43 percent say socialism is a "good thing" for America

[Anti Federalist]

Not surprising.

Idiot kids brought up in socialistic, gynocratic institutions, more than half of all household receiving some form of socialist government cheese, and tens of millions of migrant invaders still doe-eyed over the failed socialist shitholes they just ran away from, and I'm, quite frankly, suprised that number isn't higher.

Stick a fork in this place...it's done.

Of the remnant, separate now, or die.



Four in 10 Americans Embrace Some Form of Socialism

https://news.gallup.com/poll/257639/four-americans-embrace-form-socialism.aspx

43% of Americans say socialism would be a good thing for the country
51% believe socialism would be a bad thing for the country
Americans split on viewing economy as free market or government controlled

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Americans today are more closely divided than they were earlier in the last century when asked whether some form of socialism would be a good or bad thing for the country. While 51% of U.S. adults say socialism would be a bad thing for the country, 43% believe it would be a good thing. Those results contrast with a 1942 Roper/Fortune survey that found 40% describing socialism as a bad thing, 25% a good thing and 34% not having an opinion.

More Americans Now See Socialism as a Good Thing for the Country
Would some form of socialism be a good thing or a bad thing for the country as a whole?
1942 2019 Change
Good thing 25 43 +18
Bad thing 40 51 +11
No opinion 34 6 -28
Net "good thing" -15 -8 +7
Note: 1942 data gathered by Roper Center for Public Opinion Research

The Roper/Fortune survey is one of the oldest trend questions measuring attitudes on socialism in the U.S. Gallup's update of the question in an April 17-30 survey finds Americans more likely to have an opinion on the matter now, as well as a smaller gap in the percentage calling socialism a bad thing vs. a good thing.

Previous Gallup research shows that Americans' definition of socialism has changed over the years, with nearly one in four now associating the concept with social equality and 17% associating it with the more classical definition of having some degree of government control over the means of production. A majority of Democrats have said they view socialism positively in Gallup polling since 2010, including 57% in the most recent measure in 2018.

[Swordsmyth]

https://twitter.com/thecjpearson/status/1128399475209318401

1128399475209318401

[Swordsmyth]

Don't let propaganda polls get you down, they need to be taken with a whole sack of salt.

There are far too many of them though and we need to separate or we will end up killing eachother.

[DamianTV]

Last time they tried it, it failed because "it wasnt real socialism". And it failed the time before that, and the time before that and the time before that! Something something history repeats itself? But that would be redundant now wouldnt it? Yay socialism! The real version this time, not that fake phoney polluted version they had last time...

[ATruepatriot]

https://live.staticflickr.com/7920/47519795741_1f0cf10b91.jpg

[PAF]

https://live.staticflickr.com/7920/47519795741_1f0cf10b91.jpg


Good graphic.
Swordsmyth - take a good look at that. Now try to put the pieces of the puzzle together to see why your (and trumps) statist restrictionist philosophy will absolutely worsen things.


Here is another for you:

6454

[Superfluous Man]

And 2/3 of the other 57% also support socialism but just refuse to admit that's what they support.

[ATruepatriot]

Good graphic.
Swordsmyth - take a good look at that. Now try to put the pieces of the puzzle together to see why your (and trumps) statist restrictionist philosophy will absolutely worsen things.


You obviously support Communism as the better option then?

[ATruepatriot]

And 2/3 of the other 57% also support socialism but just refuse to admit that's what they support.

Communism is the better option then?

[PAF]

You obviously support Communism as the better option then?

LOL NO

What you, SwordShill and a few others blindly support, and do not fully understand it and why, is communism. You guys are the commies but try so fervently to turn it back on us in order to further the statist goal.

I am a Free Market guy who endorses Contract Rights, Natural Law, and of course my signature.

[ATruepatriot]

LOL NO

What you, SwordShill and a few others blindly support, and do not fully understand it and why, is communism. You guys are the commies but try so fervently to turn it back on us in order to further the statist goal.

I am a Free Market guy who endorses Contract Rights, Natural Law, and of course my signature.

Well in a perfect world I believe in the very same. But we are not in a perfect world and only have two options to choose from right now at this point in time. An imperfect Republic or Communism, choose one. Because reality dictates 5 purist good old boys in an elite club of purism is not enough influence to produce a third option. It's not even enough to keep a website alive if you cleanse it of all the impure and imperfect.

[Superfluous Man]

Communism is the better option then?

To be totally honest, I don't even get the difference between those. But no. I don't get why you asked me that either. Did I say something implying communism was better than socialism?

[PAF]

Well in a perfect world I believe in the very same. But we are not in a perfect world and only have two options to choose from right now at this point in time. An imperfect Republic or Communism, choose one. Because reality dictates 5 purist good old boys in an elite club of purism is not enough influence to produce a third option. It's not even enough to keep a website alive if you cleanse it of all the impure and imperfect.

Perfect world or not, it is most important to stay principled, and not bow to communist agendas. My way preserves what is left of this "republic" while supporting/endorsing individualism and freedom. Swordy's way supports more government statism (communist alert!), no matter how he "spins" his rhetoric.

