Why Walls Won’t Secure The Border

[PAF]

But it does increase the cost and size of government.



https://youtu.be/Yh3fez9CyXg

https://youtu.be/Yh3fez9CyXg

[brushfire]

Why doesnt she talk to the US government facilitating mass firearm sales and drug smuggling?

If she's concerned about gun smuggling, Eric Holder beats all private gun sellers - she did not even mention fast and furious or any of the other gun walker "debacles". I personally dont thing they were programs gone bad - repeat mistakes of that magnitude are not mistakes.

She also spends no time speaking to how to address the immigration issue without the border wall. Then again, that's probably not the objective of this video. Why does that woman hate Mexico? What does the US have that Mexico does not - compelling her to claim that those people want a "better life". Free stuff = better life?

[Danke]

She should study how fences work. Like Hungry, Israel or the old East Germany, etc.

[PAF]

She should study how fences work. Like Hungry, Israel or the old East Germany, etc.

You should study how globalist/corporatist/lobbyists, our government, will use any tactic necessary to grow the Fed, the MIC, while putting the Tax Payer on the hook financially (we are broke), while losing freedom.

Emulating other countries is the sure-fire fastest way to abandon any sense of what is left of our liberty and freedom.

[Cap]

You should study how globalist/corporatist/lobbyists, our government, will use any tactic necessary to grow the Fed, the MIC, while putting the Tax Payer on the hook financially (we are broke), while losing freedom.

Emulating other countries is the sure-fire fastest way to abandon any sense of what is left of our liberty and freedom.That would mean having to deal with his cognitive dissonance.

[brushfire]

You should study how globalist/corporatist/lobbyists, our government, will use any tactic necessary to grow the Fed, the MIC, while putting the Tax Payer on the hook financially (we are broke), while losing freedom.

Emulating other countries is the sure-fire fastest way to abandon any sense of what is left of our liberty and freedom.

The other difference is that, at least with Israel, they have a fence where if you cross anyway, you'll be shot.

In the US, its just a token measure. On the other side of the fence are sanctuary cities, free education and healthcare, welfare, streets paved with gold, whathave you.

What else would constitute "Better life" and overcome the drawbacks of rape, 20% mortality rate, etc?

The wall is bullsh!t, and would do nothing to solve the illegal immigration issue. Besides, when one looks at the impact of illegal immigration its often tied to drawing from the welfare state without putting in. Couple that with the US and local governments being complicit in the shelter/welfare of these illegals, and you get to the real root of the problem.

So if you like smoke and mirrors, perhaps the occasional political reach around, go and pursue the wall. ...And when the world looks at you like a giant tit for the sucking, dont start complaining about chaffed nipples and dry ducts. 'Cause this wall is nothing but a giant nursing bra.

[Superfluous Man]

She should study how fences work. Like Hungry [sic], Israel or the old East Germany, etc.

All of those examples had to combine a police state with their walls. The walls alone would have been utterly ineffective.

[Cap]

All of those examples had to combine a police state with their walls. The walls alone would have been utterly ineffective.bears repeating.

[Danke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHe6vhexm6g

[navy-vet]

She should study how fences work. Like Hungry, Israel or the old East Germany, etc.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Danke again.

[Anti Federalist]

Any of you have a front door on your house?

[Sammy]

Francesca Fiorentini works for the young turks!
I cannot believe you promote a rabid Communist!

[juleswin]

But it does increase the cost and size of government.



https://youtu.be/Yh3fez9CyXg

https://youtu.be/Yh3fez9CyXg

I don't think the video answered the question in the title. Again, will a wall stop all illegal crossing? no. But a wall would stop a lot of the people crossing the border. Its like an umbrella, you don't toss it out because it gets your legs wet when using it. I think the problem the wall is supposed to solved can be solved with better less expensive, police state ways.

[Anti Federalist]

Why not ask these guys how unguarded territorial borders and unbridled immigration of a hostile culture worked out for them?

https://storage.googleapis.com/hippostcard/p/06426170673235617d976d6714c06381-800.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

while putting the Tax Payer on the hook financially (we are broke)

That's easy to solve, pay for it by cutting welfare spending.

SNAP handouts alone came to over $70 billion last year.

That would build a lotta wall.

[Zippyjuan]

1075732375169060869

[Ender]

Why not ask these guys how unguarded territorial borders and unbridled immigration of a hostile culture worked out for them?

https://storage.googleapis.com/hippostcard/p/06426170673235617d976d6714c06381-800.jpg

So you are really saying that America's problems are the white man's fault. :speaknoevil:

[TheTexan]

Walls won't secure the border.

But land-mines and MQ-1 drones will.

[Superfluous Man]

So you are really saying that America's problems are the white man's fault. :speaknoevil:

I thought he was saying, "We got where we are by violating nonwhite people's rights. At this point, we have no choice but to keep doing that forever or else it's all going to come crashing down on us."

[Ender]

I thought he was saying, "We got where we are by violating nonwhite people's rights. At this point, we have no choice but to keep doing that forever or else it's all going to come crashing down on us."

KARMA.

[Philhelm]

Any of you have a front door on your house?

But someone can break through one of your windows. Checkmate!

[Anti Federalist]

So you are really saying that America's problems are the white man's fault. :speaknoevil:


I thought he was saying, "We got where we are by violating nonwhite people's rights. At this point, we have no choice but to keep doing that forever or else it's all going to come crashing down on us."

I'm saying that the native Indian population, because they could not, would not organize to defend their territory, defend their culture, defend their family and defend their lives, were supplanted and displaced by a culture and people hostile to them, and because of that they became second class citizens, wards of the state and little more than prisoners on the lands they once called their own.

Happens all the time in human history.

I'm hoping that we could find the courage to defend ourselves against invasion.

But I'm pretty convinced it's a lost cause...the people that should be rising up to defend themselves are too stupid, too poisoned by self loathing propaganda, too soft, too corrupt, too cosmopolitan and too world weary to do so.

And that's why the invaders will win.

And why, for all it's warts, one of the last bastions of limited government, property rights, Western enlightenment philosophy and individual liberty, will die.

[Philhelm]

I took the bait and watched the video, but she literally does not mention why walls don't work. It's one thing to debate the merits of The Wall from a liberty perspective, cost perspective, etc., but stating that walls don't work* is ridiculous. The technology is simple, but it is no less effective for that; hence, walls have been used for thousands of years.

*Yes, any wall can be overcome through ingenuity, but walls serve to deter, delay, and in some cases prevent intrusion by all but the most determined.

Regardless, this wasn't the video to provoke thought on the issue.

[Anti Federalist]

I took the bait and watched the video, but she literally does not mention why walls don't work. It's one thing to debate the merits of The Wall from a liberty perspective, cost perspective, etc., but stating that walls don't work* is ridiculous. The technology is simple, but it is no less effective for that; hence, walls have been used for thousands of years.

*Yes, any wall can be overcome through ingenuity, but walls serve to deter, delay, and in some cases prevent intrusion by all but the most determined.

Regardless, this wasn't the video to provoke thought on the issue.

"Why do you bother to lock anything, a bolt cutter will get right past it."

[showpan]

I wrote this piece February 27, 2017


Walls are not built to keep people out, they are built to keep people in such as prison walls. While the great wall of China may have temporarily deterred only the feeble minded robbers and raiders, it failed miserably as a defensive fortification. The builders of what is left of the Ming Dynasty wall were wiped out as the Manchu marched straight through.
If there is a will, there is a way.
President Trump wants to build a wall along the Mexican border. The total length of the continental border is 1,989 miles Land along the border cuts through cities, including San Ysidro, California, and El Paso, Texas, as well as rural farmland, desert, arroyos, steep mountains and wildlife reserves. Rural farmlands rely on the rivers for water. Environmental impacts on those private lands would be tremendous as the wall would have to be built on our side blocking off the flow of water while giving up half the river since the border runs right down the middle in many areas.

Two-thirds of the land along the border is private or state-owned. Most of that land is in Texas, where much of the border does not already have fencing. The Trump administration would need to use eminent domain to acquire the remaining land needed. Attempts to acquire land would certainly face challenges in court. Historically, wall-related land cases have taken years to resolve, with costly settlements often resulting. Hundreds of property owners were sued just to build the existing chunks of wall. Some 400 relinquished properties ranging in size from a driveway to commercial lots and farms, costing the government at least $15 million in 2012. Some property owners, whose land would be caught between the wall and the Mexico border, are likely to file claims of lost property value, which could slow down any construction on a wall greatly impacting the final cost.

Building the wall would be a tremendous feat whose budget would soon soar astronomically. Even with the repeal of the Davis Bacon Act that would enable the government to hire cheap Mexican labor (ironic to say the least), The costs would rapidly multiply quickly. In the remote parts of the dessert, you would have to provide shelter, food and water for the laborers and craftsman since making a daily trip to these remote places would not be feasible. There are no hotels, restaurants, gas stations, etc in much of the region.. Roads would have to be built in order to move the enormous amounts of materials, equipment and manpower needed. Portable power would have to be provided. Then, once you get through the vast dessert and reach the rugged mountainous regions, work would come to a screeching crawl. Steep cliffs, jagged terrain, deep washes, loose broken ground would have to be transformed into some kind of footing for such a wall. Even if you switched to fencing, it would still require much excavation for a secure structure. The roads needed to reach these remote places alone would cost as much as a wall or fence if not more since they would have to remain in order to maintain it. You aren't going to drive concrete trucks through the mountains along donkey paths.Once you have traversed the mountains, there are still the rivers to contend with. Any kind of wall would need a solid footing much like building a bridge. The logistics for this would be monumental just as it were for the Chinese in the 7th century.

Trump has claimed that Mexico will be paying for the wall. That is a lie. He would start the wall using our tax dollars and then impose an import tax (tariff) on goods coming in. An import tax may be paid initially by Mexican companies but in reality, they would not pay anything as this cost would be directly added to the price of their goods. That means WE would still be paying for it as the cost of everything we import would increase by the 20% Trump would tax them. In turn, Mexico would place an import tax on our exports creating a trade war that will ultimately cost each and every one of us in jobs and increased costs of the many goods we buy and sell with our neighbor.

Walls will not keep them out as many of the immigrants that have come into this country did so legally through border check points or have flown into our airports.Once here, they simply did not return. Smugglers have dug many tunnels, most of which are still yet to be found while others will never be found. Ladders were designed to traverse walls. Sledge hammers and battery operated chipping hammers will ensure that the wall is merely a colossal monument built to satisfy small minded individuals with super enlarged egos.

Trump has targeted the wrong people. it's our own fault that bad people want to come into this country. The poor Mexican worker comes here to survive and feed off a system that was designed to enable them. When H.W. Bush wrote NAFTA, it was enacted not only to open the borders for companies to move freely to exploit cheap labor and resources, it paved the way for a mass influx of desperate workers to artificially manipulate the wages for Americans. It wasn't about helping the people of a poor nation, it was all about breaking the backs of unions so companies could make triple profits more than what they were already making. Unfortunately, it didn't work as well as they planned since most of the companies that stayed were union. It was mostly non union companies that moved. Then G.W. Bush promised them amnesty and millions came flooding in.

For all intense purposes, people love to be fed what they want to hear. They are nothing more than brainwashed sheep. If anyone had any real intentions of stopping the millions of illegal workers from taking our jobs, they would go after the employer and enforce our existing laws. If they can't find work, they wouldn't stay. This country hands out work visas like it's candy. Why, because the very same billionaires who tell you that illegals are stealing our jobs are the same ones who hire foreigners to replace Americans who refuse to work for 3rd world wages, long hours and no benefits. The illegals are NOT taking our jobs that Americans refuse to do. That is a blatant lie. They are doing ANY and every job they can get hired for.

The wall is a gimmick. It's a tool to get people to believe that they are doing something about this grave problem when in reality, they aren't doing anything at all to prevent companies from hiring them. I haven't heard one mention of eliminating the work Visa program either. It's a charade and nothing more. You can't cure the disease by treating the symptom.

Then there is the refugee problem we face. Our government has disrupted the middle east and other places. It has turned it into a vast killing zone. We bomb them daily killing untold scores of woman and children targeting hospitals, schools and residential neighborhoods. We have created terrorists not just by our illegal interventionist ways, but by directly funding, arming and training groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda to serve our corporations in their never ending thirst for cheaper natural resources and regime change to transform other governments into corporate friendly interests.

911 did not happen as a result of us having too much freedoms...it was the direct result. It was blowback from our foreign policy created by a group of people who's sole desire is to control us along with the worlds currency and resources.

Until we as Americans come to understand the reality of just what is really happening, this country will remain divided and conquered. Trump claims that we will win. That we will win so much that we will be begging to stop winning. If winning means that we continue to blame the wrong people for what has truly happened to this country as we enter into another cold war, building fake walls to satisfy fake conservatives, then winning means that we have already lost.

[TheCount]

All of those examples had to combine a police state with their walls. The walls alone would have been utterly ineffective.

They know that. That's the intent.

[showpan]

All of those examples had to combine a police state WITHIN their walls. The walls alone would have been utterly ineffective.

Modern walls are meant for us, not them...lol

[Anti Federalist]

They know that. That's the intent.

A wall does not require a police state.

Multiple ethnic and religious groups thrown together for "diversity" does.

Exhibit A: Look out your window. No wall to speak of here, but we sure as hell got diversity and a heavy handed police state.

[juleswin]

All of those examples had to combine a police state with their walls. The walls alone would have been utterly ineffective.

I think people are more afraid of illegal immigrants than they are of the police state. Also we already have a police state(not the extent they have in Israel, East Germany or China), so why not take advantage of it by adding the wall to the system?

