Venezuela Propaganda Debunked - People Are Against Coup [Archive]

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Peace Piper

01-27-2019, 11:17 PM

Swordsmyth

01-27-2019, 11:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMplqEpfGhs

You may not agree politically with Dore (no doubt most here don't) but
give him credit for calling it like he sees it. Most so called big D "Democrats"
despise him (look at DU).

And you may not agree with Abby Martin but she has spent a lot of time in
Venezuela, while most of the people that bash her (and the country) haven't
ever been to South America once.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3M7l8ved_rYQ45AVzS0RGA

Abby Martin- Empire Files
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG29FnXZm4F5U8xpqs1cs1Q
I don't need to watch that video or decide whether it is lying or telling the truth because we should not be intervening either way.

What I will say is that if this video is true that just proves that we shouldn't be allowing immigration from places like Venezuela.

I will also say that they should be unanimously revolting.

Peace Piper

01-27-2019, 11:50 PM

"U.S. Plot In Venezuela FAILING" Says Caracas Reporter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98pBLXe7Bmk

1088531713649713153

1088531560926711811

1088530977226440706

Nothing new on Rand's twitter

angelatc

01-28-2019, 01:48 AM

I am shocked...shocked I tell you...to see the liberals supporting Maduro.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 03:23 AM

I am shocked...shocked I tell you...to see the liberals supporting Maduro.

Well, look at it this way, you are on the same side as Pelosi, Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Bernie Sander, Obama and co, so its not like all the liberals are against this foreign intervention. Also there is nothing wrong with supporting the will of the Venezuelan people. Its not the same as supporting the man himself.

spudea

01-28-2019, 07:22 AM

Umm no, the way she speaks with disdain towards private companies that are anti Maduro.... Like how dare they resist socialism! If they just let Maduro sieze all property, Venezuela will be a paradise just like Bernie said!

I suffer no delusions on how freedom and capitalism came to be in this world. The French assisted our revolution, do we call them international criminals that aided a coup? The American Patriots that fought the British were definetly in the minority. So her point that the 30% pro Maduro people outnumbered the anti Maduro people is a flawed perspective.

Krugminator2

01-28-2019, 07:41 AM

devil21

01-28-2019, 07:57 AM

That's a good video and definitely worth a watch. Is it any surprise that the CIA backed "President" Guaido comes from a Jesuit school, George Washington U.? It shouldn't be.

LOL@80% of Venezuelans were like who the fuck is Guaido?

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:28 AM

Well, look at it this way, you are on the same side as Pelosi, Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Bernie Sander, Obama and co, so its not like all the liberals are against this foreign intervention. Also there is nothing wrong with supporting the will of the Venezuelan people. Its not the same as supporting the man himself.

Says the guy who worships Che.

I'm not pro-intervention, but I'm not so dedicated to preserving socialism that I have to make up conspiracy theories to explain why people are in the streets protesting either. Even if the elections weren't rigged, democracy is simply enslavement of the minority. Socialism is enslavement of the entire population. The man is a greedy socialist pig, and his government has failed miserably.

FFS -the people there are literally starving. Nothing the left can say will convince me that "the people!" are supporting the criminal Maduro.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:30 AM

Who cares what the people want? Marxism is a human rights violation. It isn't a matter of what the majority Venezuelan people want. They count for nothing in this. If 51% vote to enslave the other 49%, that doesn't mean they should be allowed to. The only question is will the US be better or worse off intervening.

Here is how an actual libertarian responds, not this fucking anti-business crap from someone funded by Venezuelan state TV.

1088176187833241601

Peace Piper isn't Libertarian. The only things he posts here are energy propaganda pieces and now pro-socialist slants. This is the remnants of the anti-war movement, but they'll sell out on other issues every single time. That's why they're chanting about how this is a war for oil.

And Tusli Gabbard is a socialist. She makes a lot of anti-war noise, but socialism isn't a peaceful philosophy. She's just a pretty face to hind the ugly rot at the core.

ThePaleoLibertarian

01-28-2019, 08:43 AM

Who cares what "the people" want? What relevance does that have? Is this a forum full of (small d) democrats? Awful leadership that destroys a civilization and its relative prosperity isn't somehow okay because hordes of morons hold some stupid desire. If the Venezuelan people want Maduro, that just means the masses in Venezuela are even dumber than most other countries, which is saying something.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:50 AM

And you may not agree with Abby Martin but she has spent a lot of time in
Venezuela, while most of the people that bash her (and the country) haven't
ever been to South America once.

Telesur is state-funded Venezuela TV. Abby Martin is funded by the Maduro regime. I wonder why that wasn't disclosed in your post?

Of course I agree the U.S should stay out. My posting history is clear on that, but denying the humanitarian crisis is impossible.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:52 AM

Who cares what "the people" want? What relevance does that have? Is this a forum full of (small d) democrats? .

Peace Piper and Che are openly socialists. This is what we get for trying to partner with the left. We deserve this.

Slave Mentality

01-28-2019, 08:53 AM

CaptUSA

01-28-2019, 09:01 AM

Telesur is state-funded Venezuela TV. Abby Martin is funded by the Maduro regime. I wonder why that wasn't disclosed in your post?

Of course I agree the U.S should stay out. My posting history is clear on that, but denying the humanitarian crisis is impossible.

I'm not a leftist - just a non-interventionist. But I don't think we should deny the US involvement in that humanitarian crisis, either. Not only should the US government stay out of it, they should have never gotten involved in the first place. Ah, but this is what the empire does.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 09:02 AM

And you may not agree with Abby Martin but she has spent a lot of time in
Venezuela, while most of the people that bash her (and the country) haven't
ever been to South America once.

Here's something written by someone who lives there and isn't on Maduro's payroll:

Andrés Gómez
14 hours ago
A lot of disinformation and flat out lies here by Abby Martin & Mike Prysner. Yes, we have the #1 oil reserves, but most of that oil is already owned by either China or Russia just like all our other nations resources (Canada's here too). Every few months Maduro pawns off a bit more of unextracted oil to be delivered in the future in exchange for a loan from them, and that's how they've been doing it, not through the US.

Also, the "privatization" of PDVSA (national oil company) is because it is bankrupt and hundreds of billions in debt, and has been hemorrhaging money for over a decade, because that's what happens when a tyrannical regimes puts the military in charge of something petrochemical engineers should be. And PDVSA workers have been protesting yearly to change how the company is run, most recently protesting in March & April of 2018, and probably will start doing so again because PDVSA has been functioning at only 40% capacity and its said it might even get worse. Nice of you to not mention that

And, the US didn't bankrupt us. That's a myth. It's these people's economic policies that did it, and everyone predicted it; you can google BBC articles from 2006 & 2007 in awe of how mediocre Chávez dealt with inflation and warning that it'd lead to a crisis eventually. And when you see that their idea of "solving" the inflation is simply striking 3 ceros off the currency twice, and then strike 5 ceros last year, you kinda see why.

Plus, that's not mentioning that we have always been a rentier economy that imports everything (almost literally) so, when they make dollars illegal (literally, there was even a scandal when Chávez's daughter was photographed with dollars and people complained about hypocrisy) and don't provide any channels for any type of stores to import products, they resort "black market" dollar, which are just more expensive and bought by 3rd parties, to do so and that's another thing that they've turned a blind eye to and allowed to exacerbate inflation & scarcity. That is why we're in crisis.

And, did Martin seriously say the US tried to blow up Maduro on stage? That drone with a firecracker on top... Seriously?

And Martin just casually skimmed over how the national assembly was elected in a landslide election, and very nicely didn't mention the fact Maduro unconstitutionally displaced him and replaced him with a new national assembly made up of members of his party.

And the fact she's talking about "oligarchs in Venezuela controlling the means of production" but failing to mention how the Government had their own network of production in MERCAL & CLAP, but they bankrupted them, and how Diosdado Cabello, the biggest oligarch in the country, has used cannibalistic mega-capitalist policies to force Kellogs, Oreo - and countless other companies - into bankruptcy and out of the country so he could take over their factories, and has done the same for years to Lorenzo Mendoza & POLAR, forcing them to sell products at a loss, without giving them access to importing "divisas" - which is what businesses need to import materials to produce - gradually trying to force him out of the country.

At this point I'm not really bothering anymore with this propaganda sponsored by TeleSUR, but it's all either flat out lies, or carefully orchestrated half-truths.

It's crazy that these same people can denounce Bolsonaro, when Maduro is quite literally what people fear Bolsonaro will become. Someone who sells out his country's national resources for money; allows his troops to attack BBC journalists (which is why the BBC has been outspoken about Venezuela); kicks out CNN Español & NT24 off the airwaves; slaughters protesters but justifies it saying their "terrorists" despite on youtube being able to see old ladies with signs being run over by tanks or unconscious old men being beat on the ground...

But it's all fine 'cause he panders with fake "anti-imperialist" rhetoric despite being thoroughly in the pockets of Chinese imperialism.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 09:05 AM

Telesur is state-funded Venezuela TV. Abby Martin is funded by the Maduro regime. I wonder why that wasn't disclosed in your post?

Of course I agree the U.S should stay out. My posting history is clear on that, but denying the humanitarian crisis is impossible.

Maybe because the sanctions by the US cut off her funding from the Venezuelan govt. She said it here, just listen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6cGKTxEGEQ

juleswin

01-28-2019, 09:12 AM

Peace Piper and Che are openly socialists. This is what we get for trying to partner with the left. We deserve this.

Lol, openly socialist. If its so open, I bet you can easily find examples of me advocating socialism. Good luck find them

Small amendment, I have always struggled with what to do with a nation's mineral resources. I have no problem with that resourse being mined and the profits given to the people. Alaska has a system where dividends from their oil is paid to every resident of the state. That is about the only form of socialism I do not have a problem with

juleswin

01-28-2019, 09:17 AM

Says the guy who worships Che.

I'm not pro-intervention, but I'm not so dedicated to preserving socialism that I have to make up conspiracy theories to explain why people are in the streets protesting either. Even if the elections weren't rigged, democracy is simply enslavement of the minority. Socialism is enslavement of the entire population. The man is a greedy socialist pig, and his government has failed miserably.

FFS -the people there are literally starving. Nothing the left can say will convince me that "the people!" are supporting the criminal Maduro.

Che is a cool looking anti imperialist mother f*cker who died fighting imperialists pigs and for that he has a bit of my respect. This makes him in my book a strong symbol of anti imperialism and that is why I use him as my avatar. Also, he looks cool as hell in a beret :)

Just for the record, every country in this world even Hong Kong or Venezuela is run with a mixed economic system. A little bit of capitalism and socialism, there are countries with higher levels of govt ownership of production, taxes than Venezuela and they are not called socialist. Also there isn't one country in this world(apart from the strict dictatorship and monarchies) that isn't run with some form of democratic rule. The people who think democratic republics are that much different from democracies are as delusional as the people who think there is a big difference between democratic socialism and socialist democracies. Democracies is sadly the way societies are organized, so if its enslavement in Venezuela, it is also enslavement in the US where 51% vote will win you an elected seat.

What we are seeing now is an economic war on Venezuela and you don't have to be a conspiracy theoriest to see it, just listen to the words and bills proposed by the US leaders.

Btw, there are starving people every where, so why are we so concerned about the people starving in Venezuela? There is always an excuse to have when trying to take another countries resources. I am sure its hard for u to believe that the people of the socialist country in Libya supported Gaddafi or people in Syria supported the murderous Assad. What you have to understand is this, during foreign invasions people more than ever tend to support their leaders good or bad. Since the failed coup of 2001, the US has been trying to regain the ownership of that country

specsaregood

01-28-2019, 09:23 AM

Here's something written by someone who lives there and isn't on Maduro's payroll:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx_wvNBXcAAOVud.jpg

juleswin

01-28-2019, 09:32 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx_wvNBXcAAOVud.jpg

Article on Buzzfeed posted on Jan 23 and last updated on Jan 23 says this

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/hayesbrown/venezuela-opposition-juan-guaido-interim-president

Venezuela has spent most of the last decade in the midst of an economic crisis unlike anything seen in the region before. Basic staples are missing from store shelves with no money for most people to buy what still remains as inflation has continued to swell. In 2018, it was projected to top 1,000,000%. More than 3 million people have fled Venezuela for neighboring countries and the country's maternal and infant mortality rates have been steadily rising. Maduro has kept a firm grip on power throughout these crises, imprisoning political opponents and silencing dissent.

I dunno what year the article he read was written but this is the current very much anti Maduro stuff posted on the website.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 09:40 AM

I'm not a leftist - just a non-interventionist. But I don't think we should deny the US involvement in that humanitarian crisis, either. Not only should the US government stay out of it, they should have never gotten involved in the first place. Ah, but this is what the empire does.

We aren't nearly as involved as the communists on this site are pretending. China and Russia have actual assets in Venezuela, and Venezuela is heavily in debt to them as well.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 09:45 AM

What we are seeing now is an economic war on Venezuela and you don't have to be a conspiracy theoriest to see it, just listen to the words and bills proposed by the US leaders.

What we are seeing is the inevitable collapse of a socialist economy.

Just for the record, every country in this world even Hong Kong or Venezuela is run with a mixed economic system.

Oh, the "it's not really the socialism!" argument. Yes, it is really socialism.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 09:46 AM

We aren't nearly as involved as the communists on this site are pretending. China and Russia have actual assets in Venezuela, and Venezuela is heavily in debt to them as well.

Russia had assets in Ukraine and Syria but the US were still able to sabotage those 2 countries. People like you just cannot accept the fact that the US has influence in many regions and can strike down countries that oppose them.

Also look at the countries surrounding Venezuela, most of those countries have been captured by the US. This makes it that much easier for US to conduct economic warfare in Venezuela.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 09:49 AM

What we are seeing now is an economic war on Venezuela and you don't have to be a conspiracy theoriest to see it, just listen to the words and bills proposed by the US leaders.

Russia had assets in Ukraine and Syria but the US were still able to sabotage those 2 countries. People like you just cannot accept the fact that the US has influence in many regions and can strike down countries that oppose them.

https://twitter.com/_alvaropalacios/status/1088260526034042882

1088260526034042882

Translated: "The United States wants Venezuela's oil", of course, because Russia, China and Cuba want Venezuela's arepas and the latest album from Chino and Nacho.

specsaregood

01-28-2019, 09:53 AM

Translated: "The United States wants Venezuela's oil", of course, because Russia, China and Cuba want Venezuela's arepas and the latest album from Chino and Nacho.

We aren't going to war for oil any longer. Not now that we are the #1 producer and can produce it cheaper than anyone else.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 09:54 AM

What we are seeing is the inevitable collapse of a socialist economy.

Oh, the "it's not really the socialism!" argument. Yes, it is really socialism.

Just before you run out calling me a socialist, I do not support everything said in this video. Just listen to the stats about Venezuelan economy under Chavez and Maduro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_JhRVlIR-c

juleswin

01-28-2019, 09:58 AM

https://twitter.com/_alvaropalacios/status/1088260526034042882

1088260526034042882

Translated: "The United States wants Venezuela's oil", of course, because Russia, China and Cuba want Venezuela's arepas and the latest album from Chino and Nacho.

I think the difference between US and China/Russia is that one wants to take it by force and the other one wants to make a deal. I am sure a libertarian of your type can understand the diff between the 2 methods.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:00 AM

Maybe because the sanctions by the US cut off her funding from the Venezuelan govt. She said it here, just listen

[video=/video]

No they didn't The Us sanctions were against certain officials in Venezuela, not the government itself. They were put in place to keep the socialists from looting the public coffers and moving the assets to the evil empire they hate so much, which is us, naturally

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:01 AM

I think the difference between US and China/Russia is that one wants to take it by force and the other one wants to make a deal. I am sure a libertarian of your type can understand the diff between the 2 methods.

If we wanted to take it by force, it would be ours already.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:05 AM

Just before you run out calling me a socialist, I do not support everything said in this video. Just listen to the stats about Venezuelan economy under Chavez and Maduro.

[vJhRVlIR-c[/video]

I don't know how many times I have to tell people this, but I don't watch video, especially when facts that need checking are involved. It's a tool of fools. We have shown you facts and figures relating to the socialization of the economy. You refuse to acknowledge any of it, then keep repeating your nonsense that Venezuela isn't really socialist.

It is, and it is also collapsing as predicted under it's own weight, no US intervention required.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:06 AM

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:10 AM

If we wanted to take it by force, it would be ours already.

When you still pretend to care about human rights, the rule of law etc etc, you can't just take it by force without a good reason. You have to create a reason, like make the people starve and then say that you are only there to help them. Think of Libya or Syria, they need to create the right narrative before they attack. This is what we are seeing now i.e. them and you trying to create the right narrative.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:12 AM

We aren't going to war for oil any longer. Not now that we are the #1 producer and can produce it cheaper than anyone else.

Here's something I didn't know, and this is probably more relative to the flurry of current events than the traditional oil boogity boogity from the leftists.
https://twitter.com/GeraMautone/status/1088601225627619328

1088601225627619328

Translated: And Russia was negotiating the installation of a military air base in Venezuela in exchange for renegotiating the debt.

It was stopped by investigations and denunciations from the opposition.

If that is not intervention, I do not know what it is.

No way is the Pentagon going to sit back and casually allow Venezuela to put a Russian air base in South America. This makes a whole lot more sense than the oil noise.

ETA: A quick Google search indicates it was all over the news a few months ago, but since it didn't serve the interests of the left as it relates to Trump's alleged bromance with Putin, we didn't hear about it.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:21 AM

Here's something I didn't know, and this is probably more relative to the flurry of current events than the traditional oil boogity boogity from the leftists.
https://twitter.com/GeraMautone/status/1088601225627619328

1088601225627619328

Translated: And Russia was negotiating the installation of a military air base in Venezuela in exchange for renegotiating the debt.

It was stopped by investigations and denunciations from the opposition.

If that is not intervention, I do not know what it is.

No way is the Pentagon going to sit back and casually allow Venezuela to put a Russian air base in South America. This makes a whole lot more sense than the oil noise.

Yea, that explains why they tried their first coup attemp in 1998. They saw the future and decided to act before anyone knew what was happening. You people just cannot admit you are wrong.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:23 AM

I don't know how many times I have to tell people this, but I don't watch video, especially when facts that need checking are involved. It's a tool of fools. We have shown you facts and figures relating to the socialization of the economy. You refuse to acknowledge any of it, then keep repeating your nonsense that Venezuela isn't really socialist.

It is, and it is also collapsing as predicted under it's own weight, no US intervention required.

The mainly states that the the private economy controlled 2/3 of the economy, emplyed a higher % of workers than the govt and out of pocket private health expenditure was 55%. Just listed some economic stats that question this socialism tag put on the country

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:24 AM

Russian Mercenaries Descend On Venezuela To Help Protect Maduro's Regime (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26174/russian-mercenaries-reportedly-descend-on-venezuela-to-help-protect-maduros-regime)

Russian Private Military Contractors Are Reportedly In Venezuela To Protect Maduro (https://taskandpurpose.com/russian-private-military-contractors-are-reportedly-in-venezuela-to-protect-maduro)

But we're the evil people meddling in innocent Venezuela, according to the commie trash that posts here.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:31 AM

The mainly states that the the private economy controlled 2/3 of the economy, emplyed a higher % of workers than the govt and out of pocket private health expenditure was 55%. Just listed some economic stats that question this socialism tag put on the country

And again, we've shown you over and over that as the government under both Chavez and Maduro took over more and more of the economy, the faster it all started to fall apart, exactly as predicted.

There was never any question that Venezuela was socialist until it failed as predicted. For the better part of the 00's, the left was using Venezuela as a proud example of how socialism was the answer.

This is always the same commie talking points: Socialism is good, and it works, until it fails then it's not really socialism.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:34 AM

Yea, that explains why they tried their first coup attemp in 1998. They saw the future and decided to act before anyone knew what was happening. You people just cannot admit you are wrong.

"You people?" I am quoting a Venezuelan national. Please feel free to explain to him how he is wrong. If you buy him food he will probably pretend to listen to you.

I am not talking about 1998, this dates to December 2018.

And I'm not familiar with the 1998 coup attempt. Cuba attempted a coup in 1992. Chavez was elected in 1998.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:41 AM

"You people?" I am quoting a Venezuelan national. Please feel free to explain to him how he is wrong. If you buy him food he will probably pretend to listen to you.

I am not talking about 1998, this dates to December 2018.

And I'm not familiar with the 1998 coup attempt. Cuba attempted a coup in 1992. Chavez was elected in 1998.

So who said this

No way is the Pentagon going to sit back and casually allow Venezuela to put a Russian air base in South America. This makes a whole lot more sense than the oil noise.

You or the venezuelan citizen?

Well, familiarize yourself with the 1998 coup cos this is really the start of the story between the Imperialist US and the Chavistas.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:48 AM

And again, we've shown you over and over that as the government under both Chavez and Maduro took over more and more of the economy, the faster it all started to fall apart, exactly as predicted.

There was never any question that Venezuela was socialist until it failed as predicted. For the better part of the 00's, the left was using Venezuela as a proud example of how socialism was the answer.

This is always the same commie talking points: Socialism is good, and it works, until it fails then it's not really socialism.

Sad you couldn't watch the video and I have to do a bit more research to find out where he got his numbers from. Not making any promises but will try and do it some other time.

Just like having socialist policies doesn't automatically make you a socialist. Yes, they had socialist policies like nationalizing their oil industry and having a welfare state and this is what the leftist latched onto and declared the country a socialist.

Btw, one thing u would have seen from watching the video is that when Bernie "the dem sheepdog" Sander was praising Venezuela, it was still run by the neo liberal govt supported by the US all the way back in 1980. 18 yrs before Chavez was elected.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:55 AM

This is not just me saying this, but the role of sanctions is not to prevent socialists from looting anything...

YES THEY WERE! Just because you don't want to admit it doesn't make it false.

FFS - you've seen this list before. Here is the list of sanctions (https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/venezuela/). Up until the past few months They are against specific members of the Venezuelan government. Their names are literally spelled out in the sanctions.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm583:
This designation, pursuant to Executive Order (E.O.) 13850, targets seven individuals, including former Venezuelan National Treasurer Claudia Patricia Diaz Guillen (Diaz) and Raul Antonio Gorrin Belisario (Gorrin), who bribed the Venezuelan Office of the National Treasury (ONT, or Oficina Nacional del Tesoro) in order to conduct illicit foreign exchange operations in Venezuela. In addition to Diaz and Gorrin, OFAC designated or blocked five other individuals and 23 entities, pursuant to E.O. 13850, for their roles in the bribery scheme, and identified one private aircraft as blocked property.

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/09/286190.htm
Today, the United States imposed sanctions on four current or former officials of the Government of Venezuela: First Lady and Former Attorney General Cilia Adela Flores de Maduro, Executive Vice President Delcy Eloina Rodriguez Gomez, Minister of Communication and Information Jorge Jesus Rodriguez Gomez, and Minister of Defense Vladimir Padrino Lopez.

In addition, the United States has designated additional individuals and entities that are part of a network supporting Rafael Alfredo Sarria Diaz, a key front person for sanctioned Venezuelan President of the illegitimate Constituent Assembly, Diosdado Cabello Rondon.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm495
oday, the U.S. Department of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) designated four members of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro’s inner circle, including First Lady and former Attorney General and President of the National Assembly Cilia Adela Flores de Maduro. OFAC also targeted a network supporting a key front man for designated President of Venezuela’s National Constituent Assembly (ANC) Diosdado Cabello Rondon, and identified as blocked property a $20 million U.S.-based private jet as belonging to Cabello’s front man.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0389
Today the U.S. Department of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) designated Venezuelan national Diosdado Cabello Rondón (Cabello) pursuant to Executive Order (E.O.) 13692, for being a current or former official of the Government of Venezuela. OFAC also designated three other individuals for being current or former officials, or for acting for or on behalf of designated individuals as key figures in Cabello’s corruption network. Those individuals are José David Cabello Rondón, Cabello’s brother, designated for being a current or former official of the Government of Venezuela; Marleny Josefina Contreras Hernández, Cabello’s wife, designated for being a current or former official of the Government of Venezuela; and Rafael Alfredo Sarria Diaz, Cabello’s front man (“testaferro”), designated for acting for or on behalf of Cabello. In addition, OFAC blocked three companies that are owned or controlled by Sarria in Florida: SAI Advisors Inc., Noor Plantation Investments LLC, and 11420 Corp. OFAC further blocked 14 properties in Florida and New York, owned by Sarria directly or through his companies.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0318
As a result of today’s actions, all assets of the following current or former officials of the Government of Venezuela that are subject to U.S. jurisdiction are frozen, and U.S. persons are generally prohibited from dealing with them:

Américo Alex Mata García (Mata),
Willian Antonio Contreras (Contreras)
Nelson Reinaldo Lepaje Salazar (Lepaje),
Carlos Alberto Rotondaro Cova (Rotondaro)

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0247

Rodolfo Clemente Marco Torres
Francisco Jose Rangel Gomez
Fabio Enrique Zavarse Pabon,
Gerardo Jose Izquierdo Torres,

The list goes on. Every single sanction is against a corrupt socialist government official who is looting the coffers and attempting to off-shore assets in the USA.

EVERY SINGLE SANCTION IS AGAINST A CORRUPT SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL WHO IS LOOTING THE COFFERS AND ATTEMPTING TO OFF-SHORE ASSETS IN THE USA

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:59 AM

Sad you couldn't watch the video and I have to do a bit more research to find out where he got his numbers from. Not making any promises but will try and do it some other time.

Just like having socialist policies doesn't automatically make you a socialist. .

I am going to make cookies. In my first batch, I'm using chocolate chips. In my second batch, I'm using little balls of dog shit. In the third batch, I'm using 50% chocolate chips and 50% dog shit.

