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Swordsmyth
05-12-2019, 08:26 PM
I think the time is coming for an idea that is so old that it is new again: cutting the Federal government in half.
The idea is: cancel all Federal welfare-type programs, including all means-tested welfare programs (apparently there are over 150 of them), all healthcare-related programs including Medicare and Medicaid, all education-related, arts-related and housing-related programs, and anything else of this sort -- in short, most everything except for the military, national parks, and maybe some public works. Social Security could eventually be reformed to a system of private retirement accounts, known as a "provident fund" system and in use today in over thirty countries.
No "block grants" or other such schemes. Just terminate the programs. This would make State governments responsible for all such welfare-type programs, to do as they see fit, and to impose taxes appropriately to pay for them. Give them twelve months to get ready. States like California and Massachusetts would be free to introduce the single-payer healthcare system of their dreams, while other states, like Utah or Texas, might have more private-sector-based solutions. States are active in all of these spheres already.


For a long time, such proposals have been on the outer fringe of political possibility. We have been in a period of political stasis, where things haven't changed much. Basically, today we have a spending structure that was built in the 1960s and 1970s, and a tax structure that was built in the late 1980s/early 1990s, with a few minor tweaks along the way. In the meantime, other governments have had huge changes. Some abandoned centrally-planned Communism and adopted free-market capitalism. Some implemented "flat tax" reforms, using ideas developed in the U.S. I think our period of policy stasis is coming to an end, and that we too will find it easier to make big changes soon.
I think such a proposal would split both the Right and the Left. On the Left, some would jump at the chance of implementing policy at the State level, where there is often broad consensus on these matters and much could be accomplished quickly. On the Right, many would be overjoyed at the prospect of returning to American small-government ideals. Also on the Left, and the Right, we would find a large cohort of people who are basically attached to the big government status quo, and are enjoying their position as a parasite on the belly of the Leviathan. But if the former are in the majority, and the latter in the minority, we could get it done.


This would leave Federal spending limited to: the military, debt service, retirement benefits for Federal employees, and "everything else." This too could eventually be cut in half over time. At present, these categories constitute 38% of Federal spending, or 7.9% of GDP.
This reduced spending commitment could be funded with a much simpler tax system. To produce revenue of 7.9% of GDP, a single, simple tax like a 10% Federal sales tax or VAT would suffice. No more Federal income or payroll taxes. This should probably be codified in a Constitutional Amendment, modifying or eliminating the Sixteenth Amendment.
Of course, these reductions in Federal taxing and spending would be accompanied by increases in State taxing and spending. However, these new State-level spending programs would reflect our present ideals and state of knowledge, and be more sustainable, effective, and appropriate than today's legacy programs. Related government bureaucracies would be relatively lean and efficient, simply because they are new. Successful solutions could be imitated, and mistakes learned from. Competition between States would help governments to stay effective. Dissatisfied people could migrate to States where other like-minded people have gathered.
State politics would get very exciting. They would also get a lot more democratic, because each representative of State congress has a much smaller constituency than Federal congresspeople. Each member of the Massachusetts State Assembly, for example, has about 41,000 constituents, while each member of the U.S. Federal House of Representatives has about 760,000 constituents. Plus, their offices are probably near your house.
At the Federal level, the effectiveness of Congress would be much improved, because they would have a far simpler agenda.
Conservative scholars will recognize that this is the original form of the U.S. Federal government. The Constitution provides for certain "enumerated powers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumerated_powers_(United_States))" of the Federal government. Basically, they are related to foreign affairs: the military, foreign policy, international trade and tariffs, immigration and naturalization, acquisition of new territory, related debt issuance, and taxes to pay for these functions. All other functions of government were to be left to the States, who might in turn devolve them to counties or municipalities. In general, the principle was that all government functions should be addressed at the most local level possible. While the Federal government's functions were tightly constrained, State governments could largely do as they liked, limited by their own State constitutions.
The Constitution also effectively banned direct taxation such as an income tax, reflecting a long tradition in the West regarding direct taxation as a form of tyranny. The ancient Greeks embraced this principle, as did the ancient Romans after them. It was also a principle of the British. The first known income tax in Britain was in 1404. It was considered such a monstrosity that all records of it were burned, to conceal the possibility of such evil from later generations. Britain largely avoided direct taxation until the Napoleonic Wars of 1793-1815. An income tax (with a 10% rate) was introduced in 1799 to fund the military during wartime, but immediately after peace, the tax was eliminated. Again in 1816, all records of the income tax were burned, and Britain returned to a system of indirect taxation -- basically, excises (sales taxes on individual items) and tariffs.

