Immigration

[Pauls' Revere]

Just curious, where we stand.

[Swordsmyth]

Should have been a multiple choice poll.

[TheTexan]

I voted!!

Thanks for poll :cool:

[oyarde]

I was looking for Other . I am thinking just closed until further are needed . Then quota and you can check for distemper , rabies & income lottery .

[ATruepatriot]

Can you choose more than one?

[Zippyjuan]

I thought nobody here was for open borders?

[RonZeplin]

:check: 10 yr moratorium on all immigration, automatically renewed if at least 50M illegal alien invaders have not been deported.

[Zippyjuan]

:check: 10 yr moratorium on all immigration, automatically renewed if at least 50M illegal alien invaders have not been deported.

We are going to need to see some ID from you to be sure you are not one of "them". We will have to check with your employer and may have to stop you at least a couple of times on your way to/ from work. Don't want to miss anybody. Papers please! You forgot them? We will have to detain you until you can produce valid copies. Especially if you want to get rid of 50 million out of the eleven million here.

[RonZeplin]

We are going to need to see some ID from you to be sure you are not one of "them". We will have to check with your employer and may have to stop you at least a couple of times on your way to/ from work. Don't want to miss anybody. Papers please! You forgot them? We will have to detain you until you can produce valid copies. Especially if you want to get rid of 50 million out of the eleven million here.

Start with the million Dream Students whose names and addresses are in Trump's top desk drawer. Then the Dream maids and groundskeepers at Trump golf resorts. That's 2M without shaking anybody down. The illegals are easy to find, if we ever get a law abiding president that wants to faithfully execute the office of President as they swore in the Oath Of Office. :directhit:

[Stratovarious]

We are going to need to see some ID from you to be sure you are not one of "them". We will have to check with your employer and may have to stop you at least a couple of times on your way to/ from work. Don't want to miss anybody. Papers please! You forgot them? We will have to detain you until you can produce valid copies. Especially if you want to get rid of 50 million out of the eleven million here.

We already know who they are , where they live and how much welfare they collect.

Next......

[Schifference]

What happens in Canada? I think you can pretty much go there but you cannot work without criteria. Granting people access to spend money is one thing. Allowing them to work in a booming economy is also okay. Taking jobs in a down economy is a concern. One day this economy will collapse. Jobs will soon be outsourced to AI/robots. Entitlements should be off the table for any new immigrants. They should have sponsors and or the means to support themselves.

[Stratovarious]

Free entry to all;

Between the hours of 37am and 37:04am on the 5th tue of every 13th month of Dec.

[nobody's_hero]

I kind of like Trump's plan to send them straight to all the areas that *say* they are welcome.

Then we'll have a very clear comparison and contrast between what an open border society looks like and a closed one. The rest of the country can then point and laugh at places like San Francisco (more than now, even).

[Schifference]

What about a competency system along with a legitimate need base for example a relative dies and leaves children with no one to care for them so you take on the complete burden to care and raise them.

[Schifference]

I kind of like Trump's plan to send them straight to all the areas that *say* they are welcome.

Then we'll have a very clear comparison and contrast between what an open border society looks like and a closed one. The rest of the country can then point and laugh at places like San Francisco (more than now, even).

I like this also. You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nobody's_hero again.

[Anti Globalist]

I kind of like Trump's plan to send them straight to all the areas that *say* they are welcome.

Then we'll have a very clear comparison and contrast between what an open border society looks like and a closed one. The rest of the country can then point and laugh at places like San Francisco (more than now, even).
I like this idea.

[oyarde]

I thought nobody here was for open borders?

Probably about Half . The more optimistic and less realistic half are open borders

[TheTexan]

Probably about Half . The more optimistic and less realistic half are open borders

Yup. The smarter, more handsome half is for closed borders.

[oyarde]

Yup. The smarter, more handsome half is for closed borders.

Exactly . Us .

[Dr.3D]

I like this also. You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nobody's_hero again.
Covered. :)

[Krugminator2]

Unlimited immigration but with one simple fix. You have to pay to come here and if you can't come up with the money treat it like a mortgage. If you make the cost of citizenship $50,000 and a make people $10000 for a green card you solve a lot problems about people being a drain on the system. If someone comes here and doesn't pay, I would make the penalty strict and put them in jail.

That fix would deter illegal immigration and wouldn't restrict anyone's rights. You can come here if you are serious about coming here.

[oyarde]

Really I blame the the mundanes for consistently electing officials who are not capable of thinking of fresh ideas . For example , why do they get special treatment by being allowed to deport the less than desirable to us ? Why have we not been sending our rapists , murderers, food stamp rolls etc there ?

[Pauls' Revere]

Should have been a multiple choice poll.

One vote per person. LOL

[Swordsmyth]

One vote per person. LOL
But not all of those options are mutually exclusive.

[Pauls' Revere]

But not all of those options are mutually exclusive.

Alright, make a poll I'd like to vote.

[shakey1]

Free entry to all;

Between the hours of 37am and 37:04am on the 5th tue of every 13th month of Dec.

LOL... clearly not enough options in this poll. :cool:

[Schifference]

Unlimited immigration but with one simple fix. You have to pay to come here and if you can't come up with the money treat it like a mortgage. If you make the cost of citizenship $50,000 and a make people $10000 for a green card you solve a lot problems about people being a drain on the system. If someone comes here and doesn't pay, I would make the penalty strict and put them in jail.

That fix would deter illegal immigration and wouldn't restrict anyone's rights. You can come here if you are serious about coming here.

This sounds very sensible and logical. It is almost like having standards set to get a job or to enter a particular college or field. I became a nurse at almost 50. Went to a tech school and got an LPN. I was going to go for RN but decided against it. When I went to LPN school I never opened a book and received high 90's in all classes. Some people in the group struggled/failed on every test. They curve the grades so those people can pass. RN college has limited space. The nearest community college only has like 118 students accepted. The sad thing is only 20% are accepted based on their grades. They let 80% into the program that are stupid on a lottery system, to make things fair. The argument with your idea will be that immigration should not only be for the rich.

[Schifference]

Calculate the total number of people that can live in the USA. Put a cap on how many children any one person can have based on total US population. No more poor people with 12 children. Any person that has not met their lifetime allotment of children can choose, if they want, to petition and support an immigrant..

[enhanced_deficit]

Nothing would change till 2020 almost certainly (status quo). But in terms of what should happen, probably somewhere in the middle of two extremes of Coulter school of thought and Adelson school of thought on this ( MH1BGA (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?527029-Trump-I-want-to-scrap-all-H1B-visas&p=6733646&viewfull=1#post6733646) ).

There should have been a foreign policy dependency option also. These deliberations are sort of luxuries of current relative low warfare state in the otherwise perpetual war state that plays a significant role in demographic influx. God forbid if tomorrow MAGA's funding classes decided to start war with Iran or another major mideast war, won't be surprised if like Bush southern border is opened wide again and fast track options for people joining military from across the border.

[nobody's_hero]

Or we could go with the old Swiss model of immigration where the people in a particular town review a person's request to immigrate and decide whether or not they get to come and stay.

[Zippyjuan]

Calculate the total number of people that can live in the USA. Put a cap on how many children any one person can have based on total US population. No more poor people with 12 children. Any person that has not met their lifetime allotment of children can choose, if they want, to petition and support an immigrant..

India is smaller than the US and more resource poor and their population is a billion more than the US so based on that, we could probably easily support another billion. Domestic population is already growing at a slower rate than it is dying off so without any immigration we will shrink so the number of children in a family is not a problem. Russia is trying to encourage more babies to fight off their declining population.

[Superfluous Man]

Calculate the total number of people that can live in the USA.

That number would easily be several billion. And it wouldn't be a static number, but would continue to go up with technological advancements.

[ATruepatriot]

India is smaller than the US and more resource poor and their population is a billion more than the US so based on that, we could probably easily support another billion. Domestic population is already growing at a slower rate than it is dying off so without any immigration we will shrink so the number of children in a family is not a problem. Russia is trying to encourage more babies to fight off their declining population.

http://infochangeindia.org/environment/8-poverty/news/7689-international-media-draws-attention-to-indias-hidden-hunger

[RJB]

I kind of like Trump's plan to send them straight to all the areas that *say* they are welcome Send them to Zippy's and SuperE's houses They can sleep on their couches.

[RJB]

That number would easily be several billion. And it wouldn't be a static number, but would continue to go up with technological advancements.

Yeah. We'll put tents in your backyard, a few extra tables in your kitchen... There's plenty of room.

[ATruepatriot]

Yeah. We'll put tents in your backyard, a few extra tables in your kitchen... There's plenty of room.

Know what? If the socialist mouthpieces would cowboy up and actually set a personal example of sponsoring a couple strictly on their OWN DIME, I might consider listening to their side of the argument out of respect for their personal sincerity, sacrifice, and example. Until then it is all just garbage that they want someone ELSE to pay for.