[Anti Globalist]

Thats what happens when you have kids that get taught in government institutions. Granted I was taught in those places as well, but at least I woke up to the truth a few years back. These kids on the other hand I can't say the same. Some of them might be able to wake up but the majority won't.

[ATruepatriot]

To be totally honest, I don't even get the difference between those. But no. I don't get why you asked me that either. Did I say something implying communism was better than socialism?

There is no difference between the two. Socialism is just a pre-tune up to make a Communist engine run good. I ask because you obviously hate our imperfect Republic and seem to rather have socialism/communism as a more advantageous environment to advance liberty.

[Superfluous Man]

There is no difference between the two. Socialism is just a pre-tune up to make a Communist engine run good. I ask because you obviously hate our imperfect Republic and seem to rather have socialism/communism as a more advantageous environment to advance liberty.

Can you quote me saying something that suggested I hated our imperfect Republic or preferred socialism/communism?

Would you make this same charge against Ron Paul?

[ATruepatriot]

Perfect world or not, it is most important to stay principled, and not bow to communist agendas. My way preserves what is left of this "republic" while supporting/endorsing individualism and freedom. Swordy's way supports more government statism (communist alert!), no matter how he "spins" his rhetoric.

Since you always bring this back to the open/closed border "more statism" argument with Swordy let's get real then. What is your skin in the game? Because over the years I have seen very little true compassion and humanity for others in this movement. There is always an underlying goal of self over others as a main priority. How are open borders going to promote a richer environment for liberty and freedom to fruit in the future?

Educate me on all the realistic cause and effect advantages that are truly going to make us freer...

Now keep in mind I AM NOT Swordy and deserve the very respect as an individual you claim to stand on principle for.

[PAF]

Since you always bring this back to the open/closed border "more statism" argument with Swordy let's get real then. What is your skin in the game? Because over the years I have seen very little true compassion and humanity for others in this movement. There is always an underlying goal of self over others as a main priority. How are open borders going to promote a richer environment for liberty and freedom to fruit in the future?

Educate me on all the realistic cause and effect advantages that are truly going to make us freer...

Now keep in mind I AM NOT Swordy and deserve the very respect as an individual you claim to stand on principle for.


I do not want to hand out MY hard-earned money for incentives, or welfare - not to foreigners OR multi-generational Section 8 folks who do not want to work.

I do not want to travel another 20 miles out my way, in gas and time, to look for an entry/exit point only to be stopped, questioned or searched by government goons. Or show my "papers". Or have my money confiscated just because I am close to the border and this "government" only permits carrying only up to $10,000 before it IS confiscated.

I do not want foreigners "registered" or "documented", because I do not want them to have loophole access to MY money when they appear at a local government office. I would MUCH rather have the lady at the counter say "I am sorry, you have no ID so you are not eligible to receive this or that benefit".

I do not want businesses to have to be forced to pay government minimum wage in lieu of "private contract rights". It will cause businesses to be deemed criminals if they get caught and either fined or fold up, it will provide more money to the Fed.gov by way of more taxation, and down the road IF businesses are still operating cause prices to rise. It will also cause businesses to hire less people because that is what minimum wage does.

I do not want a Constitution Free Zone, at the border, by the sea, N, S, E or W. My rights belong to me - not you, not the government, not DHS, not ICE.

Freedom is selfish, but it is also compassionate - IF one is willing and able to be productive and work.

[enhanced_deficit]

Many, especially those who identify with two major parties .. especially Democrats, support socialism to some extent but lately support for it is getting bit out of hand.
Socialist Soviet Union is no more, doesn't that teach MSM supported polticians anything?


Socialist Bernie Sanders supporters vow to support Trump if Bernie isn’t the nominee (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?533827-Sanders-supporters-vow-to-support-Trump-if-Bernie-isn’t-the-nominee&)

https://cmgpbppostonpolitics.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/daily-news-trump-tax.jpghttp://kerbcraft.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/donald-trump-health-care-quote-outstanding-donald-trump-health-care-quote-extraordinary-david-brooks-quote-of-donald-trump-health-care-quote-150x150.jpg

Trump Care
Trump promises 'great healthcare' after 2020 race
Tuesday, April 02, 2019
U.S. President Donald Trump said on Monday he was willing to wait until after the 2020 presidential election to get Congress to vote on a new healthcare plan, giving Republicans time to develop a proposal to replace Obamacare.
https://www.reuters.com/video/2019/04/02/trump-promises-great-healthcare-after-20?videoId=533073397

Trump to fund food stamps despite government shutdown
January 09, 2019
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/trump-to-fund-food-stamps-despite-government-shutdown
(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?533876-Pentagon-sending-100s-of-cooks-to-border-to-cook-food-for-migrants&)
Pentagon sending 100s of cooks to border to cook food for migrants (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?533876-Pentagon-sending-100s-of-cooks-to-border-to-cook-food-for-migrants&)

[Ender]

Since you always bring this back to the open/closed border "more statism" argument with Swordy let's get real then. What is your skin in the game? Because over the years I have seen very little true compassion and humanity for others in this movement. There is always an underlying goal of self over others as a main priority. How are open borders going to promote a richer environment for liberty and freedom to fruit in the future?