Just having a little dog shit in my cookies doesn't mean they're not utter garbage, then.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 11:01 AM

So who said this

You or the venezuelan citizen?

His remarks are in italics, mine are not.

Well, familiarize yourself with the 1998 coup.

Like I said before, there wasn't a coup in 1998. There was an election.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 11:04 AM

Just like having socialist policies doesn't automatically make you a socialist. Yes, they had socialist policies like nationalizing their oil industry and having a welfare state and this is what the leftist latched onto and declared the country a socialist.
.

FFS. His (Chavez) party was literally named the United Socialist Party Of Venezuela.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 11:16 AM

Btw, one thing u would have seen from watching the video is that when Bernie "the dem sheepdog" Sander was praising Venezuela, it was still run by the neo liberal govt supported by the US all the way back in 1980. 18 yrs before Chavez was elected.

They've only been around since 1958, and they've been a banana republic the whole time. From the inception, the political parties agreed to share power, and only allow their selected candidates on the ballots. Chavez attempted a non-democratic military coup and was jailed for it in 1992. The president freed him in the name of solidarity, and then Chavez won an election in 1998.

He proceeded to throw his opposition in jail, nationalize the biggest industries (with disastrous consequences), and loot the treasury to benefit his family and cronies. (His daughter is the richest person in the country, naturally.)

In what world is it shocking that a military member who attempted an illegal coup would run things like a dictator as soon as he gained power?

juleswin

01-28-2019, 11:17 AM

His remarks are in italics, mine are not.

Like I said before, there wasn't a coup in 1998. There was an election.

Oops, 2002 coup. Will try and reply to your other posts. Driving right now.

dannno

01-28-2019, 11:38 AM

Here's something written by someone who lives there and isn't on Maduro's payroll:

Sounds like somebody could use some bitcoin.

Todd

01-28-2019, 12:00 PM

I don't think you have to be a Socialist to know something is not quite right with the media coverage on this. I saw some analysis of of the photos of some of those "protesters" in Venezuala. Sure do have some high quality clothes on and professionally manicured hands to be part of the starving masses.

RonZeplin

01-28-2019, 12:01 PM

Sounds like somebody could use some bitcoin.

Presidente Maduro?

Sanctions:

United States (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Pages/venezuela.aspx)

Statutes:

Venezuela Defense of Human Rights and Civil Society Act of 2014 (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/venezuela_publ_113_278.pdf)
International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA), 50 U.S.C. §§ 1701-1706 (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Documents/ieepa.pdf)
National Emergencies Act (NEA), 50 U.S.C. §§ 1601-1651 (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Documents/nea.pdf)

Executive Orders:

13850 (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/venezuela_eo_13850.pdf) - Blocking Property of Additional Persons Contributing to the Situation in Venezuela (November 1, 2018)
13835 (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/venezuela_eo_13835.pdf) – Prohibiting Certain Additional Transactions with Respect to Venezuela (May 21, 2018)
13827 (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/13827.pdf) – Taking Additional Steps to Deal with the Situation in Venezuela (March 19, 2018)
13808 (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/13808.pdf) – Imposing Additional Sanctions with Respect to the Situation in Venezuela (August 24, 2017)
13692 (https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/13692.pdf) – Blocking Property and Suspending Entry of Certain Persons Contributing to the Situation in Venezuela (March 8, 2015)

https://www.wikitribune.com/article/84767/ (https://www.wikitribune.com/article/84767/)

angelatc

01-28-2019, 12:13 PM

Presidente Maduro?

They are against specific members of the Venezuelan government. Their names are literally spelled out in the sanctions.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm583:
This designation, pursuant to Executive Order (E.O.) 13850, targets seven individuals, including former Venezuelan National Treasurer Claudia Patricia Diaz Guillen (Diaz) and Raul Antonio Gorrin Belisario (Gorrin), who bribed the Venezuelan Office of the National Treasury (ONT, or Oficina Nacional del Tesoro) in order to conduct illicit foreign exchange operations in Venezuela. In addition to Diaz and Gorrin, OFAC designated or blocked five other individuals and 23 entities, pursuant to E.O. 13850, for their roles in the bribery scheme, and identified one private aircraft as blocked property.
https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/09/286190.htm
Today, the United States imposed sanctions on four current or former officials of the Government of Venezuela: First Lady and Former Attorney General Cilia Adela Flores de Maduro, Executive Vice President Delcy Eloina Rodriguez Gomez, Minister of Communication and Information Jorge Jesus Rodriguez Gomez, and Minister of Defense Vladimir Padrino Lopez.

In addition, the United States has designated additional individuals and entities that are part of a network supporting Rafael Alfredo Sarria Diaz, a key front person for sanctioned Venezuelan President of the illegitimate Constituent Assembly, Diosdado Cabello Rondon.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm495
oday, the U.S. Department of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) designated four members of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro’s inner circle, including First Lady and former Attorney General and President of the National Assembly Cilia Adela Flores de Maduro. OFAC also targeted a network supporting a key front man for designated President of Venezuela’s National Constituent Assembly (ANC) Diosdado Cabello Rondon, and identified as blocked property a $20 million U.S.-based private jet as belonging to Cabello’s front man.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0389
Today the U.S. Department of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) designated Venezuelan national Diosdado Cabello Rondón (Cabello) pursuant to Executive Order (E.O.) 13692, for being a current or former official of the Government of Venezuela. OFAC also designated three other individuals for being current or former officials, or for acting for or on behalf of designated individuals as key figures in Cabello’s corruption network. Those individuals are José David Cabello Rondón, Cabello’s brother, designated for being a current or former official of the Government of Venezuela; Marleny Josefina Contreras Hernández, Cabello’s wife, designated for being a current or former official of the Government of Venezuela; and Rafael Alfredo Sarria Diaz, Cabello’s front man (“testaferro”), designated for acting for or on behalf of Cabello. In addition, OFAC blocked three companies that are owned or controlled by Sarria in Florida: SAI Advisors Inc., Noor Plantation Investments LLC, and 11420 Corp. OFAC further blocked 14 properties in Florida and New York, owned by Sarria directly or through his companies.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0318
As a result of today’s actions, all assets of the following current or former officials of the Government of Venezuela that are subject to U.S. jurisdiction are frozen, and U.S. persons are generally prohibited from dealing with them:

Américo Alex Mata García (Mata),
Willian Antonio Contreras (Contreras)
Nelson Reinaldo Lepaje Salazar (Lepaje),
Carlos Alberto Rotondaro Cova (Rotondaro)

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0247
Rodolfo Clemente Marco Torres
Francisco Jose Rangel Gomez
Fabio Enrique Zavarse Pabon,
Gerardo Jose Izquierdo Torres,

The list goes on. Every single sanction is against a corrupt socialist government official who is looting the coffers and attempting to off-shore assets in the USA.

EVERY SINGLE SANCTION IS AGAINST A CORRUPT SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL WHO IS LOOTING THE COFFERS AND ATTEMPTING TO OFF-SHORE ASSETS IN THE USA

specsaregood

01-28-2019, 12:40 PM

angelatc

01-28-2019, 12:45 PM

So what you are saying is that the truth is that Abby Martin should have no problems getting paid by the actual govt of Venezuela, if they had it to give.

What I am saying is that there are no US sanctions against the government of Venezuela. Every single sanction is against a named individual, and is a prohibition against moving assets into the United States.

specsaregood

01-28-2019, 12:55 PM

What I am saying is that there are no US sanctions against the government of Venezuela. Every single sanction is against a named individual, and is a prohibition against moving assets into the United States.

Indeed. Seems like a rather restrained use of sanctions.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 01:18 PM

US Imposes Economic Sanctions on Venezuela

On 24 August 2017, President Trump signed an Executive Order (Order) imposing additional sanctions on Venezuela. The Order states that these sanctions, which primarily target the Government of Venezuela and the Venezuelan oil industry, are in response to the deepening political and humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. The Order adds to a growing list of restrictions that apply to Venezuela, which is already subject to a US arms embargo and US licensing requirements on exports and reexports of specific categories of goods, software, and technology to military end-users or for military end-uses in Venezuela. The Order also follows the designation as Specially Designated Nationals of various Venezuelan government officials (including President Nicolas Maduro) pursuant to Executive Order 13692 of 8 March 2015 (see prior blog post here regarding this order).

In conjunction with this Order, the US Department of the Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) issued four general licenses authorizing certain transactions involving Venezuela, including transactions to wind down existing contracts, that would otherwise be prohibited under the Order. Finally, OFAC published new Frequently Asked Questions regarding these restrictions and general licenses.

Prohibited Transactions
The Order prohibits "US Persons" (i.e., entities organized under US laws and their non-US branches; individuals and entities physically located in the United States; and US citizens and permanent resident aliens, wherever located or employed) from engaging in any transactions related to, providing financing for, or otherwise dealing in the following:

New debt with a maturity of greater than 90 days of Petróleos de Venezuela S.A. (PdVSA);
New debt with a maturity of greater than 30 days (other than the debt of PdVSA, which is subject to the 90 day limit discussed above) or new equity of the Government of Venezuela (including any political subdivision, agency, or instrumentality thereof such as the Central Bank of Venezuela and PDVSA as well as any person owned or controlled by, or acting for or on behalf of, the Government of Venezuela);
Bonds issued by the Government of Venezuela prior to the effective date of the Order (25 August 2017); and
Dividend payments or other distributions of profits to the Government of Venezuela from any entity owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by the Government of Venezuela.
US Persons are also prohibited under the Order from purchasing, directly or indirectly, securities from the Government of Venezuela, other than securities qualifying as new debt not targeted by the above provisions of the Order because the debt has a maturity of less than or equal to 90 days (for PdVSA) or 30 days (for the Government of Venezuela).

OFAC’s FAQs provide examples of what constitute "new debt" and "new equity" for purposes of the Order and clarify that the above prohibitions apply to entities that are 50% or more owned by the Government of Venezuela.

General Licenses
As noted above, OFAC issued four general licenses to authorize certain transactions that would otherwise be prohibited by the Order, as follows:

General License 1 authorizes US Persons to engage in certain transactions ordinarily incident and necessary to winding down contracts or other agreements that were in effect prior to the effective date of the Order (25 August 2017) but that would now be prohibited under the Order. Such wind down transactions may be carried out under this general license through September 24, 2017.
General License 2 authorizes US Persons to engage in transactions where the only Venezuelan government entities involved are CITGO Holding, Inc. and any of its subsidiaries.
General License 3 authorizes US Persons to engage in transactions related to, provide financing for, and otherwise deal in bonds that (i) are specified in the Annex to General License 3 or (ii) were issued prior to the effective date of the Order by US Person entities owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by the Government of Venezuela (e.g., CITGO Holding, Inc.).
General License 4 authorizes US Persons to engage in certain transactions related to, provide financing for, and otherwise deal in new debt related to the export or reexport from the United States or by US Persons of agricultural commodities, medicine, medical devices, or replacement parts and components for medical devices to Venezuela, or to persons in third countries purchasing specifically for resale to Venezuela. These exports and reexports must be licensed or otherwise authorized under the Export Administration Regulations, 15 C.F.R. Parts 730-774.
The foregoing is intended only to provide a general summary of recent developments regarding the expansion of US sanctions targeting Venezuela. If you have any questions about how these changes might affect your company or if you require advice on any specific transactions or plans, please contact one of the members of Baker McKenzie’s International Trade Practice Group.

https://www.bakermckenzie.com/en/insight/publications/2017/08/us-imposes-economic

Legislation intepreted in every day speak.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 03:24 PM

Yea, that explains why they tried their first coup attemp in 1998. They saw the future and decided to act before anyone knew what was happening. You people just cannot admit you are wrong.
Only a true prophet could have foreseen that a communist might give Russia or China a military base in their country.:sarcasm:

And Angela didn't say oil never had anything to do with US policy towards Venezuela, she said there is a better explanation for why they are doing this now.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 03:44 PM

Peace Piper and Che are openly socialists. This is what we get for trying to partner with the left. We deserve this.
^^^THIS^^^

They aren't the only ones who are supporting Maduro or at least being soft on him.

The libertarian movement never should have let the leftarians or the anti-war left in, they stab us in the back on all the most important issues and drive away the conservatives who are our true allies, conservatives may need to be educated on some issues but they already agree with us on the most important issues and they are rational enough to learn.

If you dare to disagree with the leftists they accuse you of being in favor of things like interventionism and claim that you are the one who is impure even as they defend and promote cardinal sins like communism or promote the suicide of liberty through things like open borders (with the welfare state still intact even) and free trade with communist countries (with the regulatory state still intact).

Most of the anarchists are leftists who do the same things and then they also try to tell everyone to not vote and let the left run the country unopposed.

If liberty dies in America it will be because the liberty movement shook hands with the devil.(leftists)
If it survives it will be because we break with the left and successfully court conservatives who are our true allies.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 03:49 PM

I think the difference between US and China/Russia is that one wants to take it by force and the other one wants to make a deal. I am sure a libertarian of your type can understand the diff between the 2 methods.
We should stay out but they did take it by force, Chavez attempted a coup before he took power and socialism IS using force to take wealth from people.

Peace Piper

01-28-2019, 06:13 PM

^^^THIS^^^

The libertarian movement never should have let the leftarians or the anti-war left in, they stab us in the back on all the most important issues and drive away the conservatives who are our true allies, conservatives may need to be educated on some issues but they already agree with us on the most important issues and they are rational enough to learn.

If liberty dies in America it will be because the liberty movement shook hands with the devil.(leftists)
If it survives it will be because we break with the left and successfully court conservatives who are our true allies.

Such utter garbage is expected from the likes of you.

Ron Paul built something that could have made a difference.

Ron was a statesman that tried to find common ground *(Until 2011 or 2012 that is)

You and your fellow dividers are the enemy of what Ron worked for.

You are the opposite of Ron Paul. And You and the other scummy little insignificant infiltrators have stabbed yourselves in the back, look at what has happened to "the movement" as you call it, since the likes of you have infested it. It has all but disappeared, despite your constant posting of drivel. In fact, the more drivel you post, the fewer members.

You and your fellow traitors have almost destroyed what is left of Ron's great accomplishment.

And some of us will never ever forget it.

Ender

01-28-2019, 06:18 PM

Such utter garbage is expected from the likes of you.

Ron Paul built something that could have made a difference.

Ron was a statesman that tried to find common ground *(Until 2011 or 2012 that is)

You and your fellow dividers are the enemy of what Ron worked for.

You are the opposite of Ron Paul. And You and the other scummy little insignificant infiltrators have stabbed yourselves in the back, look at what has happened to "the movement" as you call it, since the likes of you have infested it. It has all but disappeared, despite your constant posting of drivel. In fact, the more drivel you post, the fewer members.

You and your fellow traitors have almost destroyed what is left of Ron's great accomplishment.

And some of us will never ever forget it.

AMEN.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 06:20 PM

AZJoe

01-28-2019, 08:23 PM

I am shocked...shocked I tell you...to see the liberals supporting Maduro.

I am shocked...shocked I tell you..to see angelatc joining Pelosi, Bill Maher, the democratic leadership, neocons, Elliot Abrams, Bolton, Pompeo, deep state, Russia-gaters, supporting the Venezuelan regime change operation.

AZJoe

01-28-2019, 08:24 PM

No they didn't The Us sanctions were against certain officials in Venezuela, not the government itself. They were put in place to keep the socialists from looting the public coffers and moving the assets to the evil empire they hate so much, which is us, naturally

There is angleatc making up bs out the air again. Ought to go get a job working for CNN. The sanctions are not only against individuals but against the country. Washington leveled sanctions against the entire oil industry of Venezuela. Washington had its vassal UK steal $1.2 billion of gold belonging to Venezuela still refusing to return it. Washington had $2.5 billion Venezuelan assets seized by banks. The Washington cut off all Venezuelan access to dollar trade by forbiddinf all banks worldwide from dealing with either the Venezuelan government or its oil or natural gas company, or else face the wrath of Washington. It is an economic blockade against Venezuela.

Turkey and Venezuela had to ink a refinishing deal this year that provided for payment in gold as a way to circumvent Washington’s froze Venezuela out of the international dollar trade. (this gold for services - circumventing the dollar - is likely one of the huge factors in Washington’s current regime change operation. The other factors are the recent selling oil for other than dollars, Russia investment in oil technology and gold mining, Chinese investment, ).

But hey, why let actual facts get in the way of a good neocon regime change operation supported by another mainstream media smear campaign

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:28 PM

You leftists destroyed the movement as you always destroy everything you touch, you are in the midst of trying to stamp out the embers that remain right now.

Obama killed the movement. Look up all the heated anti-war posts PP made here during that era. I'll wait....

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:29 PM

There is angleatc making up bs out the air again.

I FUCKING LINKED TO THE PAGES . I COPIED THE GODDAMMED NAMES DIRECTLY FROM THE SANCTIONS .

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 08:34 PM

I am shocked...shocked I tell you..to see angelatc joining Pelosi, Bill Maher, the democratic leadership, neocons, Elliot Abrams, Bolton, Pompeo, deep state, Russia-gaters, supporting the Venezuelan regime change operation.
Please post an example of her supporting US intervention.

AZJoe

01-28-2019, 08:35 PM

this latest regime change campaign and propaganda campaign against Maduro has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with elections or with any socialist policies by the Venezuelan government. Washington could care less. This is the same Washington and deep state that routinely sabotages elections around the globe. Routinely manipulates and interferes with foreign elections every single year. this is the same deep state and old stream media apparatus that tried to sabotage the US presidential election outcome.

This is the same Washington that openly embraces totalitarian dictatorships like the Saudi Wahhabist dictatorship, or the Sha of Iran;s military dictatorship, Musharraf's military dictatorship, Pinochet, Mubarak, Somoza, Suharta, Batista, and on and on with dozens of other dictators.

Washington hates democracy when it doesn't get to control the outcome. Washington loves dictatorships.

This regime change is about control.
It is about Venezuela inking a oil refining for gold exchange with Turkey.
It is about selling oil for Yuan and Euros and gold and dropping the dollar.
It is about inking a oil development deal with Russia.
It is about inking a gold mining deal with Russia.
It is about Venezuela taking presidency of OPEC and calling for oil sales in other than dollars.

These are the things that have the neocons and deep state in hysterics for another regime change operation.

Just a reminder-
1. In October Venezuela ended the use of dollar for international transactions, in favor of the Euro and Yuan (https://venezuelanalysis.com/audio/14106).
2. This month Venezuela signs deal to move its oil refining operations to Turkey, using gold trade to bypass Washington's sanctions.
3. Last Month Venezuela, with the world's largest known oil reserves, signs a deal with Russia to beef up its oil production.
4. This month Venezuela assumed the presidency of OPEC and began a push for oil sales in non-dollar currencies (https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/14213).
5. This month Venezuela gave the go ahead for Russian gold mining inside Venezuela.
*** Now all of a sudden frantic and desperate Washington announces it has appointed a new President to rule over Venezuela. COINCIDENCE?

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:37 PM

You leftists destroyed the movement as you always destroy everything you touch, you are in the midst of trying to stamp out the embers that remain right now.

He posts a propaganda piece that is literally a product of the failing socialist government owned TV station, and the angrily accuses you of posting garbage when you call him our for it.

Classic.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 08:38 PM

He posts a propaganda piece that is literally a product of the failing socialist government owned TV station, and the angrily accuses you of posting garbage when you call him our for it.

Classic.
The leftist cries out in pain as he hits you.

Ender

01-28-2019, 08:38 PM

I $#@!ING LINKED TO THE PAGES . I COPIED THE GODDAMMED NAMES DIRECTLY FROM THE SANCTIONS .

How much of this do you not understand?

The sanctions are not only against individuals but against the country. Washington leveled sanctions against the entire oil industry of Venezuela. Washington had its vassal UK steal $1.2 billion of gold belonging to Venezuela still refusing to return it. Washington had $2.5 billion Venezuelan assets seized by banks. The Washington cut off all Venezuelan access to dollar trade by forbidding all banks worldwide from dealing with either the Venezuelan government or its oil or natural gas company, or else face the wrath of Washington. It is an economic blockade against Venezuela.

This is against the whole frickin' country.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:39 PM

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 08:39 PM

Ender

01-28-2019, 08:40 PM

US intervention IS bad.

How does that mean that Maduro is good and has done nothing wrong?

That is NOT OUR BUSINESS.

AZJoe

01-28-2019, 08:42 PM

I $#@!ING LINKED TO THE PAGES . I COPIED THE GODDAMMED NAMES DIRECTLY FROM THE SANCTIONS .

No they didn't The Us sanctions were against certain officials in Venezuela, not the government itself. They were put in place to keep the socialists from looting the public coffers and moving the assets to the evil empire they hate so much, which is us, naturally

Then angelatc you ought to know Washington did level against the "G*DDAMMED"government and its banks and its oil industry. My gosh, its bad enough angelatc just flat out spouts bs about no sanctions against the government, but then doubling down on the fake bs is worse than CNN.

specsaregood

01-28-2019, 08:42 PM

I love how when dipsticks argue back and forth over who is responsible for people leaving the site or the bowel movement.

AZJoe

01-28-2019, 08:43 PM

US intervention IS bad.

How does that mean that Maduro is good and has done nothing wrong?

So if Maduro is a bad leader than it OK for Washington to appoint a new one? Enough with this idiocy SS.

specsaregood

01-28-2019, 08:44 PM

Then angelatc you ought to know Washington did level against the "G*DDAMMED"government and its banks and its oil industry. My gosh, its bad enough angelatc just flat out spouts bs about no sanctions against the government, but then doubling down on the fake bs is worse than CNN.

You should be able to cite it from actual govt sources then, as she did. TIA

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:44 PM

The leftist cries out in pain as he hits you.

I am freaking floored at the love for Maduro the clowns here have. Things are falling apart because he's a socialist dictator who ran out of money despite having the largest oil reserves in the world. His people are starving, he's rewriting the nations constitution, dismantling his own government, stealing pension cash, doing just about every evil thing a dictator can do, and people are mad because ....

he's on the way out?

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 08:51 PM

That is NOT OUR BUSINESS.
We shouldn't intervene but we can certainly comment and cheer from the sidelines.

Or are you going to take the same approach to Israel and forbid all criticism of the current regime?(or even try to portray it as good as some here are doing with Maduro?)

angelatc

01-28-2019, 08:51 PM

US intervention IS bad.

How does that mean that Maduro is good and has done nothing wrong?

They'll have a total meltdown if Trump sends today's version of Friedman down to meet with the new President after the dust settles, I can only assume. Me, I'm looking forward to selling them a few helicopters.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 08:52 PM

I am freaking floored at the love for Maduro the clowns here have. Things are falling apart because he's a socialist dictator who ran out of money despite having the largest oil reserves in the world. His people are starving, he's rewriting the nations constitution, dismantling his own government, stealing pension cash, doing just about every evil thing a dictator can do, and people are mad because ....

he's on the way out?
Hate America 1st, there has never been and never will be anyone worse than America.
Anyone who opposes America is a saint and anyone who has anything to do with America is a devil.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 08:56 PM

They'll have a total meltdown if Trump sends today's version of Friedman down to meet with the new President after the dust settles, I can only assume. Me, I'm looking forward to selling them a few helicopters.

https://pics.me.me/he-fuel-pays-for-itself-th-of-marxists-thrown-out-16186461.png

AZJoe

01-28-2019, 09:05 PM

You should be able to cite it from actual govt sources then, as she did. TIA

angelatc cited nothing for the claim that were were no sanctions against the government of Venezuela.

As for the actual sanctions here for starters - Executive Order 13835 -

"Prohibiting Certain Additional Transactions With Respect toVenezuela ... hereby order as follows:Section 1. (a) All transactions related to, provision of financing for, andother dealings in the following by a United States person or within theUnited States are prohibited:(i) the purchase of any debt owed to the Government of Venezuela, includingaccounts receivable;(ii) any debt owed to the Government of Venezuela that is pledged ascollateral after the effective date of this order, including accounts receivable;and(iii) the sale, transfer, assignment, or pledging as collateral by the Governmentof Venezuela of any equity interest in any entity in which theGovernment of Venezuela has a 50 percent or greater ownership interest. ...

Or Executive Order 13808 -

"Imposing Additional Sanctions With Respect to the Situationin Venezuela ... hereby order as follows:Section 1. (a) All transactions related to, provision of financing for, andother dealings in the following by a United States person or within theUnited States are prohibited:(i) new debt with a maturity of greater than 90 days of Petroleos deVenezuela, S.A. (PdVSA);(ii) new debt with a maturity of greater than 30 days, or new equity,of the Government of Venezuela, other than debt of PdVSA covered bysubsection (a)(i) of this section;(iii) bonds issued by the Government of Venezuela prior to the effectivedate of this order; or(iv) dividend payments or other distributions of profits to the Governmentof Venezuela from any entity owned or controlled, directly or indirectly,by the Government of Venezuela.(b) The purchase, directly or indirectly, by a United States person orwithin the United States, of securities from the Government of Venezuela,other than securities qualifying as new debt with a maturity of less thanor equal to 90 or 30 days as covered by subsections (a)(i) or (a)(ii) ofthis section, respectively, is prohibited...."

Or Executive Order 13827 -

"Taking Additional Steps to Address the Situation in Venezuela... herebyorder as follows:Section 1. (a) All transactions related to, provision of financing for, andother dealings in, by a United States person or within the United States,any digital currency, digital coin, or digital token, that was issued by,for, or on behalf of the Government of Venezuela on or after January 9,2018, are prohibited as of the effective date of this order.(b) The prohibitions in subsection (a) of this section apply except tothe extent provided by statutes, or in regulations, orders, directives, orlicenses that may be issued pursuant to this order, and notwithstandingany contract entered ..."

