Koch Brothers Back GOP/Dem Plan to Outsource Middle Class Jobs

[kahless]

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/02/11/billionaire-kochs-back-gop-dem-plan-to-outsource-middle-class-american-jobs-2/

The pro-mass immigration Koch brothers’ network of billionaire, donor class organizations is backing a Republican-Democrat coalition that would allow for the swift outsourcing of middle-class American jobs to mostly Indian nationals.
...Eliminating the country caps would immediately fast track up to 300,000 green cards, and eventually American citizenship, to primarily Indian nationals in the U.S. on the H-1B visa, so long as they agree to take high-paying white-collar jobs from Americans.


The Koch's are just another Billionaire elite family that behaves in a manner of a foreign government or terrorist organization from within. The sooner people recognize the cabal of garbage people elites are the enemy, more so than any foreign power or terrorist organization, things will change for the better.

[Brian4Liberty]

Where would the beltway “libertarians” get money if not from the Kochs?

[Superfluous Man]

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/02/11/billionaire-kochs-back-gop-dem-plan-to-outsource-middle-class-american-jobs-2/

The pro-mass immigration Koch brothers’ network of billionaire, donor class organizations is backing a Republican-Democrat coalition that would allow for the swift outsourcing of middle-class American jobs to mostly Indian nationals.

Allowing.

As opposed to not allowing it.

This should not be controversial here. Zero people who support the mission of this website support the government not allowing companies to hire however many Indian nationals they want.

If you don't want to hire them, then fine. Don't. Just don't interfere with others who do.

[specsaregood]

As one that has to deal with Indian "engineers" on a weekly basis, all I have to say is "ugh, that's the last thing we need."

[Superfluous Man]

Where would the beltway “libertarians” get money if not from the Kochs?

Ron Paul got it from tens of thousands of ordinary working-class people for his presidential campaigns. And he lines right up with the Kochs on this.

[specsaregood]

Ron Paul got it from tens of thousands of ordinary working-class people for his presidential campaigns. And he lines right up with the Kochs on this.

I'm not so sure. Ron Paul would like to remove all the restrictions in an ideal environment; just removing the country caps alone does not remove all restrictions and makes the situation worse. Having worked in the industry for 20 years, I can tell you this is bad for the country. But if you want bad for the country, then by all means support it.

[Brian4Liberty]

As one that has to deal with Indian "engineers" on a weekly basis, all I have to say is "ugh, that's the last thing we need."

It’s one of those situations where you have to experience it first-hand before you believe it. Which also means you have to be a tech person. Otherwise, all you know is the propaganda from huge companies like Oracle, Microsoft, Cisco, etc., and their mouthpieces like the the Koch Brothers and US Chamber of commerce.

“The best and brightest”. “The smartest and best educated.” “Jobs that Americans can’t do.” All propaganda talking points.

[Brian4Liberty]

Ron Paul got it from tens of thousands of ordinary working-class people for his presidential campaigns. And he lines right up with the Kochs on this.

Give it a rest, sophist.

[kahless]

Allowing.

As opposed to not allowing it.

This should not be controversial here. Zero people who support the mission of this website support the government not allowing companies to hire however many Indian nationals they want.

If you don't want to hire them, then fine. Don't. Just don't interfere with others who do.

All the people that post here do not support the mission of this site 100% on every issue. I have read enough of your posts to know this to be true for you also.

If you support or are an individual, business or politician that places foreign citizens at an advantage over American citizens then you are the enemy of American citizens.

You want to help people in the third world by giving them jobs then move there, start a business and hire them. Traitors like you are not welcome in this country, should be stripped of citizenship and removed.

[specsaregood]

“The best and brightest”. “The smartest and best educated.” “Jobs that Americans can’t do.” All propaganda talking points.

I've never had to explain what a null value was to an American programmer/engineer, even those without degrees. I have had to explain such and why their code was crashing to multiple Indians, even some with supposed advanced degrees. best and brightest my aching asshole.

[Brian4Liberty]

I've never had to explain what a null value was to an American programmer/engineer, even those without degrees. I have had to explain such and why their code was crashing to multiple Indians, even some with supposed advanced degrees. best and brightest my aching asshole.

And the cultural Marxist conditioning is so effective and strong that if you say that to someone who has not experienced it (or is non-technical), they will just assume that you are some kind of racist.

[kahless]

I've never had to explain what a null value was to an American programmer/engineer, even those without degrees. I have had to explain such and why their code was crashing to multiple Indians, even some with supposed advanced degrees. best and brightest my aching asshole.

India "degrees". Some one who saved enough money to pay for the piece of paper out of the diploma mill or was simply given one by the sponsor recruitment firm.

[Superfluous Man]

India "degrees". Some one who saved enough money to pay for the piece of paper out of the diploma mill or was simply given one by the sponsor recruitment firm.

Those sound like concerns that the would-be employers should think about. Not for the government to decide for them.

[Superfluous Man]

Give it a rest, sophist.

Why does this website have a moderator who comes here just to trash Ron Paul and his allies?

