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PAF
05-23-2019, 08:38 AM
To Impeach or Not to Impeach.

By Andrew P. Napolitano

May 23, 2019




“If the president does it,
that means it is not illegal.”
–Richard M. Nixon (1913-1994)

The revelation last weekend by Michigan Republican Congressman Justin Amash that he believes the Mueller Report accuses President Donald Trump of impeachable offenses has ignited firestorms in both major political parties on Capitol Hill. Amash’s argument is simple and essentially unassailable, though his fellow congressional Republicans don’t want to hear it and Democrats don’t know what to do with it.

Here is the backstory.

When special counsel Robert Mueller delivered his report to Attorney General William Barr, it was a 448-page tome that effectively summarized nearly two years of work and nearly two million pages of documents in an effort to establish whether elements of the Russian government interfered with the 2016 presidential election, and, if so, whether the Russians had any American collaborators in the Trump campaign.

The investigation of Russians and potential American collaborators expanded because of personal behavior of President Trump, which was aimed at delaying or derailing Mueller’s investigation. Thus, when the Mueller Report reached Barr’s desk, it was in two volumes — the first was about the Russians and the second was about the president.

Mueller found 127 communications between Trump campaign officials and Russian agents between June 2015 and November 2016 — Trump publicly said there were none — and as a result of those communications, the campaign came to expect to receive “dirt” on Trump’s principal opponent, Hillary Clinton, from the Russians. The dirt arrived in the form of hacked emails, but Mueller and his team were unable to “establish” the existence of a criminal conspiracy between the Russians and the Trump campaign.

Mueller indicted Russians for interference, and he found evidence of a criminal conspiracy, but not enough evidence to prove the conspiracy case to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

The second volume of the report addressed 10 instances in which the president himself attempted to interfere with Mueller’s work. Such attempted interference, when done for a corrupt purpose — such as protecting himself or his friends from the reach of the FBI — constitutes obstruction of justice. Here is where the Mueller Report and Barr’s response to it get a bit dicey.

The more serious and clearly criminal of these obstruction events consists in Trump instructing those who worked for him in the White House to put documents containing material falsehoods into government files that were about to be subpoenaed, and instructing the same folks to lie to FBI agents. Mueller did not seek an indictment of the president on these crimes because he knew that Barr, his boss, would not permit one. The reasons Barr has given for not permitting the indictment are legally troublesome; they constitute a very narrow reading of the obstruction of justice statute and a misapplication of Department of Justice policy.

Barr has not permitted Mueller to seek an indictment of Trump because Barr reads the obstruction statute as letting Trump off the hook because he was not charged with conspiracy to collaborate with the Russians — the original crime Mueller was investigating. That view of obstruction — an innocent person cannot legally obstruct an FBI investigation of himself — has been rejected by nearly all law enforcement, including by Barr’s own DOJ prosecutors.

Barr also would not permit an indictment of Trump because of what he says is the general DOJ policy against indicting an incumbent president. But the DOJ policy barring the prosecution of a president allows a sealed and secret indictment of the president and post-presidential prosecution because, contrary to what President Richard Nixon believed, the president is not above the law.

We know that Mueller’s obstruction allegations — which have not been effectively contradicted by the White House — constitute not only crimes but also impeachable offenses. We know that because when Nixon asked John Ehrlichman and H.R. Haldeman, his principal aides, to lie to a grand jury, and when President Bill Clinton asked Betty Currie, his White House personal secretary, to lie to FBI agents, the House of Representatives — either through the House Judiciary Committee by direct vote — approved articles of impeachment against both of them for obstruction of justice.

This is Amash’s argument: The special counsel found evidence of obstruction of justice by the president, and historically presidential obstruction of justice is an impeachable offense. This is a legal narrative, not a political one. But it has heretofore not been articulated publically by any Republican officeholder, until Amash courageously did so last weekend.

The Nixonian argument that the president can do no wrong was soundly rejected by the lessons of Watergate and Nixon’s reluctant resignation, but it has reared its head again. No serious legal thinker — not even an attorney general bent on protecting the president — can make it with intellectual honesty or a straight face.

On the other side of the congressional aisle are bitterly divided House Democrats. Some of them see Trump’s obstruction of justice as criminal and impeachable, and they add to that his refusal to abide lawful congressional subpoenas. Presidential rejection of congressional subpoenas was also an article of impeachment voted against Nixon.

