Amazon Pays Zero Taxes Again on $11 Billion Profits, This is Socialism in America

[James_Madison_Lives]

For all you AOC and socialism haters get your heads straight. This is the real socialism in America...for corporations. National Debt now $22 trillion and this deadbeat Bezos isn't pitching in a single dime.


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-taxes-zero-180337770.html

https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/fQRghMfUBWCQImzRs_bOeQ--~B/Zmk9c3RyaW07aD0zODg7cHlvZmY9MDtxPTk1O3c9NzIwO3NtPT E7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media-mbst-pub-ue1.s3.amazonaws.com/creatr-uploaded-images/2019-02/25f507d0-3218-11e9-9b7b-878e1dabe41b.cf.webp

[juleswin]

The way I understood it, Amamzon is yet to make any real profits. Their valuation comes from their over priced stock.

[Anti Federalist]

Good.

If Amazon (not Bezos as a person) paid a billion in taxes all that means is that I and everybody else who bought stuff from Amazon paid a billion in taxes.

[dannno]

Good.

If Amazon (not Bezos as a person) paid a billion in taxes all that means is that I and everybody else who bought stuff from Amazon paid a billion in taxes.

Ocasio-Cortez Displays Her Economics Genius Once Again.


https://www.dailywire.com/news/43525/ocasio-cortez-displays-her-economics-genius-once-hank-berrien?utm_source=shapironewsletter-ae&utm_medium=email&utm_content=021619-news&utm_campaign=modelnames


AOC had the genius idea to take the $3 billion in tax breaks that Amazon was supposed to pay to NY and spend it on public schools and shit.

Let that sink in..

Money that Amazon would have paid to the state, but got to keep, but will now be moving from the state - essentially money that does not exist - she wants to spend it on public schools and shit.

Remember the scene in the movie Idiocracy at the end where they go to the Time Masheen and Joe promises Frito he will put money in a bank account for him so he will get ten billion dollars? Then Joe figures out it's just a amusement ride from a fair and then Frito asks him when he is going to get the money?? Joe is like, "Uhhh, Frito..there is no time machine.. if I can't go back in time, then I can't put the money in the bank account... to get interest... there is no money.."

This is what we are dealing with.

OP, change your path. Listen to reason. Socialists don't know wtf they are talking about.

[Anti Federalist]

Remember the scene in the movie Idiocracy at the end where they go to the Time Masheen and Joe promises Frito he will put money in a bank account for him so he will get ten billion dollars? Then Joe figures out it's just a amusement ride from a fair and then Frito asks him when he is going to get the money?? Joe is like, "Uhhh, Frito..there is no time machine.. if I can't go back in time, then I can't put the money in the bank account... to get interest... there is no money.."

This is what we are dealing with.

Oh. My. Fucking. God.

It is...words fail me.

[James_Madison_Lives]

The way I understood it, Amamzon is yet to make any real profits. Their valuation comes from their over priced stock.

You are confusing valuation with income stream and profits, two completely different concepts.

[Dr.3D]

I'm not going to complain when somebody doesn't get robbed.

[Swordsmyth]

I'm not going to complain when somebody doesn't get robbed.
I don't know enough about Amazon to comment on Amazon but I will complain when some animals are more equal than others, especially when the "more equal" animals are entangled with the people who grant them the "more equal" status.

Allowing them to be more equal encourages them to rob everyone else.

[Dr.3D]

I don't know enough about Amazon to comment on Amazon but I will complain when some animals are more equal than others, especially when the "more equal" animals are entangled with the people who grant them the "more equal" status.

Allowing them to be more equal encourages them to rob everyone else.
Reminds me of crabs trying to get out of the pot. Just as one is about to reach the edge and pull himself out, the rest grab him and pull him back in again.

If taxation is theft, then more power to those who can avoid being robbed.

[acptulsa]

Ocasio-Cortez Displays Her Economics Genius Once Again.


https://www.dailywire.com/news/43525/ocasio-cortez-displays-her-economics-genius-once-hank-berrien?utm_source=shapironewsletter-ae&utm_medium=email&utm_content=021619-news&utm_campaign=modelnames


AOC had the genius idea to take the $3 billion in tax breaks that Amazon was supposed to pay to NY and spend it on public schools and $#@!.

Let that sink in..

Money that Amazon would have paid to the state, but got to keep, but will now be moving from the state - essentially money that does not exist - she wants to spend it on public schools and $#@!.

Remember the scene in the movie Idiocracy at the end where they go to the Time Masheen and Joe promises Frito he will put money in a bank account for him so he will get ten billion dollars? Then Joe figures out it's just a amusement ride from a fair and then Frito asks him when he is going to get the money?? Joe is like, "Uhhh, Frito..there is no time machine.. if I can't go back in time, then I can't put the money in the bank account... to get interest... there is no money.."

This is what we are dealing with.

OP, change your path. Listen to reason. Socialists don't know wtf they are talking about.

Stop that.

Math is a downer. You know, like reality. It spoils all the good in the world.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?492919-Liberals-think-algebra-is-outdated-and-useless-shouldn-t-be-taught

A balanced checkbook is just white privilege. Nothing more.

[juleswin]

I'm not going to complain when somebody doesn't get robbed.

The problem is this, what if the only reason they are not getting robbed is because they are friends with the robber? So the robber robs from every hard working, local, native businesses while the big, bad, CIA connected business gets off scott free. If that is the case then we should all be asking for nobody to be robbed or everybody to be robbed.

[Swordsmyth]

Reminds me of crabs trying to get out of the pot. Just as one is about to reach the edge and pull himself out, the rest grab him and pull him back in again.

