Are we hurting Dr. Paul's chances to win? Here's one side of the debate

[phree]

Please support an open dialog about this important subject by resisting the urge to spam this thread into the Hot Topics section. There is a growing divide in our ranks and sweeping it under the rug won't help. Please don't attack anyone for their opinion about this issue.

You may not like what Dave Nalle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Nalle) has to say, but please try to read his article objectively, a lot is at stake. Nalle is someone who wants Dr. Paul to win, and who knows something about the political process.

Why Ron Paul's Followers Will Cost Him the Election

"If they want to save the campaign, they need to get over their egotistical attachment to the idea that Paul's unimpeachable principles and honesty trump all other considerations, and face up to the fact that to win a party nomination you have to make some effort to play the game the way the party leaders–from the lowliest precinct workers to the national leadership–expect it to be played.

In party politics it doesn't matter how right you are, it only matters how many people are convinced that you have a winning strategy. Paul's supporters don't understand this or don't want to understand it. They're thinking in terms of running an outsider, grassroots campaign. But Paul deliberately didn't run as an independent. He showed the good sense to run as a Republican, knowing all of the advantages of access and opportunity he would have in the primaries and the base of support he'd be able to count on in the general election if he won the nomination."

MORE... (http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/12/14/033154.php)

[rollingpig]

dont fall for it. they want us to play their game. We are done following their rules!!

[Ron Paul Fan]

Absolutely not. Ron Paul is a Republican. He's won 10 times as a Republican. We are helping Ron Paul's chances to win. I'd say we've done a pretty good job so far. Look how far we've come and it will come to light just how far on Sunday. But there's still a long way to go and we must keep growing and spreading the message if we are to win the Republican nomination for Ron Paul! This guy thinks he knows what he's talking about, but he really doesn't. We should never sacrifice our principles for politics. Not now. Not ever! Go Ron Paul!

[nbhadja]

Stop rewarding garbage blogs written by Ron Paul haters like this with traffic. No need to post that crap on here.

Yes RP supporters are so garbage that they only raised him 4.3 million in one day, launched a 350,000 a month blimp into the sky, helped his campaign reach a exponential growth rate, put countless billboards, yard signs, etc up, and will raise 10+ million in one day. Talk about costing him the election!

[Adam Smith]

Dave Nalle is not the first to say what he's said. You are not the first to bring up this subject. The threads are NUMEROUS. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=47174)
What we have here is a difference of opinion.

I'm a lifelong Republican conservative and former Neo-con and I am tired of us all worrying about offending the GOP with our 'rable-rousing' ways. THE CLOSED MINDED ONES DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO! You could kiss their derrieres and promises them roses in springtime and goodness and light and they will STILL HATE RON PAUL.

Dave Nalle saying that we need to 'watch out' is his OPINION. And why does he get to decide how everyone 'ought' to behave?

I'll say it again:

This is a bottom-up operation, folks. Some people will do things differently from how you might choose to do it, but everybody's way is JUST FINE. Some people are boisterous and feisty, like fans at a college football game, shouting out taunts and cheers to psyche out the opponent's team. Others are diplomatic and friendly, reaching out to achieve mutual understanding. No one way is better or more right. This argument is a waste of time and it dampens some people's hopes and spirit.

Personally I think we deserve to flip the bird to the Republican Establishment. Their lack of principles have resulted in the fractioning of a Party I used to proudly call my own.

[brandon13830]

If Dr. Paul doesn't win, I can guarantee you that Dr. Paul's supporters will not be the reason he doesn't win.

[j0ew00ds]

I'm not going to bash you like previous posts. My only comment is that perhaps RP's decision to run as a Republican has already panned out. He's been in all the pre-caucus debates, is slowly climbing on the polls, and, let's be honest here, attracted many of us because he's on the Republican ticket.
Perhaps he's beyond these concerns already. I'm not sure though.

[tsetsefly]

I do think that if we become CONFRONTATIONAL in GOP events with 80 year old people we only tune them out to Dr. Paul, like I said we need to be or a...ct like disenfranchised republicans not anarchist trying to take over the republican party. We need to be more covert...

[Revolution9]

Soo.. We are to listen to a fellow inculcated in the core of the British Zionist diplomatic establishment who just happens to be in charge of the Repub Liberty caucus. What a neat way to grab control of the reins of power of that sector of the party to subvert them. They thought they had the whole spectrum under thumb.. Not so.. The wild card of natural law and organic nature will trump their machine.

Regards
Randy

[RoyalShock]

Neither RP or his supporters (us) should lower ourselves to "playing the game". However, we can learn to be more civil when encountering discourse. We are under the microscope and must recognize that fact. Getting upset over slights will do the RP campaign harm. As difficult as it is to keep composed, the angry, biting, sacrcastic responses to our detractors is only going to invite more of this type of publicity. And whether it's a lowly blog or MSM piece, it will make it more difficult to change the hearts and minds of voters.

