kill list" of people they claim the right to summarily execute, and continues to assert the just authority to add the names of American Citizens to that list with impunity. Priorities.

You don't understand... He has to do that, because of reasons that Swordsmyth will happily tell you.


The problem, obviously, is that the President isn't powerful enough. We need to keep giving him more and more power until he does the things that he says that he wants to do...

[CCTelander]

You don't understand... He has to do that, because of reasons that Swordsmyth will happily tell you.


The problem, obviously, is that the President isn't powerful enough. We need to keep giving him more and more power until he does the things that he says that he wants to do...


Still waiting for those "reasons." Not holding breath.

[CCTelander]

Bump

[bv3]

Still waiting for those "reasons." Not holding breath.
Because he doesn't want to be assassinated, apparently.

[CCTelander]

Because he doesn't want to be assassinated, apparently.


Riiiigggghhhht.

Apparently unwilling to afford the same "security" to the rest of us.

[Swordsmyth]

Because he doesn't want to be assassinated, apparently.

Or impeached and replaced with someone horrible.

[Swordsmyth]

Riiiigggghhhht.

Apparently unwilling to afford the same "security" to the rest of us.
Him remaining in office is providing security to the rest of us that would vanish overnight if he was impeached or assassinated.

[bv3]

Riiiigggghhhht.

Apparently unwilling to afford the same "security" to the rest of us.

he is good at 'appearing,' I'll give him that. Although, it is my belief that even his appearance is cultivated more by his 'opponents' than by any virtue of his own.

[bv3]

Him remaining in office is providing security to the rest of us that would vanish overnight if he was impeached or assassinated.

No, his remaining in office suffices to deprive legitimate candidates the support that won the presidency.

[Swordsmyth]

No, his remaining in office suffices to deprive legitimate candidates the support that won the presidency.
Not really.
They would be kept from winning in the first place and assassinated or impeached if they did win.

[bv3]

Not really.
They would be kept from winning in the first place and assassinated or impeached if they did win.
Swordsmyth, by that very logic: How is it Trump, being such a threat in his pursuit of office (as evidenced by his promises) isn't underground?

[Swordsmyth]

Swordsmyth, by that very logic: How is it Trump, being such a threat in his pursuit of office (as evidenced by his promises) isn't underground?
Because he has made deals and compromises to get parts of the swamp to work with and defend him while he makes incremental progress.

[acptulsa]

No, his remaining in office suffices to deprive legitimate candidates the support that won the presidency.


Not really.
They would be kept from winning in the first place...

Um, yeah, that's what he said. They packaged him the way you package him and sold him 24/7 the way you sell him 12/7. Thereby starving legitimate candidates of support in a silly, horse race primary system.

That's what he said.

[bv3]

Because he has made deals and compromises to get parts of the swamp to work with and defend him while he makes incremental progress.

But if he was in a position to extract concessions from 'the swamp,' that indicates he had the potential to threaten the swamp. Why would the swamp allow an entity that could threaten it into office? Do you think, perhaps, that the swamp made deals with Trump, and that you have it backwards?

[Swordsmyth]

But if he was in a position to extract concessions from 'the swamp,' that indicates he had the potential to threaten the swamp. Why would the swamp allow an entity that could threaten it into office? Do you think, perhaps, that the swamp made deals with Trump, and that you have it backwards?
The swamp is not united and he had enough support to offer some of them against others that some allied with him, he was not able to threaten the swamp without the support of some of the swamp.

[bv3]

The swamp is not united and he had enough support to offer some of them against others that some allied with him, he was not able to threaten the swamp without the support of some of the swamp.

Oh, but the swamp would unite to eliminate another candidate? As they did Ron Paul. Interesting way of saying that Trump's strongest asset is his lack of integrity. I agree.

There is but one swamp and Trump is right at home.

[Swordsmyth]

Oh, but the swamp would unite to eliminate another candidate? As they did Ron Paul. Interesting way of saying that Trump's strongest asset is his lack of integrity. I agree.

There is but one swamp and Trump is right at home.
Knowing how to compromise to use the factions of the swamp against itself is not a lack of integrity, it is a different tactical approach that is allowing Trump to begin the process of draining it and getting good things done.