I see that Massie is one of the cosponsors of the House version of this bill. You and I both know Ron Paul would support it too, were he in office.

[Superfluous Man]

I have read enough of your posts to know this to be true for you also.


As far as I am aware, it is not.

That said, I understand. I don't think everybody has to agree on everything. And I'm not saying that disagreements shouldn't be allowed here.

But one would have to disagree with the mission on a pretty basic level and be totally opposed to its most central tenets to disagree with what I said in post #3. Again, as the OP says, it's simply a question of allowing people to do something with their own money, as opposed to not allowing them to.

And while there's nothing odd about any given poster here disagreeing about that, it is odd that a moderator would.

[kahless]

Those sound like concerns that the would-be employers should think about. Not for the government to decide for them.

I agree, with the caveat being the employer is hiring within the US and not if you are betraying your countrymen in mass in the process. Applying the libertarian belief system cross border negates the ability to achieve such a society within the US.

[CaptUSA]

India "degrees". Some one who saved enough money to pay for the piece of paper out of the diploma mill or was simply given one by the sponsor recruitment firm.

Sounds suspiciously like American degrees.

Having worked with countless foreign-born engineers and tech professionals, I'd say the biggest difference is the price the business pays for the labor. When you have foreign nationals hooked on H-1B's, you can be pretty confident you have an employee that won't quit on you until you're ready to get rid of them. Sadly, the same doesn't hold true for American workers. So, the investment is much higher (even if the pay is the same - which it usually isn't) for American workers since they may go to work for a competitor within a few months sometimes.

Hyperbole aside, I don't have an issue with reducing government restrictions, but if they only do it half-assed, it gives advantages to certain companies that they wouldn't have otherwise. It's the recurring problem of trying to untangle the web of restrictions slowly.

[CaptUSA]

I agree, but within the US. Not if you are betraying your countrymen in mass in the process. Applying the libertarian belief system cross border negates the ability to achieve such a society within the US.

No it doesn't. Again, more hyperbole. But you have to apply it consistently.

[CaptUSA]

Why does this website have a moderator who comes here just to trash Ron Paul and his allies?

I see that Massie is one of the cosponsors of the House version of this bill. You and I both know Ron Paul would support it too, were he in office.

Yeah, I'm not sure what's going on with that either. While this bill is incomplete, it's not bad - unless you want protectionism. But it does create artificial incentives to hire foreign workers over domestic workers.

But as someone who has hired tons of people, you'd be surprised how few American resumes come across my desk for some of these roles. I can easily understand the need for opening things up to a wider pool. Now, some would argue that by restricting the foreign labor pool, you'd drive up the market rates for these positions and Americans would start to apply again. But if you are one of those people, you have to understand you are calling for protectionism and the costs of that will be borne by the entire nation. Something, that rarely gets considered.

[kahless]

As far as I am aware, it is not.

That said, I understand. I don't think everybody has to agree on everything. And I'm not saying that disagreements shouldn't be allowed here.

But one would have to disagree with the mission on a pretty basic level and be totally opposed to its most central tenets to disagree with what I said in post #3. Again, as the OP says, it's simply a question of allowing people to do something with their own money, as opposed to not allowing them to.

And while there's nothing odd about any given poster here disagreeing about that, it is odd that a moderator would.

We all want the same things we just differ in how it is achievable. I believe a cross border libertarian system is not possible and prevents the ability for us to live in a libertarian society within the US. That does not mean I do not believe we could and should move towards are libertarian system within the US.

The elites recognize that difference which why they promote and fund open border libertarian candidates and the LP since they have no desire to see such a reality in the US. With no where else to go for funding I believe libertarian candidates and activists accept the money knowing this difference.

[kahless]

No it doesn't. Again, more hyperbole. But you have to apply it consistently.

It drives down wages of American citizens and creates a preference system for cheap foreign labor. Fact, not hyperbole.

[specsaregood]

It drives down wages of American citizens and creates a preference system for cheap foreign labor. Fact, not hyperbole.

He confirmed as much in his previous post.

[CaptUSA]

It drives down wages of American citizens and creates a preference system for cheap foreign labor. Fact, not hyperbole.

The second part of that is true. I've seen it. But the first part is just protectionism - something that RPF used to be against.

As I stated above, the H-1B program creates a captive labor pool that can't leave employers as easily as American workers. So it's cheaper to retain them and the initial investment to get a new employee up to speed is spread over a longer career. That's BS and hurts both labor pools. And it's artificial. So, if you're going to eliminate the caps, you should really reduce most of the H-1B rules as well.

Now, that is NOT protectionism and it also solves the preference system you are rightly concerned about.

[Brian4Liberty]

Why does this website have a moderator who comes here just to trash Ron Paul and his allies?

I see that Massie is one of the cosponsors of the House version of this bill. You and I both know Ron Paul would support it too, were he in office.

Why does this forum have a sophist like you who is constantly trying to put your words in Ron Paul’s mouth? (And lies about other members?)