[nobody's_hero]

India is smaller than the US and more resource poor and their population is a billion more than the US so based on that, we could probably easily support another billion. Domestic population is already growing at a slower rate than it is dying off so without any immigration we will shrink so the number of children in a family is not a problem. Russia is trying to encourage more babies to fight off their declining population.

Oh boy, I can't wait until America looks like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AytQEpwQUo

GTFO.

[Superfluous Man]

Yeah. We'll put tents in your backyard, a few extra tables in your kitchen... There's plenty of room.

If I did want to rent out or sell my property to anyone else I wanted from anywhere else in the world, that's my right, and neither you nor the federal government would have any right to interfere or demand that my business partner get the right government-issued papers first.

That said, your suggestion wouldn't be necessary. My family could occupy a space the size of our property without adding any extra people to it, and that could be multiplied until you had 1.5 billion people at the same population density as the population density of my property, and it would only take a land area the size of texas to accommodate that many, leaving plenty of extra space in the rest of the area of the whole USA for farmland to grow more than enough food for that population, roads, businesses and another 1.5 billion people.

And the USA would still not be full.

Overpopulation is a myth.

ETA: And when and if the demand for property in the USA did catch up to the enormous supply, the market is capable of dealing with that scarcity without any government regulation through the mechanism of price. The market should be allowed to work.

[RJB]

and that could be multiplied until you had 1.5 billion people at the same population density as the population density of my property,

And the USA would still not be full.

Overpopulation is a myth.


I could fit 30 people in my house, but that would suck. There is a creek where I swam and fished as a boy, but my kids can't play in it because of pollution from overpopulation. I don't need 4 times the population on my commute to work. It's backed up enough.

Western societies have not been the best stewards of the land, but we have been good enough that others want to move here after trashing their own place.

If you prefer the population density of India or China, please, move there. Do not bring those slums here.

Feel free to join them

http://populationcontrolinindia.weebly.com/uploads/1/7/1/3/17135316/3927015_orig.png

[Swordsmyth]

If I did want to rent out or sell my property to anyone else I wanted from anywhere else in the world, that's my right, and neither you nor the federal government would have any right to interfere or demand that my business partner get the right government-issued papers first.

That said, your suggestion wouldn't be necessary. My family could occupy a space the size of our property without adding any extra people to it, and that could be multiplied until you had 1.5 billion people at the same population density as the population density of my property, and it would only take a land area the size of texas to accommodate that many, leaving plenty of extra space in the rest of the area of the whole USA for farmland to grow more than enough food for that population, roads, businesses and another 1.5 billion people.

And the USA would still not be full.

Overpopulation is a myth.

ETA: And when and if the demand for property in the USA did catch up to the enormous supply, the market is capable of dealing with that scarcity without any government regulation through the mechanism of price. The market should be allowed to work.
Your friend would need to get permission to join our society and America is overpopulated with big government lovers, we don't need or want any more to come here.

[Superfluous Man]

Your friend would need to get permission to join our society and America is overpopulated with big government lovers, we don't need or want any more to come here.

You have no right to demand that they get your permission except when it comes to your property.

[Swordsmyth]

You have no right to demand that they get your permission except when it comes to your property.
I have every right to demand it because they will be allowed to participate in imposing their beliefs on me through politics.

[RJB]

You have no right to demand that they get your permission except when it comes to your property.

How do you feel about the mass importation of people who are against the 2nd Amendment? Is an invading army who wishes to violently disarm me different from people who vote to violently disarm me?

[ATruepatriot]

I have every right to demand it because they will be allowed to participate in imposing their beliefs on me through politics.

The problem is indirect. They will vote in those who will indeed take away your private property or make it economically unaffordable to keep it. So it is indirectly a threat to your private property anyhow.

[Swordsmyth]

The problem is indirect. They will vote in those who will indeed take away your private property or make it economically unaffordable to keep it. So it is indirectly a threat to your private property anyhow.
Exactly, and if we had an anarchy they would get together and impose a government.

[Zippyjuan]

Oh boy, I can't wait until America looks like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AytQEpwQUo

GTFO.

At 0.7% current population growth rate, it would take us 200 years to have the same population India currently has. And we are larger so even longer to get to the same population density they have.

[ATruepatriot]

At 0.7% current population growth rate, it would take us 200 years to have the same population India currently has. And we are larger so even longer to get to the same population density they have.

Please explain so that I understand the total disconnect here. How did economic displacement become confused with physical displacement? lol

[nobody's_hero]

Overpopulation is a myth.

.

If getting the most freedom possible is your goal, you probably want lower density. I challenge you to find one instance where freedom expanded as cities grew. Ever wonder why urban areas overwhelmingly vote for nanny-staters?


Living out in the country, I can:


Shoot fireworks.

Shoot guns.

Start a bon fire.

Play loud music.

Ride 4 wheelers.

Run around naked.

Have a chicken coop.

Build a survival bunker.


In the city, well, I have do gooder neighbors who don't like fun, and demand ordinances to restrain each other. I challenge you to find any instance where people living in a city have more freedom than rural bumpkins. Granted, eventually things will get that way everywhere, 'you can't stop progress', but no need to speed it along.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yJeRTqleHY

[ATruepatriot]

If getting the most freedom possible is your goal, you probably want lower density. I challenge you to find one instance where freedom expanded as cities grew. Ever wonder why urban areas overwhelmingly vote for nanny-staters?


Living out in the country, I can:


Shoot fireworks.

Shoot guns.

Start a bon fire.

Play loud music.

Ride 4 wheelers.

Run around naked.

Have a chicken coop.

Build a survival bunker.


In the city, well, I have do gooder neighbors who don't like fun, and demand ordinances to restrain each other. I challenge you to find any instance where people living in a city have more freedom than rural bumpkins. Granted, eventually things will get that way everywhere, 'you can't stop progress', but no need to speed it along.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yJeRTqleHY

Very good and absolutely. And the worst thing is it is happening already. The one size fits all codes that they think are needed in the urban cities are being forced on rural folks where they don't even apply. In this way they are forcing this failed culture of oppression on those of us who do not have these social cultural problems because of density. I also challenge someone to come up with just one example of how denser demographics and local urban governments are freer than rural demographics. It cannot be done. One is free, the other is self enslavement.

[Philhelm]

India is smaller than the US and more resource poor and their population is a billion more than the US so based on that, we could probably easily support another billion. Domestic population is already growing at a slower rate than it is dying off so without any immigration we will shrink so the number of children in a family is not a problem. Russia is trying to encourage more babies to fight off their declining population.

Shithole countries.

[Sammy]

1)Repeal Birthright citizenship & end welfare for immigrants
2)Reduce legal immigration & deport all illegal immigrants
3)Build a wall & Ban Muslim immigration

[Superfluous Man]

If getting the most freedom possible is your goal....

It isn't.

My first goal isn't to better my own lot by any means necessary, even if it means doing wrong to someone else. My first goal is to not wrong someone else, even if I think I could improve my lot by wronging them.

While I disagree with your prescription as a means of attaining that goal anyway, and think that allowing other people to do what they want as long as they aren't violating others' rights would end up benefiting me too in the end, that isn't my main goal.

[Swordsmyth]

It isn't.

My first goal isn't to better my own lot by any means necessary, even if it means doing wrong to someone else. My first goal is to not wrong someone else, even if I think I could improve my lot by wronging them.

While I disagree with your prescription as a means of attaining that goal anyway, and think that allowing other people to do what they want as long as they aren't violating others' rights would end up benefiting me too in the end, that isn't my main goal.
They are violating our rights and there is nothing wrong with keeping them out.

[RJB]

That's very noble. You should become a guru, move to India, and meditate on a world of butterflies, rainbows and unicorns.

It isn't.

My first goal isn't to better my own lot by any means necessary, even if it means doing wrong to someone else. My first goal is to not wrong someone else, even if I think I could improve my lot by wronging them.

While I disagree with your prescription as a means of attaining that goal anyway, and think that allowing other people to do what they want as long as they aren't violating others' rights would end up benefiting me too in the end, that isn't my main goal.

[Superfluous Man]

That's very noble. You should become a guru, move to India, and meditate on a world of butterflies, rainbows and unicorns.

Or I could be a Christian, which is what I already am.

Do you think Jesus should have done all those things you said too?

[RJB]

Or I could be a Christian, which is what I already am.

Do you think Jesus should have done all those things you said too?

We are allowed to defend ourselves, our way of life, and that of our offspring. Have you read the history of nations with weak borders? What exactly have I said that you think God would disagree?

And again: How is an invasion by an army that wishes to violently disarm me different from mass immigration that will vote to have me violently disarmed?

[Superfluous Man]

We are allowed to defend ourselves, our way of life, and that of our offspring. Have you read the history of nations with weak borders? What exactly have I said that you think God would disagree?