Trump is not the President we want but he is the President we need right now.

[bv3]

"In lieu of shooting myself in the face, I've elected to perish of exposure." A modern compromise.

[Swordsmyth]

"In lieu of shooting myself in the face, I've elected to perish of exposure." A modern compromise.
If it gives you time to walk home it works.
And Trump is doing better than that.

[bv3]

If it gives you time to walk home it works.
And Trump is doing better than that.
Yeah, that's apparent.

[CCTelander]

I've noticed that amid all this back and forth intended to convince us that Trump is really all right, and is helping to move us closer to real liberty, the fact that the Trump administration continues to maintain a "kill list" of people they claim the right to summarily execute, and continues to assert the just authority to add the names of American Citizens to that list with impunity is being ignored or forgotten. Just thought I'd correct that.

[Swordsmyth]

I've noticed that amid all this back and forth intended to convince us that Trump is really all right, and is helping to move us closer to real liberty, the fact that the Trump administration continues to maintain a "kill list" of people they claim the right to summarily execute, and continues to assert the just authority to add the names of American Citizens to that list with impunity is being ignored or forgotten. Just thought I'd correct that.
We do indeed have a VERY long way to go and Trump is just the beginning.

[CCTelander]

We do indeed have a VERY long way to go and Trump is just the beginning.


As usual, a policy that's pure evil with quite literally no redeeming aspects, and which Trump could end with the stroke of a pen, legitimately, and you're once again praising him with faint criticism, at best.

[Swordsmyth]

As usual, a policy that's pure evil with quite literally no redeeming aspects, and which Trump could end with the stroke of a pen, legitimately, and you're once again praising him with faint criticism, at best.

Trump can't end it with the stroke of a pen and stay alive and unimpeached.

[CCTelander]

Trump can't end it with the stroke of a pen and stay alive and unimpeached.


Spare me the fantasy melodrama. The way you Trump fanbois have set things up there is, quite literally, NOTHING, no matter how evil or depraved that Trump can do or fail to do that will result in any serious criticism by you. There is an excuse for everything.

Now, maintaining a fucking "kill list" of people he claims the just authority to summarily execute, even American citizens at his whim, is forgivable because "The Devil made me do it."(Or not do it in the current instance.)

Whatever.

[Swordsmyth]

Spare me the fantasy melodrama. The way you Trump fanbois have set things up there is, quite literally, NOTHING, no matter how evil or depraved that Trump can do or fail to do that will result in any serious criticism by you. There is an excuse for everything.

Now, maintaining a $#@!ing "kill list" of people he claims the just authority to summarily execute, even American citizens at his whim, is forgivable because "The Devil made me do it."(Or not do it in the current instance.)

Whatever.
Trump is improving things, if he stops improving things I will criticize him.
I have also criticized him for some things already, the bumpstock ban being one example.


Trump is one man and not a dictator/god, he didn't get to have people loyal to him elected to a majority in Congress, he didn't even get to clean out and replace the entire executive branch.
The swamp is very old and very large, it can't be drained completely overnight by one man, if he didn'y make deals and play factions against eachother he would get nothing done and be either impeached or assassinated.
It is unlikely that Ron or Rand could have accomplished more or stayed in office as long.

[CCTelander]

Trump is improving things, if he stops improving things I will criticize him.
I have also criticized him for some things already, the bumpstock ban being one example.



I said "serious" criticism. Your criticism is almost always flaccid and unconvincing.




Trump is one man and not a dictator/god, he didn't get to have people loyal to him elected to a majority in Congress, he didn't even get to clean out and replace the entire executive branch.
The swamp is very old and very large, it can't be drained completely overnight by one man, if he didn'y make deals and play factions against eachother he would get nothing done and be either impeached or assassinated.
It is unlikely that Ron or Rand could have accomplished more or stayed in office as long.


And here we go again with the rationalizations and justifications. In other words, the excuses. Real life people are dying and you're all "Give him time." Sorry, if he can't stand the heat, he should have stayed out of the kitchen.

And once again with the fantasy melodrama.

Enjoy the circus. Some of us grew out of that shit decades ago.

[Swordsmyth]

I said "serious" criticism. Your criticism is almost always flaccid and unconvincing.