Most Democratic congressional leadership thinks impeaching a popular president would be fruitless, and might even help Trump solidify his base. These folks have argued that impeachment should not be undertaken, no matter how criminal or impeachable his documented behavior, without a broad bipartisan consensus in support of it.

Has Donald Trump committed impeachable offenses? Even if he has, should the House move toward impeachment? Is the failure to consider impeachment a tacit ratification of Trump’s criminal behavior? Is there a duty to impeach? Is temporary presidential popularity a free pass to avoid the legal consequences of presidential criminal behavior?

Who beside Justin Amash will effectively address these questions?


https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/05/andrew-p-napolitano/to-impeach-or-not-to-impeach/

Swordsmyth
05-23-2019, 04:00 PM
Judge Swamp.

nobody's_hero
05-23-2019, 04:08 PM
Pretty sure there's not going to be an impeachment. No political points can be squeezed from this charade if it ends in conclusion. Of course, that would not stop them from moving on to something else to play over the airwaves from 12:00 AM to 11:59 PM, every day of the week, every week of your life. Next investigation will be if Trump flushed the toilet after he took a piss, or worse, did he fail to put the seat back down when he finished?

We should be prepared to fully support such further investigations, on principle of course.

Anti Globalist
05-23-2019, 04:12 PM
Pretty sure there's not going to be an impeachment. No political points can be squeezed from this charade if it ends in conclusion. Of course, that would not stop them from moving on to something else to play over the airwaves from 12:00 AM to 11:59 PM, every day of the week, every week of your life. Next investigation will be if Trump flushed the toilet after he took a piss, or worse, did he fail to put the seat back down when he finished?

We should be prepared to fully support such further investigations, on principle of course.
Or worse, did he wash his hands after using the bathroom?

nobody's_hero
05-23-2019, 04:22 PM
Or worse, did he wash his hands after using the bathroom?

I thought about that, but for maximum impact, they should save that charge in case they wear out the first two. Remember, the idea is to stretch the non-issues out as long as possible for political gain.

RonZeplin
05-23-2019, 05:17 PM
The Deep State D&R party protects their own. Trump is safe in the arms of the DS.

https://historyfirstdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/wjc-impeached.jpg?w=661

Bill & Hill still free as birds

spudea
05-23-2019, 05:27 PM
More lies, nap is clearly compromised.

Anti Federalist
05-23-2019, 05:43 PM
Tired of the blab...Pelosi cannot control her mob of Bolsheviks...go for it I say.

Maybe that's the spark that's needed.

But for fuck's sake, impeach or shut the fuck up about it.

ThePaleoLibertarian
05-23-2019, 06:06 PM
Moving forward on impeachment isn't a good strategy for Democrats. There are lots of people who don't like Trump, but I don't think there's all that many who want him impeached. Clinton's impeachment probably helped him in the long run, really.

phill4paul
05-23-2019, 06:44 PM
Tired of the blab...Pelosi cannot control her mob of Bolsheviks...go for it I say.

Maybe that's the spark that's needed.

But for fuck's sake, impeach or shut the fuck up about it.

Yup. It's gonna have to go into the election year so we can hear Biden or Buttplug screech "Impeach!"

UWDude
05-23-2019, 08:04 PM
I remember when real Nap said Five eyes helped the coup along.

Then he disappeared.

Then he came back as clone Nap.

enhanced_deficit
05-23-2019, 11:41 PM
Must be coincidence that the week polls started showing MAGA losing to 3 Dems so early in the game, talks of impeachment and 2020 GOP challenges is everywhere suddenly.
Some people just don't seem to like a small government, cut spending , self-funded , swamp draining, America-Firster former reality TV star. Watch their surprise once they find out that Pence is way too Biblical and Christian values minded to be running today's modern, diverse, liberal socialist values America.

Latest TDS Republican:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/icons/icon13.png Ex-GOP lawmaker pens op-ed calling for Trump to be impeached (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?534868-Ex-GOP-lawmaker-pens-op-ed-calling-for-Trump-to-be-impeached&)

shakey1
05-24-2019, 08:44 AM
Yup. It's gonna have to go into the election year so we can hear Biden or Buttplug screech "Impeach!"

Yeah, the Dems will run on this... & free stuff.

Superfluous Man
05-24-2019, 08:57 AM
Yeah, the Dems will run on this... & free stuff.

I doubt that they'll run on impeachment. Not unless something else happens between now and the election that makes that popular enough among voters for it to be a winning issue. But if that happens, then they'd just beat him outright anyway.

