Rand says Amash wrong to call for Trump's impeachment.

[phill4paul]

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) says Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) was wrong to suggest that President Donald Trump committed obstruction of justice and should be impeached for it.

Amash over the weekend became the first Republican in the House to support impeachment proceedings for Trump based on special counsel Robert Mueller’s report. He accused his party of abandoning its principles to accommodate Trump by ignoring evidence of the president’s obstruction of justice.

“President Trump has engaged in impeachable conduct,” Amash tweeted on Saturday.

The Michigan congressman, who has first elected during the 2010 Tea Party wave, has also toyed with the idea of abandoning the GOP to run for president as a Libertarian.

But Paul, a libertarian-leaning senator from Kentucky who has grown close with Trump, said Amash got it all wrong. He called the Mueller report the “antithesis of libertarianism.”


“I actually think the libertarian position on the investigation is ― you know, libertarians, we’ve been very, very critical of the intelligence community having too much power, including congressman Amash has said, you know, really you should have to get a warrant before you get an American’s records,” Paul told HuffPost in a brief interview on Wednesday.



Paul said he believed the Mueller investigation was “an abuse of intelligence power consistent with what libertarians have been complaining about for a long time.” He further said he supported an amendment offered by Amash in the House “which says you have to have a warrant before you target Americans because foreign intelligence warrants have a lower standard.”


The conservative House Freedom Caucus, which Amash helped found, even voted to condemn his remarks.

Paul did not answer a reporter’s question on Wednesday whether he agreed with the House Freedom Caucus’ decision to censure Amash.


https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/justin-amash-rand-paul-impeachment-223525828.html

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Amash's strategically ill-advised blunder might be good for Rand.

[Schifference]

To use one of Rand's most used lines, "the interesting thing is," Rand's remarks should show this forum that opinions differ. Rand just said Amash was wrong. Okay. Some members here chastise people for saying Amash was wrong. Maybe Ron will go on record saying Amash was right. So when two lovers of liberty disagree, who is right? Is that when chaos and civil wars break out?

[goldenequity]

1131516652057780227
https://twitter.com/russian_market/status/1131516652057780227

[PAF]

To use one of Rand's most used lines, "the interesting thing is," Rand's remarks should show this forum that opinions differ. Rand just said Amash was wrong. Okay. Some members here chastise people for saying Amash was wrong. Maybe Ron will go on record saying Amash was right. So when two lovers of liberty disagree, who is right? Is that when chaos and civil wars break out?

This reminds me of a favorite quote that I invented and still repeat often, up to and including Tampa convention, hoping adults would make the correct choice back in the 2012 election. It goes like this:

Vote the Record, Not the Rhetoric

[nobody's_hero]

To use one of Rand's most used lines, "the interesting thing is," Rand's remarks should show this forum that opinions differ. Rand just said Amash was wrong. Okay. Some members here chastise people for saying Amash was wrong. Maybe Ron will go on record saying Amash was right. So when two lovers of liberty disagree, who is right? Is that when chaos and civil wars break out?

ALERT ALERT! GET ME THE PURITY KIT, STAT!

I think we're gonna have to drop you in the water to see if you float. That is blasphemous talk, sir.

EDIT: Seriously, I think Ron Paul has called this whole investigation thing a farce from day one. It would be really hard for me to imagine him saying this was a good move by Amash.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bthliot_wg

Objectivity. Gotta love it.

[juleswin]

Rand Paul is the convenient libertarian, he turns that ideology on and off as it suits him. Regardless, Amash is more of a constitutionalist that a libertarian so it is consistent with his MO to call for impeachment when he think a president has committed high crime. I don't agree with him in this instance, just wish he would up his threshold to bigger crimes like starting unauthorized wars.

[ATruepatriot]

Rand Paul is the convenient libertarian, he turns that ideology on and off as it suits him. Regardless, Amash is more of a constitutionalist that a libertarian so it is consistent with his MO to call for impeachment when he think a president has committed high crime. I don't agree with him in this instance, just wish he would up his threshold to bigger crimes like starting unauthorized wars.

Something I have observed over the years is that Libertarianism is pretty ironic in true practice. While preaching individualism and liberty, anyone who deviates from 100% rank and file lock step with the doctrine principles is stoned and persecuted as not worthy, even to the point of wanting excommunication from the public square. While the principles are sound, the true example in practice is hypocritical and anti-individualism. It's just like the Constitutional party claiming they "support Constitutional freedom of religion" just as long as it is a "recognized form of Christianity".

[Superfluous Man]

Rand is right about the intelligence community. But as far as I've seen, in none of Amash's statements has he said anything approving of the intelligence community. It's possible to oppose them, including their actions with respect to the Trump investigation, and still believe that Trump behaved himself improperly.

[enhanced_deficit]

Anybody can be wrong on anything and good people can differ on things details for which not in full view yet. In an Amash vs MAGA evaluation, one key metric would be who has track record of having pro-liberty principles and direction. Overall Amash appears much more pro-liberty than Israel-First pro-war neoconservative funded GOP-Adelson wing (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?529824-Why-Trump-is-not-applauded-as-the-first-self-funded-POTUS-non-puppet-of-lobbies&p=6801536&viewfull=1#post6801536) and the neocons cabal it is surrounded by.

[juleswin]

Something I have observed over the years is that Libertarianism is pretty ironic in true practice. While preaching individualism and liberty, anyone who deviates from 100% rank and file lock step with the doctrine principles is stoned and persecuted as not worthy, even to the point of wanting excommunication from the public square. While the principles are sound, the true example in practice is hypocritical and anti-individualism. It's just like the Constitutional party claiming they "support Constitutional freedom of religion" just as long as it is a "recognized form of Christianity".

Ron Paul, Rand Paul and even Justin Amash have deviated from the libertarian philosophy and all are still beloved by libertarians. I think you run into problems when your ideology in totality threatens the individual freedoms of those libertarians. And who would blame them for reacting to the loss of their freedom. Also just because individuals react in a certain way to certain behaviour doesn't make em the mobs. Tigers for example are very individualistic and they all react the same way to someone pulling their tails.

Not ironic or hypocritical when u really think about it.

[nobody's_hero]

Something I have observed over the years is that Libertarianism is pretty ironic in true practice. While preaching individualism and liberty, anyone who deviates from 100% rank and file lock step with the doctrine principles is stoned and persecuted as not worthy, even to the point of wanting excommunication from the public square. While the principles are sound, the true example in practice is hypocritical and anti-individualism. It's just like the Constitutional party claiming they "support Constitutional freedom of religion" just as long as it is a "recognized form of Christianity".

I've found that people who espouse a belief in the Non-Aggression principle are often some of the most passive-aggressive people you'll ever meet.

[ATruepatriot]

Ron Paul, Rand Paul and even Justin Amash have deviated from the libertarian philosophy and all are still beloved by libertarians.