More at: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanlewis/2019/05/09/maybe-its-time-to-cut-the-federal-government-in-half/#1fde41a3680a

Tariffs and a percentage tax on state budgets are what we should go to.

tfurrh
05-12-2019, 08:33 PM
Between Forbes and Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, I think we can make America great again!!!!*



*I am not a leftarian and am in support of cutting the government in half

Pauls' Revere
05-12-2019, 08:45 PM
And a flat tax as we discussed.

Excise tax% + sales tax%(1/2 of excise tax) = Flat rate%.

Swordsmyth
05-12-2019, 09:00 PM
And a flat tax as we discussed.

Excise tax% + sales tax%(1/2 of excise tax) = Flat rate%.
That's how I would tax at the state level.

Anti Globalist
05-12-2019, 09:06 PM
Won't happen anytime soon.

Pauls' Revere
05-12-2019, 09:06 PM
That's how I would tax at the state level.

That's how I'd do federal Level. I'd let the states tax at their whims, see who comes out on top.

Swordsmyth
05-12-2019, 09:09 PM
That's how I'd do federal Level. I'd let the states tax at their whims, see who comes out on top.
If the feds are going to tax the citizens domestically I agree but I still like my idea of eliminating federal involvement in domestic taxation.

Pauls' Revere
05-12-2019, 09:12 PM
If the feds are going to tax the citizens domestically I agree but I still like my idea of eliminating federal involvement in domestic taxation.

My take is they may as well since were paying for all this stuff either directly or indirectly. I'd rather have it be direct and simplified (as above) so that we all see exactly what the rate is.

Swordsmyth
05-12-2019, 09:15 PM
My take is they may as well since were paying for all this stuff either directly or indirectly. I'd rather have it be direct and simplified (as above) so that we all see exactly what the rate is.

I understand but isn't it better to protect the citizens from having any contact with federal revenuers?

It also makes it much easier for the states to resist the feds by going on a tax strike whereas the citizens would be crushed under the federal jackboot if they tried to start one.

Pauls' Revere
05-12-2019, 09:31 PM
I understand but isn't it better to protect the citizens from having any contact with federal revenuers?

It also makes it much easier for the states to resist the feds by going on a tax strike whereas the citizens would be crushed under the federal jackboot if they tried to start one.

The states won't resist, seriously, when has any of them made serious headway in secession? I'm strictly speaking of funding for Federal programs only, everything from military, post office, food stamps, ag subsidies, everything. i.e. I pay a Federal Tax at the pump each time I fill up.

Excise Tax% (taxed at P.O.S. post production) + Sales Tax% (1/2 of excise tax) = Federal Flat Tax Rate (not to exceed 100%)

You could have for example a 100% excise tax and 0% Sales Tax, thus demand would be pulled through production. or visa versa and 0% Excise and 100% sales tax thus pushing back against production. Couple this with say a 50% reduction in government then the tax burden would decrease as the government expenses become reduced.

Swordsmyth
05-12-2019, 09:41 PM
The states won't resist, seriously, when has any of them made serious headway in secession? I'm strictly speaking of funding for Federal programs only, everything from military, post office, food stamps, ag subsidies, everything. i.e. I pay a Federal Tax at the pump each time I fill up.

Excise Tax% (taxed at P.O.S. post production) + Sales Tax% (1/2 of excise tax) = Federal Flat Tax Rate (not to exceed 100%)

You could have for example a 100% excise tax and 0% Sales Tax, thus demand would be pulled through production. or visa versa and 0% Excise and 100% sales tax thus pushing back against production. Couple this with say a 50% reduction in government then the tax burden would decrease as the government expenses become reduced.

I'm not talking about secession necessarily, just a tax strike.

The Confederacy almost pulled off secession and I think the easier you make it the better.

timosman
05-12-2019, 09:52 PM
Let the Federal Reserve take over the Federal government and leave the states alone. They own them anyway. :D

Pauls' Revere
05-12-2019, 10:01 PM
Let the Federal Reserve take over the Federal government and leave the states alone. They own them anyway. :D

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to timosman again.