The whole point of impeachment is to oust the President without an election.

Todd
05-24-2019, 09:36 AM
Some people just don't seem to like a small government, cut spending , self-funded , swamp draining, America-Firster former reality TV star. Watch their surprise once they find out that Pence is way too Biblical and Christian values minded to be running today's modern, diverse, liberal socialist values America.

Lol. Still waiting for any of that to take place. You can't be serious.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-24-2019, 09:53 AM
Think like a democrat

Have Trump say he'll build the wall under oath
defund the wall with congress
impeach him for lying!

angelatc
05-24-2019, 10:15 AM
Judge Swamp.
The non-stop ad hominem attacks, lacking even any basic pretense of succinct, well thought out rebuttals should be a big clue to anybody on the fence here.

The Trumpers lost any right to claim their ground loftily lies above the swamp with the appointment of Abraham and Bolton.

angelatc
05-24-2019, 10:20 AM
Moving forward on impeachment isn't a good strategy for Democrats. There are lots of people who don't like Trump, but I don't think there's all that many who want him impeached. Clinton's impeachment probably helped him in the long run, really.

The whole notion that the political effects of holding hearings is a consideration perfectly exemplifies what's wrong with both sides of the aisle.

'' We should move forward with impeachment if it means we will win some elections.''
'' We should not move forward with impeachment if it means we will lose elections.''

If we want leaders to rise above politics, this isn't it. But politics are what they are.

angelatc
05-24-2019, 10:23 AM
The whole point of impeachment is to oust the President without an election.

Not how it works. Clinton was impeached.

Brian4Liberty
05-24-2019, 10:26 AM
Mueller indicted Russians for interference, and he found evidence of a criminal conspiracy, but not enough evidence to prove the conspiracy case to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

IIRC, weren’t those charges completely bogus?

UWDude
05-24-2019, 10:29 AM
The non-stop ad hominem attacks, lacking even any basic pretense of succinct, well thought out rebuttals should be a big clue to anybody on the fence here.

The Trumpers lost any right to claim their ground loftily lies above the swamp with the appointment of Abraham and Bolton.

How about the part where Nap said that GCHQ was helping the leftist coup, and then was thrown off the air, and then came back months later parroting the leftist coup narrative?

Is that ad-hominem as well?

Brian4Liberty
05-24-2019, 10:30 AM
The investigation of Russians and potential American collaborators expanded because of personal behavior of President Trump, which was aimed at delaying or derailing Mueller’s investigation.

Is that how it works? Investigation into A expands into an obstruction of the investigation when the target complains?

Brian4Liberty
05-24-2019, 10:42 AM
The more serious and clearly criminal of these obstruction events consists in Trump instructing those who worked for him in the White House to put documents containing material falsehoods into government files that were about to be subpoenaed, and instructing the same folks to lie to FBI agents. Mueller did not seek an indictment of the president on these crimes because he knew that Barr, his boss, would not permit one. The reasons Barr has given for not permitting the indictment are legally troublesome; they constitute a very narrow reading of the obstruction of justice statute and a misapplication of Department of Justice policy.

Barr has not permitted Mueller to seek an indictment of Trump because Barr reads the obstruction statute as letting Trump off the hook because he was not charged with conspiracy to collaborate with the Russians — the original crime Mueller was investigating. That view of obstruction — an innocent person cannot legally obstruct an FBI investigation of himself — has been rejected by nearly all law enforcement, including by Barr’s own DOJ prosecutors.

So finally we have what is the worst of the “obstruction” accusations. Documents put into files and people instructed to lie. Might be good to see the details of that. So many stories are leaving out specifics.

As far as “narrow” readings of statutes, the opposite of that would be broad and loose. Prosecutors often do go broad and loose on interpreting laws and prosecuting them, but that precedent does not mean it’s good, fair or even legal (i.e. would stand up to appeal in an honest judicial system).

angelatc
05-24-2019, 10:50 AM
Is that how it works? Investigation into A expands into an obstruction of the investigation when the target complains?

If you read the original authorization, it specifically anthorizes Mueller to prosecute other crimes


(b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James B. Corney in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:

(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and

(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and

(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).



So finally we have what is the worst of the “obstruction” accusations. Documents put into files and people instructed to lie. Might be good to see the details of that. So many stories are leaving out specifics.

Maybe we should read the report instead of relying on other people to tell us what it does and does not say.

Superfluous Man
05-24-2019, 11:06 AM
Not how it works. Clinton was impeached.