And here we go again with the rationalizations and justifications. In other words, the excuses. Real life people are dying and you're all "Give him time." Sorry, if he can't stand the heat, he should have stayed out of the kitchen.

And once again with the fantasy melodrama.

Enjoy the circus. Some of us grew out of that $#@! decades ago.

You demand the impossible.
No mortal man could do what you demand.

[TheTexan]

Donald Trump is secretly a minarchist constitutional conservative, and he wants to cut spending - he just can't without being assassinated.

Q told me this himself on 8chan before the site was shut down.

[Swordsmyth]

Donald Trump is secretly a minarchist constitutional conservative, and he wants to cut spending - he just can't without being assassinated.

Q told me this himself on 8chan before the site was shut down.

Trump is what he is, he never claimed to be one of us but he is an improvement over his enemies in the status quo.

[TheTexan]

You demand the impossible.
No mortal man could do what you demand.

Exactly, if he didn't keep increasing spending to all-time highs, the swamp would realize that he's onto them and assassinate him.

[TheTexan]

Trump is what he is, he never claimed to be one of us but he is an improvement over his enemies in the status quo.

For sure, he's a huge improvement. Federal spending is up 20% since Obama took office, but imagine if Hillary had won - it would be at least 25% or even 30%

[CCTelander]

You demand the impossible.
No mortal man could do what you demand.


Abolishing a completely evil and unlawful "kill list" is impossible? Spare me. Just more useless excuses.

[Swordsmyth]

Exactly, if he didn't keep increasing spending to all-time highs, the swamp would realize that he's onto them and assassinate him.


For sure, he's a huge improvement. Federal spending is up 20% since Obama took office, but imagine if Hillary had won - it would be at least 25% or even 30%
There are more important things than money.
And we might end up being forced to default on the debt anyway.
Nor does Trump have very much power over the budget, Congress can and would pass a swamp compromise over his veto.

[TheTexan]

There are more important things than money.

Like the 2nd amendment? Trump has been just awesome on that for sure :up:

[Swordsmyth]

Abolishing a completely evil and unlawful "kill list" is impossible? Spare me. Just more useless excuses.
The deepstate would simply refuse to comply with is order and then impeach him or assassinate him.
You obviously have no conception of how bad things are or of how politics and intrigue work.
Trump is just one man and only a mortal.

[Swordsmyth]

Like the 2nd amendment? Trump has been just awesome on that for sure :up:
He beats Jacinda Ardern. (or any of the possible alternatives)

[TheTexan]

Nor does Trump have very much power over the budget, Congress can and would pass a swamp compromise over his veto.

I think we'll see Trump's true colors in his 2nd term. In this first term he's had to play their swamp games to ensure he gets re-elected, but in his 2nd term he's going to just flat out veto their shitty bills. And probably will champion the 2A with EO's. And will probably disband at least 3 if not 4 whole three letter agencies, all while rolling back thousands of regulations.

It's going to be epic :cool:

[TheTexan]

The deepstate would simply refuse to comply with is order and then impeach him or assassinate him.
You obviously have no conception of how bad things are or of how politics and intrigue work.
Trump is just one man and only a mortal.

How do you know that Trump secretly wants to end the kill list? Does Q still talk to you? He stopped answering my texts

[Swordsmyth]

How do you know that Trump secretly wants to end the kill list? Does Q still talk to you? He stopped answering my texts
I never said he did for certain.
My point is that we don't know and he couldn't at this point if he did want to.

Trump is only the first step in a LONG road to get to where we want and need to go, even if Q pays off and we see a major purge starting soon we will only still be just beginning at the end of Trump's second term.

[TheTexan]

I never said he did for certain.
My point is that we don't know and he couldn't at this point if he did want to.

Indeed. There's really no way to know. Certainly not by his words or by his actions.

I guess the only way to really know is to read the Art of the Deal and apply his lessons to the world he faces currently.

[Swordsmyth]

Indeed. There's really no way to know. Certainly not by his words or by his actions.

I guess the only way to really know is to read the Art of the Deal and apply his lessons to the world he faces currently.
You can only tell by his actions.
But you can't tell by his lack of action at this point, if he is able to get more control then lack of action will become more indicative.

