As Democrats Reunite With Neocons, Their Voters Are Becoming Far More Pro-War Than Republicans

[Swordsmyth]

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP’S December 18 announcement that he intends to withdraw all U.S. troops from Syria produced some isolated support in the anti-war wings (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2018/12/22/trump-was-right-pull-out-syria-afghanistan-this-is-what-he-should-do-next/?utm_term=.9de900fbb161) of both (https://twitter.com/tedlieu/status/1075609295167913984) parties (https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1075785677726498816), but largely provoked bipartisan outrage among in Washington’s reflexively pro-war establishment.
Both GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/19/lindsey-graham-trump-if-isis-comes-back-after-troops-leave-syria.html), one of the country’s most reliable war supporters, and Hillary Clinton (https://twitter.com/hillaryclinton/status/1076128583419088896?lang=en), who repeatedly criticized former President Barack Obama for insufficient hawkishness, condemned Trump’s decision in very similar terms, invoking standard war on terror jargon.
But while official Washington united in opposition, new polling data (https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000168-2f50-db11-ab7d-3ff974f40000) from Morning Consult/Politico shows that a large plurality of Americans support Trump’s Syria withdrawal announcement: 49 percent support to 33 percent opposition.
That’s not surprising given that Americans by a similarly large plurality agree with the proposition that “the U.S. has been engaged in too many military conflicts in places such as Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan for too long and should prioritize getting Americans out of harm’s way” far more than they agree with the pro-war view that “the U.S. needs to keep troops in places such as Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan to help support our allies fight terrorism and maintain our foreign policy interests in the region.”
https://zh-prod-1cc738ca-7d3b-4a72-b792-20bd8d8fa069.storage.googleapis.com/s3fs-public/inline-images/gg1.jpg
But what is remarkable about the new polling data on Syria is that the vast bulk of support for keeping troops there comes from Democratic Party voters, while Republicans and independents overwhelming favor their removal. The numbers are stark: Of people who voted for Clinton in 2016, only 26 percent support withdrawing troops from Syria, while 59 percent oppose it. Trump voters overwhelmingly support withdraw by 76 percent to 14 percent.
A similar gap is seen among those who voted Democrat in the 2018 midterm elections (28 percent support withdrawal while 54 percent oppose it), as opposed to the widespread support for withdrawal among 2018 GOP voters: 74 percent to 18 percent.
https://zh-prod-1cc738ca-7d3b-4a72-b792-20bd8d8fa069.storage.googleapis.com/s3fs-public/inline-images/gg2.jpg
Identical trends can be seen on the question of Trump’s announced intention to withdraw half of the U.S. troops currently in Afghanistan, where Democrats are far more supportive of keeping troops there than Republicans and independents.
This case is even more stark since Obama ran in 2008 on a pledge to end the war in Afghanistan and bring all troops home. Throughout the Obama years, polling data consistently showed (http://www.people-press.org/2011/06/21/record-number-favors-removing-u-s-troops-from-afghanistan/) that huge majorities of Democrats favored a withdrawal of all troops from Afghanistan:
https://zh-prod-1cc738ca-7d3b-4a72-b792-20bd8d8fa069.storage.googleapis.com/s3fs-public/inline-images/gg3.jpg
With Trump rather than Obama now advocating troop withdrawal from Afghanistan, all of this has changed. The new polling data shows far more support for troop withdrawal among Republicans and independents, while Democrats are now split or even opposed. Among 2016 Trump voters, there is massive support for withdrawal: 81 percent to 11 percent; Clinton voters, however, oppose the removal of troops from Afghanistan by a margin of 37 percent in favor and 47 percent opposed.
https://zh-prod-1cc738ca-7d3b-4a72-b792-20bd8d8fa069.storage.googleapis.com/s3fs-public/inline-images/gg4.jpghttps://zh-prod-1cc738ca-7d3b-4a72-b792-20bd8d8fa069.storage.googleapis.com/s3fs-public/inline-images/gg4_0.jpg
This latest poll is far from aberrational. As the Huffington Post’s Ariel Edwards-Levy documented early this week (https://www.huffpostbrasil.com/entry/americans-views-of-trump-are-shaping-their-opinions-on-syria_us_5c37aecce4b05cb31c40c927?ec_carp=68591935 21826747620), separate polling shows a similar reversal by Democrats on questions of war and militarism in the Trump era.