And they are only given a pass for imperfection because they are useful tools to further one's own personal interests. Everyone else is held to a strict non-individualistic doctrine checklist when being judged by the "individuals". As soon as these representatives are no longer useful to further self interest they will be stoned, persecuted, and excommunicated just like everyone else impure.


I think you run into problems when your ideology in totality threatens the individual freedoms of those libertarians. And who would blame them for reacting to the loss of their freedom. Also just because individuals react in a certain way to certain behaviour doesn't make em the mobs. Tigers for example are very individualistic and they all react the same way to someone pulling their tails.

Sure... Because these Tigers are only concerned about threats to their own tails, they could care less about other Tigers or even the future survival of the species it's self.

[ATruepatriot]

I've found that people who espouse a belief in the Non-Aggression principle are often some of the most passive-aggressive people you'll ever meet.

I see that too, so many violent physical threats over the years from those who do believe in it.

[juleswin]

And they are only given a pass for imperfection because they are useful tools to further one's own personal interests. Everyone else is held to a strict non-individualistic doctrine checklist when being judged by the "individuals". As soon as these representatives are no longer useful to further self interest they will be stoned, persecuted, and excommunicated just like everyone else impure.



Sure... Because these Tigers are only concerned about threats to their own tails, they could care less about other Tigers or even the future survival of the species it's self.

Remember when Ron tried to use the UN to get his domain back? he got an earful from the faithful for trying that. I think for the most part many libertarians are very supportive when he does something in line with that principle, fairly silent when he deviates a little and fairly angry when he deviates a lot. Which I think is very normal for even a individualist group like libertarians.

[juleswin]

Passive aggression is not that different from microaggression. Its annoying but doesn't violate the NAP. Maybe we can create a safe zone for people that can't handle a little passive aggression :)

[angelatc]

But Paul, a libertarian-leaning senator from Kentucky who has grown close with Trump, said Amash got it all wrong. He called the Mueller report the “antithesis of libertarianism.”

“I actually think the libertarian position on the investigation is ― you know, libertarians, we’ve been very, very critical of the intelligence community having too much power, including congressman Amash has said, you know, really you should have to get a warrant before you get an American’s records,” Paul told HuffPost

The position that the intelligence community abused their power does not contradict the position that Trump attempted to obstruct the investigation

[nikcers]

The position that the intelligence community abused their power does not contradict the position that Trump attempted to obstruct the investigation
The investigation started from a lie and lies were used in order to circumvent people's constitutional rights. Its like Trump was getting attacked by a giant boot and he tried to defend himself from it. There is no way someone who is for limited government would approve of the government boot being used to stamp people out it disagrees with.

[angelatc]

Anybody can be wrong on anything and good people can differ on things details for which not in full view yet. In an Amash vs MAGA evaluation, one key metric would be who has track record of having pro-liberty principles and direction. Overall Amash appears much more pro-liberty than Israel-First pro-war neoconservative funded GOP-Adelson wing (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?529824-Why-Trump-is-not-applauded-as-the-first-self-funded-POTUS-non-puppet-of-lobbies&p=6801536&viewfull=1#post6801536) and the neocons cabal it is surrounded by.

This. I don't agree with anybody on everything. But I did not file for divorce the first time my husband and I voted for different candidates. I certainly don't understand abandoning Amash over his opinion here. But people are gonna people I guess

[PierzStyx]

“I actually think the libertarian position on the investigation is ― you know, libertarians, we’ve been very, very critical of the intelligence community having too much power, including congressman Amash has said, you know, really you should have to get a warrant before you get an American’s records,” Paul told HuffPost

How would he know? According to his own words he is not a libertarian.


Pure libertarians, [Rand Paul] says, believe the market should dictate policy on nearly everything from the environment to health care. Paul has lately said he would not leave abortion to the states, he doesn't believe in legalizing drugs like marijuana and cocaine, he'd support federal drug laws, he'd vote to support Kentucky's coal interests and he'd be tough on national security.

"They thought all along that they could call me a libertarian and hang that label around my neck like an albatross, but I'm not a libertarian," Paul says between Lasik surgeries at his medical office, where his campaign is headquartered, with a few desks crammed between treatment rooms.

http://content.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1972721,00.html#ixzz1yjNZ8V8Q

I don't for a minute believe that a guy who believes in supporting the national-security deep state, supports the War on Drugs -which is really a war on basic liberty- who believes the government has the right to tell you what medications you can or cannot use and then beat, cage, or kill you for using them without Big Brother's permission, who wants to use the national government to extend socialized privileges to major corporations using funds extorted form the public, who has lovingly pledged his loyalty to Party over principle, who himself has denied he is a libertarian, I doubt such a person even knows what the libertarian position on anything is. It isn't surprising though, Rand has always put his political career ahead of supporting basic ideals of liberty and freedom.

[angelatc]

The investigation started from a lie and lies were used in order to circumvent people's constitutional rights. Its like Trump was getting attacked by a giant boot and he tried to defend himself from it. There is no way someone who is for limited government would approve of the government boot being used to stamp people out it disagrees with.

It can be said 100 different ways, but I see two different issues. One is that the investigation should not have happened. But it did, and Congress authorized it.

The second issue is if Trump tried to interfere with that investigation.

He won't get a pass on the second matter no matter what happened on the first. Watergate and the Lewinsky scandal are evidence of that.

Amash is not some anti-liberty trojan horse because he believes in the rule of law.

[Superfluous Man]

The investigation started from a lie and lies were used in order to circumvent people's constitutional rights. Its like Trump was getting attacked by a giant boot and he tried to defend himself from it. There is no way someone who is for limited government would approve of the government boot being used to stamp people out it disagrees with.

Can you quote Amash approving of what you're calling the government boot?

[juleswin]

The investigation started from a lie and lies were used in order to circumvent people's constitutional rights. Its like Trump was getting attacked by a giant boot and he tried to defend himself from it. There is no way someone who is for limited government would approve of the government boot being used to stamp people out it disagrees with.

Its not like getting attacked with a boot. The result would have been exactly the same if no obstruction happened. Sadly to say I will bring up this saying into the conversation "but if one is innocent, there is nothing to hide". I believe wholeheartedly that he did not collude with Russia and being threatened with a boot should not cause him to obstruct justice.

Lemme say it again, he was being investigated and not hunted down with a boot to be beaten with. Looking at the end result, it seems like his actions to "defend" himself ended up making things worse for himself.

[donnay]

If Amash wants justice how come he is not concerned with the democrats obstruction, the FBI, the CIA or better yet, Hillary Clinton's obstruction?

[PursuePeace]

It isn't surprising though, Rand has always put his political career ahead of supporting basic ideals of liberty and freedom.

http://images2.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED33/51e658ac40139.jpeg

[juleswin]

How would he know? According to his own words he is not a libertarian.