Educate me on all the realistic cause and effect advantages that are truly going to make us freer...

Now keep in mind I AM NOT Swordy and deserve the very respect as an individual you claim to stand on principle for.

No, that would be the forum statists that always bring things back to the border issue.

Most of us "free market/free trade/natural rights advocates stand with Ron Paul:

No entitlements.
A reasonable pathway to citizenship
No REAL ID
Reasonable protection at the border- yes- but do not turn it into a war zone.

[ATruepatriot]

Can you quote me saying something that suggested I hated our imperfect Republic or preferred socialism/communism?

Would you make this same charge against Ron Paul?

You support open borders and in his way facilitate the Communist agenda that has been pushed since the mid 60s, since before many here were born, and since before Ron Paul even became a notable figure. While Ron Paul does believe it is a problem himself and his cure is the more practical common sense cure, the liberal communists are never going to let it happen. You base your argument on a false premise that all influences, variables, and parameters are static and never change. It's unrealistic and they have indeed changed. And since Ron's plan will never happen it changes the true cause and effect of what is happening and requires a different approach. Honestly I wish it were different but in reality it is not. And we can thank the dishonest communists who do not have any integrity, accountability, self responsibility, or sense of real cause and effect. In the mean time facilitating the communist wishes is supporting the communist agenda, and unlike ourselves, they really don't give a damned about this country at all, let alone ever promoting or allowing a free state as we would like.

[Ender]

I do not want to hand out MY hard-earned money for incentives, or welfare - not to foreigners OR multi-generational Section 8 folks who do not want to work.

I do not want to travel another 20 miles out my way, in gas and time, to look for an entry/exit point only to be stopped, questioned or searched by government goons. Or show my "papers". Or have my money confiscated just because I am close to the border and this "government" only permits carrying only up to $10,000 before it IS confiscated.

I do not want foreigners "registered" or "documented", because I do not want them to have loophole access to MY money when they appear at a local government office. I would MUCH rather have the lady at the counter say "I am sorry, you have no ID so you are not eligible to receive this or that benefit".

I do not want businesses to have to be forced to pay government minimum wage in lieu of "private contract rights". It will cause businesses to be deemed criminals if they get caught and either fined or fold up, it will provide more money to the Fed.gov by way of more taxation, and down the road IF businesses are still operating cause prices to rise. It will also cause businesses to hire less people because that is what minimum wage does.

I do not want a Constitution Free Zone, at the border, by the sea, N, S, E or W. My rights belong to me - not you, not the government, not DHS, not ICE.

Freedom is selfish, but it is also compassionate - IF one is willing and able to be productive and work.

Pretty much.

[oyarde]

No poll needed . Easy math . Six in ten Americans work . Half of those get more tax back than they paid . Gore , Kerry , Obama (twice) and Clinton basically got half the votes by representing the modern communist type slot on the ballot in the past twenty years. What does that tell you ?

[Ender]

You support open borders and in his way facilitate the Communist agenda that has been pushed since the mid 60s, since before many here were born, and since before Ron Paul even became a notable figure. While Ron Paul does believe it is a problem himself and his cure is the more practical common sense cure, the liberal communists are never going to let it happen. You base your argument on a false premise that all influences, variables, and parameters are static and never change. It's unrealistic and they have indeed changed. And since Ron's plan will never happen it changes the true cause and effect of what is happening and requires a different approach. Honestly I wish it were different but in reality it is not. And we can thank the dishonest communists who do not have any integrity, accountability, self responsibility, or sense of real cause and effect. In the mean time facilitating the communist wishes is supporting the communist agenda, and unlike ourselves, they really don't give a damned about this country at all, let alone ever promoting or allowing a free state as we would like.

Same ol' argument.

Ron Paul's POV is unrealistic so let's have more Big Gov to keep us safe from more Big Gov.

Go figure.

[Superfluous Man]

You support open borders and in his way facilitate the Communist agenda that has been pushed since the mid 60s

I support the same constitutional federal immigration policy that the founders of this republic did when the Constitution was ratified, and that Ron Paul does today. How does that make me a hater of the republic? Federal immigration restriction, on the other hand, was a later innovation of the Progressive era that was only deemed constitutional by way of a living document approach to the Constitution.


While Ron Paul does believe it is a problem himself and his cure is the more practical common sense cure, the liberal communists are never going to let it happen.

But I support the very same immigration policies that Ron Paul himself does (no wall, no requirements of employers to aid in immigration law enforcement, no requirement to show a passport to enter the country, no entitlements, no guarantee of citizenship just by being born here). So I'm not sure what you're talking about by bringing him into it. His cure is the same cure I've been promoting all this time. Do you also say he hates the republic?


You base your argument on a false premise that all influences, variables, and parameters are static and never change.