And again: How is an invasion by an army that wishes to violently disarm me different from mass immigration that will vote to have me violently disarmed?

What's the reference for the nations with weak borders passage of the Bible that you're talking about?

I think it's clear that pretty much everything you've said on this issue is the diametric opposite of what Jesus taught. I don't see how you can even dispute that.

[Swordsmyth]

What's the reference for the nations with weak borders passage of the Bible that you're talking about?

I think it's clear that pretty much everything you've said on this issue is the diametric opposite of what Jesus taught. I don't see how you can even dispute that.
LOL

Why then did he say that anyone without a sword should sell his garment and buy one?

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2018/06/what-does-the-bible-say-about-refugees-and-foreigners/


Matthew 25:35-40

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ —(New International Version)


Leviticus 19:33-34

When immigrants live in your land with you, you must not cheat them. Any immigrant who lives with you must be treated as if they were one of your citizens. You must love them as yourself, because you were immigrants in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.


Jeremiah 22:3

The Lord proclaims: Do what is just and right; rescue the oppressed from the power of the oppressor. Don’t exploit or mistreat the refugee, the orphan, and the widow. Don’t spill the blood of the innocent in this place. —(Common English Bible)

[Anti Federalist]

Or I could be a Christian, which is what I already am.

Do you think Jesus should have done all those things you said too?

Suicide Christian...Kindness that can kill.

[Swordsmyth]

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2018/06/what-does-the-bible-say-about-refugees-and-foreigners/
Matthew 25:35-40

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ —(New International Version)


Charity begins at home:

Matthew 26:11 “For ye have the poor always with you;”

King James Version (KJV)


Leviticus 19:33-34

When immigrants live in your land with you, you must not cheat them. Any immigrant who lives with you must be treated as if they were one of your citizens. You must love them as yourself, because you were immigrants in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.

It doesn't say how many we have to let in.

[RJB]

What's the reference for the nations with weak borders passage of the Bible that you're talking about?

I think it's clear that pretty much everything you've said on this issue is the diametric opposite of what Jesus taught. I don't see how you can even dispute that.
There are many references to the nations. How do you have many nations without respect for borders. Do you wish for a new Roman Empire? This would be a good debate for the religion forum, eh E?

And again you have yet to tell me where God would disagree with me. And you have yet to explain the difference between an invasion of an army that wants to violently disarm me an those who vote to violently disarm me.

[Superfluous Man]

LOL

Why then did he say that anyone without a sword should sell his garment and buy one?

Wait. Are you suggesting that he said that people should buy swords to use them to stop people from immigrating? That's just weird.

In fact, he positively prohibited his disciples from using the sword to rule over others like the rulers of the nations do.

And notice that the passage to which you're referring doesn't end with that verse, but it goes on to relate how his disciples responded to him by taking up swords and bringing them along when he was arrested, at which point they asked if they should use them in defense of him (with one of them cutting off a soldier's ear), and he prohibited them from doing so. This context should always be kept in mind when citing that verse.

[Swordsmyth]

Suicide Christian...Kindness that can kill.
Somehow he isn't responsible for the harm his policies will cause.:rolleyes:

Is it not ungodly to deprive people of their rights?

2 Chronicles 19:2 “And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.”

King James Version (KJV)

[Swordsmyth]

Wait. Are you suggesting that he said that people should buy swords to use them to stop people from immigrating? That's just weird.

In fact, he positively prohibited his disciples from using the sword to rule over others like the rulers of the nations do.

And notice that the passage to which you're referring doesn't end with that verse, but it goes on to relate how his disciples responded to him by taking up swords and bringing them along when he was arrested, at which point they asked if they should use them in defense of him (with one of them cutting off a soldier's ear), and he prohibited them from doing so. This context should always be kept in mind when citing that verse.
He said they should buy swords to defend themselves, keeping out immigrants that will destroy our liberty is defending ourselves.

Is it not ungodly to deprive people of their rights?

2 Chronicles 19:2

“And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.”

King James Version (KJV)

[Superfluous Man]

There are many references to the nations.

That's a strange argument. Yes, there are many references to all kinds of sin as well. But what's the takeaway from those passages? It's not that sin exists, so we ought to sin. One important reference to nations is Jesus commanding his disciples to repudiate the methods of the rulers of the nations to rule over others.


Do you wish for a new Roman Empire?

I don't wish for one. But Jesus calls his followers to follow the approach he took in dealing with that Empire.

[Superfluous Man]

He said they should buy swords to defend themselves

That's not what he said. And in fact, in the following verses that you disregarded they asked if they should use them for that purpose, and he said no.


Is it not ungodly to deprive people of their rights?

Yes it is, provided "rights" are defined according to God's law, which is why I refuse to support depriving people of their rights.

[Superfluous Man]

Suicide Christian...Kindness that can kill.

You've said that before, and my response is still the same. Do you call Jesus that same name? He actually went to his death following this way of life.

[RJB]

That's a strange argument. Yes, there are many references to all kinds of sin as well. But what's the takeaway from those passages? It's not that sin exists, so we ought to sin. One important reference to nations is Jesus commanding his disciples to repudiate the methods of the rulers of the nations to rule over others.



I don't wish for one. But Jesus calls his followers to follow the approach he took in dealing with that Empire.
You totally ignored every question and point I made in my last post except for my sarcastic one. Why?

[Swordsmyth]

That's not what he said. And in fact, in the following verses that you disregarded they asked if they should use them for that purpose, and he said no.
He said they should not use them to stop his arrest because it was time for his sacrifice.




Yes it is, provided "rights" are defined according to God's law, which is why I refuse to support depriving people of their rights.
You do support those who will deprive us of our rights.

[Superfluous Man]

He said they should not use them to stop his arrest because it was time for his sacrifice.


He didn't say that either.

And his sacrifice isn't an anomaly that diverges from the kind of life he calls his disciples to live. It's a pattern he calls us to follow.

[Swordsmyth]

You've said that before, and my response is still the same. Do you call Jesus that same name? He actually went to his death following this way of life.
He had a divine purpose for his death and it was to save mankind you are demanding that others go to their deaths and it will result in dooming mankind.

[Superfluous Man]

You do support those who will deprive us of our rights.

I don't support any action of theirs or anyone else's that deprives anyone else of any rights, properly defined.

[Swordsmyth]

He didn't say that either.
Yes he did:

John
Chapter 1810 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-18-10/)Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-18-11/)Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?





He didn't say that we must allow in an unlimited number of immigrants.

[Superfluous Man]

He had a divine purpose for his death and it was to save mankind you are demanding that others go to their deaths and it will result in dooming mankind.

It's not me demanding that. Jesus demanded that his disciples take up their crosses and follow him.

Ironically, Jesus proved that this didn't doom him, and won't doom mankind either, but is really the path to victory, not defeat.

[Swordsmyth]

I don't support any action of theirs or anyone else's that deprives anyone else of any rights, properly defined.
Your definitions are faulty.

[Superfluous Man]

Yes he did:

John
Chapter 1810 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-18-10/)Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-18-11/)Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?


You're mixing up two totally different passages. The sword one we were talking about is in Luke 22.

[Zippyjuan]

He said they should buy swords to defend themselves, keeping out immigrants that will destroy our liberty is defending ourselves.

Is it not ungodly to deprive people of their rights?

2 Chronicles 19:2

“And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.”

King James Version (KJV)

When told to buy swords, the apostles showed Jesus they had two swords among them. Jesus said "That is enough." It was not to build an army or a defense force. And they were not to protect anybody from immigrants. When Peter tried to use his sword on the Romans arresting Jesus, Jesus stopped him and healed the ear Peter cut.

"He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword."

https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2014/let-the-one-who-has-no-sword-buy-one-the-biblical-argument-for-gun-control-part-two


The setting is the final week of Jesus’ life. Having just celebrated the Passover with his disciples, Jesus warns them of his impending betrayal and of Peter’s threefold denial. He then cautions them concerning difficulties to come: “Then Jesus said, ‘When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?’ ‘Nothing,’ they answered. He said to them, ‘But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.’” The disciples then produce two swords, which prompts Jesus to respond, “That’s enough!” (NIV)


In their accounts of Jesus’ betrayal and arrest in Gethsemane, all four gospel writers record that one of Jesus’ followers draws a sword and attempts to meet violence with violence. We learn from John that the culprit is Peter, who actually sliced off the ear of the High Priest’s slave, Malchus (John 18:10). Apparently, Peter interpreted Jesus’ enigmatic statement on acquiring a sword in the manner that gun-rights advocates suggest, as an endorsement of violent resistance—and is sternly rebuked by Jesus: “No more of this!” (Luke 22:51); “Put away your sword!” (Matt. 26:52; John 18:11). In Matthew’s account, Jesus adds the following rationale to his reprimand: “For all who take up the sword will die by the sword.”

Does he argue for protection?