[CaptainAmerica]

But it does increase the cost and size of government.



https://youtu.be/Yh3fez9CyXg

https://youtu.be/Yh3fez9CyXg
walls dont work, and we dont need walls if democrats would stop the coup they fund

[Philhelm]

I think people are more afraid of illegal immigrants than they are of the police state. Also we already have a police state(not the extent they have in Israel, East Germany or China), so why not take advantage of it by adding the wall to the system?

I "fear" the immigrants since I view them as going hand-in-hand with the expansion of the police state.

[AngryCanadian]

The walls wont be enough without a strong presences of the US military national guard protecting the borders.

[Zippyjuan]

I think people are more afraid of illegal immigrants than they are of the police state. Also we already have a police state(not the extent they have in Israel, East Germany or China), so why not take advantage of it by adding the wall to the system?

"Let's use the wall as a great excuse to expand our police state! Everybody else does!"

[Superfluous Man]

The walls wont be enough without a strong presences of the US military national guard protecting the borders.

Yes. And that presence can't just be along the border. In order to work it has to be everywhere. And it has to be up to each and every one of us to be prepared to prove we have the regime's right to be present within its borders with the right paperwork/microchip/biometrics whenever one of them asks us for such proof.

[juleswin]

"Let's use the wall as a great excuse to expand our police state! Everybody else does!"

I hate to say this but safety and financial prosperity is more important than freedom to most people. Rand ran his campaign on the banner of preventing govt from spying on their cell phones and he flopped.

[juleswin]

I "fear" the immigrants since I view them as going hand-in-hand with the expansion of the police state.

So are you saying you would be OK with illegal immigrants if they didn't go hand in hand with the police state?

[Anti Federalist]

Yes. And that presence can't just be along the border. In order to work it has to be everywhere. And it has to be up to each and every one of us to be prepared to prove we have the regime's right to be present within its borders with the right paperwork/microchip/biometrics whenever one of them asks us for such proof.

No, it does not.

Right now only us chump "citizens" are the one who bother to comply with all that.

[Swordsmyth]

I "fear" the immigrants since I view them as going hand-in-hand with the expansion of the police state.
They vote for it and they provide the excuses for it.

Open borders and multiculturalism feeds the police state.

[Swordsmyth]

Yes. And that presence can't just be along the border. In order to work it has to be everywhere. And it has to be up to each and every one of us to be prepared to prove we have the regime's right to be present within its borders with the right paperwork/microchip/biometrics whenever one of them asks us for such proof.
WRONG.

[Swordsmyth]

So are you saying you would be OK with illegal immigrants if they didn't go hand in hand with the police state?

That's not what he said, they also go hand in hand with communism in general.

[Swordsmyth]

You should study how globalist/corporatist/lobbyists, our government, will use any tactic necessary to grow the Fed, the MIC, while putting the Tax Payer on the hook financially (we are broke), while losing freedom.
Like importing millions of communists.


Emulating other countries is the sure-fire fastest way to abandon any sense of what is left of our liberty and freedom.
That depends on which other countries and what aspects we emulate.

[Swordsmyth]

All of those examples had to combine a police state with their walls. The walls alone would have been utterly ineffective.


bears repeating.
Nope, only some of them.

[Swordsmyth]

Francesca Fiorentini works for the young turks!
I cannot believe you promote a rabid Communist!
That's because he is one in disguise.

[Superfluous Man]

WRONG.

Not wrong at all. Without those kinds of policies, what's to stop any so-called "illegal immigrant" who's anywhere in the nation's interior from just claiming to have been born here and just not having papers to prove it?

We already have that when it comes to requirements to work here legally. And generally immigration restrictionists support those laws.

[Swordsmyth]

That's easy to solve, pay for it by cutting welfare spending.

SNAP handouts alone came to over $70 billion last year.

That would build a lotta wall.

And the invaders will cost us more than the enforcement or the wall if they are allowed in.

[Superfluous Man]

No, it does not.

It does.

[juleswin]

That's not what he said, they also go hand in hand with communism in general.

Ofc that is not what he said, it is a question I am asking him

[Swordsmyth]

Not wrong at all. Without those kinds of policies, what's to stop any so-called "illegal immigrant" who's anywhere in the nation's interior from just claiming to have been born here and just not having papers to prove it?

We already have that when it comes to requirements to work here legally. And generally immigration restrictionists support those laws.
We don't need 100% effectiveness and there are ways to deal with illegals without a "police state", you don't get to call any enforcement at all a "police state".

[Swordsmyth]

So you are really saying that America's problems are the white man's fault. :speaknoevil:
The Injuns' problems were.

[Swordsmyth]

I thought he was saying, "We got where we are by violating nonwhite people's rights. At this point, we have no choice but to keep doing that forever or else it's all going to come crashing down on us."
LOL

Everybody got their territory by taking it from others, including the Injuns.

That doesn't mean we have to atone for the "sins" of our ancestors by making the same mistake the Injuns did.

[Swordsmyth]

KARMA.
So you believe in inherited guilt?

[Swordsmyth]

All of those examples had to combine a police state WITHIN their walls. The walls alone would have been utterly ineffective.

Modern walls are meant for us, not them...lol
Wrong.

Open borders and multiculturalism feed the police state.

[familydog]

Walls are not built to keep people out, they are built to keep people in such as prison walls.

I keep seeing this repeated over and over again by libertarians. Ron Paul has even made this statement. So that leads me to ask a simple question. What are some examples of countries that built walls to keep people inside their borders and effectively used them to persecute large swaths of the population?

[juleswin]

I keep seeing this repeated over and over again by libertarians. Ron Paul has even made this statement. So that leads me to ask a simple question. What are some examples of countries that built walls to keep people inside their borders and effectively used them to persecute large swaths of the population?

Ron did not say walls are only used to keep people in. Ron just pointed out that walls can also be used to keep people in which is 100% true. The wall supporters tend to only see one use of the wall and Ron sees other uses of the wall.

[familydog]

Ron did not say walls are only used to keep people in. Ron just pointed out that walls can also be used to keep people in which is 100% true. The wall supporters tend to only see one use of the wall and Ron sees other uses of the wall.

Fair enough. However, my question still stands.

And for the record, if walls are effective at disallowing passage from the inside out, then they have to be just as effective at keeping people from passing from the outside in. That is something we need to recognize.

[juleswin]

Fair enough. However, my question still stands.

And for the record, if walls are effective at disallowing passage from the inside out, then they have to be just as effective at keeping people from passing from the outside in. That is something we need to recognize.

I have said the same thing too, Ron is not part of the people who say walls don't work. Wall are simple and fundamental and they generally work even in the 21st century. Your quarrel is not with Ron Paul

[tfurrh]

I keep seeing this repeated over and over again by libertarians. Ron Paul has even made this statement. So that leads me to ask a simple question. What are some examples of countries that built walls to keep people inside their borders and effectively used them to persecute large swaths of the population?

DMZ? Off the top of my head

[juleswin]

DMZ? Of the top of my head

There is a wall of soldiers, not a physical wall in North Korea. East Germany is a better answer than North Korea

[Zippyjuan]

There is a wall of soldiers, not a physical wall in North Korea. East Germany is a better answer than North Korea

Israel too.

[familydog]

I have said the same thing too, Ron is not part of the people who say walls don't work. Wall are simple and fundamental and they generally work even in the 21st century. Your quarrel is not with Ron Paul

I am in no way quarreling with Ron Paul.

[tfurrh]

There is a wall of soldiers, not a physical wall in North Korea. East Germany is a better answer than North Korea

There's more than just soldiers....There's fence/buildings/gates too, but yeah not a wall like another brick in the wall wall.

[Zippyjuan]

We don't need 100% effectiveness and there are ways to deal with illegals without a "police state", you don't get to call any enforcement at all a "police state".

Then we are good. No more force or wall needed.

1075732375169060869

[familydog]

DMZ? Off the top of my head

I think the propaganda and police state of North Korea are the reason people are not crossing the DMZ.

[Swordsmyth]

Then we are good. No more force or wall needed.

1075732375169060869
We need more than we have now.

We need to expel 20-30 Million and stop the millions that enter each year.

[tfurrh]

I think the propaganda and police state of North Korea are the reason people are not crossing the DMZ.

I was just saying that's a country that doesn't regularly or freely let their people out

[tfurrh]

There is a wall of soldiers, not a physical wall in North Korea. East Germany is a better answer than North Korea

But I'll tell you this, not that I'd like to see either one, but I'd a million time over prefer a wall of soldiers across the southern border than a freaking wall.

[familydog]

I was just saying that's a country that doesn't regularly or freely let their people out

You are certainly correct in your example. I just want to be clear that I would argue that the "wall" in this case is not the reason North Koreans are staying put.

[Zippyjuan]

We need more than we have now.

We need to expel 20-30 Million and stop the millions that enter each year.

Contradicting yourself again?


Yes. And that presence can't just be along the border. In order to work it has to be everywhere. And it has to be up to each and every one of us to be prepared to prove we have the regime's right to be present within its borders with the right paperwork/microchip/biometrics whenever one of them asks us for such proof.


WRONG.

How do you round/ expel up 20-30 million and only have your police state at the border? They have to go to peoples homes and businesses and places of work to find them.

[Swordsmyth]

But I'll tell you this, not that I'd like to see either one, but I'd a million time over prefer a wall of soldiers across the southern border than a freaking wall.
I'll take either one instead of millions of communists but I would prefer military patrols to the wall too.

[Swordsmyth]

Contradicting yourself again?





How do you round up 20 million and only have your police state at the border?

It is quite possible to expel them without a police state.
Most of them will leave on their own once you begin reasonable enforcement.

[Anti Federalist]

But I'll tell you this, not that I'd like to see either one, but I'd a million time over prefer a wall of soldiers across the southern border than a freaking wall.

So would I.

If there was any real effort at the fedgov level to actually get control of this, the CiC would have long ago called out both organized and unorganized militia to guard the border, with rifles.

[Zippyjuan]

It is quite possible to expel them without a police state.
Most of them will leave on their own once you begin reasonable enforcement.

How so? Nicely ask them? Send them a text or email?


once you begin reasonable enforcement

Enforcement without any police state?

[juleswin]

So would I.

If there was any real effort at the fedgov level to actually get control of this, the CiC would have long ago called out both organized and unorganized militia to guard the border, with rifles.

So any ideas why Trump who btw is not a puppet is not implementing any of those ideas?

[Philhelm]

So are you saying you would be OK with illegal immigrants if they didn't go hand in hand with the police state?

I don't think that it is healthy for an established nation to accommodate massive and sudden immigration due to the risk of ideological, cultural, social, etc., balkanization (as is currently happening). If illegal immigration was at a level where it wasn't drastically changing the nation then it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that most of them love European style socialism or worse only compounds the issue.

[Swordsmyth]

How so? Nicely ask them? Send them a text or email?



Enforcement without any police state?
Enforcemnt=/=Police state.

[Swordsmyth]

So any ideas why Trump who btw is not a puppet is not implementing any of those ideas?
RINOs and impeachment.

He may get there eventually once the political and public relations groundwork has been done.

[Zippyjuan]

Enforcemnt=/=Police state.

How do you conduct your enforcement?

[Swordsmyth]

How do you conduct your enforcement?
There are a variety of ways but I am not going to go into them here and now.

Some of them might not be what you would want on a permanent basis either but this isn't normal:

I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently. Ron Paul on Meet The Press 23 Dec 2007 (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22342301/ns/meet_the_press/t/meet-press-transcript-dec/#.XKK-FFVKjcs)

[Zippyjuan]

There are a variety of ways but I am not going to go into them here and now.

Some of them might not be what you would want on a permanent basis either but this isn't normal:



So, kinda like a police state only not really a police state.

[juleswin]

RINOs and impeachment.

He may get there eventually once the political and public relations groundwork has been done.

I asked a question I knew the answers to and sorry SS, those are not the answers an not even close

[Stratovarious]

It is quite possible to expel them without a police state.
Most of them will leave on their own once you begin reasonable enforcement.

I don't believe any of them would leave, the only ones that would possibly leave willfully are the
ones that should be at the top of the list to immigrate, the worst of the worst will never have
intentions of leaving the Golden Goose.

We need a round up , a wall, and or effective border security, deletion of all freebies, we should
probably expel CA, NY, and other states that have become sanctuary states, and jail
employers that encourage more illegal immigration.

[Swordsmyth]

So, kinda like a police state only not really a police state.
Nope.

Kinda like a war.

Then peace and border security.

[Zippyjuan]

Nope.

Kinda like a war.

Then peace and border security.

So worse than a police state but not a police state. Gotcha.

[Stratovarious]

So, kinda like a police state only not really a police state.
We need to eradicate all illegals , what would you do to get that done ?


Answer; Nothing, they'll vote socialist , and often,,,,,,

[Swordsmyth]

I asked a question I knew the answers to and sorry SS, those are not the answers an not even close

Those are exactly the answers, in order to do any good he has to remain in office.

[Swordsmyth]

So worse than a police state but not a police state. Gotcha.

Nope.

[juleswin]

I don't think that it is healthy for an established nation to accommodate massive and sudden immigration due to the risk of ideological, cultural, social, etc., balkanization (as is currently happening). If illegal immigration was at a level where it wasn't drastically changing the nation then it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that most of them love European style socialism or worse only compounds the issue.

