The Idaho Abortion Human Rights Act

[Swordsmyth]

Two pro-life constitutionalists in the Idaho state legislature are deadly serious about putting an end to the abortion slaughter in the Gem State. They have thrown down the gauntlet on the abortion issue. Boasting the best voting records in Idaho with the state Constitution are seasoned Representative Heather Scott (https://repheatherscott.com/) and freshman Representative John Green, who are cosponsoring a bill to end the murdering of unborn human beings. Their bill, The Idaho Abortion Human Rights Act, (https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/postregister.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/1f/b1f88bfc-1e7d-11e9-8bcd-4ffd7b6aa198/5c47721d6b943.pdf.pdf) would close loopholes that now exempt abortion from the state’s murder statute.
The Scott-Green bill is in marked contrast to the recently passed legislation in New York permitting pre-natal infanticide up until birth, and in Virginia, where even post-natal infanticide may now be permitted (https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/31365-post-natal-abortion-northam-virginia-is-for-killers). New York Governor Andrew Cuomo sent a shock through the nation in January by signing into law a bill that allows pre-born babies to be killed up to the moment of birth (https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/31365-post-natal-abortion-northam-virginia-is-for-killers).

Cuomo, a Democrat, called it a victory for “our progressive values.” Then he and state legislators celebrated the license-to-kill law by having the spire of the One World Trade Center lit up in pink. Thomas Peters tweeted (https://twitter.com/AmericanPapist/status/1088073163764912128) a night photo of the display, with the apropos comment: “Now it looks just like the needle that is used to supply the lethal injection to the living unborn child.” Virginia Governor Ralph Northam, also a Democrat, upped the ante by declaring that, under new legislation in his state babies could be killed even after birth, (https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/31365-post-natal-abortion-northam-virginia-is-for-killers) though the bill's propoenents say that is not true. The bill has currently been tabled.

Killing Pre-born Babies Is Murder
Section 18-4001 (https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title18/T18CH40/SECT18-4001/) of the Idaho Code defines murder as “the unlawful killing of a human being including, but not limited to, a human embryo or fetus, with malice aforethought or the intentional application of torture to a human being, which results in the death of a human being.” However, other portions of state law permit abortion. Section 18-4016, Idaho Code, specifically exempts doctors performing abortions and the women who request them from being prosecuted for murder.
Representatives Scott and Green are determined to end this injustice. In a press release, they state, “The Idaho Abortion Human Rights Act (https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/postregister.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/1f/b1f88bfc-1e7d-11e9-8bcd-4ffd7b6aa198/5c47721d6b943.pdf.pdf) is a bill honoring Article I, Section 18 of the Idaho Constitution, which states in part that ‘Courts of justice shall be open to every person,’ and ‘right and justice shall be administered without … denial, delay, or prejudice.’”
Separately, Idaho Code 32-102 (https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title32/T32CH1/SECT32-102/) states in part that “a child conceived, but not yet born, is to be deemed an existing person.” The Idaho Abortion Human Rights Act is aimed at the heart of the issue regarding abortion, noting that Article I Section 1 of the Idaho Constitution states, “All men … have certain inalienable rights, among which are enjoying and defending life…and securing safety.”
“By allowing legal access to abortion in Idaho statutes, Idaho is currently alienating what are supposed to be the inalienable rights of all persons in the jurisdiction of Idaho,” say Scott and Green. “The act also strikes at the core of the abortion issue as to why abortion is wrong, that it is murder,” says the legislative duo. They go on to remark: “In footnote 54 of the Roe v. Wade (https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/410/113.html) decision, Justice Harry Blackmun, delivering the opinion of the court wrote that Texas’ attempt to argue to the Supreme Court the right to life of the fetus failed because Texas did not itself treat the fetus as a person in its own statutes when it allowed exceptions for abortion and when it did not treat the mother securing the abortion as liable for any crime. The Idaho Abortion Human Rights Act is the first legislative proposal in Idaho since Roe v. Wade, without exceptions, that honors the preborn persons as worthy as the rest of us in regards to fundamental human rights and equal protection under law.”
According to Scott and Green, their bill is not specifically aimed at establishing a court challenge to Roe v. Wade, which “progressives” worship as holy writ. “The act is also not an attempt to establish a test case for federal judicial review,” they say. “ Rather, it recognizes that the courts render opinions that are sometimes unconstitutional and that the State of Idaho and its officers are bound by oath to original interpretation of the constitutions. Idaho, as a sovereign state within the federal republic, has the fundamental duty to act as a check and a balance to the federal government when it errs on constitutional issues. The executive and legislative branches are to act as a check and a balance against unconstitutional errors of the judiciary. In fact, courts don’t make laws, legislatures do.”