Or Executive Order 13850 (https://www.federalregister.gov/executive-order/13850) …
… hereby order as follows:
Section 1. (a) All property and interests in property that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of any United States person of the following persons are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in: any person determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State:
(i) to operate in the gold sector of the Venezuelan economy or in any other sector of the Venezuelan economy as may be determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State;
(ii) to be responsible for or complicit in, or to have directly or indirectly engaged in, any transaction or series of transactions involving deceptive practices or corruption and the Government of Venezuela or projects or programs administered by the Government of Venezuela, or to be an immediate adult family member of such a person;
(iii) to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, or technological support for, or goods or services to or in support of, any activity or transaction described in subsection (a)(ii) of this section, or any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order; or
(iv) to be owned or controlled by, or to have acted or purported to act for or on behalf of, directly or indirectly, any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order.
(b) The prohibitions in subsection (a) of this section apply except to the extent provided by statutes, or in regulations, orders, directives, or licenses that may be issued pursuant to this order, and notwithstanding any contract entered into or any license or permit granted prior to the date of this order. …
Sec. 4. The prohibitions in section 1 of this order include:
(a) the making of any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or services by, to, or for the benefit of any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order; and
(b) the receipt of any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or services from any such person.
Sec. 5. (a) Any transaction that evades or avoids, has the purpose of evading or avoiding, causes a violation of, or attempts to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited.
(b) Any conspiracy formed to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited.
Sec. 6. For the purposes of this order: …
(d) the term “Government of Venezuela” means the Government of Venezuela, any political subdivision, agency, or instrumentality thereof, including the Central Bank of Venezuela, and any person owned or controlled by, or acting for or on behalf of, the Government of Venezuela.
Sec. 8. The Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State, is hereby authorized to take such actions, including promulgating rules and regulations, and to employ all powers granted to the President by IEEPA as may be necessary to implement this order. The Secretary of the Treasury may, consistent with applicable law, redelegate any of these functions …
Sec. 9. The Secretary of State is hereby authorized to take such actions, including the promulgation of rules and regulations, and to employ all powers granted … to carry out section 2 of this order and the relevant provisions of section 5 …

angelatc

01-28-2019, 09:28 PM

angelatc cited nothing for the claim that were were no sanctions against the government of Venezuela.

As for the actual sanctions here for starters - Executive Oder 13835 -

"Prohibiting Certain Additional Transactions With Respect toVenezuela ... hereby order as follows:Section 1. (a) All transactions related to, provision of financing for, andother dealings in the following by a United States person or within theUnited States are prohibited:(i) the purchase of any debt owed to the Government of Venezuela, including accounts receivable;(ii) any debt owed to the Government of Venezuela that is pledged as collateral after the effective date of this order, including accounts receivable;and(iii) the sale, transfer, assignment, or pledging as collateral by the Governmentof Venezuela of any equity interest in any entity in which theGovernment of Venezuela has a 50 percent or greater ownership interest. ...

Or Executive Order 13808 -

"Imposing Additional Sanctions With Respect to the Situationin Venezuela ... hereby order as follows:Section 1. (a) All transactions related to, provision of financing for, andother dealings in the following by a United States person or within theUnited States are prohibited:(i) new debt with a maturity of greater than 90 days of Petroleos deVenezuela, S.A. (PdVSA);(ii) new debt with a maturity of greater than 30 days, or new equity,of the Government of Venezuela, other than debt of PdVSA covered bysubsection (a)(i) of this section;(iii) bonds issued by the Government of Venezuela prior to the effectivedate of this order; or(iv) dividend payments or other distributions of profits to the Governmentof Venezuela from any entity owned or controlled, directly or indirectly,by the Government of Venezuela.(b) The purchase, directly or indirectly, by a United States person orwithin the United States, of securities from the Government of Venezuela,other than securities qualifying as new debt with a maturity of less thanor equal to 90 or 30 days as covered by subsections (a)(i) or (a)(ii) ofthis section, respectively, is prohibited...."

Or Executive Order 13827 -

"Taking Additional Steps to Address the Situation in Venezuela... herebyorder as follows:Section 1. (a) All transactions related to, provision of financing for, andother dealings in, by a United States person or within the United States,any digital currency, digital coin, or digital token, that was issued by,for, or on behalf of the Government of Venezuela on or after January 9,2018, are prohibited as of the effective date of this order.(b) The prohibitions in subsection (a) of this section apply except tothe extent provided by statutes, or in regulations, orders, directives, orlicenses that may be issued pursuant to this order, and notwithstandingany contract entered ..."

Or Executive Order 13850 (https://www.federalregister.gov/executive-order/13850) …
… hereby order as follows:
Section 1. (a) All property and interests in property that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of any United States person of the following persons are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in: any person determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State:
(i) to operate in the gold sector of the Venezuelan economy or in any other sector of the Venezuelan economy as may be determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State;
(ii) to be responsible for or complicit in, or to have directly or indirectly engaged in, any transaction or series of transactions involving deceptive practices or corruption and the Government of Venezuela or projects or programs administered by the Government of Venezuela, or to be an immediate adult family member of such a person;
(iii) to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, or technological support for, or goods or services to or in support of, any activity or transaction described in subsection (a)(ii) of this section, or any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order; or
(iv) to be owned or controlled by, or to have acted or purported to act for or on behalf of, directly or indirectly, any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order.
(b) The prohibitions in subsection (a) of this section apply except to the extent provided by statutes, or in regulations, orders, directives, or licenses that may be issued pursuant to this order, and notwithstanding any contract entered into or any license or permit granted prior to the date of this order. …
Sec. 4. The prohibitions in section 1 of this order include:
(a) the making of any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or services by, to, or for the benefit of any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order; and
(b) the receipt of any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or services from any such person.
Sec. 5. (a) Any transaction that evades or avoids, has the purpose of evading or avoiding, causes a violation of, or attempts to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited.
(b) Any conspiracy formed to violate any of the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited.
Sec. 6. For the purposes of this order: …
(d) the term “Government of Venezuela” means the Government of Venezuela, any political subdivision, agency, or instrumentality thereof, including the Central Bank of Venezuela, and any person owned or controlled by, or acting for or on behalf of, the Government of Venezuela.
Sec. 8. The Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State, is hereby authorized to take such actions, including promulgating rules and regulations, and to employ all powers granted to the President by IEEPA as may be necessary to implement this order. The Secretary of the Treasury may, consistent with applicable law, redelegate any of these functions …
Sec. 9. The Secretary of State is hereby authorized to take such actions, including the promulgation of rules and regulations, and to employ all powers granted … to carry out section 2 of this order and the relevant provisions of section 5 …

Oh, looks like I maybe I was wrong. (TBH I I thought I remember that Trump had changed a while ago that but couldn't see them on the list so I thought I must have hallucinated. )

But even with all the sanctions, we are / were still buying 41% of their oil. Some new sanction was just announced tonight, and I'm not up to speed on it.

r3volution 3.0

01-28-2019, 09:45 PM

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 09:53 PM

angelatc

01-28-2019, 09:55 PM

I haven't been following the thread, so forgive me my ignorance, but why oh why would any sane person care what the Venezuelan people think.

It's the Venezuelan people who've elected and reelected psychotic communists.

Not so much in the past 2 years. The election was recognized as a sham across the globe with the exception of the communist countries that are propping him up. He decided to rewrite the constitution and remove the power of the elected legislative body rather than face losing another election. That's where this new guy's claim to the presidency comes from. Their constitution indicates that the leader of that body is the acting president in certain circumstances, and the opposition claims this is one of those circumstances.

Truth be told, I want socialism to fail and I want capitalism to rush in.

r3volution 3.0

01-28-2019, 10:01 PM

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:10 PM

FFS. His (Chavez) party was literally named the United Socialist Party Of Venezuela.

Just because socialism is in the title doesn't mean the govt controlled the economy. The Nazis had socialism in their name but it was responsible for privatizing a lot of German industries. Someone like you would be flabbagasted on how a party with socialist in its name would privatize anything.

Look at the economic stats not the name, names don't always tell you the full story. Venezuelan economy is more than 66% in private hands that to me doesn't indicate that it is a socialist run country.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:16 PM

I am going to make cookies. In my first batch, I'm using chocolate chips. In my second batch, I'm using little balls of dog $#@!. In the third batch, I'm using 50% chocolate chips and 50% dog $#@!.

Just having a little dog $#@! in my cookies doesn't mean they're not utter garbage, then.

I love your analogy, now can you tell me of a cookie baked anywhere in the world without a bit of the dog poop in it? Like I have always told you, every economy in the world is a mixed economy between socialism and capitalism. This is and has always been the case.

My dad worked in Saudi Arabia growing up and you would not imagine the kinda of wealth that exists in a socialist country. The king paid students to go to school and after school, they were given interest free loans to buy a house and he paid no income taxes. Also, they had free health care for every citizen. Natural resources can finance the hell out of alot of socialism.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 10:17 PM

Just because socialism is in the title doesn't mean the govt controlled the economy. The Nazis had socialism in their name but it was responsible for privatizing a lot of German industries. Someone like you would be flabbagasted on how a party with socialist in its name would privatize anything.

Look at the economic stats not the name, names don't always tell you the full story. Venezuelan economy is more than 66% in private hands that to me doesn't indicate that it is a socialist run country.
The NAZIs nationalized a lot of industries.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:20 PM

YES THEY WERE! Just because you don't want to admit it doesn't make it false.

FFS - you've seen this list before. Here is the list of sanctions (https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/venezuela/). Up until the past few months They are against specific members of the Venezuelan government. Their names are literally spelled out in the sanctions.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm583:

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/09/286190.htm

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm495

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0389

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0318

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0247

The list goes on. Every single sanction is against a corrupt socialist government official who is looting the coffers and attempting to off-shore assets in the USA.

EVERY SINGLE SANCTION IS AGAINST A CORRUPT SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL WHO IS LOOTING THE COFFERS AND ATTEMPTING TO OFF-SHORE ASSETS IN THE USA

I think we have all seen AZjoe's post. Just refer to it for any further questions. Thanks AZJoe, your contributions to this site in defense of liberty is invaluable.

angelatc

01-28-2019, 10:28 PM

If that were so, you'd give "the Venezuelan people" no time at all.

...and, despite what you say, they did in fact vote for this; and they will again in the next election.

Maybe you ought to ponder that.

We don't know how they would have voted in the last election. The economic demographics of the protests are changing. The wealthy have been protesting (and leaving) for years now. But lately even the slum dwellers are complaining that they're tired of searching through the garbage for food.

Chile worked out ok. I want Venezuela to be a capitalist country as well.

AZJoe

01-28-2019, 10:35 PM

Not so much in the past 2 years. The election was recognized as a sham across the globe with the exception of the communist countries that are propping him up. He decided to rewrite the constitution and remove the power of the elected legislative body rather than face losing another election. That's where this new guy's claim to the presidency comes from. Their constitution indicates that the leader of that body is the acting president in certain circumstances, and the opposition claims this is one of those circumstances.

Truth be told, I want socialism to fail and I want capitalism to rush in.

Only the empire and its vassals are calling it a sham. Interestingly the empire waited a full eight months before it hysterical election. Only this month Prence made the call to Guiado to announce himself as unelected President. Why the long delay? Why now? Well what recently happened happened in Venezuela these past two months that might explain the trigger of such a reckless, hysterical move by the empire -

1. In October Venezuela ended the use of dollar for international transactions, in favor of the Euro and Yuan (https://venezuelanalysis.com/audio/14106).
2. This month Venezuela signs deal to move its oil refining operations to Turkey, using gold trade to bypass Washington's sanctions.
3. Last Month Venezuela, with the world's largest known oil reserves, signs a deal with Russia to beef up its oil production.
4. This month Venezuela assumed the presidency of OPEC and began a push for oil sales in non-dollar currencies (https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/14213).
5. This month Venezuela gave the go ahead for Russian gold mining inside Venezuela.
*** Now all of a sudden frantic and desperate Washington announces it has appointed a new President to rule over Venezuela. COINCIDENCE?

As to the early election in May 2018 - it was the opposition that called for the early election.

It was held prior to January 2019 as required by the Constitution.
Yes some opposition elements decided nto to participate, but hat is there choice. Voting is not mandatory in Venezuela.
Sixteen , 16, political parties did participate in the election.
Maduro not only won, but won by a wide margin - 67%.
The election was observed by 14 electoral commissions from eight countries; two technical electoral missions; 18 journalist representatives from around the world; and a representative form the European Parliament
The election system is automated, audited before, during, and after the elections. The system uses fingerprint verification to avoid double votings and guarantees the principle of “one voter, one vote”.
Eighteen audits were conducted on the automated system. The representatives of opposition candidate Henri Falcón participated in all 18 audits and signed confirming conformity with the voting system.
The audits are public and broadcast live by the National Election Council’s TV channel. Once the audits are done, the system locks, and the only way of accessing it again is by introducing simultaneously the passwords that each political organisation has.
Not a single candidate, let alone an opposition candidate that participated in the electoral process contested the results.
Despite the US mainstream media propaganda campaign, no proof of any fraud has been presented. No evidence of any fraud has been presented.

The US mainstream media and deep state that pulled a Russiagate on Trump to try to delegitimize the US election, is now doing the exact same thing to Venezuela. They are a pulling a false campaign "Russiagate" on Maduro. Wash, rinse repeat. Shout the lie loudly enough and repeate it over and over, and no evidence is required.

Why do people keep getting duped over and over and over again byt he lying media- deep state partnership, even when they know better? Its because they willfully choose to be duped. they know the media has an agenda. They know it lies and has been caught in lies over and over and over. they know it dutifully always toes the deep state lines. Nevertheless they choose to willfully be duped by the media again and again. They wish the lis to be true they just just believe them without evidence, without skepticism. Choose not to be a media NPC zombie. Even when you wish what they say to be true, question it. Demand evidence. Be skeptical. Look for the motives.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:35 PM

His remarks are in italics, mine are not.

Like I said before, there wasn't a coup in 1998. There was an election.

So you agree with the Venezuelan twitter person that it is more a military defensive move than an attempt to steal the nations vast mineral resources right? cos you said the miliatry angle made more sense that the stealing of resources.

So my question is this, why did the US start attempting to remove him in 2002 for something that just started happening a few years ago? Btw, any opponent of Washington who hasn't started deepening their military alliance with Russia and China is a fool. You are just opening yourself and your country to end up like Gaddafi and Libya. It is Washington's action over the decades that has caused Venezuela to shack up with Russia and China, not the other way around.

r3volution 3.0

01-28-2019, 10:36 PM

We don't know how they would have voted in the last election. The economic demographics of the protests are changing. The wealthy have been protesting (and leaving) for years now. But lately even the slum dwellers are complaining that they're tired of searching through the garbage for food.

But who will be blamed?

The "rich" (bourgeoisie, kulaks, counter-revoltionaries).

Chile worked out ok. I want Venezuela to be a capitalist country as well.

Chile had Pinochet, who saved the country, lining up Lenin-types against a wall and shooting them.

juleswin

01-28-2019, 10:55 PM

The NAZIs nationalized a lot of industries.

A lot of industries like?

What we know

Against the mainstream: Nazi privatization in 1930s Germany

II. Selling public ownership.
In an article published in the Der Deutsche Volkswirt in February 1934, Heinz Marschner proposed “The reprivatization of urban transportation, which after the period of inflation came under public control, especially in the hands of local governments.” (Marschner 1934, p. 587, author’s translation). This proposal was related to the Nazi government’s support for returning the ownership of urban transportation back to the private sector. Several months later, in an article discussing banking policy in Germany, Hans Baumgarten (1934, p. 1645) analyzed the conditions required for the reprivatization in the German banking sector. Discussion of privatization was increasingly common soon after the Nazi government took office early in 1933, and privatizations soon followed.

Railways:
In the 1930s The Deutsche Reichsbahn (German Railways) was the largest single public enterprise in the world (Macmahon and Dittmar 1939, p.484), bringing together most of the railways services operating within Germany. The German Budget for fiscal year 1934/35, the last one published (Pollock, 1938, p. 121), established that Railway preference shares4 worth Reichsmark (Rm.) 224 million were to be sold.

Steel and mining:
In 1932, the German government bought more than 120 million marks of shares in Gelsenkirchen Bergbau (Gelsenkirchen Mining Company), the strongest firm inside the Vereinigte Stahlwerke A.G. (United Steelworks).6 At that time, the United Steel Trust was the second largest joint-stock company in Germany (the largest was Farben Industrie A.G.). The state took over the shares at 364 percent of their market value (Wengenroth, 2000, p. 115). A range of reasons has been given for the nationalization: a) to have effective control over the United Steel Trust (The Economist, July 8, 1933, 117 (4689), p. 73), b) to socialize costs derived from the effects of the Great Depression (Neumann, 1944, p. 297): and c) to prevent foreign capital taking over the firm (Wengenroth, 2000, p. 115). Soon after the Nazi party came to power, United Steel was reorganized so that the
government majority stake of 52 per cent was converted into a stake of less than 25 per cent, no longer sufficient in German law to give the government any privileges in company control.7 Fritz Thyssen, who held the leading position in the Trust, had been one of only two big industrialists to give support to the Nazi Party before it won political dominance (Barkai, 1990, p. 10). In 1936, the Government sold its block of shares, amounting to about Rm. 100 million, to the United Steel Association.8 The company Vereinigte Oberschlesische Hüttenwerke AG had control of all metal production in the Upper Silesian coal and steel industry. The Seehandlung (Prussian state bank) owned 45 per cent of this firm. The remaining shares were owned by Castellengo-Abwehr, one of the major Upper Silesian coal mines. Castellengo’s capital was owned by Ballestrem. In mid 1937, the state’s Rm. 6.75 million of shares were sold to Castellengo

http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf

And on and on on how the Nazis privatized their banking, ship building, local public utilitizes, transport, social service sectors. The question for you people is this, how can a party with Socialism in its name be caught selling off govt owned property? You people are suffering from socialism derangement syndrome

Can someone please send this paper to Tom Woods cos I am going to throw up next time I listen to him talk about how socialist the Nazi govt was. This wouldn't be such a problem if he did not throw his support for a candidate more socialistic than Hitler himself. If you don't know what I am talking about, Tom Woods(yes, the bald and stocky one) supported Donald Trump in the last election.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 11:05 PM

Only the empire and its vassals are calling it a sham. Interestingly the empire waited a full eight months before it hysterical election. Only this month Prence made the call to Guiado to announce himself as unelected President. Why the long delay? Why now? Well what recently happened happened in Venezuela these past two months that might explain the trigger of such a reckless, hysterical move by the empire -

1. In October Venezuela ended the use of dollar for international transactions, in favor of the Euro and Yuan (https://venezuelanalysis.com/audio/14106).
2. This month Venezuela signs deal to move its oil refining operations to Turkey, using gold trade to bypass Washington's sanctions.
3. Last Month Venezuela, with the world's largest known oil reserves, signs a deal with Russia to beef up its oil production.
4. This month Venezuela assumed the presidency of OPEC and began a push for oil sales in non-dollar currencies (https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/14213).
5. This month Venezuela gave the go ahead for Russian gold mining inside Venezuela.
*** Now all of a sudden frantic and desperate Washington announces it has appointed a new President to rule over Venezuela. COINCIDENCE?

As to the early election in May 2018 - it was the opposition that called for the early election.

It was held prior to January 2019 as required by the Constitution.
Yes some opposition elements decided nto to participate, but hat is there choice. Voting is not mandatory in Venezuela.
Sixteen , 16, political parties did participate in the election.
Maduro not only won, but won by a wide margin - 67%.
The election was observed by 14 electoral commissions from eight countries; two technical electoral missions; 18 journalist representatives from around the world; and a representative form the European Parliament
The election system is automated, audited before, during, and after the elections. The system uses fingerprint verification to avoid double votings and guarantees the principle of “one voter, one vote”.
Eighteen audits were conducted on the automated system. The representatives of opposition candidate Henri Falcón participated in all 18 audits and signed confirming conformity with the voting system.
The audits are public and broadcast live by the National Election Council’s TV channel. Once the audits are done, the system locks, and the only way of accessing it again is by introducing simultaneously the passwords that each political organisation has.
Not a single candidate, let alone an opposition candidate that participated in the electoral process contested the results.
Despite the US mainstream media propaganda campaign, no proof of any fraud has been presented. No evidence of any fraud has been presented.

The US mainstream media and deep state that pulled a Russiagate on Trump to try to delegitimize the US election, is now doing the exact same thing to Venezuela. They are a pulling a false campaign "Russiagate" on Maduro. Wash, rinse repeat. Shout the lie loudly enough and repeate it over and over, and no evidence is required.

Why do people keep getting duped over and over and over again byt he lying media- deep state partnership, even when they know better? Its because they willfully choose to be duped. they know the media has an agenda. They know it lies and has been caught in lies over and over and over. they know it dutifully always toes the deep state lines. Nevertheless they choose to willfully be duped by the media again and again. They wish the lis to be true they just just believe them without evidence, without skepticism. Choose not to be a media NPC zombie. Even when you wish what they say to be true, question it. Demand evidence. Be skeptical. Look for the motives.
IT WAS NOT THE OPPOSITION THAT CALLED FOR EARLY ELECTIONS
THE OPPOSITION BOYCOTTED THE ELECTIONS BECAUSE OF HOW THEY WERE BEING HANDLED
THERE ARE MANY COMMUNIST COUNTRIES AND COMMUNIST SYMPATHIZING COUNTRIES THAT ALWAYS BACK UP COMMUNIST REGIEMS
VOTING MACHINES CAN ALWAYS BE HACKED
LOTS OF PEOPLE INCLUDING CANDIDATES DISPUTED THE RESULTS
CHAVEZ AND MADURO HAVE BEEN RIGGING ELECTIONS FOR YEARS
MADURO LOST THE LAST LEGISLATIVE ELECTION SO HE CREATED A NEW LEGISLATURE AND RIGGED THE VOT TO ELECT ITS MEMBERS, THEN THAT RUBBER STAMP LEGISLATURE VIOLATED THE CONTITUTION TO CALL AN EARLY ELECTION THAT WAS THEN RIGGED
WHY WOULD PEOPLE WHO ELECTED THE OPPOSITION TO THE OLD LEGISLATURE ELECT LOYALISTS TO THE NEW LEGISLATURE AND REELECT MADURO?

