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kahless
07-05-2019, 09:43 AM
He’s teaching libertarians how to lose
https://spectator.us/justin-amash-anti-ron-paul/

What Ron Paul did was to counteract neoconservatism in the Republican party with libertarianism and populism. Populism proved to be more potent, but libertarianism itself contributed important elements to populism, including an articulate anti-interventionist foreign policy and a sense of class warfare as about power, not just wealth. Amash was never comfortable with populism, but libertarianism without it has no market at all. The Washington Post and the NeverTrump neocons share Amash’s animosity toward Trump and the populist right, but they share even fewer of his professed principles than Trump does. Ron Paul won despite losing; Amash teaches libertarians simply how to lose by losing.

pcosmar
07-05-2019, 10:16 AM
He’s teaching libertarians how to lose


Bullshit..

Read Ron Paul's Letter of Resignation..
because of the Reagan years.

there is nothing Republican about the Republican Party..

They just Elected a Lifetime Democrat who Bought the "R" Ticket on a whim.

seriously

unbunch your panties

tfurrh
07-05-2019, 10:23 AM
Read Ron Paul's Letter of Resignation..
because of the Reagan years.

there is nothing Republican about the Republican Party..


That's exactly what I was thinking. Here's a portion of Ron's resignation letter:


I want to totally disassociate myself from the policies that have given us unprecedented deficits, massive monetary inflation, indiscriminate military spending, an irrational and unconstitutional foreign policy, zooming foreign aid, the exaltation of international banking, and the attack on our personal liberties and privacy.

After years of trying to work through the Republican Party both in and out of government, I have reluctantly concluded that my efforts must be carried on outside the Republican Party. Republicans know that the Democratic agenda is dangerous to our political and economic health. Yet, in the past six years Republicans have expanded its worst aspects and called them our own. The Republican Party has not reduced the size of government. It has become big government's best friend.

If Ronald Reagan couldn't or wouldn't balance the budget, which Republican leader on the horizon can we possibly expect to do so? There is no credibility left for the Republican Party as a force to reduce the size of government. That is the message of the Reagan years.

I conclude that one must look to other avenues if a successful effort is ever to be achieved in reversing America's direction.

I therefore resign my membership in the Republican Party and enclose my membership card.

jkr
07-05-2019, 10:26 AM
Bull$#@!..

Read Ron Paul's Letter of Resignation..
because of the Reagan years.

there is nothing Republican about the Republican Party..

They just Elected a Lifetime Democrat who Bought the "R" Ticket on a whim.

seriously

unbunch your panties

he speaks sooth...

nobody's_hero
07-05-2019, 10:33 AM
Bull$#@!..

Read Ron Paul's Letter of Resignation..
because of the Reagan years.

there is nothing Republican about the Republican Party..

They just Elected a Lifetime Democrat who Bought the "R" Ticket on a whim.

seriously

unbunch your panties


That's exactly what I was thinking. Here's a portion of Ron's resignation letter:

I'm sure you're not intentionally trying to be omissive, but you just quoted the 1987 resignation letter.

You know he ran again as a Republican for president in 2008? Then again in 2012? At some point he also gave advice on running with the party that you think will give you the best chance to win, that it really didn't matter which party you run in.

Now, does that mean Ron believes that the Republican leadership/establishment has the best interests of the party's platform at heart? I would wager to say with what he's seen and suffered, absolutely not.

But clearly he saw some value in reaching out to a pool of voters that generally (meaning not 100%, but not 0% either) agree with him on limiting the size and scope of government.

I have one plea to the members of this forum: that we start putting value in being strategic as we are philosophic, heck, even a 45% strategic/55% philosophic split. Some of us would like liberty in our own lifetimes, or at the very least, some progress along the path that our children might pick up the torch and press on with. Sure, it's great to be right all the time, but even better to be right and have some semblance of a plan to win.

Edit: Was trying to find out where I heard that, it wasn't Ron Paul but one of his colleagues that he was quoting 'run in the party where you think you can win':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQQ--ju7Vxk

tfurrh
07-05-2019, 10:35 AM
I'm sure you're not intentionally trying to be omissive, but you just quoted the 1987 resignation letter.

You know he ran again as a Republican in 2008? Then again in 2012? At some point he also gave advice on running with the party that you think will give you the best chance to win, that it really didn't matter which party you run in.

Now, does that mean he believes that the Republican leadership/establishment has the best interests of the party's platform at heart? I would wager to say with what he's seen and suffered, absolutely not.

But clearly he saw some value in reaching out to a pool of voters that generally (meaning not 100%, but not 0% either) agree with him on limiting the size and scope of government.

I didn't know that....thank you. Now I truly see that Amash is the Anti Ron Paul Christ.

juleswin
07-05-2019, 10:40 AM
He’s teaching libertarians how to lose
https://spectator.us/justin-amash-anti-ron-paul/

I think populism is what Amash was lacking. Other than being wrong, the impeachment of Trump was not popular. So here comes Justin Amash promoting this very unpopular stance and him believing that something good would have come from it. I was still sort of a liberal during the 2008 campaign and listening to Ron Paul mix his libertarian policies with populist ones is what sold me to his message. Amash just picked the worst issue to make a stance on and it seems like he is going to pay dearly for it.

nobody's_hero
07-05-2019, 10:43 AM
I didn't know that....thank you. Now I truly see that Amash is the Anti Ron Paul Christ.

To be fair, he's going overboard with the sub-title. I could point out a critical flaw but it would piss off a lot of (L)ibertarians here, especially since the Libertarian party was around before Amash started any teaching lessons.

Cleaner44
07-05-2019, 10:58 AM
After Ron Paul quit the Republican party in 1985, he came back to it years later. When he returned to Congress as a Republican in 1996, it was because he saw that the best path forward was through the GOP and not the Libertarian party.

In 2007 Dr. Paul and his campaign asked libertarians like myself to join the GOP. While I was reluctant to do this, I realized he was older and wiser and it made sense.

I think it is quite obvious that the Libertarian party will not be able to compete with the Republican and Democrat parties.

I also think that in the last 12 years, we have seen the GOP move away from the neocon persuasion and more toward libertarian positions.

As flawed as the GOP is, it is the best path forward. My view is that we should continue the effort that was started in 2007 and do our best to promote liberty through the GOP. That makes a ton more sense that aligning with the Democratic Socialist party. There is no other viable choice.

Amash has lost his way and I wish him well in his future endeavors. He apparently still needs to learn what Ron Paul did from 1985 to 1995.

devil21
07-05-2019, 11:23 AM
At this rate, Justin will be a political household name. I hope he keeps it up. I definitely sense a larger plan here. What it is remains to be seen but name recognition is 75% of electoral politics and he's getting that in spades, with the help of the Trumpkins.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 11:31 AM
At this rate, Justin will be a political household name. I hope he keeps it up. I definitely sense a larger plan here. What it is remains to be seen but name recognition is 75% of electoral politics and he's getting that in spades, with the help of the Trumpkins.

The anti establishment politician is always going to get press, the left media and Bill Kristol have given him more press and elevation than all of the Trump people combined.

pcosmar
07-05-2019, 11:44 AM
To be fair, he's going overboard with the sub-title. I could point out a critical flaw but it would piss off a lot of (L)ibertarians here, especially since the Libertarian party was around before Amash started any teaching lessons.

I am not a Party Flaggot.

I could care less at this point.. The Republican Party and VOTERS elected a lifelong Democrat.. Who initially jokeed about the idea and then went FULL Clown and Bought the Republican Election..

and I met several Oregon Democrats that were voting FOR him. (Could not stand Hillary)

Both McCain and Hillary are behind the growth or the "alt -right',, and even imported Ukrainian Nazis to Train (proud skinheads and others)

so get off the partisan and divisive bullshit you are being fed by Q

nikcers
07-05-2019, 11:51 AM
I am not a Party Flaggot.

I could care less at this point.. The Republican Party and VOTERS elected a lifelong Democrat.. Who initially jokeed about the idea and then went FULL Clown and Bought the Republican Election..

and I met several Oregon Democrats that were voting FOR him. (Could not stand Hillary)

Both McCain and Hillary are behind the growth or the "alt -right',, and even imported Ukrainian Nazis to Train (proud skinheads and others)

so get off the partisan and divisive bull$#@! you are being fed by Q

Woke politics and woke capitalism and the me2 movement means that they can get you to do whatever they want. They are attacking us from all angles and you cant take a position without it being one of theirs. The only true independent people are the ones who can't be bought, and they are hated by all sides of this firing squad.

nobody's_hero
07-05-2019, 11:58 AM
I am not a Party Flaggot.

I could care less at this point.. The Republican Party and VOTERS elected a lifelong Democrat.. Who initially jokeed about the idea and then went FULL Clown and Bought the Republican Election..

and I met several Oregon Democrats that were voting FOR him. (Could not stand Hillary)

Both McCain and Hillary are behind the growth or the "alt -right',, and even imported Ukrainian Nazis to Train (proud skinheads and others)

so get off the partisan and divisive bull$#@! you are being fed by Q

Can you prove to me that the libertarians have a plan to actually win? Been around since 1971 and they're just waiting for the right moment to win an election, perhaps?

I'm not sorry what I say stings your senses. I'm glad it irritates; I just wish that anger could be harnessed and put towards some sort of—I don't know—motivation. You guys seem to think there's some sort of easy button to press and everyone just gets pissed off at the world, joins your cause, and you start slamming political opponents to the side as you blaze a trail to victory. Well, give me about a minute or so to microwave the popcorn.

It took Ron Paul from 1987 to 1996 to realize that 3rd parties were a dead-end. Most of us have been on these forums for at least that long. For those who can put down emotion and pick up reasoning skills, realize that he saved us a lot of time and frustration by coming to that conclusion. I know it's easy to get discouraged and want to throw in the towel at the first sign of trouble, but continuing to splinter off into smaller and smaller politically incompetent groups is ABSOLUTELY NOT going to get you any changes, politically.

kahless
07-05-2019, 12:09 PM
Bullshit..

Read Ron Paul's Letter of Resignation..
because of the Reagan years.

there is nothing Republican about the Republican Party..

They just Elected a Lifetime Democrat who Bought the "R" Ticket on a whim.

seriously

unbunch your panties

fyi - "He’s teaching libertarians how to lose", was the subtitle from the article, not my quote. No difference though since I agree with the author. I would add what is implied that you cannot change the country out of office or from a fringe out of power party. Ron understood this and worked with the party, Rand understands this as well.

tfurrh
07-05-2019, 01:50 PM
It took Ron Paul from 1987 to 1996 to realize that 3rd parties were a dead-end.

And we can't let Amash have time to figure it out without burning him to a crisp so that he never wants to return?

It's a good thing all of us conservatives weren't on Twitter back in the 80s to call RP a total loser.

pcosmar
07-05-2019, 02:22 PM
Can you prove to me that the libertarians have a plan to actually win?

"win"what exactly??

and I have no idea what a political party is thinking. (can a "party" think?).. I do NOT Belong to any Political Parties..

I prefer a better variety of drunks.

tfurrh
07-05-2019, 02:22 PM
I have one plea to the members of this forum: that we start putting value in being strategic as we are philosophic, heck, even a 45% strategic/55% philosophic split. Some of us would like liberty in our own lifetimes, or at the very least, some progress along the path that our children might pick up the torch and press on with. Sure, it's great to be right all the time, but even better to be right and have some semblance of a plan to win.

Ex 1. Trump says the govt is shut down until I get wall in budget. A month later Trump approves budget with no wall funds.

Ex 2. Trump says I'm leaving Syria asap. Retracts/qualifies statement, and 6 months later still in Syria

Ex. 3 Trump campaigns on Afgh/Iraq being mistakes. Appoints John Bolton...

I could go on, but these are examples of Trump's 45% pragmatism 55% idealism, and the majority of everyone here (maybe not Swordsmyth) has been pissed when he's done it.

Ex 4. Iran downs drone, Trump does not retaliate with force even though it was advised.

Trump possibly went 100% idealism with that. Everyone loved it.

pcosmar
07-05-2019, 02:24 PM
Rand understands this as well.

Rand likes Drones for Police,, and Million Dollar Hoaxes for Israel.

I could care less what he thinks. he lost my confidence years ago.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 02:26 PM
Rand likes Drones for Police,, and Million Dollar Hoaxes for Israel.

I could care less what he thinks. he lost my confidence years ago.

You don't have to care if you don't want to, just know that he cares. He could make a lot better money and have less people shooting at him and breaking his ribs if he wasn't trying to protect your rights.

pcosmar
07-05-2019, 02:33 PM
You don't have to care if you don't want to, just know that he cares. He could make a lot better money and have less people shooting at him and breaking his ribs if he wasn't trying to protect your rights.

PHUCK YOU

He has done nothing to secure or RETURN my Rights.

and I could care less how much "money" he makes... I have more Respect for an Honest Whore.
She at least Earns it.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 02:38 PM
PHUCK YOU

He has done nothing to secure or RETURN my Rights.

and I could care less how much "money" he makes... I have more Respect for an Honest Whore.
She at least Earns it.

No one person can return your rights, it takes the power of ideas and majority to take anything back.

nobody's_hero
07-05-2019, 02:40 PM
PHUCK YOU

He has done nothing to secure or RETURN my Rights.

and I could care less how much "money" he makes... I have more Respect for an Honest Whore.
She at least Earns it.

I believe I haven't touched the neg rep button in years.

*blows the dust off*

Click.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 02:44 PM
I believe I haven't touched the neg rep button in years.

*blows the dust off*

Click.

In defensee of Pc, the strategy of nonviolent direct action when you actually think about it is completely insane.

nobody's_hero
07-05-2019, 02:47 PM
In defensee of Pc, the strategy of nonviolent direct action when you actually think about is completely insane.

His strategy is one of passive-aggressive inaction and b*tching about everything, which when you actually think about it is completely useless.

There's only two ways we're getting freedom back in this country. I seriously doubt that if anyone can't be bothered to at least attempt the one we're trying now, then there's no way in hell they're gonna be willing to try the second.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 02:49 PM
His strategy is one of passive-aggressive inaction and b*tching about everything, which when you actually think about it is completely useless.

I was talking about Rand. LOL. You think sane people do stuff that gets them shot at and their ribs broken?

nobody's_hero
07-05-2019, 02:55 PM
I was talking about Rand. LOL. You think sane people do stuff that gets them shot at and their ribs broken?

I know, but if you think Rand was insane for that, then there is no word left to describe the guy who attacked him. Then again sanity is a completely subjective term these days.

fcreature
07-05-2019, 02:56 PM
PHUCK YOU

He has done nothing to secure or RETURN my Rights.

and I could care less how much "money" he makes... I have more Respect for an Honest Whore.
She at least Earns it.

:rolleyes:

I wonder if the remaining 48,731 posts you've made over the years are of equally stellar value as this one.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 02:56 PM
I know, but if you think Rand was insane for that, then there is no word left to describe the guy who attacked him. Then again sanity is a completely subjective term these days.

The guy that attacked him was being controlled. They try to control us all because they get off on it.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 02:59 PM
Lots of people like to be controlled, the thought of being in control of your own destiny is frightening. You are only free when you give up all hope.

nobody's_hero
07-05-2019, 03:02 PM
The guy that attacked him was being controlled. They try to control us all because they get off on it.

Eh. I don't really buy into that line of thinking because I think it excuses people from accepting responsibility for their own stupid behavior. If I show up late for work tonight, I don't think claiming that I was being controlled is gonna help me keep my job.

I'm gonna have to leave it at that. Y'all have a good weekend.

fcreature
07-05-2019, 03:03 PM
He’s teaching libertarians how to lose
https://spectator.us/justin-amash-anti-ron-paul/

Yes, sounds about right.

From a strategic and effectiveness perspective, Amash has set libertarian principles back significantly more than any good he's done for them since being elected.

And obviously I'm not just speaking to passing legislation. RP did not pass much legislation, but he built a political coalition (that allowed Amash to be elected, mind you) and educated millions of American voters. I very much doubt there are any libertarian converts from Amash's efforts. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite were true.

Amash could have retired and still made his point about the two party system. If he didn't go full TDS and dive into the worst political scandal of our generation, he might have had a little credibility when doing so.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 03:05 PM
Eh. I don't really buy into that line of thinking because I think it excuses people from accepting responsibility for their own stupid behavior. If I show up late for work tonight, I don't think claiming that I was being controlled is gonna help me keep my job.

I'm gonna have to leave it at that. Y'all have a good weekend.

They control people through fear and hate, things that most people that are sane can't turn off. Think of it like telling a little kid that they have to get a good night sleep or else the boogeyman will get them. That kid trusts you therefore believes you and will go to sleep.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 03:07 PM
People that they can't control get disappeared, they destroy their lives, put them into mental hospitals put them on meds gaslight them, murder them.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 03:09 PM
People that they can't control get disappeared, they destroy their lives, put them into mental hospitals put them on meds gaslight them, murder them.

I forgot buy them, everyone has a pricetag.

UWDude
07-05-2019, 04:08 PM
The guy that attacked him was being controlled. They try to control us all because they get off on it.

It is no mistake Rand has had two attempts on his life. The deep state only hates Trump more than Rand because Trump is on the throne they believe is theirs. But I have no doubt Rand is #2 on their hit list.

I have no doubt both attempts on Rands life were precioitated by years of "gangstalking", agents doing what they could to drive up the hatred of Rand, and make him the target of choice.