“If someone slaps your right cheek, turn to them your other cheek also”

[Swordsmyth]

It's not me demanding that. Jesus demanded that his disciples take up their crosses and follow him.
That was metaphorical and not a command that we all allow ourselves and our loved ones to be robbed and murdered.



Ironically, Jesus proved that this didn't doom him, and won't doom mankind either, but is really the path to victory, not defeat.
:rolleyes:
Christ had a purpose in his death that we do not and we have a duty to one another to defend eachother's rights.

[Swordsmyth]

You're mixing up two totally different passages. The sword one we were talking about is in Luke 22.
I'm not mixing up anything, you claimed that I was wrong when I said Christ commanded his Apostles not to use their swords to prevent his arrest because it was time for his sacrifice, this is that incident.

[RJB]

In fact, he positively prohibited his disciples from using the sword to rule over others like the rulers of the nation
And for the record, I do not want to rule over anyone. I simply wish to be left alone, practice my rights,and live in an area where where I suffer neither excess crime or police. Mass immigration without assimilation does threaten that. I have seen it in formerly nice areas in L.A.

[Superfluous Man]

That was metaphorical and not a command that we all allow ourselves and our loved ones to be robbed and murdered.

It was not metaphorical. It was very literal and real, and the original audience of those words took them very seriously, and did follow him in suffering much persecution, including in some cases the death penalty.



Christ had a purpose in his death

Yes. And one purpose was to show us what he meant by, "take up your cross and follow me."


we have a duty to one another to defend eachother's rights.

Jesus also shows us the means by which we are to do that, and those by which we are not. Using the sword to rule over others so as to prevent future crimes by those we suspect will one day commit them is not his way.

[Superfluous Man]

And for the record, I do not want to rule over anyone.

You clearly do.


I simply wish to be left alone, practice my rights,and live in an area where where I suffer neither excess crime or police.

Then you should likewise leave others alone the same way you want to be left alone.


Mass immigration without assimilation does threaten that.

Notice how you say "threaten." Immigration and non-assimilation in themselves don't violate anyone's rights. And not all who immigrate without assimilating to whatever it is you want the government to require them to assimilate to (somehow all without ruling over them?) do the things you mean by excess crime. But you want to preempt future violations of rights by stopping people from doing acts that in themselves aren't violations of rights as some kind of pre-crime enforcement. This is to do what Jesus told his followers not to do in Matthew 20:25-26.

[dillo]

Jus soli needs to go

[Superfluous Man]

I'm not mixing up anything, you claimed that I was wrong when I said Christ commanded his Apostles not to use their swords to prevent his arrest because it was time for his sacrifice, this is that incident.

Go back and reread those posts. You brought up the Luke 22 passage, though you didn't cite the reference, and that was the passage I was talking about. Luke is not the only Gospel to relate the account of a disciple using the sword at that incident. But it is the one we were discussing.

[RJB]

You clearly do.

Oh FFS. You don't have the balls to answer my points that explain my reasoning, nor tell me where I disagree with God, yet you will tell me what I believe. Lol.


ETA. I made this response when he replied with just the reply above. He answered more shortly after in an edit, so I will reply to that separately.

[nobody's_hero]

Very good and absolutely. And the worst thing is it is happening already. The one size fits all codes that they think are needed in the urban cities are being forced on rural folks where they don't even apply. In this way they are forcing this failed culture of oppression on those of us who do not have these social cultural problems because of density. I also challenge someone to come up with just one example of how denser demographics and local urban governments are freer than rural demographics. It cannot be done. One is free, the other is self enslavement.

Oh believe me, I know. The city has been annexing bits of the county year by year, and I could throw a stone and hit the city limits sign. There's gonna be a mighty hell-raising if they move the signs again.

[nobody's_hero]

It isn't.

My first goal isn't to better my own lot by any means necessary, even if it means doing wrong to someone else. My first goal is to not wrong someone else, even if I think I could improve my lot by wronging them.

While I disagree with your prescription as a means of attaining that goal anyway, and think that allowing other people to do what they want as long as they aren't violating others' rights would end up benefiting me too in the end, that isn't my main goal.

Then you have an admirable goal, I'll give you that. Meanwhile you've been losing liberty day by day and by some miracle of inner peace, you don't seem to let it affect you.

For a lot of folks, it's starting to get under our skin.

[Swordsmyth]

When told to buy swords, the apostles showed Jesus they had two swords among them. Jesus said "That is enough." And they were not to protect anybody from immigrants. When Peter tried to use his sword on the Romans arresting Jesus, Jesus stopped him and healed the ear Peter cut.
The swords were to protect themselves and two was enough for right then so they did not have to rush out and buy more immediately because they were all together.
He stopped Peter because it was time for his sacrifice:

John
Chapter 18

10 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-18-10/)Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-18-11/)Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?







"He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword."

https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2014/let-the-one-who-has-no-sword-buy-one-the-biblical-argument-for-gun-control-part-two

Defending yourself is not "living by the sword" and dying by the sword is not damnation.





Does he argue for protection?
A slap on the cheek is nothing and Christ's teachings on the mount were to those who were being groomed for leadership positions and had to set a special example they were not intended for the members at large:

Matthew
Chapter 5 1 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-1/)And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him

13 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-13/)Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-14/)Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-15/)Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-16/)Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


There is much there that applies to everyone but the extreme restrictions do not apply to everyone, this part for instance:

Matthew
Chapter 6

25 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-25/)Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-26/)Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-27/)Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-28/)And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-29/)And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-30/)Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-31/)Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-32/)(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-33/)But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-6-34/)Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.






He also commanded that the wicked be kept separate from the righteous and that certainly applies to those who would deprive us of our liberty:

Matthew
Chapter 5

29 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-29/)And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-5-30/)And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.



Those who preach suicide Christianity should consider this part:

Matthew
Chapter 7

15 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-7-15/)Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-7-16/)Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-7-17/)Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-7-18/)A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-7-19/)Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-7-20/)Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-7-21/)Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-7-22/)Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-7-23/)And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Their doctrine does not bring good fruit, it brings evil fruit.



The sermon on the mount is also filled with simple instructions that are general and do not cover all of the details or exceptions.

[Swordsmyth]

Go back and reread those posts. You brought up the Luke 22 passage, though you didn't cite the reference, and that was the passage I was talking about. Luke is not the only Gospel to relate the account of a disciple using the sword at that incident. But it is the one we were discussing.
LOL


I brought up the events and I will use any of the accounts of them that I choose to prove my point, you can't disprove my point so you are trying to play lawyer and limit which sources I am allowed.

[Swordsmyth]

Notice how you say "threaten." Immigration and non-assimilation in themselves don't violate anyone's rights. And not all who immigrate without assimilating to whatever it is you want the government to require them to assimilate to (somehow all without ruling over them?) do the things you mean by excess crime. But you want to preempt future violations of rights by stopping people from doing acts that in themselves aren't violations of rights as some kind of pre-crime enforcement. This is to do what Jesus told his followers not to do in Matthew 20:25-26.
We have a right to limit immigration to defend against the threat and those who violate our limits do violate our rights.
We own our territory and we have a right to own it.

[Swordsmyth]

It was not metaphorical. It was very literal and real, and the original audience of those words took them very seriously, and did follow him in suffering much persecution, including in some cases the death penalty.
It was absolutely metaphorical or Christianity would require us all to get ourselves killed on purpose, it doesn't.
Those who suffered death for their faith may have been following his teachings and that led to their deaths but those who did not suffer death also followed his teachings.





Yes. And one purpose was to show us what he meant by, "take up your cross and follow me."
Only so far as to be willing to die rather than give up the faith.




Jesus also shows us the means by which we are to do that, and those by which we are not. Using the sword to rule over others so as to prevent future crimes by those we suspect will one day commit them is not his way.
Defending ourselves from those who violate our rights by invading our territory in violation of our limits is not "Using the sword to rule over others so as to prevent future crimes by those we suspect will one day commit them is not his way."

[Zippyjuan]

He also commanded that the wicked be kept separate from the righteous and that certainly applies to those who would deprive us of our liberty:

So Christians from Central America should be kept apart from the unrighteous here. Or are you claiming to be more righteous than they are?


Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing,

"Judge not lest ye be judged! "

[Swordsmyth]

So Christians from Central America should be kept apart from the unrighteous.
If they can manage it.
Or if you want to volunteer to go help them manage it.



Or are you claiming to be more righteous than they are?
If they want socialism which will violate my rights then I am, I do not seek to go into their territory in violation of their rules and deprive them of their rights.

[RJB]

So Christians from Central America should be kept apart from the unrighteous.

What an emotion based argument.

If they overwhelmingly vote against the 2nd Amendment, see free speech as hate speech (depending on the latest sjw fads of course), and who don't think the US is socialist enough and that we should aspire to be like Venezuela or whatever other country they trashed and left behind, then yes.