I don't for a minute believe that a guy who believes in supporting the national-security deep state, supports the War on Drugs -which is really a war on basic liberty- who believes the government has the right to tell you what medications you can or cannot use and then beat, cage, or kill you for using them without Big Brother's permission, who wants to use the national government to extend socialized privileges to major corporations using funds extorted form the public, who has lovingly pledged his loyalty to Party over principle, who himself has denied he is a libertarian, I doubt such a person even knows what the libertarian position on anything is. It isn't surprising though, Rand has always put his political career ahead of supporting basic ideals of liberty and freedom.

I think Rand has been playing a balancing act between principles and party. I wish he would side more with principle but then again but I fear his goal is to win in politics and that would collapse that goal of his.

[nikcers]

Can you quote Amash approving of what you're calling the government boot?
The whole call for impeachment using this investigation as the reason. Anything born from this fake 35 million dollar investigation should automatically be considered unconstitutional and because of all the constitutional games they played they belong in jail.

[ATruepatriot]

Remember when Ron tried to use the UN to get his domain back? he got an earful from the faithful for trying that. I think for the most part many libertarians are very supportive when he does something in line with that principle, fairly silent when he deviates a little and fairly angry when he deviates a lot. Which I think is very normal for even a individualist group like libertarians.

Only because they were concerned for their own tails and strict doctrine of self interest above even Ron Paul and trust in his wisdom. This is exactly what I observe.

[Superfluous Man]

The whole call for impeachment using this investigation as the reason. Anything born from this fake 35 million dollar investigation should automatically be considered unconstitutional and because of all the constitutional games they played they belong in jail.

Anything? So because of the impropriety of the investigation Trump has a blank check to do anything at all, no matter what it is, and as long as it's a result of this investigation it's automatically ok?

Can't you consider the possibility that Amash could both oppose the "government boot" that you see at work in this investigation and also oppose Trump's response to it without any inconsistency?

[jon4liberty]

How would he know? According to his own words he is not a libertarian.



I don't for a minute believe that a guy who believes in supporting the national-security deep state, supports the War on Drugs -which is really a war on basic liberty- who believes the government has the right to tell you what medications you can or cannot use and then beat, cage, or kill you for using them without Big Brother's permission, who wants to use the national government to extend socialized privileges to major corporations using funds extorted form the public, who has lovingly pledged his loyalty to Party over principle, who himself has denied he is a libertarian, I doubt such a person even knows what the libertarian position on anything is. It isn't surprising though, Rand has always put his political career ahead of supporting basic ideals of liberty and freedom.

Good luck advancing liberty. One term, no allies, no advancement of liberty would be your political results.

[PursuePeace]

Good luck advancing liberty. One term, no allies, no advancement of liberty would be your political results.

Exactly.

[TER]

Good luck advancing liberty. One term, no allies, no advancement of liberty would be your political results.

The reality in this fallen world is that impeaching Trump for obstruction when he was basically entrapped because of an illegal witch hunt (if he actually even did obstruct) does nothing to advance liberty. It’s results are probably Joe Biden in the White House. Would this be acceptable for Amash? Would such a result be worth it? Absolutely not, and that is why Rand is the smarter person in this instance and I am happy he is taking a stand against Justin in this (which I know probably wasn’t easy for him to do).

[ATruepatriot]

The reality in this fallen world is that impeaching Trump for obstruction when he was basically entrapped because of an illegal witch hunt (if he actually even did obstruct) does nothing to advance liberty. It’s results are probably Joe Biden in the White House. Would this be acceptable for Amash? Would such a result be worth it? Absolutely not, and that is why Rand is the smarter person in this instance and I am happy he is taking a stand against Justin in this (which I know probably wasn’t easy for him to do).

Common sense reality.

[samforpaul]

Vote the Record, Not the Rhetoric



May I use that quote?
Well put.

[nikcers]

Anything? So because of the impropriety of the investigation Trump has a blank check to do anything at all, no matter what it is, and as long as it's a result of this investigation it's automatically ok?

Can't you consider the possibility that Amash could both oppose the "government boot" that you see at work in this investigation and also oppose Trump's response to it without any inconsistency?
They deliberately ignored the constitution by using a FISA warrant, a lower than constitutional court that is for foreigners, on Americans. I don't care what the fuck it is, they do not need to make it normal to treat Americans like foreigners this is exactly what they said they wouldn't do when they created the fucking patriot act.

[juleswin]

The reality in this fallen world is that impeaching Trump for obstruction when he was basically entrapped because of an illegal witch hunt (if he actually even did obstruct) does nothing to advance liberty. It’s results are probably Joe Biden in the White House. Would this be acceptable for Amash? Would such a result be worth it? Absolutely not, and that is why Rand is the smarter person in this instance and I am happy he is taking a stand against Justin in this (which I know probably wasn’t easy for him to do).

How was Trump entraped and how did his "obstructing" justice help? He was innocent all along and he did not have to do anything to evade this investigation.

[devil21]

To use one of Rand's most used lines, "the interesting thing is," Rand's remarks should show this forum that opinions differ. Rand just said Amash was wrong. Okay. Some members here chastise people for saying Amash was wrong. Maybe Ron will go on record saying Amash was right. So when two lovers of liberty disagree, who is right? Is that when chaos and civil wars break out?

They're just opinions from people and don't have to be "right" or "wrong". See my sig line about politicians. I remember when RPF was bustling back in the day, full of people posting different opinions on topics, but we all pretty much agreed that governments have grown to control way too many aspects of life. "Right" or "wrong" wasn't of much importance. But the media and other foot soldiers have since worked very hard to break that down and reinstall the right/wrong - black/white false paradigms. Right/wrong is the foundation of divide and conquer.

[nikcers]

How was Trump entraped and how did his "obstructing" justice help? He was innocent all along and he did not have to do anything to evade this investigation.
So if you are innocent you don't have to defend yourself in the justice system? You should try that some time in this profit driven justice system some day, I am sure if you got nothing to hide you got nothing to fear...

[juleswin]

So if you are innocent you don't have to defend yourself in the justice system? You should try that some time in this profit driven justice system some day, I am sure if you got nothing to hide you got nothing to fear...

It depends on what you do to defend yourself. If a man who was wrongfully accused of rape does about to destroy the rape kit, I doubt people would chuck it off as him trying to defend himself. He should have gotten a lawyer and keep his mouth shut. He didn't need to go around talking to potential witnesses about the case and the other things he was accused to doing to obstruct justice.

[Brian4Liberty]

The position that the intelligence community abused their power does not contradict the position that Trump attempted to obstruct the investigation

I haven’t kept up with all of threads and posts on the subject, but this one stood out:


And it is no different than charging somebody under the sole charge of "resisting arrest" when no other crime has been committed. It is a strange world when one sees self claimed libertarians arguing in favor of such absurdities.