This is not a hard psy op to pull off, especially in the days of digital fingerprints, where you can identify by browsing time the issues most important to an individual. Then you befriend the patsy, and drop suggestion or make statements to rachet up the hatred. In Rand's case there is a high chance agitators mentioned property values and landscaping multiple times, reflecting poorly on the neighbor, making the neighbor think Rands handling of his landscaping was reflecting poorly on him.

Swordsmyth
07-05-2019, 04:32 PM
PHUCK YOU

He has done nothing to secure or RETURN my Rights.

and I could care less how much "money" he makes... I have more Respect for an Honest Whore.
She at least Earns it.
Where are all the pearl clutchers rushing to condemn this vile attack on Rand?

Where are you acptulsa ?

UWDude
07-05-2019, 04:49 PM
Where are all the pearl clutchers rushing to condemn this vile attack on Rand?

Where are you acptulsa ?

I remember Zippy cared so much he just assumed the lawnmower attacker was sentenced to years in prison. Cared so much could not even bother to check the facts before spouting.

UWDude
07-05-2019, 04:53 PM
PHUCK YOU

He has done nothing to secure or RETURN my Rights.

and I could care less how much "money" he makes... I have more Respect for an Honest Whore.
She at least Earns it.

Wow.


you are in washington state. I assume you have no property crime record. I know of multiple cannabis companies that start at 17 and dont care about your revealed record.

if you do have stealing on your record, sucks to be you, not much sympathy from me.

acptulsa
07-05-2019, 05:07 PM
Where are all the pearl clutchers rushing to condemn this vile attack on Rand?

Where are you acptulsa ?

Somewhere other than jumping through that hoop of yours. Get over yourself.

Swordsmyth
07-05-2019, 05:15 PM
Somewhere other than jumping through that hoop of yours. Get over yourself.
You are the one who needs to get over yourself and your stupid little crusade to get me banned by complaining about things that lots of other people do. (or even do worse things)

ProBlue33
07-05-2019, 06:07 PM
With age comes wisdom, mix that with pragmatism and you see how Ron Paul used the GOP vehicle to message the people in 07/08/12.
Ron Paul red pilled many of us posting here today, I know his philosophy on foreign policy completely changed the way I looked at it.
It was just so logical, but if he stayed in the shadows, millions would have never heard it.

But let Amash stand as a warning to all Republicans that are flirting with the idea of supporting the impeachment of Trump, it's total political suicide.
I hope that traitor Romney is watching and learning from all this.

Cleaner44
07-05-2019, 06:13 PM
At this rate, Justin will be a political household name. I hope he keeps it up. I definitely sense a larger plan here. What it is remains to be seen but name recognition is 75% of electoral politics and he's getting that in spades, with the help of the Trumpkins.

Megyn Kelly also became a household name on her way to becoming unemployed. She lost the trust of Republicans and never gained the trust of Democrats. Not a good place to be in political television.

Maybe Amash will be able to turn this into a gig as an NBC talk show host, but I don't see that being successful.

Sometimes bad things happen to people and it isn't a part of some grander plan or purpose. Being a household name isn't necessarily a step to something better... just ask Larry Craig (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig_scandal).

specsaregood
07-05-2019, 06:29 PM
Wow.
you are in washington state. I assume you have no property crime record. I know of multiple cannabis companies that start at 17 and dont care about your revealed record.
if you do have stealing on your record, sucks to be you, not much sympathy from me.

Pete was in prison on multiple accounts of armed robbery including a bank. he has been very open about it here. He wants his 2nd amendment rights back. I can see his position and do believe he has been "reformed"; but there is almost no way a bill restoring those rights is getting passed and its pointless for Randal to waste his time or political capital on it.

euphemia
07-05-2019, 06:57 PM
They control people through fear and hate, things that most people that are sane can't turn off. Think of it like telling a little kid that they have to get a good night sleep or else the boogeyman will get them. That kid trusts you therefore believes you and will go to sleep.

You really can’t lay that lot solely at the feet of politicians. A lot of evil people never hold office, yet control others through fear and hate.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 06:58 PM
You really can’t lay that lot solely at the feet of politicians. A lot of evil people never hold office, yet control others through fear and hate.

When I say they I mean TPTB, the Cabal, the Deepstate..

eleganz
07-05-2019, 07:02 PM
Seriously, posting ron resignation letter from the gop is pointless because he went back and stayed for decades

Anti Globalist
07-05-2019, 07:25 PM
Megyn Kelly also became a household name on her way to becoming unemployed. She lost the trust of Republicans and never gained the trust of Democrats. Not a good place to be in political television.

Maybe Amash will be able to turn this into a gig as an NBC talk show host, but I don't see that being successful.

Sometimes bad things happen to people and it isn't a part of some grander plan or purpose. Being a household name isn't necessarily a step to something better... just ask Larry Craig (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig_scandal).
Thats certainly true for Hillary Clinton.

familydog
07-05-2019, 07:34 PM
The difference between Ron and Amash is that the former is loyal to America's heritage and tries to reinvigorate the principles of the founding generation. That resonates with people. Amash is a generic cosmopolitan libertarian who sees cultures and peoples as interchangeable.

Swordsmyth
07-05-2019, 07:38 PM
The difference between Ron and Amash is that the former is loyal to America's heritage and tries to reinvigorate the principles of the founding generation. That resonates with people. Amash is a generic cosmopolitan libertarian who sees cultures and peoples as interchangeable.
Amash also seems to have no idea about how to make progress toward his goals while Ron and Rand do.

UWDude
07-05-2019, 07:45 PM
The difference between Ron and Amash is that the former is loyal to America's heritage and tries to reinvigorate the principles of the founding generation. That resonates with people. Amash is a generic cosmopolitan libertarian who sees cultures and peoples as interchangeable.

my only beef with Amash is he called for Trumps impeachment. I understand open border libertarians, and that is just a difference of opinion. Especially si9nce I used to be one, and have read multiple books on the subject of immigration.

But to reward the crooks who tried to frame and destroy the duly elected president of the Untied States is unforgivable. Any other president, I *might* have been oK with it, because they were all deep state puppets, but Trump is different, and I'll not have it.

UWDude
07-05-2019, 07:50 PM
Pete was in prison on multiple accounts of armed robbery including a bank. he has been very open about it here. He wants his 2nd amendment rights back. I can see his position and do believe he has been "reformed"; but there is almost no way a bill restoring those rights is getting passed and its pointless for Randal to waste his time or political capital on it.

Oh, I thought I read him say it was for drug dealing.

Anyways, I keep a very unconventional weapon nearby, in case I ever get a gun in my face. Let's just say, 20 years later, they'll be alive, but they'll be wanting a lot more than just their gun rights back.

Dude should still be locked up, IMHO. Should be happy he isn't dead, and happy America does believe in second chances.
Should be happy he is allowed to be on the outside, paying taxes, and subject to the same oppression those of who haven't shoved a gun in someones face to steal from them, suffer.

Now I am not a judgemental person... ..wait, I lie, I am. I don't like thieves, and I certainly care very little for anybody who has shoved a gun in an innocent person's face.

kcchiefs6465
07-05-2019, 07:57 PM
Anyways, I keep a very unconventional weapon nearby, in case I ever get a gun in my face. Let's just say, 20 years later, they'll be alive, but they'll be wanting a lot more than just their gun rights back.

Okay, I'll bite. Nun chucks?

Swordsmyth
07-05-2019, 07:59 PM
Oh, I thought I read him say it was for drug dealing.

Anyways, I keep a very unconventional weapon nearby, in case I ever get a gun in my face. Let's just say, 20 years later, they'll be alive, but they'll be wanting a lot more than just their gun rights back.

Dude should still be locked up, IMHO. Should be happy he isn't dead, and happy America does believe in second chances.
Should be happy he is allowed to be on the outside, paying taxes, and subject to the same oppression those of who haven't shoved a gun in someones face to steal from them, suffer.

Now I am not a judgemental person... ..wait, I lie, I am. I don't like thieves, and I certainly care very little for anybody who has shoved a gun in an innocent person's face.
The least he could do is refrain from attacking Rand for not tilting at his favorite windmill while defending Amash who has also not done anything to return firearms rights to felons.

UWDude
07-05-2019, 08:17 PM
Okay, I'll bite. Nun chucks?

That would require a level of skill.
My weapon only requires the will to permanently maim someone.
(and somebody pointing a gun in my face is certain to give me the courage to destroy them)
Even a child could use it with the same result.
No aiming or anything required.
Very easy. Always on the ready.
Only drawback is it only has a range of about 10 feet at best.

kcchiefs6465
07-05-2019, 08:24 PM
That would require a level of skill.
My weapon only requires the will to permanently maim someone.
(and somebody pointing a gun in my face is certain to give me the courage to destroy them)
Even a child could use it with the same result.
No aiming or anything required.
Very easy. Always on the ready.
Only drawback is it only has a range of about 10 feet at best.
Why not a pistol?

UWDude
07-05-2019, 08:31 PM
Why not a pistol?

Not allowed.
I fought the law directly when I was younger. (Used to really hate cops)
Crime of passion means no guns allowed for me in my state.
I get it. Even though it was a victimless crime, it was still a felony.

Anyways, they would understand the pistol.
They would not understand my weapon.
Part of the charm of it.

specsaregood
07-05-2019, 08:50 PM
Okay, I'll bite. Nun chucks?

When I lived in a country where guns were illegal and home invasions were not out of the question, I had a machete next to the bed.

Anti Globalist
07-05-2019, 09:10 PM
Not allowed.
I fought the law directly when I was younger. (Used to really hate cops)
Crime of passion means no guns allowed for me in my state.
I get it. Even though it was a victimless crime, it was still a felony.

Anyways, they would understand the pistol.
They would not understand my weapon.
Part of the charm of it.
So your weapon is something most people aren't familiar with?

nikcers
07-05-2019, 09:13 PM
So your weapon is something most people aren't familiar with?

Lots of things can be fatal that you don't notice- like walking around in SF and stepping on a needle with super aids.

Swordsmyth
07-05-2019, 09:32 PM
That would require a level of skill.
My weapon only requires the will to permanently maim someone.
(and somebody pointing a gun in my face is certain to give me the courage to destroy them)
Even a child could use it with the same result.
No aiming or anything required.
Very easy. Always on the ready.
Only drawback is it only has a range of about 10 feet at best.

A hand grenade?

UWDude
07-05-2019, 09:32 PM
So your weapon is something most people aren't familiar with?

Hot Tea / coffee.

I go in the back, nuke it to boil, (15 - 20 seconds at most because I always keep it hot) and watch the security footage when someone sketch walks in.

Hands up with "coffee" in hand. Whatever you say mister, safe is back here.

Feign cowardice, give them a shaky voice and insist I don't want trouble. The chance will present itself to get them in the face.

I have never let a chance to be a hero go to waste. They are precious moments in life, and I have seized the few that have presented themselves to me. 2 for 1. (one runner got away when he ran into busy four lane traffic, so I stopped).

No way I'm gonna let a piece of shit point a gun in my face, and get away with it.

pcosmar
07-05-2019, 09:41 PM
In defensee of Pc, the strategy of nonviolent direct action when you actually think about it is completely insane.

Exactly,,and have been down that road.

there is no "fixing" it.

Remove it. and then prevent its return.

and I have been waiting for the folks WITH Guns to do something.

and I got crickets

UWDude
07-05-2019, 09:50 PM
Exactly,,and have been down that road.

there is no "fixing" it.

Remove it. and then prevent its return.

and I have been waiting for the folks WITH Guns to do something.

and I got crickets

Yeah, I hated the cops because of people like you.
I hung out with them gangstas and the bums, because we smoked weed other drugs and fuck the police.
I listened to their stories about cops being dicks and all that.
And I had dozens of run ins with cops during my youth.
Mouthy every time. Max fine every time.

Yeah, you want people to fight your revolution for you.
To die for you. Because you fucked your life up.

I'd tell you to start it off yourself, but I don't want to encourage another tard killing innocents.
It is time for some serious introspection.

And I thought I was a revolutionary when I defied the cops.

Then I thought about who I was fighting for.

I would never stick a gun in some poor souls face to take things, to have things, or drugs, or anything.
Un-man some 9-5er just doing their job.
I would never break into someones house. I would never even shoplift.
Yet here I was thinking I was gonna fight for those who would do that to me.

No thanks.
I have no interest in killing for you, much less dying for you.

It's a dog eat dog world. Every man is out for his own self. That's how it works.
Revolutionaries fight for ideals, only to be thrown away at the end by their puppet masters.

Anti Globalist
07-05-2019, 09:50 PM
A hand grenade?
I don't think he would choose a weapon where he could possibly be in the blast radius.

nikcers
07-05-2019, 09:51 PM
Exactly,,and have been down that road.

there is no "fixing" it.

Remove it. and then prevent its return.

and I have been waiting for the folks WITH Guns to do something.

and I got crickets
Never say never-

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

pcosmar
07-05-2019, 10:10 PM
It's a dog eat dog world. Every man is out for his own self. That's how it works.
Revolutionaries fight for ideals, only to be thrown away at the end by their puppet masters.

Preach it Union Punk.. That is what killed Detroit.

UWDude
07-05-2019, 10:13 PM
Preach it Union Punk.. That is what killed Detroit.

It's the bedrock of Libertarian economic philosophy.

pcosmar
07-05-2019, 10:17 PM
It's the bedrock of Libertarian economic philosophy.

Bullshit..unions are bedrock socialist breeding grounds.

UWDude
07-05-2019, 10:20 PM
Bull$#@!..unions are bedrock socialist breeding grounds.

I was talking about


It's a dog eat dog world. Every man is out for his own self. That's how it works.

UWDude
07-05-2019, 10:24 PM
Bull$#@!..unions are bedrock socialist breeding grounds.

What great revolution, should I take up arms for, pcosmar? Tell me, where to fight, and where to die.
Tell me who my enemies are.
You want the revolution, name all who must die.
Let's see that giant list you got stashed away in your head.
I'm far from fed, and I certainly don't want you answering, for your sake and mine.

You want the guns out for what?
I know what it is. I always suspected it. You need the game to reset.
The lumpen proletariat. Unreliable, selfish, undisciplined. Long on ideas, and short on work.

Get them demographic cards all played right, and you got a suicidal world.
Fuck Amash, fuck the civil war. Take that bullshit back to Israel/palestine where it belongs.

devil21
07-05-2019, 11:20 PM
Megyn Kelly also became a household name on her way to becoming unemployed. She lost the trust of Republicans and never gained the trust of Democrats. Not a good place to be in political television.

Unemployment? lol I'm sure she was heartbroken when her $60 million NBC pay-off, for her role in getting Trump elected, hit. Teleprompter reading whores for hire is all "media" is.



Maybe Amash will be able to turn this into a gig as an NBC talk show host, but I don't see that being successful.

Sometimes bad things happen to people and it isn't a part of some grander plan or purpose. Being a household name isn't necessarily a step to something better... just ask Larry Craig (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig_scandal).

I guess we will see, won't we? Amash knew what the reaction would be. Perhaps he's learned a thing or two about politics in his years on the Hill and is using Trump and the very predictable apoplectic reaction from the Trumpkins to raise his profile? We shall see...

UWDude
07-05-2019, 11:23 PM
I guess we will see, won't we? Amash knew what the reaction would be. Perhaps he's learned a thing or two about politics in his years on the Hill and is using Trump and the very predictable apoplectic reaction from the Trumpkins to raise his profile? We shall see...

Better not be aiding and abetting the crooks who spied on and tried to take down the president of the United States. This better be pure stupid strategy.

devil21
07-05-2019, 11:35 PM
Better not be aiding and abetting the crooks who spied on and tried to take down the president of the United States. This better be pure stupid strategy.

Give the deep state coup nonsense a rest when you're talking to me. Only the low-infos believe that.

UWDude
07-05-2019, 11:42 PM
Give the deep state coup nonsense a rest when you're talking to me. Only the low-infos believe that.

You got me. This is some serious Amash 25d-chess strategizing. He gonna take Trump down by gathering up all the never Trumpers and Republicans and civil libertarians and spoil it for Trump, and give it to anybody but Trump. Then finally you'll get to laugh at the Trump cultists cry.

And I say go for it. Sun Tzu says never take advice from an enemy, and also says never interrupt an enemy while making a mistake.

familydog
07-06-2019, 03:23 AM
Amash also seems to have no idea about how to make progress toward his goals while Ron and Rand do.

True. Amash's hissy fit boils down to ignorance and misplaced expectations. Ron Paul understood that the Republican Party is (and always was) a party that advocates for nationalized public policy, protectionist trade, foreign intervention and central banking. His goal was to transform it. Amash seems to think that the Republican Party had some vague golden age of free market libertarianism and now that party has left HIM. No. He just failed miserably to obtain what Ron Paul started.

familydog
07-06-2019, 03:29 AM
my only beef with Amash is he called for Trumps impeachment. I understand open border libertarians, and that is just a difference of opinion. Especially si9nce I used to be one, and have read multiple books on the subject of immigration.

I don't, but that's another topic for another day.


But to reward the crooks who tried to frame and destroy the duly elected president of the Untied States is unforgivable. Any other president, I *might* have been oK with it, because they were all deep state puppets, but Trump is different, and I'll not have it.

Amash is a politican. He is not a statesman. He will advocate for the police state if it suits his personal goals. As we see, Amash has given up on improving America. You're right. This is a line-cross that is genuinely unforgivable for someone in Congress.

kcchiefs6465
07-06-2019, 09:41 AM
Amash is a politican. He is not a statesman. He will advocate for the police state if it suits his personal goals. As we see, Amash has given up on improving America. You're right. This is a line-cross that is genuinely unforgivable for someone in Congress.
I am genuinely curious. Are you positing that you have or will have done more in impeding or rolling back, say, the police state in your entire life than Justin Amash has done in eight years?