If taxation is theft, then more power to those who can avoid being robbed.
They are the ones outside the bucket who push the rest of us back in, you will never have liberty for everyone if some people are allowed to take it from others without losing it themselves.

Your point of view is correct for those who are not part of the ruling class that makes the rules that don't apply to them, I will never complain if some average guy works under the table or finds a loophole but I will complain about the people who get Congress to write custom loopholes for them and increase taxes on others to compensate.

[juleswin]

I don't know enough about Amazon to comment on Amazon but I will complain when some animals are more equal than others, especially when the "more equal" animals are entangled with the people who grant them the "more equal" status.

Allowing them to be more equal encourages them to rob everyone else.

Equal playing field is what I call it. This is govt playing favorites and I am not in favor of the govt playing favorites and picking winners and losers in the market place. We all know the govt will not stop taxating businesses any time soon, so if the story is true then they should treat amazon just like every body else.

[Dr.3D]

Equal playing field is what I call it. This is govt playing favorites and I am not in favor of the govt playing favorites and picking winners and losers in the market place. We all know the govt will not stop taxating businesses any time soon, so if the story is true then they should treat amazon just like every body else.

How about just treating everybody else like they do Amazon?

[juleswin]

How about just treating everybody else like they do Amazon?

Be honest, which is more likely? that the govt treats everybody like amazon or they treat everybody like your reg mid level corporation?

[Swordsmyth]

How about just treating everybody else like they do Amazon?
That would be great but (and I don't know enough about Amazon's profits to say for sure) it may be necessary to make them treat Amazon like everyone else as a half step on the way there.

[Dr.3D]

Be honest, which is more likely? that the govt treats everybody like amazon or they treat everybody like your reg mid level corporation?
Guess it would depend on how much noise those who are being robbed make about being robbed.

[kcchiefs6465]

For all you AOC and socialism haters get your heads straight. This is the real socialism in America...for corporations. National Debt now $22 trillion and this deadbeat Bezos isn't pitching in a single dime.


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-taxes-zero-180337770.html

https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/fQRghMfUBWCQImzRs_bOeQ--~B/Zmk9c3RyaW07aD0zODg7cHlvZmY9MDtxPTk1O3c9NzIwO3NtPT E7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media-mbst-pub-ue1.s3.amazonaws.com/creatr-uploaded-images/2019-02/25f507d0-3218-11e9-9b7b-878e1dabe41b.cf.webp
A few questions:

1. How much do you pay in taxes?

2. How many people do you employ?

3. What value do you provide the economy and your fellow man?

Cold day on RPF when we are left defending Amazon from communist inclinations to steal their property.

[kcchiefs6465]

James Madison is dead.

[kahless]

For all you AOC and socialism haters get your heads straight. This is the real socialism in America...for corporations. National Debt now $22 trillion and this deadbeat Bezos isn't pitching in a single dime.


Not only that Amazon is pushing for federal internet sales tax legislation. This means individuals would be taxed if they make internet purchases in any of the 9000+ sales tax jurisdictions. Businesses would have to collect and understand the tax law in any of the 9000+ sales tax jurisdictions that they sell into. This would be a nightmare processing and dealing with audits from any of these jurisdictions.

It would give power to be misused by Progressives in any of these 9000+ jurisdictions to audit an individual or business they disagree with or is not promoting their agenda. Amazon knows this so they would offer their services for a fee and the collect on interest on the remittances that would go through them. Essentially Amazon would be the nations tax middle man between us and government.

So they pay no tax, are a monopoly that undersells until the competition in the entire segment they targeted is eliminated, significant number of businesses sell through them and they are calling for more taxes and government to control us. Not to forget their government contracts and their market share in web hosting.

Yeah, they need to die before it is too late.

[Swordsmyth]

Not only that Amazon is pushing for federal internet sales tax legislation. This means individuals would be taxed if they make internet purchases in any of the 9000+ sales tax jurisdictions. Businesses would have to collect and understand the tax law in any of the 9000+ sales tax jurisdictions that they sell into. This would be a nightmare processing and dealing with audits from any of these jurisdictions.

It would give power to be misused by Progressives in any of these 9000+ jurisdictions to audit an individual or business they disagree with or is not promoting their agenda. Amazon knows this so they would offer their services for a fee and the collect on interest on the remittances that would go through them. Essentially Amazon would be the nations tax middle man between us and government.

So they pay no tax, are a monopoly that undersells until the competition in the entire segment they targeted is eliminated, significant number of businesses sell through them and they are calling for more taxes and government to control us. Not to forget their government contracts and their market share in web hosting.

Yeah, they need to die before it is too late.
I hope the divorce makes him break up his empire, we need a few breaks like that.

[kcchiefs6465]

Not only that Amazon is pushing for federal internet sales tax legislation. This means individuals would be taxed if they make internet purchases in any of the 9000+ sales tax jurisdictions. Businesses would have to collect and understand the tax law in any of the 9000+ sales tax jurisdictions that they sell into. This would be a nightmare processing and dealing with audits from any of these jurisdictions.

It would give power to be misused by Progressives in any of these 9000+ jurisdictions to audit an individual or business they disagree with or is not promoting their agenda. Amazon knows this so they would offer their services for a fee and the collect on interest on the remittances that would go through them. Essentially Amazon would be the nations tax middle man between us and government.

So they pay no tax, are a monopoly that undersells until the competition in the entire segment they targeted is eliminated, significant number of businesses sell through them and they are calling for more taxes and government to control us. Not to forget their government contracts and their market share in web hosting.

Yeah, they need to die before it is too late.
Their position on an internet sales tax is reprehensible and just to be clear, I hope I see the day that Amazon goes out of business for their various anti-liberty positions.