I actually agree mostly with what you said. I think there is a limit to how many people a state can welcome and when many of those people coming are coming from war stricken areas then that number is even smaller. Sadly our govt is busy destabilizing various areas of the world creating many more refugees than anyone can handle. This is why I speak out so much about issues on foreign policy. I would prefer people stay in their homes than are forced to leave because of what some in our govt did.

[Zippyjuan]

We need to eradicate all illegals , what would you do to get that done ?


Answer; Nothing, they'll vote socialist , and often,,,,,,

Some thoughts from a guy named Ron Paul.

https://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul_Immigration.htm


Give illegals limbo status: a green card with an asterisk

Immigrants who can't be sent back due to the magnitude of the problem should not be given citizenship--no amnesty should be granted. Maybe a "green card" with an asterisk could be issued. This in-between status, keeping illegal immigrants in limbo, will be said that it will create a class of 2nd-class citizens. Yet it could be argued that it may well allow some immigrants who come here illegally a beneficial status without automatic citizenship--a much better option than deportation.

Source: Liberty Defined, by Rep. Ron Paul, p.156 , Apr 19, 2011

Sending 12M illegals home won't & shouldn't happen

Even with a healthy economy and stricter border controls, the issue of what to do with twelve-million-plus illegals already here would persist. One side says use the U.S. Army, round them up, and ship them home. The other side says give them amnesty, make them full-fledged citizens, and reward the lawbreakers, thus insulting and unfairly penalizing those who have patiently waited and obeyed our immigration laws. The first choice--sending twelve to fifteen million illegals home--isn't going to happen and should not happen. Neither the determination or the ability to accomplish it exists. Besides, if each case is looked at separately, we would find ourselves splitting up families and deporting some who have lived here for decades, if not their entire life, and who never lived for any length of time in Mexico.
Source: Liberty Defined, by Rep. Ron Paul, p.153 , Apr 19, 2011

If economy were good, there'd be no immigration problem

Q: When you ran for president in 1988, you said, "As in our country's first 150 years, there shouldn�t be any immigration policy at all. We should welcome everyone who wants to come here and work." You've changed your view.

A: And during that campaign I got into trouble with Libertarians because I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently. My approach to immigration is somewhat different than the others. Mine is you deal with it economically We're in worse shape now because we subsidize immigration. We give food stamps, Social Security, free medical care, free education and amnesty. So you subsidize it, and you have a mess. Conditions have changed. And I think this means that we should look at immigration differently. It's an economic issue more than anything. If our economy was in good health, I don't think there'd be an immigration problem. We'd be looking for workers and we would be very generous.

Source: Meet the Press: 2007 �Meet the Candidates� series , Dec 23, 2007

[Stratovarious]

Nope.

Kinda like a war.

Then peace and border security.

It seems like I'm banned from repg' you :frog:
this rep system doesn't really work, but I know , consider all the fubar features on this forum , from
useless search engine to the repping feature, nothing will ever change.
I do like the fast page loading though , that is a nice feature.
''You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Swordsmyth again.''

[Stratovarious]

Some thoughts from a guy named Ron Paul.

https://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul_Immigration.htm
Ron Paul knows better, this is not the Ron Paul I know.
2011 2007

:frog:

[Zippyjuan]

Nope.

Kinda like a war.

Then peace and border security.

Send the military in to check everybody's papers?

[juleswin]

Those are exactly the answers, in order to do any good he has to remain in office.

Impeachment is still on the table so why is Trump doing anything you guys like? also if you are saying that he could not build a wall with RINOs in the house(he didn't even try) then how the hell is going to build it with less republicans(RINO or not) and more people like The Squad against him?

He is a con man, that is the answer. He never care about the wall, my guess is that they would let him build some wall later on to keep his supporter a reason to buy into the con. So everyone remembers, Obama also built walls and deported people. Heck, Obama deported my dad and he had a green card.

[Zippyjuan]

Ron Paul knows better, this is not the Ron Paul I know.
2011 2007

:frog:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/ron-paul-on-trumps-border-wall-totally-useless


Ron Paul on Trump's Border Wall: Totally Useless

Former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) says President Trump's plan to build a wall along the country's Southern border a "totally useless" idea with low support in border states.

A new poll found that 61% of Texas citizens do not approve of building a wall along the border with Mexico to keep illegal immigrants out. "I’m glad that the poll shows that people in Texas don’t think much of this wall,” Paul told the FOX Business Network’s Maria Bartiromo.

"I’ve always argued that the walls are going to hinder the American people as much as anybody," Paul said. "If somebody has honestly earned money and they want to walk across the border, they become criminals, you know, they can’t do it because they have all these regulations.”




“I think a wall is totally useless and he didn’t mention how he was going to pay for that wall, you know, Sessions didn’t say a word. That’s billions of dollars, nobody knows what it will cost and it won’t work, it’s so detrimental to the concept of liberty because what it is, they’re treating a symptom rather than saying, ‘our problem is a healthy economy and allowing people to trade freely.’”

[Swordsmyth]

Some thoughts from a guy named Ron Paul.

https://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul_Immigration.htm
Ron is wrong.

Ron WAS right: I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently. Ron Paul on Meet The Press 23 Dec 2007 (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22342301/ns/meet_the_press/t/meet-press-transcript-dec/#.XKK-FFVKjcs)

[Stratovarious]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/ron-paul-on-trumps-border-wall-totally-useless



"I’ve always argued that the walls are going to hinder the American people as much as anybody," Paul said. "If somebody has honestly earned money and they want to walk across the border, they become criminals, you know, they can’t do it because they have all these regulations.”

This doesn't even make any sense at all.

[Swordsmyth]

Impeachment is still on the table so why is Trump doing anything you guys like? also if you are saying that he could not build a wall with RINOs in the house(he didn't even try) then how the hell is going to build it with less republicans(RINO or not) and more people like The Squad against him?

He is a con man, that is the answer. He never care about the wall, my guess is that they would let him build some wall later on to keep his supporter a reason to buy into the con. So everyone remembers, Obama also built walls and deported people. Heck, Obama deported my dad and he had a green card.
He is carefully balancing what he gives to whom and keeping impeachment at bay, he is now building the wall using emergency money and other sources of money that Congress can't block, he is also doing lots of other things to secure the border, expel the invaders and reduce incentives.

He will do more as he can.

[Zippyjuan]

https://moneyandmarkets.com/paul-dont-need-border-wall-illegal-immigration/


Ron Paul: We Don’t Need a Border Wall to Stop Illegal Immigration

Jan 8, 2019

<snip>

“I don’t like walls,” Paul said on CNBC’s “Squawk Box” program. “I don’t want to wall people in and wall people out.”

“The shutdown is not too significant in the scheme of things,” Paul said. “But it’s another thing that can stir up trouble and people react to it. But, no, I think they’re completely wrong. I don’t like walls. I’m a Libertarian. I don’t want to wall people in and I don’t want to wall people out.

“But I don’t want free, open borders either. I think you have to remove the incentives for people to come, and they come because there’s a welfare system here, easy access to citizenship. It’s politicized because one group thinks they can get the votes. But people should be able to come to visit and work, but you have to get rid of the incentives — no easy road to citizenship.”

[Swordsmyth]

https://moneyandmarkets.com/paul-dont-need-border-wall-illegal-immigration/

I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently. Ron Paul on Meet The Press 23 Dec 2007 (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22342301/ns/meet_the_press/t/meet-press-transcript-dec/#.XKK-FFVKjcs)

[Zippyjuan]

I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently. Ron Paul on Meet The Press 23 Dec 2007 (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22342301/ns/meet_the_press/t/meet-press-transcript-dec/#.XKK-FFVKjcs)

Taken out of context. He says he used to say that. Then he goes into talking about removing the incentives instead. Here is what he really said in that interview:


MR. RUSSERT: Let me ask you about immigration because that's a big issue here, and there has been a profound change. Back when you ran for president, 1988, libertarian, you said, "As in our country's first 150 years, there shouldn't be any immigration policy at all. We should welcome everyone who wants to come here and work." You've changed your view.

REP. PAUL: And, and during that campaign, I remember I got into trouble with Libertarians because I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently. And I think, in one sense, with the welfare state out of control--see, my approach to immigration is somewhat different than the others. Mine is you deal with it economically. We're in worse shape now because we subsidize immigration. We give food stamps, Social Security, free medical care, free education and amnesty. So you subsidize it, and you have a mess. Our hospitals are being closed. Conditions have changed. And I think that we should have--and, and 9/11 has occurred. Why shouldn't we be looking at people coming in? So there's--this, this means that we should look at immigration differently. It's an economic issue more than anything. If our economy was in good health, I--believe me, I don't think there'd be an immigration problem. We'd be looking for workers and we would be very generous.

[Swordsmyth]

Taken out of context. He says he used to say that. Then he goes into talking about removing the incentives instead. Here is what he really said in that interview:
We didn't end welfare and now we have the invasion he warned about and we are forced to treat it like one.

And we would have reached this point anyway because liberty produces wealth and that is an incentive you can't and don't want to end.

[showpan]

Walls are merely an obstacle for those wanting to get past them. They will not and never will keep those wanting to enter this country from doing so. On the contrary, meh thinks that wall has a much deeper meaning for those with very sinister intentions for this country. It will ensure that mass amounts of people will not be able to exit. As our cities become less stable and people become more violent towards each other (see divide and conquer) the police state will surely grow into more of a militarized zone just as it has already been doing so over the last 3 decades. The neocons (corporate fascists) with their puppet presidents (including Trump) have all but ensured that this nation will never reverse course. They have brainwashed so many into thinking that there are only 2 political parties when in fact they are actually one, that lines have been drawn in the sand and the American people will continue to point fingers at one another. The boiling point is growing near. A wall will ensure that most stay IN like penned up cattle for slaughter. What better way to control the masses than with walls just as Israel does.

[Swordsmyth]

Walls are merely an obstacle for those wanting to get past them. They will not and never will keep those wanting to enter this country from doing so...It will ensure that mass amounts of people will not be able to exit.
I've never seen somebody actually make both claims at once before.

Congratulations.

[showpan]

For those wanting to end the welfare state, forget it....lol...JP and Chase make millions off of welfare. It will never happen. what better way to control mass amounts of people than to have them begging for crumbs and handouts. This country is already socialist...lol...anyone who thinks it is not is looking through beer goggles tinted with denial.
it will only get worse because people still do not know who the real traitors are.

[Swordsmyth]

Walls are merely an obstacle for those wanting to get past them. They will not and never will keep those wanting to enter this country from doing so. On the contrary, meh thinks that wall has a much deeper meaning for those with very sinister intentions for this country. It will ensure that mass amounts of people will not be able to exit. As our cities become less stable and people become more violent towards each other (see divide and conquer) the police state will surely grow into more of a militarized zone just as it has already been doing so over the last 3 decades. The neocons (corporate fascists) with their puppet presidents (including Trump) have all but ensured that this nation will never reverse course. They have brainwashed so many into thinking that there are only 2 political parties when in fact they are actually one, that lines have been drawn in the sand and the American people will continue to point fingers at one another. The boiling point is growing near. A wall will ensure that most stay IN like penned up cattle for slaughter. What better way to control the masses than with walls just as Israel does.
If America ever gets bad enough that we would want to leave there won't be anyplace better to go.

And open borders and multiculturalism feed the police state and the corporate fascists, that's why the establishment fights against border security and for illegal invaders along with excessive legal immigration of communist barbarians.

[Swordsmyth]

For those wanting to end the welfare state, forget it....lol...JP and Chase make millions off of welfare. It will never happen. what better way to control mass amounts of people than to have them begging for crumbs and handouts. This country is already socialist...lol...anyone who thinks it is not is looking through beer goggles tinted with denial.
it will only get worse because people still do not know who the real traitors are.
Thanks for your concern but some of us don't feel like surrendering yet.

[showpan]

I've never seen somebody actual make both claims at once before.

Congratulations.

If mass amounts of people tried to leave California all at once, not going to happen. If small amounts of people want to get in, still going to happen.....it's a very easy concept if you wish to see it.

[Swordsmyth]

If mass amounts of people tried to leave California all at once, not going to happen. If small amounts of people want to get in, still going to happen.....it's a very easy concept if you wish to see it.

That's a nice attempt to make the two situations different.

Why would people trying to leave be part of a massive herd but people coming in only come in in small parties?

[showpan]

Thanks for your concern but some of us don't feel like surrendering yet.

I'm not surrendering...lol....just stating the obvious facts. The rich and powerful along with Facebook, google and the MSM have got it down to a science on how to rig elections, change public perception, attack countries that have never attacked us, etc, etc etc. Even here at this forum people are very much divided. They can't even agree on who is doing what to whom.
How do you plan to fight them? If you come up with a good plan, please let us know.

[showpan]

That's a nice attempt to make the two situations different.

Why would people trying to leave be part of a massive herd but people coming in only come in in small parties?

They have been coming in small parties for decades now....lol

[Swordsmyth]

I'm not surrendering...lol....just stating the obvious facts. The rich and powerful along with Facebook, google and the MSM have got it down to a science on how to rig elections, change public perception, attack countries that have never attacked us, etc, etc etc. Even here at this forum people are very much divided. They can't even agree on who is doing what to whom.
How do you plan to fight them? If you come up with a good plan, please let us know.
Secure the border and evict the invaders, you can tell that that is a good idea because of how the establishment fights against it.

[Swordsmyth]

They have been coming in small parties for decades now....lol
Duh!

Why would people trying to leave be part of a massive herd?

[Swordsmyth]

If mass amounts of people tried to leave California all at once, not going to happen. If small amounts of people want to get in, still going to happen.....it's a very easy concept if you wish to see it.
And a wall will help reduce the invasion of small groups that add up to tens of millions of communist invaders.