If you want to say that it was stupid of Amash for doing what he did- there is no question there is an argument to be made. But to act like Trump isn't actively destroying freedom (anti-free trade, anti-2nd Amendment, drone war escalation, etc.) while Justin Amash has spent his time in Congress actively being a wrench in the gears is downright special. The man camped out numerous times to ensure that bills were not passed in secret. Not because he had to or because it was politically convenient, I'd add.

You don't think Trump should be indicted/impeached for Obstruction of Justice? Cool. Neither do I. He ought to be tried as a war criminal. I piss obstructions.

TheCount
07-06-2019, 09:53 AM
Where are all the pearl clutchers rushing to condemn this vile attack on Rand?

Where are you @acptulsa (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=12430) ?


You should go make a petition about it right away!

kcchiefs6465
07-06-2019, 09:59 AM
Hot Tea / coffee.

I go in the back, nuke it to boil, (15 - 20 seconds at most because I always keep it hot) and watch the security footage when someone sketch walks in.

Hands up with "coffee" in hand. Whatever you say mister, safe is back here.

Feign cowardice, give them a shaky voice and insist I don't want trouble. The chance will present itself to get them in the face.

I have never let a chance to be a hero go to waste. They are precious moments in life, and I have seized the few that have presented themselves to me. 2 for 1. (one runner got away when he ran into busy four lane traffic, so I stopped).

No way I'm gonna let a piece of shit point a gun in my face, and get away with it.
That has to be the most assured way to get shot that I could imagine (though it would be funnier than hell if you actually pulled it off).

For God's sake, get a pistol. There's no need to be a martyr for what amounts to worthless property that I assume is not even yours. From a capitalist perspective too, you die trying to defend a few hundred or thousand dollars and the business will lose that in higher insurance costs, the lost sales that will result, etc.

For example, if you get stabbed trying to defend a beer run out... is that really economically sensible from the business owner's perspective? They probably would rather have lost the beer (and obviously your life and human life are worth far more than material goods). Or if the person runs into traffic, gets hit, dies, or lives, and he or his family sues the establishment alleging overzealous and/or unfounded reasoning for chasing him into traffic. At the very least court costs will mount up (even if the establishment wins) and you'll be terminated for whatever reason is available.

What I'm thinking reading this is that it should be an advertisement for GOA. Anti-gunners have gone so far that people contemplate throwing hot coffee in someone's face to defend themselves against violence. If that doesn't make people reexamine this ridiculousness I don't know what would.

UWDude
07-06-2019, 10:08 AM
That has to be the most assured way to get shot that I could imagine (though it would be funnier than hell if you actually pulled it off).

For God's sake, get a pistol. There's no need to be a martyr for what amounts to worthless property that I assume is not even yours. From a capitalist perspective too, you die trying to defend a few hundred or thousand dollars and the business will lose that in higher insurance costs, the lost sales that will result, etc.

For example, if you get stabbed trying to defend a beer run out... is that really economically sensible from the business owner's perspective? They probably would rather have lost the beer (and obviously your life and human life are worth far more than material goods). Or if the person runs into traffic, gets hit, dies, or lives, and he or his family sues the establishment alleging overzealous and/or unfounded reasoning for chasing him into traffic. At the very least court costs will mount up (even if the establishment wins) and you'll be terminated for whatever reason is available.

What I'm thinking reading this is that it should be an advertisement for GOA. Anti-gunners have gone so far that people contemplate throwing hot coffee in someone's face to defend themselves against violence. If that doesn't make people reexamine this ridiculousness I don't know what would.

1. boiling water to the face is the end of any persons ability to shoot.
2. It's not about property, its about disrespect. Anyway, I work with "metals" and "3d modeling"
3. Holding a cup of boiling water in your hand will not even register as a weapon to an armed robber.
4. firing off a weapon in a public area has a chance of hitting innocent bystanders, and often will stop somebody from firing.

kahless
07-06-2019, 10:11 AM
I am genuinely curious. Are you positing that you have or will have done more in impeding or rolling back, say, the police state in your entire life than Justin Amash has done in eight years?

At the very least he did not contribute to supporting policies that will reverse everything Amash has done on that front. Wake up, Amash spent his career supporting policies that will ensure a future of Democratic socialist victories and growing government. He continues to do so with his statements. This means all he has done in eight years to roll-back the police state means very little and no doubt will be rolled back eventually. Face it, he conned us.

Cleaner44
07-06-2019, 10:11 AM
Unemployment? lol I'm sure she was heartbroken when her $60 million NBC pay-off, for her role in getting Trump elected, hit. Teleprompter reading whores for hire is all "media" is.



I guess we will see, won't we? Amash knew what the reaction would be. Perhaps he's learned a thing or two about politics in his years on the Hill and is using Trump and the very predictable apoplectic reaction from the Trumpkins to raise his profile? We shall see...

I think its funny that NBC was stupid enough to hire her and now they have to pay her for not working. Unfortunately for Amash, he has no such contract.

We certainly will see what happens with Amash and I suspect there won't be much to see. Most likely he will fade away. Just another lost libertarian voice. Maybe he can get a job wherever the Southern Avenger works.

kahless
07-06-2019, 10:14 AM
I think its funny that NBC was stupid enough to hire her and now they have to pay her for not working. Unfortunately for Amash, he has no such contract.

We certainly will see what happens with Amash and I suspect there won't be much to see. Most likely he will fade away. Just another lost libertarian voice. Maybe he can get a job wherever the Southern Avenger works.

The Neocons and Never Trumpers in both parties are salivating over the prospect of Amash running third party. His support from that contingent says allot about Amash. If he does they are going to be in for a surprise since he will likely take more votes from Dems than Republicans.

kcchiefs6465
07-06-2019, 10:16 AM
1. boiling water to the face is the end of any persons ability to shoot.
2. It's not about property, its about disrespect. Anyway, I work with "metals" and "3d modeling"
3. Holding a cup of boiling water in your hand will not even register as a weapon to an armed robber.
They might just blindly shoot in your direction.

All I am saying is that this isn't a movie. Do what you want/need to do to defend yourself, of course, but you're liable to get people killed if it isn't hot enough or by chance doesn't blind the perpetrator.

UWDude
07-06-2019, 10:16 AM
The Neocons and Never Trumpers in both parties are salivating over the prospect of Amash running third party. His support from that contingent says allot about Amash. If he does they are going to be in for a surprise since he will likely take more votes from Dems than Republicans.

Shhh! Don't tell them!

XD

UWDude
07-06-2019, 10:18 AM
They might just blindly shoot in your direction.

All I am saying is that this isn't a movie. Do what you want/need to do to defend yourself, of course, but you're liable to get people killed if it isn't hot enough or by chance doesn't blind the perpetrator.

Have you ever been maced? I have, multiple times. Once the mace kicks in, you can pull the trigger, but you aren't hitting anybody. Boiling water is instantaneous, (mace takes about 15 - 20 seconds) and you dont even have to aim, chances of hitting are high.

The drawback is if there are two robbers, 1 cup would not work.

brushfire
07-06-2019, 10:18 AM
In my mind, both Amash and Rand have demonstrated conviction when it has counted. Their actions speak volumes. Most politicians cave to the whims of the establishment/deep state, promising one thing and doing something completely opposite... Most politicians have been on several sides of every issue, with the current position being the most expedient for their interests (read, no principle)... I see Trump as one of those politicians, with Hillary's indictment being a sole issue to secure my vote for him as president. The guy, plain and simple, is full of sh!t...

Anyhow, I'd rather struggle to find nits to pick with a candidate than redeeming factors and excuses. Flaws and all, Amash and Rand have my support - they're the real deal, they support liberty and are willing to stick their necks out for the cause. If we could get just 25 more politicians of their caliber, things would be a whole lot different.

kcchiefs6465
07-06-2019, 10:20 AM
At the very least he did not contribute to supporting policies that will reverse everything Amash has done on that front. Wake up, Amash spent his career supporting policies that will ensure a future of Democratic socialist victories and growing government. He continues to do so with his statements. This means all he has done in eight years to roll-back the police state means very little and no doubt will be rolled back eventually. Face it, he conned us.
I wasn't too impressed with the last 150 years, to be completely honest.

kcchiefs6465
07-06-2019, 10:30 AM
In my mind, both Amash and Rand have demonstrated conviction when it has counted. Their actions speak volumes. Most politicians cave to the whims of the establishment/deep state, promising one thing and doing something completely opposite... Most politicians have been on several sides of every issue, with the current position being the most expedient for their interests (read, no principle)... I see Trump as one of those politicians, with Hillary's indictment being a sole issue to secure my vote for him as president. The guy, plain and simple, is full of sh!t...

Anyhow, I'd rather struggle to find nits to pick with a candidate than redeeming factors and excuses. Flaws and all, Amash and Rand have my support - they're the real deal, they support liberty and are willing to stick their necks out for the cause. If we could get just 25 more politicians of their caliber, things would be a whole lot different.
Let's go ahead and throw Massie in there too.

These are intelligent and capable people who quite probably would command a salary as much or more in the private sector. I feel bad for them, really.

brushfire
07-06-2019, 10:35 AM
Let's go ahead and throw Massie in there too.

These are intelligent and capable people who quite probably would command a salary as much or more in the private sector. I feel bad for them, really.

You are so right to point him out - his omission from my post was because I was talking to the prior post mentions of both Amash and Rand. In my opinion, Thomas Massie would win statesman of the decade - that guy is truly awesome!

kahless
07-06-2019, 10:42 AM
You are so right to point him out - his omission from my post was because I was talking to the prior post mentions of both Amash and Rand. In my opinion, Thomas Massie would win statesman of the decade - that guy is truly awesome!

Yes, he gets it, unlike Justin Clinton.



http://www.thomasmassie.com/issues/immigration/
The federal government should strengthen our borders. In the absence of action on the part of our federal government, states should be allowed to defend their international borders.
...
https://massie.house.gov/issues/immigration
I oppose illegal immigration and will work to secure our borders. I will also work to end taxpayer-funded programs for illegal immigrants. American taxpayers should not be forced to pay for illegal immigrants’ welfare, medical care, and other benefits that encourage illegal immigration.

brushfire
07-06-2019, 10:51 AM
[tangent_alert] The exploitation of the last drowning pic, a man and his daughter, is what has been happening constantly under various administrations (including barack obama).


https://www.google.com/search?q=rio+grande+drowning+year&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2005%2Ccd_max%3A5%2 F1%2F2019&tbm=

These illegals are fully aware of the risks, and are willing to take them based on the incentives. I'm not sure how many media outlets are pointing out that the congress and the last 3+ administrations are to blame for these deaths - and again, no wall is going to fix the problem.

Anti Globalist
07-06-2019, 11:04 AM
Have you ever been maced? I have, multiple times. Once the mace kicks in, you can pull the trigger, but you aren't hitting anybody. Boiling water is instantaneous, (mace takes about 15 - 20 seconds) and you dont even have to aim, chances of hitting are high.

The drawback is if there are two robbers, 1 cup would not work.
Then you better make sure you have 2 cups in case you're ever faced with two perpetrators.

kahless
07-06-2019, 11:20 AM
Food for thought.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D677DKjXYAUgYIz.png

brushfire
07-06-2019, 11:53 AM
Food for thought.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D677DKjXYAUgYIz.png

Some more perspective:

https://twitter.com/MattWelch/status/1133505262567010309?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1133505262567010309&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthelibertarianrepublic.com%2 Fno-justin-amash-wont-be-hurt-by-tariffs-on-china%2F


I personally know several business owners who have interests in China as part of their manufacturing. Tax, regulation, and health care had put a lot of pressure on employers who are faced with the choice of hiring in the US or abroad. Operating a business is much cheaper in China, for that matter, the same goes for India. There's different approaches to this labor issue, and one requires more government, while the other requires less. One approach has long term benefits, while the other imposes long and short term risks. Trump represents the government approach, while Amash represents the less government approach.

For the sake of argument, if we were to pretend that there was no attack on Trump, do any of Amash's words ring true? Are they inconsistent with his prior actions, and do they offend the cause of liberty? What if we take the partisan politics out of the equation, and then look at things for what they are - is that even possible? To be fair, I dont think many people are capable of this. Trump is the orange obama, complete with fanatic/zealot followers - people simply lose sight of the overall picture.

pcosmar
07-06-2019, 12:00 PM
Take that bull$#@! back to Israel/palestine where it belongs.

it has been imported here,, and is now funded and supported from here..

and I ain't playing the game.


I have been disarmed by the socialist laws that should not exist and am threatened daily by the armed enforcers of those unjust laws..

But the Socialists ARE pushing for Total Disarmament,,and then enslavement.

I don't have a stockpile,,, and am not even welcome at 2nd amendment marches.. was Banned from THR before I came here..


I am well aware of my realities..

and why I have been Blackballed for employment,,

I ain't playing the stupid game.

Till others step up to set it right,,, I am going to watch it burn.... as I am prohibited and unwelcome.

PAF
07-06-2019, 12:30 PM
Some more perspective:

https://twitter.com/MattWelch/status/1133505262567010309?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1133505262567010309&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthelibertarianrepublic.com%2 Fno-justin-amash-wont-be-hurt-by-tariffs-on-china%2F


I personally know several business owners who have interests in China as part of their manufacturing. Tax, regulation, and health care had put a lot of pressure on employers who are faced with the choice of hiring in the US or abroad. Operating a business is much cheaper in China, for that matter, the same goes for India. There's different approaches to this labor issue, and one requires more government, while the other requires less. One approach has long term benefits, while the other imposes long and short term risks. Trump represents the government approach, while Amash represents the less government approach.

For the sake of argument, if we were to pretend that there was no attack on Trump, do any of Amash's words ring true? Are they inconsistent with his prior actions, and do they offend the cause of liberty? What if we take the partisan politics out of the equation, and then look at things for what they are - is that even possible? To be fair, I don't think many people are capable of this. Trump is the orange obama, complete with fanatic/zealot followers - people simply lose sight of the overall picture.


+ REP

More government involvement ALWAYS leads to more government involvement.

UWDude
07-06-2019, 12:31 PM
it has been imported here,, and is now funded and supported from here..

and I ain't playing the game.


I have been disarmed by the socialist laws that should not exist and am threatened daily by the armed enforcers of those unjust laws..

But the Socialists ARE pushing for Total Disarmament,,and then enslavement.

I don't have a stockpile,,, and am not even welcome at 2nd amendment marches.. was Banned from THR before I came here..


I am well aware of my realities..

and why I have been Blackballed for employment,,

I ain't playing the stupid game.

Till others step up to set it right,,, I am going to watch it burn.... as I am prohibited and unwelcome.


I almost felt sorry for you.
Then I remembered I learned to code last year, while working full time.

#learntocode

TheTexan
07-06-2019, 12:48 PM
Ron Paul won despite losing; Amash teaches libertarians simply how to lose by losing.

libertarians were losing long before Amash, and they'll be losing long after he's gone.

I think they invented losing .

nobody's_hero
07-06-2019, 12:54 PM
Seriously, posting ron resignation letter from the gop is pointless because he went back and stayed for decades

People still think that working within the GOP means you're automatically selling out and letting them use you. It's absolutely unfathomable for some folks to think it is possible to use the GOP. I don't see why we couldn't. Hell, we already have. Ron used the GOP. Rand used the GOP. Even Amash used the GOP. The neocons have been using the GOP (and the Democratic party) at least since Rockefeller. We're just politically incompetent. That's our biggest problem.

nobody's_hero
07-06-2019, 12:57 PM
it has been imported here,, and is now funded and supported from here..

and I ain't playing the game.


I have been disarmed by the socialist laws that should not exist and am threatened daily by the armed enforcers of those unjust laws..

But the Socialists ARE pushing for Total Disarmament,,and then enslavement.

I don't have a stockpile,,, and am not even welcome at 2nd amendment marches.. was Banned from THR before I came here..


I am well aware of my realities..

and why I have been Blackballed for employment,,

I ain't playing the stupid game.

Till others step up to set it right,,, I am going to watch it burn.... as I am prohibited and unwelcome.

You are a hipster's hipster. Too cool for a job. Too cool for political parties. Man, you're just a cool dude.

Sammy
07-06-2019, 01:02 PM
Justin Amash has one of the best voting records in D.C....He will not be re-elected.
My feeling is that he is going to run for President & this could cost Trump the election.

kahless
07-06-2019, 01:23 PM
Justin Amash has one of the best voting records in D.C....He will not be re-elected.
My feeling is that he is going to run for President & this could cost Trump the election.

I am surprised to hear that from someone who has good old Pat as his avatar who I am big fan of. They share practically nothing in common and are polar opposites on trade, the border, immigration and culture. Pat is more hardcore than Trump on these issues. If Pat was President one can only imagine how triggered Amash would be.

Anti Globalist
07-06-2019, 01:29 PM
Justin Amash has one of the best voting records in D.C....He will not be re-elected.
My feeling is that he is going to run for President & this could cost Trump the election.
Unlikely. Trumps the kind of guy that has plans for every scenario possible. After all, he spend nearly 4 decades creating the perfect blueprint to become president. Even if Amash were to run, he would get more Democrats to vote for him than Republicans.

PAF
07-06-2019, 01:33 PM
Unlikely. Trumps the kind of guy that has plans for every scenario possible. After all, he spend nearly 4 decades creating the perfect blueprint to become president. Even if Amash were to run, he would get more Democrats to vote for him than Republicans.