I'm not sure what argument of mine you're referring to. Can you please quote me making whatever this argument is and point out whatever in it led you to think I had that false premise ignoring those things?

[ATruepatriot]

No, that would be the forum statists that always bring things back to the border issue.

Most of us "free market/free trade/natural rights advocates stand with Ron Paul:

No entitlements.
A reasonable pathway to citizenship
No REAL ID
Reasonable protection at the border- yes- but do not turn it into a war zone.

Ron Paul is a Constitutionalist. What happened to this principle? I see a whole lot of selective application and even ignorance of the Constitution in this movement that I never saw when I became part of it. Where did this go in the list of principles?

[PAF]

You support open borders and in his way facilitate the Communist agenda that has been pushed since the mid 60s, since before many here were born, and since before Ron Paul even became a notable figure. While Ron Paul does believe it is a problem himself and his cure is the more practical common sense cure, the liberal communists are never going to let it happen. You base your argument on a false premise that all influences, variables, and parameters are static and never change. It's unrealistic and they have indeed changed. And since Ron's plan will never happen it changes the true cause and effect of what is happening and requires a different approach. Honestly I wish it were different but in reality it is not. And we can thank the dishonest communists who do not have any integrity, accountability, self responsibility, or sense of real cause and effect. In the mean time facilitating the communist wishes is supporting the communist agenda, and unlike ourselves, they really don't give a damned about this country at all, let alone ever promoting or allowing a free state as we would like.

The communist agenda/goal does not care one bit whether a border is open or closed. It is simply a mechanism to get people to rally for government action. All the communists want is businesses to be restricted from Private Property and Private Contract Rights, ensure a "Minimum Wage" else pay fines to the .gov, and ensure people are "documented" so that more (foreign AND domestic) will Fund the Fed. All while the Bill of Rights goes further down the tube.

It is working so tremendously well even Obama would be proud. The difference back when he was in office, Republicans did not fall for his buggy full of horse manure. With trump, they are.

[Superfluous Man]

Ron Paul is a Constitutionalist. What happened to this principle? I see a whole lot of selective application and even ignorance of the Constitution in this movement that I never saw when I became part of it. Where did this go in the list of principles?

And yet your entire point in this thread is to insist that we must depart from Ron Paul's strict constitutionalism with respect to immigration law. You seem to want it both ways.

[Ender]

Ron Paul is a Constitutionalist. What happened to this principle? I see a whole lot of selective application and even ignorance of the Constitution in this movement that I never saw when I became part of it. Where did this go in the list of principles?

What's with the "chasing your tail" comebacks? There is NOTHING in my post that goes against original principles of Liberty & Freedom.

And, I am quite educated on the Constitution- most here, who think they are, are not.

[PAF]

Ron Paul is a Constitutionalist. What happened to this principle? I see a whole lot of selective application and even ignorance of the Constitution in this movement that I never saw when I became part of it. Where did this go in the list of principles?

Ron Paul was a Congressman, the best there was, who tried to work "within the system" that we have (the CONstitution). After he left the House, he verbally stated that the "gloves are now off", and is trying to get people to understand freedom, liberty and fiscal responsibility. Not only here in America, but in Mexico and other places too.

I am sure that while Ron advocates the Constitution, there are many parts that he would disagree with when it comes down to it. He tried to work within the system, but it goes well beyond that.

[PierzStyx]

Not surprising.

Idiot kids brought up in socialistic, gynocratic institutions, more than half of all household receiving some form of socialist government cheese, and tens of millions of migrant invaders still doe-eyed over the failed socialist $#@!holes they just ran away from, and I'm, quite frankly, suprised that number isn't higher.

Stick a fork in this place...it's done.

Of the remnant, separate now, or die.



Four in 10 Americans Embrace Some Form of Socialism



Gotta love when a Socialist calls other Socialists idiots. It just demonstrates how blind Socialism makes you to reality, such as the fact that favoring any State institutional regulation of anything is Socialism. State regulation of borders is just as much Socialism as State regulation of healthcare.

Just ask Comrade Bernie:


During the 2016 presidential campaign, Sanders said an open-border policy was “a Koch brothers proposal."

“That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States,” he said. “It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation-state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation-state or in a country called the United States or U.K. or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/bernie-sanders-i-dont-support-open-borders

Oh, I can hear you now. Your form of Socialism is magical and special and totally legitimate unlike all the other forms of Socialism which are bad. Same bullshit all other Socialists spew. And the Socialist hate for each other is nothing new. Your National Socialism is no less Socialist than Comrade Bernie's Democratic Socialism. Your hatred for his (differing?) form of Socialism was understood and explained by Hayek almost 80 years ago in The Road to Serfdom:


The communists and [National Socialists] clashed more frequently with each other than with other parties simply because they competed for the same type of mind and reserved for each other the hatred of the heretic.