More at: https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/31519-idaho-proposal-answers-new-yor-virginia-infanticide-laws-abortion-is-murder

[TheCount]

“a child conceived, but not yet born, is to be deemed an existing person.”

LOL.

I'd love to see this law enacted for the sheer hilarity of it.

[Swordsmyth]

LOL.

I'd love to see this law enacted for the sheer hilarity of it.
I agree, murdering babies is a human right, how could they think of outlawing it?:sarcasm:

[TheCount]

I agree, murdering babies is a human right, how could they think of outlawing it?:sarcasm:

Rendering every fertilized egg a person will have some effects besides just that.

I imagine the police will be quite busy examining every tampon and pad in the state.

[Swordsmyth]

Rendering every fertilized egg a person will have some effects besides just that.

I imagine the police will be quite busy examining every tampon and pad in the state.
:rolleyes:

[TheCount]

:rolleyes:

In vitro fertilization will also have to go; it would be mass murder.

[Swordsmyth]

In vitro fertilization will also have to go; it would be mass murder.
:rolleyes:

[TheCount]

:rolleyes:

I know. Not only are you bad at reading, logic, and politics, you're also bad at medicine. It's fine.

[Swordsmyth]

I know. Not only are you bad at reading, logic, and politics, you're also bad at medicine. It's fine.
You are bad at logic, there is such a thing as human discretion in interpreting the law, we aren't governed by mindless AI just yet.

[TheCount]

You are bad at logic, there is such a thing as human discretion in interpreting the law, we aren't governed by mindless AI just yet.

Do you think that it is or should be legal for a doctor to intentionally kill dozens of people to save one?

[Swordsmyth]

Do you think that it is or should be legal for a doctor to intentionally kill dozens of people to save one?
Why should I answer an obvious trap question that includes none of the important details you intend to spring on me?
You are asking me to behave as if I was an AI not a human.

[TheCount]

Why should I answer an obvious trap question that includes none of the important details you intend to spring on me?
You are asking me to behave as if I was an AI not a human.

When you say 'we have discretion in applying the law' what I actually hear is 'the government gets to decide if they want to kill you, imprison you, or not based on their whims.'

Y'know, the whole 3 felonies a day thing.

[Swordsmyth]

When you say 'we have discretion in applying the law' what I actually hear is 'the government gets to decide if they want to kill you, imprison you, or not based on their whims.'

Y'know, the whole 3 felonies a day thing.
Sure, nobody is ever going to use this law against anyone who didn't deliberately abort a child in the womb, this is an absolute no-brainer, it is not like the kind of vague laws you are comparing it to.
Only an AI could be as stupid as you are pretending people would be.

[TheCount]

Sure, nobody is ever going to use this law against anyone who didn't deliberately abort a child in the womb, this is an absolute no-brainer, it is not like the kind of vague laws you are comparing it to.

That's not what it says. It says that all fertilized eggs are people.

If a mother had an ectopic pregnancy, what would the doctor do? Commit murder, commit murder, or commit negligent manslaughter?



Only an AI could be as stupid as you are pretending people would be.

If the government can just magically enforce or not enforce laws however it pleases, regardless of what the laws say, then why have any laws at all? Just let the government 'human discretion' whenever it's needed.

[Swordsmyth]

That's not what it says. It says that all fertilized eggs are people.

If a mother had an ectopic pregnancy, what would the doctor do? Commit murder, commit murder, or commit negligent manslaughter?
Justifiable Homicide.





If the government can just magically enforce or not enforce laws however it pleases, regardless of what the laws say, then why have any laws at all? Just let the government 'human discretion' whenever it's needed.
Obviously a balance is needed between the two extremes, mindless "zero-tolerance" is actually worse than government by human discretion, the latter can work quite well and did throughout history at times in tribal societies when the leaders were halfway decent but the former is by definition always the same and always bad.

[UWDude]

Euthanizing kittens and puppies and cats and doggies is horrible, we should make it illegal.
And I like Jack Kevorkian. Just saying.
But no tax money should ever be used for abortion. Very wrong, forcing people who believe it wrong, to pay for it.
And, I don't think anybody should be forced to bring a defective child into the world. Including down syndrome.
I know, your heart is big enough in hypothetical land, where your life suddenly ends up revolving around somebody, with no real hope of them leaving the nest. It can happen, bust most of the time, they become wards of the state.
I know it sounds cold-hearted and all, but, let's be real... 5% of the population takes up 85% of the healthcare.
Rape, incest, hell no they do not have to carry to term. Disgusts me to hear it suggested, due to some dogmatic purity of belief.
And of course life of mother. That's a no-brainer, to me.
People always horrified of the realities of reality.
I have met in my life thousands of people, I would be worried about, if they became parents. Jesus.
I mean like juggalo homeless types. All sorts of people, who could simply not handle a kid, and of course, many, too messed up in the head to ever to remember birth control, and everybody eventually fucking everybody else in the community.
Wards of the state by age eight. It's not that we don't want them, but a lot of them become wards for a reason, and are already pretty messed up psychologically.
Sterilization, is a step too far.
There are a lot, and I mean a lot, of people out there very messed up for a lifetime on all sorts of drugs, legal and illicit.