[CCTelander]

The deepstate would simply refuse to comply with is order



Very possibly. But at least the he'd have done the right thing, clearly and unambiguously, something which often you seem to have a strong aversion against demanding of him.




and then impeach him or assassinate him.



More fantasy melodrama.




You obviously have no conception of how bad things are or of how politics and intrigue work.



And you obviously have no idea with whom you're dealing, what I may or may not know nor what I've experienced. Yet you arrogantly proclaim your own superior knowledge and wisdom. That can be a very grave mistake. However, you're young yet. You may grow out of it.




Trump is just one man and only a mortal.


And we end with yet another excuse.

[Swordsmyth]

Very possibly. But at least the he'd have done the right thing, clearly and unambiguously, something which often you seem to have a strong aversion against demanding of him.
You prefer virtue signalling to getting done what can be done.








More fantasy melodrama.
Tell it to JFK and Nixon.








And you obviously have no idea with whom you're dealing, what I may or may not know nor what I've experienced. Yet you arrogantly proclaim your own superior knowledge and wisdom. That can be a very grave mistake. However, you're young yet. You may grow out of it.
You demonstrate your ignorance or misunderstanding every time you post.







And we end with yet another excuse.
If that's what you want to call facts.

[CCTelander]

You prefer virtue signalling to getting done what can be done.








Tell it to JFK and Nixon.








You demonstrate your ignorance or misunderstanding every time you post.







If that's what you want to call facts.

:rolleyes:

[acptulsa]

There are more important things than money.
And we might end up being forced to default on the debt anyway.
Nor does Trump have very much power over the budget, Congress can and would pass a swamp compromise over his veto.

Well, I must admit, the only relevant job experience Trump brings to the position is defaulting on debt. It's one thing he's very good at.

[Origanalist]

Well, I must admit, the only relevant job experience Trump brings to the position is defaulting on debt. It's one thing he's very good at.

And ribbon cutting, don't forget ribbon cutting.

[CCTelander]

Well, I must admit, the only relevant job experience Trump brings to the position is defaulting on debt. It's one thing he's very good at.


Not to mention that the "There are more important things than money" argument is really just an old virtue signalling argument socialists trot out any time money becomes an issue. It's total horseshit when they do it and this instance is no exception.

Money and spending are literally the lifeblood that allows government to continue to grow, expand and become ever more intrusive. Without them that simply can't happen. Therefore these are definitely among the very most important extant issues. Period. Cut off the blood supply and the cancer withers and dies. Anyone implying otherwise is either profoundly ignorant or deliberately deceptive.

But don't dare suggest that Trump ought at least to put up a fight and veto egregious spending bills. You'll be told that the veto would just be overridden anyway, and accused of preferring to virtue signal rather than "get things done." Apparently, demanding that the guy who wields literal life or death power over hundreds of millions of people actually try to do the right thing with that power is unacceptable.

[CCTelander]

And ribbon cutting, don't forget ribbon cutting.


I don't know man. Somebody could sabotage those big scissors leading to tragic consequences. Maybe he should just avoid ribbon cutting for the time being, until he gets the deep state under control.

[acptulsa]

The deepstate would simply... assassinate him.

And?

Hate to tell you, but as a fearless, ballsy Alpha swamp drainer Trump is a total bust. But he could still make a mighty fine martyr.

If the Deep State were ever to get that stupid, that would be a happy day.

[TheCount]

The deepstate would simply refuse to comply with is order and then impeach him or assassinate him.
You obviously have no conception of how bad things are or of how politics and intrigue work.
Trump is just one man and only a mortal.

It's interesting how this philosophy allows you to give Trump credit for things that you like while not faulting him for anything that you don't like.


When the government does something you agree with, why don't you thank the deep state instead of Trump?

[A Son of Liberty]

he'd have done the right thing, clearly and unambiguously,


You prefer virtue signalling to getting done what can be done.

Doing the right thing, clearly and unambiguously, was something that Ron was known for during his time in Congress. How many times was he the single "nay" vote on this or that bill? How many times did he stand up for or against something because it was the right thing to stand up for or against, even when he knew he'd be the ONLY one standing?

Was Ron "virtue signalling"?