You have no idea how Ron Paul would vote on this in 2008, or 2019 if he was still there. As far as Massie goes, no one is immune from propaganda campaigns by powerful special interests, especially if they are as closely aligned to beltway libertarians as the Kochs are. And as discussed in this thread, relatively few people know the truth behind this.

I see that nearly every neoconservative (GOP and Dem) in Congress supports this bill too.

[specsaregood]

I see that nearly every neoconservative (GOP and Dem) in Congress supports this bill too.

one thing nearly everybody in congress can agree upon is lowering the wages of the American worker and growing the indentured servant class.

[specsaregood]

And the cultural Marxist conditioning is so effective and strong that if you say that to someone who has not experienced it (or is non-technical), they will just assume that you are some kind of racist.

I will say this, the H1B visa people I have worked with from other countries have generally been good and a few excellent, including: Vietnam, eastern Europe, and china. But I can't think of a single completely positive experience I have had with such workers from India and it's definitely not me looking to have a bad experience.

[Superfluous Man]

Why does this forum have a sophist like you who is constantly trying to put your words in Ron Paul’s mouth? (And lies about other members?)

As far as I'm aware, I've never done either of those.


You have no idea how Ron Paul would vote on this in 2008, or 2019 if he was still there.

Yes, I do. And if you're honest, so do you. It's a no brainer.

[CaptUSA]

I will say this, the H1B visa people I have worked with from other countries have generally been good and a few excellent, including: Vietnam, eastern Europe, and china. But I can't think of a single completely positive experience I have had with such workers from India and it's definitely not me looking to have a bad experience.

I will say this, the most trouble I've had with H-1B people is them having trouble getting renewals or getting hung up at airports. It affects their performance. As to the country of origin, I've had good and bad from most countries.

The most difficult thing I've found with workers from India is the language barrier. They tend to have a great vocabulary compared to other workers, but their accents are hard to comprehend over the phone. And when you have lots of meetings with people scattered about the world, you spend a lot of time on speaker phones. Something about their intonation of English consonants that cuts the connection on and off. Americans and other nationalities speak more fluidly in English and the phones can pick it up. For some reason, the phones tend to drop the beginnings and ends of syllables for Indian speakers. (I've noticed a similar effect with French Canadians, for some reason.)

[Brian4Liberty]

I will say this, the H1B visa people I have worked with from other countries have generally been good and a few excellent, including: Vietnam, eastern Europe, and china. But I can't think of a single completely positive experience I have had with such workers from India and it's definitely not me looking to have a bad experience.

There are good ones from everywhere, including Canada, the UK, Europe and *gasp* India. There are also potentially good American kids who could do the work if they weren’t discouraged from study in this area by the massive domination of the industry by Indians. And then there are the American kids who do get the degree, and can’t find a job because they are not even considered. They will often go into a tangential or unrelated field, but they could have done the work if given the chance.

This is by no means the only concern with a massive increase in H1Bs, but the fraud and insider corruption that takes place with the program should be a concern, even if not the highest priority concern.

[Swordsmyth]

Allowing.

As opposed to not allowing it.

This should not be controversial here. Zero people who support the mission of this website support the government not allowing companies to hire however many Indian nationals they want.

If you don't want to hire them, then fine. Don't. Just don't interfere with others who do.
That is nonsense, immigration controls are necessary to preserve the liberty of the natives.

[Swordsmyth]

No it doesn't. Again, more hyperbole. But you have to apply it consistently.
Yes it does and no matter how often you deny it it will remain true.

[Swordsmyth]

Why does this forum have a sophist like you who is constantly trying to put your words in Ron Paul’s mouth? (And lies about other members?)
Why does this forum tolerate such behavior?

[specsaregood]

There are good ones from everywhere, including Canada, the UK, Europe and *gasp* India. There are also potentially good American kids who could do the work if they weren’t discouraged from study in this area by the massive domination of the industry by Indians. And then there are the American kids who do get the degree, and can’t find a job because they are not even considered. They will often go into a tangential or unrelated field, but they could have done the work if given the chance.

This is by no means the only concern with a massive increase in H1Bs, but the fraud and insider corruption that takes place with the program should be a concern, even if not the highest priority concern.

I think the biggest problems could be solved rather easily; a requirement that anybody on an H1B-visa be paid 10% over the prevailing wage for their position/skillset. If these truly are people with skills that you cant find in a comparable American, then companies should be happy to pay that much more.

[kahless]

I think the biggest problems could be solved rather easily; a requirement that anybody on an H1B-visa be paid 10% over the prevailing wage for their position/skillset.

That would probably be allot easier to slip in than limits on immigration. They probably figure out ways around it. Something like if the position was in San Francisco they would use the average salary in Arkansas as the 10% metric.

[specsaregood]

That would probably be allot easier to slip in than limits on immigration. They probably figure out ways around it. Something like if the position was in San Francisco they would use the average salary in Arkansas as the 10% metric.

generally where the prevailing wage standard is used, it is specific to a locale. but yeah, anything can be cheated.