[Zippyjuan]

If they can manage it.
Or if you want to volunteer to go help them manage it.



If they want socialism which will violate my rights then I am, I do not seek to go into their territory in violation of their rules and deprive them of their rights.

Socialism is actually very Christian.


31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[ATruepatriot]

Oh believe me, I know. The city has been annexing bits of the county year by year, and I could throw a stone and hit the city limits sign. There's gonna be a mighty hell-raising if they move the signs again.

My biggest problem is the one size fit's all codes they impose where they are not needed and make no sense. Like no camping in your vehicle ordinances where they would come out 50 miles to write up someone with 20 acres because they let someone park their RV and sleep in it overnight. Yet in the meantime in the Cities they have a huge homeless problem with everyone living in tents and crapping everywhere and not doing a damned thing about it. I have had them tell me that I could not have a spare refrigerator on my back porch because it's an eyesore, yet the nearest neighbor and public road is over a mile away and can't see my back porch. They don't understand or care that we don't have a store on every corner and have to stock up on food and need that to survive and get by. In this way the problems and city culture and mentality is being forced on rural folks without reason. I'm sick of ignorant laws that are passed in the city because of their screwed up mess being forced on us in the sticks even though they make absolutely no sense at all where we live. Those are just a couple examples... As you know there are hundreds.

[Swordsmyth]

Socialism is actually very Christian.
Where does it say there that the government should decide what to take from who and who to give it to?

Charity is Christian, Socialism is of the devil.

[Zippyjuan]

Where does it say there that the government should decide what to take from who and who to give it to?

Charity is Christian, Socialism is of the devil.

Where is that in the Bible?


Romans 13:6-7 English Standard Version (ESV)

6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A6-7&version=ESV

(the Bible has mixed messages on taxes and tax collectors)

[Swordsmyth]

Where is that in the Bible?
Thou shalt not steal.

[RJB]

Socialism is actually very Christian.

For posterity.

[Anti Federalist]

You've said that before, and my response is still the same. Do you call Jesus that same name? He actually went to his death following this way of life.

Let me tell you a story, about a family that Mrs. AF and I both know, Dr. Jack and wife, who lived two towns over from us.

Both devoted Christians, Ron Paul, freedom minded liberty folks, who, being compelled by Christian charity, opened their home to two twin Russian boys, one of whom was "broken" by the notorious Russian orphanage system.

They showed both love, faith, homeschooled attention and devotion in a great environment.

Roughly four weeks ago, that 11 year old boy, got a hold of one of his dad's pistols, and executed both of them while they slept.

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/03/19/juvenile-charged-fatal-double-shooting-alton-new-hampshire

Kindness that killed.

I am not Christ.

I can not perform sundry miracle of feeding thousands and turning water into wine.

If I subsidize sloth, migrancy, stupidity, bone idleness and all the rest, then all I will get is more of it.

And when those masses realize that I, or my "system", cannot cure, feed, take of, and provide for them and the millions more of halt, sick, lame and lazy in the world, then they will turn on me and kill me.

And that is the only way I, or anybody else in this fallen world, is in any way like Christ.

When you tell these assholes the truth, they will kill you.

Which is why I have no problem whatsoever with carving out a small portion of this rock for me and mine, and defending it up to and including using lethal force to do so.

[Anti Federalist]

Where is that in the Bible?

2 Thessalonians chapter 3:10 'for even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: if a man will not work, he shall not eat.'

[Zippyjuan]

Thou shalt not steal.

Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's.

[ATruepatriot]

So Christians from Central America should be kept apart from the unrighteous here. Or are you claiming to be more righteous than they are?



"Judge not lest ye be judged! "

The new angle now? Can't argue against the reality and truth of cause and effect so you go to the religious guilt angle? Here are your innocent Christians from Central America.

Departments of Justice and Homeland Security Release Quarterly Alien Incarceration Report Highlighting the Negative Effects of Illegal Immigration and the Need for Border Security



President Trump’s Executive Order on Enhancing Public Safety in the Interior of the United States requires the Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to collect relevant data and provide quarterly reports on data collection efforts. On June 7, 2018 DOJ and DHS released the FY 2018 1st Quarter Alien Incarceration Report, complying with this order.[1] The report found that more than one-in-five of all persons in Bureau of Prisons custody were known or suspected aliens, and 93 percent of confirmed aliens in DOJ custody were in the United States unlawfully.

"The illegal immigrant crime rate in this country should be zero," said Attorney General Sessions. "Every crime committed by an illegal alien is, by definition, a crime that should have been prevented. It is outrageous that tens of thousands of Americans are dying every year because of the drugs and violence brought over our borders illegally and that taxpayers have been forced, year after year, to pay millions of dollars to incarcerate tens of thousands of illegal aliens. That is another reason why the Department of Justice under President Trump's leadership has instituted a zero tolerance policy for illegal entry on our Southwest border. Today's report is yet another reminder that we must continue this policy and help fulfill President Trump's goals of restoring lawfulness to our immigration system and ensure that immigration serves the good of this country."

“Bad actors know well our legal loopholes which act as a magnet for illegal immigration,” said Secretary Nielsen. “As DHS continues to carry out President Trump’s immigration priorities to keep America safe, Congress must urgently act to close dangerous loopholes that attract criminal aliens and also inhibit our ability to remove them.”

Section 16 of the Executive Order directs the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Attorney General to collect relevant data and provide quarterly reports regarding: (a) the immigration status of all aliens incarcerated under the supervision of the Federal Bureau of Prisons; (b) the immigration status of all aliens incarcerated as federal pretrial detainees under the supervision of the United States Marshals Service; and (c) the immigration status of all convicted aliens in state prisons and local detention centers throughout the United States.

A total of 57,820 known or suspected aliens were in in DOJ custody at the end of FY 2018 Q1, including 38,132 persons in BOP custody and 19,688 in USMS custody. Of this total, 42,284 people had been confirmed by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to be aliens (i.e., non-citizens and non-nationals), while 15,536 aliens were still under investigation by ICE to determine alienage and/or removability.

Among the 42,284 confirmed aliens, 39,413 people (93 percent) were unlawfully present. These numbers include a 62 percent unlawful rate among 38,132 known or suspected aliens in BOP custody and a 78 percent unlawful rate among 19,688 confirmed aliens in USMS custody.

Approximately 16,233 aliens in USMS custody required housing in state, local, and private facilities, which cost $1,458,372.72 a day.

For the first time, the Quarterly Alien Incarceration Report included examples of newly sentenced or incarcerated aliens in BOP custody. These examples include, but are not limited to:

Anibel Rondolpho Rodriguez, an illegal alien from Honduras who was residing in Freeport, NY, was sentenced to 45 years in prison after he pled guilty to racketeering charges, two murder conspiracies, two attempted murders, and threatening to commit assault.
Eduardo Martinez, an illegal alien who was residing in Fort Wayne, Indiana, was sentenced to 324 months in prison after he pled guilty to possession with intent to distribute more than a kilogram of heroin, distribution of over 50 grams of methamphetamine, and possession of a firearm.
Pedro Quintero-Enriques, an illegal alien from Mexico who was residing in Summerdale, Alabama, was sentenced to 108 months in prison after he pled guilty to illegal reentry after deportation and felon in possession of firearms.

This report does not include data on the alien populations in state prisons and local jails because state and local facilities do not routinely provide DHS or DOJ with comprehensive information about their inmates and detainees—which account for approximately 90 percent of the total U.S. incarcerated population.

Information Regarding Immigration Status of Aliens Incarcerated Under the Supervision of the Federal Bureau of Prisons

The Department of Justice’s Bureau of Prisons (BOP) has an operational process for maintaining data regarding foreign-born inmates in its custody. On a quarterly basis, BOP supplies this information to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). ICE, in turn, analyzes that information to determine the immigration status of each inmate and provides that information back to BOP.

Out of the 183,058 inmates in BOP custody, 38,132 (twenty-one percent) were reported by BOP as known or suspected aliens. Further details regarding these 38,132 known or suspected aliens are as follows:

20,976 (55 percent) were unauthorized aliens who are subject to a final order of removal;

11,698 (31 percent) remain under ICE investigation;

2,850 (seven percent) were unlawfully present and now in removal proceedings;

2,484 (approximately seven percent) were lawfully present aliens but are now in removal proceedings; and

124 were aliens who have been granted relief or protection from removal.

Information Regarding the Immigration Status of Aliens Incarcerated as Federal Pretrial Detainees

USMS identified 19,688 confirmed aliens under ICE investigation detained at USMS facilities. Further details regarding these 19,688 confirmed aliens are as follows:

13,858 (70 percent) were aliens who are subject to a final order of removal;

3,838 (19 percent) remain under ICE investigation;

1,560 (7.9 percent) were unlawfully present and now in removal proceedings;

387 (approximately two percent) were lawfully present but are now in removal proceedings; and

45 were aliens who have been granted relief or protection from removal.