That said, monopolies are a myth absent government intervention. While government no doubt props up Amazon it is hardly a monopoly. Some are even speculating they are slowing or stagnating, especially as it relates to the acquisition of Whole Foods. They'll be a player for a couple decades but will probably go the way of IBM.

The solution is to open up competition with the government ending taxes on the competitors of Amazon (if they did indeed not pay any taxes). If I were a betting man I'd bet that Jeff Bezos still paid more in taxes than the next 10,000 people whining about fairness.

ETA: You can't necessarily blame those using the system (I still do) to disadvantage competitors and prop up less productive models as well as just avoiding being robbed through any avenue afforded.

[CCTelander]

How about just treating everybody else like they do Amazon?


Precisely. My only problem with Amazon paying 0 taxes is that there aren't more ways for the rest of us to do likewise. The solution to the "inequity" is to find and advocate more and better ways for eveyone else to pay 0, not to foolishly demand that Amazon pay "their fair share" like a good little socialist.

[angelatc]

The way I understood it, Amamzon is yet to make any real profits. Their valuation comes from their over priced stock.

Shocked that a communist doesn't understand that Amazon actually made a profit of $11.2 Billion. It's stock value is $800 billion.

[angelatc]

For all you AOC and socialism haters get your heads straight. This is the real socialism in America...for corporations. National Debt now $22 trillion and this deadbeat Bezos isn't pitching in a single dime.






Of course he is. He pays more in income taxes in a quarter than you will pay in your lifetime.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I like corporate taxes. Every brick and log should be made to pay more.


https://media.giphy.com/media/2ZFuPKWcSw16E/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

[CCTelander]

Their position on an internet sales tax is reprehensible and just to be clear, I hope I see the day that Amazon goes out of business for their various anti-liberty positions.

That said, monopolies are a myth absent government intervention. While government no doubt props up Amazon it is hardly a monopoly. Some are even speculating they are slowing or stagnating, especially as it relates to the acquisition of Whole Foods. They'll be a player for a couple decades but will probably go the way of IBM.

The solution is to open up competition with the government ending taxes on the competitors of Amazon (if they did indeed not pay any taxes). If I were a betting man I'd bet that Jeff Bezos still paid more in taxes than the next 10,000 people whining about fairness.

ETA: You can't necessarily blame those using the system (I still do) to disadvantage competitors and prop up less productive models as well as just avoiding being robbed through any avenue afforded.


^^^^THIS^^^^

I stopped selling on Amazon when they came out in support of the internet sales tax, even though it was a moderately profitable part of my business. There are other ways to make money online.

[kahless]

Equal playing field is what I call it. This is govt playing favorites and I am not in favor of the govt playing favorites and picking winners and losers in the market place. We all know the govt will not stop taxating businesses any time soon, so if the story is true then they should treat amazon just like every body else.

I think the average folks would agree with this with but some how when you mention Amazon people shut down and go into defense mode. It as if people are afraid you are going to take away with their beloved UI and ease of delivery. Well I like all that to but that does not mean I am going to turn a blind eye to everything else they do.

Although they are becoming less of a sacred cow and people are waking up about them, it reminds me of the same mentality of the reaction you would get if you were against an interventionist foreign policy. You are an isolationist! You hate the troops!

Criticize Amazon and you are anti-Capitalist, Socialist AOC supporter.

[kahless]

I stopped selling on Amazon when they came out in support of the internet sales tax, even though it was a moderately profitable part of my business. There are other ways to make money online.

If only more people would make that sacrifice.

[CCTelander]

If only more people would make that sacrifice.


I don't see it as a sacrifice. I see it as an investment in my children's' and grandchildren's futures.

[brushfire]

If I could get away with not paying any tax, I would do it too...

Be glad that you dont get the government you pay for, and be even more glad that you dont get the government you dont pay for.

[kona]

I can't believe people still fall for these headlines.

1. There is very little information in financial statements to ascertain how much tax corporations paid. A 10k has zero to do with a tax return, that's why so much work is involved with book/tax reconciliations (provisions). You can have a 10k show zero for taxes paid but the tax return shows billions paid. Likewise, you can show 10 billion in taxes paid on the 10k but actually have paid nothing if your tax return has no liability. Income/expenses/assets/liabilities/deductions/credits/valuations/etc...these all have very different meanings for the financial accounting world than the tax return world.

2. I have lost interest in AMZN, but they lost so much money for many years. Years and years of NOLs. Those all carry forward (and backward) so the effect is to not tax a business until they are net profitable. If they have not reached net profitability, they shouldn't be taxed (nobody else is).

Non-horrific journos understand these nuances but most journos are horrific. Speculating on taxes without a tax return is worse than astrology.

[Pauls' Revere]

A flat tax, and a tax code with no credits or deductions. Just a simple equation like: (income * .15) = tax owed. People pay the same rate as corporations and corporations pay the same rate as people.

[oyarde]

I do not use amazon or any longer pay taxes myself . It is good to be on top.

[Swordsmyth]

A flat tax, and a tax code with no credits or deductions. Just a simple equation like: (income * .15) = tax owed. People pay the same rate as corporations and corporations pay the same rate as people.
And income taxes are the same rate as capital gains.

Of course that would only be a half step on the way to eliminating income taxes and capital gains taxes.

[Pauls' Revere]

And income taxes are the same rate as capital gains.

Of course that would only be a half step on the way to eliminating income taxes and capital gains taxes.

I would rather have a zero income tax and zero capital gains but the realistic side of me knows that is a big hill to climb. At least with a simple formula everyone can actually see what the hell they pay and thus provides greater transparency. So, people could at least aim for a zero tax and it could be measured and tracked much easier too. Imagine being able to pull up a simple historical rate over the last 50 years. i.e. it was 10% one year, then 12% the next, then 20% the following year...etc. people could easily see what the hell is going on.