You know, it's entirely possible to be so willing to compromise to "get done what can be done" that you end up compromising yourself out of distinction. And then you're nothing more than another swamp creature.

[Swordsmyth]

Doing the right thing, clearly and unambiguously, was something that Ron was known for during his time in Congress. How many times was he the single "nay" vote on this or that bill? How many times did he stand up for or against something because it was the right thing to stand up for or against, even when he knew he'd be the ONLY one standing?

Was Ron "virtue signalling"?

You know, it's entirely possible to be so willing to compromise to "get done what can be done" that you end up compromising yourself out of distinction. And then you're nothing more than another swamp creature.
Ron didn't have the power to do much of anything other than take a stand for perfection, Trump is in a position to get more actual good done.

[Swordsmyth]

It's interesting how this philosophy allows you to give Trump credit for things that you like while not faulting him for anything that you don't like.


When the government does something you agree with, why don't you thank the deep state instead of Trump?
Trump is the new factor, and the deepstate opposes all of the good things he does.

Nice try, but no cigar.

[A Son of Liberty]

Ron didn't have the power to do much of anything other than take a stand for perfection, Trump is in a position to get more actual good done.

Yep, I absolutely knew that was going to be your answer. Your implication is that had Ron achieved the presidency, he would have made compromises...

It's obvious why you turned up here in 2016 and not before.

[Swordsmyth]

Yep, I absolutely knew that was going to be your answer. Your implication is that had Ron achieved the presidency, he would have made compromises...
Or he wouldn't have gotten as much done for liberty as Trump has.


It's obvious why you turned up here in 2016 and not before.
Not at all, I opposed Trump when I came here because I thought he wouldn't get anything good done OR take a stand for perfection.

[A Son of Liberty]

Or he wouldn't have gotten as much done for liberty as Trump has.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0xenqtGEK3ARxiKc/giphy.gif



Not at all, I opposed Trump when I came here because I thought he wouldn't get anything good done OR take a stand for perfection.

https://i.imgur.com/naNEzNm.gif?noredirect

[A Son of Liberty]

What you and Monica Lewinski have in common is that you both know what it's like to choke on a President's dick.

But at least you're getting paid for it.

[TheCount]

Trump is the new factor, and the deepstate opposes all of the good things he does.

Nice try, but no cigar.

If they can stop him from doing good things, why do they not stop him from doing all good things?



This reaches the level of a religious belief.

[Swordsmyth]

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0xenqtGEK3ARxiKc/giphy.gif

It's a fact, he would have had vetoes overridden at every turn and then been impeached on trumped up charges or assassinated.




https://i.imgur.com/naNEzNm.gif?noredirect
I've dug up the old posts and proven it many times.

[Swordsmyth]

If they can stop him from doing good things, why do they not stop him from doing all good things?



This reaches the level of a religious belief.
Your position does reach the level of a religious belief.
Trump does have some power and he has cut deals, the deepstate is not omnipotent.

[A Son of Liberty]

It's a fact, he would have had vetoes overridden at every turn and then been impeached on trumped up charges or assassinated.

http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/JVqeFxl3Qo8/200.gif


I've dug up the old posts and proven it many times.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/5iG4eBc0Gimti/giphy.gif

Get in there, SS!

[Swordsmyth]

What you and Monica Lewinski have in common is that you both know what it's like to choke on a President's dick.

But at least you're getting paid for it.


http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/JVqeFxl3Qo8/200.gif



https://media3.giphy.com/media/5iG4eBc0Gimti/giphy.gif

Get in there, SS!

When you resort to sexual insults it's obvious you have lost.

[A Son of Liberty]

When you resort to sexual insults it's obvious you have lost.

Here at RonPaulForums, you just stated that Ron's 40 year record of standing on principle hasn't done as much as Trump's hap-hazard, clumsy, occasional record of maybe possibly doing something for liberty, so...

Hey, here's an idea... with this impressive amount of time you have, why don't you go start DonaldTrumpLibertyForest.com? No, seriously... why don't you go do that? With the amount of time and energy you have, you'd be a big, big success. So why don't you?

[Swordsmyth]

Here at RonPaulForums, you just stated that Ron's 40 year record of standing on principle hasn't done as much as Trump's hap-hazard, clumsy, occasional record of maybe possibly doing something for liberty, so...