Discuss the issues. Speak with facts. Maintain composure and civility. People will come around.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Please support an open dialog about this important subject by resisting the urge to spam this thread into the Hot Topics section. There is a growing divide in our ranks and sweeping it under the rug won't help. Please don't attack anyone for their opinion about this issue.

You may not like what Dave Nalle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Nalle) has to say, but please try to read his article objectively, a lot is at stake. Nalle is someone who wants Dr. Paul to win, and who knows something about the political process.

Why Ron Paul's Followers Will Cost Him the Election

"If they want to save the campaign, they need to get over their egotistical attachment to the idea that Paul's unimpeachable principles and honesty trump all other considerations, and face up to the fact that to win a party nomination you have to make some effort to play the game the way the party leaders–from the lowliest precinct workers to the national leadership–expect it to be played.

In party politics it doesn't matter how right you are, it only matters how many people are convinced that you have a winning strategy. Paul's supporters don't understand this or don't want to understand it. They're thinking in terms of running an outsider, grassroots campaign. But Paul deliberately didn't run as an independent. He showed the good sense to run as a Republican, knowing all of the advantages of access and opportunity he would have in the primaries and the base of support he'd be able to count on in the general election if he won the nomination."

MORE... (http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/12/14/033154.php)


I think you're hurting the campaign.

[DeanToPaulIn4Years]

they've been wrong all along, so i'm not really interested in what establishment types believe.

there is NOTHING wrong with a grassroots campaign or a candidate who takes positions that are different from party orthodoxy. the only people who would complain about it are those who feel their power and relevance slipping away from them.

so i'm not even sure what his complaint is anyways, but honestly, i couldn't care less. this campaign will be a model for future campaigns for a very long time.

[mosquitobite]

Dave Nalle is not the first to say what he's said. You are not the first to bring up this subject. The threads are NUMEROUS. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=47174)
What we have here is a difference of opinion.

I'm a lifelong Republican conservative and former Neo-con and I am tired of us all worrying about offending the GOP with our 'rable-rousing' ways. THE CLOSED MINDED ONES DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO! You could kiss their derrieres and promises them roses in springtime and goodness and light and they will STILL HATE RON PAUL.

Dave Nalle saying that we need to 'watch out' is his OPINION. And why does he get to decide how everyone 'ought' to behave?

I'll say it again:

This is a bottom-up operation, folks. Some people will do things differently from how you might choose to do it, but everybody's way is JUST FINE. Some people are boisterous and feisty, like fans at a college football game, shouting out taunts and cheers to psyche out the opponent's team. Others are diplomatic and friendly, reaching out to achieve mutual understanding. No one way is better or more right. This argument is a waste of time and it dampens some people's hopes and spirit.

Personally I think we deserve to flip the bird to the Republican Establishment. Their lack of principles have resulted in the fractioning of a Party I used to proudly call my own.

Hear hear!!! :D Well said!

I've often compared the 2 party fanatics with the analogy of sports fans. That's all they are anymore!

[Menthol Patch]

We need to keep on doing what we have been doing! We don't need to change ANYTHING!

For goodness sakes, why do we need to change anything when we are successful enough to raise TEN MILLION DOLLARS tomorrow?

[JMann]

Yes master. We will change the leadership from the local precinct level to the national office if need be.

[phree]

I think you're hurting the campaign.

I hope not. I don't think that questioning our campaign tactics can do any harm, and maybe it will help.

When I'm canvasing neighborhoods in NH for 3 weeks I want the doors to open. I don't want to have to compensate for bad impressions made by a handful of us.

[hawkeyenick]

Yes master. We will change the leadership from the local precinct level to the national office if need be.

This should be our plan of attack, and it's MUCH more effective even than my Iowa Caucus vote because of low morale in the GOP

We can go uncontested in thousands of PC chairs just for stepping up

[Ridiculous]

I aggree with the point that the author makes that you can't get the Republican nomination while giving the GOP the finger at the same time.

I think some of the younger college age supporters have that kind of attitude.

We aren't going to be able to take over the GOP outright, we have some convincing to do....

[Cardinal Red]

Dave Nalle is not the first to say what he's said. You are not the first to bring up this subject. The threads are NUMEROUS. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=47174)
What we have here is a difference of opinion.

I'm a lifelong Republican conservative and former Neo-con and I am tired of us all worrying about offending the GOP with our 'rable-rousing' ways. THE CLOSED MINDED ONES DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO! You could kiss their derrieres and promises them roses in springtime and goodness and light and they will STILL HATE RON PAUL.

Dave Nalle saying that we need to 'watch out' is his OPINION. And why does he get to decide how everyone 'ought' to behave?