An additional benefit is that we could reduce the number of employees at the IRS and probably put a serious dent in eliminating the need for tax prepare-rs and all that tax software garbage too.

[Pauls' Revere]

A flat tax, and a tax code with no credits or deductions. Just a simple equation like: (income * .15) = tax owed. People pay the same rate as corporations and corporations pay the same rate as people.

I feel a tweet coming on...


realDonaldTrump Start a flat tax. Use a simple formula like (income x .15) = Tax owed. Same rate for corporations and individuals pay the same rate. Eliminate ALL tax credits and deductions for each. This provides more transparency for all.

[angelatc]

A flat tax, and a tax code with no credits or deductions. Just a simple equation like: (income * .15) = tax owed. People pay the same rate as corporations and corporations pay the same rate as people.

No income taxes, period. Corporate or otherwise.

And corporations don't pay taxes. Their customers do. Additionally taxing corporate profits and also taxing capital gains is double taxation. Something that the left heartily endorses.

[angelatc]

I do not use amazon or any longer pay taxes myself . It is good to be on top.

I don't usually do Amazon either, but it's not one of my usual solo boycotts. Sometimes they have cat food cheaper than WalMart so I'll buy 10 boxes or so, because if I buy that many I get free delivery too. But usually I find that they are more expensive than local shopping. I understand paying for convenience, but I don't want to.

I do sell older books on Amazon but hardly anything else. I hate the fact that Amazon competes with me directly, so I just don't.

[Pauls' Revere]

No income taxes, period. Corporate or otherwise.

And corporations don't pay taxes. Their customers do. Additionally taxing corporate profits and also taxing capital gains is double taxation. Something that the left heartily endorses.

Right, the downstream end user(s) pay. Agreed, a zero income tax, but what would they tax instead? how about a flat rate V.A.T.?

[angelatc]

Right, the downstream end user(s) pay. Agreed, a zero income tax, but what would they tax instead? how about a flat rate V.A.T.?

No VAT.

The founders used tariffs on imports.

[Pauls' Revere]

No VAT.

The founders used tariffs on imports.

Hmm,..but tariffs = bad for free trade.

How about an amendment that income tax can not exceed more than 10% of income? Although I want a zero income tax I know its unrealistic to expect it.

[Zippyjuan]

Hmm,..but tariffs = bad for free trade.

How about an amendment that income tax can not exceed more than 10% of income? Although I want a zero income tax I know its unrealistic to expect it.

Tariffs just get passed along to consumers too. Since it is hidden in the prices of things, it is the same effect as a national sales tax- but consumers have no idea just how much the tax is really costing them.

Currently about half of income tax filers owe no net income taxes.

What would your ten percent flat income tax look like? National income is about $16 trillion. If spending is $4 trillion as it is today, we would need a 25% national flat income tax (not counting any exemptions). Ten percent would net $1.6 trillion. Social Security alone covers $1 trillion. Interest on the debt another $400 billion. That leaves $200 billion if you don't slash Social Security (even Ron Paul avoided talking about cutting that).

[Dr.3D]

Tariffs just get passed along to consumers too. Since it is hidden in the prices of things, it is the same effect as a national sales tax- but consumers have no idea just how much the tax is really costing them.

Currently about half of income tax filers owe no net income taxes.
If the price of the item is too high, the consumer has the choice not to buy it.

An income tax doesn't leave the consumer any choice at all.

[Zippyjuan]

If the price of the item is too high, the consumer has the choice not to buy it.

An income tax doesn't leave the consumer any choice at all.

Tariffs effect the prices of ALL goods. If you have our current level of spending we need a 200% tariff on all imports. That effects the prices of all imported goods but also all goods made domestically with any imported parts and removes competition for domestic goods so they can charge higher prices. The US imposed steel and aluminum tariffs- now US domestic steel prices are the highest in the world- even though we do produce steel domestically. As we impose tariffs, other countries impose them on us in response. That kills our exports costing jobs. The higher costs to producers here who use anything imported also cut jobs to try to cover the higher costs.

Tariffs sound like somebody else is paying taxes so you don't have to but you do pay the tax every time you buy something.

[Dr.3D]

Tariffs effect the prices of ALL goods. If you have our current level of spending we need a 200% tariff on all imports. That effects the prices of all imported goods but also all goods made domestically with any imported parts and removes competition for domestic goods so they can charge higher prices. The US imposed steel and aluminum tariffs- now US domestic steel prices are the highest in the world- even though we do produce steel domestically. As we impose tariffs, other countries impose them on us in response. That kills our exports costing jobs. The higher costs to producers here who use anything imported also cut jobs to try to cover the higher costs.

Tariffs sound like somebody else is paying taxes so you don't have to but you do pay the tax every time you buy something.
Yes, every time I buy something.

There isn't a mandate as to what I have to buy, just yet.

The less stuff I buy, the less taxes I end up paying.

[Sonny Tufts]

Use a simple formula like (income x .15) = Tax owed. Same rate for corporations and individuals pay the same rate. Eliminate ALL tax credits and deductions for each.

It's not that simple. Will businesses (whether or not incorporated) be unable to deduct wages paid to employees, rent, supplies, depreciation, and other costs of doing business? If not, which particular deductions will be allowed?

Will all personal deductions go away, such as home mortgage interest, IRA contributions, and state and local taxes?

[Superfluous Man]

Keeping you own money instead of having it stolen by the state is the opposite of socialism.

[Anti Federalist]

Tariffs just get passed along to consumers too. Since it is hidden in the prices of things, it is the same effect as a national sales tax- but consumers have no idea just how much the tax is really costing them.