[Philhelm]

Walls are merely an obstacle for those wanting to get past them. They will not and never will keep those wanting to enter this country from doing so.

Any wall can be overcome, but they still serve to reduce the number of people entering through a combination of deterrence, delay, and sometimes prevention.


On the contrary, meh thinks that wall has a much deeper meaning for those with very sinister intentions for this country. It will ensure that mass amounts of people will not be able to exit.

Wait. A wall can't keep people out but it can keep us in?


As our cities become less stable and people become more violent towards each other (see divide and conquer) the police state will surely grow into more of a militarized zone just as it has already been doing so over the last 3 decades. The neocons (corporate fascists) with their puppet presidents (including Trump) have all but ensured that this nation will never reverse course. They have brainwashed so many into thinking that there are only 2 political parties when in fact they are actually one, that lines have been drawn in the sand and the American people will continue to point fingers at one another. The boiling point is growing near. A wall will ensure that most stay IN like penned up cattle for slaughter. What better way to control the masses than with walls just as Israel does.

The U.S. is far too vast for a southern border wall to be used as a means of controlling the population. I don't think that's a realistic concern.

[showpan]

If America ever gets bad enough that we would want to leave there won't be anyplace better to go.

And open borders and multiculturalism feed the police state and the corporate fascists, that's why the establishment fights against border security and for illegal invaders along with excessive legal immigration of communist barbarians.

This country was founded upon open borders. It in itself does not feed the police state...lol....policy and populace inaction feeds a police state. A wall will ensure you have no place to go.

[showpan]

The U.S. is far too vast for a southern border wall to be used as a means of controlling the population. I don't think that's a realistic concern.

On the contrary, it's just another step. Walls, cameras, satellites, drones, militarized police force, surveillance, recording every bit of data .....kind of sounds like a prison to me.

[showpan]

And a wall will help reduce the invasion of small groups that add up to tens of millions of communist invaders.

A wall will do nothing as most of them come here legally. They simply do not leave when it's time to go. What communist boogeyman are you talking about...lol...those poor Mexicans aren't communists...lmao....Trump and his neocon puppet masters are more commies than they are...lol

[tfurrh]

https://youtu.be/_cwcETeIUUg

[Swordsmyth]

This country was founded upon open borders. It in itself does not feed the police state...lol....policy and populace inaction feeds a police state. A wall will ensure you have no place to go.
This country has steadily lost liberty because of the excessive immigration allowed by open borders since the beginning, it does feed the police state and it always has.

[106459]

And for the record, if walls are effective at disallowing passage from the inside out, then they have to be just as effective at keeping people from passing from the outside in. That is something we need to recognize.

Lmfao. I notice how this was glossed right over. "Yeah, yeah, walls never work. Except for when they do."


Why not ask these guys how unguarded territorial borders and unbridled immigration of a hostile culture worked out for them?

https://storage.googleapis.com/hippostcard/p/06426170673235617d976d6714c06381-800.jpg


I thought he was saying, "We got where we are by violating nonwhite people's rights. At this point, we have no choice but to keep doing that forever or else it's all going to come crashing down on us."

Yeah, that has to be the absolute stupidest conclusion you could have possibly come to. But I've had the misfortune of reading your posts many times, and I would expect nothing less.

So, your own analysis acknowledges that people are going to violate other people's rights. And that lands were lost, essentially forever. At least centuries you and your grand-kids will never live to see.

-But, for some reason, we're doing just fine. Despite the fact that American Indians lost everything, we should never have to worry about that.

-No, indeed, the true moral of the story is that, somehow, despite no one being alive from that time period, I am somehow the oppressor, and somehow, they are the oppressed. Of course! How could I have missed that?!

The open borders and free immigration argument is so pathetic. Let's make this simple: let's take away the complexity of the macro scale. Let's take away the bundled mess of a resource that's a human being. Let's just do something that can clearly only be seen as an unadulterated positive. Let's give someone a hundred million dollars -- *they win the lottery*. Wow! That's awesome!! That could never go wrong, right?! I mean, jesus, you could pay for college, own your home, never worry about starving; everything under the sun. And yet, people still fuck that up. How the fuck do you do that? Literally, even if winning was a bad thing, all you had to do was give it away , and they couldn't even do that. And that's reality.

-So, tell me, even if we agreed that open borders and mass immigration was an uncontested net positive (and we don't), how exactly are you going to argue that it's not going to go horribly wrong anyways? Plenty of reality-crafting, I'm sure.

[Swordsmyth]

A wall will do nothing as most of them come here legally. They simply do not leave when it's time to go.
That's not true but we need to do something about the overstays too.
Stopping visas to countries that have most of the overstays and requiring those we do allow to post a bond that will cover the cost of deportation and a reward should work.




What communist boogeyman are you talking about...lol...those poor Mexicans aren't communists...lmao....Trump and his neocon puppet masters are more commies than they are...lol

LOL

Illegal Migrants Come Here as Ready-made Democrats — Here’s Why (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?533542-Illegal-Migrants-Come-Here-as-Ready-made-Democrats-—-Here’s-Why)

[Swordsmyth]

On the contrary, it's just another step. Walls, cameras, satellites, drones, militarized police force, surveillance, recording every bit of data .....kind of sounds like a prison to me.

All of which are provided with an excuse by the invasion, that's why we need to stop it at the border.

[showpan]

This country has steadily lost liberty because of the excessive immigration allowed by open borders since the beginning, it does feed the police state and it always has.

That is 100% wrong. This country has lost liberties because of inaction by a population still pointing fingers at the wrong people. You blame the mass amounts of people who have come here for your loss of liberty when in fact it has been the policies of elected leaders who's elections have been rigged. It's all smoke and mirrors. Yes, we have an immigration problem. But who do you blame for it...lol....you want to get rid of the illegals and not our president who has hired them...lol...90% of the people making his MAGA hats are latino's...lol

[Philhelm]

This country was founded upon open borders. It in itself does not feed the police state...lol....policy and populace inaction feeds a police state. A wall will ensure you have no place to go.

The U.S. developed from people who, although hailing from different nations, had similar enough cultures to coexist. If the U.S. was colonized by the English, Turks, Indians, and Chinese it likely would have never worked out.

[Philhelm]

On the contrary, it's just another step. Walls, cameras, satellites, drones, militarized police force, surveillance, recording every bit of data .....kind of sounds like a prison to me.

I won't argue against militarized police and the surveillance state, but a border wall isn't going to be the straw that breaks the camels back.

[juleswin]

Walls are merely an obstacle for those wanting to get past them. They will not and never will keep those wanting to enter this country from doing so

Yes, a wall is an obstacle. this is just a statement not an argument. I can tell you that it will keep the majority of the people crossing the border from coming through. Think of a prison wall, it keeps most people in but even as effective as it is, people still and will continue to escape prisons. No wall invented to date can keep everyone in. I don't think the idea was ever to create something impenetrable along the southern border.


On the contrary, meh thinks that wall has a much deeper meaning for those with very sinister intentions for this country. It will ensure that mass amounts of people will not be able to exit. As our cities become less stable and people become more violent towards each other (see divide and conquer) the police state will surely grow into more of a militarized zone just as it has already been doing so over the last 3 decades.

Yes, the wall will prevent a mass of people from leaving through the southern border because that is what walls do. But people can still escape through Canada in mass, the Pacific and Atlantic oceans(maybe not in mass but at a higher rate than the walled southern border). I would start panicking when they start building a wall on the Northern border. Until then, I will see the southern border wall as a device to keep people out.


The neocons (corporate fascists) with their puppet presidents (including Trump) have all but ensured that this nation will never reverse course. They have brainwashed so many into thinking that there are only 2 political parties when in fact they are actually one, that lines have been drawn in the sand and the American people will continue to point fingers at one another. The boiling point is growing near. A wall will ensure that most stay IN like penned up cattle for slaughter. What better way to control the masses than with walls just as Israel does.

I can say that I agree with one thing you said, Trump is a puppet :)

[Swordsmyth]

That is 100% wrong. This country has lost liberties because of inaction by a population still pointing fingers at the wrong people. You blame the mass amounts of people who have come here for your loss of liberty when in fact it has been the policies of elected leaders who's elections have been rigged. It's all smoke and mirrors. Yes, we have an immigration problem. But who do you blame for it...lol....you want to get rid of the illegals and not our president who has hired them...lol...90% of the people making his MAGA hats are latino's...lol

The constant influx of too many people from anti-liberty cultures has cause America to assimilate towards being anti-liberty instead of the immigrants assimilating into liberty, that's a fact and Jefferson warned us about it.

Coolidge knew and that's why he signed a bill to limit immigration and our enemies know that's why they push immigration and why Ted Kennedy pushed through his immigration bill.


You are wrong about the MAGA hats but it also shows that you are a racist who assumes that all latinos are illegals.


Trump's businesses may have hired a few illegals but that's completely irrelevant, he didn't personally hire them.

And you can take your "surrender because it's all rigged" propaganda and smoke it.

[showpan]

The U.S. developed from people who, although hailing from different nations, had similar enough cultures to coexist. If the U.S. was colonized by the English, Turks, Indians, and Chinese it likely would have never worked out.

We can actually all get along, There were thousands of Chinese brought in to build our railroads. The Indians now own most of our convenience stores...lol....people are not born racist either. Under different policies, I believe we all could get along. The US was founded by 2 different sides right from the start. Some wanted to remake us into another England. Others wanted more liberty and freedom. It ended up somewhere in the middle. They also had a cap on immigration that was determined by our economy. Unfortunately corporatism has taken over and our government favors unchecked immigration. They want the cheap labor and a submissive populace. Both sides do. It's not just the dems...lol...Trump is playing good cop bad cop on you

[showpan]

The constant influx of too many people from anti-liberty cultures has cause America to assimilate towards being anti-liberty instead of the immigrants assimilating into liberty, that's a fact and Jefferson warned us about it.

Coolidge knew and that's why he signed a bill to limit immigration and our enemies know that's why they push immigration and why Ted Kennedy pushed through his immigration bill.


You are wrong about the MAGA hats but it also shows that you are a racist who assumes that all latinos are illegals.


Trump's businesses may have hired a few illegals but that's completely irrelevant, he didn't personally hire them.

And you can take your "surrender because it's all rigged" propaganda and smoke it.


First of all I have never surrendered, I only point out that you are wrong in your assumptions and assertions on what is wrong with this country. You ARE part of the problem and youtube vids prove that MAGA hats are in fact manufactured using immigrants.....nothing at all was said about illegals. Again, typical neocon troll tactic

[Swordsmyth]

We can actually all get along, There were thousands of Chinese brought in to build our railroads. The Indians now own most of our convenience stores...lol....people are not born racist either. Under different policies, I believe we all could get along. The US was founded by 2 different sides right from the start. Some wanted to remake us into another England. Others wanted more liberty and freedom. It ended up somewhere in the middle. They also had a cap on immigration that was determined by our economy. Unfortunately corporatism has taken over and our government favors unchecked immigration. They want the cheap labor and a submissive populace. Both sides do. It's not just the dems...lol...Trump is playing good cop bad cop on you
We can't all get along unless everybody assimilates into liberty and that doesn't happen when there are no limits to immigration, it's not about race, it's about culture.
You can't just get along with people who don't want to leave you alone.

[Swordsmyth]

First of all I have never surrendered, I only point out that you are wrong in your assumptions and assertions on what is wrong with this country.
You are telling us to surrender.



You ARE part of the problem and youtube vids prove that MAGA hats are in fact manufactured using immigrants.....nothing at all was said about illegals. Again, typical neocon troll tactic
You are the one playing stupid games, if you weren't assuming that they were illegals then what does their race have to do with anything?

[showpan]

I agree 100% with the fact that unchecked immigration is bad for our economy, our future and our liberties. BUT...lol...they are not the cause. They are just the effect. Most of them just want to make a better life for the families just as we all do. Our problem is with 95% of our government that has allowed this and encouraged it to happen. It's both parties (actually they are one party disguised as 2...lol) Building walls and rounding them up is much too late in the game for that. I wonder how many people in this forum will still vote for Trump and the republicans under the false pretense of the lesser of 2 evils when they are both equally evil....lol

[showpan]

You are telling us to surrender.



You are the one playing stupid games, if you weren't assuming that they were illegals then what does their race have to do with anything?

Quote me anything I said that implies to surrender or illegals.....don't ever tell me what I assume when I assume nothing, thanks and good luck

[showpan]

How ironic that we have a president claiming to care about an immigration problem and the hires 90% immigrants in his MAGA hat factory....at least those ones made here and not the ones made in China with our unfair trade agreements......the smoke and mirrors are monumental

[showpan]

Just one passing thought on the subject of walls and I'm done with this thread. Anyone who supports using my tax dollars to build some colossus monument to their ego can kiss my ass. Anyone who supports stealing someones land in order to build it is not right in the head. I'm not down for illegal searches of my residence or vehicles either. Nor do I want more military personnel patrolling this country. I don't want more drones, cameras, and surveillance either. The ONLY way to stop the immigration problem is to go after the employer who hires them and a government who enables them. A wall has nothing to do with liberty at all....a wall and all of your increased security is ANTI-liberty.