Ron was only a House Rep, it was not possible for him to get very many actual results.

[A Son of Liberty]

Ron was only a House Rep, it was not possible for him to get very many actual results.

And your implication clearly was that had he achieved the presidency he would have capitulated, TrumpSucker.

Again, why don't you go start DonaldTrumpLibertyForest.com? Seriously, TrumpSucker... You have the time and the energy and the ambition... go do it.

[A Son of Liberty]

Or he wouldn't have gotten as much done for liberty as Trump has.


Judge for yourselves, RPF. Judge for yourselves...

[Swordsmyth]

And your implication clearly was that had he achieved the presidency he would have capitulated, TrumpSucker.

Again, why don't you go start DonaldTrumpLibertyForest.com? Seriously, TrumpSucker... You have the time and the energy and the ambition... go do it.
I didn't say what he would do, I said he might have made deals to get good things done or he might have been overridden and then impeached or killed.

[TheCount]

Trump does have some power and he has cut deals, the deepstate is not omnipotent.

Your distinction between what he is able to do and what he is not able to do is entirely arbitrary.



The end result is: "Everything he does that I like, he did, and everything that he does that I don't like, he didn't do"



Well, I guess when you're accustomed to being in a cult already, it probably doesn't seem unusual...

[A Son of Liberty]

I didn't say what he would do, I said he might have made deals to get good things done or he might have been overridden and then impeached or killed.


Or he wouldn't have gotten as much done for liberty as Trump has.

Sure, sure, buddy.

[Swordsmyth]

Judge for yourselves, RPF. Judge for yourselves...
He would have been Kavanaughed, they would have dug up some old patient with no morals and railroaded him on a phony rape story.
They probably would have done it before he ever won the general if he had won the nomination.
That's probably what Romney threatened him with.

[Swordsmyth]

Sure, sure, buddy.
Learn to read.

[A Son of Liberty]

He would have been Kavanaughed, they would have dug up some old patient with no morals and railroaded him on a phony rape story.
They probably would have done it before he ever won the general if he had won the nomination.
That's probably what Romney threatened him with.

Or, ya know, he just wouldn't have gotten as much done for liberty as Trump has, so...

[Swordsmyth]

Or, ya know, he just wouldn't have gotten as much done for liberty as Trump has, so...
It's hard to get things done when you are kept/forced out of office or killed.

[A Son of Liberty]

It's hard to get things done when you are kept/forced out of office or killed.

When are you starting up DonaldTrumpLibertyForest.com?

[A Son of Liberty]

Hello? When's the Grand Opening?

With all your time, energy and obvious zeal for all things Donald, the great liberty president, I'm sure it's imminent... so when is it?

[JoshLowry]

And your implication clearly was that had he achieved the presidency he would have capitulated, TrumpSucker.

Again, why don't you go start DonaldTrumpLibertyForest.com? Seriously, TrumpSucker... You have the time and the energy and the ambition... go do it.

Stop using insults please.

[A Son of Liberty]

Stop using insults please.

Did I say something inaccurate?

Clean up your website, Josh. Pay attention.

[A Son of Liberty]

When are you starting up DonaldTrumpLibertyForest.com?

When's the big day, bubba?

[JoshLowry]

Judge for yourselves, RPF. Judge for yourselves...

That's just his opinion.

Ron Paul paved the road for all of us who have promoted liberty and peace.

Trump has promoted Rand to tens of millions of people. That's a battle won for the ideas of small government, liberty, and peace.

[A Son of Liberty]

That's just his opinion.

Ron Paul paved the road for all of us who have promoted liberty and peace.

Trump has promoted Rand to tens of millions of people. That's a battle won for the ideas of small government, liberty, and peace.

Yeah, that's just "his" opinion. At 54,000 posts in 3.5 years, I'm sure that's "just his opinion".

AF has an opinion, Josh. I have an opinion.

SS has an agenda... SS has a job.

But it's all good. You've made your position on this clear.

Have it.

[JoshLowry]

I have an opinion.

Have it.

[A Son of Liberty]

Have it.

Did you learn that selective quoting from SS?