I'll say it again:

This is a bottom-up operation, folks. Some people will do things differently from how you might choose to do it, but everybody's way is JUST FINE. Some people are boisterous and feisty, like fans at a college football game, shouting out taunts and cheers to psyche out the opponent's team. Others are diplomatic and friendly, reaching out to achieve mutual understanding. No one way is better or more right. This argument is a waste of time and it dampens some people's hopes and spirit.

Personally I think we deserve to flip the bird to the Republican Establishment. Their lack of principles have resulted in the fractioning of a Party I used to proudly call my own.

Actually, and respectfully Adam, no we don't. And as politely as possible, I am going to strongly suggest to others on this board to behave politely if I know that their rude behavior is going to cost my candidate votes. I have worked on several winning poltiical campaigns, including for President of the U.S.-- I don't always know what works, but I do know what never works-- And that is "flipping the bird" to the voters you are trying to win over.

I understand your frustration with the Republican Establishment. Many people on this board share it. But simply put, never, in the history of politics, has anyone gone in and yelled at a bunch of people about what immoral idiots they are and convinced those people to turn around and vote for him or her. People who advocate those tactics do not win elections-- period.

The often profane or obnoxious tactics of a minority of supporters are killing us right now. We are not going to convert hard-core neocons-- that is true. They will use dirty tactics: also true-- welcome to politics. But we can reach a lot of the Republican base by presenting our views politely and with dignity and class. We don't reach anyone by yelling and screaming.

You don't see RP going around screaming at his opponents-- his polite manner draws in a lot of supporters, even those who disagree with him on some issues. We need to follow that example in every action we take.

[Adam Smith]

Actually, and respectfully Adam, no we don't. And as politely as possible, I am going to strongly suggest to others on this board to behave politely if I know that their dude behavior is going to cost my candidate votes. I have worked on several winning poltiical campaigns, including for President of the U.S.-- I don't always know what works, but I do know what never works-- And that is "flipping the bird" to the voters you are trying to win over.

I understand your frustration with the Republican Establishment. Many people on this board share it. But simply put, never, in the history of politics, has anyone gone in and yelled at a bunch of people about what immoral idiots they are and convinced those people to turn around and vote for him or her. People who advocate those tactics do not win elections-- period.

The often profane or obnoxious tactics of a minority of supporters are killing us right now. We are not going to convert hard-core neocons-- that is true. They will use dirty tactics: also true-- welcome to politics. But we can reach a lot of the Republican base by presenting our views politely and with dignity and class. We don't reach anyone by yelling and screaming.

You don't see RP going around screaming at his opponents-- his polite manner draws in a lot of supporters, even those who disagree with him on some issues. We need to follow that example in every action we take.

Just to be clear here, I was speaking metaphorically.

PEOPLE OF THESE RON PAUL FORUMS, PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT LITERALLY FLIP 'THE BIRD' TO ANY REPUBLICAN ESTABLISHMENT MEMBERS.

I would feel SOOO guilty if I single-handedly became responsible for thousands of you going out and flipping off 'the haters' as a universal sign of Ron Paul unity.:rolleyes:

[JMann]

I aggree with the point that the author makes that you can't get the Republican nomination while giving the GOP the finger at the same time.

I think some of the younger college age supporters have that kind of attitude.

We aren't going to be able to take over the GOP outright, we have some convincing to do....

The thing is that the party is a vacuum now. With a little effort the entire Republican establishment can be replaced with Paul people and then there is no need to give ourselves the finger but I do get your point.

I have often wondered why normal rational people that are libertarian thinkers haven't gone in and taken over the Libertarian Party and replaced the extremist that run that farce of a party. Buchanan's people took over the Reform party and he didn't have near the support of Dr. Paul.

[Adam Smith]

Actually, now that I think about it , that might be a great idea...

Just think of it, Ron Paul Supporters around the world coming together as one united force to FLIP THE BIRD to all of America not only to show our extreme displeasure at the state of American politics, but as a sign of love and affection for all things RON PAUL!

STAND UP! BE PROUD! SHOW YOUR MIDDLE FINGER, AMERICA!!!

[mconder]

In party politics it doesn't matter how right you are, it only matters how many people are convinced that you have a winning strategy.

This isn't party politics. This is a revolution. RP didn't get the support he has playing the part of a scumbag politician.

[Revolution9]

<snip nannyesque autoblither output>

Hi Cardinal Red.., Say hi to the Grope in Fatagain City for me seeing as you have all these unlustrious contacts and are a real winner.Tell the boyz at HQ they don't call the square dance tune no more and it ain't the college kids gonna kick their butts all over the dance floor, but their fathers and grandfathers.