[Swordsmyth]

I agree 100% with the fact that unchecked immigration is bad for our economy, our future and our liberties. BUT...lol...they are not the cause. They are just the effect. Most of them just want to make a better life for the families just as we all do. Our problem is with 95% of our government that has allowed this and encouraged it to happen. It's both parties (actually they are one party disguised as 2...lol) Building walls and rounding them up is much too late in the game for that. I wonder how many people in this forum will still vote for Trump and the republicans under the false pretense of the lesser of 2 evils when they are both equally evil....lol
Trump is not the lesser of two evils, he is the least of all possible goods and the only current hope for turning things around.
Immigrants/invaders are and have been the attack dog used to destroy liberty and warp our culture by our ruling elite, we must deal with them before we can get to those who use them as tools against us.

[Swordsmyth]

How ironic that we have a president claiming to care about an immigration problem and the hires 90% immigrants in his MAGA hat factory....at least those ones made here and not the ones made in China with our unfair trade agreements......the smoke and mirrors are monumental
He's not hiring them and I doubt it's his factory.

[Anti Federalist]

Taken out of context. He says he used to say that. Then he goes into talking about removing the incentives instead. Here is what he really said in that interview:

That time is now.


REP. PAUL: And, and during that campaign, I remember I got into trouble with Libertarians because I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently.

How is that taken "out of context"?

Did he not say that?

Did he not get flack from the "no borders, no walls, no USA at all" wing of libertarians?

He very well may have changed his mind, as is his right, God knows I have on this issue.

But that does not mean it was "out of context" or twisted.

It's clear statement of fact, of what he said, and the flak he took for it.

[Anti Federalist]

Walls are merely an obstacle for those wanting to get past them. They will not and never will keep those wanting to enter this country from doing so. On the contrary, meh thinks that wall has a much deeper meaning for those with very sinister intentions for this country. It will ensure that mass amounts of people will not be able to exit. As our cities become less stable and people become more violent towards each other (see divide and conquer) the police state will surely grow into more of a militarized zone just as it has already been doing so over the last 3 decades. The neocons (corporate fascists) with their puppet presidents (including Trump) have all but ensured that this nation will never reverse course. They have brainwashed so many into thinking that there are only 2 political parties when in fact they are actually one, that lines have been drawn in the sand and the American people will continue to point fingers at one another. The boiling point is growing near. A wall will ensure that most stay IN like penned up cattle for slaughter. What better way to control the masses than with walls just as Israel does.

If walls are useless to keep people out, why do they become completely effective at keeping people in?

Don't get me wrong now, I've said a a million times, if anybody in government was serious about quelling this invasion, there would be divisions of Marines and Army artillery backed up with Unorganized militia manning every foot of border.

[Anti Federalist]

This country was founded upon open borders. It in itself does not feed the police state...lol....policy and populace inaction feeds a police state. A wall will ensure you have no place to go.

The most libertarian president ever, Calvin Coolidge, signed the most restrictive immigration act the country had seen.

It was in place until 1965, which is, by no coincidence, one of the major reasons when and why this whole mess started falling apart.

[brushfire]

Any of you have a front door on your house?

What good would your front door do you if donnay was actively offering intruders sanctuary, free medical, free food, free education, and plenty of incentive to break in while you're under way?

I know donnay would never do that, but your politicians are - while you're earning money to pay your taxes, they're giving them away to people who cross rivers, scale walls, dig tunnels, ride rails, cross deserts, etc. How many of these illegals have been shot on the US border? What if Israel turned in their guns and used free sh!t and sanctuary to battle illegal border crossers? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/middleeast/gaza-protests-palestinians-us-embassy.html How would that wall work out for them then?

The only effective means to address the illegal immigrant issue is to stop giving them free sh!t - remove the incentive and they wont come here.

[Swordsmyth]

What good would your front door do you if donnay was actively offering intruders sanctuary, free medical, free food, free education, and plenty of incentive to break in while you're under way?

I know donnay would never do that, but your politicians are - while you're earning money to pay your taxes, they're giving them away to people who cross rivers, scale walls, dig tunnels, ride rails, cross deserts, etc. How many of these illegals have been shot on the US border? What if Israel turned in their guns and used free sh!t and sanctuary to battle illegal border crossers? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/middleeast/gaza-protests-palestinians-us-embassy.html How would that wall work out for them then?

The only effective means to address the illegal immigrant issue is to stop giving them free sh!t - remove the incentive and they wont come here.
We need to stop the welfare but it isn't the only incentive, prosperity is the main incentive.
We need to secure the border too.

Not giving away free stuff is no substitute for a door.

[brushfire]

We need to stop the welfare but it isn't the only incentive, prosperity is the main incentive.
We need to secure the border too.

Not giving away free stuff is no substitute for a door.

But offering a free pot of gold behind that door is essentially an invitation to break it down. Also, bear in mind, you're tasking the very people who brought you hits such as the TSA and the USPS to bring you security... Even if they gave a sh!t about your security, they're incompetence is sure to get the better of them.

[Anti Federalist]

What good would your front door do you if donnay was actively offering intruders sanctuary, free medical, free food, free education, and plenty of incentive to break in while you're under way?

I know donnay would never do that, but your politicians are - while you're earning money to pay your taxes, they're giving them away to people who cross rivers, scale walls, dig tunnels, ride rails, cross deserts, etc. How many of these illegals have been shot on the US border? What if Israel turned in their guns and used free sh!t and sanctuary to battle illegal border crossers? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/middleeast/gaza-protests-palestinians-us-embassy.html How would that wall work out for them then?

The only effective means to address the illegal immigrant issue is to stop giving them free sh!t - remove the incentive and they wont come here.

That is part of the solution.

When Calvin Coolidge signed the Immigration Act, it was to get a handle on a similar wave of migrants.

And there was no federal welfare state at all.

This is not organic: it is a well organized and well carried out invasion tactic of Fifth Gen warfare.

[Swordsmyth]

But offering a free pot of gold behind that door is essentially an invitation to break it down. Also, bear in mind, you're tasking the very people who brought you hits such as the TSA and the USPS to bring you security... Even if they gave a sh!t about your security, they're incompetence is sure to get the better of them.
We don't have any other options right now, we have to work on all aspects of the problem at once.

[Anti Federalist]

But offering a free pot of gold behind that door is essentially an invitation to break it down. Also, bear in mind, you're tasking the very people who brought you hits such as the TSA and the USPS to bring you security... Even if they gave a sh!t about your security, they're incompetence is sure to get the better of them.

You'll get no argument from on that...clearly nobody in the fedgov has any desire to address this issue properly, seriously or has any real incentive to stop it.

[PAF]

This is not organic: it is a well organized and well carried out invasion tactic of Fifth Gen warfare Fourth Industrial Revolution.

You almost hit the nail on the head. I fixed it for you ^

Once people see behind the curtain and not try to justify it they will understand the true intention of the wall - and it ain't to keep folks out.

[showpan]

If walls are useless to keep people out, why do they become completely effective at keeping people in?

.

Prison walls do a hell of a job...lol...dam it, stop suckering me back into this thread...lol

[brushfire]

we have to work on all aspects of the problem at once.

This is really the issue. Ron Paul has his mission of education - even he recognized that the people will not mobilize until the issues lead to empty stomachs. The priority is to make people understand that the problems they will experience are caused by the very people who will be offering them solutions.

To use prison survival tactic, I see the biggest guy in the room right now is the welfare state. Without the welfare state, its harder for government to maintain the level of control and overreach they are enjoying. With the debt and likely collapse of the dollar, that will be the one to attack. With the welfare state intact, the breadlines will form, and the government will use the crisis they created to extend their control through welfare dependency. History clearly shows how this plays out.

[Superfluous Man]

How is that taken "out of context"?

It depends how you use it. If you quote that in order to pretend he supports your views, or that he was using the word "invasion" to include peaceful people coming here to work so that he would support policies restricting the numbers of people who could do so or the building of a border wall, then you would be taking it out of context. If you quote it to suggest that he thinks the immigration we see today, legal or illegal, is an invasion, like you do, then that also would be taking it out of context.


That time is now.


Maybe according to you. But it would be a lie to say that it is according to Ron Paul. He's been pretty clear and consistent in saying it isn't.

[Anti Federalist]

It depends how you use it. If you quote that in order to pretend he supports your views, or that he was using the word "invasion" to include peaceful people coming here to work so that he would support policies restricting the numbers of people who could do so or the building of a border wall, then you would be taking it out of context. If you quote it to suggest that he thinks the immigration we see today, legal or illegal, is an invasion, like you do, then that also would be taking it out of context.

Just a question of degrees.

Clearly, he thinks, or thought, that at some point, "peaceful immigration" becomes longer peaceful nor immigration, but in fact becomes an invasion.


Maybe according to you. But it would be a lie to say that it is according to Ron Paul. He's been pretty clear and consistent in saying it isn't.

Again, simply a matter of disagreeing on amount.

Or, I dunno, maybe he's joined the "no borders, no walls, no USA at all" crowd.

If that's the case, I'm going to have to disagree with him.

[Superfluous Man]

Just a question of degrees.

Clearly, he thinks, or thought, that at some point, "peaceful immigration" becomes longer peaceful nor immigration, but in fact becomes an invasion.


I would not assume that he thinks that peaceful immigration is ever an invasion. If it "becomes" an invasion, then that is by being unpeaceful and engaging in acts of violence, and that it is those violent parties who are invading, and not any other nonviolent ones.

You want to pretend it's about the number of immigrants. And for you it may be. But it would be dishonest to say that that's Ron Paul's position. And nothing in what you quoted suggests it is or ever was.

[Anti Federalist]

I would not assume that he thinks that peaceful immigration is ever an invasion. If it "becomes" an invasion, then that is by being unpeaceful and engaging in acts of violence, and that it is those violent parties who are invading, and not any other nonviolent ones.

You want to pretend it's about the number of immigrants. And for you it may be. But it would be dishonest to say that that's Ron Paul's position. And nothing in what you quoted suggests it is or ever was.

That's disingenuous in the extreme.

You're actually suggesting that he meant, when he spoke of immigration becoming an invasion, he was actually speaking of migrants with rifles, tanks, air cover and artillery?

Because if you are suggesting chucking rocks, throwing punches, pushing shoving and so on, well, we already got that.

[Superfluous Man]

You're actually suggesting that he meant, when he spoke of immigration becoming an invasion, he was actually speaking of migrants with rifles, tanks, air cover and artillery?

Of course, among other things. He's been quite clear that he wants as many as want to come here to work to be able to. That's the natural way to take his words. You only take them differently because you read your own view into them.


Because if you are suggesting chucking rocks, throwing punches, pushing shoving and so on, well, we already got that.

And we have every right to use force against the individuals doing that, regardless of where they come from. But that has no bearing on policies applied to those who aren't doing that.

And what would be disingenuous in the extreme would be to pretend that you only mean to defend against or punish the individuals committing those acts if your actual intent is to prevent other peaceful immigrants who want to come here and work from being able to do so.

[Anti Federalist]

And what would be disingenuous in the extreme would be to pretend that you only mean to defend against those acts if your actual intent is to prevent other peaceful immigrants who want to come here and work from being able to do so.

I don't know about that, I think I've made it very clear numerous times, that this is Fifth Gen warfare invasion, where the only weapons are numbers and damnable pathos.

[PAF]

I don't know about that, I think I've made it very clear numerous times, that this is Fifth Gen warfare invasion Fourth Industrial Revolution where the only weapons are numbers and damnable pathos.

Fixed it again for you. Follow the money and everything will make perfect sense.

[Swordsmyth]

Of course, among other things. He's been quite clear that he wants as many as want to come here to work to be able to. That's the natural way to take his words. You only take them differently because you read your own view into them.



And we have every right to use force against the individuals doing that, regardless of where they come from. But that has no bearing on policies applied to those who aren't doing that.

And what would be disingenuous in the extreme would be to pretend that you only mean to defend against or punish the individuals committing those acts if your actual intent is to prevent other peaceful immigrants who want to come here and work from being able to do so.
The invaders use force against us, they use the force of our own government against us to conquer and plunder us.

It's an invasion.

[Swordsmyth]

I don't know about that, I think I've made it very clear numerous times, that this is Fifth Gen warfare invasion, where the only weapons are numbers and damnable pathos.
Their weapons are our own armed government agents who carry out the policies they vote for.

The leftarians would literally try to tell the ancient Britons that the Saxons weren't invaders because Vortigern invited them.

[Ender]

I'm saying that the native Indian population, because they could not, would not organize to defend their territory, defend their culture, defend their family and defend their lives, were supplanted and displaced by a culture and people hostile to them, and because of that they became second class citizens, wards of the state and little more than prisoners on the lands they once called their own.

Happens all the time in human history.

I'm hoping that we could find the courage to defend ourselves against invasion.

But I'm pretty convinced it's a lost cause...the people that should be rising up to defend themselves are too stupid, too poisoned by self loathing propaganda, too soft, too corrupt, too cosmopolitan and too world weary to do so.

And that's why the invaders will win.

And why, for all it's warts, one of the last bastions of limited government, property rights, Western enlightenment philosophy and individual liberty, will die.

The problems facing us have nothing to do with "invaders"- this is all a ruse to take everyone's eye off TPTB.

[Swordsmyth]

The problems facing us have nothing to do with "invaders"- this is all a ruse to take everyone's eye off TPTB.

That is completely untrue, TPTB use the invaders as their primary weapon and have for a long time.

[Stratovarious]

Of course, among other things. He's been quite clear that he wants as many as want to come here to work to be able to. That's the natural way to take his words. You only take them differently because you read your own view into them.



And we have every right to use force against the individuals doing that, regardless of where they come from. But that has no bearing on policies applied to those who aren't doing that.

And what would be disingenuous in the extreme would be to pretend that you only mean to defend against or punish the individuals committing those acts if your actual intent is to prevent other peaceful immigrants who want to come here and work from being able to do so.