While Democrats were more or less evenly divided early last year on whether the U.S. should continue to intervene in Syria, all that changed once Trump announced his intention to withdraw, which provoked a huge surge in Democratic support for remaining. “Those who voted for Democrat Clinton now said by a 42-point margin that the U.S. had a responsibility to do something about the fighting in Syria involving ISIS,” Edwards-Levy wrote, “while Trump voters said by a 16-point margin that the nation had no such responsibility.” (Similar trends can be seen among GOP voters, whose support for intervention in Syria has steadily declined as Trump has moved away from his posture of the last two years — escalating bombings in both Syria and Iraq and killing far more civilians (https://theintercept.com/2017/03/26/trumps-war-on-terror-has-quickly-become-as-barbaric-and-savage-as-he-promised/), as he repeatedly vowed to do during the campaign — to his return to his other campaign pledge to remove troops from the region.)
This is, of course, not the first time that Democratic voters have wildly shifted their “beliefs” based on the party affiliation of the person occupying the Oval Office. The party’s base spent the Bush-Cheney years denouncing war on terror policies, such as assassinations, drones, and Guantánamo as moral atrocities and war crimes, only to suddenly support those policies (https://www.salon.com/2012/02/08/repulsive_progressive_hypocrisy/) once they became hallmarks of the Obama presidency (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poll-finds-broad-support-for-obamas-counterterrorism-policies/2012/02/07/gIQAFrSEyQ_story.html?utm_term=.b1df29176fd6).
But what’s happening here is far more insidious. A core ethos of the anti-Trump #Resistance has become militarism, jingoism, and neoconservatism. Trump is frequently attacked by Democrats using longstanding Cold War scripts wielded for decades against them by the far right: Trump is insufficiently belligerent with U.S. enemies; he’s willing to allow the Bad Countries to take over by bringing home U.S. soldiers; his efforts to establish less hostile relations with adversary countries is indicative of weakness or even treason.
At the same time, Democratic policy elites in Washington are once again formally aligning with neoconservatives (https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/01/02/return-of-the-neocons/), even to the point of creating joint foreign policy advocacy groups (https://theintercept.com/2017/07/17/with-new-d-c-policy-group-dems-continue-to-rehabilitate-and-unify-with-bush-era-neocons/) (a reunion that predated Trump (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/opinion/sunday/are-neocons-getting-ready-to-ally-with-hillary-clinton.html)). The leading Democratic Party think tank, the Center for American Progress, donated $200,000 to the neoconservative American Enterprise Institute (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/12/why-is-the-center-for-american-progress-betraying-the-left)and has multilevel alliances with warmongering institutions. By far the most influential liberal media outlet, MSNBC, is stuffed full of former Bush-Cheney officials, security state operatives, and agents (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/02/06/john-brennan-james-claper-michael-hayden-former-cia-media-216943), while even the liberal stars are notably hawkish (a decade ago, long before she went as far down the pro-war and Cold Warrior rabbit hole that she now occupies, Rachel Maddow heralded herself (https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/17/arts/television/17madd.html) as a “national security liberal” who was “all about counterterrorism”).
All of this has resulted in a new generation of Democrats, politically engaged for the first time as a result of fears over Trump, being inculcated with values of militarism and imperialism, trained to view once-discredited, war-loving neocons such as Bill Kristol, Max Boot, and David Frum, and former CIA and FBI leaders as noble experts and trusted voices of conscience. It’s inevitable that all of these trends would produce a party that is increasingly pro-war and militaristic, and polling data now leaves little doubt that this transformation — which will endure long after Trump is gone — is well under way.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-11/democratic-elites-reunite-neocons-partys-voters-are-becoming-far-more-militaristic