It’s pretty dangerous when anything other than complete submission to the “authorities”, whoever those individuals may be at the moment, is considered a crime. It’s very close to making any defense or attempt at defense a crime. No more need for defense lawyers, all we need are prosecutors.

[nikcers]

It depends on what you do to defend yourself. If a man who was wrongfully accused of rape does about to destroy the rape kit, I doubt people would chuck it off as him trying to defend himself. He should have gotten a lawyer and keep his mouth shut. He didn't need to go around talking to potential witnesses about the case and the other things he was accused to doing to obstruct justice.
He shouldn't of been treated like a foreigner.

[juleswin]

He shouldn't of been treated like a foreigner.

Well, life is not fair. He was accused of a crime he did not commit and he could have easily beaten the case without making new problems for himself. Luckily for him, people are interested in impeachment right now. He should count his blessings

[ATruepatriot]

I haven’t kept up with all of threads and posts on the subject, but this one stood out:



It’s pretty dangerous when anything other than complete submission to the “authorities”, whoever those individuals may be at the moment, is considered a crime. It’s very close to making any defense or attempt at defense a crime. No more need for defense lawyers, all we need are prosecutors.

Very well said... It is a very poor precedent to support. The next president might be a Libertarian and will not be immune from this very same precedent.

[Superfluous Man]

They deliberately ignored the constitution by using a FISA warrant, a lower than constitutional court that is for foreigners, on Americans. I don't care what the $#@! it is, they do not need to make it normal to treat Americans like foreigners this is exactly what they said they wouldn't do when they created the $#@!ing patriot act.

Can you quote Amash approving of anything you're complaining about?

[nikcers]

Can you quote Amash approving of anything you're complaining about?
Well you see what had happened was (studders) Justin Amash declared Trump should be impeached based on a report he read based on an investigation that was based on Hillary Clinton's witch hunt.

[Swordsmyth]

ALERT ALERT! GET ME THE PURITY KIT, STAT!

I think we're gonna have to drop you in the water to see if you float. That is blasphemous talk, sir.

EDIT: Seriously, I think Ron Paul has called this whole investigation thing a farce from day one. It would be really hard for me to imagine him saying this was a good move by Amash.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bthliot_wg

Objectivity. Gotta love it.
White Supremacist.

[Swordsmyth]

Rand Paul is the convenient libertarian, he turns that ideology on and off as it suits him. Regardless, Amash is more of a constitutionalist that a libertarian so it is consistent with his MO to call for impeachment when he think a president has committed high crime. I don't agree with him in this instance, just wish he would up his threshold to bigger crimes like starting unauthorized wars.
Amash is twisting the Constitution and he doesn't even claim that Trump committed a High Crime, he claims that the threshold for impeachment is "dishonorable behavior" an entirely subjective standard that makes a mockery of the Constitution.

[Swordsmyth]

Anybody can be wrong on anything and good people can differ on things details for which not in full view yet. In an Amash vs MAGA evaluation, one key metric would be who has track record of having pro-liberty principles and direction. Overall Amash appears much more pro-liberty than Israel-First pro-war neoconservative funded GOP-Adelson wing (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?529824-Why-Trump-is-not-applauded-as-the-first-self-funded-POTUS-non-puppet-of-lobbies&p=6801536&viewfull=1#post6801536) and the neocons cabal it is surrounded by.

Their record on other things is irrelevant and to try to involve it is either stupid or dishonest, it shows that the pro-impeachment side hasn't got a leg to stand on.

[Swordsmyth]

I've found that people who espouse a belief in the Non-Aggression principle are often some of the most passive-aggressive people you'll ever meet.
I concur.

[Swordsmyth]

The position that the intelligence community abused their power does not contradict the position that Trump attempted to obstruct the investigation
Yes it does, you can't obstruct an illegal investigation, Trump should have just fired Mueller if political concerns hadn't dictated otherwise.

[Swordsmyth]

It can be said 100 different ways, but I see two different issues. One is that the investigation should not have happened. But it did, and Congress authorized it.

The second issue is if Trump tried to interfere with that investigation.

He won't get a pass on the second matter no matter what happened on the first. Watergate and the Lewinsky scandal are evidence of that.

Amash is not some anti-liberty trojan horse because he believes in the rule of law.
If Amash believed in the rule of law he would defend Trump's right to have shut down the investigation as illegal and call for the investigation and prosecution of those involved.

[Swordsmyth]

Anything? So because of the impropriety of the investigation Trump has a blank check to do anything at all, no matter what it is, and as long as it's a result of this investigation it's automatically ok?
Yes, an illegal investigation is illegal.


Can't you consider the possibility that Amash could both oppose the "government boot" that you see at work in this investigation and also oppose Trump's response to it without any inconsistency?
No.

[Swordsmyth]

How was Trump entraped and how did his "obstructing" justice help? He was innocent all along and he did not have to do anything to evade this investigation.
Your ignorance is showing.

[Swordsmyth]

They're just opinions from people and don't have to be "right" or "wrong". See my sig line about politicians. I remember when RPF was bustling back in the day, full of people posting different opinions on topics, but we all pretty much agreed that governments have grown to control way too many aspects of life. "Right" or "wrong" wasn't of much importance. But the media and other foot soldiers have since worked very hard to break that down and reinstall the right/wrong - black/white false paradigms. Right/wrong is the foundation of divide and conquer.
And the satanist reveals himself again.

[Swordsmyth]

Well, life is not fair. He was accused of a crime he did not commit and he could have easily beaten the case without making new problems for himself. Luckily for him, people are interested in impeachment right now. He should count his blessings
You are making a false comparison, he wasn't just wrongfully accused, the investigation was illegal and rigged, he was being framed and railroaded.

[juleswin]

You are making a false comparison, he wasn't just wrongfully accused, the investigation was illegal and rigged, he was being framed and railroaded.

This investigation started in his DOJ. If illegal? Then also punish him 4 starting an illegal investigation

[Swordsmyth]

This investigation started in his DOJ. If illegal? Then also punish him 4 starting an illegal investigation
LOL

It started long before he took office and he did not appoint the officials who participated in it nor can he be held accountable for their illegal actions against him that he did not approve.

TDS is a horrible disease.

[Cleaner44]

Rand is right and Amash is being stupid. Calling for the impeachment of Trump does nothing positive and only alienates him from Republican voters. It is a situation where Amash can only lose. This leaves me wondering... what was the purpose?

[Swordsmyth]

Rand is right and Amash is being stupid. Calling for the impeachment of Trump does nothing positive and only alienates him from Republican voters. It is a situation where Amash can only lose. This leaves me wondering... what was the purpose?

This also the worst possible time to make him feel that he needs Neocon votes to stay in office, right when they are pushing for shooting wars in Iran and Venezuela.

[phill4paul]

How would he know? According to his own words he is not a libertarian.


This isn't the Amash forums. It's the Ron/ Rand Paul forums.

