I thought I'd throw a little fuel on the Fire

[Aldanga]

I'm in the middle of an altercation with an acquaintance of mine. (We're both high school seniors. He goes to the 'rich' school in town and I have been homeschooled all my life.) He's been quite interested in politics for quite some time and has definitely learned the art.

He said things at two different times.

No, we're not headed down the road of fascism, nor serfdom. And neither is Ron Paul going to be president.
Which pissed me off. :mad: He's very partisan and old school in his ideas of what politics should be; and not easily concerned by the infringement of rights, for he believes such infringements to be necessary and not truly 'infringements'.

I had mentioned the movement I've seen within the American people as related to the positions of Dr. Paul and noted his ignorance on the subject. This was his response:

The movement of the American people does not lie in the hopes and dreams of Ron Paul. Just as the hopes and dreams did not lie in Howard Dean, or Pat Buchanan, or Ross Perot, or George Wallace, or Barry Goldwater, or even the assortment of characters as Huey Long, Father Coughlin, and Eugene Debs. The correct distribution lies within America's two dominant political parties, and not at the periphery of other party's position.

Certainly, the American people want change, yes. But it's the kind of change the American people requested in 1992 or 1968, not an ideological change that Mr. Paul is proposing. I don't doubt the enthusiasm of Paul's supporters or the devotion to the cause, but I do not believe Paul has correctly identified where the American people want to go for the next four to eight years.

If I my extrapolate, the reason Paul resonates with so many people is his grandiose propositions. 'Return to the Constitution'. 'Return to Liberty'. And so forth.
To this I responded:

The 'correct distribution'? What is this 'correct distribution'?

The American people have seen the change from 1992 as well as this last election cycle: There is no change; at least none for the better. This new generation--as well as many from past--is sick and tired of old, failing policies and partisan politics that have brought us to our present de-Constitutionalized state.

If Dr. Paul has not found that to which the American people wish to continue this great political experiment, where do they wish to go? War with Iran?

Yes, those are a part of why he is gaining, and will continue to gain, popularity. However, his statements on the Constitution and individual liberties are not the only things that have brought him supporters. His consistent, principled voting record and integrity within the heavily scandalized realm we know as politics gives him credibility where there often is none.

People are sick of the bullshit they've been fed. They're not going to eat it anymore.
I did not get to say all that I truly wished to say, for I was limited by characters in my response. (Facebook wall posts can only have 1000.) We will definitely be continuing this.

This really got me riled up and fired up. It ignites the passion to prove him wrong so much more; and really see change for the better in the political landscape of the U.S. of A. It's frustrating, but really does make me want to do more.

I hope this helps some of your fires to burn more brightly. :)



"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." ~Mahatma Gandhi

[icon124]

i really like your last response....but even though u can be right on everything it is REALLY hard to change anyone that has old school thoughts...

its like trying to get u to say u dont like RP

[Dave Pedersen]

He views everything through the left/right paradigm and that is why he can't appreciate Ron Paul. He characterizes returning to the constitution as "grandiose" so he needs to get more detailed information about the issues.

Until he sees through the BS of the msm he will continue to be thus bedaffled and febuddled.

He trusts the system. All who trust the system will astounder in their own deprecaments until they pop at their weasels. Only then can you hook them on our Doctor of merits.

[Corydoras]

Kids who go to the "rich" schools (like Obama did) tend to be trained to uphold the status quo. It helped their family get where they are, after all. It's not surprising that this person sounds this way.

[john_anderson_ii]

Take the conversation into specifics, and do not let him back out into the "comfort zone" of sweeping generalities. Force it into a discussion of logic, moral philosophy, and conscious thus moving the discussion away from pre-prepared and comfortable sound bytes.

His broad and sweeping "Ron Paul will not be president" statement affords you a great opportunity to go into the specifics, and challenge his moral philosophy at the same time. For example, "Ron Paul is a caring and intelligent patriot who obviously has the countries best interests in mind. Why is it a man like this cannot be president? Why does the bulk of American information systems stack against such a man?" Take it from there.

Most importantly, have faith in our founder's principles of liberty. Don't say things like "I think Americans can take care of their own needs within their local societies.", say things like "Americans can, and have, taken care of their own needs in their local societies", etc.

Finally treat the discussion as if you aren't trying to convince your acquaintance, but you are trying to convince an audience who is observing the conversation between the two of you. In fact, its arguably a waste of time to confront a follower of the status quo if there is not an audience that might be convinced.

[DirtMcGirt]

welcome aboard aldanga!!! you can only bring them to the water you can't make them drink... RP 08

[Ksuperneau]

See sig to see why I support Dr. Paul

[Goldwater Conservative]

The reason people stick to the Coke and Pepsi party system is Duverger's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law). Plurality voting does not measure popular opinion, it measures who the least unpopular of two unpopular candidates is.

[Ron LOL]

Tell your friend he's a poor writer.

[jonahtrainer]

Finally treat the discussion as if you aren't trying to convince your acquaintance, but you are trying to convince an audience who is observing the conversation between the two of you. In fact, its arguably a waste of time to confront a follower of the status quo if there is not an audience that might be convinced.

There is a lot of truth to this.

Over the last couple month's I have had a similiar conversation on my Wall after my brother-in-law's brother asked "Why do you support Ron Paul, the man has serious problems."