He even anticipated your fallacious arguments and justifications for your Socialism:


What is promised to us as the Road to Freedom is in fact the Highroad to Servitude. For it is not difficult to see what must be the consequences when democracy embarks upon a course of planning. The goal of the planning will be described by some such vague term as "the general welfare." There will be no real agreement as to the ends to be attained, and the effect of the people's agreeing that there must be central planning, without agreeing on the ends, will be rather as if a group of people were to commit themselves to take a journey together without agreeing where they want to go: with the result that they may all have to make a journey which most of them do not want at all.

The end product of your Socialism is the same as all others- Servitude and Serfdom. That you do not see it because you are all "doe-eyed" over your magical form of perfect Socialism prove snot just Hayek's point, but your own about how just how much people engage in slef-deception and fail to see the dangers of their own politics.

[ATruepatriot]

Same ol' argument.

Ron Paul's POV is unrealistic so let's have more Big Gov to keep us safe from more Big Gov.

Go figure.

Doesn't hold a candle to the big government the Communists have planned for us if allowed to follow through. Why is this reality so hard to see? Do I like big government or support it? Hell no... But this utopian bubble of no government and no restrictions is never going to happen, ever. Nice dream but very unrealistic, and in the meantime the Communist snowball is about to run us all over no mater what we believe or stand for. I hope at some point rational reality can come into play before we lose every and all opportunity to create this utopian state we want.

[Superfluous Man]

Do I like big government or support it? Hell no.

So you *don't* support having the government restrict immigration (a.k.a. big government)? I thought your whole point in this discussion was that you did.

[ATruepatriot]

Ron Paul was a Congressman, the best there was, who tried to work "within the system" that we have (the CONstitution). After he left the House, he verbally stated that the "gloves are now off", and is trying to get people to understand freedom, liberty and fiscal responsibility. Not only here in America, but in Mexico and other places too.

I am sure that while Ron advocates the Constitution, there are many parts that he would disagree with when it comes down to it. He tried to work within the system, but it goes well beyond that.

The Ron Paul I have been following since Reagan was always a strict Constitutionalist. He has always made it clear that good or bad it is the law of the land, and if we don't like it then there is a legal process to change it with no shortcuts allowed. But it stands until we get off our asses and formally change it as written in the Constitution. He was NEVER an anarchist nor has he EVER promoted anarchy.

[PAF]

The Ron Paul I have been following since Reagan was always a strict Constitutionalist. He has always made it clear that good or bad it is the law of the land, and if we don't like it then there is a legal process to change it with no shortcuts allowed. But it stands until we get off our asses and formally change it as written in the Constitution. He was NEVER an anarchist nor has he EVER promoted anarchy.

I also agree that the Constitution is the Law of the Land. I feel that we must teach it, understand it, and return to it. Only at that point can the people be better educated to know what needs to be changed - NOT by what Common Core and educators of today are proposing (communism/nationalism). It is simply a mechanism, unfortunately written by central planners.

Anarchist, libertarian, yadda yadda... I just consider myself and individual who values Natural Rights, Private Property and Private Contract Rights, and the NAP.

;-)

[PAF]

So you *don't* support having the government restrict immigration (a.k.a. big government)? I thought your whole point in this discussion was that you did.

That's what I thought too (that he is a restrictionist and does support growing government). In fact I think he made it perfectly clear.

[ATruepatriot]

So you *don't* support having the government restrict immigration (a.k.a. big government)? I thought your whole point in this discussion was that you did.

No I don't... But I am smart enough to know that we will never get "no government" as wanted in this utopian bubble. It will always be there and it's never going away. Knowing this there are only two choices in reality less now or much much more later. Am I the only one who noticed this difference of reality vs fantasy has already weakened and divided the Libertarian party? It was once a real third party threat to the major parties and it stepped on it's own toes with this difference of reality vs fantasy. It was a sad thing to see after all the efforts I personally made to help promote the Libertarian party. The inability to agree on anything became a detriment and self defeating. Maybe someday... but never in the environment we have right now. Even Ron Paul, Justin Amash, and Rand Paul were smart enough to have recognized this reality and had to run as Republicans. Did we somehow miss this reality?

[ATruepatriot]

That's what I thought too (that he is a restrictionist and does support growing government). In fact I think he made it perfectly clear.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?534750-43-percent-say-socialism-is-a-quot-good-thing-quot-for-America&p=6800504&viewfull=1#post6800504

[PAF]

No I don't... But I am smart enough to know that we will never get "no government" as wanted in this utopian bubble. It will always be there and it's never going away. Knowing this there are only two choices in reality less now or much much more later. Am I the only one who noticed this difference of reality vs fantasy has already weakened and divided the Libertarian party? It was once a real third party threat to the major parties and it stepped on it's own toes with this difference of reality vs fantasy. It was a sad thing to see after all the efforts I personally made to help promote the Libertarian party. The inability to agree on anything became a detriment and self defeating. Maybe someday... but never in the environment we have right now. Even Ron Paul, Justin Amash, and Rand Paul were smart enough to have recognized this reality and had to run as Republicans. Did we somehow miss this reality?