Take yer political machine language and install it where the sun don't shne and has never risen. Yer a condescending bitch. We got way farther than we would have with clowns like you helming the decks. If you wonder why you get a blast its because as a grown adult I am about sick and fed up of your kind promulgating this condescendingly contrived tripe every time thy try to shove their personal agenda down our throats.

:cool:
Randy

[Cardinal Red]

We are running in the REPUBLICAN PARTY primary. If RP changes his mind and runs as an independent, we may be able to become more aggressive-- but for now you have got to grit your teeth and smile. There is no other way to win.

[Cardinal Red]

Hi Cardinal Red.., Say hi to the Grope in Fatagain City for me seeing as you have all these unlustrious contacts and are a real winner.Tell the boyz at HQ they don't call the square dance tune no more and it ain't the college kids gonna kick their butts all over the dance floor, but their fathers and grandfathers.

Take yer political machine language and install it where the sun don't shne and has never risen. Yer a condescending bitch. We got way farther than we would have with clowns like you helming the decks. If you wonder why you get a blast its because as a grown adult I am about sick and fed up of your kind promulgating this condescendingly contrived tripe every time thy try to shove their personal agenda down our throats.

:cool:
Randy

Actually Randy, I gave to RP the morning he opened up his exploratory committee--- so I don't think that you have been with the campaign longer than I have :-) And I am very involved in helping to "helm the decks" for the Tea Party in Boston, even as we speak-- what are you doing to win over media and voters?-- because yelling at me, certainly won't do that.

But for the sake of argument, why don't you tell me about all of the national campaigns you have been involved with in which yelling, screaming, and behaving rudely to potential voters in a party primary was a key part of your winning strategy. If you can name the campaigns, by all means, do so. And then I will bow to your great experience and wisdom-- and you may consider all of my future statements that merely we follow Ron Paul's fine example of civility as not directed to you:)

[Ridiculous]

In party politics it doesn't matter how right you are, it only matters how many people are convinced that you have a winning strategy.

This isn't party politics. This is a revolution. RP didn't get the support he has playing the part of a scumbag politician.

Well it does matter how many people are convinced that Ron Paul has the winning strategy....

But I don't think he needs to be a scumbag to do it.

[Todd]

We are doing this....We don't tell people at the local Republican meetings who we support and we don't bring attention to ourselves. There is validity to this method.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - Barry goldwater

[Proemio]

Soo.. We are to listen to a fellow inculcated in the core of the British Zionist diplomatic establishment who just happens to be in charge of the Repub Liberty caucus. What a neat way to grab control of the reins of power of that sector of the party to subvert them. They thought they had the whole spectrum under thumb.. Not so.. The wild card of natural law and organic nature will trump their machine.

Regards
Randy

Nuff said...

[Mandrik]

If it ain't broke...

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Highstreet]

Dave Nalle is not the first to say what he's said. You are not the first to bring up this subject. The threads are NUMEROUS. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=47174)
What we have here is a difference of opinion.

I'm a lifelong Republican conservative and former Neo-con and I am tired of us all worrying about offending the GOP with our 'rable-rousing' ways. THE CLOSED MINDED ONES DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO! You could kiss their derrieres and promises them roses in springtime and goodness and light and they will STILL HATE RON PAUL.

Dave Nalle saying that we need to 'watch out' is his OPINION. And why does he get to decide how everyone 'ought' to behave?

I'll say it again:

This is a bottom-up operation, folks. Some people will do things differently from how you might choose to do it, but everybody's way is JUST FINE. Some people are boisterous and feisty, like fans at a college football game, shouting out taunts and cheers to psyche out the opponent's team. Others are diplomatic and friendly, reaching out to achieve mutual understanding. No one way is better or more right. This argument is a waste of time and it dampens some people's hopes and spirit.

Personally I think we deserve to flip the bird to the Republican Establishment. Their lack of principles have resulted in the fractioning of a Party I used to proudly call my own.

Bump!!

Excellent post.

[Proemio]

We are running in the REPUBLICAN PARTY primary. If RP changes his mind and runs as an independent, we may be able to become more aggressive-- but for now you have got to grit your teeth and smile. There is no other way to win.

You sound like having lots of experience with the rigged game - nice, but...
It should slowly dawn on even the most educated, that playing IT, is the surest way to lose - it's the establishment's wet dream.

Hence the recurring appeals to shut up, play nice and by the 'rules'.
Ever wonder who put those rules in place and why?

Randy is perfectly right - he usually is. This is working beautifully as is, and because it is as is.

[Birdlady]

Actually Randy, I gave to RP the morning he opened up his exploratory committee--- so I don't think that you have been with the campaign longer than I have :-) And I am very involved in helping to "helm the decks" for the Tea Party in Boston, even as we speak-- what are you doing to win over media and voters?-- because yelling at me, certainly won't do that.

