Capitalism vs Socialism vs our free enterprise system. What is your choice?

[johnwk]

For distinctions between our system, as intended by our Founders, and “Capitalism”, see: PART TWO: Free Enterprise is Better than
Capitalism (http://oliverdemille.com/part-2-free-enterprise-capitalism/) The following descriptions of “Capitalism” and “Free Enterprise” are noted as follows:


Capitalism (crony capitalism) : A system where the law encourages market forces and also gives preference and special benefits to the sector of the economy owned by big capital—including big corporations like in Corporatism, but also wealthy foreign and multinational corporations, and highly influential non-corporate institutions such as rich foundations, moneyed trusts, political parties, well-funded lobbies and special interest groups, affluent non-profit entities, wealthy families, moneyed foreign investors, and others with large amounts of capital. Under this system, the rich rule society, and they naturally influence government to maintain policies that benefit the rich more than others.


Free Enterprise: A system where the law encourages market forces and gives no special preferences; it protects equal rights for all individuals and entities and leaves initiative and enterprise to private individuals, groups, businesses and organizations that are all treated equally and with minimal legislation by the legal code.


Today we have capitalism being practiced in the United States instead of a free enterprise free market system. Obama engaged in capitalism under the guise of “green energy”, and 85 % of green energy capital supplied by the federal government went to Obama’s donors.


President Bush and the Republicans practiced capitalism when they passed the farm subsidy bill in 2008.


Under a free enterprise/free market system, as our founders intended, no preferential treatment is to be expected while the inalienable right of people being free to mutually agree in their contracts and associations would be a primary priority of government.


Under Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s and Bernie Sanders’ form of capitalism, the distribution of capital from our federal treasury would continue and simply create different privileged classes, and preferential treatment would remain the order of the day.


But under a free enterprise/free market system, as our founders intended, no preferential treatment is to be expected while the inalienable right of people being free to mutually agree in their contracts and associations would be a primary priority of government.



Fox News Channel personalities need to stop referring to our system as capitalism.



JWK



The Federal Reserve System of 1913 and the Sixteenth Amendment, also of 1913, have spread the evil tentacles of crony capitalism into almost every corner of our once free market, free enterprise system.

[nikcers]

No one chooses the Maduro diet, the others that outnumber you choose it for you.

[kcchiefs6465]

In the way you've described them, a free enterprise system.

Capitalism is not the definition you've phrased above.

I'm not sure if it's because of how 'toxic' the word "capitalist" has become but I sure enjoy referring to myself as a capitalist. Especially to a democratic communist.

[johnwk]

In the way you've described them, a free enterprise system.

Capitalism is not the definition you've phrased above.

I'm not sure if it's because of how 'toxic' the word "capitalist" has become but I sure enjoy referring to myself as a capitalist. Especially to a democratic communist.



Do you approve of capital from our federal treasury being distributed and "invested" by Congress to advance industry and manufacturing?



JWK

[kcchiefs6465]

Do you approve of capital from our federal treasury being distributed and "invested" by Congress to advance industry and manufacturing?



JWK
No. I'm not a communist.

[Anti Globalist]

Free enterprise system.

[johnwk]

Free enterprise system.

Once free enterprise system.



JWK

Do you really want single payer government operated health-care? Move into public housing [the projects in East Harlem or the South Bronx], live there for a year, and then make your decision about government run healthcare.

[acptulsa]

[B]Capitalism (crony capitalism)

Capitalism is not the same thing as crony capitalism. In fact, crony capitaliam is closer to fascism than capitalism. I'm not sure why you want to let the socialists have their way and misdefine this word, but I've had some luck explaining to them why what they were taught is capitalism is actually fascism. That helps them question their brainwashing.


Today we have capitalism being practiced in the United States instead of a free enterprise free market system.

Fox News Channel personalities need to stop referring to our system as capitalism.

Make up your mind already.