Currently about half of income tax filers owe no net income taxes.

What would your ten percent flat income tax look like? National income is about $16 trillion. If spending is $4 trillion as it is today, we would need a 25% national flat income tax (not counting any exemptions). Ten percent would net $1.6 trillion. Social Security alone covers $1 trillion. Interest on the debt another $400 billion. That leaves $200 billion if you don't slash Social Security (even Ron Paul avoided talking about cutting that).

Of all forms of taxation, tariffs and excises are least intrusive.

[Superfluous Man]

Tariffs effect the prices of ALL goods. If you have our current level of spending we need a 200% tariff on all imports.

You must be assuming that we would still import just as much even with that extra cost, which is a false assumption.

In reality, there is no possible way that tariffs could ever garner as much revenue as the federal government currently spends, no matter what rate those tariffs are.

There is nothing good about tariffs. But if the choice is between tariffs and an income tax, this very point is a definite point in favor of tariffs over income tax.

[Anti Federalist]

It's not that simple. Will businesses (whether or not incorporated) be unable to deduct wages paid to employees, rent, supplies, depreciation, and other costs of doing business? If not, which particular deductions will be allowed?

Will all personal deductions go away, such as home mortgage interest, IRA contributions, and state and local taxes?

Yes.

The tax code should not be used as a tool to punantively "nudge" people into certain decisions and directions.

[Zippyjuan]

You must be assuming that we would still import just as much even with that extra cost, which is a false assumption.

In reality, there is no possible way that tariffs could ever garner as much revenue as the federal government currently spends, no matter what rate those tariffs are.

There is nothing good about tariffs. But if the choice is between tariffs and an income tax, this very point is a definite point in favor of tariffs over income tax.

Actually with higher tariffs, imports should fall so the tariff rates will have to be even still higher to raise the same amount of revenues. You are right, you probably can't raise enough money at current spending levels via tariffs.

[Zippyjuan]

Yes.

The tax code should not be used as a tool to punantively "nudge" people into certain decisions and directions.

Which is what tariffs do.

[Superfluous Man]

You are right, you probably can't raise enough money at current spending levels via tariffs.

This natural limitation is one thing that makes tariffs a less bad alternative than other taxes.

[Anti Federalist]

Which is what tariffs do.

How does an across the board tariff do that?

[Zippyjuan]

How does an across the board tariff do that?

It discourages buying of imported goods and goods which are made from any imported components. If you want it to be neutral to all goods, you want a national sales tax instead (tariffs are essentially a sales tax since they get passed along to consumers in the price of goods). But that too would have to be extremely high. Retail sales for the US runs about $6 trillion a year so instead of a 200% tariff on all imported goods (tripling their prices), a sales tax would have to be 67% on all retail goods to finance $4 trillion in spending (our current level). If you start exempting things (like food) the rate will need to be higher. And as with tariffs, sales would drop a lot when that tax rate hits so it would have to be higher than that.

[Superfluous Man]

It discourages buying of imported goods and goods which are made from any imported components. If you want it to be neutral to all goods, you want a national sales tax instead. But that too would have to be extremely high. Retail sales for the US runs about $6 trillion a year so instead of a 200% tariff on all imported goods (tripling their prices), a sales tax would have to be 67% on all retail goods to finance $4 trillion in spending (our current level). If you start exempting things (like food) the rate will need to be higher. And as in the tariffs, sales would drop a lot when that tax rate hits so it would have to be higher than that.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Zippyjuan again."

[angelatc]

Hmm,..but tariffs = bad for free trade.

How about an amendment that income tax can not exceed more than 10% of income? Although I want a zero income tax I know its unrealistic to expect it.

I'm ok with tariffs.

[angelatc]

Actually with higher tariffs, imports should fall so the tariff rates will have to be even still higher to raise the same amount of revenues. You are right, you probably can't raise enough money at current spending levels via tariffs.

Cutting spending isn't on your table, I see.

[angelatc]

How does an across the board tariff do that?

It forces Americans to start producing more, and without an income tax to punish them for that, the beast begins to starve. Tragedy.

[Pauls' Revere]

It's not that simple. Will businesses (whether or not incorporated) be unable to deduct wages paid to employees, rent, supplies, depreciation, and other costs of doing business? If not, which particular deductions will be allowed?

Will all personal deductions go away, such as home mortgage interest, IRA contributions, and state and local taxes?

Yes, to all the above.

[Pauls' Revere]

I'm ok with tariffs.

I understand it, but I gringe.

[Sonny Tufts]

Yes.

The tax code should not be used as a tool to punantively "nudge" people into certain decisions and directions.

So what you really want is a gross receipts tax, not an income tax. Example: I run a business, and my gross receipts are $100,000. But I pay out $110,000 in wages and rent. Economically speaking I have a $10K loss, yet you want me to pay a tax on $100K.

[Sonny Tufts]

Yes, to all the above.

So you want a gross receipts tax, not an income tax.

[kona]

Even if ordinary income and cap gains are both taxed at 15%, they still cannot offset each other. For example, if you make 100k from your job, and lose 100k in the market, you still owe tax on 97k (cap losses only deductible against cap gains, save 3k).

There are endless examples of how any changes, even good ones, can never be good for everyone.

[kcchiefs6465]

James Madison has yet to answer how many people he employs and what value he adds to the economy.

I'm not going to assume that that is because he does not employ anyone and doesn't add any particular value to the economy, as is the case with most deadbeat socialists whining about a fair share.

[Swordsmyth]

I would rather have a zero income tax and zero capital gains but the realistic side of me knows that is a big hill to climb. At least with a simple formula everyone can actually see what the hell they pay and thus provides greater transparency. So, people could at least aim for a zero tax and it could be measured and tracked much easier too. Imagine being able to pull up a simple historical rate over the last 50 years. i.e. it was 10% one year, then 12% the next, then 20% the following year...etc. people could easily see what the hell is going on.