And that is bad how? Isn't that what Ron suggested we do? Justin constantly talks about the Constitution and representing his constituents. What better way that this to return to the Constitution.

devil21
07-06-2019, 01:47 PM
Unlikely. Trumps the kind of guy that has plans for every scenario possible. After all, he spend nearly 4 decades creating the perfect blueprint to become president. Even if Amash were to run, he would get more Democrats to vote for him than Republicans.

It's funny that you think Trump himself created it instead of the image that led to him being in the WH being created for him. TV shows, a speaking tour across the country at state GOP conventions a couple years before he declared for President, among others. His status was created via a coordinated plan put together by the banker's think tanks like the british Tavistock Institute. It's always about -how to sell the pre-planned outcome- and is planned years in advance.

Remember when Obama landed in the IL State Senate as a nobody and only because the incumbent was outed as being an adulterer right before the election and had to drop out? Then he was given major media attention as a keynote speaker at the DNC and landed immediately afterward into the US Senate? Then the media turned him into the second coming of Jesus for 2008? Pay attention to the history and you'll see that these people are placed into position, mainly via media coverage.

kahless
07-06-2019, 01:50 PM
It's funny that you think Trump himself created it instead of the image that led to him being in the WH being created for him. TV shows, a speaking tour across the country at state GOP conventions a couple years before he declared for President, among others. His status was created via a coordinated plan put together by the banker's think tanks like the british Tavistock Institute. It's always about -how to sell the pre-planned outcome- and is planned years in advance.

Remember when Obama landed in the IL State Senate as a nobody and only because the incumbent was outed as being an adulterer right before the election and had to drop out? Then he was given major media attention as a keynote speaker at the DNC and landed immediately afterward into the US Senate? Then the media turned him into the second coming of Jesus for 2008? Pay attention to the history and you'll see that these people are placed into position, mainly via media coverage.

I remember when Obama was running for Senate and the media portrayed him as a rock star. It was pretty clear back then he was hand picked to be President some day.

devil21
07-06-2019, 01:54 PM
I remember when Obama was running for Senate and the media portrayed him as a rock star. It was pretty clear back then he was hand picked to be President some day.

They all are. Hence the notion of this being a simulation, the Matrix. All pre-planned. Even Roosevelt (iirc) stated that it's all planned in politics, nothing happens (that you're made aware of, at least) by accident.

Sammy
07-06-2019, 02:02 PM
I am surprised to hear that from someone who has good old Pat as his avatar who I am big fan of. They share practically nothing in common and are polar opposites on trade, the border, immigration and culture. Pat is more hardcore than Trump on these issues. If Pat was President one can only imagine how triggered Amash would be.

I don't agree with Amash on immigration. Libertarians & Paleoconservatives agree on 80%. They only disagree on immigration,Trade & Social issues.
Nice to see people here that like Pat Buchanan:up:

RonZeplin
07-06-2019, 02:06 PM
Food for thought.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D677DKjXYAUgYIz.png
https://scontent-frt3-2.cdninstagram.com/vp/200b8d8b9d1b542b60dfb58d6408a7aa/5DC62BB8/t51.2885-15/e35/s240x240/60690876_805383346513750_6904406540435529120_n.jpg ?_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.cdninstagram.com&ig_cache_key=MjA1NTY2MjYyNDA1MDY5NDI0MQ%3D%3D.2

kahless
07-06-2019, 02:32 PM
They all are. Hence the notion of this being a simulation, the Matrix. All pre-planned. Even Roosevelt (iirc) stated that it's all planned in politics, nothing happens (that you're made aware of, at least) by accident.

Either that or the news media does a great job in brainwashing the masses. I said back then to people give it a few years, we will have Hillary and Obama running for President. The response was typically oh common that is ridiculous, not going to happen. But I thought it was so obvious from the media cheer leading to the extreme years in advance as if setting it up. Every time they do this it is obvious what is on the horizon.

I thought the same about Trump back then even after his failed Reform Party that give it 15 years. But after watching the bus incident live in 2008 I think, I thought he had no future chance. It was weird the media waited so long during the campaign and made such a big deal about it being some kind of new discovery. This when I could remember it clearly like it was yesterday the whole time. Same crap with Ron's newsletters every 4 years, "new discovery". All such a sham.

Same when Pat Buchanan was running, just waiting for the media to play the Nazi card. So frustrating to watch people fall for it. It is like how the hell can people fall for this stuff when if you watch the news media they are so obvious with their intentions well in advance.

kahless
07-06-2019, 02:46 PM
I don't agree with Amash on immigration. Libertarians & Paleoconservatives agree on 80%. They only disagree on immigration,Trade & Social issues.
Nice to see people here that like Pat Buchanan:up:

There are quite a few us here. RPF is like a refugee camp for the Buchanan Brigades. :happy:

Krugminator2
07-06-2019, 02:49 PM
Food for thought.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D677DKjXYAUgYIz.png



I highly doubt that this is significantly harming his family's business but if they are, is his response wrong? Classical liberals want the boot of government off their neck.

I would be furious if government were harming me. Protectionist tariffs are immoral and disgusting. Free trade is the foreign policy of a capitalist society.

nobody's_hero
07-06-2019, 03:03 PM
Same when Pat Buchanan was running, just waiting for the media to play the Nazi card. So frustrating to watch people fall for it. It is like how the hell can people fall for this stuff when if you watch the news media they are so obvious with their intentions well in advance.

We're gonna regret that we didn't continue to kick the media when they were down. LOOOONG after Trump is gone, the real threat will remain.

PAF
07-06-2019, 03:03 PM
I don't agree with Amash on immigration. Libertarians & Paleoconservatives agree on 80%. They only disagree on immigration,Trade & Social issues.
Nice to see people here that like Pat Buchanan:up:

Actually, RPF, as of late, has become everything other than “Ron Paul” Forums, and in favor of the very restrictionist policies that have caused our liberties to deteriorate over time.

Ron Paul, Justin Amash, Walter Block, etc... the very people who stand on principle seem to have little impact, or place here anymore.

kahless
07-06-2019, 03:11 PM
I highly doubt that this is significantly harming his family's business but if they are, is his response wrong? Classical liberals want the boot of government off their neck.

I would be furious if government were harming me. Protectionist tariffs are immoral and disgusting. Free trade is the foreign policy of a capitalist society.

But it is ok for a foreign adversary to do so to your own country men? A libertarian like society is not possible with competing political systems that wish to control, own and destroy you. I agree if we call free trade a nationalist policy in a capitalist society within our own borders.

familydog
07-06-2019, 03:32 PM
I am genuinely curious. Are you positing that you have or will have done more in impeding or rolling back, say, the police state in your entire life than Justin Amash has done in eight years?

I wasn't positing one way or the other. However, I could make the case that he has not done more than I in advancing the cause of liberty. Give it a couple of years (if that) and very few people outside of this movement will remember Justin Amash existed.


If you want to say that it was stupid of Amash for doing what he did- there is no question there is an argument to be made. But to act like Trump isn't actively destroying freedom (anti-free trade, anti-2nd Amendment, drone war escalation, etc.) while Justin Amash has spent his time in Congress actively being a wrench in the gears is downright special. The man camped out numerous times to ensure that bills were not passed in secret. Not because he had to or because it was politically convenient, I'd add.

I would never argue that Trump passes the liberty purity test. However, he can't destroy what does not exist. The spirit of '76 died in 1865. He is simply carrying the torch for the status quo. However, I am not so biased that I cannot congratulate him on the few good things he has accomplished.


You don't think Trump should be indicted/impeached for Obstruction of Justice? Cool. Neither do I. He ought to be tried as a war criminal. I piss obstructions.

Look, Trump is an imperialist president. There are only a few presidents since the end of the War of Southern Independence that weren't. Trump could be impeached for any number of things. US military action in Yemen is a great start. However, Justin Amash decided it was more important to virtue signal to the left than actually stand up for liberty.

Krugminator2
07-06-2019, 03:34 PM
But it is ok for a foreign adversary to do so to your own country men? A libertarian like society is not possible with competing political systems that wish to control, own and destroy you. I agree if we call free trade a nationalist policy in a capitalist society within our own borders.


China is a tough case. I do think China should be retaliated against. They steal secrets and American intellectual property.

But let's be in reality this isn't about China. The litmus is about tariffs against countries like Canada or even Mexico? Do you think auto makers should be penalized for making things in Mexico? There is no justification for protectionist tariffs ever.

sylcfh
07-06-2019, 03:54 PM
China is a tough case. I do think China should be retaliated against. They steal secrets and American intellectual property.



Who cares about deep state secrets? Intellectual property? Is this a libertarian forum or what?

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 03:57 PM
libertarians were losing long before Amash, and they'll be losing long after he's gone.

I think they invented losing .
They are certainly devoted to it.

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 04:02 PM
Actually, RPF, as of late, has become everything other than “Ron Paul” Forums, and in favor of the very restrictionist policies that have caused our liberties to deteriorate over time.

Ron Paul, Justin Amash, Walter Block, etc... the very people who stand on principle seem to have little impact, or place here anymore.
No, it is policies like wide open borders, excessive immigration and collaborationist "free" trade with communists intent on destroying our economy that have caused our liberties to deteriorate over time.

kahless
07-06-2019, 04:05 PM
China is a tough case. I do think China should be retaliated against. They steal secrets and American intellectual property.

But let's be in reality this isn't about China. The litmus is about tariffs against countries like Canada or even Mexico? Do you think auto makers should be penalized for making things in Mexico? There is no justification for protectionist tariffs ever.

America and Americans first. There will be no libertarian society because too many libertarians have been trained to believe exactly what you said in that last sentence. This results in destruction within our borders and ensures people seek government intervention, worse civil strife as a means of intervention and/or advocate for opposing political systems.

A libertarian society is only workable within a bordered protected region or if the entire planet was without borders, countries and the adhered to libertarian form of society (obviously silly and not possible)

chudrockz
07-06-2019, 04:06 PM
No, it is policies like wide open borders, excessive immigration and collaborationist "free" trade with communists intent on destroying our economy that have caused our liberties to deteriorate over time.

Right. And thus, in order to increase freedom, we must first restrict and regulate it. Said every tyrant ever.

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 04:09 PM
Right. And thus, in order to increase freedom, we must first restrict and regulate it. Said every tyrant ever.
Restrictions on those who would violate our rights is the definition of freedom.
Rolling over and letting tyrants tyrannize you isn't liberty.

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 04:10 PM
America and Americans first. There will be no libertarian society because too many libertarians have been trained to believe exactly what you said in that last sentence. This results in destruction within our borders and ensures people seek government intervention, worse civil strife as a means of intervention and/or advocate for opposing political systems.

A libertarian society is only workable within a bordered protected region or if the entire planet was without borders, countries and the adhered to libertarian form of society (obviously silly and not possible)
Cash register libertarians LOVE foreign government intervention in the marketplace until it takes their job.

chudrockz
07-06-2019, 04:12 PM
Restrictions on those who would violate our rights is the definition of freedom.
Rolling over and letting tyrants tyrannize you isn't liberty.

We recently had our roof redone. The work was done entirely by Mexicans. Some of them (gasp) might have been here illegally! I don't give a rat's behind. I have a nice new roof at a decent price, and none of them infringed on my freedom one bit.

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 04:14 PM
We recently had our roof redone. The work was done entirely by Mexicans. Some of them (gasp) might have been here illegally! I don't give a rat's behind. I have a nice new roof at a decent price, and none of them infringed on my freedom one bit.
I can guarantee you that some of them most certainly have.

Thank you for putting money above liberty, the founding fathers would be so proud.

chudrockz
07-06-2019, 04:22 PM
http://i68.tinypic.com/fducs6.jpg

UWDude
07-06-2019, 04:24 PM
http://i68.tinypic.com/fducs6.jpg


open borders seemed to work put fine for the natives. Look at all the wasteland they have now!

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 04:25 PM
http://i68.tinypic.com/fducs6.jpg

How'd it work out for them?

We can't even ask many of the tribes that were simply erased from existence.

UWDude
07-06-2019, 04:28 PM
How'd it work out for them?

We can't even ask many of the tribes that were simply erased from existence.

cheap cigarettes and cheap roofing = freedom

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 04:30 PM
cheap cigarettes and cheap roofing = freedom
And the leftarians think they are so different from their leftist brethren who think free stuff = freedom. :rolleyes:

chudrockz
07-06-2019, 04:30 PM
How'd it work out for them?

We can't even ask many of the tribes that were simply erased from existence.

So you're all packed and ready to go?

Krugminator2
07-06-2019, 04:41 PM
America and Americans first. There will be no libertarian society because too many libertarians have been trained to believe exactly what you said in that last sentence. This results in destruction within our borders and ensures people seek government intervention, worse civil strife as a means of intervention and/or advocate for opposing political systems.

A libertarian society is only workable within a bordered protected region or if the entire planet was without borders, countries and the adhered to libertarian form of society (obviously silly and not possible)

It is indisputably true tariffs make the country poorer?

How does making the country poorer benefit the country and make it more libertarian?

Think about how crazy protectionism is. How would an isolated country like New Zealand thrive if they had to make all their own stuff?

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 05:02 PM
It is indisputably true tariffs make the country poorer?
No, it is not.


How does making the country poorer benefit the country and make it more libertarian?
If it makes us poorer (not clear) but it keeps foreign governments from manipulating our economy and politics to destroy liberty it is a net benefit to liberty.


Think about how crazy protectionism is. How would an isolated country like New Zealand thrive if they had to make all their own stuff?
Nobody said we shouldn't trade with anyone for anything, you are doing the same thing as all the people who accused Ron of being "ISOLATIONIST" or the pacifists that accuse people who defend themselves of being "VIOLENT".

Krugminator2
07-06-2019, 05:33 PM
Who cares about deep state secrets? Intellectual property? Is this a libertarian forum or what?

I am a libertarian/classical liberal. I do not think it should be easy for a totalitarian nuclear power to access US secrets. See. The United States is a fundamentally good country. China is a fundamentally bad country. I don't want to see fundamentally bad countries, especially ones who are surpassing the US in GDP and confiscate a lot of that GDP for the government's coffers, gain more power. A world where China has more influence is a less free world. A world where the US has more power is a more free world. See the past 250 years of world history.

I am a libertarian/classical liberal. I do not think hacking US tech companies who do business in China is a legitimate function of government. I don't think forcing US tech to hand over proprietary technology as a precondition to doing business is a legitimate function of government. I do think protecting companies from that theft is a legitimate function. Not to mention, I support intellectual property, which is also libertarian. It is only a small sect of Rothtards who oppose it.

Krugminator2
07-06-2019, 05:39 PM
No, it is not.

Trade is win-win. It only happens if both side benefit. So anything that reduces win-win situations makes people poorer. If China makes something cheaper and the US consumer chooses it, then that is what should happen. It logically has to make the US wealthier. It can't be any other way.





Nobody said we shouldn't trade with anyone for anything, you are doing the same thing as all the people who accused Ron of being "ISOLATIONIST" or the pacifists that accuse people who defend themselves of being "VIOLENT".

You come pretty close and I am not going to spend ten hours looking for the post but you actually did say something to the effect. Your whole thing is about how important it is for the US to manufacture more stuff. Pat Buchanan certainly says that garbage and I see people praising him in this thread. Regardless, using tariffs to prop up uncompetitive industries is welfare and reduces US productivity.

PAF
07-06-2019, 05:41 PM
cheap cigarettes and cheap roofing = freedom

Exactly. Freedom of choice, if I decide to buy a fine cigar, or a better roof if it is actually needed. Though typically, I do my own roofing.

You and government do not know what is best for me. Even if you think or actually believe that you do.

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 05:48 PM
Trade is win-win. It only happens if both side benefit. So anything that reduces win-win situations makes people poorer. If China makes something cheaper and the US consumer chooses it, then that is what should happen. It logically has to make the US wealthier. It can't be any other way.
That's not absolutely true, if one side reduces the other to a welfare dependent the dependent loses wealth and liberty.







You come pretty close and I am not going to spend ten hours looking for the post but you actually did say something to the effect. Your whole thing is about how important it is for the US to manufacture more stuff. Pat Buchanan certainly says that garbage and I see people praising him in this thread. Regardless, using tariffs to prop up uncompetitive industries is welfare and reduces US productivity.
Allowing foreign governments to prop up uncompetitve industries and put our competitive industries out of business reduces US productivity and independence while reducing our people to welfare trash that look to government for their needs.

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 05:48 PM
Exactly. Freedom of choice, if I decide to buy a fine cigar, or a better roof if it is actually needed. Though typically, I do my own roofing.

You and government do not know what is best for me. Even if you think or actually believe that you do.
You are trading cheap stuff for allowing in the people who think government does know best about EVERYTHING.

UWDude
07-06-2019, 06:14 PM
Exactly. Freedom of choice, if I decide to buy a fine cigar, or a better roof if it is actually needed. Though typically, I do my own roofing.

You and government do not know what is best for me. Even if you think or actually believe that you do.

and all the natives had to give up for cheap cigarettes is their land, culture and freedom.
Yeah, life on the rez is freedom. Take that xenophobic aggressors who were not open and welcoming of the white man... ...natives got casinos, cigarettes, and the right to sell fireworks in celebration of the country that brought them cigarettes, casinos, a fireworks stand and thousands of square miles of wasteland.

And don't forget the condescending sympathies of the white liberals. That counts for a lot these days.

natives got culturally enriched.

PAF
07-06-2019, 06:18 PM
and all the natives had to give up for cheap cigarettes is their land, culture and freedom.
Yeah, life on the rez is freedom. Take that xenophobic aggressors who were not open and welcoming of the white man... ...natives got casinos, cigarettes, and the right to sell fireworks in celebration of the country that brought them cigarettes, casinos, a fireworks stand and thousands of square miles of wasteland.