And then found not guilty by the Senate. But impeachment was part of a process that, if he were found guilty, would have resulted in his removal from office without losing an election. That's the point of it. It is how it works.

Superfluous Man
05-24-2019, 11:07 AM
Is that how it works? Investigation into A expands into an obstruction of the investigation when the target complains?

Is that all that Amash is accusing Trump of doing? Just complaining?

UWDude
05-24-2019, 11:26 AM
Is that all that Amash is accusing Trump of doing? Just complaining?

why is Amash targetting the victim of the coup, yet saying nothing of the coup plotters?

"principled"

Swordsmyth
05-24-2019, 01:33 PM
The non-stop ad hominem attacks, lacking even any basic pretense of succinct, well thought out rebuttals should be a big clue to anybody on the fence here.

The Trumpers lost any right to claim their ground loftily lies above the swamp with the appointment of Abraham and Bolton.
I've refuted this garbage in detail many times and proven that Judge Swamp has sold out many times.

Swordsmyth
05-24-2019, 01:35 PM
IIRC, weren’t those charges completely bogus?
Yes but don't bother telling the TDS crowd, anything said against Trump is 100% according to them.

Swordsmyth
05-24-2019, 01:37 PM
So finally we have what is the worst of the “obstruction” accusations. Documents put into files and people instructed to lie. Might be good to see the details of that. So many stories are leaving out specifics.

As far as “narrow” readings of statutes, the opposite of that would be broad and loose. Prosecutors often do go broad and loose on interpreting laws and prosecuting them, but that precedent does not mean it’s good, fair or even legal (i.e. would stand up to appeal in an honest judicial system).

And don't forget that the entire investigation was illegal to the core and you can't obstruct an illegal investigation.

Swordsmyth
05-24-2019, 01:39 PM
If you read the original authorization, it specifically authorizes Mueller to prosecute other crimes
Since the entire investigation was illegal that doesn't matter.






Maybe we should read the report instead of relying on other people to tell us what it does and does not say.
Or maybe we should burn it to ashes as the fruit of a poisonous tree.

Brian4Liberty
05-24-2019, 03:16 PM
Maybe we should read the report instead of relying on other people to tell us what it does and does not say.

They don’t write 400 page reports and 2000 page bills so that people can read them...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFEoMO0pc7k

The Judge could have foot noted the specific page(s) he was talking about.

Swordsmyth
05-24-2019, 03:24 PM
They don’t write 400 page reports and 2000 page bills so that people can read them...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFEoMO0pc7k

The Judge could have foot noted the specific page(s) he was talking about.
He could have but then he would look stupid and people would see he hadn't a leg to stand on.
As it is people with TDS will just have blind faith that he is right.

phill4paul
05-24-2019, 10:10 PM
I doubt that they'll run on impeachment. Not unless something else happens between now and the election that makes that popular enough among voters for it to be a winning issue. But if that happens, then they'd just beat him outright anyway.

The whole point of impeachment is to oust the President without an election.

Oh, somethings gonna happen....

Oh, Lol. LOLOLOL.

Too Funny!

So now that Trump has authorized Barr to release classified documents pertaining to the Obama administrations spying on the President Elect, Schitt cries foul.

I thought we WANTED un-redacted classified documents?

Ahahaha! This schitt is just too good!


Rep. Adam Schiff: Declassifying Documents Is ‘New and Dangerous Phase’ of Trump’s 'Coverup'

As Democrats continue to demand redacted grand jury information and President Donald Trump’s financial and tax records, House Intelligence Committee Chair Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) Thursday accused Trump of trying “to weaponize law enforcement.”

Schiff also attacked Trump’s decision to authorize Attorney General William Barr to declassify information related to the federal investigation of the 2016 presidential campaign.

Rep. Schiff took to Twitter to criticize Trump for making information publicly available while engaging in a dangerous “coverup”:

"While Trump stonewalls the public from learning the truth about his obstruction of justice, Trump and Barr conspire to weaponize law enforcement and classified information against their political enemies. The coverup has entered a new and dangerous phase. This is un-American."

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/rep-adam-schiff-declassifying-documents-new-and-dangerous-phase-trumps-coverup?fbclid=IwAR1irl_r47T6PaLIV3XIO1DDhuEnZa30i tGmLdsEYrRgRfpsPzuhe__YEOk

phill4paul
05-24-2019, 10:12 PM
Fuck Judge Swamp. He's been dead to me now for quite some time.