Or, do as Jackson did and KILL THE BANK.

timosman
05-12-2019, 10:20 PM
Send in the Bobs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnJzct7h3Dk

nikcers
05-12-2019, 10:22 PM
Thanos 2020

TheTexan
05-12-2019, 10:46 PM
Wacky fringe ideas like this have no place in Forbes magazine. I suspect the contributor of this article will need to shortly find new employment.

TheCount
05-12-2019, 11:04 PM
They'd just double the military budget to close the gap.

Swordsmyth
05-12-2019, 11:28 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to timosman again.

Or, do as Jackson did and KILL THE BANK.

Covered

phill4paul
05-13-2019, 05:07 AM
in short, most everything except for the military, national parks, and maybe some public works.

Why not sell off park land?

oyarde
05-13-2019, 08:39 AM
Why not sell off park land?

Ya , I somehow think they may not realize how much the govt claims to own .

timosman
05-13-2019, 08:43 AM
Ya , I somehow think they may not realize how much the govt claims to own .

How did the federal govt acquire all of these lands from the states? :confused:

oyarde
05-13-2019, 09:01 AM
How did the federal govt acquire all of these lands from the states? :confused:

There are three national parks in my home state all of which could belong to the state . Indiana Dunes which is a northen park , 15k acres on 15 miles of southern lake michigan shore . George Rogers Clark park at Vincennes on the Wabash River at a site thought to possibly be the site of Fort Sackville . The other boyhood home of lincoln .

ATruepatriot
05-13-2019, 09:11 AM
How did the federal govt acquire all of these lands from the states? :confused:

They stole them using the endangered species act and the antiquities act. Biggest land theft scam to ever hit this country yet.

oyarde
05-13-2019, 10:27 AM
Fed employee pensions should only be for military , others should be switched to 401k's .

Brian4Liberty
05-13-2019, 10:36 AM
States like California and Massachusetts would be free to introduce the single-payer healthcare system of their dreams

Leftist states don’t want to pay for that. State and local government won’t do anything that does not involve Federal money.

tod evans
05-13-2019, 10:41 AM
Leftist states don’t want to pay for that. State and local government won’t do anything that does not involve Federal money.

All the more reason to cut federal money..

Everything government gets involved in it fucks up.



If by cutting federal dollars state governments cease acting there'll be less that's fucked up.

Zippyjuan
05-13-2019, 11:53 AM
a single, simple tax like a 10% Federal sales tax or VAT would suffice.

How much revenue could a ten percent VAT collect? In 2012, the Tax Policy Center estimated that a five percent tax could collect $356 billion in revenues. That would cover interest on the debt and not much else. Ten percent then would be double that or $712 billion. Not enough for even just the Department of Defense. https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-would-rate-be-under-vat

2019 budget proposal called for $4.75 trillion. That would require 67% VAT rate based on the Tax Policy Center number.

But that is current spending. What about his suggested spending cuts? Even Ron and Rand Paul avoid getting rid of Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid (any politician suggesting such a thing would be voted out of office). If this is a real exercise of what could be done, we must leave those out.


No "block grants" or other such schemes. Just terminate the programs.

Not gonna happen.

He does not want to cut defense spending. That leaves us with Discretionary Spending minus Defense spending. Discretionary Spending is only $1.4 trillion and cutting out DOD ($750 billion) leaves $650 billion left. Cut all of that and we have $4.15 trillion. Now our VAT can be reduced to 65%. Most European countries have a VAT tax (it is in addition to other taxes) of 25%. If the US went to a VAT, you can be pretty sure it would be in addition to, not as a replacement for, current taxes as well.

What about the "national sales tax" in that line as well? Same cuts. Spending $4.15 trillion. US retail sales in 2018 were $5.35 trillion. To raise $4.15 trillion you need a national sales tax on everything (including food) of 78%- assuming that the tax does not impact retail sales- such a rate would have a dramatic impact on retail sales so a much higher rate -probably over 100%- would actually be required.

oyarde
05-13-2019, 01:39 PM
Some of these national parks were given to the feds during the depression because the states were able to shift the upkeep . Some of these states are in much better shape than the feds and these should be returned . This is a time of record tax collecting .