Why do you lock your doors
Why do you have locks on your doors
Why do you have doors at all , isn't that against your natural law of
the right to travel, go where we wish , unfettered, unencumbered access to
wherever one might wish to go, or are you being disingenuous and
pretending that you only mean to keep out the 'bad people' ?

[Ender]

That is completely untrue, TPTB use the invaders as their primary weapon and have for a long time.

TPTB use everyone-

WAKE UP.

[Swordsmyth]

TPTB use everyone-

WAKE UP.
They don't use me.
I would believe they use you.

The invaders are their PRIMARY weapon.
Excessive immigration legal or illegal has been their primary weapon for a very long time, we can't educate or assimilate people as fast as they can come so liberty dies by being voted into extinction.

[showpan]

They don't use me.
I would believe they use you.

The invaders are their PRIMARY weapon.
Excessive immigration legal or illegal has been their primary weapon for a very long time, we can't educate or assimilate people as fast as they can come so liberty dies by being voted into extinction.


They are not invaders....lol...they have been invited. The primary weapon since before this country was even founded has been psychological. Soon after we became a nation, Hamilton and the federalists would have remade us into Britain II had it not been for Jefferson, Adams, etc who had to start their own newspapers and hold meetings to counter them since the newspapers at the time were backed by the federalist. It's very much the same situation we have today but on a much grander scale. They also have over 100 years of experience in lying to the public in order to garner support for whatever agenda they set. The banana republic wars proved that they could get away with it. They used TV, books, newspapers and now social media to get people to believe whatever they want. Trump won this last election with their help. He paid them millions to bombard peoples social media with crooked Hillary memes, illegal invaders, Muslim threats, fake news stories....lol....it worked because they used peoples fears and he won the election. It is going to happen again. It's happening right now. Ironic isn't it? Trump the purveyor of fake news. While Clintons being crooked was not all that fake...lol...they are ALL crooked so it is very misleading. As much as I hate to say this, free market has been one of our downfalls. The mainstream media, tv and radio are all mostly owned by them and they have large monopolies on persuasion now.They use our social media against us and it's not going to end. They have only caught one company doing this only because of a whistle blower. The ones they do not know about are still at it, a dozen have probably taken their place. Data mining and psychological warfare is their primary weapon. Poindexters dream and big brother is our reality now.

[Ender]

They are not invaders....lol...they have been invited. The primary weapon since before this country was even founded has been psychological. Soon after we became a nation, Hamilton and the federalists would have remade us into Britain II had it not been for Jefferson, Adams, etc who had to start their own newspapers and hold meetings to counter them since the newspapers at the time were backed by the federalist. It's very much the same situation we have today but on a much grander scale. They also have over 100 years of experience in lying to the public in order to garner support for whatever agenda they set. The banana republic wars proved that they could get away with it. They used TV, books, newspapers and now social media to get people to believe whatever they want. Trump won this last election with their help. He paid them millions to bombard peoples social media with crooked Hillary memes, illegal invaders, Muslim threats, fake news stories....lol....it worked because they used peoples fears and he won the election. It is going to happen again. It's happening right now. Ironic isn't it? Trump the purveyor of fake news. While Clintons being crooked was not all that fake...lol...they are ALL crooked so it is very misleading. As much as I hate to say this, free market has been one of our downfalls. The mainstream media, tv and radio are all mostly owned by them and they have large monopolies on persuasion now.They use our social media against us and it's not going to end. They have only caught one company doing this only because of a whistle blower. The ones they do not know about are still at it, a dozen have probably taken their place. Data mining and psychological warfare is their primary weapon. Poindexters dream and big brother is our reality now.

Pretty much- just add public schools into the spreading of lying propaganda.

[Ender]

They don't use me.
I would believe they use you.

The invaders are their PRIMARY weapon.
Excessive immigration legal or illegal has been their primary weapon for a very long time, we can't educate or assimilate people as fast as they can come so liberty dies by being voted into extinction.

LOL- says the biggest spreader of hate & fear on the forum.

[Ender]

Why do you lock your doors
Why do you have locks on your doors
Why do you have doors at all , isn't that against your natural law of
the right to travel, go where we wish , unfettered, unencumbered access to
wherever one might wish to go, or are you being disingenuous and
pretending that you only mean to keep out the 'bad people' ?

NO.

Natural law includes private property.

[nobody's_hero]

Pretty much- just add public schools into the spreading of lying propaganda.

NONE of the public schools are teaching anything about controlling immigration, illegal or otherwise.

Let that sink in.

Take about 5 steps back from the line. Look around you. See who is around you. Think about it.

[Zippyjuan]

NONE of the public schools are teaching anything about controlling immigration, illegal or otherwise.

Let that sink in.

Take about 5 steps back from the line. Look around you. See who is around you. Think about it.

Is that a hot subject at private schools? Do all of them teach it?

[Anti Federalist]

The problems facing us have nothing to do with "invaders"- this is all a ruse to take everyone's eye off TPTB.

I disagree.

So would the Cherokee and Lakota and Apache and Penobscot and Pottawatomie...well, you get my point.

[Anti Federalist]

TPTB use everyone-

WAKE UP.

Right, I understand that and don't disagree.

Not relevant right now, as the invaders swarm in.

Arguing about whether it was rock or an iceberg that poked a hole in the hull and is causing the ship to sink is pointless.

Sound the general alarm, time for damage control.

[Ender]

Right, I understand that and don't disagree.

Not relevant right now, as the invaders swarm in.

Arguing about whether it was rock or an iceberg that poked a hole in the hull and is causing the ship to sink is pointless.

Sound the general alarm, time for damage control.

More gov ain't gonna fix problems caused by gov.

[Ender]

NONE of the public schools are teaching anything about controlling immigration, illegal or otherwise.

Let that sink in.

Take about 5 steps back from the line. Look around you. See who is around you. Think about it.

EVERYTHING


IN PUBLIC SCHOOL IS A LIE OR PROPAGANDA- LET THAT SINK IN.

[Swordsmyth]

LOL- says the biggest spreader of hate & fear on the forum.
Truth is a force of nature.

[Swordsmyth]

EVERYTHING


IN PUBLIC SCHOOL IS A LIE OR PROPAGANDA- LET THAT SINK IN.
YES.

And it is all on the side of excessive and uncontrolled immigration.

LET THAT SINK IN.

[Swordsmyth]

More gov ain't gonna fix problems caused by gov.
This problem was caused by a lack of government.

[Swordsmyth]

NO.

Natural law includes private property.
It also includes territory and groups.

[Anti Federalist]

More gov ain't gonna fix problems caused by gov.

Right, which is why government handouts and welfare should be eliminated, to aid in controlling this problem.

[juleswin]

EVERYTHING


IN PUBLIC SCHOOL IS A LIE OR PROPAGANDA- LET THAT SINK IN.

Are you being hyperbolic again or are you being serious?


More gov ain't gonna fix problems caused by gov.

Just like how you cannot fight fire with more fire right?

[Stratovarious]

NO.

Natural law includes private property.

How is it that Natural Law says (to you) that you should have right to property
while a group of like minded individuals can't ?

[Swordsmyth]

How is it that Natural Law says (to you) that you should have right to property
while a group of like minded individuals can't ?
Nature is full of packs and herds.

[Stratovarious]

Nature is full of packs and herds.
Excellent point.

[tfurrh]

Nature is full of packs and herds.

And corporations....corporations are people too

[nobody's_hero]

EVERYTHING


IN PUBLIC SCHOOL IS A LIE OR PROPAGANDA- LET THAT SINK IN.

I don't disagree.

YES.

And it is all on the side of excessive and uncontrolled immigration.

LET THAT SINK IN.

^he got my point.

If you're standing on the same side of TPTB, even for different reasons, does it really matter how noble your intentions are if the outcome is the same?

I firmly believe TPTB DO NOT want this wall, or anything that will cut off the flow of reinforcements for their cause. If their master plan is to build a giant cage to box us all in, they are WELL within their capabilities to do so and would have done so by now. If that's the plan, they're surely dragging their g-d damned feet about it—so I cannot, at this point, believe that is the end-game.

Now, libertarians do not want this wall, for libertarian reasons, though, that doesn't really matter in the end. TPTB welcome your support all the same.

[pcosmar]

Walls can't even secure a Maximum Security Prison..

And I don't want to live in a Walled Prison again.

[invisible]

I don't disagree.


^he got my point.

If you're standing on the same side of TPTB, even for different reasons, does it really matter how noble your intentions are if the outcome is the same?

I firmly believe TPTB DO NOT want this wall, or anything that will cut off the flow of reinforcements for their cause. If their master plan is to build a giant cage to box us all in, they are WELL within their capabilities to do so and would have done so by now. If that's the plan, they're surely dragging their g-d damned feet about it—so I cannot, at this point, believe that is the end-game.

Now, libertarians do not want this wall, for libertarian reasons, though, that doesn't really matter in the end. TPTB welcome your support all the same.

Ron Paul opposes the wall. Any argument in support of the wall, even this one, is just more direct opposition to Ron Paul.

[nobody's_hero]

Ron Paul opposes the wall. Any argument in support of the wall, even this one, is just more direct opposition to Ron Paul.

When they put us on reservations, I want first pick of a casino spot.

[r3volution 3.0]

That's easy to solve, pay for it by cutting welfare spending.

SNAP handouts alone came to over $70 billion last year.

That would build a lotta wall.

I'm sure the liberty-loving Americans will cut their own welfare benefits right after the wall is built.

Course, in the past they've always voted to increase their welfare benefits.

But that was the lack of the wall, I suppose; "I hate socialism, but, then again, there's no wall. Socialism it is!"

Yessir, build that wall and the welfare state shall crumble.

[Swordsmyth]

I'm sure the liberty-loving Americans will cut their own welfare benefits right after the wall is built.

Course, in the past they've always voted to increase their welfare benefits.

But that was the lack of the wall, I suppose; "I hate socialism, but, then again, there's no wall. Socialism it is!"

Yessir, build that wall and the welfare state shall crumble.
The wall will prevent it from becoming worse and many Americans do vote to get rid of it, Trump just moved to dump 3Million people off.

[r3volution 3.0]

The wall will prevent it from becoming worse and many Americans do vote to get rid of it, Trump just moved to dump 3Million people off.

If the wall does get built and all the immigrants do get deported, the silver lining will be watching the reaction from you people when essentially nothing changes and the welfare state (and every other aspect of the state) keeps growing (nevermind the part you'd have to have already grown to accomplish your glorious reforms), but then again I suppose you'd find some new excuse. Witches perhaps.

[Swordsmyth]

If the wall does get built and all the immigrants do get deported, the silver lining will be watching the reaction from you people when essentially nothing changes and the welfare state (and every other aspect of the state) keeps growing (nevermind the part you'd have to have already grown to accomplish your glorious reforms), but then again I suppose you'd find some new excuse. Witches perhaps.
Getting to shove reality down your throat will be almost as glorious as the reforms we will enact once the communist invaders are removed but even if we don't move things backward we will stop them from going full retard commie like Mao's china, on the other hand it would almost be worth letting it happen in order to get to watch you twist and squirm trying to claim it would have happened anyway as the barbarians began the round ups and death camps.

[showpan]

This thread is still active...lol....it's hard to imagine a socialist wall built by corporate fascists generates any support at all from a "Liberty" forum.

[invisible]

This thread is still active...lol....it's hard to imagine a socialist wall built by corporate fascists generates any support at all from a "Liberty" forum.

It doesn't. Those supporting such direct opposition to Ron Paul is simply astroturf, created by a small handful of propagandists and their sock puppets that have driven off most of the genuine Ron Paul supporters here. They even openly admit their agenda of force feeding this place, and how much they enjoy what they are paid to do:

Getting to shove reality down your throat will be almost as glorious
It's all about force for them, just about everything they say is about power and forcing someone to do something.


barbarians began the round ups and death camps
They even know how barbaric trump's policies of mass arrests and concentration camps for immigrants are, but they continue to shyll for their Authoritarian Idol, and outright refuse to denounce him. Instead they will simply attempt to paint anyone who opposes them as "socialists", which is nothing less than continuing to oppose and attack Ron Paul.

[PAF]

It doesn't. Those supporting such direct opposition to Ron Paul is simply astroturf, created by a small handful of propagandists and their sock puppets that have driven off most of the genuine Ron Paul supporters here. They even openly admit their agenda of force feeding this place, and how much they enjoy what they are paid to do:

It's all about force for them, just about everything they say is about power and forcing someone to do something.


They even know how barbaric trump's policies of mass arrests and concentration camps for immigrants are, but they continue to shyll for their Authoritarian Idol, and outright refuse to denounce him. Instead they will simply attempt to paint anyone who opposes them as "socialists", which is nothing less than continuing to oppose and attack Ron Paul.


Out of + REP so I owe you one.

Follow the Money and one will see how most things are manufactured, and just who is actually profiting by it. The government credit card does not grow for nothing.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kod1nIxteWQ

[Anti Federalist]

I'm sure the liberty-loving Americans will cut their own welfare benefits right after the wall is built.

Course, in the past they've always voted to increase their welfare benefits.

But that was the lack of the wall, I suppose; "I hate socialism, but, then again, there's no wall. Socialism it is!"

Yessir, build that wall and the welfare state shall crumble.

Well, isn't that the way to stop migrant invasion?

Cutting out the handouts?

[r3volution 3.0]

Well, isn't that the way to stop migrant invasion?

Cutting out the handouts?

I'm all for cutting any handout at any time (for reasons unrelated to immigration).