An additional benefit is that we could reduce the number of employees at the IRS and probably put a serious dent in eliminating the need for tax prepare-rs and all that tax software garbage too.
:up:

[Swordsmyth]

Right, the downstream end user(s) pay. Agreed, a zero income tax, but what would they tax instead? how about a flat rate V.A.T.?
Tariffs and excise taxes are the best. (but the excise taxes must be on the sale rather than the manufacture of the item specified)

[Swordsmyth]

Hmm,..but tariffs = bad for free trade.

How about an amendment that income tax can not exceed more than 10% of income? Although I want a zero income tax I know its unrealistic to expect it.
Every tax is bad for something, that is why spending needs to be cut but tariffs are the least bad and have the best beneficial side effects.

[Swordsmyth]

Which is what tariffs do.

Any tax does that, that is why you want low spending and low taxes.
But the things that tariffs nudge people to do are better than the things other taxes nudge you to do.

[Swordsmyth]

I understand it, but I gringe.
Take your medicine like a man.:D

[Theocrat]

For all you AOC and socialism haters get your heads straight. This is the real socialism in America...for corporations. National Debt now $22 trillion and this deadbeat Bezos isn't pitching in a single dime.


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-taxes-zero-180337770.html

https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/fQRghMfUBWCQImzRs_bOeQ--~B/Zmk9c3RyaW07aD0zODg7cHlvZmY9MDtxPTk1O3c9NzIwO3NtPT E7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media-mbst-pub-ue1.s3.amazonaws.com/creatr-uploaded-images/2019-02/25f507d0-3218-11e9-9b7b-878e1dabe41b.cf.webp

That's not socialism; that's good news. The federal nor state governments deserve our tax dollars with the way they waste money today, especially in giving it to people who aren't willing to be productive members of society.

[Pauls' Revere]

Take your medicine like a man.:D

[sigh]...:nauseated:

[Pauls' Revere]

That's not socialism; that's good news. The federal nor state governments deserve our tax dollars with the way they waste money today, especially in giving it to people who aren't willing to be productive members of society.

work camps for those on welfare! or we just get rid of the welfare state altogether.

[Pauls' Revere]

Tariffs and excise taxes are the best. (but the excise taxes must be on the sale rather than the manufacture of the item specified)

So, it looks like this then: (sales total, or excise tax) x (.15) = taxes owed. Assuming a 15% rate. The tariffs then are set by congress.

[Swordsmyth]

So, it looks like this then: (sales total, or excise tax) x (.15) = taxes owed. Assuming a 15% rate. The tariffs then are set by congress.
Something like that.

I would prefer to eliminate all domestic taxation of citizens by the feds and replace it with a cashflow tax on state budgets, that would move the responsibility for taxing citizens to a lower level where it could be controlled better and encourage low taxes and spending by the states.

[Pauls' Revere]

Something like that.

I would prefer to eliminate all domestic taxation of citizens by the feds and replace it with a cashflow tax on state budgets, that would move the responsibility for taxing citizens to a lower level where it could be controlled better and encourage low taxes and spending by the states.

and eliminate ALL deductions and credits.

[Swordsmyth]

and eliminate ALL deductions and credits.
Yes.

[Zippyjuan]

Cutting spending isn't on your table, I see.

Nobody else is talking about the spending side in this thread either including you until this post. What would you propose cutting? (Ron Paul was reluctant to call for any spending cuts in Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid and you can't cut interest on the debt)

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/trump2019_discpie_unbranded_large.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Mandatory_Spending.jpg/615px-Mandatory_Spending.jpg

[kcchiefs6465]

Nobody else is talking about the spending side in this thread either including you until this post. What would you propose cutting? (Ron Paul was reluctant to call for any spending cuts in Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid and you can't cut interest on the debt)

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/trump2019_discpie_unbranded_large.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Mandatory_Spending.jpg/615px-Mandatory_Spending.jpg
A little bit of all of it.

[Swordsmyth]

Nobody else is talking about the spending side in this thread either

Any tax does that, that is why you want low spending and low taxes.
But the things that tariffs nudge people to do are better than the things other taxes nudge you to do.

Every tax is bad for something, that is why spending needs to be cut but tariffs are the least bad and have the best beneficial side effects.
...

[Swordsmyth]

What would you propose cutting? (Ron Paul was reluctant to call for any spending cuts in Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid and you can't cut interest on the debt)

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/trump2019_discpie_unbranded_large.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Mandatory_Spending.jpg/615px-Mandatory_Spending.jpg

We can start with cuts to the military and the bureaucracy and then eliminate all federal education spending and foreign aid.
Then we can means test Social Security as part of a plan to phase it out entirely.

And that's just a start.

[kcchiefs6465]

...
Zippy is this forum's official free market voice of reason.

Only he keeps this forum honest by pointing out that government spending is a problem and I appreciate him for continually going where no other forum member would go.

I am hopeful that in coming posts Zippy will spare some of his time to lecture us about the failings of communism.. as I'm sure no one on this forum has ever brought that up.

[Zippyjuan]

We can start with cuts to the military and the bureaucracy and then eliminate all federal education spending and foreign aid.
Then we can means test Social Security as part of a plan to phase it out entirely.

And that's just a start.

Thought you wanted them to guard your border. Cutting education would save about $50 billion out of $4 trillion. Foreign aid gets you another $50 billion. Congratulations! You reduced spending by 2%!