But for the sake of argument, why don't you tell me about all of the national campaigns you have been involved with in which yelling, screaming, and behaving rudely to potential voters in a party primary was a key part of your winning strategy. If you can name the campaigns, by all means, do so. And then I will bow to your great experience and wisdom-- and you may consider all of my future statements that merely we follow Ron Paul's fine example of civility as not directed to you:)

What is up with people when met with criticism, try to "out Ron Paul" each other. That is stupid. I don't care if you emailed Ron Paul 50 times over the past 3 years for him to run, donated to his exploratory committee or if you just found him out yesterday. We are in this together.

Just stop with the stupid, "I did more than you" stuff.
Old, young, male or female. Experienced in politics or no experience in politics. It doesn't matter!

[hellah10]

dont fall for it. they want us to play their game. We are done following their rules!!

+1

[Deborah K]

Tsetse Fly, thank you so much for the links - - they're awesome!

[Ron Paul Fan]

What is up with people when met with criticism, try to "out Ron Paul" each other. That is stupid. I don't care if you emailed Ron Paul 50 times over the past 3 years for him to run, donated to his exploratory committee or if you just found him out yesterday. We are in this together.

Just stop with the stupid, "I did more than you" stuff.
Old, young, male or female. Experienced in politics or no experience in politics. It doesn't matter!

Exactly! We're all Ron Paul supporters and we're all in this together to achieve one goal! This is an AMERICAN cause. A cause of FREEDOM! It's up to us to spread this message around the world, and I'd say we've done a damn good job so far so why stop what we're doing now? Ron Paul says keep up the good work, Carol Paul says keep up the good work, the media was shocked at what we did November 5th and they'll be stunned again December 16th! We got the blimp going, we've got tv ads running in Iowa and in many newspapers, we're canvassing the streets, poll numbers are rising! There's a REVOLUTION going on and I'm just lucky to be a part of it!

[lucius]

...There's a REVOLUTION going on and I'm just lucky to be a part of it!

Damn Straight! Auspicious births, this type of lightning doesn't strike every generation!

[Cardinal Red]

You sound like having lots of experience with the rigged game - nice, but...
It should slowly dawn on even the most educated, that playing IT, is the surest way to lose - it's the establishment's wet dream.

Hence the recurring appeals to shut up, play nice and by the 'rules'.
Ever wonder who put those rules in place and why?

Randy is perfectly right - he usually is. This is working beautifully as is, and because it is as is.

This is a fair point-- and also agreed about Not trying to out-ron Paul each other-- It was only my frustration at being engaged by a childish flame that suggested I was a Johnny-come-lately to this campaign. But you are right-- we are all in this together.

But lets differentiate a few things-- The enthusiasm, even when it is strange enthusiasm, is great-- I'm not saying stop that or be boring or buttoned down. Our enthusiasm is out biggest asset. I'm certainly not suggesting that we "play their game"-- because you are right-- we can't win that way.

What I'm saying is Don't be obnoxious-- don't yell at other candidates or their supporters or columnists who write things we don't like. Engage with them, debate with them, by all means, but be civil-- Why is such a request that is so obvious to 99% of the world, and something that is practiced every day by Dr. Paul himself, controverisal here?

Why does Ron Paul easily win his very Republican district (60% last election) yet he has catastrophically high negative views among Republican Primary voters in this election (as high as 61% in one recent poll I saw-- and no, the polls are not rigged--sorry).

it's not Ron Paul's fault-- he is saying the same things-- it's that in his district, voters are not deluged with people engaging in rude, antisocial behavior-- columnists are not being flamed when they disagree with RP, etc.) Listen to what non-RP voters are saying and writing, over and over again: It is some of Dr. Paul's supporters, not Dr. Paul himself, who are causing his negative ratings to spike. All the Tea Parties in the world make no difference if we can't win over undecided voters to our camp.

So lets go out, be positive and enthusiastic about our guy, be civil to our opponents, and get our message out there.

[Adamsa]

Some things do more harm then good (like 9/11 "truthers" spouting stuff), but Ron wouldn't be where he is now without the strength of his grassroots.

[phree]

I get nervous when people start celebrating before reaching the finish line.

This mind set reminds me of the standard movie scene where a man, lost in the desert, finds a canteen with a little water in it. Being extremely thirsty the man slams the canteen to his face and starts drinking with abandon. Of course the audience wonders why the man is letting half of the water dribble down his face...

Speaking of political credentials, I've been hating government since I barely missed the draft for Viet Nam. Please pardon me if I worry about the little bit of water that's running down our collective cheeks.

[noztnac]

Ron Paul doesn't need the Republican Party.
The Republican party needs Ron Paul!