[juleswin]

I don't like thin crust pizza, so I am not a communist :)

[kona]

Capitalism IS the Free Enterprise system. You are not describing capitalism, which this country hasn't seen in centuries. You are describing fascism, corporatism, globalism, all of which are crony capitalist, meaning not capitalist at all.

[johnwk]

Capitalism is not the same thing as crony capitalism. In fact, crony capitaliam is closer to fascism than capitalism. I'm not sure why you want to let the socialists have their way and misdefine this word, but I've had some luck explaining to them why what they were taught is capitalism is actually fascism. That helps them question their brainwashing.
I get the distinct impression you despise and reject using “free” enterprise, and “free” market, to describe our system. Why?

Tell me, what was it called when federal capital was used to advance Obama’s green energy money laundering operation?

What was it called when the Republicans doled out federal capital from our federal treasury to finance the farm subsidy bill in 2008.

And what do you call Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s and Bernie Sanders’ form of capitalism, which promises to use federal capital from our federal treasury to advance their goals, which simply creates different privileged classes and preferential treatment would continue under their form of capitalism, by which I mean the investment of capital to advance a goal?


The truth is, the word capitalist was unknown to our founders and it was popularized by Karl Marks to attack the free market, free enterprise system our founders intended to protect with a written constitution. He used the term 2600 times in the trilogy Das Kapital

I believe using “free” market and “free” enterprise to describe our intended system is more descriptive than using the elusive terms “capitalism” and “capitalist”. Why do you protest so?



But see: The Sad Decline Of The Word “Capitalism” (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alejandrochafuen/2013/05/01/the-sad-decline-of-the-word-capitalism/#42260468a712)

Like Klaus, I am not fond of giving up on battles and although I seldom use the word, I still like the concept of “capitalism” to describe some aspects of the economic system. I sometimes even wear a tie that Steve Forbes gave me with the inscription “capitalist tool.”Should we care if we lose the term capitalism? Assessing its popularity, or lack thereof, I recently reviewed the mission of 25 leading market oriented think tanks (http://www.chafuen.com/balticrules/think-tank-mission-statements) around the globe. I could not find a single one using the term. “Free enterprise,” “free-markets” “free-economy” and better yet “free society” will continue to crowd out “capitalism,” if not as a system, at least as a word.


JWK
The Federal Reserve System of 1913 and the Sixteenth Amendment, also of 1913, have spread the evil tentacles of crony capitalism into almost every corner of our once free market, free enterprise system.

[acptulsa]

I get the distinct impression you despise and reject using “free” enterprise, and “free” market, to describe our system.

I hate and despise letting the propagandists take over the English language word by word and misdefine them all, so people can't talk to each other any more and the kids can't even think properly.

It even seems to be working on you. One second you're saying America now does crony capitalism, not free enterprise, and then you say Fox should deny that America does capitalism.

I love the term free enterprise. Never said I didn't. Saying I don't when I never said a thing about the phrase--only said I'm sick of propagandists changing the meaning of perfectly good words--is awfully close to tactics applied by the left. My advice is, don't be paranoid.

[Superfluous Man]

Why combine capitalism and crony capitalism like that, as if the word "capitalism" only refers to crony capitalism?

Obviously, if we restored a free enterprise system, it would still qualify as capitalism.

[shakey1]

Maybe this should be a poll? :confused:

[Ender]

Why combine capitalism and crony capitalism like that, as if the word "capitalism" only refers to crony capitalism?

Obviously, if we restored a free enterprise system, it would still qualify as capitalism.

Yep.

I've been saying this for years: REAL Capitalism is freedom- the word has been distorted & stolen to make capitalism sound baaaaaad.

[Philhelm]

It depends, since I think we would need to solve the immigration problem.

[johnwk]

I hate and despise letting the propagandists take over the English language word by word and misdefine them all, so people can't talk to each other any more and the kids can't even think properly.

It even seems to be working on you. One second you're saying America now does crony capitalism, not free enterprise, and then you say Fox should deny that America does capitalism.