And don't forget the condescending sympathies of the white liberals. That counts for a lot these days.

You guys really should come to a decision.

You do not like to talk about reparation. But when it suits you, you bring up the olden days of native Indians.

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 06:20 PM
You guys really should come to a decision.

You do not like to talk about reparation. But when it suits you, you bring up the olden days of native Indians.
We don't need to pay for the sins of others nor do we need to repeat the failures of others.

It's nice to see you expose your hidden agenda though.

jkr
07-06-2019, 06:21 PM
...sounds g00d

lets dew it!

UWDude
07-06-2019, 06:23 PM
You guys really should come to a decision.

You do not like to talk about reparation. But when it suits you, you bring up the olden days of native Indians.

i didnt bring up the natives, one of your buddies did.

PAF
07-06-2019, 06:29 PM
We don't need to pay for the sins of others nor do we need to repeat the failures of others.

It's nice to see you expose your hidden agenda though.

I never condoned nor rejected it. There is no hidden agenda to be had. I merely suggested you guys come to a consensus. But, as long as it fulfills your agenda, standing in principle is not that important.


My favorite part is "endowed by their creator".

If rights come from anywhere else then they aren't really rights.

PAF
07-06-2019, 06:31 PM
i didnt bring up the natives, one of your buddies did.

Post #142 in our conversation.

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 06:33 PM
I never condoned nor rejected it. There is no hidden agenda to be had. I merely suggested you guys come to a consensus. But, as long as it fulfills your agenda, standing in principle is not that important.
Your hidden agenda is to import enough communists to extract "reparations" from people like me.

There is a consensus:


We don't need to pay for the sins of others nor do we need to repeat the failures of others.


I'm the one standing on principle and defending the rights of Americans, the invaders would be wise to defend their rights in their countries instead of coming here and destroying mine.

jkr
07-06-2019, 06:33 PM
HEY!


HAS ANYONE SCREAMED THE CENTER MUST HOLD!!

??

UWDude
07-06-2019, 06:35 PM
Post #142 in our conversation.

post #129 fool

PAF
07-06-2019, 06:43 PM
post #129 fool

Why call me a fool? I specifically said "in our conversation" - not others.

As I said, whatever suits you guys lol

UWDude
07-06-2019, 06:44 PM
Why call me a fool? I specifically said "in our conversation" - not others.

As I said, whatever suits you guys lol

because you waste my time with idiocy.

Cleaner44
07-06-2019, 07:27 PM
Justin Amash has one of the best voting records in D.C....He will not be re-elected.
My feeling is that he is going to run for President & this could cost Trump the election.

Just who is it that you picture voting for him?

I would estimate Amash's chances of costing Trump the election are about 0%.

pcosmar
07-06-2019, 10:37 PM
People still think that working within the GOP means you're automatically selling out and letting them use you. It's absolutely unfathomable for some folks to think it is possible to use the GOP. I don't see why we couldn't. Hell, we already have. Ron used the GOP. Rand used the GOP. Even Amash used the GOP. The neocons have been using the GOP (and the Democratic party) at least since Rockefeller. We're just politically incompetent. That's our biggest problem.

Its not the "using the GOP".. that is a problem..

It is the Being used by the GOP that is a problem...

ongoing and continuous.

pcosmar
07-06-2019, 10:43 PM
Just who is it that you picture voting for him?



It was Democrats that Elected Trump..

I spoke to several Democrat Wheat Farmers in oregon at the time..

they voted trump because they could not stand Hillary..
Hillary Got Trump Elected..

https://static01.********/images/2016/11/06/magazine/06clintontrump1/06clintontrump1-facebookJumbo.jpg

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 10:45 PM
It was Democrats that Elected Trump..

I spoke to several Democrat Wheat Farmers in oregon at the time..

they voted trump because they could not stand Hillary..
Hillary Got Trump Elected..

https://static01.********/images/2016/11/06/magazine/06clintontrump1/06clintontrump1-facebookJumbo.jpg

Oregon's electors went to Trump?

kahless
07-06-2019, 10:47 PM
Just who is it that you picture voting for him?

I would estimate Amash's chances of costing Trump the election are about 0%.

A little higher, something like 1%, Democratic party .75 Neocons and .25% from beltway Republicans (Neocons).

pcosmar
07-06-2019, 10:51 PM
Oregon's electors went to Trump?

I was located in Oregon at the time of the election.

Democrats Voted for Trump..

a whole lot of Republicans did not.

Swordsmyth
07-06-2019, 10:58 PM
I was located in Oregon at the time of the election.

Democrats Voted for Trump..

a whole lot of Republicans did not.
A few Democrats maybe, and some Republicans didn't, a whole lot of people who had given up voting voted for Trump.

This time there will be more Republicans voting for him.

enhanced_deficit
07-06-2019, 11:25 PM
He appears more anti Deep-Zionism.

He is not perfect and bit too purist against globalism... but still appears far more principled than globalist GOP-Adelson which likes of Bannon saw as GOP-Democrats. With neocons-funded pro-war democrats masquerading as 'conservatives' pushing debt financed big gummit spending and globalist wars agenda, it is puzzling why rest of so called Republicans and Conservatives are not speaking up?
He may have been bit too purist this week but if his principles guided him to leave party of 'small minded' neocons (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?534111-Dems-Party-of-big-gummit-GOP-Party-of-small-minds&p=6791410&viewfull=1#post6791410), that's his prerogative. Freedom can be messy sometimes.

Pragmatically, GOP-MAGA wing looks to be finished after 2020 with high risk of its funding drying up (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?536149-Increasing-risk-of-both-Biden-and-Trump-losing-top-donors-and-2020-races&p=6820358&viewfull=1#post6820358), does GOP have alternate leadership ready or independents like Amash/new faces will rise up to take charge of what can be salvaged of left-wing neocons ravaged GOP?

Cleaner44
07-07-2019, 07:32 AM
It was Democrats that Elected Trump..

I spoke to several Democrat Wheat Farmers in oregon at the time..

they voted trump because they could not stand Hillary..
Hillary Got Trump Elected..

https://static01.********/images/2016/11/06/magazine/06clintontrump1/06clintontrump1-facebookJumbo.jpg

Clearly that was a big part of it. Trump also won over mid-western union types.

devil21
07-07-2019, 11:05 AM
Its not the "using the GOP".. that is a problem..

It is the Being used by the GOP that is a problem...

ongoing and continuous.

Yep, just a few weeks ago the NCGOP establishment used electronic voting shenanigans to install their chosen candidate into the State Chair, over the grassroots supported candidate. This is only a couple months after the outgoing Chair was indicted for bribery.

They want your money and your votes but not your candidates who may change their grifting business model.

Ender
07-07-2019, 01:28 PM
Trade is win-win. It only happens if both side benefit. So anything that reduces win-win situations makes people poorer. If China makes something cheaper and the US consumer chooses it, then that is what should happen. It logically has to make the US wealthier. It can't be any other way.




You come pretty close and I am not going to spend ten hours looking for the post but you actually did say something to the effect. Your whole thing is about how important it is for the US to manufacture more stuff. Pat Buchanan certainly says that garbage and I see people praising him in this thread. Regardless, using tariffs to prop up uncompetitive industries is welfare and reduces US productivity.

WHOA. Somebody still on the forum who understands real capitalism- thank you!!!

UWDude
07-07-2019, 01:39 PM
WHOA. Somebody still on the forum who understands real capitalism- thank you!!!


China subsidizing their industries and putting tariffs on American imports is "real capitalism" now.

kcchiefs6465
07-07-2019, 02:30 PM
China subsidizing their industries and putting tariffs on American imports is "real capitalism" now.
What does that have to do with buying things more cheaply?

Swordsmyth
07-07-2019, 04:05 PM
What does that have to do with buying things more cheaply?

You are accepting welfare from a communist government that is engaging in economic warfare against your country in order to turn it into a communist hellhole full of welfare bums.

jmdrake
07-07-2019, 04:41 PM
Ex 1. Trump says the govt is shut down until I get wall in budget. A month later Trump approves budget with no wall funds.

Ex 2. Trump says I'm leaving Syria asap. Retracts/qualifies statement, and 6 months later still in Syria

Ex. 3 Trump campaigns on Afgh/Iraq being mistakes. Appoints John Bolton...

I could go on, but these are examples of Trump's 45% pragmatism 55% idealism, and the majority of everyone here (maybe not Swordsmyth) has been pissed when he's done it.

Ex 4. Iran downs drone, Trump does not retaliate with force even though it was advised.

Trump possibly went 100% idealism with that. Everyone loved it.

I was with you until Ex 4. Trump wiggling his way out of an Iran strike was a boss move. And everyone here knows I'm not a Trump fan. But I will give credit where credit is due and this is an example. First by saying "I'm sure someone in Iran made a mistake" he offered a face saving way out for everyone. Iran just had to keep their mouths shut, which they did, and Trump could say "See? They didn't mean it. If they did they would have said something."

This is my Ex 4: He said he supported the 2nd amendment then he did the bumpfire stock ban and hinted that he would support Dianne Feinstein's assault weapons ban.

kcchiefs6465
07-07-2019, 09:31 PM
You are accepting welfare from a communist government that is engaging in economic warfare against your country in order to turn it into a communist hellhole full of welfare bums.
That's a bit of a stretch.

It makes no difference if another country is subsidizing a particular industry or industry in general. The US purchasing items for cheaper than it would cost to manufacture here is ALWAYS an economic positive.

You see the industries here which might be affected or become unprofitable due to as much. It is still an economic positive even if said industry cannot compete whatsoever.

Why? Because that industry or those workers within that industry could be doing Something Else. That is to say, they could be pursuing things that are more economically sensible.

What you are really calling for is socialist like protectionist policies and welfarism which prop up American industries..... thus..... working towards turning this country into a communist hellhole full of welfare bums.

shakey1
07-07-2019, 09:54 PM
I was located in Oregon at the time of the election.

Democrats Voted for Trump..

a whole lot of Republicans did not.

So, a whole lot of republicans did not vote?

Mach
07-07-2019, 10:17 PM
Amash is just stunting, because he is planning on running as an Independent in 2020.

Anybody that wants open borders is for the end of borders and individual countries.... snewrldrdr....

https://reason.com/2019/07/04/justin-amash-declares-independence-from-republican-party/#comments

Swordsmyth
07-07-2019, 10:51 PM
That's a bit of a stretch.

It makes no difference if another country is subsidizing a particular industry or industry in general. The US purchasing items for cheaper than it would cost to manufacture here is ALWAYS an economic positive.

You see the industries here which might be affected or become unprofitable due to as much. It is still an economic positive even if said industry cannot compete whatsoever.

Why? Because that industry or those workers within that industry could be doing Something Else. That is to say, they could be pursuing things that are more economically sensible.

What you are really calling for is socialist like protectionist policies and welfarism which prop up American industries..... thus..... working towards turning this country into a communist hellhole full of welfare bums.
You could say the same thing about our government and you would be wrong just like you are about a foreign government, government intervention from any government sends false signals to the market and causes misallocation of resources that makes everyone poorer, when it it targeted as part of economic warfare it can destroy the country it is aimed at.

kcchiefs6465
07-07-2019, 11:52 PM
You could say the same thing about our government and you would be wrong just like you are about a foreign government, government intervention from any government sends false signals to the market and causes misallocation of resources that makes everyone poorer, when it it targeted as part of economic warfare it can destroy the country it is aimed at.
You could argue that the misallocation of resources makes that country poorer, or that the world economy as a whole is less prosperous, but it does not follow that the US economy in particular is worse off due to cheaper products being made available through a foreign country.

What I assume you are getting at is that if all of the production of a particular item is made cheaply (even artificially) in one country overseas ensuring that investment or opportunity to produce said product here is not realized, that then the foreign country could cease trading with the United States and 'we' could be crippled by the lack of said item (say precious mineral refinement).

There are a couple of points I'd make on that topic.

First, what incentive would they have to arbitrarily stop trading absent their government's interference?

Really, none.

If they exhausted their depositories or failed due to central planning, are we not better off by having acquired said minerals etc. for the lower cost while it lasted?

So then I would move to say, "And what if their government does interfere?" Or what if they fail or are suddenly unable to provide said good or service?

There will be a correction, of sorts, where capital allocation would shift to fill the void of said product not being readily made within our own borders. Prices would rise to entice new market entry and once an equilibrium was reached, prices would stabilize and life would continue as normal. It does not make economic sense to pay more for an item now on the possibility that said item will be made unavailable due to nefarious actors or poor business decisions in the future.

You capitalize on the lower product costs and make products or provide services which make the most economic sense.

That is to say, the best (cheapest while maintaining quality controls) person (or country) for the job ought to do the job.

Economic warfarism is sanctions and blockades. Not "flooding" a country with cheap products.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 12:03 AM
You could argue that the misallocation of resources makes that country poorer, or that the world economy as a whole is less prosperous, but it does not follow that the US economy in particular is worse off due to cheaper products being made available through a foreign country.

What I assume you are getting at is that if all of the production of a particular item is made cheaply (even artificially) in one country overseas ensuring that investment or opportunity to produce said product here is not realized, that then the foreign country could cease trading with the United States and 'we' could be crippled by the lack of said item (say precious mineral refinement).

There are a couple of points I'd make on that topic.

First, what incentive would they have to arbitrarily stop trading absent their government's interference?

Really, none.

If they exhausted their depositories or failed due to central planning, are we not better off by having acquired said minerals etc. for the lower cost while it lasted?

So then I would move to say, "And what if their government does interfere?" Or what if they fail or are suddenly unable to provide said good or service?

There will be a correction, of sorts, where capital allocation would shift to fill the void of said product not being readily made within our own borders. Prices would rise to entice new market entry and once an equilibrium was reached, prices would stabilize and life would continue as normal. It does not make economic sense to pay more for an item now on the possibility that said item will be made unavailable due to nefarious actors or poor business decisions in the future.

You capitalize on the lower product costs and make products or provide services which make the most economic sense.

That is to say, the best (cheapest while maintaining quality controls) person (or country) for the job ought to do the job.

Economic warfarism is sanctions and blockades. Not "flooding" a country with cheap products.
If you have been de-industrialized you can't just switch back to making the things you need and what's worse your people may have become dependent on government for their needs and created a socialist/communist system that is bad for your economy.

You can most certainly use dumping for economic warfare and China does sanction and blockade our exports to China as part of their campaign.

Government interference in the marketplace is never good, not even when it is a foreign government, the benefits to a few don't make up for the damage to everyone else that takes place both when the subsidization takes places and when it stops due to deliberate action or because the foreign government collapses due to its communism.

You are also accepting stolen goods and that is wrong.

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 12:20 AM
If you have been de-industrialized you can't just switch back to making the things you need and what's worse your people may have become dependent on government for their needs and created a socialist/communist system that is bad for your economy.
There would be a correction period of sorts but people are resilient and I have no doubt production would shift to meet needs rather quickly. Look at the war production which occurred during WWII. Perhaps apples and oranges but in my opinion it tells a larger story. If it is the difference between, at its extreme, starving, or, (and forgive my language) figuring it the fuck out, I would be willing to bet that "they" (the market, or rather certain market actors) "figure it the fuck out." It can be an uncomfortable realization that we all rely on each other but really it is not all that unpredictable.

It also does not follow that a country's business or governmental practices creates a socialist or communist system here (or even that people will become dependent on government).

First, if the incentive wasn't there, the pervasiveness of such things would not exist.

Second, what you advocate for, by a strict or honest definition of socialism, is socialist. It certainly doesn't make us less socialist to take from all to prop up given industry. It is almost like the excuse is the rule (they subsidize farmers or tax/restrict import of agriculture so then 'we' socialize the cost of keeping the farmer above water). And to be clear, the farmers have been subsidized since.... FDR?


You can most certainly use dumping for economic warfare and China does sanction and blockade our exports to China as part of their campaign.
There are other countries which will accept the products.



Government interference in the marketplace is never good, not even when it is a foreign government, the benefits to a few don't make up for the damage to everyone else that takes place both when the subsidization takes places and when it stops due to deliberate action or because the foreign government collapses due to its communism.
I agree. What 'we' control (but not really) is the US. We ought to start here as far as removing government interference from the marketplace.


You are also accepting stolen goods and that is wrong.
Copied software or counterfeit goods? I'm not too sure what you are referring to.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 12:36 AM
There would be a correction period of sorts but people are resilient and I have no doubt production would shift to meet needs rather quickly. Look at the war production which occurred during WWII. Perhaps apples and oranges but in my opinion it tells a larger story. If it is the difference between, at its extreme, starving, or, (and forgive my language) figuring it the $#@! out, I would be willing to bet that "they" (the market, or rather certain market actors) "figure it the $#@! out." It can be an uncomfortable realization that we all rely on each other but really it is not all that unpredictable.
We had the industrial capacity to expand our industrial capacity quickly back then, there is no comparison.
And you could be collapsed/conquered during the aftermath of being cut off not to mention the damage that was done to your citizens both when the foreign goods were subsidized and when they were cut off.


It also does not follow that a country's business or governmental practices creates a socialist or communist system here (or even that people will become dependent on government).
Yes it does, welfare (and that's what government subsidization is even if it is coming from a foreign government) creates dependency, we see it in the slums and we see it in America as the trade war has destroyed jobs.


First, if the incentive wasn't there, the pervasiveness of such things would not exist.
Poverty caused by economic warfare creates the incentive.