Plus, calling it murder is hyperbole. If it is murder, let's hang the... ...un-mothered? Oh, just the doctors, right? Let's start throwing all the women who had an abortion in prison, because abortion is just like murder. She still "conspired" (always women, IKR!!?!?) with the doctor. I'm sorry, I don't think women who have had abortions, are allowed to even consider themselves murderers. I certainly don't think people can ever judge a woman who has had an abortion as a murderer, even if the law said so. Useless guillt. Is what it is.

That's far different than I think about murder. I find murder to be on a far, far, far more evil level, than abortion. So to me, hearing "abortion is murder" is ludicrous. I know it to be hyperbole. It's not even the same thing.

It's just like the 13 million here illegally... ..you can't just send them all back. Not enough manpower. That's a reality that idealism and ideology simply can not overcome. Unless the nation gathered a 500,000 man task force, to get them all out in 10 years.

Same with the often lifetime task load of all the unwanted pregnancies. Many of them become wards of the states, and foster home fodder. Yeah tons of foster kids come out great. Good for them, I mean it. But lots of them, come out of the foster care system pretty messed up. Another dark reality of humanity. The proverbial homes of orphans and widows.

[Swordsmyth]

Euthanizing kittens and puppies and cats and doggies is horrible, we should make it illegal.
And I like Jack Kevorkian. Just saying.
But no tax money should ever be used for abortion. Very wrong, forcing people who believe it wrong, to pay for it.
And, I don't think anybody should be forced to bring a defective child into the world. Including down syndrome.
I know, your heart is big enough in hypothetical land, where your life suddenly ends up revolving around somebody, with no real hope of them leaving the nest. It can happen, bust most of the time, they become wards of the state.
I know it sounds cold-hearted and all, but, let's be real... 5% of the population takes up 85% of the healthcare.
Rape, incest, hell no they do not have to carry to term. Disgusts me to hear it suggested, due to some dogmatic purity of belief.
And of course life of mother. That's a no-brainer, to me.
People always horrified of the realities of reality.
I have met in my life thousands of people, I would be worried about, if they became parents. Jesus.
I mean like juggalo homeless types. All sorts of people, who could simply not handle a kid, and of course, many, too messed up in the head to ever to remember birth control, and everybody eventually $#@!ing everybody else in the community.
Wards of the state by age eight. It's not that we don't want them, but a lot of them become wards for a reason, and are already pretty messed up psychologically.
Sterilization, is a step too far.
There are a lot, and I mean a lot, of people out there very messed up for a lifetime on all sorts of drugs, legal and illicit.

Plus, calling it murder is hyperbole. If it is murder, let's hang the... ...un-mothered? Oh, just the doctors, right? Let's start throwing all the women who had an abortion in prison, because abortion is just like murder. She still "conspired" (always women, IKR!!?!?) with the doctor. I'm sorry, I don't think women who have had abortions, are allowed to even consider themselves murderers. I certainly don't think people can ever judge a woman who has had an abortion as a murderer, even if the law said so. Useless guillt. Is what it is.

That's far different than I think about murder. I find murder to be on a far, far, far more evil level, than abortion. So to me, hearing "abortion is murder" is ludicrous. I know it to be hyperbole. It's not even the same thing.

It's just like the 13 million here illegally... ..you can't just send them all back. Not enough manpower. That's a reality that idealism and ideology simply can not overcome. Unless the nation gathered a 500,000 man task force, to get them all out in 10 years.

Same with the often lifetime task load of all the unwanted pregnancies. Many of them become wards of the states, and foster home fodder. Yeah tons of foster kids come out great. Good for them, I mean it. But lots of them, come out of the foster care system pretty messed up. Another dark reality of humanity. The proverbial homes of orphans and widows.
At what point does it change from "abortion" to murder?
If there is a difference then you should be able to tell me when the change happens.

And we can deport most of the illegals or cause them to self deport to avoid deportation.

[UWDude]

At what point does it change from "abortion" to murder?


I don't know. You are the one calling them murderers, not I.
Answer your own question.

Conception or first breath? Very deep, kemosabe. You chose one, and of this, you are sure.
I chose the other, and of that, I am sure, and here we are.