I just knew some liberaltarian heads were gon' 'splode.

[angelatc]

Yes it does, you can't obstruct an illegal investigation, Trump should have just fired Mueller if political concerns hadn't dictated otherwise.

Ironically, the attempt to fire Mueller is one of the actions that some people say could be considered obstruction.

[angelatc]

Rand is right and Amash is being stupid. Calling for the impeachment of Trump does nothing positive and only alienates him from Republican voters. It is a situation where Amash can only lose. This leaves me wondering... what was the purpose?

Why is it so hard to fathom that he put principles over politics?

[Swordsmyth]

Ironically, the attempt to fire Mueller is one of the actions that some people say could be considered obstruction.
People with TDS.

And they would be the political considerations I mentioned.

[Swordsmyth]

Why is it so hard to fathom that he put principles over politics?
He didn't, he is putting politics over principles.

[UWDude]

Why is it so hard to fathom that he put principles over politics?
Because he has not done anything about a hoax investigation for two years.


that some people say could be considered

Sounds legit.

[TER]

Why is it so hard to fathom that he put principles over politics?

if you knew that taking a stand to satisfy a personal principle or selfish desire for justice would most likely lead to a state which would be much worse for innocent people around you, would you do it?

[angelatc]

People with TDS.

And they would be the political considerations I mentioned.

Disagreeing with Trump isn't always TDS any more than disagreeing with Obama is racist. Stop that.

[angelatc]

if you knew that taking a stand to satisfy a personal principle or selfish desire for justice would most likely lead to a state which would be much worse for innocent people around you, would you do it?

This isn't a selfish desire. He took an oath.

In this particular position, where my job was to uphold the law, even if it was at the expense of people around me, I hope I would do what I thought was right, even if I knew I'd be pissing off a lot of people.

[TER]

In this particular position, where my job was to uphold the law, even if it was at the expense of people around me, I hope I would do what I thought was right, even if I knew I'd be pissing off a lot of people.

The option was not pissing off a lot of people. It was causing a condition whereby innocent people would suffer.

[Swordsmyth]

Disagreeing with Trump isn't always TDS any more than disagreeing with Obama is racist. Stop that.

I never said it was but IT IS in this case, the treasonous coup was illegal from the start and at every point along the way.

[UWDude]

This isn't a selfish desire. He took an oath.

In this particular position, where my job was to uphold the law, even if it was at the expense of people around me, I hope I would do what I thought was right, even if I knew I'd be pissing off a lot of people.

He sure has failed at upholding the law for two years. Now he suddenly cares?
WTFEVER

[angelatc]

Because he has not done anything about a hoax investigation for two years.



Sounds legit.

I think we are all forgetting that the Trump team called for Amash's ouster in a 2017 rally. Or apparently we didn't care, because we have Trump delusional syndrome.

According to the WSJ, Amash stated that Trump should stop questioning the legitimacy of the judiciary before the Mueller investigation commenced. Mueller's report said that Congress should decide if Trumps actions were considered obstruction. Amash is in Congress.

[angelatc]

He sure has failed at upholding the law for two years. Now he suddenly cares?
WTFEVER

What law did he not uphold?

[angelatc]

I never said it was but IT IS in this case, the treasonous coup was illegal from the start and at every point along the way.

The investigation may have been a sham, but it was not illegal. (chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download)

[Swordsmyth]

I think we are all forgetting that the Trump team called for Amash's ouster in a 2017 rally. Or apparently we didn't care, because we have Trump delusional syndrome.

According to the WSJ, Amash stated that Trump should stop questioning the legitimacy of the judiciary before the Mueller investigation commenced. Mueller's report said that Congress should decide if Trumps actions were considered obstruction. Amash is in Congress.
Trump called for his ouster because he was on board the Russiagate bandwagon and I need details about Amash telling trump to stop questioning the legitimacy of the judiciary but if it was about the treasonous coup then he was wrong and if it was about all of the judges legislating from the bench to block Trump's agenda then he was wrong.

Amash is perverting the Constitution with his laughable definition of impeachable offenses.

[Swordsmyth]

The investigation may have been a sham, but it was not illegal. (http://chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download)
Yes it was.

Why does your link lead to a real estate site?

[angelatc]

Yes it was.

Why does your link lead to a real estate site?

Brave screws it up. Here is the document authorizing the investigation. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download

[Swordsmyth]

Brave screws it up. Here is the document authorizing the investigation. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download
That doesn't make it legal, the entire conspiracy has been riddled with illegalities and lies and the Mueller investigation had no legitimate basis, you can't just start an investigation of someone because you don't like them and conspiring to frame them doesn't let you do it either.

How have you managed to miss everything about this?

[angelatc]

Trump called for his ouster because he was on board the Russiagate bandwagon and the I need detail about Amash telling trump to stop questioning the legitimacy of the judiciary but if it was about the treasonous coup then he was wrong and if it was about all of the judges legislating from the bench to block Trump's agenda then he was wrong.

Amash is perverting the Constitution with his laughable definition of impeachable offenses.

Amash was on the Russiagate train? I didn't see that. Please link. What I saw was that AMash was accusing him of over-playing the scary terrorist card. ""Ultimately, the executive order appears to be more about politics than safety," Amash said. "If the concern is radicalism and terrorism, then what about Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and others?" (https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2017/01/rep_justin_amash_trumps_unlawf.html)

Trump also clashed with Amash when he refused to vote for Obamacare-lite.


Trump, apparently still smarting from being forced last week to drop a plan to replace the Affordable Care Act in the face of conservative intransigence, went on Twitter to say his supporters "must fight" members of the so-called Freedom Caucus that opposed the bill, presumably drumming up opposition for them in next year's elections if they "don't get on the team & fast."

That would include Amash, a Republican from Cascade Township, who was clear in his refusal to back House Speaker Paul Ryan's plan to replace the 2010 Democratic-led health care reform law throughout recent weeks, saying its system of continuing subsidies and insurance requirements effectively made it "Obamacare 2.0." (https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/30/amash-trump-feud-obamacare/99831206/)

Trump's a bully - we've always known that.

[angelatc]

That doesn't make it legal...

It actually does.

Apparently you're attempting to redefine the world legal.

[UWDude]

The investigation may have been a sham, but it was not illegal. (chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download)

Like hell it wasn't.

You can't poop in my mouth and tell me its chocolate.

People must hang for this.

Abusing the FISA court is illegal. It's fraud on the highest level.
That it was knowingly conspired with MI5 and MI6, against the duly elected president of the United States, makes it treason.

There must be executions.

[Swordsmyth]

It actually does.

Apparently you're attempting to redefine the world legal.
No i'm not, which is why you cut off the rest of what I said in your quote.

Let's get real simple and just ignore everything that came before Mueller:

Rosenstein: You should fire Comey because he did bad things

Also Rosenstein: I'm appointing a special counsel to investigate whether firing Comey was obstruction of justice

That's Entrapment and any investigation based on it it ILLEGAL.