As I said before, Ron tried. Justin, Tom and Rand are still trying, but they hit road blocks at every turn. The root cause is the way kids are being taight and what the "news" outlets slant. People do not have time or care to think on their own. I can not tell you how many times I am told "politics does not interest me" so they vote with the flow.

Ron himself has said that it was an experiment of freedom. People are naturally sheep and never miss what they don't know. All we can do is activate, teach and try to pass down to others what true freedom is really all about. They will either feel it and embrace it, or not.

Meantime I am not about promoting tightening the noose which is this central government.

[Anti Federalist]

State regulation of borders is just as much Socialism as State regulation of healthcare.

If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

Yes or no?

[PAF]

If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

Yes or no?

Private property, or unused land that could be homesteaded?


Do you think the BLM/Fed should control unused land?

Do you think we should have Constitution Free zones?

Do you think companies should be considered criminals for not paying minimum wage in lieu of negotiate contracts between employer/worker?

Do you think we should "document" more people so that they are eligible for incentives/welfare, and pay into and fund the Fed.gov?

Do you think you and I should be "documented" as well in order to differentiate between them and us? If so, biometrics/blood sampling also since it is new wave tech?

Can you and I exchange screen names? I really like and agree with it.

[ATruepatriot]

No, that would be the forum statists that always bring things back to the border issue.

Most of us "free market/free trade/natural rights advocates stand with Ron Paul:

No entitlements.
A reasonable pathway to citizenship
No REAL ID
Reasonable protection at the border- yes- but do not turn it into a war zone.

I fully agree with all these principles Ender. Except that the border was a War Zone long before Trump was elected. It was beyond and past "reasonable protection" and out of hand for a long time needing extreme measures to counter this war zone. I am against what caused it too, the war on drugs, but if anyone thinks the WOD is going away they are fooling themselves. Unfortunately in the meantime an extreme situation requires extreme counter measures or our goose is cooked from the real results if we do not.

[PAF]

I fully agree with all these principles Ender. Except that the border was a War Zone long before Trump was elected. It was beyond and past "reasonable protection" and out of hand for a long time needing extreme measures to counter this war zone. I am against what caused it too, the war on drugs, but if anyone thinks the WOD is going away they are fooling themselves. Unfortunately in the meantime an extreme situation requires extreme counter measures or our goose is cooked from the real results if we do not.

War Zone? So the government DOES interfere and cause the problems.


I am not advocating anything here, just pointing this out:


6456


But that does not change the fact that this government is intent on:


6457

[ATruepatriot]

Private property, or unused land that could be homesteaded?


Do you think the BLM/Fed should control unused land?

Do you think we should have Constitution Free zones?

Do you think companies should be considered criminals for not paying minimum wage in lieu of negotiate contracts between employee/worker?

Do you think we should "document" more people so that they are eligible for incentives/welfare, and pay into and fund the Fed.gov?

Do you think you and I should be "documented" as well in order to differentiate between them and us? If so, biometrics/blood sampling also since it is new wave tech?

These are all different issues to be addressed totally separate. Why do you always lump them altogether as one all or none package?

[ATruepatriot]

War Zone? So the government DOES interfere and cause the problems.


I am not advocating anything here, just pointing this out:


6456


See that land that Mexico has possession of in Az and New Mexico? That should never have happened and could have been stopped and should have been stopped. U.S. citizens can no longer safely enjoy those parts of our own country anymore. I pay taxes in Az to have the right to use those lands and cannot safely do so.

[PAF]

These are all different issues to be addressed totally separate. Why do you always lump them altogether as one all or none package?

Because they ALL interact with each other. The solution that trump and many people here are advocating for leads to all of the above and more. It is the globalist agenda. It will be the unintended consequences, or as Ron Paul has said "good intentions lead to bad consequences". As I have said, communists do not give a rats ass if it is an actual wall, or not - they just want people documented and processed by whatever means will accomplish it.

[PAF]

See that land that Mexico has possession of in Az and New Mexico? That should never have happened and could have been stopped and should have been stopped. U.S. citizens can no longer safely enjoy those parts of our own country anymore. I pay taxes in Az to have the right to use those lands and cannot safely do so.

No worries. Government will save you. No, really, they have your best interest at heart LOL

Once more people are processed and pay into the Fed, along with bigger government, you can show your ID to the next government agent and go anywhere you'd like - as long as it's not restricted, or you don't have $10,000 in cash, and you don't mind being searched without a warrant, etc. etc., etc. ;-)

[ATruepatriot]

As I said before, Ron tried. Justin, Tom and Rand are still trying, but they hit road blocks at every turn. The root cause is the way kids are being taight and what the "news" outlets slant. People do not have time or care to think on their own. I can not tell you how many times I am told "politics does not interest me" so they vote with the flow.

Ron himself has said that it was an experiment of freedom. People are naturally sheep and never miss what they don't know. All we can do is activate, teach and try to pass down to others what true freedom is really all about. They will either feel it and embrace it, or not.

Meantime I am not about promoting tightening the noose which is this central government.