If you think we (and by "we" I mean those of us left here who still legitimately support Ron and the liberty movement) can keep up with a paid troll who has 54,000 posts in 3.5 years, maybe you should spend a little more time around here. You can take my place.

Take care.

[Swordsmyth]

Yeah, that's just "his" opinion. At 54,000 posts in 3.5 years, I'm sure that's "just his opinion".

AF has an opinion, Josh. I have an opinion.

SS has an agenda... SS has a job.

But it's all good. You've made your position on this clear.

Have it.
My only agenda is liberty and I don't make any money posting here.

[Slave Mentality]

My only agenda is liberty and I don't make any money posting here.

LO Motherfuckin L

[acptulsa]

LO Motherfuckin L

What? You don't have a sixty hour a week hobby?

[TheCount]

My only agenda is liberty and I don't make any money posting here.

Hilarious.

[acptulsa]

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

I was sold a Trump who allegedly disagreed with Obama about the value of that amendment. Wonder what happened to that guy?

[TheCount]

I was sold a Trump who allegedly disagreed with Obama about the value of that amendment. Wonder what happened to that guy?

He never existed.

[CCTelander]

So, Trump is in a position to do more actual good than Ron did (the most assinine statement I've read in acwhile, but let's run with it), but it's somehow beyond his power and ability to abolish this wholly unlawful, unconstitutional and horrendously evil "kill list"?

We're told the deep state will simply ignore his orders if he does and carry on as before, yet in another thread we're assured that Trump will make his purported desire to withdraw troops from Afghanistan stick in spite of the deep state.

There's something wrong with this picture.

[Anti Federalist]

Zippy isn't a "paid troll".

Swordsmyth isn't a "paid troll".

[acptulsa]

Zippy isn't a "paid troll".

Swordsmyth isn't a "paid troll".

So start a thread and prove it.

[Swordsmyth]

So, Trump is in a position to do more actual good than Ron did (the most assinine statement I've read in acwhile, but let's run with it), but it's somehow beyond his power and ability to abolish this wholly unlawful, unconstitutional and horrendously evil "kill list"?

We're told the deep state will simply ignore his orders if he does and carry on as before, yet in another thread we're assured that Trump will make his purported desire to withdraw troops from Afghanistan stick in spite of the deep state.

There's something wrong with this picture.
Trump will win in his fight with the deestate and gain more ability to enact his priorities, he has made it clear that bringing the troops home is a priority because he is doing his best to do so now before the defeat of the deepstate is complete.
I hope he will make ending the kill list a priority too, we will see.

[Swordsmyth]

So start a thread and prove it.

Maybe someone should do the same for you?

[acptulsa]

So, Trump is in a position to do more actual good than Ron did (the most assinine statement I've read in acwhile, but let's run with it), but it's somehow beyond his power and ability to abolish this wholly unlawful, unconstitutional and horrendously evil "kill list"?

We're told the deep state will simply ignore his orders if he does and carry on as before, yet in another thread we're assured that Trump will make his purported desire to withdraw troops from Afghanistan stick in spite of the deep state.

There's something wrong with this picture.

Like, for instance, the military is droning citizens, and the Commander in Chief allegedly can't stop it?

[Swordsmyth]

Like, for instance, the military is droning citizens, and the Commander in Chief allegedly can't stop it?
Have you heard of JFK?
Do you really think Nixon wasn't driven from office because he was ending the Vietnam war?

[acptulsa]

Have you heard of JFK?
Do you really think Nixon wasn't driven from office because he was ending the Vietnam war?

Some tough guy who could accomplish more than Rand Paul because he's so alpha and everyone else is so beta.

But, of course, the Republican was never born who can remember the mistakes he made in one primary long enough to avoid making them in the next.

At the end of the day, Arlington is full of men who would laugh at that excuse, if only they could.

[Swordsmyth]

Some tough guy who could accomplish more than Rand Paul because he's so alpha and everyone else is so beta.

But, of course, the Republican was never born who can remember the mistakes he made in one primary long enough to avoid making them in the next.

At the end of the day, Arlington is full of men who would laugh at that excuse, if only they could.

None of what you said refutes what I said.
You can't get anything done if you are dead or out of office/in prison.
You get even less done if you never get into office.