Second, what you advocate for, by a strict or honest definition of socialism, is socialist. It certainly doesn't make us less socialist to take from all to prop up given industry.
I don't advocate for that, I advocate for getting China to play fair, countering China's interventions in the market or having a free market without them.


It is almost like the excuse is the rule (they subsidize farmers or tax/restrict import of agriculture so then 'we' socialize the cost of keeping the farmer above water). And to be clear, the farmers have been subsidized since.... FDR?
We should not subsidize our farmers.



There are other countries which will accept the products.
Those countries would already be buying our products, at a minimum they have stolen American marketshare without paying for it with the marketshare our industries should have in China and they may have stolen our marketshare in other countries by subsidizing their own sales to them.



I agree. What 'we' control (but not really) is the US. We ought to start here as far as removing government interference from the marketplace.
We can control Chinese interference in our market and we should attack on all fronts at once to remove government interference.



Copied software or counterfeit goods? I'm not too sure what you are referring to.
I'm not talking about IP theft, the foreign government stole money from its people and from our industries to subsidize its exports and undermine our economy, accepting the subsidy is accepting stolen goods, no good can come of it.

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 01:31 AM
We had the industrial capacity to expand our industrial capacity quickly back then, there is no comparison.
And you could be collapsed/conquered during the aftermath of being cut off not to mention the damage that was done to your citizens both when the foreign goods were subsidized and when they were cut off.
These sound like non-issues to me. The country isn't going to be conquered, absent the collectivists who have conquered it. Having to spend more to purchase like American made items is only going to lead to more calls for socialism. Many are barely surviving now. The tariffs have consequences and one of them is, the most unable to pay these tariffs are baring the brunt of the policy. Their inclination more often than not is going to be to call for more government interference, i.e socialism.



Yes it does, welfare (and that's what government subsidization is even if it is coming from a foreign government) creates dependency, we see it in the slums and we see it in America as the trade war has destroyed jobs.
Government interference creates (or rather exasperates) dependency. You are calling for further government interference.

The jobs that were destroyed were destroyed by government interference i.e the trade war.

But they are going to fix it?

By how?

They are going to make the least able to pay, that much worse off by having to pay more for products they want to purchase?

And this will not lead to the DSSA?



Poverty caused by economic warfare creates the incentive.
What do you think of deficit spending as it compares to shady business practices of foreign government and overseas businesses?

Do you feel that spending a trillion dollars a year more than you bring in is more or less 'productive' as it relates to bringing about a populist socialist uprising than trade imbalances?



I don't advocate for that, I advocate for getting China to play fair, countering China's interventions in the market or having a free market without them.
Fair enough. And could I purchase from China if I wanted to? Or have my betters in Washington and elsewhere determined that I am incapable of transacting without their seal of approval? I might get ripped off, you know.



We should not subsidize our farmers.
Even in a trade war? If they go under and their equipment is not maintained, what are we to do if a country or countries stop trading agriculture to us?



Those countries would already be buying our products, at a minimum they have stolen American marketshare without paying for it with the marketshare our industries should have in China and they may have stolen our marketshare in other countries by subsidizing their own sales to them.
Sounds pretty communist to me.



We can control Chinese interference in our market and we should attack on all fronts at once to remove government interference.
You are not satisfied with simply not purchasing Chinese made goods? Everyone should be restricted?

Sounds pretty communist to me.



I'm not talking about IP theft, the foreign government stole money from its people and from our industries to subsidize its exports and undermine our economy, accepting the subsidy is accepting stolen goods, no good can come of it.
I wonder if the Chinese say the same things about our products?

Seems like there is an unneeded and common denominator between both scenarios.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 01:49 AM
These sound like non-issues to me. The country isn't going to be conquered, absent the collectivists who have conquered it.
It could collapse and it could be conquered by a communist revolution with foreign help.


Having to spend more to purchase like American made items is only going to lead to more calls for socialism. Many are barely surviving now. The tariffs have consequences and one of them is, the most unable to pay these tariffs are baring the brunt of the policy. Their inclination more often than not is going to be to call for more government interference, i.e socialism.
Getting decent jobs will cure what little there is of that but continuing to allow our economy to be hollowed out will guarantee poverty and communism in the long run.

You are saying that we shouldn't harm the patient by cutting him open to remove the cancerous tumor.



Government interference creates (or rather exasperates) dependency. You are calling for further government interference.
No, I am not, government action to counter enemy government interference reduce government interference.



The jobs that were destroyed were destroyed by government interference i.e the trade war.

But they are going to fix it?

By how?

They are going to make the least able to pay, that much worse off by having to pay more for products they want to purchase?

And this will not lead to the DSSA?

Eliminating the foreign government interference will reverse the damage done and we will be able to afford American made products and have wealth to spare as we did before the trade war.


What do you think of deficit spending as it compares to shady business practices of foreign government and overseas businesses?

Do you feel that spending a trillion dollars a year more than you bring in is more or less 'productive' as it relates to bringing about a populist socialist uprising than trade imbalances?
I am opposed to deficit spending but the Chinese do much more of it than we do.



Fair enough. And could I purchase from China if I wanted to? Or have my betters in Washington and elsewhere determined that I am incapable of transacting without their seal of approval? I might get ripped off, you know.
I prefer to negotiate an end to the trade war but if they refuse we can choose between countering their manipulations with tariffs (my 2nd preference) or banning trade with China in order to have a free market without their government intervention.



Even in a trade war? If they go under and their equipment is not maintained, what are we to do if a country or countries stop trading agriculture to us?
Our market will sustain enough agriculture to feed itself and if there was a problem we could enact strategic tariffs on food to preserve our independence so that we couldn't be blackmailed into giving up our rights by globalists.



Sounds pretty communist to me.
Then you don't know the meaning of the word.



You are not satisfied with simply not purchasing Chinese made goods? Everyone should be restricted?

Sounds pretty communist to me.
Proof you don't know the meaning of the word, war is always a collective endeavor because no individual can protect his rights by fighting one alone but it is not communist.



I wonder if the Chinese say the same things about our products?

Seems like there is an unneeded and common denominator between both scenarios.

We should indeed cease to subsidize any industries that we subsidize but the Chinese do far more of it than we do so it is not balanced out on both sides.

TheTexan
07-08-2019, 02:01 AM
These sound like non-issues to me. The country isn't going to be conquered, absent the collectivists who have conquered it. Having to spend more to purchase like American made items is only going to lead to more calls for socialism. Many are barely surviving now. The tariffs have consequences and one of them is, the most unable to pay these tariffs are baring the brunt of the policy. Their inclination more often than not is going to be to call for more government interference, i.e socialism.


Government interference creates (or rather exasperates) dependency. You are calling for further government interference.

The jobs that were destroyed were destroyed by government interference i.e the trade war.

But they are going to fix it?

By how?

They are going to make the least able to pay, that much worse off by having to pay more for products they want to purchase?

And this will not lead to the DSSA?


What do you think of deficit spending as it compares to shady business practices of foreign government and overseas businesses?

Do you feel that spending a trillion dollars a year more than you bring in is more or less 'productive' as it relates to bringing about a populist socialist uprising than trade imbalances?


Fair enough. And could I purchase from China if I wanted to? Or have my betters in Washington and elsewhere determined that I am incapable of transacting without their seal of approval? I might get ripped off, you know.


Even in a trade war? If they go under and their equipment is not maintained, what are we to do if a country or countries stop trading agriculture to us?


Sounds pretty communist to me.


You are not satisfied with simply not purchasing Chinese made goods? Everyone should be restricted?

Sounds pretty communist to me.


I wonder if the Chinese say the same things about our products?

Seems like there is an unneeded and common denominator between both scenarios.

China is making our country weaker by selling us things for cheaper than it's really worth.

This is the same reason why I don't accept free samples at the grocery store. I only buy brands that are NOT giving away free samples, because their unfair tricks & marketing practices are unsustainable and I would be harming only myself by supporting them.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 02:05 AM
China is making our country weaker by selling us things for cheaper than it's really worth.

This is the same reason why I don't accept free samples at the grocery store. I only buy brands that are NOT giving away free samples, because their unfair tricks & marketing practices are unsustainable and I would be harming only myself by supporting them.
If you quit your job and went on welfare you would be much weaker and dependent, that's what is happening to America, we are getting long term welfare from China and losing our productive employment.

TheTexan
07-08-2019, 02:06 AM
You are accepting welfare from a communist government

-rep just because the US gives me food stamps, SNAP, housing assistance, medicaid, and a free phone, that doesn't mean the US is a communist government.

edit: Nevermind I mis-read your post, thought you were talking about the US

TheTexan
07-08-2019, 02:07 AM
If you quit your job and went on welfare you would be much weaker and dependent, that's what is happening to America, we are getting long term welfare from China and losing our productive employment.

If subsidizing their industries is so good for the long-term, maybe we should do more of it? I think right now we primarily only subsidize farm stuff, but we could definitely subsidize a whole lot more.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 02:13 AM
If subsidizing their industries is so good for the long-term, maybe we should do more of it? I think right now we primarily only subsidize farm stuff, but we could definitely subsidize a whole lot more.
It is bad for them in the long term too but since they are targeting us they will destroy us before they collapse if we don't fight back.

All wars are like that, the country waging the war wastes resources and will eventually destroy itself if it doesn't win and steal enough wealth to pay for the war but the target is destroyed much faster if it doesn't fight back.

TheTexan
07-08-2019, 02:18 AM
It is bad for them in the long term too but since they are targeting us they will destroy us before they collapse if we don't fight back.

All wars are like that, the country waging the war wastes resources and will eventually destroy itself if it doesn't win and steal enough wealth to pay for the war but the target is destroyed much faster if it doesn't fight back.

War on drugs
War on terror
War on cheap chinese shit

We will win this war like we do every war because the US is awesome :cool:

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 02:25 AM
War on drugs
War on terror
War on cheap chinese $#@!

We will win this war like we do every war because the US is awesome :cool:
Not all wars are the same, the Texicans had to defend themselves against Santa Anna and we must defend ourselves against the ChiComs.

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 02:39 AM
It could collapse and it could be conquered by a communist revolution with foreign help.


Getting decent jobs will cure what little there is of that but continuing to allow our economy to be hollowed out will guarantee poverty and communism in the long run.

You are saying that we shouldn't harm the patient by cutting him open to remove the cancerous tumor.



No, I am not, government action to counter enemy government interference reduce government interference.



Eliminating the foreign government interference will reverse the damage done and we will be able to afford American made products and have wealth to spare as we did before the trade war.


I am opposed to deficit spending but the Chinese do much more of it than we do.



I prefer to negotiate an end to the trade war but if they refuse we can choose between countering their manipulations with tariffs (my 2nd preference) or banning trade with China in order to have a free market without their government intervention.



Our market will sustain enough agriculture to feed itself and if there was a problem we could enact strategic tariffs on food to preserve our independence so that we couldn't be blackmailed into giving up our rights by globalists.



Then you don't know the meaning of the word.



Proof you don't know the meaning of the word, war is always a collective endeavor because no individual can protect his rights by fighting one alone but it is not communist.




We should indeed cease to subsidize any industries that we subsidize but the Chinese do far more of it than we do so it is not balanced out on both sides.

This is why we cannot have nice things.

Your views are precisely as ignorant and counterproductive as the DSA's. You both are simply right until right until wrong.

I could and would go point by point again but I feel it is counterproductive to both of our time.

What I do want to make clear for anyone reading is this:



Fair enough. And could I purchase from China if I wanted to? Or have my betters in Washington and elsewhere determined that I am incapable of transacting without their seal of approval? I might get ripped off, you know.




I prefer to negotiate an end to the trade war but if they refuse we can choose between countering their manipulations with tariffs (my 2nd preference) or banning trade with China in order to have a free market without their government intervention.

How Swordsmyth thinks he has any authority to meddle in the trade of willing parties, well, that's a question only public schools could answer.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 02:46 AM
This is why we cannot have nice things.

Your views are precisely as ignorant and counterproductive as the DSA's. You both are simply right until right until wrong.

I could and would go point by point again but I feel it is counterproductive to both of our time.

What I do want to make clear for anyone reading is this:




How Swordsmyth thinks he has any authority to meddle in the trade of willing parties, well, that's a question only public schools could answer.
You are trading with the enemy, both the national and ideological enemy, in a time of trade warfare designed to destroy the country and impose communism, your fellow Americans certainly have the right to defend themselves by cancelling the trade warfare.

TheTexan
07-08-2019, 03:07 AM
You are trading with the enemy, both the national and ideological enemy, in a time of trade warfare designed to destroy the country and impose communism, your fellow Americans certainly have the right to defend themselves by cancelling the trade warfare.

This x1000. Sometimes we must interfere with the free market in order to protect the free market.

TheTexan
07-08-2019, 03:09 AM
Market manipulation is usually bad because it takes a lot of skill to manipulate it in a way that does more good than bad.

Only a master manipulator like Trump should be trusted with such things.

ThePaleoLibertarian
07-08-2019, 03:46 AM
Edit: Wrong thread

TheCount
07-08-2019, 05:39 AM
You are trading with the enemy, both the national and ideological enemy, in a time of trade warfare designed to destroy the country and impose communism, your fellow Americans certainly have the right to defend themselves by cancelling the trade warfare.

Citizen,

Analysis of your purchase history has detected potentially unpatriotic activity. The collective has automatically deducted an economic disloyalty fine from your banking account.

Further deviation from the collective's economic plan will result in a reduction of your citizen loyalty rating.


-Agent 076

PAF
07-08-2019, 05:58 AM
Citizen,

Analysis of your purchase history has detected potentially unpatriotic activity. The collective has automatically deducted an economic disloyalty fine from your banking account.

Further deviation from the collective's economic plan will result in a reduction of your citizen loyalty rating.


-Agent 076


Out of + Rep so here you go.

PAF
07-08-2019, 06:17 AM
This is why we cannot have nice things.

Your views are precisely as ignorant and counterproductive as the DSA's. You both are simply right until right until wrong.

I could and would go point by point again but I feel it is counterproductive to both of our time.

What I do want to make clear for anyone reading is this:




How Swordsmyth thinks he has any authority to meddle in the trade of willing parties, well, that's a question only public schools could answer.



I have pointed Swordy here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1957) a few times but he either simply ignores it, or twists it into things that just aren't so.

Ridding Common Core (such as Florida (https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-02-01/florida-eliminates-the-common-core-once-and-for-all)) was getting a little traction but it seriously needs to be a top priority.

kahless
07-08-2019, 08:55 AM
You are trading with the enemy, both the national and ideological enemy, in a time of trade warfare designed to destroy the country and impose communism, your fellow Americans certainly have the right to defend themselves by cancelling the trade warfare.

Exactly. I would give you rep for this but I am out, +1.

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 01:16 PM
You are trading with the enemy, both the national and ideological enemy, in a time of trade warfare designed to destroy the country and impose communism, your fellow Americans certainly have the right to defend themselves by cancelling the trade warfare.
This is my problem with Nationalists-- they are not content to simply follow their ideology or to use persuasion to convince others of their ideology's merits. They wish to use the force of government to force everyone to follow their ideologies.

It is no different from the communists, or socialists, or anyone else who is so smart that they know better than you what is best for you and by God, they are going to save you from yourself. Even if you do not want their saving!

It is an arrogant and destructive mindset and should be rejected by anyone who cherishes freedom.

I would be more than willing to say, those who wish not to purchase Chinese made products, for instance, ought to boycott Chinese made products. Those who wish to only purchase American made products, ought to do so.

But when it comes down to the simple question of if I can, well, why no, I can't. My political betters have determined that in order to keep me safe from predation, I need to pay a little more for comparable items or services depending on where they are made. Nevermind the politics of who is protected and what is not protected or the very basic economic premises which explain the value of free trade the Shepherds have spoken and I should be grateful that they care.

TheCount
07-08-2019, 02:04 PM
It is an arrogant and destructive mindset and should be rejected by anyone who cherishes freedom.

If you really cherished your freedom you'd give up your freedom in order to protect your freedom.

-Swordsmyth, probably

axiomata
07-08-2019, 02:22 PM
If you really cherished your freedom you'd give up your freedom in order to protect your freedom.

-Swordsmyth, probably

It makes sense. The foriegners won't be able to take our freedom if we give it up first.

kahless
07-08-2019, 02:41 PM
Disgusting how some here worship at the altar of free trade like it is a religion, enriching those that wish to destroy us and turning a blind eye to atrocities committed by their beloved Communist trading partner.

US reviews report of imports from forced labor in China camp.
https://apnews.com/2afaec4493ab4a049956a93168317645

China opens ‘re-education camps’ as UN claim 1 million people held – ‘Everyone is scared’
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1142632/china-news-xinjiang-education-camps-religion-united-nations-UN

China and forced organ harvesting: Cruelty on a massive scale
https://www.christianpost.com/voice/china-forced-organ-harvesting-cruelty-massive-scale.html

Map exposes the extent of China's 'human farms' as tribunal slams $1b forced organ harvesting trade...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12241731

China's Muslim internment camps run like 'concentration camps', 'turn Uighurs into forced labour'..
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6504921/Chinas-Muslim-internment-camps-run-like-concentration-camps-turn-Uighurs-forced-labour.html

China creates app to tell you if you are near someone in debt and encourages you to report them
https://www.techspot.com/news/78405-china-creates-app-tell-you-if-you-near.html

China's Disappeared: A look at who went missing in 2018.
https://apnews.com/55bf0e55b551480f86bf2721ce0ab3f7

Trump administration considers sanctions against Chinese officials over human rights violations: report
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/09/11/trump-administration-considers-sanctions-against-chinese-officials-over-human-rights-violations-report.html

China Assigns Every Citizen A 'Social Credit Score' To Identify Who Is And Isn't Trustworth
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/04/24/china-assigns-every-citizen-a-social-credit-score-to-identify-who-is-and-isnt-trustworthy/

China wants to track every driver by putting RFID chips on car windshields...
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/china-is-going-to-track-new-cars-with-chips-2018-6

Chinese officials are invading people's privacy by literally sleeping in their beds.
https://thenextweb.com/world/2018/05/16/chinese-officials-are-invading-peoples-privacy-by-literally-sleeping-in-their-beds/

Imagine government officials in your country all of the sudden move into your house for a week every other month. They sleep in your bed, sit and eat with you and your family, and report back to the government about it. Since the beginning of 2018, this h

China's secret goal is to crush Silicon Valley..
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/22/chinas-secret-goal-is-to-crush-silicon-valley.html

The policy of enriching our enemies for the false god of free trade, what could possibly go wrong.