I absolutely agree with everything you say here. And have always backed the effort to make this difference. But I am also a realist and know that right now we have run out of time and buffer space to make any real changes anytime soon, not soon enough to stop what is coming at us in the immediate time frame. And once it comes what we would like to do is going to become a 1000 times harder to do if even at all after.

[ATruepatriot]

No worries. Government will save you. No, really, they have your best interest at heart LOL

Once more people are processed and pay into the Fed, along with bigger government, you can show your ID to the next government agent and go anywhere you'd like - as long as it's not restricted, or you don't have $10,000 in cash, and you don't mind being searched without a warrant, etc. etc., etc. ;-)

You are lumping it all together again.

[ATruepatriot]

Because they ALL interact with each other. The solution that trump and many people here are advocating for leads to all of the above and more. It is the globalist agenda. It will be the unintended consequences, or as Ron Paul has said "good intentions lead to bad consequences". As I have said, communists do not give a rats ass if it is an actual wall, or not - they just want people documented and processed by whatever means will accomplish it.

No they don't, If I believe in all but one then you have placed me in the impure category that implies that because of the one I then do not believe in all the others either. It is a dishonest "one size fits all" "all or none" tactic. I either have to believe in all of them or I don't believe in any of them in your eyes. Which is not at all true.

[ATruepatriot]

I also agree that the Constitution is the Law of the Land. I feel that we must teach it, understand it, and return to it. Only at that point can the people be better educated to know what needs to be changed - NOT by what Common Core and educators of today are proposing (communism/nationalism). It is simply a mechanism, unfortunately written by central planners.

Anarchist, libertarian, yadda yadda... I just consider myself and individual who values Natural Rights, Private Property and Private Contract Rights, and the NAP.

;-)

The Constitution sets National Boundaries and Borders. Just because we don't like it, it doesn't make it any less the law of the land. Until it's changed it's still Constitutional law whether we like it or not. THIS is the point I'm trying to make with reality in all this.

[Superfluous Man]

No I don't... But I am smart enough to know that we will never get "no government" as wanted in this utopian bubble.

OK. But if you're for government imposed immigration restriction, you're not just for a little government, you're for a massive police state. For the majority of this nation's history when people could freely move themselves across the nation's borders and were free to get jobs and hire employees without getting the government's permission, there was still a government, just not one as big as the kind you support.

[Ender]

Doesn't hold a candle to the big government the Communists have planned for us if allowed to follow through. Why is this reality so hard to see? Do I like big government or support it? Hell no... But this utopian bubble of no government and no restrictions is never going to happen, ever. Nice dream but very unrealistic, and in the meantime the Communist snowball is about to run us all over no mater what we believe or stand for. I hope at some point rational reality can come into play before we lose every and all opportunity to create this utopian state we want.

1st of all, you need to understand that the CONstitution was actually a Hamiltonian coup to install big government & have it run by the elites. And, it has worked beautifully. Most Americans live in worship of the CONstitution because they've been brainwashed in public schools with false history, economics, etc etc etc.

The Anti-Federalists were absolutely right & the original amendments were the only thing that finally drew the states in. Most states did not want a big central government telling them what to do. They'd had enough with the Brits. The coup started the demise of the early ideas of natural rights & freedom, with each state having it's own solidarity. The "Civil" War ended the last bit of States Rights.

What we have now is a "pretense" of freedom- the average guy doesn't even own his own land. Property taxes determine who the real owner is. And most all fed laws are even unconstitutional- that's how far down the road, the strangulation of any real liberty has gone.

All this talk of the evil socialists/communists taking over the country is a joke. The so-called "Land of the Free" disappeared a long time ago. And, the ignorance of the people is the prime thing that keeps us all enslaved.

[ATruepatriot]

OK. But if you're for government imposed immigration restriction, you're not just for a little government, you're for a massive police state. For the majority of this nation's history when people could freely move themselves across the nation's borders and were free to get jobs and hire employees without getting the government's permission, there was still a government, just not one as big as the kind you support.

I will respectfully reply in a bit, in an important project I need to concentrate on. :)

[Anti Federalist]

Private property, or unused land that could be homesteaded?


Do you think the BLM/Fed should control unused land?

Do you think we should have Constitution Free zones?

Do you think companies should be considered criminals for not paying minimum wage in lieu of negotiate contracts between employer/worker?

Do you think we should "document" more people so that they are eligible for incentives/welfare, and pay into and fund the Fed.gov?

Do you think you and I should be "documented" as well in order to differentiate between them and us? If so, biometrics/blood sampling also since it is new wave tech?

Can you and I exchange screen names? I really like and agree with it.

Don't answer a question with more questions.

If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

Yes or no?

[106459]

Gotta love when a Socialist calls other Socialists idiots. It just demonstrates how blind Socialism makes you to reality, such as the fact that favoring any State institutional regulation of anything is Socialism. State regulation of borders is just as much Socialism as State regulation of healthcare.


Wait - did you really, in practice, just say that everyone in the world is a socialist because they believe in individual rights and the requisite regulations that implies?