My point though is that the welfare state will keep growing regardless of immigration policy.

As I was saying to SS earlier, you fellows will learn this hard lesson if you ever manage to get the immigration restrictions you desire.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

They know that. That's the intent.

If TPTB want a wall, then why are they taking so long to build it?

[Son_of_Liberty90]

Well, isn't that the way to stop migrant invasion?

Cutting out the handouts?

Cutting off the flow of free stuff would certainly stop motivating them to break the law and sneak over the border

[Superfluous Man]

Cutting off the flow of free stuff would certainly stop motivating them to break the law and sneak over the border

No it wouldn't. Just like it doesn't stop the rest of us from breaking the laws we break every day.

Now repealing unjust laws might do something to increase respect for laws on the other hand.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

No it wouldn't. Just like it doesn't stop the rest of us from breaking the laws we break every day.

Now repealing unjust laws might do something to increase respect for laws on the other hand.

Without the promise of free stuff, why would they come? If theyre fleeing north from South American countries, why not go and stay in Mexico?

[Superfluous Man]

Without the promise of free stuff, why would they come? If theyre fleeing north from South American countries, why not go and stay in Mexico?

Most come to work. I'm not sure how easy it is for foreigners to immigrate to and work in Mexico. I've heard it's more difficult. And I'm not sure how desirable that is compared to coming to America. But at least a considerable number of people consider America the preferable option.

Eliminating welfare programs would do little to decrease incentive to immigrate here. In fact, I would expect the resulting economic boom to have the exact opposite effect.

[TheCount]

If TPTB want a wall, then why are they taking so long to build it?

I said that the police state is the intent, not the wall.

With each new bogeyman that they invent, the easily frightened and the true believers agree to give up a little more of their freedom.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

Most come to work. I'm not sure how easy it is for foreigners to immigrate to and work in Mexico. I've heard it's more difficult. And I'm not sure how desirable that is compared to coming to America. But at least a considerable number of people consider America the preferable option.

Eliminating welfare programs would do little to decrease incentive to immigrate here. In fact, I would expect the resulting economic boom to have the exact opposite effect.

Why cant they follow the law, learn English and immigrate legally like other naturalized immigrants? Its not easy and takes awhile, but its entirely doable.

[Superfluous Man]

Why cant they follow the law, learn English and immigrate legally like other naturalized immigrants? Its not easy and takes awhile, but its entirely doable.

For most it's not doable over any time frame, which is why they don't.

Would you support changing the law to lift limits on the numbers of people who can immigrate here from any country so that it would be possible for them to come legally?

Also, I'm not sure why you referred to "naturalized" immigrants or to learning English. Neither naturalization nor language have any relevance to the discussion up to this point.

[invisible]

Why cant they follow the law, learn English and immigrate legally like other naturalized immigrants? Its not easy and takes awhile, but its entirely doable.

A very good question. Most of them do learn english, or at least try to. Living in an immigrant community, I see this everywhere. Many will apologize to me for their english not being perfect (or even good), or for not knowing a particular word for what they are trying to say. As a typical example, I was once introduced by someone I know to a group of their coworkers. I greeted them all in spanish, their eyes suddenly got real wide, and one of them asked if I spoke spanish. My response was "a little, and I want to learn". The conversation immediately switched from spanish to english, with each and every one of them talking about how they are also attempting to learn to speak english as a second language. They know very well that they will get further and be more successful in our country if they can speak english. Of course, in some places, it is possible to live your entire life without knowing a word of english (I can go about my everyday life for days, without hearing a word of english spoken, where I live), and there will always be some who don't bother to make the effort, these people are a small minority.

Our broken immigration system has made it all but impossible to follow the law. When faced with wait times measured in years, being tracked and spied on, and being subjected to biometrics, our laws have made it much easier to simply hop the border or overstay a visa, and simply disappear into an immigrant community where it is easy to find work off the books for cash, and a "papers, please" mentality simply doesn't exist. The system is in desparate need of reform, and that is exactly one of the things that Ron Paul campaigned on, he understood that to eliminate illegal immigration, it needs to be made easier for anyone to come here to work and contribute to the economy, without immediately extending the benefits of citizenship. When the laws provide more incentive to break than obey them, it's no wonder that people will choose to break them.

[Zippyjuan]

Without the promise of free stuff, why would they come? If theyre fleeing north from South American countries, why not go and stay in Mexico?

Illegal immigrants don't get "frees stuff" from the Federal Government (some states may offer them some benefits). They aren't eligible for any Federal aid programs like Food Stamps (SNAP), Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. Legal immigrants aren't eligible until after they are in the country for at least five years. They want jobs.

Ironically, tightening our border led to more illegal immigrants in the country. Workers used to come, work for a few months, and go home with the money they earned to their families. As crossing became more difficult, they quit going home (as often if at all) so they could continue to work. When they missed their families, they tried to bring them up here with them.

[jmdrake]

Any of you have a front door on your house?

Any of you try to put a fence around your 200 acre farm and expect it to keep out gophers?

Edit: And this "door" you metaphorically speak of requires you to open it and let any asylum seeker in to be processed once he/she steps on the door mat.

[Swordsmyth]

Without the promise of free stuff, why would they come? If theyre fleeing north from South American countries, why not go and stay in Mexico?
It will help but they would come for the prosperity, that's why we need border enforcement.

[Swordsmyth]

Illegal immigrants don't get "frees stuff" from the Federal Government (some states may offer them some benefits). They aren't eligible for any Federal aid programs like Food Stamps (SNAP), Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. Legal immigrants aren't eligible until after they are in the country for at least five years. They want jobs.
That's gabage, they lie and so do liberal government workers and the get welfare.


Ironically, tightening our border led to more illegal immigrants in the country. Workers used to come, work for a few months, and go home with the money they earned to their families. As crossing became more difficult, they quit going home (as often if at all) so they could continue to work. When they missed their families, they tried to bring them up here with them.
Nope, enforcement didn't change that, Reagan's amnesty did.

[Swordsmyth]

For most it's not doable over any time frame, which is why they don't.

Would you support changing the law to lift limits on the numbers of people who can immigrate here from any country so that it would be possible for them to come legally?



Our broken immigration system has made it all but impossible to follow the law. When faced with wait times measured in years, being tracked and spied on, and being subjected to biometrics, our laws have made it much easier to simply hop the border or overstay a visa, and simply disappear into an immigrant community where it is easy to find work off the books for cash, and a "papers, please" mentality simply doesn't exist. The system is in desparate need of reform, and that is exactly one of the things that Ron Paul campaigned on, he understood that to eliminate illegal immigration, it needs to be made easier for anyone to come here to work and contribute to the economy, without immediately extending the benefits of citizenship. When the laws provide more incentive to break than obey them, it's no wonder that people will choose to break them.




You'd just love to import even more communists and give them citizenship so that they would vote at higher rates than they do illegally.

[showpan]

Well, isn't that the way to stop migrant invasion?

Cutting out the handouts?

NO, you must go after the employer first and foremost. Then cut their welfare and end birthright citizenship. if they can't find decent paying jobs, they can't keep having kids and they can't bring their whole family here. We do the same with Indians. We give them loans to buy our convenience stores and hotels, grants to attend our schools and then they bring their whole family here. Nobody has even addressed them and they are mostly Muslim...lol....I know this sounds very racist, which I am not. My country and my family should come first before the rest of the world and it does not anymore. They have made it more difficult for people born here than for those who were not. The welfare state will continue to grow only because they make millions from it and it's easier to control mass populations with it.

[invisible]

You'd just love to import even more communists and give them citizenship so that they would vote at higher rates than they do illegally.

Wow, you're claiming that this would be the effect of Ron Paul's policies? Nothing like direct opposition to Ron Paul, right here on RPF! Why would anyone want to import communists, when they are already here? Let's see, we've already got the concentration camps, the "papers, please" mentality, tracking and spying on everyone, all we need now is a wall! It is those who want to make our country into east germany or north korea that are the communists, not Ron Paul and his supporters.

[Superfluous Man]

NO, you must go after the employer first and foremost.

Serious immigration restrictionists have long known this. This idea of being able to stop them all at the border without needing to track all of our activity within the borders is a total fantasy.

[jmdrake]

NO, you must go after the employer first and foremost. Then cut their welfare and end birthright citizenship. if they can't find decent paying jobs, they can't keep having kids and they can't bring their whole family here. We do the same with Indians. We give them loans to buy our convenience stores and hotels, grants to attend our schools and then they bring their whole family here. Nobody has even addressed them and they are mostly Muslim...lol....I know this sounds very racist, which I am not. My country and my family should come first before the rest of the world and it does not anymore. They have made it more difficult for people born here than for those who were not. The welfare state will continue to grow only because they make millions from it and it's easier to control mass populations with it.

Ummm....no. Indians are mostly Hindu. Pakistanis are mostly Muslim. Most of the Arab owned stores where I live are run by Coptic Christians.

[jmdrake]

You'd just love to import even more communists and give them citizenship so that they would vote at higher rates than they do illegally.


https://youtu.be/k9macFldFzw

[showpan]

Ummm....no. Indians are mostly Hindu. Pakistanis are mostly Muslim. Most of the Arab owned stores where I live are run by Coptic Christians.

I thought so too until I met all the ones that own the stores around me, they are Muslim and it depends on which state they are from. India is also a very diverse nation.

[Superfluous Man]

I thought so too until I met all the ones that own the stores around me, they are Muslim and it depends on which state they are from. India is also a very diverse nation.

There are more Muslims in India than any other nation. But the fact remains that most Indians are not Muslim.

[Anti Federalist]

NO, you must go after the employer first and foremost. Then cut their welfare and end birthright citizenship. if they can't find decent paying jobs, they can't keep having kids and they can't bring their whole family here. We do the same with Indians. We give them loans to buy our convenience stores and hotels, grants to attend our schools and then they bring their whole family here. Nobody has even addressed them and they are mostly Muslim...lol....I know this sounds very racist, which I am not. My country and my family should come first before the rest of the world and it does not anymore. They have made it more difficult for people born here than for those who were not. The welfare state will continue to grow only because they make millions from it and it's easier to control mass populations with it.

I was misunderstanding you then, or this is snark.

If you're serious, I could not agree more.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm all for cutting any handout at any time (for reasons unrelated to immigration).

My point though is that the welfare state will keep growing regardless of immigration policy.

As I was saying to SS earlier, you fellows will learn this hard lesson if you ever manage to get the immigration restrictions you desire.

Will it?

I am not all convinced of that.

There is still a vocal and active constituency that is in favor or "work for welfare", increasing restrictions on handouts and elimination of handouts.

We passed a Work for MedicAid act in NH, that of course was shot down by an Obama federal judge.

That vocal constituency, at the federal level, will be drowned in the unwholesome flood as Texas turns blue and becomes California.

[Anti Federalist]

No it wouldn't. Just like it doesn't stop the rest of us from breaking the laws we break every day.

Now repealing unjust laws might do something to increase respect for laws on the other hand.

Hmmm...so a wall won't stop them, and employer checks like E-Verify won't stop them, and cutting off handouts won't stop them...

How about rescinding the Immigration Act of 1965 and returning to the Immigration Act of 1924 signed by Coolidge?

[r3volution 3.0]

Will it?

I am not all convinced of that.

There is still a vocal and active constituency that is in favor or "work for welfare", increasing restrictions on handouts and elimination of handouts.

We passed a Work for MedicAid act in NH, that of course was shot down by an Obama federal judge.

That vocal constituency, at the federal level, will be drowned in the unwholesome flood as Texas turns blue and becomes California.

It will.

The largest welfare programs have overwhelming, bipartisan support.

The current President campaigned on a promise not to touch them.

They alone, being on autopilot, increasing every year, will ensure that the welfare state grows, without any legislative changes.

And it's likely that there will be legislative changes, to expand existing welfare programs or create new ones: at the behest of natives.

The welfare spending on immigrants is trivial in comparison to what natives have voted for themselves.

As in Europe, native opposition to welfare for immigrants isn't based on opposition to welfare: it's based on opposition to welfare for them.

Most of the anti-immigrant sentiment doesn't even have anything to do with welfare.

Most would be opposed to immigrants if they consumed no welfare.

[Anti Federalist]

It will.

The largest welfare programs have overwhelming, bipartisan support.

The current President campaigned on a promise not to touch them.

They alone, being on autopilot, increasing every year, will ensure that the welfare state grows, without any legislative changes.

And it's likely that there will be legislative changes, to expand existing welfare programs or create new ones: at the behest of natives.

The welfare spending on immigrants is trivial in comparison to what natives have voted for themselves.

As in Europe, any native opposition to welfare for immigrants isn't based on opposition to welfare: it's based on opposition to welfare for them.

So how will importing millions more in favor of the handouts help solve this problem?

[r3volution 3.0]

So how will importing millions more in favor of the handouts help solve this problem?

It won't.

But once you're in the pool, you can't get more wet.

All focusing on immigration does is:

(a) give people an excuse to ignore the real problems

and, (b) potentially add additional injustices to the system.

Welfare-state with free immigration or welfare-state with people in cages?

The former is preferable.

[Swordsmyth]

https://youtu.be/k9macFldFzw

Everything Trump has done has decreased the number of immigrants.

[Swordsmyth]

It won't.

But once you're in the pool, you can't get more wet.

All focusing on immigration does is:

(a) give people an excuse to ignore the real problems

and, (b) potentially add additional injustices to the system.

Welfare-state with free immigration or welfare-state with people in cages?