The electoral conduct has been described as being fraudulent,[108] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:6-108) with the call for an election by the pro-government Constituent National Assembly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Constituent_National_Assembly) being declared unconstitutional in the first place, especially when the body moved the election date ahead from December to April.[109] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:7-109) The National Electoral Council (CNE) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electoral_Council_(Venezuela)), which is charged with overseeing elections in Venezuela, is also controlled by Maduro sympathizers.[109] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:7-109) The Bolivarian government has also been accused of excluding opposition candidates, handpicking candidates, voter intimidation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_intimidation), vote buying (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_buying), and offering food to those who vote for President Maduro.[108] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:6-108)[109] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:7-109) No recognized electoral observers were said to be present for the elections.[109] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:7-109)
National Electoral Council biasThe Venezuelan Electoral Observatory noted that the call for elections was disrespecting the tradition of organizing them in December, while nothing in the Venezuelan constitution prevents elections from being called early,[110] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-110) with exceptions in the year 2000 during the re-legitimization of all public powers by the approval of a new constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_general_election,_2000); in October 2012 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election,_2012) for the illness of Hugo Chávez (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez), and in April 2013 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election,_2013) for being an election due to the death of the president, maintaining that "the decision announced again showed the political bias of the electoral referee, since it included elements that made it difficult to have an election under equal conditions"[111] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:023-111) and that the CNE" struck a blow to democratic plurality" by preventing opposition parties from participating in the presidential election.[112] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:02-112) It also stated that since 2016 the electoral justice system administered in the country was "not impartial", citing the cases of the indigenous deputies of the Amazonas state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazonas_(Venezuelan_state)) who were dismissed from their positions for alleged irregularities in their election, which after two years have not been proven, while the fraud allegations made by the candidate to the governorship of Bolívar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bol%C3%ADvar_(state)), Andrés Velásquez (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Vel%C3%A1squez) in October 2017 had yet not been investigated.[111] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:023-111)
Announcement of electionThe 1999 Venezuelan constitution establishes that the Electoral Branch, conformed by the National Electoral Council and its subordinate organisms, is responsible for "the organization, administration, direction and surveillance of all the acts related to the election of positions of representation of the branches of government, as well as referendums". Despite this, the Constituent Assembly issued a decree in January 2018 ordering the CNE to organize the presidential elections to be held in April.[37] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:22-37) The Venezuelan Electoral Observatory claimed that "the decision announced by the CNE evidences once more the political bias of the electoral arbitrator" and warned that 74 days are insufficient to guarantee the equality and transparency of the elections.[112] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:02-112)

The Observatory pointed out that phases of the process such as the selection of new board members, the choosing of subordinate electoral organisms in public raffles, the deployment of extraordinary journeys of inscription,[clarification needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)] the update of the Electoral Registry in a broad span that allows the incorporation of the largest amount of Venezuelans, the maintenance of the voting machines, the appropriate implementation of technical audits that guarantee the proper functioning of the automated voting system, and the organization of quality international missions would all be affected due to the lack of time.[112] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:02-112)
The Electoral Citizen Network described as "irregular" the order of the Constituent Assembly to summon presidential elections before 30 April 2018, claiming that it is a violation of the constitution and civil rights.[113] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-113) Like the 2017 municipal elections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_municipal_elections,_2017), the announcement was made less than six months in advance, the time necessary to facilitate the lapses established in the normal electoral process. Súmate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BAmate) and Voto Joven (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Voto_Joven&action=edit&redlink=1) [es (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voto_Joven)] indicated that this would shorten the terms of the Electoral Registry, generating a "hasty and little transparent process". The Electoral Citizen Network demanded the Electoral Branch the performance of special operatives for the inscription and update of voters in Venezuela and abroad.[114] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-114)[115] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-auto-115)
Ramón Guillermo Aveledo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Guillermo_Aveledo), former executive secretary of the Democratic Unity Roundtable, compared the elections to the 1957 referendum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_referendum,_1957) of dictator Marcos Pérez Jiménez (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcos_P%C3%A9rez_Jim%C3%A9nez), noting that Article 82 and the Organic Law for the Public Municipal Branch specifies the prohibition that the elections for municipal positions are carried out along with the national elections, and that the mandate of the National Assembly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Assembly_(Venezuela)) ends in 2021, meaning that shortening its period, something he claims is not provided in the constitution or the Venezuelan electoral laws, is "dissolving it", which would be considered "a coup d'état (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat)" against the Legislative Branch.[116] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-116)
Electoral scheduleTwo weeks after the Constituent Assembly ordered the elections and following the failure of the dialogue between the Bolivarian government and the opposition in the Dominican Republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Republic), the CNE fixed 22 April 2018 as the day of the elections in a press conference, also announcing 15 audits and giving some dates, but without formally disclosing the electoral schedule. After changing the date of the elections to 20 May 2018 on 1 March, the CNE took 13 days to disclose the schedule. The Venezuelan Electoral Observatory and the Global Observatory of Communication and Democracy declared that the CNE has reduced the terms in each of the phases of the electoral schedule for the presidential elections since 2013, and in comparison to the 2006 and 2012 schedules with the 2018 one, the spans of the phases went from having up to three months to only two or three days in fundamental aspects, according to the last announcement of the elections. Both the time allotted for applications toward the Electoral Registry and the electoral campaigns were significantly reduced. To determine the electoral districts, the CNE must comply with the population estimates provided by the state-run National Institute of Statistics of Venezuela (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_Institute_of_Statistics_o f_Venezuela&action=edit&redlink=1) [es (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instituto_Nacional_de_Estad%C3%ADstica_de_Venezuel a)], which in turn requires the approval of the National Assembly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Assembly_(Venezuela)) first. This step was omitted and the CNE published the districts for the legislative councils at its own discretion, without disclosing its process and without answering any complaints.[37] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:22-37)
On 26 March, the Peace and Justice Center (CEPAZ) denounced how the CNE changed the schedule of the 20 May elections "clandestinely and surreptitiously", what it constituted as "a new irregularity that prevents the adequate information about the electoral offers from being guaranteed and facilitated to the voters", referring to the modification made for the ballot choices by the political parties, electoral groups, indigenous organizations, initiatives carried out on 24 March and for the regional candidates, they were scheduled for 26 March in the 23 regional offices of the CNE. According to the Electoral Branch schedule published on 13 March, the choice on ballot for national organizations would be carried out on 21 March and in the case of the regional ones on 22 March, but each one was postponed between three and four days, prompting CEPAZ to warn that due to the "opaque and quiet modification of the electoral schedule", five days were removed from the production and distribution process of the invalid electoral ballots, "further diminishing the possibility of having voters informed".[117] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-117)
The Venezuelan Electoral Observatory stressed in its report about the elections that the process for nominating presidential candidates was only allowed for only three days in 2018, from 26 to 28 February, while the modification and substitution of nominations, "the CNE enabled 118 days on 2012 and only 2 March in 2018 for this occasion". The Observatory also stressed that although the terms were changed to add the legislative councils, this did not mean a further extension of the days because "16 activities were compressed to be carried out in only 17 days, a schedule in which no task lasted more than eight days". The electoral schedule did not include national observers nor international accompaniment, which the CNE accepted until 2015. After the signature of the Agreement of Electoral Guarantees on 1 March by the political parties Great Patriotic Pole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Patriotic_Pole), Movimiento al Socialismo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_(Venezuela)), Avanzada Progresista (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avanzada_Progresista), and COPEI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COPEI), the United Nations was requested to head an electoral mission, but the organization refused to accept the offer, even after receiving a formal invitation and accepting visits from principal candidates or their representatives.[37] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:22-37)
Electoral RegistryThe Venezuelan Electoral Registry determines the number of people that will vote and in it the voters that must comply with mandatory electoral service in electoral boards are chosen, as well as the regional, municipal and parochial boards for the elections.[37] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:22-37) While in the 2012 presidential elections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election,_2012) the CNE took two months to carry out the data update, migration and inscription of new voters in the Electoral Registry, in the 2018 elections the voters only had ten days between 10 and 20 February according to the both the first 22 April and the definitive 20 May electoral schedules, both inside and outside the country, and the audits to the data were shortened from months to a few days.[118] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:12-118) The Electoral Registry has not been audited since 2005, with no independent observation for over a decade by the date of the election.[109] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:7-109)
In 2012 more than 1,300 updates of the Electoral Registry points were deployed on a national scale, but in 2018 less than half were opened, 531. The Global Observatory of Communication and Democracy estimated in the report The Citizen Observation of the Electoral Registry 2017 that at least 1,769,035 young voters were not inscribed in the Electoral Registry by December 2017. For the Venezuelan Electoral Observatory, the "CNE has done little to encourage the inscription of these new voters in the registry with institutional campaigns, breaking the current electoral law that which obligates it to deploy inscription and update centers in 'sectors of difficult access and/or of highest population concentration' in all the national territory and in any moment of the year" according to Article 33 of the Organic Law of Electoral Processes (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organic_Law_of_Electoral_Processes&action=edit&redlink=1) [es (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_Org%C3%A1nica_de_Procesos_Electorales)], and that "what is needed for the citizen to exercise their right to vote is not being done".[118] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:12-118)
On 15 February, President Maduro, without being an electoral authority, announced the extension for five days for the inscription in the electoral registry abroad and informed the opening of the Venezuelan consulate in Miami so that Venezuelans living in the city could make changes and participate. The second opening of the registry happened with the elections date change to 20 May and it was opened from 2 to 10 March. In theory, the registry allowed to update information or inscribe new voters for 24 days abroad the country and 19 in Venezuela, but electoral experts denounced obstacles for the inscription of Venezuelans abroad, because besides being insufficient it led to other obstacles that did not allow for more assistance to embassies or consultares. The electoral registry abroad only increased by 7,028 voters, which does not represent even the 0.5% of the Venezuelans estimated abroad. Nationally by 910,272 new voters were registered, adding to the 20,759,809 existing voters. Voto Joven complained because the consultes did not work on holidays, only worked on office hours without enough time or information, as well as the requirement to ask for a permanent visa to those who live in the countries where the opening was formalized, even though to vote only a laminated identity card is needed.[37] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:22-37)
The Observatory also denounced that "The ER of Venezuelans abroad has been in a sort of illegal suspension since 2012, a measure violatory of the current electoral law" and that according to the last report of the CNE on 30 April 2017, the Venezuelans with the right to vote abroad are only 101,595 voters, "a number much lower than the migrants with the right to vote" in comparison to the estimates of between 2 and 4 million Venezuelans living abroad. Even though to vote only a laminated identity card is needed, active passports, original birth certificates, visas, residence letters, and other administrative requirements not covered by law were requested by consulates and embassies, preventing their participation in the elections.[118] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:12-118)
Agreement of Electoral Guarantees
The signing of the Agreement of Electoral Guarantees by three of the original five presidential candidates – Maduro, Falcón, and Bertucci – was presented by the candidates as an extension of the electoral norms. The agreement included, among other aspects, the move to eliminate pro-government "red points" controlled by chavistas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavismo) – which after the agreement had to be moved farther away from voting centers – the call for international observers and the return to voting center locations changed during the Constituent Assembly elections and the 2017 regional elections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_regional_elections,_2017). The agreement has been questioned and rejected by the NGOs Voto Joven, CEPAZ, and the Global Observatory of Communication and Democracy. On 27 March, the CEPAZ director Beatriz Borges declared that "the Agreement of Electoral Guarantees is a scam for the citizen since it covers initiatives that were already established in the Law and that the CNE has not met".
Despite that the presidential candidates Henri Falcón, Javier Bertucci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Bertucci), and Luis Alejandro Ratti denounced the violation of guarantees provided in the agreement, on 2 May the president of the CNE, Tibisay Lucena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibisay_Lucena), contradicted the complaints and assured that the Agreement of Electoral Guarantees was "fulfilled in its entirety".[119] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-119)
CampaigningThe presidential and legislative councils campaign started on 22 April and ended on 17 May at midnight, according to the schedule approved by the CNE. However, candidates postulated for the presidency or the reelection carried out activities with the electorate and exposed proposals that will be executed in case of being elected, violating Article 75 of the Organic Law of Electoral Processes (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organic_Law_of_Electoral_Processes&action=edit&redlink=1) [es (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_Org%C3%A1nica_de_Procesos_Electorales)].[83] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:022-83) Francisco Castro, national coordinator of Súmate, pointed out that the CNE provided only 26 days for the national campaigning, explaining that the term "does not allow candidates to have enough time to promote their ideas and call for participation, so they are forced to anticipate their campaign. By tradition, the process lasts more than 60 days", noting that the CNE began the process only 80 days prior to the election of more than 500 positions, reducing the time of the activities. Equally, he indicated that the CNE does not regulate pre-campaign activities and stated that as long as there is not an explicit call to vote, then the candidate cannot be sanctioned. Castro explained that the pattern carried out since the government of Hugo Chávez (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez) is repeated in which electoral campaigns are used to inaugurate works and make promises. He continued by stating that the practice should be prevented, that "an official, such as the president, uses the communication platform to take advantage of the other candidates", saying that during the elections there were several candidates who used propaganda on television, but that the CNE does not limit the number of minutes, the content or the number of times that it is transmitted daily.[83] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:022-83)
Ignacio Ávalos, director of the Venezuelan Electoral Observatory, and political scientist Luis Salamanca agreed that until now, an electoral environment or government project does not exist, but rather "a struggle to achieve power", stressing that electoral competition was suppressed and that an electoral campaign was designed for the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Socialist_Party_of_Venezuela)'s own convenience. Salamanca asserted that "Maduro distributes benefits to obtain votes and Falcón offers benefits in the future in exchange for votes. Neither has enough weight to mobilize the country electorally".[83] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:022-83)

Vote buying

Reports of vote buying (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_buying) were also prevalent during the presidential campaigning. Venezuelans suffering from hunger were pressured to vote for Maduro, with the government bribing potential supporters with food.[121] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:15-121) Maduro promised rewards for citizens who scanned their Carnet de la Patria at the voting booth, which would allow the government to monitor the political party of their citizens and whether or not they had voted. These prizes were reportedly never delivered.[120] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-reuters_zte-120)

In a visit to Delta Amacuro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Amacuro), president and reelection candidate Nicolás Maduro gave away eight motor boats, nine ambulances, and reopened the "Antonio Díaz" Tucupita Airport, among other announcements, violating Article 223 of the Organic Law of Electoral Processes which forbids the use of state resources during election campaigns, as well as one of the prerogatives in the Agreement of Electoral Guarantees signed by the presidential candidates to the CNE.[123] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-123)[124] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-124)[125] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-125) On 8 May Maduro again violated the electoral law during an electoral act in the Amazonas state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazonas_(Venezuelan_state)) by promising to give fuel to the entity in exchange for votes.[126] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:5-126)[127] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-127)[128] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-128)[129] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-129)
Campaign closureThe Tal Cual (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tal_Cual) newspaper published an article describing Maduro's final campaign rally on 17 May as "the greatest demonstration of corruption", criticizing the "shameless" use of state resources, including the use of ministerial staff and publishing audio which revealed that promotion of the final rally was created using the payroll of government offices. Tal Cual also published the PSUV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Socialist_Party_of_Venezuela)'s operative plan of the rally, which did not include tasks directed towards PSUV party members but instead assigns responsibilities to the state ministries and other public institutions, including the mobilization of people. The operative plan details that the state-run oil company PDVSA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDVSA) installed the main stage, generators, the backing, and the sound systems, that the Defense Ministry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Defense_(Venezuela)) was in charge of the fireworks detonations, that the Ministry for Mining Development was responsible for decoration and that other institutions were responsible for the installation of portable bathrooms, visual displays, barriers, awnings, and refreshments. In page six of the PSUV plan it is also written that the people that surrounded the stage from which Maduro was speaking were militias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolivarian_Militia_of_Venezuela) dressed as civilians.[130] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:72-130)[131] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:8-131)

ResultsBy the time polls were to officially close at 6:00pm VST (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela_time), it was reported by a CNE source that voter turnout was only 32.3%,[132] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-132) the lowest turnout in Venezuela's modern democratic history since the 1958 coup d'état (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:9-4) CNE data would later show that turnout was 46.1%, a record low.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:10-18)
Both Falcón and Bertucci rejected the results, stating that there were too many irregularities.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:10-18) As the results were read by the CNE, many Venezuelans throughout Caracas began a cacerolazo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacerolazo) protest against Maduro, with some beginning to barricade streets.[133] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-133)

DomesticThe Democratic Unity Roundtable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Unity_Roundtable) (MUD) opposition coalition confirmed on 21 February 2018 that it would not participate in the elections since they "do not comply with democratic conditions or guarantees".[142] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-142) Henri Falcon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Falc%C3%B3n), former Lara State Governor and opposition presidential candidate, lambasted the Democratic Unity Roundtable for their boycott of the elections and stated: "You will disappear as politicians and as parties for not understanding the dynamics of a country that demands solutions and not conflict", and also stated, "four parties (those participating in the elections) believe in national unity".[143] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-143)
Movimiento Estudiantil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movimiento_Estudiantil_(Venezuela)) rejected the elections, saying they were called "outside of the lapses established by our Carta Magna" and stated that it they were "requested by an unconstitutional, incompetent body erected on the blood of hundreds of Venezuelans", considering that the elections are not designed for the Venezuelan public, but were created to "perpetuate the hell and the misery lived today". The movement stated that it would not participate in the process and demanded political leaders not to endorse the process.[144] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-144)[145] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-145)
The NGO Foro Penal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foro_Penal) decided not to endorse the announcement of the presidential elections based on the fact that the Constituent Assembly does not have constitutional faculties to summon an election because it is only empowered to draft a new constitution, assuring that it would be seizing functions from other political bodies when calling for elections and that the announcement is violating the right of Venezuelans to choose in valid and fair conditions attached to the constitution.[146] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-146) Both the Episcopal Conference of Venezuela (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Conference_of_Venezuela) and the Venezuelan Federation of Chambers of Commerce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_Federation_of_Chambers_of_Commerce) (Fedecámaras) rejected and asked to postpone the elections in statements published on the week of the elections.[147] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-147)[148] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-148) The head of the Caracas-based Global Observatory of Communication and Democracy Griselda Colina and former Director of the Carter Center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Center)'s Americas Program Dr Jennifer McCoy concluded that Maduro's victory could not be considered democratic due to a wide range of failings in prevailing electoral conditions.[149] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-149)

InternationalSupranational bodiesUnited Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_the_United_Nations_High_Commissioner_for _Human_Rights) Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeid_Ra%27ad_al-Hussein) noted that his office had concerns that reports of extrajudicial killings cast doubts on fairness, stating "this context does not in any way fulfill minimal conditions for free and credible elections".[39] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-REUTunMAR-39) On 23 March 2018 a United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) official informed that the organization would not offer electoral assistance in the elections, without explaining the motives. Spokesperson Farhan Haq stated that a letter was sent to Venezuelan authorities regarding the request of electoral experts, but did not explain the content.[151] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-151)

Prior to the elections, the Lima Group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_Group), with its participating nations of Argentina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina), Brazil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil), Canada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada), Chile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile), Colombia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia), Costa Rica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica), Guatemala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala), Guyana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana), Honduras (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduras), Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico), Panama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama), Paraguay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguay), Peru (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peru), and Saint Lucia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lucia), stated that they would not recognize the results of the presidential elections due to the perceived lack of transparency.[152] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-LGcondemn1-152) With the support of the Lima Group, the Peruvian foreign minister Cayetana Aljovín (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cayetana_Aljov%C3%ADn&action=edit&redlink=1) [es (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayetana_Aljov%C3%ADn)] informed that the presence of President Maduro in the 8th Summit of the Americas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_Summit_of_the_Americas) "would not be welcome in said encounter", quoting the 2001 Quebec Declaration, which states that "the rupture of democracy constitutes an insuperable obstacle for the participation of a State in the Summit of the Americas".[153] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-teleSUR4-153) After the vote, Canada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) joined the group in condemning the election as fraudulent.[154] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-154)
On 23 February 2018, at a special session supported by its Secretary General (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_General_of_the_Organization_of_American_ States) Luis Almagro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Almagro), the Permanent Council of the Organization of American States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_American_States) (OAS) adopted a resolution that asks the Venezuelan government to reconsider the announcement of the presidential elections and to present a new electoral schedule to make possible the performance of elections with all the guarantees needed. The 19 countries that supported the resolution were Argentina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina), Bahamas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahamas), Barbados (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbados), Brazil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil), Canada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada), Chile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile), Colombia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia), Costa Rica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica), Guatemala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala), Guyana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana), Honduras (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduras), Jamaica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica), Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico), Panama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama), Paraguay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguay), Peru (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peru), Saint Lucia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lucia), the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States), and Uruguay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay).[155] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-155)[156] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-156) Following a meeting held on 10 May, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-American_Commission_on_Human_Rights) published a document stating that the process did not meet international standards, that the CNE electoral body was biased and that the "hurried announcement ... has seriously affected the warranty of the universal vote for the new voters and Venezuelans abroad", concluding that the election would not meet "the minimal conditions needed for the realization of free, fair and reliable elections in Venezuela".[157] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-157)[158] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-158)[159] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-159)
On 8 February, the European Parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament), with 480 votes in favor, 51 against, and 70 abstentions, adopted a resolution demanding sanctions against President Nicolás Maduro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicol%C3%A1s_Maduro), Vice President Tareck el Aissami (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tareck_el_Aissami), and other officials, considering them "responsible for the aggravation of the crisis.[160] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-160)[161] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-teleSUR23-161) The European Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union), through the European Parliament, also ruled that it would not recognize the 20 May elections and called the electoral process "fraudulent".[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:11-12) On 3 May 2018, the European Parliament again called for the immediate suspension of the 20 May election until "free and fair elections were held on a schedule agreed upon with the participation of all relevant actors and political parties".[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:13-13)
GovernmentsThe governments of Argentina,[162] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-LPargentina-162) Canada,[163] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-163) Chile,[164] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-164) Colombia,[152] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-LGcondemn1-152) Costa Rica,[165] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-165) France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France),[166] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:18-166) Jamaica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica),[167] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:1-167) Panama,[168] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-168) Paraguay,[169] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-169) Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain),[170] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-170) the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)[161] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-teleSUR23-161) and Uruguay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay)[171] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-171) directly criticized the electoral process in various ways, condemning the disqualification and imprisonment of MUD individuals, the lack of advanced notice for the election date and the bias of electoral bodies, describing such actions by the Venezuelan government antidemocratic.[172] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-172)[173] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-Herald-173) Remaining member governments representing countries from the Lima Group, including Brazil, Guatemala, Guyana, Honduras, Mexico, Peru, and Saint Lucia, denounced the elections in a joint statement through declarations made by the organization.[152] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-LGcondemn1-152)
Meanwhile, the governments of Antigua and Barbuda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigua_and_Barbuda),[174] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-caribbeannewsservice.com-174) Bolivia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia),[175] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-175) Cuba,[176] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-mh-176)[177] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-177) Nicaragua (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua),[178] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:4-178) North Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea)[179] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:17-179) and Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia)[180] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-:3-180)[181] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-181) reacted to the call for elections positively, showing support for the process and demanded that there be no intervention.

More at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 11:15 PM

A lot of industries like?

What we know

http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf

And on and on on how the Nazis privatized their banking, ship building, local public utilitizes, transport, social service sectors. The question for you people is this, how can a party with Socialism in its name be caught selling off govt owned property? You people are suffering from socialism derangement syndrome

Can someone please send this paper to Tom Woods cos I am going to throw up next time I listen to him talk about how socialist the Nazi govt was. This wouldn't be such a problem if he did not throw his support for a candidate more socialistic than Hitler himself. If you don't know what I am talking about, Tom Woods(yes, the bald and stocky one) supported Donald Trump in the last election.
The NAZIs were trying to create a compromise to gain the "advantages" of both communism and capitalism but they were absolutely socialists.

They Nationalized some industries and entwined the "private" companies with the government in industries they didn't nationalize.

https://pics.me.me/weary-marskist-who-says-eethat-wasnt-real-communism-will-be-13149842.png

juleswin

01-28-2019, 11:15 PM

But who will be blamed?

The "rich" (bourgeoisie, kulaks, counter-revoltionaries).

Chile had Pinochet, who saved the country, lining up Lenin-types against a wall and shooting them.

And when you cannot convince them with your word, just round em up shoot the natives up and jack their country. I have heard people tell me that the Shah was also good for Iran, it was working until the dastardly Ayotollahs messed with our plans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emi9CaAEuv0

juleswin

01-28-2019, 11:18 PM

The NAZIs were trying to create a compromise to gain the "advantages" of both communism and capitalism but they were absolutely socialists.

They Nationalized some industries and entwined the "private" companies with the government in industries they didn't nationalize.

https://pics.me.me/weary-marskist-who-says-eethat-wasnt-real-communism-will-be-13149842.png

What industry is that? give me specifics please and stop BSing me.

entwined the "private" companies with the government in industries they didn't nationalize.

Not sure if this is true in Nazi Germany but this can also be said about the US and its many industries. The banks, the oil industry, the MIC, the car companies etc etc. This doesn't mean we are a socialist country.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 11:22 PM

What industry is that? give me specifics please and stop BSing me.

Not sure if this is true in Nazi Germany but this can also be said about the US and its many industries. The banks, the oil industry, the MIC, the car companies etc etc. This doesn't mean we are a socialist country.
My purpose today is to make just two main points: (1) To show why Nazi Germany was a socialist state, not a capitalist one. And (2) to show why socialism, understood as an economic system based on government ownership of the means of production, positively requires a totalitarian dictatorship.
The identification of Nazi Germany as a socialist state was one of the many great contributions of Ludwig von Mises.
When one remembers that the word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei — in English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party — Mises's identification might not appear all that noteworthy. For what should one expect the economic system of a country ruled by a party with "socialist" in its name to be but socialism?
Nevertheless, apart from Mises and his readers, practically no one thinks of Nazi Germany as a socialist state. It is far more common to believe that it represented a form of capitalism, which is what the Communists and all other Marxists have claimed.
The basis of the claim that Nazi Germany was capitalist was the fact that most industries in Nazi Germany appeared to be left in private hands.
What Mises identified was that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and that the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners, Mises showed, was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners.
De facto government ownership of the means of production, as Mises termed it, was logically implied by such fundamental collectivist principles embraced by the Nazis as that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State.
But what specifically established de facto socialism in Nazi Germany was the introduction of price and wage controls in 1936. These were imposed in response to the inflation of the money supply carried out by the regime from the time of its coming to power in early 1933. The Nazi regime inflated the money supply as the means of financing the vast increase in government spending required by its programs of public works, subsidies, and rearmament. The price and wage controls were imposed in response to the rise in prices that began to result from the inflation.
The effect of the combination of inflation and price and wage controls is shortages, that is, a situation in which the quantities of goods people attempt to buy exceed the quantities available for sale.
Shortages, in turn, result in economic chaos. It's not only that consumers who show up in stores early in the day are in a position to buy up all the stocks of goods and leave customers who arrive later, with nothing — a situation to which governments typically respond by imposing rationing. Shortages result in chaos throughout the economic system. They introduce randomness in the distribution of supplies between geographical areas, in the allocation of a factor of production among its different products, in the allocation of labor and capital among the different branches of the economic system.
In the face of the combination of price controls and shortages, the effect of a decrease in the supply of an item is not, as it would be in a free market, to raise its price and increase its profitability, thereby operating to stop the decrease in supply, or reverse it if it has gone too far. Price control prohibits the rise in price and thus the increase in profitability. At the same time, the shortages caused by price controls prevent increases in supply from reducing price and profitability. When there is a shortage, the effect of an increase in supply is merely a reduction in the severity of the shortage. Only when the shortage is totally eliminated does an increase in supply necessitate a decrease in price and bring about a decrease in profitability.
As a result, the combination of price controls and shortages makes possible random movements of supply without any effect on price and profitability. In this situation, the production of the most trivial and unimportant goods, even pet rocks, can be expanded at the expense of the production of the most urgently needed and important goods, such as life-saving medicines, with no effect on the price or profitability of either good. Price controls would prevent the production of the medicines from becoming more profitable as their supply decreased, while a shortage even of pet rocks prevented their production from becoming less profitable as their supply increased.
As Mises showed, to cope with such unintended effects of its price controls, the government must either abolish the price controls or add further measures, namely, precisely the control over what is produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it is distributed, which I referred to earlier. The combination of price controls with this further set of controls constitutes the de facto socialization of the economic system. For it means that the government then exercises all of the substantive powers of ownership.
This was the socialism instituted by the Nazis. And Mises calls it socialism on the German or Nazi pattern, in contrast to the more obvious socialism of the Soviets, which he calls socialism on the Russian or Bolshevik pattern.
Of course, socialism does not end the chaos caused by the destruction of the price system. It perpetuates it. And if it is introduced without the prior existence of price controls, its effect is to inaugurate that very chaos. This is because socialism is not actually a positive economic system. It is merely the negation of capitalism and its price system. As such, the essential nature of socialism is one and the same as the economic chaos resulting from the destruction of the price system by price and wage controls. (I want to point out that Bolshevik-style socialism's imposition of a system of production quotas, with incentives everywhere to exceed the quotas, is a sure formula for universal shortages, just as exist under all around price and wage controls.)
At most, socialism merely changes the direction of the chaos. The government's control over production may make possible a greater production of some goods of special importance to itself, but it does so only at the expense of wreaking havoc throughout the rest of the economic system. This is because the government has no way of knowing the effects on the rest of the economic system of its securing the production of the goods to which it attaches special importance.