Ron talked about letting "young people opt out of Social Security" but would "honor the country's commitments to people who qualified for benefits". Opting out would mean fewer taxes coming in to fund it but keeping the payments going means that money would have to come from someplace else- other taxes or spending cuts in other areas or more government borrowing. Any savings would not be realized for the 40 or so years that the non- contributing people reached retirement age.

If you leave off Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid and interest on the debt, you can at best cut only about 25% of spending (and that assumes you get rid of everything including 90% of the military budget).

[Swordsmyth]

Thought you wanted them to guard your border.
They can do that and take massive cuts to their budget, we would just have to pack up and leave the rest of the world.


Cutting education would save about $50 billion out of $4 trillion. Foreign aid gets you another $50 billion. Congratulations! You reduced spending by 2%!
You didn't even address everything I said:


Then we can means test Social Security as part of a plan to phase it out entirely.

And I said it was just a start.

[kcchiefs6465]

Thought you wanted them to guard your border. Cutting education would save about $50 billion out of $4 trillion. Foreign aid gets you another $50 billion. Congratulations! You reduced spending by 2%!
The best way to solve this crisis is government bonds.

At least until the extraterrestrial invasion and then we will all be rich. Paul Samuelson taught me everything there is to know about economics.

[Swordsmyth]

Zippy is this forum's official free market voice of reason.

Only he keeps this forum honest by pointing out that government spending is a problem and I appreciate him for continually going where no other forum member would go.

I am hopeful that in coming posts Zippy will spare some of his time to lecture us about the failings of communism.. as I'm sure no one on this forum has ever brought that up.
Maybe we should rename this place "Zippyjuan Forums".

[Zippyjuan]

They can do that and take massive cuts to their budget, we would just have to pack up and leave the rest of the world.


You didn't even address everything I said:



And I said it was just a start.

Updated post to discuss what Ron suggested to do with Social Security.

[Zippyjuan]

Maybe we should rename this place "Zippyjuan Forums".

Nah- it is already "Swordsmyth forums".

[kcchiefs6465]

Maybe we should rename this place "Zippyjuan Forums".
While I definitely agree, Zippy is far too humble for that.

Just thanking him for his service is more than reward enough for his tireless dedication to free market ideas.

[kcchiefs6465]

Updated post to discuss what Ron suggested to do with Social Security.
Zippy, is there any ways aside from deficit spending to get this economy back on track?

Asking for a friend.

[Swordsmyth]

Ron talked about letting "young people opt out of Social Security" but would "honor the country's commitments to people who qualified for benefits". Opting out would mean fewer taxes coming in to fund it but keeping the payments going means that money would have to come from someplace else- other taxes or spending cuts in other areas or more government borrowing. Any savings would not be realized for the 40 or so years that the non- contributing people reached retirement age.
That is why I want to means test it as part of a phase-out plan, it was never an investment program and the first step to eliminate it is to stop paying out to people who don't need it.


If you leave off Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid and interest on the debt, you can at best cut only about 25% of spending (and that assumes you get rid of everything including 90% of the military budget).
We can do things about Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid, we can shred the debt held by the Fed and start paying off the rest.

And 25% is not a bad start.

[Swordsmyth]

Nah- it is already "Swordsmyth forums".
:rolleyes:

[Pauls' Revere]

A little bit of all of it.

Bingo. start with 10% across the board. ALL departments agencies, offices, etc...

[kcchiefs6465]

Bingo. start with 10% across the board. ALL departments agencies, offices, etc...
How do you eat a frog? One bite at a time.

Sometimes it's better in the morning to just eat the frog- one bite. So you can get on about your day without thinking about the frog.

We're a far way away from that.

[Pauls' Revere]

How do you eat a frog? One bite at a time.

Sometimes it's better in the morning to just eat the frog- one bite. So you can get on about your day without thinking about the frog.

We're a far way away from that.

Can't they just declare a national financial emergency? I'd love to see that, but alas, I'm not holding my breath.

[Krugminator2]

Zippy, is there any ways aside from deficit spending to get this economy back on track?
.



The best way to solve this crisis is government bonds.




Is the economy off track and what crisis are you talking about? The economy is booming. This is about as good as it gets.

That isn't an endorsement of policy and it doesn't mean things won't get worse. But we aren't in a crisis right now. Things are great in the USA, especially compared to the rest of the world.

[kcchiefs6465]

Is the economy off track and what crisis are you talking about? The economy is booming. This is about as good as it gets.

That isn't an endorsement of policy and it doesn't mean things won't get worse. But we aren't in a crisis right now. Things are great in the USA, especially compared to the rest of the world.
Compared to the rest of the world we have an advantage- reserve currency status.

I'm sure you could find statistics of sunshine same as I could find statistics that paint another picture.

However I think the most telling statistic is the one relating to the percentage of Americans who do not have so much as a thousand dollars saved (they say 38%).

Are single income households even a thing anymore?

[PierzStyx]

For all you AOC and socialism haters get your heads straight. This is the real socialism in America...for corporations. National Debt now $22 trillion and this deadbeat Bezos isn't pitching in a single dime.


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-taxes-zero-180337770.html

https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/fQRghMfUBWCQImzRs_bOeQ--~B/Zmk9c3RyaW07aD0zODg7cHlvZmY9MDtxPTk1O3c9NzIwO3NtPT E7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media-mbst-pub-ue1.s3.amazonaws.com/creatr-uploaded-images/2019-02/25f507d0-3218-11e9-9b7b-878e1dabe41b.cf.webp

Wait.... You're saying someone keeping all their private property, including money, and not having it seized by teh State to spend on supposed communal projects for the "good of society" is Socialism?

You need a basic economics class.

[PierzStyx]

Zippy, is there any ways aside from deficit spending to get this economy back on track?

Asking for a friend.