China Now Has Superior Missiles That Can Blow Away U.S. Aircraft Carriers, Military Bases, New Report Reveals
https://www.inquisitr.com/5409303/china-missiles-aircraft-carriers-military-bases/

China flaunts supersonic nuclear missile that 'could reach the US and sink moving aircraft carriers'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6640791/China-flaunts-supersonic-nuclear-missile-reach-sink-moving-aircraft-carriers.html

We do not want that ideology here. Thank you Trump.

Chinese investors buy more U.S. residential real estate than any other country, but Trump's trade war could soon end that...
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/chinese-investors-buy-more-us-residential-real-estate-than-any-other-country-but-trumps-trade-war-could-soon-end-that-2019-05-15

No doubt that same segment of RPF would have supported supplying the Nazi regime the tools to commit genocide to satisfy their free trade gods.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 03:28 PM
This x1000. Sometimes we must interfere with the free market in order to protect the free market.

It's not interfering with the free market, it is interfering with Chinese government intervention in the market.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 03:28 PM
If you really cherished your freedom you'd give up your freedom in order to protect your freedom.

-Swordsmyth, probably
That's what all you ChiCom lovers are telling us.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 03:29 PM
It makes sense. The foriegners won't be able to take our freedom if we give it up first.
It's not giving it up to stop them from taking it.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 03:30 PM
This is my problem with Nationalists-- they are not content to simply follow their ideology or to use persuasion to convince others of their ideology's merits. They wish to use the force of government to force everyone to follow their ideologies.

It is no different from the communists, or socialists, or anyone else who is so smart that they know better than you what is best for you and by God, they are going to save you from yourself. Even if you do not want their saving!

It is an arrogant and destructive mindset and should be rejected by anyone who cherishes freedom.

I would be more than willing to say, those who wish not to purchase Chinese made products, for instance, ought to boycott Chinese made products. Those who wish to only purchase American made products, ought to do so.

But when it comes down to the simple question of if I can, well, why no, I can't. My political betters have determined that in order to keep me safe from predation, I need to pay a little more for comparable items or services depending on where they are made. Nevermind the politics of who is protected and what is not protected or the very basic economic premises which explain the value of free trade the Shepherds have spoken and I should be grateful that they care.
Imagine my gall, I actually insist that people recognize and honor my rights and those of my countrymen, I should know that true liberty is allowing tyrants to destroy us and violate our rights.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 03:32 PM
Market manipulation is usually bad because it takes a lot of skill to manipulate it in a way that does more good than bad.

Only a master manipulator like Trump should be trusted with such things.
Stopping enemy manipulation isn't manipulation.

PAF
07-08-2019, 03:41 PM
Imagine my gall, I actually insist that people recognize and honor my rights and those of my countrymen, I should know that true liberty is allowing tyrants to destroy us and violate our rights.

What every dictator/statist has said throughout history.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 03:43 PM
I should know that true liberty is allowing tyrants to destroy us and violate our rights.

What every dictator/statist has said throughout history.
And that is what you are preaching.

In case you didn't notice, I was mocking it.

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 04:18 PM
Imagine my gall, I actually insist that people recognize and honor my rights and those of my countrymen, I should know that true liberty is allowing tyrants to destroy us and violate our rights.
But you aren't recognizing and honoring my Rights. That is, to do with my property what I see fit. As in, trading some of my property with others for whatever value I see fit.

That is a negative right. Your positive right of being guaranteed labor by means of violating the Rights of many in the ignorant belief that you are creating prosperity is no Right at all.

As far as the tyrant comment.... you, and everyone who subscribes to a similar idea of collectivism, protectionism and positive rights, are the bane of freedom. You are effectively the tyrants you wish to save me from.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 04:22 PM
But you aren't recognizing and honoring my Rights. That is, to do with my property what I see fit. As in, trading some of my property with others for whatever value I see fit.

That is a negative right. Your positive right of being guaranteed labor by means of violating the Rights of many in the ignorant belief that you are creating prosperity is no Right at all.

As far as the tyrant comment.... you, and everyone who subscribes to a similar idea of collectivism, protectionism and positive rights, are the bane of freedom. You are effectively the tyrants you wish to save me from.
I am not talking about a positive right to labor, no such thing exists, I am talking about every man's right to an honest marketplace, you don't have a right to accept stolen goods or collaborate with an enemy that is waging warfare on your country.

You are taking the side of communists and criminals and then claiming that the "cops" are evil tyrants.

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 04:29 PM
Disgusting how some here worship at the altar of free trade like it is a religion, enriching those that wish to destroy us and turning a blind eye to atrocities committed by their beloved Communist trading partner.
Trump is talking to North Korea. If you think part of anything you use, from your computer to your automobile, has roots in countries which are oppressive or whose labor isn't partly supplied by slaves you are kidding yourself. The shirt on your back was made where?



No doubt that same segment of RPF would have supported supplying the Nazi regime the tools to commit genocide to satisfy their free trade gods.
No doubt I wouldn't have gotten into WWI and quite probably there wouldn't have been the rise of Hitler.

'We' trade with Saudi Arabia and perpetuate the genocide of Yemenis. I would say that if the government quit trading with tyrants, the world's oppression would be measurably lifted.

I am not the government. That is to say, I actually have Rights (insomuch that a majority of people don't come together to vote them away or restrict them).

You know the funny thing as well? I don't really buy foreign goods (except high quality German steel kitchen knives or something). Not because some holier than thou mentality (and I'm not trading with the government of China if I happen to purchase some knick knack from China) but because it is often poor quality and I'd rather just buy something once knowing it is going to work.

Can't you busybodies just leave people alone?

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 04:33 PM
I am not talking about a positive right to labor, no such thing exists, I am talking about every man's right to an honest marketplace, you don't have a right to accept stolen goods or collaborate with an enemy that is waging warfare on your country.

You are taking the side of communists and criminals and then claiming that the "cops" are evil tyrants.
Please, humor me on these stolen goods.

I am taking the side of freedom. You either have it or you don't.

I'll ask again,



Can't you busybodies just leave people alone?

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 04:35 PM
Please, humor me on these stolen goods.

I am taking the side of freedom. You either have it or you don't.

I'll ask again,
You are taking the side of the enemy of freedom, I don't have to leave people alone who help violate my rights.

PAF
07-08-2019, 04:36 PM
I am not talking about a positive right to labor, no such thing exists, I am talking about every man's right to an honest marketplace, you don't have a right to accept stolen goods or collaborate with an enemy that is waging warfare on your country.

You are taking the side of communists and criminals and then claiming that the "cops" are evil tyrants.

If I want/need a pair of shoes, and somebody else wants/needs a wooden chair, I and the other person are either free to exchange, or simply walk away. It is when other people like you/government who are not part of that private contract who interfere with my right to choose.

Conversely, if an Australian person produces something, and an American produces something, it is up to me who I wish to exchange with. If I want something el' cheapo, and save the rest of my money for another exchange (something that I need or want), it is within my right to do so. If I find that the higher price thingamajig is to my liking and not have money left over for another thingamajig, that is also my right to do so.

Your way robs me of that right.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 04:40 PM
If I want/need a pair of shoes, and somebody else wants/needs a wooden chair, I and the other person are either free to exchange, or simply walk away. It is when other people like you/government who are not part of that private contract who interfere with my right to choose.

Conversely, if an Australian person produces something, and an American produces something, it is up to me who I wish to exchange with. If I want something el' cheapo, and save the rest of my money for another exchange (something that I need or want), it is within my right to do so. If I find that the higher price thingamajig is to my liking and not have money left over for another thingamajig, that is also my right to do so.

Your way robs me of that right.
You can't just ignore foreign government intervention, you are advocating for government intervention in the marketplace.

PAF
07-08-2019, 04:49 PM
You can't just ignore foreign government intervention, you are advocating for government intervention in the marketplace.

LOL we have been over and over this. I am not advocating for any government intervention. But in the case of this and other governments, two wrongs do not make a right. I will do whatever I need to do to maximize my own liberty, whether that means protecting myself from eminent domain, exchanging good and services for what I deem best for me and/or to maximize my personal savings for a rainy day, or J-walking across the street if/when I know I can get away with it so that I am not late for work, or a dozen hot-wings extra crispy.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 04:52 PM
LOL we have been over and over this. I am not advocating for any government intervention. But in the case of this and other governments, two wrongs do not make a right. I will do whatever I need to do to maximize my own liberty, whether that means protecting myself from eminent domain, exchanging good and services for what I deem best for me and/or to maximize my personal savings for a rainy day, or J-walking across the street if/when I know I can get away with it so that I am not late for work, or a dozen hot-wings extra crispy.
It's not wrong to cancel out their intervention, it is right.

Anti Federalist
07-08-2019, 04:58 PM
http://i68.tinypic.com/fducs6.jpg

Excellent comic...you make my point better than I can.

And what happened those natives?

They ended up second class citizens, deposed of their lands, traditions and customs, and thrown on squalid reservations to have their sons become wards of the state, after being ethnically cleansed in a genocidal pogrom.

That's not the future I want for my sons, not the future I want for my posterity and certainly not the future I'm willing to accept for a cheap roof.

PAF
07-08-2019, 05:02 PM
It's not wrong to cancel out their intervention, it is right.

SwordSmyth, for the umpteenth time, please go HERE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1957)

As I have told you repeatedly in the past, you either understand liberty from within, or you do not. You are the latter. Because, well, you know why, so please do not make me say it again.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 05:05 PM
SwordSmyth, for the umpteenth time, please go HERE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1957)

As I have told you repeatedly in the past, you either understand liberty from within, or you do not. You are the latter. Because, well, you know why, so please do not make me say it again.

That doesn't say what you think it says.

Liberty is composed of restrictions on tyrants, you want to prohibit the restriction of tyrants, that make you an enemy of liberty.

Danke
07-08-2019, 05:17 PM
Excellent comic...you make my point better than I can.

And what happened those natives?

They ended up second class citizens, deposed of their lands, traditions and customs, and thrown on squalid reservations to have their sons become wards of the state, after being ethnically cleansed in a genocidal pogrom.

That's not the future I want for my sons, not the future I want for my posterity and certainly not the future I'm willing to accept for a cheap roof.

Seems Oyarde has done well with his assimilation.

TheTexan
07-08-2019, 05:27 PM
You are taking the side of the enemy of freedom, I don't have to leave people alone who help violate my rights.

kcchiefs just wants you and your family to suffer. It's why he buys his plastic lawn chairs from China instead of America.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 05:31 PM
kcchiefs just wants you and your family to suffer. It's why he buys his plastic lawn chairs from China instead of America.
He just wants to save a buck even if it costs us all our liberty.

Trading his birthright for a mess of pottage, his kind have been the bane of liberty throughout history, tyrants couldn't succeed without them.

TheTexan
07-08-2019, 05:35 PM
He just wants to save a buck even if it costs us all our liberty.

Trading his birthright for a mess of pottage, his kind have been the bane of liberty throughout history, tyrants couldn't succeed without them.

I'm pretty sure that's how the Roman Empire fell. Plastic lawn-chair market manipulation.

If only they had known to put up tariffs back then maybe they'd still be around.

PAF
07-08-2019, 05:38 PM
Excellent comic...you make my point better than I can.

And what happened those natives?

They ended up second class citizens, deposed of their lands, traditions and customs, and thrown on squalid reservations to have their sons become wards of the state, after being ethnically cleansed in a genocidal pogrom.

That's not the future I want for my sons, not the future I want for my posterity and certainly not the future I'm willing to accept for a cheap roof.


Perhaps the Indians, like you and SwordSmyth, should have paid much more attention to my Signature. History does have a way of repeating itself.

____


Stuart Banner, a law professor, does not deny that between the early 17th century and the end of the 19th, nearly the entire land area of the United States was transferred from Indian to non-Indian ownership. But in How the Indians Lost Their Land, he offers an avowedly revisionist account of the way this happened. Previous scholars, he claims, have overemphasized the direct seizure of Indian land, failing to recognize that the process of acquisition proceeded mainly through legal forms: namely, purchase by individuals, groups or governments, and the signing of treaties between Indians and the United States. Banner criticizes traditional accounts for denying that Indians had their own concept of private property and were tricked into selling land, and for maintaining that whites believed the native inhabitants had no real claim to land ownership. Actually, Banner insists, there were strong reasons to purchase the land and not simply to seize it. The early settlers lacked the power to dispossess the Indian population, and throughout the colonial era, with the French competing with the English for Indian loyalty, wholesale expropriation would have been politically counterproductive.

Indeed, Banner argues, colonial governments and authorities in London generally tried to prevent settler intrusion onto Indian land before it had been purchased. This policy culminated in the Proclamation of 1763, which declared the entire continent west of the Appalachian mountains off-limits to white settlers. Of course, settlers ignored the Proclamation, as did land speculators like George Washington, who instructed his agents to buy as much Indian land in the west as possible while keeping ‘this whole matter a profound secret’ because of its illegality. But Banner’s point is that government officials were committed to dealing with Indians in a legal, orderly manner. Even speculators like Washington paid Indians for their land.


https://www.amazon.com/How-Indians-Lost-Their-Land/dp/067402396X

PAF
07-08-2019, 05:44 PM
kcchiefs just wants you and your family to suffer. It's why he buys his plastic lawn chairs from China instead of America.

I wonder, how many more babies Section 8 will want to have, once those cheap items down at Wal-Mart aren't available anymore. Maybe Swordy will volunteer his services. You know, to help save our freedoms.

specsaregood
07-08-2019, 05:46 PM
http://i68.tinypic.com/fducs6.jpg

Excellent comic...you make my point better than I can.

And what happened those natives?

They ended up second class citizens, deposed of their lands, traditions and customs, and thrown on squalid reservations to have their sons become wards of the state, after being ethnically cleansed in a genocidal pogrom.

That's not the future I want for my sons, not the future I want for my posterity and certainly not the future I'm willing to accept for a cheap roof.

Indeed. One would have to be an idiot or suffering from a massive outbreak of white guilt to read that comic and think an unlimited immigration policy is a good thing.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 05:49 PM
I'm pretty sure that's how the Roman Empire fell. Plastic lawn-chair market manipulation.

If only they had known to put up tariffs back then maybe they'd still be around.
The Roman empire wasn't exactly a bastion of liberty but it did fall because people put their own selfish interests above their country.

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 05:52 PM
If I want/need a pair of shoes, and somebody else wants/needs a wooden chair, I and the other person are either free to exchange, or simply walk away. It is when other people like you/government who are not part of that private contract who interfere with my right to choose.

Conversely, if an Australian person produces something, and an American produces something, it is up to me who I wish to exchange with. If I want something el' cheapo, and save the rest of my money for another exchange (something that I need or want), it is within my right to do so. If I find that the higher price thingamajig is to my liking and not have money left over for another thingamajig, that is also my right to do so.

Your way robs me of that right.
We should all chip in to buy Swordsmyth the Tuttle Twin series.

kahless
07-08-2019, 05:55 PM
https://pics.awwmemes.com/free-trade-is-the-serial-killer-of-american-manufacturing-and-46476415.png

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 05:56 PM
Indeed. One would have to be an idiot or suffering from a massive outbreak of white guilt to read that comic and think an unlimited immigration policy is a good thing.
I think it's more of a progressive colonialist position (obviously out of step with PC), obviously anyone using it is implying that the Injuns were massively benefited by the coming of the white man and would have been crazy to resist being "culturally enriched" and that the 3rd worlders and communists coming here will be good for us and equivalent to Christian missionaries. (note the prominent placement of the bible in the pilgrim's hand)

The Injuns could have been converted without being wiped out, having their land taken and having our government and culture imposed on them and the 3rd worlders and communists bring nothing like Christianity. (although liberals are sure communism is much better than Christianity.)

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 05:57 PM
https://pics.awwmemes.com/free-trade-is-the-serial-killer-of-american-manufacturing-and-46476415.png
It isn't free nor does it produce freedom.

PAF
07-08-2019, 06:06 PM
We should all chip in to buy Swordsmyth the Tuttle Twin series.

You don't think that would be way over his head? He has a big issue with my signature don't ya know.


6620

Tuttle Twins (https://tuttletwins.com/?ap_id=bdreadin)



6621

Little Libertarians (https://littlelibertarians.com/)

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 06:14 PM
You don't think that would be way over his head? He has a big issue with my signature don't ya know.


6620

Tuttle Twins (https://tuttletwins.com/?ap_id=bdreadin)



6621

Little Libertarians (https://littlelibertarians.com/)
That's a nice simplistic view of principles, it seems to fit your mental age.

Unfortunately people whose mind actually grows to an adult level realize that those principles must be imposed on the world and that some collective defense is required to do that.