I love the term free enterprise. Never said I didn't. Saying I don't when I never said a thing about the phrase--only said I'm sick of propagandists changing the meaning of perfectly good words--is awfully close to tactics applied by the left. My advice is, don't be paranoid.
I too reject propagandists co-opting words and altering their meaning such as our homosexual crowd’s use of the word “gay” , or the sexual pervert crowd using LSDG or whatever the hell they are now using to hide what they really are … sexual deviants!

But with reference to capitalist, a word never used by our founders, its meaning generally indicates the investment of money to accomplish an industrial or manufacturing end, and it can occur by the hand of government and/or the hand of private citizens. Karl Marx popularized the word “capitalist” and “capitalist mode of production”, which appear more than 2600 times in the trilogy “Das Kapital” . LINK (https://www.quora.com/Who-coined-the-word-capitalism-and-what-did-he-she-mean-by-it)

On the other hand our Founder’s often describe our system in a manner promoting a “free” market, “free” trade, or “free” enterprise ___ “free” being the operative word. For example see Thomas Jefferson’s First Annual Message to Congress (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/jeffmes1.asp):

”Agriculture, manufactures, commerce, and navigation, the four pillars of our prosperity, are the most thriving when left most free to individual enterprise.”

Now, in reference to your comment about crony capitalism, it is irrefutable that it is being practiced by our government, and in defiance of the terms of our Constitution which was designed to protect a free enterprise, free market system.

Capitalism was used by Obama in his green energy money laundering scheme. It was also used by Bush in the farm subsidy crap. And these are just two examples of the thousands of ways our federal government is doling out “capital” from our federal treasury to allegedly accomplish industrial and manufacturing goals.

But, under the free enterprise/free market system, which our founders intended to protect with a written Constitution, no preferential treatment is to be expected by the hand of government, i.e., no capital investments in private enterprise are to be made, while the inalienable right of people being free to mutually agree in their contracts and associations is to be a primary priority of government.

Is it not a fact that our federal government is practicing capitalism, and in doing so it is in defiance of a free market, free enterprise system our founders intended to protect? Should Fox News personalities not promote our free market, free enterprise system in distinction of capitalism being practiced by our federal government?

JWK

The Federal Reserve System of 1913 and the Sixteenth Amendment, also of 1913, have spread the evil tentacles of federal crony capitalism into almost every corner of our once free market, free enterprise system

[Superfluous Man]

But with reference to capitalist, a word never used by our founders

You are mixing up the use of the word "capitalism" with the thing itself. Just because the word "capitalism" wasn't yet in use with the meaning that it later came to have, that doesn't mean that the thing the word came to denote didn't exist yet.

That said, the word "capitalist" in the sense of an owner of capital was in use in the 18th century. I wonder how you can say so confidently that none of the founders ever used the word. Do you have a searchable database of all their writings?

[johnwk]

You are mixing up the use of the word "capitalism" with the thing itself. Just because the word "capitalism" wasn't yet in use with the meaning that it later came to have, that doesn't mean that the thing the word came to denote didn't exist yet.

That said, the word "capitalist" in the sense of an owner of capital was in use in the 18th century. I wonder how you can say so confidently that none of the founders ever used the word. Do you have a searchable database of all their writings?


If you had followed my link instead of attempting to muddy the waters you would have seen:



In French, Étienne Clavier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tienne_Clavier) referred to capitalistes
in 1788,[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-39) six years before its first recorded English usage by Arthur Young (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Young_(writer)) in his work Travels in France
(1792).

:rolleyes:

[Superfluous Man]

If you had followed my link instead of attempting to muddy the waters you would have seen:



In French, Étienne Clavier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tienne_Clavier) referred to capitalistes
in 1788,[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#cite_note-39) six years before its first recorded English usage by Arthur Young (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Young_(writer)) in his work Travels in France
(1792).

:rolleyes:

I don't see what your point is or how that relates to my previous comment.

[johnwk]

I don't see what your point is or how that relates to my previous comment.

Perhaps you should read it very slowly, and then read the question you posted to me.