Not Zippy, but the answer is no. There is no way short of utter economic collapse to ever repay or rectify $21 trillion in debt. Especially when elections in republics and democracies incentivize short term gains for politicians over long term suffering to fix a problem.

[kcchiefs6465]

Not Zippy, but the answer is no. There is no way short of utter economic collapse to ever repay or rectify $21 trillion in debt. Especially when elections in republics and democracies incentivize short term gains for politicians over long term suffering to fix a problem.
Reading some of the comments here you'd think that if only Bezos paid his 'fair share' we'd be back on track to fiscal sanity.

As if there is one, an unlimited supply of money in the hands of billionaires, and two, no limit to how much said billionaires would tolerate being stolen from them.

Not that I expect communists to be particularly apt at critical thinking, but do you think they actually understand the difference between a million, a billion, and a trillion?

I also feel like it is important to note that the people clamoring for someone to pay their fair share are often unproductive drains on the economy. Public-dole-living-off-of-cretins who whine about fairness.

[acptulsa]

Wait.... You're saying someone keeping all their private property, including money, and not having it seized by teh State to spend on supposed communal projects for the "good of society" is Socialism?

You need a basic economics class.

No, that wasn't even close to the point.

The point is, the New American Socialism is being sold as stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. But the reality is, the government steals from the poor (if only through social security and inflation taxes) and gives to the rich.

[Zippyjuan]

That is why I want to means test it as part of a phase-out plan, it was never an investment program and the first step to eliminate it is to stop paying out to people who don't need it.


We can do things about Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid, we can shred the debt held by the Fed and start paying off the rest.

And 25% is not a bad start.

To start paying down debt you need to be taking in more in taxes than you spend. If you want to do it in 20 years, you need to take in $2 trillion more a year in taxes than you spend currently ($ 1 trillion to get rid of the deficit and $1 trillion more to put towards the debt). Not gonna happen.

Rand Paul's plan started with spending cuts but also assumed that tax revenues rose by 25% (he did not go into how the taxes would be higher) during the five years of his plan. He avoided cuts to Social Security but suggest some sort of "partial privatization".

George Bush had a shot to start paying down some of the debt but instead gave a big tax cut and started two major wars. We went from a basically balanced budget to $1 deficits. GW Bush cut taxes but was concerned about the deficit/ debt and raised them. He lost re-election. After that, real talk about the debt pretty much died. Reagan also signed tax cuts but also signed the (then) biggest tax increase in history also because of rising deficits.

If you are serious about the debt/ deficit, you must be willing to consider Social Security cuts and higher taxes. There is not enough money in the "discressionary" part of the budget. You have to go for the big tickets. But that would be political suicide so politicians avoid even suggesting it.

[Superfluous Man]

No, that wasn't even close to the point.

The point is, the New American Socialism is being sold as stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. But the reality is, the government steals from the poor (if only through social security and inflation taxes) and gives to the rich.

OK. But there's a difference between giving something to someone and refraining from taking something away from them.

Maybe the government does give Amazon corporate welfare. But if so, it must be by other ways than what the OP is about.

[angelatc]

If you leave off Social Security and Medicare/ Medicaid and interest on the debt, you can at best cut only about 25% of spending (and that assumes you get rid of everything including 90% of the military budget).

LOL @ "only."

If I walk into a private sector job and manage to cut expenses by 25% I'm a freaking genius.

[angelatc]

No, that wasn't even close to the point.

The point is, the New American Socialism is being sold as stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. But the reality is, the government steals from the poor (if only through social security and inflation taxes) and gives to the rich.

That's especially true of social security. The older you are, the more assets you likely have. Social Security takes from the poorest class of workers, the young, and hands out the cash to the wealthiest, the old. It's a great gig.

But the media has done a bangup job of showing seniors as poor people eating cat food to stay alive in their little shacks with leaky tin roofs.

[Zippyjuan]

LOL @ "only."

If I walk into a private sector job and manage to cut expenses by 25% I'm a freaking genius.

That 25% includes money for border, dealing with immigrants and criminals. Throw open the borders and release all the prisoners in federal prisions. Also all military spending.

[Anti Federalist]

I miss the days when this forum would celebrate and encourage people who didn't pay taxes.

[Superfluous Man]

I miss the days when this forum would celebrate and encourage people who didn't pay taxes.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again."

I think many of us still do.

[acptulsa]

I miss the days when this forum would celebrate and encourage people who didn't pay taxes.

Looks to me like that's what's happening, give or take a shyll or two.

But the fact remains, socialists like to think they're Robin Hood. But the money they steal still always winds up in the pockets of whoever owns the most politicians.

[kahless]

I miss the days when this forum would celebrate and encourage people who didn't pay taxes.

I remember the days in this forum when people would recognize who their enemies are and realize applying libertarian principles with the enemies of the philosophy is a recipe for failure.

It is foolish to want to pay our masters on behalf of a monopoly and the richest man in the world. The same company that is bed with government calling for greater taxation and control of our lives.

Amazon and the NY Progressives are equally bad.

[Anti Federalist]

I remember the days in this forum when people would recognize who their enemies are and realize applying libertarian principles with the enemies of the philosophy is a recipe for failure.

It is foolish to want to pay our masters on behalf of a monopoly and the richest man in the world. The same company that is bed with government calling for greater taxation and control of our lives.

Amazon and the NY Progressives are equally bad.

Trust me I have no love for Bezos, as person or dispenser of government media organ approved "neaux".

But I am always in favor of anything or anybody that keeps Uncle Sucker from getting their hands on a single dollar more.

That said, I have to give him props for keeping the UK Top Gear guys on air.

This season, number 3, as Grand Tour, they are hitting their old stride again, a real pleasure to watch.