[Swordsmyth]

Amash was on the Russiagate train? I didn't see that. Please link.

Rep. Justin Amash Considers Independent Investigation After Comey Firing (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?510486-Rep-Justin-Amash-Considers-Independent-Investigation-After-Comey-Firing)
I'm done with Amash (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?510698-I-m-done-with-Amash)
Amash on Trump-Putin Press Conference (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?524408-Amash-on-Trump-Putin-Press-Conference)He actually dared to criticize Ron and Rand about this one.

[UWDude]

Testified they were so concerned about the president being influenced by agents of Russia, yet they never warned him.

Doesn't sound like they were concerned at all. Sounds like they wanted him to be in collusion with Russian agents.

They even tried to sting him.

[Swordsmyth]

Amash was on the Russiagate train? I didn't see that. Please link.

http://i.imgur.com/GMafmPf.png

[UWDude]

Is it legal to use the FBI to frame the president for treason?

[Swordsmyth]

Is it legal to use the FBI to frame the president for treason?
While conspiring with foreign governments.

[enhanced_deficit]

http://i.imgur.com/GMafmPf.png

This was way before China tariffs were applied.

Wonder if part of it is tribal, had read while back he was from a Palestinian family and MAGA was from a Jewish family. Puting on somewhat collectivist 'Mexican Judge' bias hat on for a moment.

[Swordsmyth]

This is way before China tariffs.

Wonder if part of it is tribal, him being from a Palestinian family and Trump being from a Jewish family.
Trump promised tariffs all along and called for them for many years before he ran:

https://twitter.com/PolishPatriotTM/status/1126829681108451328

1126829681108451328

But other theories about Amash's motives may be true or it may be a combination of multiple motives that caused him to catch TDS.

[UWDude]

This was way before China tariffs were applied.

Wonder if part of it is tribal, had read while back he was from a Palestinian family and MAGA was from a Jewish family. Puting on somewhat collectivist 'Mexican Judge' bias hat on for a moment.

Maybe he is just jar of mustard stupid, and believes all the russia collusion BS.

[Anti Globalist]

Amash is showing how much of a beta male he is with his recent moves.

[shakey1]

Still, surprised that JA would do this... certainly there are bigger fish.

[Cleaner44]

Why is it so hard to fathom that he put principles over politics?

Because Amash is a politician and after this he will be less effective.

When Ron Paul would take a stance, he showed the public the constitutional position of whatever bill was being proposed. Amash isn't doing anything close to that right now. He is just sharing his opinion that Trump has violated the public trust and thus should be impeached. With that as a criteria, nearly every politician should be impeached. This leaves me wondering why he didn't call for the impeachment of Obama from 2010-2016. Where were his principles on this matter back then?

I find Rand Paul to be principled and more effective.

[angelatc]

Because Amash is a politician and after this he will be less effective.

When Ron Paul would take a stance, he showed the public the constitutional position of whatever bill was being proposed. Amash isn't doing anything close to that right now. He is just sharing his opinion that Trump has violated the public trust and thus should be impeached. With that as a criteria, nearly every politician should be impeached. This leaves me wondering why he didn't call for the impeachment of Obama from 2010-2016. Where were his principles on this matter back then?

I find Rand Paul to be principled and more effective.

I am not interested in playing ¿Quién es más macholibertarian? or whataboutObamaisms.

Amash's position is absolutely the constitutional position. He succinctly believes that Trumps actions meet the legal definition of obstruction and as such, Congress has a duty.

We may believe that Trump acted passively through the whole fiasco and would never intentionally try to impede the investigators, but Amash has reached a different conclusion.

But just for a moment, let us entertain the idea that perhaps this is indeed a 100 percent political move. So what? Are we seriously upset that small-government-minded Amash is besmirching the good name of Donald fucking Trump?

[Cap]

I am not interested in playing ¿Quién es más macholibertarian? or whataboutObamaisms.

Amash's position is absolutely the constitutional position. He succinctly believes that Trumps actions meet the legal definition of obstruction and as such, Congress has a duty.

We may believe that Trump acted passively through the whole fiasco and would never intentionally try to impede the investigators, but Amash has reached a different conclusion.

But just for a moment, let us entertain the idea that perhaps this is indeed a 100 percent political move. So what? Are we seriously upset that small-government-minded Amash is besmirching the good name of Donald $#@!ing Trump? That's going to tighten some sphincters.

[UWDude]

Are we seriously upset that small-government-minded Amash is besmirching the good name of Donald $#@!ing Trump?
Amash is participating in a coup. It's more than just besmirching the name of trump.

Anybody pushing the Russian collusion narrative is really really stupid, or a traitor.

for his sake, I am going to just assume Amash is plum stupid, because if he knows there is no collusion, but still pushes the narrative, like he has, then he can hang with the rest.

[nikcers]

But just for a moment, let us entertain the idea that perhaps this is indeed a 100 percent political move. So what? Are we seriously upset that small-government-minded Amash is besmirching the good name of Donald $#@!ing Trump?

This is how Rand was treated when he voted against Trumps national emergency I don't know why people are suprised JA is treated this way. Whether you agree with either of them on principle its a sign that TDS works on liberty lovers too

[angelatc]

Amash is participating in a coup. It's more than just besmirching the name of trump.

Anybody pushing the Russian collusion narrative is really really stupid, or a traitor.



I know you can't see it, but this....this.....this.... statement. Irony.

Just, wow.

Please point me to the evidence that Amash ever said he believed Trump colluded with Russia.

[angelatc]

This is how Rand was treated when he voted against Trumps national emergency I don't know why people are suprised JA is treated this way. Whether you agree with either of them on principle its a sign that TDS works on liberty lovers too

And that is what makes politicians successful. They know full well that facts will never win an emotional argument. They feed off making us alternate between cheering and sobbing.

[UWDude]

Please point me to the evidence that Amash ever said he believed Trump colluded with Russia.

what, you have swordsmyth on block or something?

He just posted multiple Amash tweets where Amash was berating trump for the way he behaved with Putin, insinuating Trump was controlled by Russia.

And I am quite sure it was in direct response to you asking him the exact same question you just asked me. (and i dont recall you giving any explanation for amash's russian collusion delusion tweets either when swordsmyth posted them... ...still trying to come up with the perfect "callng trump an agent of Putin is just Amash being principled!" id advise not trying. it wont work).

So either you put smyrh on ignore after you asked the question, or you are just choosing to ignore Amash has been on the collusion train from day one.

and now Amash is calling for impeachment, for "betraying the public trust" by not cooperating fully enough with the coup.

[UWDude]

This is how Rand was treated when he voted against Trumps national emergency I don't know why people are suprised JA is treated this way. Whether you agree with either of them on principle its a sign that TDS works on liberty lovers too

wrong. I for one respected Rands vote.