I am one of the few who have actually read our constitution's framing and ratification debates, in addition to reviewing many contemporary writings of our founders. And I never came across their use of the words "capitalist" or "capitalism". The link and quote I provided is prima fascia evidence supporting my conclusion. Do you have a quote from one of our founding fathers to the contrary?


JWK

[Superfluous Man]

Perhaps you should read it very slowly, and then read the question you posted to me.


OK. Done.

It's odd that you refer specifically to the question I posed you, when your reply does not answer that question.


I never came across their use of the words "capitalist" or "capitalism".

Ahhh. OK. Then you should have said, "I have never come across any use of the word 'capitalist' by the founding fathers." That's a very different claim than that they never used the word.


The link and quote I provided is prima fascia evidence supporting my conclusion.

I don't see how that's the case, at least not with respect to the quote you provided (I didn't follow any link and can't even tell now what link you are talking about).

But at least now I know what you were trying to get at.

All this time you were picking at the secondary point in the post you quoted, and not the main one, which was that your entire argument is based on the fallacy of mixing up the development of a word taking on a certain usage with the development of the thing that word denotes. Those are two separate things.

[devil21]

The founders made gold and silver constitutional money for a reason. It is generally how to avoid both fascism and socialism (both are centrally controlled economic models) and ensure a truly free market. As long as the economy is centrally controlled and not based in constitutional hard money, but rather paper and digits, all "isms" will equally suck for the average person.

[Superfluous Man]

Do you have a quote from one of our founding fathers to the contrary?


A quote of any of them using the word "capitalist"?

I didn't have one before now. But since you asked, and since you presumptuously claimed that they never used the word, based on no stronger evidence than merely that you yourself didn't recall seeing them use it, I checked and found some examples. This is what you should have done before making that claim and pretending to know it as a fact.
https://founders.archives.gov/index.xqy?q=capitalist&s=1111211111&sa=&r=1&sr=

I will grant that (as I have already said) they didn't use the word in the sense that it has more recently come to be used. But you claimed that not one of them ever once used it at all, even in its older sense, which, as you can see, some of them did.

[enhanced_deficit]

System that will "Drain the Swamp" would be better.
Socialism of GOP-Likud flavor seems not so attractive.

[johnwk]

A quote of any of them using the word "capitalist"?

I didn't have one before now. But since you asked, and since you presumptuously claimed that they never used the word, based on no stronger evidence than merely that you yourself didn't recall seeing them use it, I checked and found some examples. This is what you should have done before making that claim and pretending to know it as a fact.
https://founders.archives.gov/index.xqy?q=capitalist&s=1111211111&sa=&r=1&sr=

I will grant that (as I have already said) they didn't use the word in the sense that it has more recently come to be used. But you claimed that not one of them ever once used it at all, even in its older sense, which, as you can see, some of them did.

What my claim is, our founders, to the best of my knowledge, have never used the words capitalist or capitalism during the framing and ratification debates of our constitution, nor have I ever come across their using those words to describe our economic system. If you can provide such a quote, please, feel free to post it.

In any event, the more important issue is, and the real subject of the thread is, Capitalism vs Socialism vs our free enterprise system. What is your choice?


Are you still insistent on muddying the waters?

JWK

[Superfluous Man]

What my claim is, our founders, to the best of my knowledge, have never used the words capitalist or capitalism during the framing and ratification debates of our constitution, nor have I ever come across their using those words to describe our economic system.

I appreciate this refinement. You are getting much better at making claims.

We are still left with my more substantive point, though, which is that just because they didn't use the word "capitalism" to describe the economic system they advocated, that doesn't mean that it's not an accurate word to use for that system now that the word has come to take on additional connotations beyond what it had at that time.



In any event, the more important issue is, and the real subject of the thread is, Capitalism vs Socialism vs our free enterprise system. What is your choice?


My choice is the free enterprise system, which is itself capitalism.