More at: https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian

UWDude

01-28-2019, 11:33 PM

juleswin

01-28-2019, 11:35 PM

My purpose today is to make just two main points: (1) To show why Nazi Germany was a socialist state, not a capitalist one. And (2) to show why socialism, understood as an economic system based on government ownership of the means of production, positively requires a totalitarian dictatorship.
The identification of Nazi Germany as a socialist state was one of the many great contributions of Ludwig von Mises.
When one remembers that the word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei — in English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party — Mises's identification might not appear all that noteworthy. For what should one expect the economic system of a country ruled by a party with "socialist" in its name to be but socialism?
Nevertheless, apart from Mises and his readers, practically no one thinks of Nazi Germany as a socialist state. It is far more common to believe that it represented a form of capitalism, which is what the Communists and all other Marxists have claimed.
The basis of the claim that Nazi Germany was capitalist was the fact that most industries in Nazi Germany appeared to be left in private hands.
What Mises identified was that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and that the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners, Mises showed, was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners.
De facto government ownership of the means of production, as Mises termed it, was logically implied by such fundamental collectivist principles embraced by the Nazis as that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State.

More at: https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian

So essnetially, they privatized a bunch on industries just so they can control said companies without people knowing? What would be the point of doing this? its not like they are trying to pretend that they are a bunch of capitalist.

Sorry but not buying what mises is selling. At least not this time around.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 11:46 PM

So essnetially, they privatized a bunch on industries just so they can control said companies without people knowing? What would be the point of doing this? its not like they are trying to pretend that they are a bunch of capitalist.

Sorry but not buying what mises is selling. At least not this time around.
They were attempting to create a compromise between capitalism and communism.

Go ahead and deny reality just because it is inconvenient, that is exactly what I would expect of you anyway.

Swordsmyth

01-28-2019, 11:48 PM

angelatc

01-29-2019, 03:29 AM

But who will be blamed?

The "rich" (bourgeoisie, kulaks, counter-revoltionaries).

Chile had Pinochet, who saved the country, lining up Lenin-types against a wall and shooting them.

I'm not really a violent person. As much as I'd like to say heck yeah, that would make me uncomfortable. But we all know that they won't go quietly into that good night.

UWDude

01-29-2019, 03:55 AM

I'm not really a violent person. As much as I'd like to say heck yeah, that would make me uncomfortable. But we all know that they won't go quietly into that good night.

Actually, they all did go quietly into the night. disappeared. Their mothers left wondering what happened, until it became so common that the mothers began to talk to each other, network, and then discover that their sons had been murdered by pinochet... ..for wrongthink. It is quite an interesting tale how the mothers networked, and eventually, exposed Pinochet's truly murderous ways.
Not murderous like swordsmyth uses the term to win an argument, but truly murderous.

And it is really interesting to see Swordsmyth et al call Maduro and Chavez "murderous regimes" because of... no murders..., yet praising Pinochet's infamous "helicopter rides" which were given to young men simply for refusing to change their minds about what they felt was the correct path for their country's future. The helicopter rides were not for people planning violence or any of that, it was simply for wrong think.

And really, they should not have gone quietly into the night. The elected a president. Then that was taken away from them through force of arms with the backing of a foreign nation.

Electing a socialist for a president is not justification for a coup and tyranny. It's not the end of the world. This happens time and time again, socialist elected in foreign country, US ends democracy, installs puppet. Just like the US is trying in Venezuela now by proclaiming some no-name dude as legit president.

The future of Chileans (Allende), Iranians (Mossadegh), Venezuela (Chavez), Syria (Assad) etc belong to the peoples of that country. Not you, swordsmyth, and all the others with opinions on places and times they know diddly squat about.

Champ

01-29-2019, 05:39 AM

juleswin

01-29-2019, 07:45 AM

Actually, they all did go quietly into the night. disappeared. Their mothers left wondering what happened, until it became so common that the mothers began to talk to each other, network, and then discover that their sons had been murdered by pinochet... ..for wrongthink. It is quite an interesting tale how the mothers networked, and eventually, exposed Pinochet's truly murderous ways.
Not murderous like swordsmyth uses the term to win an argument, but truly murderous.

And it is really interesting to see Swordsmyth et al call Maduro and Chavez "murderous regimes" because of... no murders..., yet praising Pinochet's infamous "helicopter rides" which were given to young men simply for refusing to change their minds about what they felt was the correct path for their country's future. The helicopter rides were not for people planning violence or any of that, it was simply for wrong think.

And really, they should not have gone quietly into the night. The elected a president. Then that was taken away from them through force of arms with the backing of a foreign nation.

Electing a socialist for a president is not justification for a coup and tyranny. It's not the end of the world. This happens time and time again, socialist elected in foreign country, US ends democracy, installs puppet. Just like the US is trying in Venezuela now by proclaiming some no-name dude as legit president.

The future of Chileans (Allende), Iranians (Mossadegh), Venezuela (Chavez), Syria (Assad) etc belong to the peoples of that country. Not you, swordsmyth, and all the others with opinions on places and times they know diddly squat about.

Couldn't agree more, except that the story goes like this, foreign country with natural resources a US/western company is exploiting elects a socialist leader, the places sanctions/embargo on the country to undermine their economy, ends democracy, installs puppet......... We have Chile, Iran, Libya, Cuba, Syria, Venezuela for examples. My question is this, if socialism was the cancer killing economic system some people think it is, then you don't have to undermine it with economic warfare. Just sit back and wait for it to collapse itself.

juleswin

01-29-2019, 07:50 AM

I'm unclear on what has happened in this thread, can someone help explain to me what is going on here?

I thought socialism was a bad thing as far as free markets and liberty go, but this thread is giving me an alternate impression. Any clarifications would be appreciated.

Also, is it okay if I have an opinion about another country, but have zero interest in intervening in said country using force?

The confusion is there because your reading comprehension is seriously lacking. Socialism is a less effective way of running an economy, that doesn't mean that the US has the right to interfere in countries trying this system.

Yes and nobody in the thread disagrees with this opinion. Non interventionism is much a libertarian position as capitalism.

AZJoe

01-29-2019, 10:07 AM

Swordsmyth copy paste from the US propaganda post at Wikipedia]
More at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election

A blind mass copy paste of an entire wall of Washington social media propaganda post at U.S. based wikipedia, which itself does nto even sa what SS proffers it for.

Ever wonder people get duped by U.S. media and deep state propaganda lies over and over and over again. Folks that openly recognize the U.S., media agenda, and lies as post on other threads such as Covington, Russiagate, confirming the agenda and the lying. Yet turn around and willfully swallow the loads of lies on the latest mainstream media deep state mouthpieces.

Even lies about things that are readily verifiable. For instance claiming none of the opposition participated. Yet the main opposition candidate Falcon did participate. So did Bertucci. Six candidates in total and 16 political parties. The National Constituent Assembly approved the early election only after opposition sought a recall election. Even those that chose not to participate - that was their choice. Accept it.

The Wikipedia focuses on the MUD "Democratic Unity" candidate Lopez being disqualified due to the fact he is a felon serving a 14 year sentence. MUD is a coalition weighted heavily to extreme leftists - more left than Maduro - such as Red Flag, Radical Cause, Movement for Socialism, Social Democracy, Movement Towards Socialism, etc. Their opposition is that Maduro is not leftist-socialist enough. Essentially Washington is arguing that the election should have had even more leftists socialists.

Throughout all of this Washington NGO's like NED were busy stirring the pot, funding and aiding opposition groups, and directly interfering in Venezuela's elections (https://consortiumnews.com/2019/01/28/the-dirty-hand-of-the-national-endowment-for-democracy-in-venezuela/). More (https://consortiumnews.com/2019/01/28/the-dirty-hand-of-the-national-endowment-for-democracy-in-venezuela/).

Again

It was the opposition that called for the early election.
It was held prior to January 2019 as required by the Constitution.
Yes some opposition elements decided nto to participate, but hat is there choice. Voting is not mandatory in Venezuela.
Sixteen , 16, political parties did participate in the election.
Maduro not only won, but won by a wide margin - 67%.
The election was observed by 14 electoral commissions from eight countries; two technical electoral missions; 18 journalist representatives from around the world; and a representative form the European Parliament
The election system is automated, audited before, during, and after the elections. The system uses fingerprint verification to avoid double votings and guarantees the principle of “one voter, one vote”.
Eighteen audits were conducted on the automated system. The representatives of opposition candidate Henri Falcón participated in all 18 audits and signed confirming conformity with the voting system.
The audits are public and broadcast live by the National Election Council’s TV channel. Once the audits are done, the system locks, and the only way of accessing it again is by introducing simultaneously the passwords that each political organisation has.
Not a single candidate, let alone an opposition candidate that participated in the electoral process contested the results.
Despite the US mainstream media propaganda campaign, no proof of any fraud has been presented. No evidence of any fraud has been presented, just allegations and allegations, allegations and claims without evidence.

But the real issue, is regardless of what anyone thinks of the elections, it is still not Washington' or Trump's or Obama's place to be deciding Venezuela's elections ro interfering in its internal elections.

Such wall of text copy paste deserves no response really, other than a copy paste. Here is a link response in lieu of copy paste (https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-facts-about-venezuelas-may-20th-presidential-election/242622/).

angelatc

01-29-2019, 10:18 AM

Actually, they all did go quietly into the night. disappeared. Their mothers left wondering what happened, until it became so common that the mothers began to talk to each other, network, and then discover that their sons had been murdered by pinochet... ..for wrongthink. It is quite an interesting tale how the mothers networked, and eventually, exposed Pinochet's truly murderous ways.
Not murderous like swordsmyth uses the term to win an argument, but truly murderous.

When I said "they" I meant the communists. They won't ever sit back and stop coming. Death is literally the only thing that does stop them, but Pinochet was smart enough not to make them martyrs.

And it is really interesting to see Swordsmyth et al call Maduro and Chavez "murderous regimes" because of... no murders...,

Maduro's troops have indeed killed protestors.

yet praising Pinochet's infamous "helicopter rides" which were given to young men simply for refusing to change their minds about what they felt was the correct path for their country's future. The helicopter rides were not for people planning violence or any of that, it was simply for wrong think.

If they believed socialism was best for the nation, they were indeed planning violence.

And really, they should not have gone quietly into the night. The elected a president. Then that was taken away from them through force of arms with the backing of a foreign nation.

Electing a socialist for a president is not justification for a coup and tyranny. It's not the end of the world. This happens time and time again, socialist elected in foreign country, US ends democracy, installs puppet. Just like the US is trying in Venezuela now by proclaiming some no-name dude as legit president.

The future of Chileans (Allende), Iranians (Mossadegh), Venezuela (Chavez), Syria (Assad) etc belong to the peoples of that country. Not you, swordsmyth, and all the others with opinions on places and times they know diddly squat about.

Screw that. I want them all dead. I don't have the heart for war, but I'm not support their right to survive in any way shape or form.

CaptUSA

01-29-2019, 10:21 AM

Ever wonder people get duped by U.S. media and deep state propaganda lies over and over and over again. Folks that openly recognize the U.S., media agenda, and lies as post on other threads such as Covington, Russiagate, confirming the agenda and the lying. Yet turn around and willfully swallow the loads of lies on the latest mainstream media deep state mouthpieces.

Oh, but do you believe the lies coming out of the left side of the government's mouth, or the right side?? That's the important issue in SS's estimation. Without that, how would he know which government lies to believe???

angelatc

01-29-2019, 10:22 AM

A blind mass copy paste of an entire wall of Washington social media propaganda post at U.S. based wikipedia, which itself does nto even sa what SS proffers it for.

Ever wonder people get duped by U.S. media and deep state propaganda lies over and over and over again. Folks that openly recognize the U.S., media agenda, and lies as post on other threads such as Covington, Russiagate, confirming the agenda and the lying. Yet turn around and willfully swallow the loads of lies on the latest mainstream media deep state mouthpieces.

Even lies about things that are readily verifiable. For instance claiming none of the opposition participated. Yet the main opposition candidate Falcon did participate. So did Bertucci. Six candidates in total and 16 political parties. The National Constituent Assembly approved the early election only after opposition sought a recall election. Even those that chose not to participate - that was their choice. Accept it.

The Wikipedia focuses on the MUD "Democratic Unity" candidate Lopez being disqualified due to the fact he is a felon serving a 14 year sentence. MUD is a coalition weighted heavily to extreme leftists - more left than Maduro - such as Red Flag, Radical Cause, Movement for Socialism, Social Democracy, Movement Towards Socialism, etc. Their opposition is that Maduro is not leftist-socialist enough. Essentially Washington is arguing that the election should have had even more leftists socialists.

Throughout all of this Washington NGO's like NED were busy stirring the pot, funding and aiding opposition groups, and directly interfering in Venezuela's elections (https://consortiumnews.com/2019/01/28/the-dirty-hand-of-the-national-endowment-for-democracy-in-venezuela/). More (https://consortiumnews.com/2019/01/28/the-dirty-hand-of-the-national-endowment-for-democracy-in-venezuela/).

Again

It was the opposition that called for the early election.
It was held prior to January 2019 as required by the Constitution.
Yes some opposition elements decided nto to participate, but hat is there choice. Voting is not mandatory in Venezuela.
Sixteen , 16, political parties did participate in the election.
Maduro not only won, but won by a wide margin - 67%.
The election was observed by 14 electoral commissions from eight countries; two technical electoral missions; 18 journalist representatives from around the world; and a representative form the European Parliament
The election system is automated, audited before, during, and after the elections. The system uses fingerprint verification to avoid double votings and guarantees the principle of “one voter, one vote”.
Eighteen audits were conducted on the automated system. The representatives of opposition candidate Henri Falcón participated in all 18 audits and signed confirming conformity with the voting system.
The audits are public and broadcast live by the National Election Council’s TV channel. Once the audits are done, the system locks, and the only way of accessing it again is by introducing simultaneously the passwords that each political organisation has.
Not a single candidate, let alone an opposition candidate that participated in the electoral process contested the results.
Despite the US mainstream media propaganda campaign, no proof of any fraud has been presented. No evidence of any fraud has been presented, just allegations and allegations, allegations and claims without evidence.

But the real issue, is regardless of what anyone thinks of the elections, it is still not Washington' or Trump's or Obama's place to be deciding Venezuela's elections ro interfering in its internal elections.

Such wall of text copy paste by SS really deserves no response really, other than a copy paste. Here is a link response in lieu of copy paste (https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-facts-about-venezuelas-may-20th-presidential-election/242622/).

Speaking of propaganda.....those are some lively cherries you've picked there. I don't have time to go through them all one by one at the moment, but it's laughable to anybody whose read even a little bit about the development of the political and humanitarian crisis there.

Todd

01-29-2019, 10:31 AM

I love your analogy, now can you tell me of a cookie baked anywhere in the world without a bit of the dog poop in it? Like I have always told you, every economy in the world is a mixed economy between socialism and capitalism. This is and has always been the case.

My dad worked in Saudi Arabia growing up and you would not imagine the kinda of wealth that exists in a socialist country. The king paid students to go to school and after school, they were given interest free loans to buy a house and he paid no income taxes. Also, they had free health care for every citizen. Natural resources can finance the hell out of alot of socialism.

And that's the only way Socialism gets funded. Off the backs of the free market.

AZJoe

01-29-2019, 10:40 AM

Speaking of propaganda.....those are some lively cherries you've picked there. I don't have time to go through them all one by one at the moment, but it's laughable to anybody whose read even a little bit about the development of the political and humanitarian crisis there.

This is laughable - "those facts are cherry picked therefore Angela rejects those facts." This response is supposed to justify regime change, interfering foreign elections, sanctions, violation of national sovereignty, confiscating property of other nations? Give me a break.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the elections, it is still not Washington' or Trump's or Obama's place to be deciding Venezuela's elections ro interfering in its internal politics. It does not justify regime change, stealing property, devastating sanctions, interfering in foreign elections, NGOs like USAID and NED manipulation of other nations internal election and politics, destruction of national sovereignty, etc.

Yes socialism is bad. I'd like to see Macron go and half the heads of Europe, but it is not our place to use force to do so there or Venezuela or anywhere. The proper way to fight Socialism is via free market. Unfortunately Washington, the lover of dictators, is anti-free market and thus resorts to simple minded brute force. Its about as anti-free market a response as one can get.

The response to socialism is free market. Washington's proper response would be to implement free market - open trade and let it flow. Let's actually try some free market here in the U.S. - cut government, cut taxes, cut foreign interventionist spending boondoggles, cut sanctions, cut regulation a, cut licensing, eliminate the deficit, stop the boondoggles, open trade, get out of the way. That is the proper response to socialism elsewhere.

Origanalist

01-29-2019, 10:45 AM

Cap

01-29-2019, 11:27 AM

Wait a minute, have you flipped again? Is Trump the savior or not?The lad is a a riddle,wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

ETA: Or he's simply a troll.

Origanalist

01-29-2019, 11:35 AM

The lad is a a riddle,wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

I was just getting used to the trash can man persona.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA25LcbWbHc&feature=youtu.be

angelatc

01-29-2019, 11:55 AM

The NAZIs nationalized a lot of industries.

Reading up on Venezuela....almost all of the "private" corporations in the country are owned by government officials or their kin. There are no bidding processes for government contracts.

angelatc

01-29-2019, 11:57 AM

This is laughable - "those facts are cherry picked therefore Angela rejects those facts." .

No I have some work to do. I'll come back later and add nuances and corrections.

angelatc

01-29-2019, 12:06 PM

I love your analogy, now can you tell me of a cookie baked anywhere in the world without a bit of the dog poop in it? Like I have always told you, every economy in the world is a mixed economy between socialism and capitalism. This is and has always been the case.

My dad worked in Saudi Arabia growing up and you would not imagine the kinda of wealth that exists in a socialist country. The king paid students to go to school and after school, they were given interest free loans to buy a house and he paid no income taxes. Also, they had free health care for every citizen. Natural resources can finance the hell out of alot of socialism.

Don't have to imagine it. I turned down a chance to live there because why the fuck would I want to, but husband contracts there on a semi-regular basis.

A tiny country of borderline retarded people too lazy to work. They literally import slave labor.

Why the fuck is this trolling allowed here?

.

Krugminator2

01-29-2019, 12:13 PM

Electing a socialist for a president is not justification for a coup and tyranny. It's not the end of the world.

The future of Chileans (Allende),

Actually electing a Marxist is cause for a coup.

Allende took thousands of farms and businesses. Real wages dropped 80% under his reign. I am for executing anyone who enacts those policies and anyone who foments opposition. It wasn't wrong think. It was wrong doing and trying to perpetuate wrong doing. It is easy to sit back and criticize in hindsight.

Pinochet fighting back Marxists is an equivalent to if the Jews fought back against the Nazis. Nobody would have criticized that- in hindsight. Pinochet did what was necessary to win and keep his country from becoming a Soviet satellite state. Killing only 3000 Commies in a civil war and voluntarily giving up power in an election makes Pinochet one of the least evil dictators in history.

BTW, it worked. Chile is the freest and wealthiest country in South America now.

Krugminator2

01-29-2019, 12:22 PM

The praising of Pinochet.

The first 9/11, where a military leader did not like the results of an election, so with the help of the CIA and the Chicago school, simply bombed the Chilean white house with fighter jets, and then claimed Allende committed suicide, and then disappeared thousands of young socialists and communists. Only when the mothers found out it happened to their sons, did they start to realize the massive terror Pinochet brought to Chile.

Never forget, 9-11-1973.

The punishment for commies should be death in a war. You can be a communist in a free society. You cannot be a communist and work in a government enacting communist policies. If given the choice between Pinochet and government confiscating the means of production, I am for a Pinochet killing as many people as it takes to win.

It is always bizarre this fixation from the left on Pinochet. He killed .01% of the people killed by Communist regimes almost all during a war and laid the foundation prosperity and elections.

Here is from FA Hayek.

More recently I have not been able to find a single person even in much maligned Chile who did not agree that personal freedom was much greater under Pinochet (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet) than it had been under Allende (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende)

I have seen in some South American countries the most extraordinary progress. … In that much condemned country, Chile, the restoration of only economic freedom and not political freedom has led to an economic recovery that is absolutely fantastic. … You can have economic freedom without political freedom, but you cannot have political freedom without economic freedom.

I visited Chile some time ago and I found that the country is being governed by members of Friedman (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman)'s seminar! ... The economic system is working marvelously and the recovery is extraordinary. I did not see the system of political control in enough detail to have a serious opinion about it, but I can say that the economy is much freer in comparison to what it had been for a very long time. I also think that the way in which Chile is covered by the international press is scandalous.

I cannot help but protest in the strongest possible terms against the cartoon on page 3 of your publication of the 30th of December equating the present governments of Poland and Chile. It can only be explained by complete ignorance of the facts or by the systematically promoted socialist calumnies of the present situation in Chile, which I had not expected the F.A.Z. to fall for. I believe that all the participants in the Mont Pelerin Society conference held a few weeks ago in Chile would agree with me that you owe the Chilean government a humble apology for such twisting of the facts. Any Pole lucky enough to escape to Chile could consider himself fortunate.

juleswin

01-29-2019, 12:35 PM

Don't have to imagine it. I turned down a chance to live there because why the $#@! would I want to, but husband contracts there on a semi-regular basis.

A tiny country of borderline retarded people too lazy to work. They literally import slave labor.

Why the $#@! is this trolling allowed here?

.

Population of Saudi Arabia is 32 million and the population of Venezuela is 31 million. If socialism can work in a population of borderline retarded, religious fanatic people, why cant it work in Venezuela?

Import slave labour? I can assure you that there are millions of people beating down their doors to come and partake in that slave labour. My dad made way more money working for that socialist hell hole of a country than he would have made working in the capitalist US of A. How is that even possible?

Someone can't win an argument so she resorts to calling me a troll. Your refusal to accept the reality that socialism is not always destined to fail when its not interfered with makes you look bad. So go ahead and call me a communist and a troll cos that's all you have left in your arsenal.

juleswin

01-29-2019, 12:38 PM

And that's the only way Socialism gets funded. Off the backs of the free market.

Or natural resources.

CaptUSA

01-29-2019, 01:19 PM

Or natural resources.Nope.

You need the market to utilize those resources. Wealth is created through trade. Through the free market. You could be sitting on top of a mountain of gold, but it won't do you any good until you exchange it for something else of value. You can have a government mete the resources out to people, but there will be no wealth without a free market. They will all be equally poor, with a pocket full of gold that no one wants.

RonZeplin

01-29-2019, 01:29 PM

https://youtu.be/WTE0SQA2jU8

juleswin

01-29-2019, 02:01 PM

Nope.

You need the market to utilize those resources. Wealth is created through trade. Through the free market. You could be sitting on top of a mountain of gold, but it won't do you any good until you exchange it for something else of value. You can have a government mete the resources out to people, but there will be no wealth without a free market. They will all be equally poor, with a pocket full of gold that no one wants.

Todd said that the only way socialism can be funded is off the back of the free market and I said "or with natural resources". How is this wrong? yes the govt will be participating in the free market by selling the good it mined off the land it owns but its not off the backs of the free market. This is different from taking taxes from private people's income where I would agree that it is funding off the back of the free market.

Swordsmyth

01-29-2019, 02:16 PM

Actually, they all did go quietly into the night. disappeared. Their mothers left wondering what happened, until it became so common that the mothers began to talk to each other, network, and then discover that their sons had been murdered by pinochet... ..for wrongthink. It is quite an interesting tale how the mothers networked, and eventually, exposed Pinochet's truly murderous ways.
Not murderous like swordsmyth uses the term to win an argument, but truly murderous.

And it is really interesting to see Swordsmyth et al call Maduro and Chavez "murderous regimes" because of... no murders..., yet praising Pinochet's infamous "helicopter rides" which were given to young men simply for refusing to change their minds about what they felt was the correct path for their country's future. The helicopter rides were not for people planning violence or any of that, it was simply for wrong think.

And really, they should not have gone quietly into the night. The elected a president. Then that was taken away from them through force of arms with the backing of a foreign nation.

Electing a socialist for a president is not justification for a coup and tyranny. It's not the end of the world. This happens time and time again, socialist elected in foreign country, US ends democracy, installs puppet. Just like the US is trying in Venezuela now by proclaiming some no-name dude as legit president.

The future of Chileans (Allende), Iranians (Mossadegh), Venezuela (Chavez), Syria (Assad) etc belong to the peoples of that country. Not you, swordsmyth, and all the others with opinions on places and times they know diddly squat about.
There are murders that were committed by the Chavez and Maduro Regimes, read up on the collectivos.

Communism is a conspiracy to rob, murder and enslave everyone else, it doesn't matter if 51% vote for it, the rest of the people have a right to overthrow a communist regime by force, after the regime has been overthrown the rebels can't continue to live in the same country as the communists that want to rob, murder and enslave them.
That leaves them with a limited number of options, they can banish all the communists to any other country that is stupid enough to take them, they can divide the territory and banish all of the communists to a new separate territory or they can kill the communists, if the communists resist either of the first two options then they will only have the third option.