[nikcers]

wrong. I for one respected Rands vote.

yeah but if you saw the reaction on reddit on twitter it was not very nice

[UWDude]

yeah but if you saw the reaction on reddit on twitter it was not very nice

i did see the reaction on reddit. Rand still had many defenders, even though the_donald has had tons of purges that kicked out many rand types (because of foreign policy).

[nikcers]

i did see the reaction on reddit. Rand still had many defenders, even though the_donald has had tons of purges that kicked out many rand types (because of foreign policy).

They are just echo chambers that spin bizarre talking points. The one on twitter was literally Rand Paul is the reason why there is no southern border wall and that he needs to stop blocking the president.

[Cleaner44]

I am not interested in playing ¿Quién es más macholibertarian? or whataboutObamaisms.

Amash's position is absolutely the constitutional position. He succinctly believes that Trumps actions meet the legal definition of obstruction and as such, Congress has a duty.

We may believe that Trump acted passively through the whole fiasco and would never intentionally try to impede the investigators, but Amash has reached a different conclusion.

But just for a moment, let us entertain the idea that perhaps this is indeed a 100 percent political move. So what? Are we seriously upset that small-government-minded Amash is besmirching the good name of Donald $#@!ing Trump?

I can't speak for we but for myself and I can't get upset about any besmirching the good name of Donald Trump because he has never had a good name to me. I always found him to be a big NY blowhard and didn't appreciate him besmirching the good name of Ron Paul.

This is very simple to me. Trump is NOT going to be impeached. Aligning oneself politically with Maxine Waters is beyond stupid. Standing against a president that is slashing regulations and reducing government interference in markets doesn't win many allies in Republican circles.

I just think the approach of Rand Paul makes more sense. Trump is a guy that is willing to listen to points of view ranging from John Bolton to Rand Paul. It seems smarter to me to stay on good terms with Trump and attempt to influence him in a more liberty direction. Its ok if we disagree.

[ARealConservative]

Rand Paul is the convenient libertarian, he turns that ideology on and off as it suits him. Regardless, Amash is more of a constitutionalist that a libertarian so it is consistent with his MO to call for impeachment when he think a president has committed high crime. I don't agree with him in this instance, just wish he would up his threshold to bigger crimes like starting unauthorized wars.

I wish this was true. he is essentially agreeing with Comey that the FBI is an independent arm - which is a complete fabrication and totally at odds with the constitution

[ARealConservative]

Amash's position is absolutely the constitutional position. He succinctly believes that Trumps actions meet the legal definition of obstruction and as such, Congress has a duty.

yes - a living and breathing constitution. Apparently the DOJ is now the 4th equal branch independent of POTUS.

[Swordsmyth]

I am not interested in playing ¿Quién es más macholibertarian? or whataboutObamaisms.

Amash's position is absolutely the constitutional position. He succinctly believes that Trumps actions meet the legal definition of obstruction and as such, Congress has a duty.

We may believe that Trump acted passively through the whole fiasco and would never intentionally try to impede the investigators, but Amash has reached a different conclusion.

But just for a moment, let us entertain the idea that perhaps this is indeed a 100 percent political move. So what? Are we seriously upset that small-government-minded Amash is besmirching the good name of Donald $#@!ing Trump?
Amash's position is NOT EVEN CLOSE to Constitutional and I don't believe he believes it, he is jumping on the MSM/Demoncrat witch Hunt and endorsing treason for perceived political (and possibly personal) gain and we should be VERY upset about that.

[Swordsmyth]

I know you can't see it, but this....this.....this.... statement. Irony.

Just, wow.

Please point me to the evidence that Amash ever said he believed Trump colluded with Russia.
I gave it to you but apparently you reacted like this:

:seenoevil::hearnoevil:

[Cleaner44]

And that is what makes politicians successful. They know full well that facts will never win an emotional argument. They feed off making us alternate between cheering and sobbing.

This is 100% true. The population doesn't care about the constitution or the national debt. Facts and math don't matter as much as emotions.

I see the left as more emotion driven than the right, but not by a whole lot.

This also means that the principles that Amash is supposedly standing for won't matter as much as the emotional discord he is causing. The reality is that those of us here that care about the constitution as a very small minority compared to the masses of voters... and always will be. Learning that over the last 12 years is what causes me to say that Amash is being stupid.

[Swordsmyth]

This is 100% true. The population doesn't care about the constitution or the national debt. Facts and math don't matter as much as emotions.

I see the left as more emotion driven than the right, but not by a whole lot.

This also means that the principles that Amash is supposedly standing for won't matter as much as the emotional discord he is causing. The reality is that those of us here that care about the constitution as a very small minority compared to the masses of voters... and always will be. Learning that over the last 12 years is what causes me to say that Amash is being stupid.
And Amash is making an emotional argument against Trump NOT a Constitutional one.

He is WRONG.

[r3volution 3.0]

Rand's strategy of cozying up to Trump is stupid. It doesn't influence Trump, or win over his supporters; it just weakens the liberty movement.

Actually impeaching Trump would also be stupid; it would only martyrize Trump and strengthen his movement.

That said, since Trump obviously isn't going to be impeached, calling for it (as Amash did) is probably a good idea.

Libertarians must start recreating some distance between themselves and Trump; Amash is doing this, Rand isn't.


Something I have observed over the years is that Libertarianism is pretty ironic in true practice. While preaching individualism and liberty, anyone who deviates from 100% rank and file lock step with the doctrine principles is stoned and persecuted as not worthy, even to the point of wanting excommunication from the public square. While the principles are sound, the true example in practice is hypocritical and anti-individualism. It's just like the Constitutional party claiming they "support Constitutional freedom of religion" just as long as it is a "recognized form of Christianity".

There's no hypocrisy in that. How big the tent should be as a practical matter is debatable (balancing the risk of isolation v. the risk of dilution), but there is nothing violative of any libertarian principle in calling out non-libertarians as such, criticizing them, or in excluding them from an organization, meeting, etc.


I am not interested in playing ¿Quién es más macholibertarian? or whataboutObamaisms.

Amash's position is absolutely the constitutional position. He succinctly believes that Trumps actions meet the legal definition of obstruction and as such, Congress has a duty.

We may believe that Trump acted passively through the whole fiasco and would never intentionally try to impede the investigators, but Amash has reached a different conclusion.

But just for a moment, let us entertain the idea that perhaps this is indeed a 100 percent political move. So what? Are we seriously upset that small-government-minded Amash is besmirching the good name of Donald fucking Trump?

Exactly

This is all a political game; the only sensible position for us is to hope that our political enemies lose.

I give exactly zero shits about the legalities of impeachment, the Russia investigation, etc.

...nor do 99.99% of Trumpers.