[Goldwater Conservative]

There's no way such a sprawling grassroots can ever be made tame enough for the GOP establishment to be comfortable, so there's no sense in wasting our energy. I wonder if they'd make the same complaint about Julie Annie or Huckleberry if they actually had enough of a grassroots to notice one way or the other.

Besides, what's hurting Paul's chances to win are things like blatant media bias. Nobody should be telling the American people to behave a certain way when the most immature and irresponsible people are those telling us that.

[atilla]

if ron pauls supporters, and ron paul himself, had played the game, he would have been jim gilmore. out of the race 5 months ago.

[Paulitician]

There are, of course, always those morons who ruin it for the rest of us. Who give us and Ron Paul a bad name because they are unwilling to leave their personal agendas to the side (i.e. pushy conspiracy theorists) and/or because they don't know how to behave around other people. Sometimes I think these morons must has some sort of personality disorder, like being anti-social or something, because they show absolutely no signs of decorum. The amount of enthusiasm is great and necessary, but I wish the "nuttiness," which people outside the campaign justifiably see, would stop.

[phree]

Please refrain from inflammatory language. Otherwise we'll be (not) having this discussion in Hot Topics...

[Cleaner44]

dont fall for it. they want us to play their game. We are done following their rules!!

I agree!

[phree]

dont fall for it. they want us to play their game. We are done following their rules!!

Yes. They want us to play their game. Their game is to be rude and aggressive and arrogant. By all means let's not play their game.

[Revolution9]

Actually Randy, I gave to RP the morning he opened up his exploratory committee--- so I don't think that you have been with the campaign longer than I have :-) And I am very involved in helping to "helm the decks" for the Tea Party in Boston, even as we speak-- what are you doing to win over media and voters?-- because yelling at me, certainly won't do that.

But for the sake of argument, why don't you tell me about all of the national campaigns you have been involved with in which yelling, screaming, and behaving rudely to potential voters in a party primary was a key part of your winning strategy. If you can name the campaigns, by all means, do so. And then I will bow to your great experience and wisdom-- and you may consider all of my future statements that merely we follow Ron Paul's fine example of civility as not directed to you:)

OK typical political operative gambit. Blah blah I have done blah blah and blah blah and that gives me the right to tell you blah blah. The insinuation your opponent has done squat is always the next play in these gambits. Failed twice on your part. Have a monolithic voting block and 90% + name recognition in my local area.. I AM the Ron Paul guy here. I did not try to be that I just am.

Now..for all you jabberwonkeys who like to use the What Would Ron Paul do proclamation to back up what is essentially an individual power grab by them through issuance of orders..to be followed as though Ron Paul himself issued and blessed them with sainthood. Let me straighten you ego tripping fools out once and for all. Ron Paul has never ever never fucking ever asked me to do anything other than have fun and be myself. So now you clowns gotta waltz through and play the good ole boy political get along game that turned America off to begin with and pretend Ron Paul has different plans for me and my efforts than what he has said.

Eff off pal.. Yer a condescending bitch. And a tool of those who got us in this mess. After all, you have worked for a winning POTUS team according to you.. Nuff sed.

Randy

[Revolution9]

This is a fair point-- and also agreed about Not trying to out-ron Paul each other-- It was only my frustration at being engaged by a childish flame t.

That "childish flame" was a countergambit that exposed your gambit and did precisely what it was meant to do. I am a much better operative than you. You fell for my schtick and are now having the square dance called for you instead of the way you wished. Now..waltz around the forum another time proclaiming your strategic superiority at playing a rigged game.. I don't play rigged games. I play riggers of games. This is not a political party but a Revolution..worldwide baby.

Randy.

[phree]

Please don't respond to attempts to derail this discussion.

[Revolution9]

Please pardon me if I worry about the little bit of water that's running down our collective cheeks.

Wipe yer own butt.

Randy

[phree]

Seriously Rev9, would you please be a little more respectful? We're on the same side dood.

[Revolution9]

Seriously Rev9, would you please be a little more respectful? We're on the same side dood.

Then act like it and stop bumrushing the good ole boy networking paradigm though here. If these good ol' boys are gonna lose power they need to adjust their steering.. Not me. And the other guy who chmed in. When he delivers an apology for his condescension to the general grassroots i may back off. But after being on the boards as long as I have and seeing this tripe over and over and over, it gets a harder sledgehammer hit every time. Paulitician is as well being a class A jerk and without provocation or proof downcalling and naysaying those who support RP, as he claims to do, and ascribing all kinds of nasty and rude behaviours to them. Frankly, from my catbird seat.. THAT is nasty and rude.

Randy

[Revolution9]

Yes. They want us to play their game. Their game is to be rude and aggressive and arrogant. By all means let's not play their game.

Wrong. Their game is to control the game so they can continue to make up the rules to their benefit as they go along.