The former is preferable.
We are standing in the shallow end right now and might be able to walk out, millions more communists will drag us into the deep end and drown us.
If we collapsed right now we might be able to reestablish a limited government after the chaos but millions more communists will ensure that a communist dictatorship will rise from the ashes.

Welfare-state with restricted immigration or welfare-state with people in cages?

The former is preferable.

[Swordsmyth]

Serious immigration restrictionists have long known this. This idea of being able to stop them all at the border without needing to track all of our activity within the borders is a total fantasy.
No it isn't, the only reason we need some internal enforcement until we get rid of the 20-30 Million invaders is because border enforcement and visa approvals have been so lax for so long.

[Swordsmyth]

Wow, you're claiming that this would be the effect of Ron Paul's policies? Nothing like direct opposition to Ron Paul, right here on RPF! Why would anyone want to import communists, when they are already here? Let's see, we've already got the concentration camps, the "papers, please" mentality, tracking and spying on everyone, all we need now is a wall! It is those who want to make our country into east germany or north korea that are the communists, not Ron Paul and his supporters.
That's nice hyperbola but America with border enforcement wouldn't be communist and much as we have too much communism and too many communists we will go full Pol Pot if the invasion isn't stopped.

[r3volution 3.0]

We are standing in the shallow end right now and might be able to walk out, millions more communists will drag us into the deep end and drown us.
If we collapsed right now we might be able to reestablish a limited government after the chaos but millions more communists will ensure that a communist dictatorship will rise from the ashes.

Welfare-state with restricted immigration or welfare-state with people in cages?

The former is preferable.

Believe what you like.

As I said before, you fellows are going to be disappointed with the results (or lack thereof) if you get your immigration restrictions.

[Anti Federalist]

It won't.

But once you're in the pool, you can't get more wet.

All focusing on immigration does is:

(a) give people an excuse to ignore the real problems

and, (b) potentially add additional injustices to the system.

Welfare-state with free immigration or welfare-state with people in cages?

The former is preferable.

OK, so it's not then unreasonable to do what can be done, within constitutional parameters of course, to limit migrants.

If the "cages" you are referring to are those where migrant invaders are being housed, it's not a "cage" in any sense of the word, if you can walk away and go back to where you came from.

[r3volution 3.0]

OK, so it's not then unreasonable to do what can be done, within constitutional parameters of course, to limit migrants.

No, it's very unreasonable, for reasons explained (it's not going to help re the welfare state).


If the "cages" you are referring to are those where migrant invaders are being housed, it's not a "cage" in any sense of the word, if you can walk away and go back to where you came from.

I'm on my way to your house to trap you in a net Elmer Fudd style; I'll let you out, provided you go in the direction I tell you to go..

[Stratovarious]

Serious immigration restrictionists have long known this. This idea of being able to stop them all at the border without needing to track all of our activity within the borders is a total fantasy.

Serious Idiot Globalists have long been known to re-label anti illegals with labels like; 'immigrants' .
Fkdtards are like herpes , such
benevolent , generous , givers, again and again and again....... :frog:

And why on earth does SM continue to post on this forum, he slobbers all over this board with
terms that none of us subscribe to , obfuscating every illegal thread with misleading labels
that contradict every relevant libertarian post on this forum.

The consensus amongst the actual patriots here is ; secure the border , cut all incentives,
SM is sure to understand this fully, but Open Border Globalists will never address actual issues.

[jmdrake]

Everything Trump has done has decreased the number of immigrants.

https://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up.gif

[Anti Federalist]

No, it's very unreasonable, for reasons explained (it's not going to help re the welfare state).

I'm on my way to your house to trap you in a net Elmer Fudd style; I'll let you out, provided you go in the direction I tell you to go..

I'd expect that if I trespassed against you.

[r3volution 3.0]

I'd expect that if I trespassed against you.

Alright, but immigrants as such haven't trespassed against anyone: and if they incidentally have (some border farmer), then that's the fault of the feds for preventing the immigrants from entering the country by bus like anybody else, as they would surely like to do; and this is in any event between the farmer and the immigrant. Any "trespasser/invader" based argument against immigrants is dishonest or stupid. If you want them out for some reason, fine, but be honest and direct about it; don't try to pussily clothe it in the language of property rights (which restrictionist policies unquestionably violate).

[Anti Federalist]

Alright, but immigrants as such haven't trespassed against anyone: and if they incidentally have (some border farmer), then that's the fault of the feds for preventing the immigrants from entering the country by bus like anybody else, as they would surely like to do; and this is in any event between the farmer and the immigrant. Any "trespasser/invader" based argument against immigrants is dishonest or stupid. If you want them out for some reason, fine, but be honest and direct about it; don't try to pussily clothe it in the language of property rights (which restrictionist policies unquestionably violate).

My god man, I have stated my reasons 100 times.

A - Migrant invaders gain access to voting booths and vote for big government.

B - Migrant invaders are not invading "organically" they are being organized, paid and coached as part of a Fifth Gen warfare tactic to displace and replace the native population of the US.

C - Clearly, migrant invasion changes the face, the direction, the nature and tone of the nation. If I wanted to live in Kinshasa or Tijuana or Beijing, I would move there.

I would happily support the Immigration Act signed by the most libertarian president the nation has seen.

[r3volution 3.0]

My god man, I have stated my reasons 100 times.

A - Migrant invaders gain access to voting booths and vote for big government.

Look around at your fellow native-born voters.


B - Migrant invaders are not invading "organically" they are being organized, paid and coached as part of a Fifth Gen warfare tactic to displace and replace the native population of the US.

No, they're not, but that sells AJ subscriptions.


C - Clearly, migrant invasion changes the face, the direction, the nature and tone of the nation. If I wanted to live in Kinshasa or Tijuana or Beijing, I would move there.

Or you'd be put in a cage for trying


I would happily support the Immigration Act signed by the most libertarian president the nation has seen.

LOL, you mean the current President?

....drinking's not the answer AF (at least, not unless you're really good at it).

[Anti Federalist]

Look around at your fellow native-born voters.

What about them?

They are a slovenly, Idiocratiozed mess, stupefied by 24/7 noise programmed into their heads and drugs, legal and illegal.

How is importing millions of dirt poor, semi literate, sub IQ retards gonna help that?


No, they're not, but that sells AJ subscriptions.

I disagree.


Or you'd be put in a cage for trying

Possibly. Many countries around the world have not lost their collective minds and just won't let any mook just wander in whenever they feel like it.


LOL, you mean the current President?

....drinking's not the answer AF (at least, not unless you're really good at it).

No, I mean the 1924 Immigration Act signed into law by Calvin Coolidge, which remained the law until, in one of the first victories by the post war Frankfurt School of Cultural Marxists (Marxism where ethnicity replaces class as the wedge point), it was replaced in 1965.

Teddy Kennedy promised:

"our cities will not be flooded with a million immigrants annually. ... Secondly, the ethnic mix of this country will not be upset." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965)

Clearly, he lied.

[Swordsmyth]

Alright, but immigrants as such haven't trespassed against anyone: and if they incidentally have (some border farmer), then that's the fault of the feds for preventing the immigrants from entering the country by bus like anybody else, as they would surely like to do; and this is in any event between the farmer and the immigrant. Any "trespasser/invader" based argument against immigrants is dishonest or stupid. If you want them out for some reason, fine, but be honest and direct about it; don't try to pussily clothe it in the language of property rights (which restrictionist policies unquestionably violate).
They have trespassed, Americans ARE a GROUP and have a RIGHT to group territory to protect themselves and their rights from those who don't share their belief in liberty.

[Swordsmyth]

Look around at your fellow native-born voters.
The average is bad but much better than the invaders.




No, they're not, but that sells AJ subscriptions.
Yes they are.




LOL, you mean the current President?
Coolidge.

....drinking's not the answer AF (at least, not unless you're really good at it).[/QUOTE]

[r3volution 3.0]

What about them?

They are a slovenly, Idiocratiozed mess, stupefied by 24/7 noise programmed into their heads and drugs, legal and illegal.

How is importing millions of dirt poor, semi literate, sub IQ retards gonna help that?

Remember the bit about wetness in the midst of the pool?


Possibly. Many countries around the world have not lost their collective minds and just won't let any mook just wander in whenever they feel like it.

...and as it should be, right? We can't have you "stealing" jerbs from less efficient locals, can we?

So, cages it is.


No, I mean the 1924 Immigration Act signed into law by Calvin Coolidge, which remained the law until, in one of the first victories by the post war Frankfurt School of Cultural Marxists (Marxism where ethnicity replaces class as the wedge point), it was replaced in 1965.

Teddy Kennedy promised:

"our cities will not be flooded with a million immigrants annually. ... Secondly, the ethnic mix of this country will not be upset." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965)

Clearly, he lied.

Immigration was almost totally unrestricted in the US in the 19th century.

That's why I'm here; it's probably why you're here.

As a person who likes consistency, almost more than sanity (almost), I do appreciate the GOP's recent return to its roots.

In the whole 19th century the GOP worked terribly hard to prevent Germans, Irish, and Italians from coming here.

They lost that fight, though they did manage to leverage anti-German sentiment into prohibition.

Don't let the Kaiser poison our boys, etc.

[r3volution 3.0]

They have trespassed

No, they haven't.


Americans ARE a GROUP and have a RIGHT to group territory

No, comrade, they don't.

Property rights belong to individual human beings.


to protect themselves and their rights from those who don't share their belief in liberty.

lulz

[Swordsmyth]

Remember the bit about wetness in the midst of the pool?
Remember the bit about being drowned in the deep-end?




...and as it should be, right? We can't have you "stealing" jerbs from less efficient locals, can we?

So, cages it is.
Can't have foreigners taking over and tyrannizing natives.
And it's not a cage if you can go back anytime you want.




Immigration was almost totally unrestricted in the US in the 19th century.

That's why I'm here; it's probably why you're here.

As a person who likes consistency, almost more than sanity (almost), I do appreciate the GOP's recent return to its roots.
That's why we have so many socialists here and precedent doesn't overrule truth and logic.


In the whole 19th century the GOP worked terribly hard to prevent Germans, Irish, and Italians from coming here.

They lost that fight, though they did manage to leverage anti-German sentiment into prohibition.

Don't let the Kaiser poison our boys, etc.
If they had succeeded we wouldn't have had prohibition or many other socialist policies.

[r3volution 3.0]

...it's not a cage if you can go back anytime you want.

As I said to AF, how bout I come over to your house and put you in a cage.

And then I'll let you out, whenever you want, provided you walk away and go to Mexico.

...no rights violation?


If they had succeeded we wouldn't have had prohibition or many other socialist policies.

In keeping out Germans, Irish, and Italians, you mean?

[Swordsmyth]

As I said to AF, how bout I come over to your house and put you in a cage.

And then I'll let you out, whenever you want, provided you walk away and go to Mexico.

...no rights violation?
I am an American, I have a right to be here, if I invaded your house you would have a right to put me in a cage until I agreed to leave.




In keeping out Germans, Irish, and Italians, you mean?
Yes, they were far more socialist than Americans.

[r3volution 3.0]

I am an American, I have a right to be here, if I invaded your house you would have a right to put me in a cage until I agreed to leave.

Right, people who happened to be born here have rights; others aren't quite people, really...

...let's be honest.


Yes, they were far more socialist than Americans.

Yea, who wants those dirty Nobel prize winning people...

...wait, they hate Mexicans? Now you're true Americans!

Wait, you say early America was a repository for the scum of England?

...and the later immigrants are better than the originals?

DEPORTATION!

[Swordsmyth]

Right, people who happened to be born here have rights; others aren't quite people, really...

...let's be honest.
They have rights, they have a right to be in their country and I don't, just as you have a right to be in your house and I do not.




Yea, who wants those dirty Nobel prize winning people...
I don't if they are more communist than Americans.


...wait, they hate Mexicans? Now you're true Americans!
That has nothing to do with being an American.


Wait, you say early America was a repository for the scum of England?
I don't say that.
Any criminals that were sent here may or may not have been a bad thing and may or may not have contributed to the imperfection of our culture but there were far more liberty lovers who came here voluntarily.


...and the later immigrants are better than the originals?

DEPORTATION!
Nonsense.
The later immigrants were not better than the originals.
Unless civil war breaks out I don't want to deport any legitimate Americans.

[r3volution 3.0]

...

Various English kings gave you people tickets to cross the Atlantic.

They paid you to leave.

...take a hint, perhaps.

[Anti Federalist]

Property rights belong to individual human beings.

Ford Motor Company is not owned by any one individual.

It is owned by a common group of shareholders, millions of them across the globe.

Therefore, using your argument, I could waltz into the Ontario motor plant, and set up camp in the middle of the assembly line, and nobody could do a thing to stop me, correct?

[r3volution 3.0]

Ford Motor Company is not owned by any one individual.

No, it's owned by a bunch of them.


It is owned by a common group of shareholders, millions of them across the globe.

Right


Therefore, using your argument, I could waltz into the Ontario motor plant, and set up camp in the middle of the assembly line, and nobody could do a thing to stop me, correct?

...?

No, that doesn't follow from anything I've said.

[Anti Federalist]

That's why I'm here; it's probably why you're here.

My family has been here over 100 years before there was a country.

And we bought our lands, fair and square, from the natives.

I'm not gonna brag, or list it all, but Anti Federalists helped build this place.

So maybe that's insight into why I'm not so keen to just hand it over to some Bolshevik mob who, like a spoiled child who has screamed for a fancy, expensive, complex toy they wanted and realize, upon getting it, that they have no idea what to do with it or how it works or what it is for and discards it in the corner, broken and forgotten, to go and play with mud instead.