Pending Charges Against Confirmed Aliens in USMS Custody

Of the 19,688 confirmed aliens in USMS custody, 10,971 (56 percent) were in custody for an immigration related offense. Additionally, 4,665 (nearly 24 percent) aliens were in custody for drug related offenses. Further details regarding the related charges of these inmates are as follows:

974 (approximately five percent) were in custody for supervision violations;
889 (approximately five percent) were in custody for property offenses;
391 (approximately five percent) were in custody for weapons violations;
378 (approximately two percent) were in custody for violent crimes;
745 (approximately four percent) in custody were material witnesses.

Immigration Status of All Convicted Aliens Incarcerated in State Prisons and Local Detention Centers Throughout the United States

Some state and local jurisdictions already take proactive measures to make this data available to the public. For example, the Texas Department of Public Safety publishes data online regarding criminal alien arrests and convictions. These data do not account for all aliens in the Texas criminal justice system, as they are limited to criminal alien arrestees who have had prior interaction with DHS resulting in the collection of their fingerprints.

As reported by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS), 251,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and April 30, 2018, according to DHS status indicators. These criminal aliens were charged with:

More than 663,000 criminal offenses;
1,351 homicides;
7,156 sexual assaults;
9,938 weapons charges;
79,049 assaults;
18,685 burglaries;
79,900 drug charges;
815 kidnappings;
44,882 thefts;
4,292 robberies.

Additional conviction data can be found in the report.

The Departments continue to progress towards establishing data collection of the immigration status of convicted aliens incarcerated in state prisons and local detention centers through the Department of Justice’s Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics and the Department of Homeland Security’s Office of Immigration Statistics.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/departments-justice-and-homeland-security-release-quarterly-alien-incarceration-report

[Zippyjuan]

SO most of the illegal immigrants are in jail for being illegal immigrants- not for other crimes- according to the article.


Of the 19,688 confirmed aliens in USMS custody, 10,971 (56 percent) were in custody for an immigration related offense.

[Swordsmyth]

Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's.
What is mine is not Ceasar's, I will give Ceasar everything that is his.

[Swordsmyth]

SO most of the illegal immigrants are in jail for being illegal immigrants- not for other crimes- according to the article.
Invasion is a crime.

[Zippyjuan]

Invasion is a crime.

According to your internet guidebook, that is one of the phrases you are supposed to use. When in doubt or lacking data, toss out important key words which stir up emotions.

[Anti Federalist]

What is mine is not Ceasar's, I will give Ceasar everything that is his.

That's the Bolshevik trap we find ourselves in.

What does not belong to Caesar today?

I can not think of anything that is outside his control, demands, fatwas, oversight, rules or outright ownership.

[Swordsmyth]

According to your internet guidebook, that is one of the phrases you are supposed to use.
According to any HONEST person.

[Anti Federalist]

According to your internet guidebook, that is one of the phrases you are supposed to use. When in doubt or lacking data, toss out important key words which stir up emotions.

I don't have that guidebook.

I guess that's why I don't say it's a crime.

It is, in fact, an act of war.

[Zippyjuan]

What is mine is not Ceasar's, I will give Ceasar everything that is his.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13&version=NIV


Romans 13 New International Version

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

[Anti Federalist]

It was not metaphorical. It was very literal and real, and the original audience of those words took them very seriously, and did follow him in suffering much persecution, including in some cases the death penalty.

Which is why I am opposed to importing millions of people that support that persecution or support the establishment of law that carry out that persecution.

[Swordsmyth]

That's the Bolshevik trap we find ourselves in.

What does not belong to Caesar today?

I can not think of anything that is outside his control, demands, fatwas, oversight, rules or outright ownership.

What Ceasar steals doesn't become his just because he takes it.
It is a very difficult question what does belong to Ceasar.
The anarchists will claim that nothing belongs to Ceasar but there are legitimate functions of government and Christ did tell Peter to give the coin from the fish to the taxman.

[ATruepatriot]

SO most of the illegal immigrants are in jail for being illegal immigrants- not for other crimes- according to the article.

Good try, don't play ignorant and twist it.

"USMS" U.S. Marshal's Service, they only deal with serious offenders like cartel human traffickers not the lightweight victims they smuggled here. That is the job of ice and the border patrol. If the Marshal's service has them they are serious criminals, they don't have time to deal with the small stuff. And once again I think you knew that but trying to blow smoke again.

[RJB]

Socialism is actually very Christian.
I am not referring to everyone who is for mass migration, but...

Actually, this is a very telling post and the motivation behind many proponents of open borders. I have seen very anti-liberty socialists twist the intention of liberty principles to use against us and to turn our country socialists. I've known socialists who hate Christianity, but twist it to use against us to again make us socialists.

I used to be pretty much for open borders, but anyone who thinks we can keep what we have by importing people who will vote for an armed force who will turn the country into a Venezuela, vote against 2nd A, etc. might as well kiss the boots of an invading army.

+Rep for Zippy's honest opinion despite that I believe socialism is an antithesis of Christianity.

[Swordsmyth]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13&version=NIV
That describes theoretical government and its place in society, it does not say that anything any given government does is just nor that Ceasar owns everything.

[Anti Federalist]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13&version=NIV

Ah, good old Romans 13.

The Tyrant's Favorite Scripture.

[Swordsmyth]

I am not referring to everyone who is for mass migration, but...

Actually, this is a very telling post and the motivation behind many proponents of open borders. I have seen very anti-liberty socialists twist the intention of liberty principles to use against us and to turn our country socialists. I've known socialist who hate Christianity, but twist it to use against us to again make us socialists.

I used to be pretty much for open borders, but anyone who thinks we can keep what we have by importing people who will vote for an armed force who will turn the country into a Venezuela, vote against 2nd A, etc. might as well kiss the feet of an invading army.

+Rep for Zippy's honesty.
His dishonest "honesty"?
I suppose it is honest of him to admit that he supports socialism but it is quite dishonest to claim that it is Christian.

[Zippyjuan]

Good try, don't play ignorant and twist it.

"USMS" U.S. Marshal's Service, they only deal with serious offenders like cartel human traffickers not the lightweight victims they smuggled here. That is the job of ice and the border patrol. If the Marshal's service has them they are serious criminals, they don't have time to deal with the small stuff. And once again I think you knew that but trying to blow smoke again.

You provided the data. Is your data wrong?

https://americanmediainstitute.com/investigations/analysis-immigrants-take-big-bite-us-marshals-custody-resources/


But Marshals Service statistics, obtained after a Freedom of Information Act request, show that crimes stemming from illegal immigration are a vast majority of charged offenses in the border regions.

In those border districts, four crimes – illegal entry, false citizenship, smuggling aliens and general immigration violations – amounted to 69 percent of all violations over the past five years, an AMI analysis of the data shows. In West Texas, for example, immigration-related charges made up more than 75 percent of the total in each year between 2012 and 2015, while in Southern California those offenses averaged 41 percent of all the charges since 2011.

70% of the charges filed by US Marshals were immigration related.

[RJB]

His dishonest "honesty"?
I suppose it is honest of him to admit that he supports socialism but it is quite dishonest to claim that it is Christian.
I will rephrase it. Yes what he said was dishonest, but I think it was his honest point of view. He practically never speaks his mind. I doubt that he will let it slip again unless his job description has changed.

[Anti Federalist]

might as well kiss the feet of an invading army.

That is precisely what the Suicide Christians want you to do.

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/03/25/09/pope-francis-1.jpg?w968h681

https://lucien0maverick.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/so-sorry-3.jpg?w=500

[ATruepatriot]

You provided the data. Is your data wrong?

https://americanmediainstitute.com/investigations/analysis-immigrants-take-big-bite-us-marshals-custody-resources/



70% of the charges filed by US Marshals were immigration related.

Not "immigration", "Illegal" Immigration, a crime.

[Brian4Liberty]

This sounds very sensible and logical. It is almost like having standards set to get a job or to enter a particular college or field. I became a nurse at almost 50. Went to a tech school and got an LPN. I was going to go for RN but decided against it. When I went to LPN school I never opened a book and received high 90's in all classes. Some people in the group struggled/failed on every test. They curve the grades so those people can pass. RN college has limited space. The nearest community college only has like 118 students accepted. The sad thing is only 20% are accepted based on their grades. They let 80% into the program that are stupid on a lottery system, to make things fair. The argument with your idea will be that immigration should not only be for the rich.

Pathetic, but predictable. And (fully) government run healthcare will be worse by far.

[RJB]

That is precisely what the Suicide Christians want you to do.



As I said in my posts, socialists will twist liberty principles against us. And even the devil will quote scripture to subjugate us.

BTW, I don't think Zippy is the devil :)

[Brian4Liberty]

The poll has too many issues being forced into a single answer.

The following areas are separate issues that must be addressed. There could be a poll on each.