We should stay out of Venezuela but the people of Venezuela should overthrow the communist regime whether it was democratically elected or not and then dispose of the communists in one of the three possible ways.

Anti Globalist

01-29-2019, 02:36 PM

Stay. The. Fuck. Out. Of. Venezuela.

RonZeplin

01-29-2019, 03:27 PM

Making of Juan Guaidó: How the US Regime Change Laboratory Created Venezuela’s Coup Leader

(https://grayzoneproject.com/2019/01/29/the-making-of-juan-guaido-how-the-us-regime-change-laboratory-created-venezuelas-coup-leader/)Juan Guaidó is the product of a decade-long project overseen by Washington’s elite regime change trainers. While posing as a champion of democracy, he has spent years at the forefront of a violent campaign of destabilization.

Before the fateful day of January 22, fewer than one in five (https://twitter.com/venanalysis/status/1087447663153500166) Venezuelans had heard of Juan Guaidó. Only a few months ago, the 35-year-old was an obscure character in a politically marginal far-right group closely associated with gruesome acts of street violence. Even in his own party, Guaidó had been a mid-level figure in the opposition-dominated National Assembly, which is now held under contempt according to Venezuela’s constitution.

But after a single phone call from from US Vice President Mike Pence, Guaidó proclaimed himself as president of Venezuela. Anointed as the leader of his country by Washington, a previously unknown political bottom dweller was vaulted onto the international stage as the US-selected leader of the nation with the world’s largest oil reserves.

Echoing the Washington consensus, the New York Times editorial board hailed (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/opinion/venezuela-guaido-maduro.html) Guaidó as a “credible rival” to Maduro with a “refreshing style and vision of taking the country forward.” The Bloomberg News editorial board applauded (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-25/guaido-s-bold-stroke-for-democracy-in-venezuela) him for seeking “restoration of democracy” and the Wall Street Journal declared (https://www.wsj.com/articles/revolt-in-venezuela-11548289111) him “a new democratic leader.” Meanwhile, Canada, numerous European nations, Israel, and the bloc of right-wing Latin American governments known as the Lima Group recognized Guaidó as the legitimate leader of Venezuela.

While Guaidó seemed to have materialized out of nowhere, he was, in fact, the product of more than a decade of assiduous grooming by the US government’s elite regime change factories. Alongside a cadre of right-wing student activists, Guaidó was cultivated to undermine Venezuela’s socialist-oriented government, destabilize the country, and one day seize power. Though he has been a minor figure in Venezuelan politics, he had spent years quietly demonstrated his worthiness in Washington’s halls of power.

“Juan Guaidó is a character that has been created for this circumstance,” Marco Teruggi, an Argentinian sociologist and leading chronicler of Venezuelan politics, told the Grayzone. “It’s the logic of a laboratory – Guaidó is like a mixture of several elements that create a character who, in all honesty, oscillates between laughable and worrying.”

Diego Sequera, a Venezuelan journalist and writer for the investigative outlet, Mision Verdad, agreed: “Guaidó is more popular outside Venezuela than inside, especially in the elite Ivy League and Washington circles,” Sequera remarked to the Grayzone, “He’s a known character there, is predictably right-wing, and is considered loyal to the program.”

[......]

Training from the “‘export-a-revolution’ group that sowed the seeds for a NUMBER of color revolutions”

On October 5, 2005, with Chavez’s popularity at its peak and his government planning sweeping socialist programs, five Venezuelan “student leaders” arrived (https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/venezuela-marigold-revolution) in Belgrade, Serbia to begin training for an insurrection.

The students had arrived from Venezuela courtesy of the Center for Applied Non-Violent Action and Strategies, or CANVAS. This group is funded (http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2013/01/14/breaking-desperate-for-destabilization-in-venezuela-us-funded-otpor-rears-its-ugly-head/) largely through the National Endowment for Democracy (https://grayzoneproject.com/2018/08/20/inside-americas-meddling-machine-the-us-funded-group-that-interferes-in-elections-around-the-globe/), a CIA cut-out that functions as the US government’s main arm of promoting regime change; and offshoots like the International Republican Institute and the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs. According to leaked internal emails (https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/17/1792423_information-on-canvas-.html) from Stratfor, an intelligence firm known as the “shadow CIA,” (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/12/15/stratfor-canadian-government_n_4449505.html) “[CANVAS] may have also received CIA funding and training during the 1999/2000 anti-Milosevic struggle.”

CANVAS is a spinoff of Otpor, a Serbian protest group founded by Srdja Popovic (http://www.williamengdahl.com/englishNEO1Oct2017.php) in 1998 at the University of Belgrade. Otpor, which means “resistance” in Serbian, was the student group that gained international fame – and Hollywood-level promotion (https://vimeo.com/143379353) – by mobilizing the protests that eventually toppled Slobodan Milosevic. This small cell of regime change specialists was operating according to the theories of the late Gene Sharp, the so-called “Clausewitz of non-violent struggle.” Sharp had worked with a former Defense Intelligence Agency analyst, Col. Robert Helvey (http://peacemagazine.org/archive/v24n1p12.htm), to conceive a strategic blueprint that weaponized protest as a form of hybrid warfare, aiming it at states that resisted Washington’s unipolar domination.

Otpor was supported by the National Endowment for Democracy, USAID and Sharp’s Albert Einstein Institute. Sinisa Sikman, one of Otpor’s main trainers, once said (https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/17/1792423_information-on-canvas-.html) the group even received direct CIA funding. According to a leaked email (https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/17/1713359_re-insight-venezuela-canvas-analysis-.html) from a Stratfor staffer, after running Milosevic out of power, “the kids who ran OTPOR grew up, got suits and designed CANVAS… or in other words a ;export-a-revolution’ group that sowed the seeds for a NUMBER of color revolutions. They are still hooked into U.S. funding and basically go around the world trying to topple dictators and autocratic governments (ones that U.S. does not like ;).”

Stratfor revealed that CANVAS “turned its attention to Venezuela” in 2005 after training opposition movements that led pro-NATO regime change operations across Eastern Europe.

While monitoring the CANVAS training program, Stratfor outlined its insurrectionist agenda in strikingly blunt language: “Success is by no means guaranteed, and student movements are only at the beginning of what could be a years-long effort to trigger a revolution in Venezuela, but the trainers themselves are the people who cut their teeth on the ‘Butcher of the Balkans.’ They’ve got mad skills. When you see students at five Venezuelan universities hold simultaneous demonstrations, you will know that the training is over and the real work has begun.”

Birthing the “Generation 2007” regime change cadre

[.....]

(https://grayzoneproject.com/2019/01/29/the-making-of-juan-guaido-how-the-us-regime-change-laboratory-created-venezuelas-coup-leader/)While video of the protest is not available, many Venezuelans have identified (http://www.lechuguinos.com/juan-guaido-pela-nalgas/) Guaidó as one of its key participants. While the allegation is unconfirmed, it is certainly plausible; the bare-buttocks protesters were members of the Generation 2007 inner core that Guaidó belonged to, and were clad in their trademark Resistencia! Venezuela t-shirts, as seen below:

https://i0.wp.com/grayzoneproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/GUAIDO.jpg?resize=630%2C390&ssl=1

Is this the ass that Trump wants to install in Venezuela’s seat of power?

https://grayzoneproject.com/2019/01/29/the-making-of-juan-guaido-how-the-us-regime-change-laboratory-created-venezuelas-coup-leader/ (https://grayzoneproject.com/2019/01/29/the-making-of-juan-guaido-how-the-us-regime-change-laboratory-created-venezuelas-coup-leader/)

UWDude

01-29-2019, 10:27 PM

Couldn't agree more, except that the story goes like this, foreign country with natural resources a US/western company is exploiting

That's not real capitalism, that's crony capitalism.

I mean, that's not real communism, wait, I'm confused.

Swordsmyth

01-29-2019, 10:30 PM

That's not real capitalism, that's crony capitalism.

I mean, that's not real communism, wait, I'm confused.
Let me clear it up for you:
Anything that isn't capitalism is socialism, crony capitalism is socialism for the elite.

UWDude

01-29-2019, 10:33 PM

Is this the ass that Trump wants to install in Venezuela’s seat of power?

It's not like the people of Venezuela, a large minority, don't support these guys, they do.
They can not see US influence, they see Maduro, because Maduro is charisma-less.
He is nothing like Hugo.

I wouldn't doubt for a minute, Hugo picked Maduro, because Chavez drank lots of coffee, and loved to talk, and Maduro probably understood Chavez' ramblings better than anyone.

This sin't to say Chavez' ramblings were incoherent, or that Maduro was a sycophant. Neither. Maduro could just bounce with Chavez.

But Chavez missed Maduro had no charisma, when he pointed him as successor. He liked him as an idealist, not as an organized or charismatic leader.

Aló Presidente just wasn't the same without Hugo.

RonZeplin

01-29-2019, 11:21 PM

It's not like the people of Venezuela, a large minority, don't support these guys, they do.
They can not see US influence, they see Maduro, because Maduro is charisma-less.

So if Nancy Peosi swore herself in as President, and Trudeau sent 5,000 Canadian Mounties to protect her, you'd be OK with that?

UWDude

01-30-2019, 01:17 AM

So if Nancy Peosi swore herself in as President, and Trudeau sent 5,000 Canadian Mounties to protect her, you'd be OK with that?

So if aliens landed on the moon, and started hurling space weasels at us, you'd be OK with that?

dannno

01-30-2019, 01:32 AM

Meanwhile in Venezuela..

http://i.imgur.com/uxQKb1e.jpg

"They're ticks, Bubbles, they're ticks."

Occam's Banana

01-30-2019, 01:59 AM

angelatc

01-30-2019, 10:30 AM

Population of Saudi Arabia is 32 million and the population of Venezuela is 31 million. If socialism can work in a population of borderline retarded, religious fanatic people, why cant it work in Venezuela?

I never said it worked.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 10:36 AM

So if Nancy Peosi swore herself in as President, and Trudeau sent 5,000 Canadian Mounties to protect her, you'd be OK with that?

A much better analogy would be if after the last election, Trump just declared the House of Representatives no longer was an official body. Then he assembled a bunch of his rich supporters and declared they were now the governing body.

At that point, I suspect other nations would be recognizing Pelosi as the legitimate leader. Especially if it was written in their constitution.

Because that's exactly what Maduro did. And that's exactly who Guaidó is.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 01:24 PM

oyarde

01-30-2019, 01:36 PM

I have lived in Saud . Complete and total shithole . I have not lived in North Korea but that might be the only thing worse .

juleswin

01-30-2019, 04:36 PM

I never said it worked.

Lets just put it this way, the stores over there has just as many brands of toilet paper as an grocery store in the states. The country is not failing or close to it and they have a very very generous welfare state. Whatever they are doing, it is working for them.

So go ahead and keep denying the reality that socialism can work in certain conditions.

Also, I did see your post about people trolling RPF and spreading socialism. Just so you know, I am not a troll or a socialist. I am a person who like to test my political ideas by talking it out in debates and discussions.

juleswin

01-30-2019, 04:37 PM

I have lived in Saud . Complete and total $#@!hole . I have not lived in North Korea but that might be the only thing worse .

Where in Saudi did u live?

oyarde

01-30-2019, 04:47 PM

Where in Saudi did u live?

In the desert .There is one province they say that actually gets rainfall ( Asir )but I did not get to see it . I was always north of there .

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 05:11 PM

Lets just put it this way, the stores over there has just as many brands of toilet paper as an grocery store in the states. The country is not failing or close to it and they have a very very generous welfare state. Whatever they are doing, it is working for them.

So go ahead and keep denying the reality that socialism can work in certain conditions.

Also, I did see your post about people trolling RPF and spreading socialism. Just so you know, I am not a troll or a socialist. I am a person who like to test my political ideas by talking it out in debates and discussions.
It won't last, sooner or later the oil money that buys them the "luxury" of socialism will not be enough.(sooner)
That is part of what happened to Venezuela.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 05:13 PM

angelatc

01-30-2019, 05:24 PM

Lets just put it this way, the stores over there has just as many brands of toilet paper as an grocery store in the states. .

My husband works in retail, and I can assure everyone this is not true.

No non-Saudi is allowed to own a business. Foreign nationals pay Saudis just to be listed as a partner. Saudi law dictates that every employer must have a certain percentage of Saudis employed, so businesses hire phantom Saudi workers - people who don't actually have a physical presence or any responsibility except for being paid. They literally have to import workers to get anything done. And of course the workers who are brought in can't afford the high price of living there, so they live 30-40 people to a room. None of them are eligible for any of the free stuff the Royal Family bestows upon the citizens of the Kingdom.

You can't be a Saudi. You can't apply for citizenship. You can't marry a Saudi and become a Saudi. If you marry a Saudi, your children will not be Saudi.

They have an over-inflated sense of worth. They won't do any job which they feel is beneath them, which is most jobs. They have no skills, no need to better themselves. As a society are lazy, uneducated and obese.

The Royal Family is generous, but they are destroying their society.

Much like you want to destroy ours.

juleswin

01-30-2019, 05:29 PM

It won't last, sooner or later the oil money that buys them the "luxury" of socialism will not be enough.(sooner)
That is part of what happened to Venezuela.

Some people say the US would is on the verge of collapse, their debt to gdp ratio is out of this world and their have a welfare system that about to explode. But the system we have right now is working. I bet if a powerful country put a sanction on the country that made it hard to sell their bonds, the country will collapse in less than 10 yrs.

I really can't understand why its hard for you people to admit defeat. Socialism is not an effective way to run a country but it can work given the right conditions. The way I look at it, capitalism is a reliable 2020 toyota camry, sexy, very reliable, affordable, fuel efficient etc etc and socialism is a 2000 ford taurus. If you maintain your Taurus well, it can last you a really long time.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 05:31 PM

My husband works in retail, and I can assure everyone this is not true.

No non-Saudi is allowed to own a business. Foreign nationals pay Saudis just to be listed as a partner. Saudi law dictates that every employer must have a certain percentage of Saudis employed, so businesses hire phantom Saudi workers - people who don't actually have a physical presence or any responsibility except for being paid. They literally have to import workers to get anything done. And of course the workers who are brought in can't afford the high price of living there, so they live 30-40 people to a room. None of them are eligible for any of the free stuff the Royal Family bestows upon the citizens of the Kingdom.

You can't be a Saudi. You can't apply for citizenship. You can't marry a Saudi and become a Saudi. If you marry a Saudi, your children will not be Saudi.

They have an over-inflated sense of worth. They won't do any job which they feel is beneath them, which is most jobs. They have no skills, no need to better themselves. As a society are lazy, uneducated and obese.

The Royal Family is generous, but they are destroying their society.

Much like you want to destroy ours.
When the oil money runs out it won't be pretty.

It won't be long now:

Saudi Arabia and OPEC are doomed. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?510641-Saudi-Arabia-and-OPEC-are-doomed)

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 05:35 PM

Some people say the US would is on the verge of collapse, their debt to gdp ratio is out of this world and their have a welfare system that about to explode. But the system we have right now is working. I bet if a powerful country put a sanction on the country that made it hard to sell their bonds, the country will collapse in less than 10 yrs.
First you explain that America isn't working (we all know that) and then you say it is working.:rolleyes:
As I keep telling you: Socialism makes a country weak to outside attacks that a non-socialist country would be able to shrug off, since all countries experience outside threats then that isn't what is to be blamed when they collapse.
If America was as socialist as Venezuela we would have collapsed long ago.

I really can't understand why its hard for you people to admit defeat. Socialism is not an effective way to run a country but it can work given the right conditions. The way I look at it, capitalism is a reliable 2020 toyota camry, sexy, very reliable, affordable, fuel efficient etc etc and socialism is a 2000 ford taurus. If you maintain your Taurus well, it can last you a really long time.

The "right conditions" never last and socialism destroys a country's ability to survive when they are gone.

juleswin

01-30-2019, 05:37 PM

My husband works in retail, and I can assure everyone this is not true.

No non-Saudi is allowed to own a business. Foreign nationals pay Saudis just to be listed as a partner. Saudi law dictates that every employer must have a certain percentage of Saudis employed, so businesses hire phantom Saudi workers - people who don't actually have a physical presence or any responsibility except for being paid. They literally have to import workers to get anything done. And of course the workers who are brought in can't afford the high price of living there, so they live 30-40 people to a room. None of them are eligible for any of the free stuff the Royal Family bestows upon the citizens of the Kingdom.

You can't be a Saudi. You can't apply for citizenship. You can't marry a Saudi and become a Saudi. If you marry a Saudi, your children will not be Saudi.

They have an over-inflated sense of worth. They won't do any job which they feel is beneath them, which is most jobs. They have no skills, no need to better themselves. As a society are lazy, uneducated and obese.

The Royal Family is generous, but they are destroying their society.

Much like you want to destroy ours.

I have visited Saudi Arabia 4x in my lifetime and my dad has worked there since 1989, stayed in Abha and Riyhad most of the time and I can tell you that my quote is very true for me. The stores we went to were filled to the brim with food and other household goods. Say what you want about their laws but the truth is this, Saudi Arabia's economy is doing gangbusters and it is working for their people.

It is not Venezuela where they don't even have toilet paper in the stores(we have toilet papers in Nigerian stores and our govt is 1000x more corrupt than Venezuelan govt) and the fact that it makes them lazy is besides the point.

RonZeplin

01-30-2019, 05:37 PM

Moscow Will Do "Whatever It Takes" To Defend Its Interests In Venezuela (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-30/moscow-will-do-whatever-it-takes-defend-its-interests-venezuela)

After decrying US sanctions against Venezuela's state-run oil company PDVSA as "illegal" and enforcing "unfair competition", a Kremlin spokesman has reiterated that Russia is prepared to use "all mechanisms available to us" to defend its economic interests in Venezuela - interests that are closely tied to the Maduro regime.
https://zh-prod-1cc738ca-7d3b-4a72-b792-20bd8d8fa069.storage.googleapis.com/s3fs-public/inline-images/Screen%20Shot%202019-01-30%20at%209.44.13%20AM.png

According to RT (https://www.rt.com/business/450116-russia-oil-assets-venezuela/), Russia has extended billions of dollars of loans to PDVSA, mostly via oil firm Rosneft. The company has extended $6 billion of loans which must be repaid in crude by the end of the year. Data from S&P Global Platts shows that as of November 2018, Venezuela had a $3.1 billion outstanding loan to repay to Rosneft.

Rosneft also has five joint upstream projects with PDVSA in Venezuela. Peskov said that Russia is still assessing the potential impact of the PDVSA sanctions for Moscow.
According to analysts briefed by Platts, whatever becomes of Maduro, Rosneft likely won't be cut off from Venezuelan oil because the country has abundant reserves, and oil is practically the only 'hard currency' it can access. An analyst at a Western bank estimated that Rosneft assets in Venezuela are equivalent to some $2.5 billion, plus another $2.5 billion in crude supplies owed for the loans.

[.....]

Though the Kremlin has denied the reports, rumors about the presence of 400 Kremlin affiliated mercenaries (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-28/kremlin-denies-report-400-russia-backed-mercenaries-sent-venezuela) in Venezuela make more sense given how much money is at stake.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-30/moscow-will-do-whatever-it-takes-defend-its-interests-venezuela

juleswin

01-30-2019, 05:46 PM

First you explain that America isn't working (we all know that) and then you say it is working.:rolleyes:
As I keep telling you: Socialism makes a country weak to outside attacks that a non-socialist country would be able to shrug off, since all countries experience outside threats then that isn't what is to be blamed when they collapse.
If America was as socialist as Venezuela we would have collapsed long ago.

The "right conditions" never last and socialism destroys a country's ability to survive when they are gone.

People like Peter Schiff say the US economy is on the verge of collapse even though it is working at the moment. My point is that just because it may collpase in the future doesn't mean its not working now.

Also, not all countries experience outside threats. Hong Kong for example doesn't even have an Army. Maybe its because the fact that they are protected by the US that they can live soundly in peace without having to fret about outside attacks.

Maybe they would adjust as their resources start to wind down, you don't know that. But when hostile powers as strong as the US attack then a small country like Venezuela would buckle. You also have to understand that it is not just the US attacking but the vassal South American states neighbouring it.

Zippyjuan

01-30-2019, 05:51 PM

Moscow Will Do "Whatever It Takes" To Defend Its Interests In Venezuela (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-30/moscow-will-do-whatever-it-takes-defend-its-interests-venezuela)

After decrying US sanctions against Venezuela's state-run oil company PDVSA as "illegal" and enforcing "unfair competition", a Kremlin spokesman has reiterated that Russia is prepared to use "all mechanisms available to us" to defend its economic interests in Venezuela - interests that are closely tied to the Maduro regime.

According to RT (https://www.rt.com/business/450116-russia-oil-assets-venezuela/), Russia has extended billions of dollars of loans to PDVSA, mostly via oil firm Rosneft. The company has extended $6 billion of loans which must be repaid in crude by the end of the year. Data from S&P Global Platts shows that as of November 2018, Venezuela had a $3.1 billion outstanding loan to repay to Rosneft.

Rosneft also has five joint upstream projects with PDVSA in Venezuela. Peskov said that Russia is still assessing the potential impact of the PDVSA sanctions for Moscow.
According to analysts briefed by Platts, whatever becomes of Maduro, Rosneft likely won't be cut off from Venezuelan oil because the country has abundant reserves, and oil is practically the only 'hard currency' it can access. An analyst at a Western bank estimated that Rosneft assets in Venezuela are equivalent to some $2.5 billion, plus another $2.5 billion in crude supplies owed for the loans.

[.....]

Though the Kremlin has denied the reports, rumors about the presence of 400 Kremlin affiliated mercenaries (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-28/kremlin-denies-report-400-russia-backed-mercenaries-sent-venezuela) in Venezuela make more sense given how much money is at stake.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-30/moscow-will-do-whatever-it-takes-defend-its-interests-venezuela

So basically Russia will own Venezuela's oil.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 05:54 PM

People like Peter Schiff say the US economy is on the verge of collapse even though it is working at the moment. My point is that just because it may collpase in the future doesn't mean its not working now.

Also, not all countries experience outside threats. Hong Kong for example doesn't even have an Army. Maybe its because the fact that they are protected by the US that they can live soundly in peace without having to fret about outside attacks.

Maybe they would adjust as their resources start to wind down, you don't know that. But when hostile powers as strong as the US attack then a small country like Venezuela would buckle. You also have to understand that it is not just the US attacking but the vassal South American states neighbouring it.
Why hasn't Iran collapsed? (Hint: They aren't as socialist as Venezuela)
It is the socialism that is responsible for the dramatic collapse of Venezuela

juleswin

01-30-2019, 06:03 PM

Why hasn't Iran collapsed? (Hint: They aren't as socialist as Venezuela)
It is the socialism that is responsible for the dramatic collapse of Venezuela

In Iran, the state owns and runs the oil company. If that isn't socialism, then I don't know what socialism is.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/what-privatization-irans-unique-socialist-economy/244887/

Read this article about Iran's economy and you will understand that their economy is still socialistic in nature. Mixed but have a good deal of socialism about it.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 06:07 PM

In Iran, the state owns and runs the oil company. If that isn't socialism, then I don't know what socialism is.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/what-privatization-irans-unique-socialist-economy/244887/

Read this article about Iran's economy and you will understand that their economy is still socialistic in nature. Mixed but have a good deal of socialism about it.
I didn't say they were not socialist, I said they weren't as socialist as Venezuela.
More socialism=More weakness

RonZeplin

01-30-2019, 06:09 PM

So basically Russia will own Venezuela's oil.

Rosneft will own x percent of the oil in whatever deal they make with the government of Venezuela. Standard business deal. Maduro isn't going to dig the oil out of the ground single-handedly with his sword.

Zippyjuan

01-30-2019, 06:15 PM

Rosneft will own x percent of the oil in whatever deal they make with the government of Venezuela. Standard business deal. Maduro isn't going to dig the oil out of the ground single-handedly with his sword.

Net income for Rosneft was $5 billion last year. Coincidentally, the same amount the Russians say is owed to them for the loans. The "x percent" is 100. Is that "standard"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosneft

juleswin

01-30-2019, 06:39 PM

Net income for Rosneft was $5 billion last year. Coincidentally, the same amount the Russians say is owed to them for the loans. The "x percent" is 100. Is that "standard"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosneft

They lent them $5 billion, why does this have to be a percentage of anything?

angelatc

01-30-2019, 06:43 PM

I really can't understand why its hard for you people to admit defeat.

Again we people here on the forums are being told we need to bend over and accept defeat. Bryan - WHY IS THIS TROLLING ALLOWED HERE?

We are all socialists now.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 06:44 PM

People like Peter Schiff say the US economy is on the verge of collapse even though it is working at the moment.

People like Ron Paul avoid trying to nail down the timing.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 06:48 PM

I have visited Saudi Arabia 4x in my lifetime and my dad has worked there since 1989, stayed in Abha and Riyhad most of the time and I can tell you that my quote is very true for me. The stores we went to were filled to the brim with food and other household goods.

Husband says that's because you're shopping where the Westerners shop. The stores there are filled with things imported specifically for you to buy. The areas where the westerners aren't so prevalent are much different. Although there's always a lot of dairy no matter where you go. And there's a huge demand for eye makeup everywhere as well.

juleswin

01-30-2019, 06:50 PM

Again we people here on the forums are being told we need to bend over and accept defeat. Bryan - WHY IS THIS TROLLING ALLOWED HERE?

Sorry Angelatc, I am not the one trolling you. Reality and you inability to concede to anything is the one trolling you. I read your debates on vaccines and just like this debate with me, you see any defeat as an affront to your intelligence and reputation on this site. This is why you can not and virtually have never conceded to anything.