BRING THEM ALL HOME AND WIN 2020 IN A MASSIVE LANDSLIDE

[kahless]

Shows that we need to be working within both parties to effect change.

This is not the only issue either. If the Republican party is going to be made up of a bunch of spineless cowards that always acquiesce to the will of the Democratic party then we need to be working within both parties to effect change.

[oyarde]

Dems are always war mongers when the majority . You can take it to the bank .

[Swordsmyth]

Shows that we need to be working within both parties to effect change.

This is not the only issue either. If the Republican party is going to be made up of a bunch of spineless cowards that always acquiesce to the will of the Democratic party then we need to be working within both parties to effect change.
How can libertarians work within the Communist party?

[Swordsmyth]

Dems are always war mongers when the majority . You can take it to the bank .
And always more so than Republicans in the majority.

[oyarde]

The total fallacy that Dems represent the working people , the poor , minorities and are anti war is part of the deepest fabric of what is wrong with america . That party should have been dead and buried by now .

[Swordsmyth]

The total fallacy that Dems represent the working people , the poor , minorities and are anti war is part of the deepest fabric of what is wrong with america . That party should have been dead and buried by now .
You must spread some reputation around.............

[kahless]

How can libertarians work within the Communist party?

I think you have been here long enough to recognize it in some of the opposition here. Just follow their pattern. They pretend to be for limited government, Paul supporters, Libertarian or what have you on the right. They throw you a bone every now and then promoting or agreeing with a policy of the Pauls to make themselves look like supporters. However all other posts attack the Pauls or libertarian beliefs while attacking and demoralizing the most ardent of supporters.

[kahless]

The total fallacy that Dems represent the working people , the poor , minorities and are anti war is part of the deepest fabric of what is wrong with america . That party should have been dead and buried by now .

I am more angry with my fellow Americans being unable to recognize that obvious fact. It is not like there were allot of years between flip flops. How stupid can people be not to remember just a few years ago.

[Swordsmyth]

I think you have been here long enough to recognize it in some of the opposition here. Just follow their pattern. They pretend to be for limited government, Paul supporters, Libertarian or what have you on the right. They throw you a bone every now and then promoting or agreeing with a policy of the Pauls to make themselves look like supporters. However all other posts attack the Pauls or libertarian beliefs while attacking and demoralizing the most ardent of supporters.
It might work but I think that the Demoncrats run a tighter ideological ship cult.
I think we would be run out on a rail for deviating enough to make a difference.

[Swordsmyth]

I am more angry with my fellow Americans being unable to recognize that obvious fact. It is not like there were allot of years between flip flops. How stupid can people be not to remember just a few years ago.
The Whigs died and the Republicans were born, that should have happened to the Demoncrats long ago even if the new party was still leftist.

[kahless]

It might work but I think that the Demoncrats run a tighter ideological ship cult.
I think we would be run out on a rail for deviating enough to make a difference.

True, I was joking of course. Nothing I hate worse than dishonesty. I do not care if someone disagrees with me 100% but as long as they are true to their beliefs and honest about it I have more respect for them than any liar.

[Swordsmyth]

True, I was joking of course. Nothing I hate worse than dishonesty. I do not care if someone disagrees with me 100% but as long as they are true to their beliefs and honest about it I have more respect for them than any liar.
Now that's a Klingon talking, for a moment I thought you might be a Romulan or a Human.:D

[kahless]

Now that's a Klingon talking, for a moment I thought you might be a Romulan or a Human.:D

heh, I had picked that name and avatar in 2007 but did not give it a whole lot of thought at that time. I did not remember my handle when I posted that but I guess subconsciously the belief in honesty and honor I do have in common with the beliefs of the character. A trait substantially lacking in our politicians and something I really appreciated about the honesty of Ron Paul which is why I became a supporter.

[Champ]

They are the uniparty at the end of the day, good cop, bad cop routine, whatever you want to call it. Right now it's the Democrats turn to be the bad cop. That's all this is.

We shouldn't necessarily be striving to make each party better, they will work together at the direction of the deep state to do whatever is necessary to achieve the deep state's objectives, switching up the roles as needed, despite our best efforts. So we have to eventually end these political parties (and the idea of them, lest they come back in an alternate form), thereby ending the control by the deep state over supposedly free people, but that seems like a long ways off, although not nearly as far away as once thought. Yeah, the Repubs are a little better than the Dems, but they still both work for the same bosses.

In the meantime, carrying on as we have seems to be effective. We are making a mockery of the process right now, with or without Trump, and it will continue after he is gone. Both parties look like goons, hired mercenaries for more powerful entities. The msm is in constant desperation mode and on the run, and as soon as their trust by the people is depleted, the constant protection of the political parties and their false leaders will end as well.

I'm not saying things are going to be pretty, it's going to get ugly the closer we get to ending this, it already is ugly, so you know something is coming. It feels like the "union" will be shattered into many pieces when all is said and done and replaced with smaller more localized government. Good. As long as we keep going on this path we will eventually not have to worry about which side of the uniparty is going to be in power, it's just not going to matter anymore, because the illusion of needing them to operate government will end.

And I know this sounds overly optimistic, maybe it is. If you take a step back and look at where we were.. say.. 20 years ago and where we are now, you can see many of the ideas of liberty are more popular now moreso than at any point in many decades. Your average man and woman are seeing many of the things we were railing about 10-20 years ago. They are just seeing it now, so it takes a lot of time for the masses to wake up, so I can understand the frustration.