HTH
Randy

[Myerz]

I agree. Like Neo in the Matrix, he had to change it from the inside-out. Let's get him in the big house first. Ron will defend us to the end, but if he doesn't make it past the primaries this will all be for not. Again, the Matrix is a good example of an aggressive, oppressive, and deadly set of circumstances like the one we face today. Neo sacrificed everything, like Ron Paul. He needs to work it from the inside-out.....we can only push for so long.......you can lead a horse to water....you can't make him drink.

[Myerz]

Don't get me wrong.....The revolution needs to continue.....name recongnition and feet on the ground.....be nice!

[JacobLyles]

All we need to do is do the best we can without compromising our principles. We're doing better every week. What else could you ask for?

[idiom]

To win the states we have to understand the party rules if we want to transcend them. We have to be better at the game than them.

Look at Wyoming, the caucuses are rigged from the outset, it takes a lot of co-ordination to over turn it. We don't want to fight the party, we want to become the party. RP is pulling in large amounts of new members which is rapidly altering the makeup of the party. Soon the old gaurd will do what we are just starting to see, they will tow our line because they tow the winning line no matter what.

[Myerz]

I also agree, be the best we can................with grace and compassion. Ron wants to save this land and I am sure that's what we all want also. Let's act that way.

[phree]

Rev9, I understand why you felt the need to defend yourself. The problem is that is just keeps escalating and there's no profit in it for anyone. I have to believe that we can discuss a sensitive topic without falling into the flamewar trap.

Please everyone, avoid the personal insults.

[Revolution9]

Rev9, I understand why you felt the need to defend yourself.

I need no defending. I am defense. I am defending the grassroots enthusiasm against miasma marketeers, fearmongers and shills in supporters clothing. I have never seen any of the so called aggressive or egregious behavior from any RP supporter. Yet I hear about hearsay accusations from clowns on this board daily with nothing to back it up except their false assumptions. Stick around.. You will get sick and fed up of it too and notice a pattern you will want to break up with a good slam dunk or two.

Regards
Randy

[phree]

You know Randy, it's a little hard to take being called a shill when I've been devoting so much of my time and energy to this campaign. I know I'm far from unique, but shit man, lighten up okay? Just because I don't agree with your viewpoint doesn't make me wrong. What about the possibility that you're wrong? It's kind of like you're rude and aggressive or something.

I'll be in NH from 12/24 through 1/9. If you're going to be there please send me a pm. I want to show you how I campaign. And give you a hug.

[Corydoras]

I am defending the grassroots enthusiasm against miasma marketeers, fearmongers and shills in supporters clothing.

If I am merely in supporters' clothing, then as far as you are concerned, it doesn't matter whether I vote for Ron Paul or do anything else in his support.

That is wrong.

[tomaO2]

Liv certainly seemed to get this type of viciousness yesterday.

We all know she wants Ron Paul in the Oval Office but just by her saying that if he didn't win she might vote for Obama caused huge amounts of negative posts. Everyone got hyper fanatical and stated if Ron Paul didn't win we go to real revolution and we will never vote for anyone else. I have the strong impression that they would just hound anyone that disagreed in the same mannter that they fill comment sections for online articles and such. Very bad form.

She did us a great favor. Getting the nod from the Obama Girl was a great coup but some people just could not get past the fact that she cold even THINK of voting for anyone other then Ron. How would a person who was contemplating supporting Ron feel if he saw how members attacked another member in VERY good standing over what should be a non issue.

I even got labled a troll for bringing up the issue in another thread and it was moved to a different section. I don't get that. If people are so hypersensitive to the thought that we might vote for anyone else if RP doesn't make it then, yes, that article has merit.

With that said, without the support he would not have gotten this far. It's a catch 22. We'll just have to see.

[Corydoras]

a pattern you will want to break up with a good slam dunk or two.

There are a lot of people who would take this as a threat of physical violence.

[Corydoras]

Everyone got hyper fanatical and stated if Ron Paul didn't win we go to real revolution and we will never vote for anyone else and those that do will be hounded by the intolerant members.

The question is how far they are willing to go in this. I have never observed people of this sort reassuring their targets that they will not harass them.

[voiceactivated]

Ron Paul would never be rude and uncivil. His supporters should follow his example. How do you react when someone is disruptive and shouts in your face? Are you pursuaded or annoyed? It's the same principle he uses for Iraq. You lead by example, not with force.

[Billy Budd]

I don't know where to start..hmmmm

1) I try to catch just about every RP news tidbit that comes down the pike. Most of the spin about RP's over enthustiastic supporters has been positive and has been getting RP's name out.

When the hounded Rudy in NH, RP became the story. The canceled straw poll in California made the GOP there look bad and made RP's supporters look like they got the short end of the stick.

2) The enthusiam is catchy. For everyone one offended anal retentive that isn't going to vote for RP anyway, ten more people are going to jump on the RP train.