I don't want to chase you from this site but I have witnessed and lived in a socialist success story and you calling me a troll will never change that.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 06:53 PM

Again we people here on the forums are being told we need to bend over and accept defeat. @Bryan (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=2) - WHY IS THIS TROLLING ALLOWED HERE?

We are all socialists now.
At the very least it needs to be explained why enemies are allowed to remain here.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 06:54 PM

Sorry Angelatc, I am not the one trolling you. Reality and you inability to concede to anything is the one trolling you. I read your debates on vaccines and just like this debate with me, you see any defeat as an affront to your intelligence and reputation on this site. This is why you can not and virtually have never conceded to anything.

I don't want to chase you from this site but I have witnessed and lived in a socialist success story and you calling me a troll will never change that.
It isn't a success story.

You claimed elsewhere you don't promote socialism.:rolleyes:

juleswin

01-30-2019, 06:58 PM

Husband says that's because you're shopping where the Westerners shop. The stores there are filled with things imported specifically for you to buy. The areas where the westerners aren't so prevalent are much different. Although there's always a lot of dairy no matter where you go. And there's a huge demand for eye makeup everywhere as well.

No no no, the American have their villages, their areas where they lived and worked. The Nigerians and other African live with regular Saudis. The apt my dad lived in were occupied by mainly Saudis not westerners. Trust me, I know what I am talking about.

Also, does your husband know about the city or shopping area called Kammis(pronounced)? the houses my dad build in Nigeria from all the money he made from Saudi Arabia were furnished 90% with good bought from that area, so not just home goods but high quality electronics. Washing machines, TVs, dining sets etc etc. I know would have known if I lived in a western area.

juleswin

01-30-2019, 06:59 PM

It isn't a success story.

You claimed elsewhere you don't promote socialism.:rolleyes:

I am not promoting anything just stating my reality.

AZJoe

01-30-2019, 07:12 PM

A much better analogy would be if after the last election, Trump just declared the House of Representatives no longer was an official body. Then he assembled a bunch of his rich supporters and declared they were now the governing body.
At that point, I suspect other nations would be recognizing Pelosi as the legitimate leader. Especially if it was written in their constitution.
Because that's exactly what Maduro did. And that's exactly who Guaidó is.

Not that any of this would justify Washington’s regime change coup, or sanctions, or economic war or economic blockade, or theft of assets. But it also nevertheless false.

While the analogy of having a foreign entity such as the EU just proclaim Trump illegitimate and appoint Pelosi as president is a good analogy to what Washington is doing, What Washington is doing is even worse. Pelosi is at least elected by the House of Representatives. The head of the Venezuela National Assembly is simply a rotating position. It is not even elected by the Assembly. But Guaido did spend years getting educated in Washington D.C., so perhaps that trumps (pun intended) any other sense of reality.

As to the Venezuelan Constitution making Guaido president, it provides no such thing. Nor has the Venezuelan Supreme Tribunal ruled in any such manner. The claimed basis for Guaido’s self-proclamation is Article 233 (https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/5) of the Venezuelan Charter.

Article 233 (https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/5) does not permit the assembly to remove the president. It only provides that the president of the National Assembly can fill the office of the presidency for 30 days if the president “shall become permanently unavailable to serve.” The Article specifies what is permanent unavailability, which includes removal from office by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, physical or mental disability, or abandonment of office. None of these things has occurred.

Guaido claims the election was not legitimate. However nothing in the Constitution says that that decision is up to Guaidó or even the National Assembly. (It also is not up to Washington, which doesn’t even bother to follow the U.S. Constitution). That decision is up to the Venezuela Supreme Tribunal. If anything it is Guaido that is not following the Constitution.

As to the Constituent Assembly, none of the members are appointed. Maduro has not appointed anyone to the Constituent Assembly. It is an entirely elected body by popular vote. It is provided for in the Venezuelan Constitution nd the President ,may call for a Constituent Assembly. Article 347 (https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/9). It is formed for constitutional reforms or dismissal of officers. The last one was called 1999 and lasted a year. That Constituent Assembly resulted in changing presidential term from five to six years, unifying the two legislative chambers into the National Assembly, and modifying the nation’s official name to Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

Lastly, whether Venezuela’s election is fair or not is not Washington’s job. Whether Maduro should be their president is not Washington’s job to decide. Whether they follow the Constitution is not Washington duty to decide. Washington does not follow its own Constitution.

Lest anyone lose focus, remember that Washington’s latest sponsored regime change coup attempt has absolutely nothing to do with democracy, or elections, or welfare of people. Washington embraces dictators, totalitarian regimes, wars, bombing, theft, corruption, assassinations, torture, and starvations – They are all A-Ok by Washington standards so long as either Washington is doing them or you tow Washington imperial directives.

But if only Maduro could be more like perhaps a totalitarian Saudi dictator, or any of the scores of other totalitarian dictators Washington has propped up. Maduro could invade and bomb a country like Yemen and implement a blockade of starvation on its people, then Washington would be so in love with Maduro. Washington would be doing whatever to keep in in power.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 07:19 PM

Not that any of this would justify Washington’s regime change coup, or sanctions, or economic war or economic blockade, or theft of assets. But it also nevertheless false.
.

LOL - of course it is. Swordsmyth, you nailed it.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 07:26 PM

LOL - of course it is. Swordsmyth, you nailed it.
I was cheating.
devil21 already used that talking point on me the other night.
Communists are supposed to be 100% honest but not one thing reported against them by any other source is ever true.:rolleyes:

AZJoe

01-30-2019, 07:45 PM

According to the Venezuelan constitution, the President of the Parliament is second in line to the presidency, behind the Vice President. (https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/5)
This is another falsehood. Read the actual verbiage. Guaido cites Article 233 of the Venezuelan Charter for his misbelief. Go read it.
Article 233 (https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/5) does not permit the assembly to remove the president. It only provides that the president of the National Assembly can fill the office of the presidency for 30 days if the president “shall become permanently unavailable to serve.” The Article specifies what is permanent unavailability, which includes removal from office by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, physical or mental disability, or abandonment of office. None of these things has occurred.

2014: Guaido's mentor, head of the opposition party Leopoldo Lopez, is jailed and legally prohibited from running for office. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/leopoldo-lopez-venezuela-opposition-leader-popular) (He is still in prison.)
Yes Lopez is a felon that was sentenced to 14 years back in 2014. As such he was disqualified for running for President in 2017. Well Duh.

2015: Venezuela lame duck Parliament Stacks their version of SCOTUS with Maduro supporters.
(https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-23/venezuela-s-lame-duck-congress-names-new-supreme-court-justices)
And? Wow. Politicians and parties doing what politicians and parties do right here in the good ol USA. If that justified regime change, then it would justify the EU appointing the president of the United States.

2017: Maduro creates Constituent Assembly, consisting entirely of government supporters. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/01/venezuelas-dubious-new-constituent-assembly-explained/)
Now this one is false. None of the members of the Constituent Assembly are appointed. They are all chosen by popular vote. The Venezuelan Constitution Article 347 (https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/9) specifically authorizes the calling for a Constituent Assembly. The Constituent Assembly iis formed for constitutional reforms or dismissal of officers. The last one was called 1999 and lasted a year. That Constituent Assembly resulted in changing presidential term from five to six years, unifying the two legislative chambers into the National Assembly, and modifying the nation’s official name to Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

2017: Maduro strips parliament of power. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/19/venezuela-crisis-deepens-maduro-strips-opposition-held-parliament-power)
This again is false. The Constituent Assembly did so. It is a radical move, but Like it or not that is Constitutional per the Venezuelan Constitution. IT does nto justify Washington interference in Venezuela's politics, regime, sanctions, seizure of assets or economic warfare.

We don't have to like Guaido. He's a socialist, and his above-mentioned mentor isn't pure by any definition. But I like him more than Maduro because he's not Maduro.
Of course you can favor one socialist over the other. Guaido is more than just an alternative socialist, he is also a puppet in the pocket of foreign power. But if you really like you as an individual can support him all you want. Send money to your favorite socialist.

However, we should all oppose Washington's stirring up a coup and interference in their politics. Every foreign intervention Washington does just leaves more negative consequences, often hideously disastrous. do stirs up more devastation and trouble.

Maduro banned the opposition from the ballots in the last one. (http://time.com/5058003/venezuela-nicolas-maduro-opposition-banned/)
This false. Just opposition fake talking points. Lopez was disqualified years before the election by being an incarcerated felon. MUD could have selected any eligible candidate. Further the main opposition candidate Falcon did participate. So did Bertucci. Six candidates in total and 16 political parties.

The bottom line is none of this is Washington's concern. Washington's job is not to appoint the President of Venezuela. Its job is not to prop up dictators like the Saudi regime. It ought to focus on obeying the U.S. Constitution rather than worry about foreign Constitutions. Washington can't even follow the U.S. Constitution. We have deep state elements trying to rig the U.S. presidential election. An entire manufactured Russiagate. A impossible and slow motion economic collapse.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 07:56 PM

This is another falsehood. Read the actual verbiage. Guaido cites Article 233 of the Venezuelan Charter for his misbelief. Go read it.
Article 233 (https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/5) does not permit the assembly to remove the president. It only provides that the president of the National Assembly can fill the office of the presidency for 30 days if the president “shall become permanently unavailable to serve.” The Article specifies what is permanent unavailability, which includes removal from office by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, physical or mental disability, or abandonment of office. None of these things has occurred.

Yes Lopez is a felon that was sentenced to 14 years back in 2014. As such he was disqualified for running for President in 2017. Well Duh.

And? Wow. Politicians and parties doing what politicians and parties do right here in the good ol USA. If that justified regime change, then it would justify the EU appointing the president of the United States.

Now this one is false. None of the members of the Constituent Assembly are appointed. They are all chosen by popular vote. The Venezuelan Constitution Article 347 (https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/9) specifically authorizes the calling for a Constituent Assembly. The Constituent Assembly iis formed for constitutional reforms or dismissal of officers. The last one was called 1999 and lasted a year. That Constituent Assembly resulted in changing presidential term from five to six years, unifying the two legislative chambers into the National Assembly, and modifying the nation’s official name to Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

This again is false. The Constituent Assembly did so. It is a radical move, but Like it or not that is Constitutional per the Venezuelan Constitution. IT does nto justify Washington interference in Venezuela's politics, regime, sanctions, seizure of assets or economic warfare.

Certainly you can favor one socialist over the other. Guadio is more than just an alternative socialist, he is also a puppet in the pocket of foreign power. We should all oppose Washington's stirring up a coup and interference in their politics. Every foreign intervention Washington does just leaves more negative consequences, often hideously disastrous. do stirs up more devastation and trouble.

This false. Just opposition fake talking points. Lopez was disqualified years before the election by being an incarcerated felon. MUD could have selected any eligible candidate. Further the main opposition candidate Falcon did participate. So did Bertucci. Six candidates in total and 16 political parties.

The bottom line is none of this is Washington's concern. Washington's job is not to appoint the President of Venezuela. Its job is not to prop up dictators like the Saudi regime. It ought to focus on obeying the U.S. Constitution rather than worry about foreign Constitutions. Washington can't even follow the U.S. Constitution. We have deep state elements trying to rig the U.S. presidential election. An entire manufactured Russiagate. A impossible and slow motion economic collapse.

Yep. Every single article I posted is false, and everything you say without quoting a single source is true. AZJoe explains it all.

(For those of you not clicking the links, almost all of those are the actual headlines.)

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 07:59 PM

Yep. Every single article I posted is false, and everything you say without quoting a single source is true. AZJoe explains it all.

(For those of you not clicking the links, almost all of those are the actual headlines.)
Did he neg you for daring to disagree too?

AZJoe

01-30-2019, 08:05 PM

Ywithout quoting a single source is true.

I'm beginning to think Angela is intentionally trying to look idiotic. The links are are directly to the Constitution. Try reading it. I even embedded the links so it jsut takes a finger click to do.
The logical reasoning is based on logical reasoning. and the rest is verified by the angela's own links.
President Bolton and co. announces regime change and people just lose all semblance of thinking ability blindly jumping on the regime change, go interfere in the internal politics of other sovereign nations bandwagon. Good grief.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 08:13 PM

I'm beginning to think Angela is intentionally trying to look idiotic. The links are are directly to the Constitution. Try reading it. I even embedded the links so it jsut takes a finger click to do.
The logical reasoning is based on logical reasoning. and the rest is verified by the angela's own links.
President Bolton and co. announces regime change and people just lose all semblance of thinking ability blindly jumping on the regime change, go interfere in the internal politics of other sovereign nations bandwagon. Good grief.
Please post an example of angela or me saying we should interfere.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 08:17 PM

I'm beginning to think Angela is intentionally trying to look idiotic. The links are are directly to the Constitution. Try reading it. I even embedded the links so it jsut takes a finger click to do.
The logical reasoning is based on logical reasoning. and the rest is verified by the angela's own links.
President Bolton and co. announces regime change and people just lose all semblance of thinking ability blindly jumping on the regime change, go interfere in the internal politics of other sovereign nations bandwagon. Good grief.

You asked me for proof to support my Americanized analogy.

The first link is to the Constitution, and it actually does state that the President of the Parliament is second in line for the presidency.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 08:26 PM

Yes Lopez is a felon that was sentenced to 14 years back in 2014. As such he was disqualified for running for President in 2017. Well Duh.

"....a felon"

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/americas/leopoldo-lpez-fast-facts/index.html

- Was re-elected mayor of Chacao with 81% of the vote and ended the term with a 92% approval rating.

- Chavez's government has banned hundreds of other politicians from parties opposed to Chavez.

February 13, 2014 - After at least three people are killed during an anti-government protest in Caracas, a Venezuelan court issues an arrest warrant for Lopez. Authorities claim he is responsible for the violence. He is charged with conspiracy, murder, and terrorism.

February 18, 2014 - López turns himself in.

February 19-20, 2014 - A hearing to charge López takes place. Prosecutors drop the charges of murder and terrorism.

April 4, 2014 - Venezuela's attorney general announces that López has been formally charged with public incitement, property damage, arson and conspiracy. Activists hold a protest in Caracas to declare López's innocence.

September 10, 2015 - Is convicted and sentenced to nearly 14 years in prison.

Nothing political about that, though. :rolleyes:

I think your logical reasoning is what most of us call denial.

AZJoe

01-30-2019, 08:37 PM

Please post an example of angela or me saying we should interfere.

If you oppose Washington' latest regime change operation, then we agree. But show me. Where are the posts opposing Pence phone call goading Guaido's announcement, the seizure of Venezuelan assets, the sanctions, backing of Guaido, the pressuring other nations to do same, the lobbying to withhold Venezuelan gold, the Trump tweet announcing Guaido? Where are these posts criticizing their moves and arguments for intervention?

It seems whenever anyone opposes this interventionist regime change, there is SS with some post shifting the focus away from the issue of interventionism and instead to argument of "Maduro bad" "election rigged" "Guaido is legitimate". These very same arguments Bolton and Pompeo and Co. are pushing to justify their regime change coup backing.

If SS really is against interventionism in Venezuela then come right out front and center and smack down Trump and Bolton and Pompeo. Hit them hard on this as they deserve. Let's see it. Don't try and hide behind this "I'm only pushing their arguments they use to justify intervention, not the intervention itself."

AZJoe

01-30-2019, 08:40 PM

"....a felon"

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/americas/leopoldo-lpez-fast-facts/index.html ...

April 4, 2014 - Venezuela's attorney general announces that López has been formally charged with public incitement, property damage, arson and conspiracy. ... September 10, 2015 - Is convicted and sentenced to nearly 14 years in prison.

Angela's posts are going into bizarro world now. Questions his felon status, while posting proof he is indeed a convicted felon - one who is convicted of a felony.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 08:43 PM

If you oppose Washington' latest regime change operation, then we agree. But show me. Where are the post opposing Pence phone call goading Guaido's announcement, the seizure of Venezuelan assets, the sanctions, backing of Guaido, the pressuring other nations to do same, the lobbying to withhold Venezuelan gold, the Trump tweet announcing Guaido? Where are these posts criticizing their moves and arguments for intervention?

It seems whenever anyone opposes this interventionist regime change, there is SS with some post shifting the focus away from the issue of interventionism and instead to argument of "Maduro bad" "election rigged" "Guaido is legitimate". These very same arguments Bolton and Pompeo and Co. are pushing to justify their regime change coup backing.

If SS really is against interventionism in Venezuela then come right out front and center and smack down Trump and Bolton and Pompeo. Hit them hard on this as they deserve. Let's see it. Don't try and hide behind this "I'm only pushing their arguments the use to justify intervention, not the intervention itself."
In almost every post I have made on the subject I say we should keep our hands off and do nothing.
There are plenty of people shouting us staying out of it I agree or don't argue with them about it but too many people are claiming that Chavez and Maduro are saints who never did anything wrong and that the people of Venezuela shouldn't overthrow the communist regime.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 08:43 PM

Angela's posts are going into bizarro world now. Questions his felon status, while posting proof he is indeed a convicted felon - one who is convicted of a felony.

By a Kangaroo court.

Ender

01-30-2019, 08:49 PM

angelatc

01-30-2019, 08:50 PM

Now this one is false. None of the members of the Constituent Assembly are appointed. They are all chosen by popular vote.

LOL @ popular vote. All the candidates were selected by the government. (https://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-venezuela-constitution-20170730-htmlstory.html)

The constitutional assembly, which only has candidates put forward by the government, “would mark the end of whatever is left of Venezuela's democracy and rule of law," said Francisco Monaldi, an economist and fellow in Latin American energy policy at Rice University’s Baker Institute for Public Policy.

So like I said, the president's party lost the majority in Parliament in an election. He responded by then creating a new body, having an election where all the candidates were known to support him, then taking away the powers of the Parliament that was actually elected.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 08:52 PM

Angela's posts are going into bizarro world now. Questions his felon status, while posting proof he is indeed a convicted felon - one who is convicted of a felony.

Holy crap - you're not just in denial, you're also friggin blind.

Ender

01-30-2019, 08:52 PM

LOL @ popular vote. All the candidates were selected by the government. (https://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-venezuela-constitution-20170730-htmlstory.html)

So like I said, the president's party lost the majority in Parliament in an election. He responded by then creating a new body, having an election where all the candidates were known to support him, then taking away the powers of the Parliament that was actually elected.

Ahhh- so the MSM is reliable when it posts propaganda that you approve of- I get it.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 08:53 PM

Ahhh- so the MSM is reliable when it posts propaganda that you approve of- I get it.

And communists are 100% trust worthy all the time- I get it.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 08:55 PM

Exactly.
How many time do I have to say we should stay out of it?

Just because Bolton and company are bad doesn't mean that Maduro is good or that the people of Venezuela shouldn't overthrow him.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 08:56 PM

In almost every post I have made on the subject I say we should keep our hands off and do nothing.
There are plenty of people shouting us staying out of it I agree or don't argue with them about it but too many people are claiming that Chavez and Maduro are saints who never did anything wrong and that the people of Venezuela shouldn't overthrow the communist regime.

Don't forget that the uprisings are entirely orchestrated by the CIA. The frogs have been boiled. No way would trivial things like starvation and poverty drive them to protest in the streets. That's madness.

AZJoe

01-30-2019, 09:00 PM

By a Kangaroo court.

Kangaroo court or not, legally he is a felon. Maybe he did maybe he didn't but legally he is a convicted felon. SS does nto know despite his professed magical insight that can say wth certainty that it is impossible that a radical leftist puppet of the NED could incite riots, commit arson or conspire. No that could never happen. It is ludicrous hubris for SS to think he knows all. We don't know, which is another reason why Washington should keep its hands out of Venezuela's internal politics.

But thanks for this great argument against Washington's regime change coup. I see how SS is such a strong advocate against interventionism.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 09:00 PM

And communists are 100% trust worthy all the time- I get it.

People aren't really starving there. There's actually plenty of medicine in the hospitals. The millions of people who the media claims have fled? Actually just extended vacations, because they're all so very. very prosperous.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 09:01 PM

Don't forget that the uprisings are entirely orchestrated by the CIA. The frogs have been boiled. No way would trivial things like starvation and poverty drive them to protest in the streets. That's madness.
The US is the sole cause of the poverty and starvation, we also are responsible for the collectivos and everything else.:rolleyes:

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 09:04 PM

Kangaroo court or not, legally he is a felon. Maybe he did maybe he didn't but legally he is a convicted felon. SS does nto know despite his professed magical insight that can say wth certainty that it is impossible that a radical leftist puppet of the NED could incite riots, commit arson or conspire. No that could never happen. It is ludicrous hubris for SS to think he knows all. We don't know, which is another reason why Washington should keep its hands out of Venezuela's internal politics.
It is part of a pattern of behavior by Chavez and Maduro and every other communist dictator in history.
Technically we don't know all the details and that IS another reason we should stay out of it.

But thanks for this great argument against Washington's regime change coup. I see how SS is such a strong advocate against interventionism.
I only say we should stay out of it every time I post about it, that must prove I want to nuke Venezuela and occupy the ashes.:rolleyes:

angelatc

01-30-2019, 09:04 PM

Kangaroo court or not, legally he is a felon. Maybe he did maybe he didn't but legally he is a convicted felon.

Hugo Chavez was a convicted felon because he actually attempted a military coup, remember? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Venezuelan_coup_d%27état_attempts)

And besides, when did we all decide that being a felon should mean you can't run for office? I must have been absent that day.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 09:09 PM

It is part of a pattern of behavior by Chavez and Maduro and every other communist dictator in history.
Technically we don't know all the details and that IS another reason we should stay out of it.

I only say we should stay out of it every time I post about it, that must prove I want to nuke Venezuela and occupy the ashes.:rolleyes:

If we hadn't picked a side, or had picked the other side, the other half of the forums would be screaming that the CIA was running cover for the bankers and crabbing about how the Rothschild-controlled oligarchs were looting the country.

specsaregood

01-30-2019, 09:09 PM

People aren't really starving there. There's actually plenty of medicine in the hospitals. The millions of people who the media claims have fled? Actually just extended vacations, because they're all so very. very prosperous.

When arguing with Anarchists, one must remember that their number one goal is for any government or society to collapse. So of course they are going to defend Maduro when his govt is on the verge of collapse. They don't want anybody to go in there and prop it up or replace it with another govt.

And no, we shouldn't do anything about it, but I'm not going to defend the douchebags that have driven it to collapse.

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 09:12 PM

Hugo Chavez was a convicted felon because he actually attempted a military coup, remember? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Venezuelan_coup_d%27état_attempts)

And besides, when did we all decide that being a felon should mean you can't run for office? I must have been absent that day.
The leftarians want us to let all felons vote in spite of the fact that it will elect more communists.

I'm beginning to detect a pattern, whether it is conscious or unconscious I can't say in every case but it seems that leftarians want communists to win and stay in power.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 09:12 PM

angelatc

01-30-2019, 09:15 PM

The leftarians want us to let all felons vote in spite of the fact that it will elect more communists.

I'm beginning to detect a pattern, whether it is conscious or unconscious I can't say in every case but it seems that leftarians want communists to win and stay in power.

I am pretty much a fan of not letting government stop people from running for office for any reason. Just now learning that some of us actually like it when the government pre-approves the candidates.

Heck, we're out there trying to get a 3rd candidate on the debate stages. What were we thinking?

Swordsmyth

01-30-2019, 09:15 PM

When arguing with Anarchists, one must remember that their number one goal is for any government or society to collapse. So of course they are going to defend Maduro when his govt is on the verge of collapse. They don't want anybody to go in there and prop it up or replace it with another govt.

And no, we shouldn't do anything about it, but I'm not going to defend the douchebags that have driven it to collapse.
In this case it is the uprising that might complete the collapse and they want to see Maduro's communist regime survive.

I'm beginning to detect a pattern, whether it is conscious or unconscious I can't say in every case but it seems that leftarians and anarchists want communists to win and stay in power.

specsaregood

01-30-2019, 09:20 PM

I am pretty much a fan of not letting government stop people from running for office for any reason. Just now learning that some of us actually like it when the government pre-approves the candidates.

Heck, we're out there trying to get a 3rd candidate on the debate stages. What were we thinking?

Indeed. I coulda sworn most people were happy to see James Traficant (felon) run for office even if they disagreed with his views.

angelatc

01-30-2019, 09:23 PM

And no, we shouldn't do anything about it, but I'm not going to defend the douchebags that have driven it to collapse.

According to the leftists, we're the douchebags that have driven it to collapse.

RonZeplin

01-31-2019, 12:19 AM

https://youtu.be/UCESJ5JcJXc

AZJoe

01-31-2019, 09:04 AM

The US is the sole cause of the poverty and starvation, we also are responsible for the collectivos and everything else.:rolleyes:

What it this hyperbole absurdum? To quote the SS - "Thank you for your deep philosophical insight and illuminating suggestions (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?530718-Revolutions-and-foreign-intervention&p=6741271&viewfull=1#post6741271)"

And quit confusing the government with the US. They are not the same. The government in Washington is not the US. In fact it is the greatest existential threat to the United States. Those who rightly criticize its antics are standing up and defending the US.

SS keeps getting triggered anytime there is criticism of the stupid, imperial, aggressive, totalitarian antics Washington commits. Pretending Washington is some angel. Can't criticise or SS gets triggered.
U.S. just had 17 armored vehicles, overhead helicopter, scores of agents armed with rifles, two armored amphibious vehicles to raid a journalist Roger Stone in the predawn hours in a residential neighborhood. This wasn;t Venezuela. This was the U.S. government. How quickly SS turns a blind eye.
Or how about the Bundy Ranch disaster and scores of other that, and hundreds more that never make the headlines.
On top of that it is the U.S. government that is aiding and enabling the Saudi bombing and starvation blockade of its neighbor.
It is the U.S. government unilaterally imposing economic warfare and economic blockading of Iran and calling for regime change or , bombing outright invasion of IRan.
We could go on and on - Washington deep state fabricating russiagate to manipulate elections.
Washington repeat political and electoral intervention in virtually every country in Latin America as well as SE Asia.
And then there is Syria, Ukraine, Georgia, Iraq, Afghanistan, - it is a never ending list.