Stay in your crib and let the adults do what needs to be done.

PAF
07-08-2019, 06:25 PM
Unfortunately people whose mind actually grows to an adult level realize that those principles must be imposed on the world and that some collective defense is required to do that.



Yes, it is unfortunate. Which is why I keep repeating that Common Core needs to end. Adults(?) these days keep insisting that everything must be imposed and that collectivism is more important that individualism. It is a vicious cycle that Ron Paul and some of us are trying to explain.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 06:31 PM
Yes, it is unfortunate. Which is why I keep repeating that Common Core needs to end. Adults(?) these days keep insisting that everything must be imposed and that collectivism is more important that the individualism. It is a vicious cycle that Ron Paul and some of us are trying to stop.
Liberty must be imposed, it is not the natural state of the world or of humanity.

You are anti-liberty, you are a foolish child looking at the imperfect state of the world and throwing all the babies out with all the bathwater in your simplistic arrogance.
The individual is incapable of maintaining his rights against collectives of tyrants and therefore some collective actions must be used to preserve liberty.
Utopia doesn't exist because it can't.
There is no "New Soviet Anarchist Man" and there never will be so there can't be a world without collective defense.

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 06:49 PM
Liberty must be imposed, it is not the natural state of the world or of humanity.

You are anti-liberty, you are a foolish child looking at the imperfect state of the world and throwing all the babies out with all the bathwater in your simplistic arrogance.
The individual is incapable of maintaining his rights against collectives of tyrants and therefore some collective actions must be used to preserve liberty.
Utopia doesn't exist because it can't.
There is no "New Soviet Anarchist Man" and there never will be so there can't be a world without collective defense.
I don't believe anyone is arguing against collective defense. I am simply saying there are less evil ways of 'defending' oneself than getting in bed with the Saudis and murdering millions of people.

On top of the Tuttle Twins series, we should all chip in to buy you an American made red coat.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 06:53 PM
I don't believe anyone is arguing against collective defense. I am simply saying there are less evil ways of 'defending' oneself than getting in bed with the Saudis and murdering millions of people.
That is NOT what we have been discussing AT ALL.
We have been discussing trade warfare and how to respond to it.
Thanks for proving you are losing the argument.


On top of the Tuttle Twins series, we should all chip in to buy you an American made red coat.
You guys would be the Tories trading with the British during the revolution, your projection is amazing.

PAF
07-08-2019, 07:01 PM
I don't believe anyone is arguing against collective defense. I am simply saying there are less evil ways of 'defending' oneself than getting in bed with the Saudis and murdering millions of people.

On top of the Tuttle Twins series, we should all chip in to buy you an American made red coat.


I'm wanting some good ol' American-made hot-wings which is where my money is better spent. And a spin on my Indian. How about we get him a cheap one from Wal-Mart?

Wait... he already has one! Look at his avatar!


Btw, it's great to have you on the forum, kcchiefs6465 :cool:

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 07:03 PM
I'm wanting some good ol' American-made hot-wings which is where my money is better spent. And a spin on my Indian. How about we get him a cheap one from Wal-Mart?

Wait... he already has one! Look at his avatar!


Btw, it's great to have you on the forum, kcchiefs6465 :cool:
That's a green coat with red lapels, worn by an enemy of the British.

Go collaborate with the enemy while you still can.

Anti Federalist
07-08-2019, 07:33 PM
Perhaps the Indians, like you and SwordSmyth, should have paid much more attention to my Signature. History does have a way of repeating itself.

____


Stuart Banner, a law professor, does not deny that between the early 17th century and the end of the 19th, nearly the entire land area of the United States was transferred from Indian to non-Indian ownership. But in How the Indians Lost Their Land, he offers an avowedly revisionist account of the way this happened. Previous scholars, he claims, have overemphasized the direct seizure of Indian land, failing to recognize that the process of acquisition proceeded mainly through legal forms: namely, purchase by individuals, groups or governments, and the signing of treaties between Indians and the United States. Banner criticizes traditional accounts for denying that Indians had their own concept of private property and were tricked into selling land, and for maintaining that whites believed the native inhabitants had no real claim to land ownership. Actually, Banner insists, there were strong reasons to purchase the land and not simply to seize it. The early settlers lacked the power to dispossess the Indian population, and throughout the colonial era, with the French competing with the English for Indian loyalty, wholesale expropriation would have been politically counterproductive.

Indeed, Banner argues, colonial governments and authorities in London generally tried to prevent settler intrusion onto Indian land before it had been purchased. This policy culminated in the Proclamation of 1763, which declared the entire continent west of the Appalachian mountains off-limits to white settlers. Of course, settlers ignored the Proclamation, as did land speculators like George Washington, who instructed his agents to buy as much Indian land in the west as possible while keeping ‘this whole matter a profound secret’ because of its illegality. But Banner’s point is that government officials were committed to dealing with Indians in a legal, orderly manner. Even speculators like Washington paid Indians for their land.


https://www.amazon.com/How-Indians-Lost-Their-Land/dp/067402396X

I am well aware of that history, I have cited it many times, and have traced the original land purchases of my own family back to lands purchased fair and square from the native tribes in New England and Pennsylvania.

It did not take long before the natives realized the danger of this: read about King Philip's War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Philip%27s_War) sometime.

Within 200 years they, native aboriginals, were for all intents and purposes, eliminated from the North American land mass.

Anti Federalist
07-08-2019, 07:40 PM
I don't believe anyone is arguing against collective defense.

I am quite certain that there are more than a few people who are opposed to any manner of collective defense.

They abhor the idea, and maintain that, even if convinced of the concept, there is nothing worthwhile left of this nation to defend anyways.

I used to think that myself...but upon more careful reflection I came to the conclusion that I was wrong...not only from a philosophical perspective but from a very real, save my life, perspective.

The new left Bolsheviks/Jacobins will kill us if they are given the chance.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 07:41 PM
Perhaps the Indians, like you and SwordSmyth, should have paid much more attention to my Signature. History does have a way of repeating itself.

____


Stuart Banner, a law professor, does not deny that between the early 17th century and the end of the 19th, nearly the entire land area of the United States was transferred from Indian to non-Indian ownership. But in How the Indians Lost Their Land, he offers an avowedly revisionist account of the way this happened. Previous scholars, he claims, have overemphasized the direct seizure of Indian land, failing to recognize that the process of acquisition proceeded mainly through legal forms: namely, purchase by individuals, groups or governments, and the signing of treaties between Indians and the United States. Banner criticizes traditional accounts for denying that Indians had their own concept of private property and were tricked into selling land, and for maintaining that whites believed the native inhabitants had no real claim to land ownership. Actually, Banner insists, there were strong reasons to purchase the land and not simply to seize it. The early settlers lacked the power to dispossess the Indian population, and throughout the colonial era, with the French competing with the English for Indian loyalty, wholesale expropriation would have been politically counterproductive.

Indeed, Banner argues, colonial governments and authorities in London generally tried to prevent settler intrusion onto Indian land before it had been purchased. This policy culminated in the Proclamation of 1763, which declared the entire continent west of the Appalachian mountains off-limits to white settlers. Of course, settlers ignored the Proclamation, as did land speculators like George Washington, who instructed his agents to buy as much Indian land in the west as possible while keeping ‘this whole matter a profound secret’ because of its illegality. But Banner’s point is that government officials were committed to dealing with Indians in a legal, orderly manner. Even speculators like Washington paid Indians for their land.


https://www.amazon.com/How-Indians-Lost-Their-Land/dp/067402396X
Thank you for proving that your ideas would get us eliminated and conquered just as the Injuns were.

You are also ignoring all of the times and places that territory WAS taken from them by force.

PAF
07-08-2019, 07:52 PM
Thank you for proving that your ideas would get us eliminated and conquered just as the Injuns were.

You are also ignoring all of the times and places that territory WAS taken from them by force.

You seem to pick and choose bits and pieces, ignoring what is the fundamental.

Yes, "territory" was taken by force, but only after they sold much of their own land to others, believing that the sale was not valid.

My signature is most sacred to me, and unless people truly understand that, and change their tune, NO other rights will be enforceable. Not you, not .gov, not AF, will ever change my mind.

UWDude
07-08-2019, 07:52 PM
I am well aware of that history, I have cited it many times, and have traced the original land purchases of my own family back to lands purchased fair and square from the native tribes in New England and Pennsylvania.

It did not take long before the natives realized the danger of this: read about King Philip's War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Philip%27s_War) sometime.

Within 200 years they, native aboriginals, were for all intents and purposes, eliminated from the North American land mass.

Yup. In all cases of conquest and colonization, there are always those that do deals and trade with the invaders.
And it is true, the US government tried to make settlers respect Indian land, but settlers didn't care. And the US government was not interested in using its own people to enforce laws against its own people, so treaties were pretty much meaningless.
The indians could never show enough solidarity to stop other indians from making deals for knives and pots and guns and plastic lawn chairs.

Same with Africa. In Africa, the disenfranchised Africans were overjoyed to see British and French colonizers on the horizon. It meant a new start for many of them, and the Europeans used this to full effect. I've read quite a few books on the matter, some from perspective of colonial resisters, and some from perspective of colonial collaborators. Christian ideals like the "meek shall inherit the Earth" resonated quite well with Africans shunned by their own tribes, and indeed, in many cases, it was the meek who ended up ruling over their former chieftains.

And i see the "freedom" the globalists are trying to bring America, by empowering the weak, by elevating victimhood. I see the attempts at censorship, thought control and disarmament. Not interested in selling my rights for cheap lawn chairs.

In the meantime, the Chinese are buying up all the land, housing, technology companies and farms, with the money they get from sellign Americans cheap plastic lawn chairs. I know this personally because whenever I see my landlord, who is Chinese, I have to listen to him rail on Trump, and say nothing. Wouldn't want to be kicked out of my home because a man who has lived here for less than a decade thinks he knows better for my country than I do. (Funnily, he thinks black people are the richest Americans. I thought he was joking at first. But nope, he insisted, he thinks they are all sports stars and music stars. When I told him they were the poorest, he just said "nah, I don;t know about that, I think you are wrong).

Every time I see him, though, he starts bagging on Trump for whatever the hot story of the day is.

Oh, and i say this, because out of my past 4 residences, 3 have been owned by Chinese, and one was owned by a Serb.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 07:56 PM
You seem to pick and choose bits and pieces, ignoring what is the fundamental.

Yes, "territory" was taken by force, but only after they sold much of their own land to others, believing that the sale was not valid.

My signature is most sacred to me, and unless people truly understand that, and change their tune, NO other rights will be enforceable. Not you, not .gov, not AF, will ever change my mind.
And you expect us to allow traitors to sell land to the invaders and allow them in our territory in unlimited numbers until they kill all of us and take everything that wasn't sold to them.

You are making the case against your own position.

Krugminator2
07-08-2019, 07:56 PM
https://pics.awwmemes.com/free-trade-is-the-serial-killer-of-american-manufacturing-and-46476415.png



Pat Buchanan is an idiot. He is just wrong and it isn't debatable. His argument is the bottom of the barrel argument for tariffs.

Both countries win economically when you allow trade otherwise trade wouldn't happen. People don't make it a habit to make themselves worse off when they buy something. Consumers choose foreign products when they deem them better or cheaper. I drive a Japanese car for that reason. I shop at Wal-Mart. In turn the producers int he foreign country buys US products or invests in the US. I don't get the fetish of manufacturing. And he isn't even right about that. The US manufactures more now than at any point in history.

Why would any country want to be economically independent? They are basically saying they want to be poorer and inefficient. Not to mention free trade is a safeguard against big government. If government regulation stifles business at home, someone outside the borders will produce it more efficiently.

UWDude
07-08-2019, 07:57 PM
Pat Buchanan is an idiot. He is just wrong and it isn't debatable. His argument is the bottom of the barrel argument for tariffs.

Both countries win economically when you allow trade otherwise trade wouldn't happen. People don't make it a habit to make themselves worse off when they buy something. Consumers choose foreign products when they deem them better or cheaper. In turn the foreign country buys foreign products or invests in the US.

Why would any country want to be economically independent? They are basically saying they want to be poorer. Not to mention free trade is a safeguard against big government. If government regulation stifles business at home, someone outside the borders will produce it more efficiently.

Chinese tariffs are good, American tariffs are bad, because everyone wins if there are no tariffs.

Welfare for Americans and immigrants are bad. That's why we need to let all the immigrants in.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 07:58 PM
Yup. In all cases of conquest and colonization, there are always those that do deals and trade with the invaders.
And it is true, the US government tried to make settlers respect Indian land, but settlers didn't care. And the US government was not interested in using its own people to enforce laws against its own people, so treaties were pretty much meaningless.
The indians could never show enough solidarity to stop other indians from making deals for knives and pots and guns and plastic lawn chairs.

Same with Africa. In Africa, the disenfranchised Africans were overjoyed to see British and French colonizers on the horizon. It meant a new start for many of them, and the Europeans used this to full effect. I've read quite a few books on the matter, some from perspective of colonial resisters, and some from perspective of colonial collaborators. Christian ideals like the "meek shall inherit the Earth" resonated quite well with Africans shunned by their own tribes, and indeed, in many cases, it was the meek who ended up ruling over their former chieftains.

And i see the "freedom" the globalists are trying to bring America, by empowering the weak, by elevating victimhood. I see the attempts at censorship, thought control and disarmament. Not interested in selling my rights for cheap lawn chairs.

In the meantime, the Chinese are buying up all the land, housing, technology companies and farms, with the money they get from sellign Americans cheap plastic lawn chairs. I know this personally because whenever I see my landlord, who is Chinese, I have to listen to him rail on Trump, and say nothing. Wouldn't want to be kicked out of my home because a man who has lived here for less than a decade thinks he knows better for my country than I do. (Funnily, he thinks black people are the richest Americans. I thought he was joking at first. But nope, he insisted, he thinks they are all sports stars and music stars. When I told him they were the poorest, he just said "nah, I don;t know about that, I think you are wrong).

Every time I see him, though, he starts bagging on Trump for whatever the hot story of the day is.

Oh, and i say this, because out of my past 4 residences, 3 have been owned by Chinese, and one was owned by a Serb.
Further evidence that your way will get us all killed.

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 08:01 PM
Both countries win economically when you allow trade otherwise trade wouldn't happen.
NOT when a government is allowed to interfere and warp the marketplace to conduct destructive trade warfare.



Why would any country want to be economically independent? They are basically saying they want to be poorer and inefficient.
Because you need independence to preserve liberty, dependence breeds tyranny.


Not to mention free trade is a safeguard against big government. If government regulation stifles business at home, someone outside the borders will produce it more efficiently.
You must mean it is a CRUTCH for big government that allows it to grow and cement itself in the culture because its effects are masked.

kcchiefs6465
07-08-2019, 08:01 PM
That is NOT what we have been discussing AT ALL.
We have been discussing trade warfare and how to respond to it.
'Trade warfare' is an oxymoron and is quite frankly a stupid idea. Trade reduces the likelihood of warfare.

It is part of the reason you are being mocked with absurdity.

With regards to the Saudis.... wasn't the leader of the free world quite honest recently with regards to why we tolerate the atrocities committed by the Saudis?



Thanks for proving you are losing the argument.
The 'argument' to me, just about every economist of the last hundred plus years, and anyone who cherishes freedom is hardly an argument at all. It is 18th century Hamiltonianism. It is antiquated mercantilist dogma. It is just not really worth a serious response.. though I have been trying to be very patient in dispelling the nonsense (for what little my thoughts are worth).



You guys would be the Tories trading with the British during the revolution, your projection is amazing.
Didn't the Founding Fathers rebel in part due to excessive tariffs?

Swordsmyth
07-08-2019, 08:06 PM
'Trade warfare' is an oxymoron and is quite frankly a stupid idea. Trade reduces the likelihood of warfare.
That's nonsense, any way you can purposely damage and destroy another country can be used for war.


It is part of the reason you are being mocked with absurdity.
:rolleyes:


With regards to the Saudis.... wasn't the leader of the free world quite honest recently with regards to why we tolerate the atrocities committed by the Saudis?
I'm not going to let you change the subject no matter how much you want to.




The 'argument' to me, just about every economist of the last hundred plus years, and anyone who cherishes freedom is hardly an argument at all. It is 18th century Hamiltonianism. It is antiquated mercantilist dogma. It is just not really worth a serious response.. though I have been trying to be very patient in dispelling the nonsense (for what little my thoughts are worth).
That is what the Chinese are engaging in, defending against it isn't the same thing, even Adam Smith said so.



Didn't the Founding Fathers rebel in part due to excessive tariffs?
No, they imposed tariffs of their own after the Revolution, they rebelled because a government they had no representation in was putting many different kinds of taxes on them.

PAF
07-08-2019, 08:09 PM
I see the attempts at censorship, thought control and disarmament.

I know this personally because whenever I see my landlord, who is Chinese, I have to listen to him rail on Trump, and say nothing. Wouldn't want to be kicked out of my home because a man who has lived here for less than a decade thinks he knows better for my country than I do.

Every time I see him, though, he starts bagging on Trump for whatever the hot story of the day is.

Oh, and i say this, because out of my past 4 residences, 3 have been owned by Chinese, and one was owned by a Serb.


When I lived in LA I was down and out broke. Termites were the only thing holding up the walls. I was resourceful, and moved to a better place.

When I lived in New Hampshire, I did not like the owner, but I never said nothing. The sink never got fixed, I was expected to pay on time, adios, and on to a another place.

Those are only a couple of the many, many examples of when I lived across this nation.

Race has nothing to do with it.