- Border security. Should it be secure or just a line on the map?
- Tourists, travelers, business trips, etc. If entry is controlled, how many should be allowed, and what types of restrictions?
- Temporary work visas. How many, what types, terms and conditions?
- Refugees. How many, based on what criteria, are they temporary or permanent?
- Immigration. Green cards, permanent residence, chain immigration, etc. How many, what terms and conditions?

[Swordsmyth]

The poll has too many issues being forced into a single answer.

The following areas are separate issues that must be addressed. There could be a poll on each.

- Border security. Should it be secure or just a line on the map?
- Tourists, travelers, business trips, etc. If entry is controlled, how many should be allowed, and what types of restrictions?
- Temporary work visas. How many, what types, terms and conditions?
- Refugees. How many, based on what criteria, are they temporary or permanent?
- Immigration. Green cards, permanent residence, chain immigration, etc. How many, what terms and conditions?
I made a multiple choice version:

Another immigration poll (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?533436-Another-immigration-poll)

[nobody's_hero]

Where is that in the Bible?



https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A6-7&version=ESV

(the Bible has mixed messages on taxes and tax collectors)

Yeah, "to who it is owed."

If you aren't owed anything, and it is given to you, that's called charity. If you aren't owed anything, and it is taken from others, that is socialism.

[RJB]

The poll has too many issues being forced into a single answer.

The following areas are separate issues that must be addressed. There could be a poll on each.

- Border security. Should it be secure or just a line on the map?
- Tourists, travelers, business trips, etc. If entry is controlled, how many should be allowed, and what types of restrictions?
- Temporary work visas. How many, what types, terms and conditions?
- Refugees. How many, based on what criteria, are they temporary or permanent?
- Immigration. Green cards, permanent residence, chain immigration, etc. How many, what terms and conditions?

I agree. I didn't vote in this poll. PAF actually changed my mind about a border wall. I canoed the Rio Grande. I camped, ate, and made friends on either side of the border. A wall there is ridiculous imo. Between San Diego and Tijuana, it definitely serves a purpose. I don't mind migration too much.

However bringing in millions of voters to change the foundations of who we are (socialism, free speech, gun rights, etc.) is my big issue. Many in the DNC open say this.

[RJB]

I answered this much earlier. Then you edited and added much more.




Then you should likewise leave others alone the same way you want to be left alone.

I do leave others alone. If they want Sharia Law or socialism in Venezuela or Afganistan, I am all for it their endeavor to their Utopia. I am against bombing and sanctioning those countries.




Notice how you say "threaten." Immigration and non-assimilation in themselves don't violate anyone's rights. And not all who immigrate without assimilating to whatever it is you want the government to require them to assimilate to (somehow all without ruling over them?) do the things you mean by excess crime. But you want to preempt future violations of rights by stopping people from doing acts that in themselves aren't violations of rights as some kind of pre-crime enforcement.


Come on man. Precrime? There is no crime if someone wants a socialist Venezuela. They just shouldn't expect to move here and mess up my country. Should we not have kicked out the British? Should we not have driven out the Tories? Polls show immigrants want the US to be more socislist, gun free, "hate speech" free etc. They are free to do that somewhere else.

You never answered my question that I asked you at least three times:. What is the difference between an invading army that wants to violently disarm me from immigrants who want to vote to have an army violently disarm me. I used to be more aligned to your thinking until I saw the polls as to how people vote on issues. Tell me the difference.

This is to do what Jesus told his followers not to do in Matthew 20:25-26. ok? You quoted a Bible verse that has nothing to do with the discussion?

[Anti Federalist]

Socialism is actually very Christian.

Pete Buttplug agrees.

Pete Buttigieg: Christianity Does Not Belong to the Right — Scripture Is Progressive

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2019/04/17/pete-buttigieg-christianity-does-not-belong-to-the-right-scripture-is-progressive/

PAM KEY 17 Apr 2019

In an interview with “Now This News” South Bend, IN Mayor Pete Buttigieg, a likely 2020 Democratic presidential candidate said Christianity does not belong to the “right wing.”

Buttigieg said, “I don’t think religion belongs to one political party. When I go to church, the scripture I hear has to do with protecting the poor, and spending time with the prisoner, and healing the sick, and caring for the stranger which to me is another word for immigrant. It has a very clear set of moral and policy implications none of which are things I would associate with the right wing.”

He continued, “Christianity to me is about humility, it’s about love. If we want to put those values into political practice at least by my lights, they lead us in a very progressive direction.”

[nobody's_hero]

Ultimately I voted for a quota system but it would have to be extremely limited at this point because there's not much left of original American ideals for people to assimilate into slowly. By the standards I would recommend, most Americans wouldn't be allowed in if they weren't already here.

[Swordsmyth]

Enterovirus D68, which has previously been identified as highly active in Central America, is found to be the cause of Acute Flaccid Myelitis. (https://outline.com/WTkEZ4) Which shows up and peaks every two years, just as our elections are happening.

[Zippyjuan]

Enterovirus D68, which has previously been identified as highly active in Central America, is found to be the cause of Acute Flaccid Myelitis. (https://outline.com/WTkEZ4) Which shows up and peaks every two years, just as our elections are happening.

Link says nothing about immigrants or Central Americans. Fear mongering. It is extremely rare.

[Swordsmyth]

Link says nothing about immigrants or Central Americans. Fear mongering. It is extremely rare.

The Enterovirus D68 that is spreading among children across the U.S. particularly in the Midwest. The mysterious disease has been known to afflict (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/092614-719288-a-new-border-surge-opens-us-to-a-new-wave-of-diseases.htm?p=2) Central America in the past.
Until recently the occurrence of EV-D68 was rare in the United States. Between 1970 and 2005 only 26 clinical isolates of EV-D68 were reported (http://vir.sgmjournals.org/content/93/Pt_9/1952.full) in the USA. Over the years, clusters have been reported in (http://www.alipac.us/f19/cdc-official-virus-hitting-midwest-could-tip-iceberg-310570/) Georgia, Pennsylvania, Arizona and various countries.

More at: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/10/deadly-enterovirus-d68-sweeping-across-us-exists-in-central-america/



There is also a new virus known as Enterovirus D68 that is spreading among children across the U.S. It, too, has been known to afflict Central America in the past.
All of this raises the possibility that in throwing open our border for political purposes, the U.S. is exposing itself to a host of nasty diseases and epidemics.
Dr. Jane Orient, Executive Director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, told radio host Laura Ingraham last week the Obama administration has been "real tight-lipped" about EV-D68's origins.
"We don't know where it's coming from ... are there immigrants from Central America, where this disease has allegedly been prevalent before? Should we be (studying) the virus to see whether it's like what's been found in some of these countries that are just sending waves of children across our border and they haven't been quarantined long enough to make sure they're not sick?" she asked.


More at: https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/a-new-border-surge-opens-us-to-a-new-wave-of-diseases/



The deadly enterovirus D68 that is srapidly spreading across the county was first identified in cities with large numbers of relocated illegal immigrant children.

via Sharyl Attkisson (http://sharylattkisson.com/polio-like-outbreak-claims-fifth-life-in-u-s):

Enteroviruses commonly circulate in the U.S. during summer and fall. EV-D68 was first identified in California in 1962. Over the past thirty years, only small numbers were reported in the U.S.
The CDC hasn’t suggested reasons for the current uptick or its origin. Without that answer, some question whether the disease is being spread by the presence of tens of thousands of illegal immigrant children from Central America admitted to the U.S. in the past year.
The origin could be entirely unrelated.
However, a study published in Virology Journal (http://www.virologyj.com/content/10/1/305), found EV-D68 among some of the 3,375 young, ill people tested in eight Latin American countries, including the Central American nations of El Salvador and Nicaragua, in 2013. (See Fig. 3) Though the U.S. government is keeping secret the locations of the illegal immigrant children, there are significant numbers of them in both cities in which the current outbreak was first identified, Kansas City, Missouri and Chicago, Illinois, according to local advocates and press reports.


More at: https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/bombshell-claim-deadly-enterovirus-d68-first-identified-in-cities-that-have-one-significant-thing-in-common

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

There should be a moratorium on net immigration for at least ten years, and around twenty-five would be a better idea. Immigration from third world countries should be heavily limited, with migrants from Western countries given preference over non-Western peoples. In addition to vetting for criminals, there should be some sort of ideological screening to try and make sure the people coming in are compatible with Anglo-American law and culture. English speakers only. Open radicals like communists, fascists or Islamists should not be allowed to immigrate to the US. Chain migration must also end immediately.

Any illegal immigrant with either a criminal record or association with leftist politics must be deported immediately. Illegals who have been consistently employed and have taken no form of welfare are allowed to take a test to put themselves on a pathway to citizenship, but failure of said test results in deportation, with possible preferential treatment for future work visas if they want to apply.