[johnwk]

The founders made gold and silver constitutional money for a reason. It is generally how to avoid both fascism and socialism (both are centrally controlled economic models) and ensure a truly free market. As long as the economy is centrally controlled and not based in constitutional hard money, but rather paper and digits, all "isms" will equally suck for the average person.


I agree with you, but add to the mix the Sixteenth Amendment and current taxation which is equally part of our centrally controlled economic system.


JWK

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez claims to be an advocate of hard working people living in the Bronx. If that is so, why is she not advocating an end to the unconstitutional “Temporary Victory Tax” of 1943, which began federal confiscation of the bread which working people have earned by the sweat of their labor?

[johnwk]

We are still left with my more substantive point, though, which is that just because they didn't use the word "capitalism" to describe the economic system they advocated, that doesn't mean that it's not an accurate word to use for that system now that the word has come to take on additional connotations beyond what it had at that time.



My choice is the free enterprise system, which is itself capitalism.


And those who today attack "free enterprise" attack it by referring to "capitalism" which avoids attacking something indicating freedom., such as free enterprise and a free market system, free being the operative word.


JWK

[johnwk]

Free enterprise system.




Capitalism is best described as the investment of capital to realize a profit and sometimes achieve economic goals.

Free enterprise and free markets is best described as people being left free to pursue economic interests as each sees fit and left free to mutually agree in their contracts and associations.


Capitalists have money working for them, while those involved in free enterprise work for their money.


Capitalism gave us Obama’s green energy investment swindle, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Enron, Bernard Madoff, our current student loan crisis and other capital investment schemes, while free enterprise gave us such things as the phone, the model T Ford, mass production, the mom and pop bakery, local plumber, carpenter, electrician and dentist.



JWK



Socialist democrats running for office will promise food on the table, free public housing, health care for all, guaranteed income, free college tuition, and other niceties by taxing the so called rich; and if by chance they ever do get political power because of such promises made, their socialist iron-fisted dependency will enslave the very fools who elected them.

[Anti Federalist]

I didn't wade through all the comments but it seems a rather moot point.

We already live under socialism, by any objective standard.

The "debate" now is whether the new crop of Bolsheviks and Jacobins are going to get enough people to go along with them to the next level: authoritarian Marxism, with all the goodies that come with that: pogroms, genocides and gulags.

Right now it sure looks like it.

[pcosmar]

I get the distinct impression you despise and reject using “free” enterprise, and “free” market, to describe our system. Why?


Because we DO NOT in fact have a Free Market.. nor Free Enterprise. The Free part being missing..

For a very Long time..

I welcome the Free Market,, in the small and limited places it still exists.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Starlight_Mountain_-_vending_area.jpg/800px-Starlight_Mountain_-_vending_area.jpg

https://www.hippieshop.com/mas_assets/full/9499.jpg

[pcosmar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lCMUkqpI7o

[pcosmar]

I didn't wade through all the comments but it seems a rather moot point.

We already live under socialism, by any objective standard.

The "debate" now is whether the new crop of Bolsheviks and Jacobins are going to get enough people to go along with them to the next level: authoritarian Marxism, with all the goodies that come with that: pogroms, genocides and gulags.

Right now it sure looks like it.

Yup,, and have been my entire lifetime.. since about 1913 as best as I can tell,, though Lincoln and the Bankers War set the stage.

I am surprised that so many continue to pretend differently...

Institutionalized is my guess.

[enhanced_deficit]

How about 'mixed economy' with some free stuff, some universal healthcare , some socialism.

Part of Trump's anti-HIV initiative, Federal gov't makes drug "free" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?541612-Part-of-Trump-s-anti-HIV-initiative-Federal-gov-t-makes-drug-quot-free-quot&)

[TheTexan]

How about 'mixed economy' with some free stuff, some universal healthcare , some socialism.

Part of Trump's anti-HIV initiative, Federal gov't makes drug "free" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?541612-Part-of-Trump-s-anti-HIV-initiative-Federal-gov-t-makes-drug-quot-free-quot&)

Some free stuff is good, but more free stuff is better.