PAF

01-31-2019, 09:07 AM

...

Evidently one must be of age and not news worthy enough for everybody to see. I wanted to copy/paste to share elsewhere this is what I got:

6323

AZJoe

01-31-2019, 09:12 AM

According to the leftists, we're the douchebags that have driven it to collapse.

Yes we all know socialism is a horrible economic policy and leads to impoverishment for any nation that embraces it.

But why is anglea also a turning blind eye to the accelerants factors. So is anglea claiming sanctions, economic warfare, blockading, seizing assets, threatening countries not to do business, lobbying London to seize their gold, fostering violent regime change, funding covert ops via NGOs lioke NED and USAID, directly interfering in the politics - that all this can't possibly have any negative effect. These actions are like throwing gasoline on an already smoldering building.

We can't stop if other nations embrace socialist policies which includes most of Europe now - policies that U.S. itself is also embracing itself unfortunately.
But you can stop exacerbating the situation with interventionist policies, sanctions and economic warfare.

AZJoe

01-31-2019, 09:38 AM

And that's the rub. Either the USA moves to play a role in the succession, or we sit back and watch the Super Bowl while China and Russia take control.

And there you have it. At least no more pretense. Directly advocating in favor of the Washington's regime change coup to appoint Guaido.
A coup which has absolutely nothing to do with free markets or socialism or elections.

So far, Washington's latest sponsored coup has already failed. The world has gotten wise to the antics.
Washington called on the Venezuela military to rise up and support Washington's pronouncements. The military opposes it.
Washington called on the masses to revolt. They didn't and overwhelmingly oppose it.
Yes Washington covert programs and NGOs like NED, USAID or Soros' Open Society and other works have fostered up small pockets. But despite all that covert interference in domestic politics , for decades now, it still fizzled out just like the prior regime change attempt.

Now if Washington does not like the fact that Russia and China are making trade deals with Venezuela regarding oil and gold, the proper response is to out compete freely and offer better trade options. It is not to counter such trade with use of force - threats, sanctions, sponsored coup attempts, economic blockades, seizing assets. All these things are anti-free market - the opposite of free market.

Washington's proper response should be to implement free market - open trade and let it flow: end sanctions, open trade, stop interfering in domestic politics, stop sponsoring regime change coups, stop the economic blockade, stop seizing assets, stop using SWIFT and dollar denominated banking as a weapon. And to become more competitive cut government, cut taxes, cut foreign interventionist spending boondoggles, cut regulation a, cut licensing, eliminate the deficit, diminish the debt, stop the boondoggles, get out of the way. That is the proper way to be competitive, not through use of force.

AZJoe

01-31-2019, 09:52 AM

Key points to remember. Washington's sponsored regime change coup to appoint Guiado has absolutely nothing to do with socialism or free markets or even elections. It is rather globalist vs national sovereignty. Guaido backed by the globalists. Maduro is resisting the globalist.

It has everything to do with imperial domination of oil trade and dollar dominance.

Washington does not want Venezuela partnering with Russia and China for oil development and export.
Washington opposes Venezuela recent trade of oil for gold or Euros.
Washington opposes Venezuela control of its own oil trade and trading directly with China, India, Russia, Europe.
Washington opposes Venezuela's recent call as head of OPEC to diversify oil trade out of dollars.
Washington opposes Venezuela's recently inked gold for refining deal with Turkey.

Of course these ar all things that should happen in a free market. They should have the ability to trade and make deals with whoever they want for the best outcome. that is free trade.,
Washington opposes free trade. Washington ants to control the trade by force, niot be free markets.

It is Washington's own antics that have cut it out of these deals. Washington could easily get itself back into the trade by actually embracing free trade. US oil exploration and development could be in Venezuela right now instead of Russia or China together with them competing or even joint venture or others. Washington could prevent the desire for nations to drop dollar trade, by stop using SWIFT and dollar transaction as weapons to impose its imperial decrees. Washington could do lots of free market things like ending the sanctions, opening tade with Venezuela, stop using banks and SWIFT and dollar transactions as weapons, stop seizing assets of other nations, stop interfering in domestic politics manufacturing and funding opposition groups to thwart domestic policy. Virtually every action Washington has been taking is anti-free market.

1. In October Venezuela ended the use of dollar for international transactions, in favor of the Euro and Yuan (https://venezuelanalysis.com/audio/14106).
2. This month Venezuela signs deal for gold refining operations in Turkey.
3. Last Month Venezuela, with the world's largest known oil reserves, signs a deal with Russia to beef up its oil production.
4. This month Venezuela assumed the presidency of OPEC and began a push for oil sales in non-dollar currencies (https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/14213).
5. This month Venezuela gave the go ahead for Russian gold mining inside Venezuela.
*** Now all of a sudden frantic and desperate Washington announces it has appointed a new President to rule over Venezuela. COINCIDENCE?

angelatc

01-31-2019, 10:12 AM

And there you have it. At least no more pretense. Directly advocating in favor of the Washington's regime change coup to appoint Guaido.
A coup which has absolutely nothing to do with free markets or socialism or elections.

It's a humanitarian crisis. I've never been against diplomatic intervention, only military interventionism. You're just going to need to learn to live with that.

So far, Washington's latest sponsored coup has already failed. The world has gotten wise to the antics.
.

In the mere minutes since you posted this, the EU has announced it now recognizes Guaido. (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/eu-vote-venezuela-guaido-1.5000036)

angelatc

01-31-2019, 10:27 AM

Maduro has arrested 11 journalists:

https://twitter.com/Naldoxx/status/1090807622805135360 1090807622805135360

Brian4Liberty

01-31-2019, 10:49 AM

i got negged for this, with 'proof' as the angry comment.

OK;

According to the Venezuelan constitution, the President of the Parliament is second in line to the presidency, behind the Vice President. (https://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution/title/5)

2010; Guaido elected to Venezuela's National Assembly (their parliament) as an alternate in the minority party. (http://efectococuyo.com/principales/voluntad-popular-confirma-que-propondra-a-juan-guaido-para-presidir-la-an-en-2019)

2014: Guaido's mentor, head of the opposition party Leopoldo Lopez, is jailed and legally prohibited from running for office. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/leopoldo-lopez-venezuela-opposition-leader-popular) (He is still in prison.)

2015: Opposition party wins majority of Parliament. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Venezuelan_parliamentary_election)

2015: Venezuela lame duck Parliament Stacks their version of SCOTUS with Maduro supporters.
(https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-23/venezuela-s-lame-duck-congress-names-new-supreme-court-justices)

2017: Maduro creates Constituent Assembly, consisting entirely of government supporters. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/01/venezuelas-dubious-new-constituent-assembly-explained/)

2017: Maduro strips parliament of power. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/19/venezuela-crisis-deepens-maduro-strips-opposition-held-parliament-power)

2019: Juan Guaidó elected president of their parliament, the National Assembly. (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/world/americas/venezuela-maduro-national-guard.html)

Hope this helps, AZJoe

We don't have to like Guaido. He's a socialist, and his above-mentioned mentor isn't pure by any definition. But I like him more than Maduro because he's not Maduro. And he's only lobbying for an election, not a full term, because Maduro banned the opposition from the ballots in the last one. (http://time.com/5058003/venezuela-nicolas-maduro-opposition-banned/)

As I’ve said since day one on this, it’s another rock and a hard place problem. There is an authoritarian communist govt, and now there is opposition with a neocon puppet leader in Guaido.

In the article linked above, they use the interesting word “installed” about Guaido:

Juan Guaidó, the recently installed president of the National Assembly who is leading the effort to establish a transitional government.

This quote below basically says it was a rotating position among opposition parties, and when Guaido’s party’s turn came, somehow Guaido became the nominee even though he was forth in line. And then he takes this opportunity to immediately declare himself President after consultations with Mike Pence. He was also heavily supported by Marco Rubio.

Guaidó is known as the president of the opposition-dominated National Assembly, but he was never elected to the position. The four opposition parties that comprised the Assembly’s Democratic Unity Table had decided to establish a rotating presidency. Popular Will’s turn was on the way, but its founder, Lopez, was under house arrest. Meanwhile, his second-in-charge, Guevara, had taken refuge in the Chilean embassy. A figure named Juan Andrés Mejía would have been next in line but reasons that are only now clear, Juan Guaido was selected.
...
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2019/january/29/the-making-of-juan-guaido-how-the-us-regime-change-laboratory-created-venezuelas-coup-leader/

A lesser of two evils choice? Good thing we never have that in US elections...

Brian4Liberty

01-31-2019, 10:53 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMplqEpfGhs

You may not agree politically with Dore (no doubt most here don't) but
give him credit for calling it like he sees it. Most so called big D "Democrats"
despise him (look at DU).

And you may not agree with Abby Martin but she has spent a lot of time in
Venezuela, while most of the people that bash her (and the country) haven't
ever been to South America once.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3M7l8ved_rYQ45AVzS0RGA

Abby Martin- Empire Files
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG29FnXZm4F5U8xpqs1cs1Q

Venezuelan govt propaganda or neocon propaganda, which to believe?

Venezuela Propaganda Debunked - People Are Against Coup

In this situation, I don’t believe anyone that professes to speak “for the people”, or that try to tell us what “the people” want.

devil21

01-31-2019, 10:57 AM

Brian4Liberty

01-31-2019, 11:05 AM

Twitter source as proof? lol

It's a hoot watching a real "Infowar" playing out in real time, when seemingly half of the population believes the official story and the other half thinks it's another CIA overthrow. The mental gymnastics and hypocrisy of some that deride others for "Orange man bad" posts have the same visceral "Brown man bad" reaction over Maduro and apparently don't see the irony.

Unfortunately, I’d wager that a good portion of the people (in the general population) who oppose it as a “CIA overthrow” are really defending socialism and the communist government, and would have no problem with a US sponsored overthrow if it was to support a communist taking power.

UWDude

01-31-2019, 11:13 AM

angelatc

01-31-2019, 11:32 AM

As I’ve said since day one on this, it’s another rock and a hard place problem. There is an authoritarian communist govt, and now there is opposition with a neocon puppet leader in Guaido.

In the article linked above, they use the interesting word “installed” about Guaido:

This quote below basically says it was a rotating position among opposition parties, and when Guaido’s party’s turn came, somehow Guaido became the nominee even though he was forth in line. And then he takes this opportunity to immediately declare himself President after consultations with Mike Pence. He was also heavily supported by Marco Rubio.

.

It's party politics. All 4 of those mentioned belong to the same party. Gauaido is the hand-picked successor to Lopez, who in prison for being a political dissident.

angelatc

01-31-2019, 11:34 AM

Twitter source as proof?

This denial is bordering on insanity now. (I don't know why this surprises me. )

He's an established, award winning journalist in Venezuela. Yes, he's publishing on Twitter.

ETA: Here's a French newspaper seemingly conforming (https://www.france24.com/en/20190131-five-foreign-journalists-arrested-venezuela) although at the time that was published the number was only 5. Appears there's a sweep.

angelatc

01-31-2019, 11:41 AM

Unfortunately, I’d wager that a good portion of the people (in the general population) who oppose it as a “CIA overthrow” are really defending socialism and the communist government, and would have no problem with a US sponsored overthrow if it was to support a communist taking power.

There's a whole bunch of them. According to them, everything that's wrong in Venezuela is America's fault. We are hoarding their food, we tapped into our natural gas reserves specifically to allow their price of oil to drop, and we won't send them any food of medicine.

Reality, price caps create shortages, they fired all their actual oil workers, and they won't allow us to send them any aid.

angelatc

01-31-2019, 11:45 AM

Venezuelan govt propaganda or neocon propaganda, which to believe?

She's literally paid by Venezuela's government.

In this situation, I don’t believe anyone that professes to speak “for the people”, or that try to tell us what “the people” want.

And that's because there are at least two different opinions on everything. Even Hitler had lots of support.

The American revolutionaries only had about 20-25% support. The recognition and support from foreign governments was the catalyst for independence.

Brian4Liberty

01-31-2019, 11:48 AM

If you mean on these boards, you'd lose that wager.

Yeah, which is why I added “in the general population”. If I use the word “people”, it is usually in the general sense, but sometimes people think it applies to participants in the current thread.

juleswin

01-31-2019, 11:49 AM

If you mean on these boards, you'd lose that wager.

Amen to that. There is this idea by the establisment neocon types that we oppose interventionism because we support Saddam, Gaddafi, Assad, Maduro or we are secret communist. They would say this without ever giving you an example where you supported intervention of any kind.

This needed to be said cos this is not going to be the last time someone tries to use this insane idea to smear anti war folks of this forum. The neocons are getting mad around here.

Brian4Liberty

01-31-2019, 11:57 AM

There's a whole bunch of them. According to them, everything that's wrong in Venezuela is America's fault. We are hoarding their food, we tapped into our natural gas reserves specifically to allow their price of oil to drop, and we won't send them any food of medicine.

Reality, price caps create shortages, they fired all their actual oil workers, and they won't allow us to send them any aid.

Yep. Count me out on any defense of communism and socialism. And the biggest fallacy is “oh, see it worked over there for a while.” The corruption of socialism and communism happens over time. Sometimes very fast, other times over a period of years. But the end result of totalitarian kleptocracy and economic collapse is always the same.

angelatc

01-31-2019, 12:02 PM

Ender

01-31-2019, 12:16 PM

Amen to that. There is this idea by the establisment neocon types that we oppose interventionism because we support Saddam, Gaddafi, Assad, Maduro or we are secret communist. They would say this without ever giving you an example where you supported intervention of any kind.

This needed to be said cos this is not going to be the last time someone tries to use this insane idea to smear anti war folks of this forum. The neocons are getting mad around here.

You just noticed? :speaknoevil:

devil21

01-31-2019, 12:47 PM

juleswin

01-31-2019, 12:50 PM

Yep. Count me out on any defense of communism and socialism. And the biggest fallacy is “oh, see it worked over there for a while.” The corruption of socialism and communism happens over time. Sometimes very fast, other times over a period of years. But the end result of totalitarian kleptocracy and economic collapse is always the same.

Yes, things work until they stop working. For how long have we been hearing that Cuba is going to collapse. You guys know Cuba right? just about the only communism country left in the world(atleast as communism as you can get). Not just that it is suffering under a communist govt, it has also suffered decades of sanctions and blockade by the most powerful country ever existed and it still hasn't collapsed.

A brilliant scientist once said

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

So the fact that reality has shown you that collapse is not inevitable should give you pause to reassess your theory. Collapse is not inevitable when humans are concerned. Humans have trived in less that ideal conditions, they have trived in areas with little food, little water, extreme heat/cold, disease infested and so on. To think a mere govt cage will break this streak is laughable.

devil21

01-31-2019, 01:16 PM

This denial is bordering on insanity now. (I don't know why this surprises me. )

He's an established, award winning journalist in Venezuela. Yes, he's publishing on Twitter.

ETA: Here's a French newspaper seemingly conforming (https://www.france24.com/en/20190131-five-foreign-journalists-arrested-venezuela) although at the time that was published the number was only 5. Appears there's a sweep.

Could be a shutting down of foreign press. Could be identified as foreign intel operatives working under press credentials also. Who knows. Still, presenting anything from twitter alone as a source should always be laughed at. Disinfo on twitter is out-of-control.

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 01:28 PM

What it this hyperbole absurdum? To quote the SS - "Thank you for your deep philosophical insight and illuminating suggestions (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?530718-Revolutions-and-foreign-intervention&p=6741271&viewfull=1#post6741271)"

And quit confusing the government with the US. They are not the same. The government in Washington is not the US. In fact it is the greatest existential threat to the United States. Those who rightly criticize its antics are standing up and defending the US.

SS keeps getting triggered anytime there is criticism of the stupid, imperial, aggressive, totalitarian antics Washington commits. Pretending Washington is some angel. Can't criticise or SS gets triggered.
U.S. just had 17 armored vehicles, overhead helicopter, scores of agents armed with rifles, two armored amphibious vehicles to raid a journalist Roger Stone in the predawn hours in a residential neighborhood. This wasn;t Venezuela. This was the U.S. government. How quickly SS turns a blind eye.
Or how about the Bundy Ranch disaster and scores of other that, and hundreds more that never make the headlines.
On top of that it is the U.S. government that is aiding and enabling the Saudi bombing and starvation blockade of its neighbor.
It is the U.S. government unilaterally imposing economic warfare and economic blockading of Iran and calling for regime change or , bombing outright invasion of IRan.
We could go on and on - Washington deep state fabricating russiagate to manipulate elections.
Washington repeat political and electoral intervention in virtually every country in Latin America as well as SE Asia.
And then there is Syria, Ukraine, Georgia, Iraq, Afghanistan, - it is a never ending list.
I am not claiming that the US government is a saint and never does anything wrong or that it hasn't interfered in Venezuela specifically.
I am claiming that Chavez and Maduro have done much more to Venezuela than we ever could without invading.

You seem to think that a person or group must either be responsible for everything or nothing.:rolleyes:

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 01:30 PM

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 01:31 PM

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 01:35 PM

This denial is bordering on insanity now. (I don't know why this surprises me. )

He's an established, award winning journalist in Venezuela. Yes, he's publishing on Twitter.

ETA: Here's a French newspaper seemingly conforming (https://www.france24.com/en/20190131-five-foreign-journalists-arrested-venezuela) although at the time that was published the number was only 5. Appears there's a sweep.
If you cite mainstream sources then they claim it is all propaganda and if you cite alternative sources then they claim that they can't be verified.
The only sources that can be trusted are the communists.:rolleyes:

juleswin

01-31-2019, 01:45 PM

If you cite mainstream sources then they claim it is all propaganda and if you cite alternative sources then they claim that they can't be verified.
The only sources that can be trusted are the communists.:rolleyes:

Hmm, the twitter platform that already verified the Manchurian President is alternative news source. Hmm, something doesn't jive here. I don't have to tell you but twitter, fedbook are all platforms of the establishment.

Anyone else remember the alternative 6 yr old voice in Aleppo tweeting in perfect English about the crimes of the evil Assad? Is that what u now call alternative news source?

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 01:48 PM

Hmm, the twitter platform that already verified the Manchurian President is alternative news source. Hmm, something doesn't jive here. I don't have to tell you but twitter, fedbook are all platforms of the establishment.

Anyone else remember the alternative 6 yr old voice in Aleppo tweeting in perfect English about the crimes of the evil Assad? Is that what u now call alternative news source?
The point is that your sources are no more trustworthy and yet you demand that they be taken as gospel.

Neither side is telling 100% truth and neither side is telling 100% lies.

Brian4Liberty

01-31-2019, 02:28 PM

Yes, things work until they stop working. For how long have we been hearing that Cuba is going to collapse. You guys know Cuba right? just about the only communism country left in the world(atleast as communism as you can get). Not just that it is suffering under a communist govt, it has also suffered decades of sanctions and blockade by the most powerful country ever existed and it still hasn't collapsed.

A brilliant scientist once said

So the fact that reality has shown you that collapse is not inevitable should give you pause to reassess your theory. Collapse is not inevitable when humans are concerned. Humans have trived in less that ideal conditions, they have trived in areas with little food, little water, extreme heat/cold, disease infested and so on. To think a mere govt cage will break this streak is laughable.

Depends on your definition of collapse. And I did say it would collapse economically into a totalitarian kleptocracy, which is exactly what happened to Cuba. A small communist dictatorship can last quite a while especially when it periodically eliminates it’s poor, criminals, mentally ill and dissenters.

Are you trying to say that Cuba is an economic powerhouse? A paradise? Cuba is collapsed. Your socialism and communism fails time and time again. That is reality. Your experiment has failed. Totalitarianism is not proof that a different, hypothetical system works.

And we are talking about modern nations. A small, agrarian village or nation that somewhat shares in a communal fashion is not what is being discussed.

A family is a small communal unit. That doesn’t mean or prove that state socialism or communism works.

RonZeplin

01-31-2019, 02:40 PM

Che Donnell, Sunshine, Chairman Jimmiah.

http://i.imgur.com/g6J0hdC.jpg

Brian4Liberty

01-31-2019, 02:44 PM

I'm sure there's some but the hysteria about communism looks a bit too much like the 50's.

LOL
Communism never went away and now it is coming back out of the closet:

Democratic Socialists Openly Calling For Communism (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?523839-Democratic-Socialists-Openly-Calling-For-Communism/page2)

That’s it. It’s a real danger right here, right now.

The Russia hysteria is being pushed by the same Trotskyites that were doing it in the 50s, but ironically this time they are the ones pushing socialism, and are now accusing Russia of just being “bad”.

specsaregood

01-31-2019, 02:48 PM

Guaido is also a socialist. For me, this is more about the humanitarian crisis than it is some pretense that this is a liberty movement.

For me its about not letting all the commies that voting in their communist government come to this country and help further ruin it the same way.

PAF

01-31-2019, 04:22 PM

For me its about not letting all the commies that voting in their communist government come to this country and help further ruin it the same way.

Serious question. What’s the difference in this house of cards? Do you think by not letting them in will turn this government around, reduce taxes drastically and restore all of our freedoms?

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 04:29 PM

Serious question. What’s the difference in this house of cards? Do you think by not letting them in will turn this government around, reduce taxes drastically and restore all of our freedoms?
We might or we might just stop them from increasing taxes and taking more of our freedoms.

Even if you think progress can only be made after a collapse or a revolution we can't allow the invasion or we will be outnumbered and the collapse or revolution will result in a communist regime.

PAF

01-31-2019, 04:42 PM

We might or we might just stop them from increasing taxes and taking more of our freedoms.

Even if you think progress can only be made after a collapse or a revolution we can't allow the invasion or we will be outnumbered and the collapse or revolution will result in a communist regime.

Outnumbered? Perhaps you didn’t get the gist of my post.

This government never shrinks, it only grows. Even when conservatives hold the office there is always a “crisis” that demands more government intervention. Socialism among peasants is a cancer. But it’s nothing like the malignant growth of this government.

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 04:49 PM

Outnumbered? Perhaps you didn’t get the gist of my post.

This government never shrinks, it only grows. Even when conservatives hold the office there is always a “crisis” that demands more government intervention. Socialism among peasants is a cancer. But it’s nothing like the malignant growth of this government.
You didn't get the gist of my post, if the invasion is allowed to continue unchecked then if a collapse or revolution occurs things will only get worse, we won't even have a fighting chance to start over with a small government because the native communists combined with the barbarians they imported will overwhelm us through sheer numbers, we are already at a disadvantage numerically as it is.

PAF

01-31-2019, 05:04 PM

You didn't get the gist of my post, if the invasion is allowed to continue unchecked then if a collapse or revolution occurs things will only get worse, we won't even have a fighting chance to start over with a small government because the native communists combined with the barbarians they imported will overwhelm us through sheer numbers, we are already at a disadvantage numerically as it is.

Thinking long term, Iran, North Korea and Cuba. Would stopping others from entering our country foil the ultimate goal? Do you believe our government will stop those from coming in will do it for the right reason?

How about USMCA/NAU? If it somehow becomes the “agreement”, what difference would it make if people overstayed or went back home?

I have this put-together puzzle in my head but it’s challenging to explain without a whiteboard. Unless I write a thesis which I have no time atm.

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 05:12 PM

Thinking long term, Iran, North Korea and Cuba. Would stopping others from entering our country foil the ultimate goal?
If you mean the goal of those who wish to enslave us the it will help foil that goal

Do you believe our government will stop those from coming in will do it for the right reason?
The government's reason isn't important, it is simply the policy that will give us the best chance to preserve and restore liberty.
That is why the government is fighting tooth an nail to resist it.

How about USMCA/NAU? If it somehow becomes the “agreement”, what difference would it make if people overstayed or went back home?
That is a different problem that we must fight but it helps to fight that problem if we limit immigration that is designed to merge our cultures.

I have this put-together puzzle in my head but it’s challenging to explain without a whiteboard. Unless I write a thesis which I have no time atm.

It is not that complex, more immigrants who believe in communism and "No borders, No wall, No USA at all" will cause us to be conquered by communism and merged into the NAU.

PAF

01-31-2019, 05:20 PM

If you mean the goal of those who wish to enslave us the it will help foil that goal

The government's reason isn't important, it is simply the policy that will give us the best chance to preserve and restore liberty.
That is why the government is fighting tooth an nail to resist it.

That is a different problem that we must fight but it helps to fight that problem if we limit immigration that is designed to merge our cultures.

It is not that complex, more immigrants who believe in communism and "No borders, No wall, No USA at all" will cause us to be conquered by communism and merged into the NAU.

Instead of a thesis I will find some time to pull out the crayons for you. Perhaps this deserves a thread of its own, let’s pick this up later.

PS: you just admitted endorsement for the wall.

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 05:25 PM

Instead of a thesis I will find some time to pull out the crayons for you. Perhaps this deserves a thread of its own, let’s pick this up later.

PS: you just admitted endorsement for the wall.
Where did I endorse the wall?

PAF

01-31-2019, 05:27 PM

Where did I endorse the wall?

Prior post.

No wall, No USA at all

I’ll get the crayons ready, and a pot of coffee ;-)

Swordsmyth

01-31-2019, 05:31 PM

Prior post.

No wall, No USA at all

That is what the caravans chanted, just because they don't want a wall and I want borders and a USA to exist doesn't mean I endorse the wall

I’ll get the crayons ready, and a pot of coffee ;-)
Crayons suit your mentality, but I think you are too childish for coffee.