That is so intellectually dishonest. Do you really believe our world should be just one big country? We can just take anyone, from anywhere, and there's no problem? No cultural differences, no separate beliefs? There's no reason for the concept of nations, despite the fact they've existed for thousands of years, because our light bulb answer just happened to off, for us, right now, and we have it all figured out? How convenient.

[Superfluous Man]

Don't answer a question with more questions.

If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

Yes or no?

No. As long as participation, including funding, is voluntary.

[Anti Federalist]

No. As long as participation, including funding, is voluntary.

OK, so we've determined that a border and territory is a tangible thing, and now we're just arguing about the ways and means to defend it.

Thank you.

[Anti Federalist]

1st of all, you need to understand that the CONstitution was actually a Hamiltonian coup to install big government & have it run by the elites. And, it has worked beautifully. Most Americans live in worship of the CONstitution because they've been brainwashed in public schools with false history, economics, etc etc etc.

The Anti-Federalists were absolutely right & the original amendments were the only thing that finally drew the states in. Most states did not want a big central government telling them what to do. They'd had enough with the Brits. The coup started the demise of the early ideas of natural rights & freedom, with each state having it's own solidarity. The "Civil" War ended the last bit of States Rights.

What we have now is a "pretense" of freedom- the average guy doesn't even own his own land. Property taxes determine who the real owner is. And most all fed laws are even unconstitutional- that's how far down the road, the strangulation of any real liberty has gone.

All this talk of the evil socialists/communists taking over the country is a joke. The so-called "Land of the Free" disappeared a long time ago. And, the ignorance of the people is the prime thing that keeps us all enslaved.

This is 100 percent correct.

Important to remember is that the AoC were written up to provide one thing a small sovereign state had trouble providing: a unified defense against invasion.

That said, your further points are right on as well, and yes, I see the crushing irony of talking of whether socialism would be "good or bad" to implement in a nation that is, for all practical purposes, fully socialist as it stands.

What's concerning to me is that I suspect those 43 percent of people do not think socialism is good for the country, but rather, think that full blown Bolshevik/Jacobinite authoritarian collectivism would be a great thing to put in place, with the pogroms and genocides that come along with that.

These people want a Stalin-esque nightmare of GULAGS and killing fields, not fuzzy, feel good Swedish welfare statism.

[ATruepatriot]

1st of all, you need to understand that the CONstitution was actually a Hamiltonian coup to install big government & have it run by the elites. And, it has worked beautifully. Most Americans live in worship of the CONstitution because they've been brainwashed in public schools with false history, economics, etc etc etc.

The Anti-Federalists were absolutely right & the original amendments were the only thing that finally drew the states in. Most states did not want a big central government telling them what to do. They'd had enough with the Brits. The coup started the demise of the early ideas of natural rights & freedom, with each state having it's own solidarity. The "Civil" War ended the last bit of States Rights.

What we have now is a "pretense" of freedom- the average guy doesn't even own his own land. Property taxes determine who the real owner is. And most all fed laws are even unconstitutional- that's how far down the road, the strangulation of any real liberty has gone.

All this talk of the evil socialists/communists taking over the country is a joke. The so-called "Land of the Free" disappeared a long time ago. And, the ignorance of the people is the prime thing that keeps us all enslaved.

Trust me I do understand everything you share here. I understand it very well. The thing is the options are not the equal same/same. What's coming from the left is 100 times more oppressive than what we have now if allowed to succeed. And if you have a better option available that can succeed to prevent this reality in the next year I'm all ears.

[PAF]

Don't answer a question with more questions.

If an armed tank column and division of troops charged across the border to hold territory, is it socialism to call up the citizen militias to repel them?

Yes or no?

Without being specific, it is a trick question, one that statists in the mainstream news uses. You answer mine and I will answer yours:

Private property, or unused land that could be homesteaded :question:


This is a good response:


No. As long as participation, including funding, is voluntary.

[Anti Federalist]

This is a good response:

Glad you agree.


OK, so we've determined that a border and territory is a tangible thing, and now we're just arguing about the ways and means to defend it.

Thank you.

[oyarde]

OK. But if you're for government imposed immigration restriction, you're not just for a little government, you're for a massive police state. For the majority of this nation's history when people could freely move themselves across the nation's borders and were free to get jobs and hire employees without getting the government's permission, there was still a government, just not one as big as the kind you support.

Nor was there tax funded programs for them to sign up for and use which is what needs to be returned to but will not .

[Ender]

Trust me I do understand everything you share here. I understand it very well. The thing is the options are not the equal same/same. What's coming from the left is 100 times more oppressive than what we have now if allowed to succeed. And if you have a better option available that can succeed to prevent this reality in the next year I'm all ears.

There is no real right/left- just politicians chanting the right buzzwords to keep their constituents happy. The whole right/left thing is a sham to keep everyone's eye off what's really going on.

[Swordsmyth]

You will have a supermajority that favor huge government relatively quickly in any country with open borders, they will come for the prosperity and vote to share in it by force.

Our original uncontrolled immigration played a major part in getting us where we are and if we go back to it we will be a communist country in one generation.