3) Most adults, inlcuding Ron Paul supporters have common sense and are sensitive to where the line is between promoting RP vs embarassing him.

Because of the passion behind it all (which is the key to the current success), a incident is going to happen here and there. It's unavoidable but should be kept in perspective in the big scheme of things.

4) I don't think it's productive to knee jerk everytime someone blogs a story like this one. Half these people just want an audience and invoking RP in a negative way, in this case attacking his supporters directly, is going to bring him traffic.

Some of it IMO, is suppose to put doubt in our minds and make us question our techniques.

5) Obviously, jumping on the hood of someones car while banging on the windshield screaming VOTE FOR RON PAUL YOU &%$# isn't cool. If you see a fellow supporter off his or her meds, give them a friendly but firm nudge.

In the end, RP's supporters have already made political history by dedication, hard work, sacrifice and by challenging the status quo in a major way. The unbridled enthusiasm is working, don't stop now.

[evandi]

Liv certainly seemed to get this type of viciousness yesterday.

We all know she wants Ron Paul in the Oval Office but just by her saying that if he didn't win she might vote for Obama caused huge amounts of negative posts. Everyone got hyper fanatical and stated if Ron Paul didn't win we go to real revolution and we will never vote for anyone else. I have the strong impression that they would just hound anyone that disagreed in the same mannter that they fill comment sections for online articles and such. Very bad form.

She did us a great favor. Getting the nod from the Obama Girl was a great coup but some people just could not get past the fact that she cold even THINK of voting for anyone other then Ron. How would a person who was contemplating supporting Ron feel if he saw how members attacked another member in VERY good standing over what should be a non issue.

I even got labled a troll for bringing up the issue in another thread and it was moved to a different section. I don't get that. If people are so hypersensitive to the thought that we might vote for anyone else if RP doesn't make it then, yes, that article has merit.

With that said, without the support he would not have gotten this far. It's a catch 22. We'll just have to see.

Out of great debate came the constitution, not mindless group-think, and in any endeavor, there can also be those who are working undercover against the endeavor. If they are good at it they can seem like supporters, and if they are very good at it they can make real supporters, in comparison, seem suspect. Anyone can say anything and with enough effort convince everyone. Only great debate and honesty about what you believe, even if critical, can bring out the truth. And sometimes, arguing with people who are not really sincerely putting forth their real reasons can bring ridicule on oneself and waste energy as opposed to a real insult that cuts to the truth of the matter.

Liv's video was retarded in many ways. The opening dialogue was bland and seemed like she was being apologetic for her own support of a fringe candidate.

If she wants to improve, she needs to go back to what she was doing. I'm not one of those who dislike her taking off her clothes, but I do dislike her calling her pants Habeaus Corpus, because in the type of gig that she is in, her supporters want to see more, not less of her. In my book Obamagirl doesn't compare to her, but it seems that in her book Obamagirl is godly.

The very most important reason to hate the video is the fact that Obama has a very good chance of getting the democratic nomination... so why lend him support? If she is being honest about liking Obama, then fine but I've lost some respect for her. And she's better off knowing that fact.

[Cardinal Red]

Let me straighten you ego tripping fools out once and for all. Ron Paul has never ever never fucking ever asked me to do anything other than have fun and be myself. So now you clowns gotta waltz through and play the good ole boy political get along game that turned America off to begin with and pretend Ron Paul has different plans for me and my efforts than what he has said.

Eff off pal.. Yer a condescending bitch.



Randy, I am not going to waste any more time with you-- Do whatever you like-- it's a free country, that's why I phrased my comments as SUGGESTIONS-- if you want to hurt the campaign with your childish theatrics, profanity and namecalling, so be it. You may impress a few people with your bluster, but most will see right through it.

If you want to hurt the campaign because it pains you to show a little common courtesy to our opponents and to undecided voters you go right ahead. You obviously must know more about how to win elections than not just me, but everyone else who has ever been involved in any campaign. And I'm sure if Ron Paul were here, he'd be just delighted see you out there cursing, yelling, and swearing, not just at our opponents, but to fellow grassroots volunteers.

BTW the Anti-Catholicism and Anti-Semitism in your previous posts were a beautiful additional touch. You can feel free to have the last word If you'd like But from this point on, any comments from you will be happily ignored :)

[Corydoras]

If you see a fellow supporter off his or her meds, give them a friendly but firm nudge.

In what way is it at all possible to be "friendly yet firm" toward someone who is convinced that anyone who thinks their behavior is counterproductive is attempting to tyrannize them-- anyone who thinks their behavior is perfect and not only beyond reproach but praiseworthy?

[Corydoras]

You may impress a few people with your bluster, but most will see right through it.

I think you are being overly optimistic about people's perceptual powers.