So, I followed the advice of this post. Eventually, he couldn't intelligently respond to my powerful intellectual attack as I honed in on his issues and relentlessly attacked his assertions. He has since retreated from further comment. Intellectual pigmy. ;)

However, a friend of mine who used to work for the Federal Reserve observed the conversation (without me knowing) and has switched from Romney to Ron Paul. He has also convinced about 15-20 of his friends and family to vote for Ron Paul. He was here last night and after watching GoldRush21 (http://www.gata.org) before he left he asked if I had any signs. I gave him 8 yard signs and 12 bumper stickers to give to his friends and family.

As Mises said "Money and power are impotent against ideas. Only ideas can overcome ideas."

This isn't about Ron Paul or RP's dreams. This is about the principles of Freedom and Liberty. That is why this movement won't end after this election; no matter what the outcome. The sleeping Remnant has been awakened and while still a little groggy is rapidly mobilizing, regenerating and becoming more powerful than the elite could have ever imagined.

[Dan Klaus]

Wow..high school guys having a real, honest and relevant discussion...this is heartening...

[Kingfisher]

If the "Rich school is a public school, he's been brainwashed by the federal govt.

[garrettwombat]

He's very partisan and old school in his ideas of what politics should be

ehhh, you cant get more old school than us...

we are 1776 oldschool

[Libertarian]

ehhh, you cant get more old school than us...

we are 1776 oldschool

QFT

[Aldanga]

Take the conversation into specifics, and do not let him back out into the "comfort zone" of sweeping generalities. Force it into a discussion of logic, moral philosophy, and conscious thus moving the discussion away from pre-prepared and comfortable sound bytes.

His broad and sweeping "Ron Paul will not be president" statement affords you a great opportunity to go into the specifics, and challenge his moral philosophy at the same time. For example, "Ron Paul is a caring and intelligent patriot who obviously has the countries best interests in mind. Why is it a man like this cannot be president? Why does the bulk of American information systems stack against such a man?" Take it from there.

Most importantly, have faith in our founder's principles of liberty. Don't say things like "I think Americans can take care of their own needs within their local societies.", say things like "Americans can, and have, taken care of their own needs in their local societies", etc.

Finally treat the discussion as if you aren't trying to convince your acquaintance, but you are trying to convince an audience who is observing the conversation between the two of you. In fact, its arguably a waste of time to confront a follower of the status quo if there is not an audience that might be convinced.
I'm undoubtedly going to push this into specifics. Debate on specific facts and ideas has been my most talented area of rhetoric in the past.

I have known from the start that this will be viewed by other people as well, which I why I decided to pursue it via a wall-discussion and not a private message. Those onlookers are at the forefront of my mind. I'm going to do all I can to appeal to them on a rhetoric scale, as put forth by Aristotle in his Rhetoric. It is quite necessary to know your subject, but it is more necessary to know your audience.

ehhh, you cant get more old school than us...

we are 1776 oldschool
LOL. I realized that early this morning.


@Dan Klaus: I actually have discussions like this often and with many of my peers. I start many of them, but they are willing to continue them. I have convinced one female friend of mine to support Dr. Paul and am working on my best friend who currently supports Fred Thompson. I think he's going to come around, but it's going to take some time.

[A Ron Paul Rebel]

Kids who go to the "rich" schools (like Obama did) tend to be trained to uphold the status quo. It helped their family get where they are, after all. It's not surprising that this person sounds this way.

ditto

[nbhadja]

ALWAYS bring up the 9 trillion dollar debt (60 trillion counting SS payments) and crashing value of the US dollar in responses, it is hard ignore it.

[noztnac]

Don't play defense. Attack!

Make your friend defend what's going on.

Is he cool with the national debt, the plummeting dollar, the infringement of civil liberties, torturing people, limiting ballot access, starting unprovoked, undeclared, unconstitutional wars? Ask him and post his responses here. It will be useful because it will give all of us insight into the types of arguments these guys are using. Personally, I find his positions indefensible. Let's see what he comes up with.

[sirachman]

Anyone that desperately attempts to write to me and "sound" smart is not worth talking to in my book.

[john_anderson_ii]

I have known from the start that this will be viewed by other people as well, which I why I decided to pursue it via a wall-discussion and not a private message. Those onlookers are at the forefront of my mind. I'm going to do all I can to appeal to them on a rhetoric scale, as put forth by Aristotle in his Rhetoric. It is quite necessary to know your subject, but it is more necessary to know your audience.


I like the way you think. ;) You should have no problems.

People don't like to admit when they are wrong, so this guy might never agree with you. But anyone who observes the conversation will not want to be like the guy who was proven wrong.

[Lunchbox]

I hope this helps some of your fires to burn more brightly. :)

Indeed it shall, I liked your responses! I definitely agree with noztnac and feel we need to assume a less defensive posture about Ron Paul's well thought out ideas for America. They are incredibly popular and also unpopular with some because they destroy the status quo so vital to ensuring comfort for certain Americans.

Changing the way we think, act, and proceed as a nation in these disturbing times (across all levels of income, education, and political inclination) is a tough thing to sell sometimes.

Keep at it! Dr. Paul's message is strong, well-informed, and principled. It represents the best hope for real honest change for the better, and we will win the day (and our country back) by continuing these conversations with our friends and adversaries.

[lucius]

Way to go--wake that monkey up! Thank your parents for making a tremendous sacrifice to homeschool and not let strangers raise/twist you--your style of writing is far superior than your inculcated friend.

This book will explain much of what your are up against, and you can read it online for free:

The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto: http://www.rit.edu/~cma8660/mirror/www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/