[ATruepatriot]

There's no hypocrisy in that. How big the tent should be as a practical matter is debatable (balancing the risk of isolation v. the risk of dilution), but there is nothing violative of any libertarian principle in calling out non-libertarians as such, criticizing them, or in excluding them from an organization, meeting, etc.

Sure it is... It's hypocritical radical extremism, and radical all or nothing extremism is what destroys even the most righteous of ideology in everything. Ironic that someone who is hell bent on independent liberty creed for each individual would denounce someone else for exercising that very same independent individualism of creed because it differs from their own.

"I support you being an individual to think as you like, just as long as you think 100% just like me..."

By example It's the very definition of hypocrisy...

[PursuePeace]

This is very simple to me. Trump is NOT going to be impeached. Aligning oneself politically with Maxine Waters is beyond stupid. Standing against a president that is slashing regulations and reducing government interference in markets doesn't win many allies in Republican circles.

I just think the approach of Rand Paul makes more sense. Trump is a guy that is willing to listen to points of view ranging from John Bolton to Rand Paul. It seems smarter to me to stay on good terms with Trump and attempt to influence him in a more liberty direction. Its ok if we disagree.

I agree.

[r3volution 3.0]

Sure it is... It's hypocritical radical extremism, and radical all or nothing extremism is what destroys even the most righteous of ideology in everything. Ironic that someone who is hell bent on independent liberty creed for each individual would denounce someone else for exercising that very same independent individualism of creed because it differs from their own.

"I support you being an individual to think as you like, just as long as you think 100% just like me..."

By example It's the very definition of hypocrisy...

I believe X, Bob believes Y.

Bob and I have different goals.

I tell Bob this.

This is hypocritical...?

[ATruepatriot]

I believe X, Bob believes Y.

Bob and I have different goals.

I tell Bob this.

This is hypocritical...?

You know that is not at all what you presented. I'm done for the day, off to bed.

[r3volution 3.0]

You know that is not at all what you presented. I'm done for the day, off to bed.

I said:


there is nothing violative of any libertarian principle in calling out non-libertarians as such, criticizing them, or in excluding them from an organization, meeting, etc.

So, I'm a libertarian, Bob isn't, I tell him so, and don't invite him to the treehouse.

...where's the hypocrisy?

There's no principle of libertarianism mandating that you hang out with and assist your enemies.

[enhanced_deficit]

Heaven forbid, if Right Constitutional purists plus Left grudge score settlers succeeded to impeach MAGA, that would not only bring to power Pence ( who is way too Christian and Biblical minded for modern liberal socialism leaning diverse America) but would also cause irreparable harm to rising GOP-neocon wing sinking top donors massive investment (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?535024-Does-follow-the-money-apply-to-GOP-MAGA-wing&) in MAGA. Not only Iran war, various other globalist interventionist projects as well as domestic gov spending could also see some slow down. All progress made on DACA deal with Pelosi/Schumer or with NK, LGBT civil rights would also go to waste.

[Swordsmyth]

Heaven forbid, if Right Constitutional purists plus Left grudge score settlers succeeded to impeach MAGA, that would not only bring to power Pence ( who is way too Christian and Biblical minded for modern liberal socialism leaning diverse America) but would also cause irreparable harm to rising GOP-neocon wing sinking top donors massive investment (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?535024-Does-follow-the-money-apply-to-GOP-MAGA-wing&) in MAGA. Not only Iran war, various other globalist interventionist projects as well as domestic gov spending could also see some slow down. All progress made on DACA deal with Pelosi/Schumer or with NK, LGBT civil rights would also go to waste.
Pence would be a windfall to the Neocons.

[enhanced_deficit]

Pence would be a windfall to the Neocons.

Are you implying MAGA did not surround himself with the best?

Your comment suggests he surrounded himself with neocons swamp, why would a self-funded America-Firster do that?


Sometimes it seems as if even MAGA's supporters don't believe in his judgments. Disparaging Bolton, Pompeo was one thing but now you seem to be attcaking even his VP pick who is a heartbeat away from becoming President. If like Coulter, GOA leaders now you have started seeing MAGA as a 'scam' also, at least say it openly instead of such attacks on his top picks.

[Swordsmyth]

Are you implying MAGA did not surrounde himself with the best?

Your comment suggests he surrounded himself with neocons swamp, why would a self-funded America-Firster do that?


Sometimes it seems as if even MAGA's supporters don't believe in his judgments. Disparaging Bolton, Pompeo was one thing but now you seem to be attcaking even his VP pick who is a heartbeat away from becoming President.
Trump had to make deals to get in office and he has to make deals to stay in office, considering the state of American politics it is amazing how anti-swamp and anti-Neocon he has been able to be.

[enhanced_deficit]

Trump had to make deals to get in office and he has to make deals to stay in office, considering the state of American politics it is amazing how anti-swamp and anti-Neocon he has been able to be.

He appointed Bolton and Pompeo ( and Iraq war architect Abrams, neocon Jeffrey Epstein deal linked Alex Acosta etc) years after getting in office, are you implying there was some secret deal with Swamp for him to gradually appoint neocons so his anti-globalist supportesr do not feel instantly fooled after election?

[Swordsmyth]

He appointed Bolton and Pompeo ( and Iraq war architect Abrams, neocon Jeffrey Epstein deal linked Alex Acosta etc) years after getting in office, are you implying there was some secret deal with Swamp for him to gradually appoint neocons so his anti-globalist supportesr do not feel instantly fooled after election?
He has to make deals to stay in office, I already said that, Impeachment has been hanging over his head like the sword of Damocles since before his inauguration and the Neocons could decide to get on board at any time, the fact that he has avoided starting any new shooting wars and stayed unimpeached is a testament to his mastery of politics and deal making.

Hopefully he will be able to thumb his nose at the Neocons much more after the tables have been turned and the treasonous coup plotters have been tried and convicted.

[UWDude]

He appointed Bolton and Pompeo ( and Iraq war architect Abrams, neocon Jeffrey Epstein deal linked Alex Acosta etc) years after getting in office, are you implying there was some secret deal with Swamp for him to gradually appoint neocons so his anti-globalist supportesr do not feel instantly fooled after election?

What does this have to do with Russian collusion?

I'll not have this hoax be foisted, in any way on the president of the United States, especially Donald Trump.

Maybe any other president, but this guy is clearly different.

And almost all his haters are on the wrong side.

Now, I can understand the hate. I get it. For some, the Palestinian conflict burns brightly in that black raged flame of war.

But we don't want these conflicts brought home.

I get it. America deserves EVERYTHING it's got coming to it.

But I'm not gonna have Russia framed for it, in any way.

In fact, I am pretty sure what is coming is because of this hoax.

The US Government did this to itself, and for that, the US Government should pay.
And history should show that none other than the United States brought itself down.

It always was the greatest weakness of any vote-based society, be it democracy, or republic.

The inevitable dialectic.

The rise of the true fascists.

And the counter revolution.