[Swordsmyth]

I don't know. You are the one calling them murderers, not I.
Answer your own question.
We know that taking human life is murder, it is up to you to make the case that prior to some discernible point it isn't a human life.


Conception or first breath? Very deep, kemosabe. You chose one, and of this, you are sure.
I chose the other, and here we are.
There are other options, I was a premature child so I can personally tell you that the baby is human before 9 months, I am willing to consider other points like the first heartbeat or the first ability to feel and react to pain etc. but I need to be convinced.

Give me your best shot.

[UWDude]

We know that taking human life is murder, it is up to you to make the case that prior to some discernible point it isn't a human life.


There are other options, I was a premature child so I can personally tell you that the baby is human before 9 months, I am willing to consider other points like the first heartbeat or the first ability to feel and react to pain etc. but I need to be convinced.

Give me your best shot.

Already told you. First breath. No need for me to try to convince you, or you to convince me.

[Swordsmyth]

Already told you. First breath. No need for me to try to convince you, or you to convince me.
First breath is unscientific superstition, the baby is capable of independent action inside the womb.

If you don't want to discuss this further then I will drop it for now.

[UWDude]

First breath is unscientific superstition.
And I think conception is unscientific superstition.

and here we are.

[Swordsmyth]

And I think conception is unscientific superstition.

and here we are.
I am willing to consider thresholds in between, you are not.

and here we are.

[UWDude]

I am willing to consider thresholds in between, you are not.

and here we are.

yup.

[TheCount]

Justifiable Homicide.

Uh, congrats, you just legalized abortion.

[Swordsmyth]

Uh, congrats, you just legalized abortion.
Not hardly, not anymore than that concept legalizes murder.

You have to have justification.

[euphemia]

Rendering every fertilized egg a person will have some effects besides just that.

It already does. With advances in technology many couples are cryogenically storing embryos for such as a time as they want to have them implanted and carried to term. If the couples separate or if one of the people dies, then who gets custody of the embryos? It’s a thing. Courts, attorneys, judges. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, whether viable or not. Destruction of embryos outside the uterus is a different thing altogether.

Try to keep up.

[TheCount]

Destruction of embryos outside the uterus is a different thing altogether.

All embryos are equal, but some embryos are more equal than others?

IVF kills dozens of people to create a single baby. Isn't that mass murder?

Not to mention, during the IVF process, multiple fertilized eggs are implanted into a woman of unknown fertility. Quick googling suggests that the success rate is about 40%. What if they don't take? Whose fault is it? The woman? The doctor? Is this, as @Swordsmyth (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=65299) argues, justifiable homicide once more?

After one failure, can the doctors try again, using a new batch of people in the hopes of fulfilling the couple's desire to have a child (but not through adoption, mysteriously)?

It seems to me that, if this law passed, there could be good business in being a lawyer representing fertilized eggs in Idaho. Alternatively, if on the hunt for murderers, one could simply examine tampons.



Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, whether viable or not.

The Idaho bill affects things other than abortion.

[TheCount]

Not hardly, not anymore than that concept legalizes murder.

You have to have justification.

Justification being that a doctor exists who is willing to perform the procedure and who says that it's "necessary" for the mother.

[Swordsmyth]

Justification being that a doctor exists who is willing to perform the procedure and who says that it's "necessary" for the mother.
That is not justification enough unless there is a good medical reason.

[euphemia]

TC, I wasn’t trying to become part of the argument. I was telling you that this has already been an issue—even for people who are not on any side of the pro-life issue. They have these embryos and they don’t know what to do with them if the couple doesn’t move forward together.

My point of view is deeply personal, faith-based, and lived out faithfully even though it been heartbreaking at times. I don’t think you or some other people have any interest in what that is, or why, and I am not going to share it or argue the point.

[euphemia]

I also want to point out that from a medical standpoint, abortion is the termination of a pregnancy whether the pregnancy is viable or not. In the case of a surgical abortion (D&C), the procedure is the same whether the baby is alive, or not. It is often performed for women whose babies have died in utero. It is still considered an abortion. (thank you, government for requiring coding for every procedure). Very late term abortions require induction of labor, and the baby is killed after the head is delivered.

And because no women are actually on this thread, please know that once conception has occurred, the woman is pregnant. Regardless of whether the pregnancy results in a live birth, miscarriage, or deliberate termination, her body will respond in the same way: uterine cramping, milk production, ppd, changes in hormone levels.

Think about this before going postal about whether it should be legal or not. Restriction of abortion means that women who need D&Cs because their babies have died have to have more testing and pay more because the government has put its paws where they don’t belong. It becomes a lengthy, difficult process for mothers whose hearts are already breaking.

For the record, I am ardently pro-life. Beyond that, I am not going to argue.