[Zippyjuan]

The CDC hasn’t suggested reasons for the current uptick or its origin. Without that answer, some question whether the disease is being spread by the presence of tens of thousands of illegal immigrant children from Central America admitted to the U.S. in the past year.
The origin could be entirely unrelated.

There were also rises in cases in 2012 and 2014 when there was no wave of immigration. It is extremely rare.


told radio host Laura Ingraham last week the Obama administration has been "real tight-lipped" about EV-D68's origins.


Well, if expert epidemiologist Laura Ingraham says it is true.....

The study in the link https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-10-305

does not look at cases of acute flaccid myelitis. They did find two kids with EV-D68 out of nearly 4,000 sampled.

[Swordsmyth]

There were also rises in cases in 2012 and 2014 when there was no wave of immigration. It is extremely rare.



Well, if expert epidemiologist Laura Ingraham says it is true.....

You missed this part:

However, a study published in Virology Journal (http://www.virologyj.com/content/10/1/305), found EV-D68 among some of the 3,375 young, ill people tested in eight Latin American countries, including the Central American nations of El Salvador and Nicaragua, in 2013.

[Swordsmyth]

There were also rises in cases in 2012 and 2014 when there was no wave of immigration. It is extremely rare.

More election years, and there are always illegals coming here because border security is so poor.

[Zippyjuan]

You missed this part:

However, a study published in Virology Journal (http://www.virologyj.com/content/10/1/305), found EV-D68 among some of the 3,375 young, ill people tested in eight Latin American countries, including the Central American nations of El Salvador and Nicaragua, in 2013.

Post updated. They found EV-D68 in two kids out of nearly 4,000 sampled. In Peru- not a major US immigration source.


both from the department of Tumbes, Peru, although from different cities.

Fear mongering.

[Swordsmyth]

Post updated. They found EV-D68 in two kids out of nearly 4,000 sampled. In Peru- not a major US immigration source.



Fear mongering.
10

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1743-422X-10-305/MediaObjects/12985_2013_Article_2299_Fig3_HTML.jpg


It's not fearmongering to point out that a rare disease from central America just happens to show up in America every election year.

[Swordsmyth]

Post updated. They found EV-D68 in two kids out of nearly 4,000 sampled. In Peru- not a major US immigration source.



Fear mongering.

Not just Peru:

From September 2010 to September 2011, in collaboration with eight Central and South American countries’ ILI passive surveillance networks (Nicaragua, El Salvador, Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Paraguay and Argentina; Figure 1 (https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-10-305#Fig1)), nasopharyngeal swabs were collected from 3,375 subjects with ILI presenting to outpatient medical clinics in 21 cities

[Zippyjuan]

10


It's not fearmongering to point out that a rare disease from central America just happens to show up in America every election year.

Must be the politicians. They come around every election year. (and ten is still extremely rare).

[Zippyjuan]

Not just Peru:

From September 2010 to September 2011, in collaboration with eight Central and South American countries’ ILI passive surveillance networks (Nicaragua, El Salvador, Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Paraguay and Argentina; Figure 1 (https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-422X-10-305#Fig1)), nasopharyngeal swabs were collected from 3,375 subjects with ILI presenting to outpatient medical clinics in 21 cities

Those are the countries they tested people- not where they found the EV-D68. (I note you un-highlighted Peru in your list)

[Swordsmyth]

Must be the politicians. They come around every election year. (and ten is still extremely rare).
It must be the illegal voters and since it is so rare the fact that it shows up in the US at all indicates that there must be an awful lot of them.

[Swordsmyth]

Those are the countries they tested people- not where they found the EV-D68.
It didn't specify that the 10 were found in Peru.

[Zippyjuan]

It didn't specify that the 10 were found in Peru.

Where were they found?

[Swordsmyth]

Where were they found?

You tell me, all we know is the countries the testing took place in.

[Swordsmyth]

Illegal Migrants Come Here as Ready-made Democrats — Here’s Why (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?533542-Illegal-Migrants-Come-Here-as-Ready-made-Democrats-—-Here’s-Why)

[Pauls' Revere]

Or we could go with the old Swiss model of immigration where the people in a particular town review a person's request to immigrate and decide whether or not they get to come and stay.

Could you imagine? Local control over immigration? Like sanctuary cities?

[Superfluous Man]

Or we could go with the old Swiss model of immigration where the people in a particular town review a person's request to immigrate and decide whether or not they get to come and stay.

I like this idea.

Or even take it further than that, down to the level of each individual sovereign property owner.

[Pauls' Revere]

Or we could go with the old Swiss model of immigration where the people in a particular town review a person's request to immigrate and decide whether or not they get to come and stay.

Like cities deciding if they want to be sanctuary cities or not.

[Zippyjuan]

Or you could let big government protect you and make all of your decisions for you. Now that would be Liberty!

[Swordsmyth]

I like this idea.

Or even take it further than that, down to the level of each individual sovereign property owner.


Like cities deciding if they want to be sanctuary cities or not.

The Swiss do not allow people or towns to allow in people who the country at large do not want, they are not stupid, they allow them to veto people who otherwise would have been allowed in.

Cities or individuals can set their own immigration policy when they secede so that their policy doesn't destroy my liberty and not before, they will however become foreigners and require permission to enter my country themselves.

[Swordsmyth]

Or you could let big government protect you and make all of your decisions for you. Now that would be Liberty!
That is exactly what the invaders will impose on us:

Illegal Migrants Come Here as Ready-made Democrats — Here’s Why (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?533542-Illegal-Migrants-Come-Here-as-Ready-made-Democrats-—-Here’s-Why)

[Swordsmyth]

Socialism is actually very Christian.


As I said in my posts, socialists will twist liberty principles against us. And even the devil will quote scripture to subjugate us.

BTW, I don't think Zippy is the devil :)

'Jesus Was A Socialist,' Says Man Who's Obviously Never Been Within 10 Feet Of A Bible (https://babylonbee.com/news/jesus-was-a-socialist-says-man-whos-obviously-never-been-within-10-feet-of-a-bible)

[TheTexan]

I'll just assume the 4 people who voted for "No limits at all 24/7 open borders" are just trolling/joking.

They probably really would have voted for something more reasonable, like the currently winning option "Closed border, think Berlin Wall or DMZ, guns and mines unlimited deterrents"

[PAF]

This makes me think of Chad Elwartowski and Seasteading.

Until the tone changes among the American people, certainly starting with this so-called "liberty" forum turned completely STATIST, the government will continue to impose more and more anti-liberty regulations and restrictions.

It is nobody's business whether one is employed or not, or where to travel.

If a person chooses to travel freely, there should be NO "documentation" papers please, or permission from you, others or government goons.

If you "see something say something" is what many here are promoting, at force by gun, prison, turn around and get out against ones will.

The tone needs to change to eliminate free handouts/welfare, and ONLY convict when an actual crime against others or private property has occurred. This does NOT include manufactured ordinances and regulations to feed the state and line the extortionists pockets.

The FED/Gov has NO right to own public or private land, or even control it; unused land should be homesteaded, the same way Chad attempted to do out in the open seas.

You don't want to shell out free handouts/incentives/welfare? Then start working locally toward that goal. Excuses will NEVER solve the problem or lead to more freedom.

[Anti Federalist]

The tone needs to change to eliminate free handouts/welfare.

I'm all for it.

But why I am being told that cannot be done either?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?533571-New-HUD-rule-prevents-illegals-from-getting-public-housing-assistance

You open borders guys need to all get on the same page.


The FED/Gov has NO right to own public or private land, or even control it; unused land should be homesteaded, the same way Chad attempted to do out in the open seas.

This wasn't the US, it was Thailand. Now if they enact anti seasteading policies, what should be done? Bomb them?

To tell you the honest truth, I can think of a number places on the US coast where he probably would have been successful.

At the very least, the US Coast Guard would not have been threatening him with the death penalty.

That's how upside down this whole idiotic open borders movement has become, where you've got me defending US cops as being relatively level headed.

[nikcers]

Obviously people will need to pay an arm and a leg to come here illegally otherwise they will just keep coming here. Therefore if you take the arm and leg from them and send them back they won't have any way to walk here again.

[Zippyjuan]

Obviously people will need to pay an arm and a leg to come here illegally otherwise they will just keep coming here. Therefore if you take the arm and leg from them and send them back they won't have any way to walk here again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

[ATruepatriot]

I'm all for it.

But why I am being told that cannot be done either?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?533571-New-HUD-rule-prevents-illegals-from-getting-public-housing-assistance

You open borders guys need to all get on the same page.

Disingenuous Purism. While touting open borders in the spirit of Ron Paul... "What would Ron Paul do?" Exactly... What would he do? They want their cake and eat it too and it is completely economically unsustainable. First and foremost Ron Paul is an economist who's ideology is based on REALITY.

[nikcers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

Everyone grab your MAGA hat's and swords and meet me at the roller skating rink.