And I don't care how pessimistic you can be, Ron Paul won over a lot more people than he is given credit for, including Trump, including the narrative, including people from all nations. They may not be pure hearted libertarians, but they are thinking and acting more like us than they were years ago, wanting to be freed of their shackles. We're pushing ourselves out of this bubble of fear and terror that has enveloped the world and finally believing in the idea things can actually be better and we aren't screwed after all. Ending wars is popular right now, at least more popular then staying in war is, according to even the most recent msm deep state produced polling. Cracking down on government corruption is popular, regardless of political affiliation or belief. Questioning authority, government, the msm, etc is more popular now than it has been in a long time, and probably has accrued the greatest amount of distrust and distaste it has ever garnered since the modern television media was invented.

It's not going to happen overnight, but we're getting there. Until then.. don't forget why these political parties are ultimately here for. Use them cautiously the way Ron or Rand have wisely used them, but never forget they are not there to serve the best interest of the people.

[Swordsmyth]

They are the uniparty at the end of the day, good cop, bad cop routine, whatever you want to call it. Right now it's the Democrats turn to be the bad cop. That's all this is.

We shouldn't necessarily be striving to make each party better, they will work together at the direction of the deep state to do whatever is necessary to achieve the deep state's objectives, switching up the roles as needed, despite our best efforts. So we have to eventually end these political parties (and the idea of them, lest they come back in an alternate form), thereby ending the control by the deep state over supposedly free people, but that seems like a long ways off, although not nearly as far away as once thought. Yeah, the Repubs are a little better than the Dems, but they still both work for the same bosses.

In the meantime, carrying on as we have seems to be effective. We are making a mockery of the process right now, with or without Trump, and it will continue after he is gone. Both parties look like goons, hired mercenaries for more powerful entities. The msm is in constant desperation mode and on the run, and as soon as their trust by the people is depleted, the constant protection of the political parties and their false leaders will end as well.

I'm not saying things are going to be pretty, it's going to get ugly the closer we get to ending this, it already is ugly, so you know something is coming. It feels like the "union" will be shattered into many pieces when all is said and done and replaced with smaller more localized government. Good. As long as we keep going on this path we will eventually not have to worry about which side of the uniparty is going to be in power, it's just not going to matter anymore, because the illusion of needing them to operate government will end.

And I know this sounds overly optimistic, maybe it is. If you take a step back and look at where we were.. say.. 20 years ago and where we are now, you can see many of the ideas of liberty are more popular now moreso than at any point in many decades. Your average man and woman are seeing many of the things we were railing about 10-20 years ago. They are just seeing it now, so it takes a lot of time for the masses to wake up, so I can understand the frustration.

And I don't care how pessimistic you can be, Ron Paul won over a lot more people than he is given credit for, including Trump, including the narrative, including people from all nations. They may not be pure hearted libertarians, but they are thinking and acting more like us than they were years ago, wanting to be freed of their shackles. We're pushing ourselves out of this bubble of fear and terror that has enveloped the world and finally believing in the idea things can actually be better and we aren't screwed after all. Ending wars is popular right now, at least more popular then staying in war is, according to even the most recent msm deep state produced polling. Cracking down on government corruption is popular, regardless of political affiliation or belief. Questioning authority, government, the msm, etc is more popular now than it has been in a long time, and probably has accrued the greatest amount of distrust and distaste it has ever garnered since the modern television media was invented.

It's not going to happen overnight, but we're getting there. Until then.. don't forget why these political parties are ultimately here for. Use them cautiously the way Ron or Rand have wisely used them, but never forget they are not there to serve the best interest of the people.
+Rep

The only thing I would add is that our chances will be better if we concentrate our fire on the worse party that is moving away from us.
We need to not cut the other side any slack but moving our way should be rewarded.

[kahless]

They are the uniparty at the end of the day, good cop, bad cop routine, whatever you want to call it. Right now it's the Democrats turn to be the bad cop. That's all this is.

We shouldn't necessarily be striving to make each party better, they will work together at the direction of the deep state to do whatever is necessary to achieve the deep state's objectives, switching up the roles as needed, despite our best efforts. So we have to eventually end these political parties (and the idea of them, lest they come back in an alternate form), thereby ending the control by the deep state over supposedly free people, but that seems like a long ways off, although not nearly as far away as once thought. Yeah, the Repubs are a little better than the Dems, but they still both work for the same bosses.

In the meantime, carrying on as we have seems to be effective. We are making a mockery of the process right now, with or without Trump, and it will continue after he is gone. Both parties look like goons, hired mercenaries for more powerful entities. The msm is in constant desperation mode and on the run, and as soon as their trust by the people is depleted, the constant protection of the political parties and their false leaders will end as well.

I'm not saying things are going to be pretty, it's going to get ugly the closer we get to ending this, it already is ugly, so you know something is coming. It feels like the "union" will be shattered into many pieces when all is said and done and replaced with smaller more localized government. Good. As long as we keep going on this path we will eventually not have to worry about which side of the uniparty is going to be in power, it's just not going to matter anymore, because the illusion of needing them to operate government will end.

And I know this sounds overly optimistic, maybe it is. If you take a step back and look at where we were.. say.. 20 years ago and where we are now, you can see many of the ideas of liberty are more popular now moreso than at any point in many decades. Your average man and woman are seeing many of the things we were railing about 10-20 years ago. They are just seeing it now, so it takes a lot of time for the masses to wake up, so I can understand the frustration.

And I don't care how pessimistic you can be, Ron Paul won over a lot more people than he is given credit for, including Trump, including the narrative, including people from all nations. They may not be pure hearted libertarians, but they are thinking and acting more like us than they were years ago, wanting to be freed of their shackles. We're pushing ourselves out of this bubble of fear and terror that has enveloped the world and finally believing in the idea things can actually be better and we aren't screwed after all. Ending wars is popular right now, at least more popular then staying in war is, according to even the most recent msm deep state produced polling. Cracking down on government corruption is popular, regardless of political affiliation or belief. Questioning authority, government, the msm, etc is more popular now than it has been in a long time, and probably has accrued the greatest amount of distrust and distaste it has ever garnered since the modern television media was invented.

It's not going to happen overnight, but we're getting there. Until then.. don't forget why these political parties are ultimately here for. Use them cautiously the way Ron or Rand have wisely used them, but never forget they are not there to serve the best interest of the people.

Elimination of political parties? I like that idea. I suppose that would start with pushing legislation for electoral college members required to not be members of any political party. Not much of incentive for either party to push such legislation though.

[Swordsmyth]

Elimination political parties? I like that idea. I suppose that would start with pushing legislation for electoral college members required to not be members of any political party. Not much of incentive for either party to push such legislation though. Champuckett

The best way to eliminate parties is to make each candidate his own party.
We need to allow each candidate to earn multiple seats/votes.
Imagine if Dr. Ron had held as many House seats as all of his supporters combined would have earned him.


Why not give each Rep. multiple votes? (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?504767-Why-not-give-each-Rep-multiple-votes)

[Champ]

Elimination political parties? I like that idea. I suppose that would start with pushing legislation for electoral college members required to not be members of any political party. Not much of incentive for either party to push such legislation though.

Seems inevitable at this point. There are just too many skeletons in each parties respective closets at this point and more seems to be coming out nearly every single day. We literally found a "skeleton" in a closet of a top Dem donor just days ago. You can't make this stuff up.

I think good people have just about had enough and trust for politicians is at an all time low. And electing in new politicians never seems to help either. I'm not saying this is going to happen over night, but sooner than anticipated.

[RestorationOfLiberty]

How can libertarians work within the Communist party?


By physically removing them.

[RestorationOfLiberty]

I am more angry with my fellow Americans being unable to recognize that obvious fact. It is not like there were allot of years between flip flops. How stupid can people be not to remember just a few years ago.

Well when their base is made up of the useful idiots, imported welfare voters with an IQ just above room temp, kids that have been brain washed in gov run K-12 and then college, its little wonder why.

[Swordsmyth]

By physically removing them.
I hear helicopters are very useful in that endeavor.:D

[RestorationOfLiberty]

I hear helicopters are very useful in that endeavor.:D

Saint Pinochet agrees with you.

[Swordsmyth]

Saint Pinochet agrees with you.

https://pics.me.me/he-fuel-pays-for-itself-th-of-marxists-thrown-out-16186461.png

[RestorationOfLiberty]

https://pics.me.me/he-fuel-pays-for-itself-th-of-marxists-thrown-out-16186461.png


Giggty

[RestorationOfLiberty]

How can libertarians work within the Communist party?

By being the useful idiots they clearly are.

[Zippyjuan]

Dems are always war mongers when the majority . You can take it to the bank .

Like that Democrat George W. Bush. Both parties try to steal from the other one. Republicans were the war mongers and the fiscal conservatives. Now they don't care about the budget or debt.