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presence
12-20-2018, 08:45 PM
developing

The Latest: House approves wall funding as shutdown nears (https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2018/12/20/the-latest-trump-slams-gop-leaders-over-border-wall-money)
Live Updating-Boston.com

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SmJJl-DqlCY/U4RWmzZhaVI/AAAAAAAAARE/9nKtmsZRbXE/s1600/1989+Berlin+wall.jpg



"On November 9, 1989, as the Cold War began to thaw across Eastern Europe, the spokesman for East Berlin's Communist Party announced a change in his city's relations with the West. Starting at midnight that day, he said, citizens of the GDR were free to cross the country's borders."

Mr.NoSmile
12-20-2018, 08:53 PM
Well, yeah, but that probably won't go anywhere in the Senate.

Slave Mentality
12-20-2018, 09:06 PM
Fuck it. Make it a hundred zillion. I don’t even hear these fools trying to lie about fiscal responsibility anymore. Build it around the whole some bitchin country like a new CCC jobs program. I can imagine the freedom now.

Champ
12-20-2018, 11:36 PM
Good. So it isn't likely to pass the Senate, and then we can have this government "shutdown" which won't suddenly grind things to a halt, but will expose the fact that we don't need most of the government garbage that would be shut down. Make it permanent, don't come to an agreement to fund any of this nonsense again.

kpitcher
12-21-2018, 01:16 AM
I'm still waiting on Mexico to pay for it. The official plan calls for taking all remittances from US to Mexico, and tarrifs on Mexican goods. That's not Mexico paying for it...

https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/Pay_for_the_Wall.pdf

TheTexan
12-21-2018, 02:26 AM
Fuck it. Make it a hundred zillion. I don’t even hear these fools trying to lie about fiscal responsibility anymore. Build it around the whole some bitchin country like a new CCC jobs program. I can imagine the freedom now.

The wall will create so much freedom it will make your head spin

Schifference
12-21-2018, 05:43 AM
So in that meeting last week with Schumer and Pelosi in front of all the cameras when Trump said he had the votes in the house but needed some from Chuck in the senate and Pelosi kept saying you don't have the votes in the house she was wrong?

Schifference
12-21-2018, 05:46 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVgjpGPr6-A

PAF
12-21-2018, 06:54 AM
Swordsmyth Anti Federalist


$#@! it. Make it a hundred zillion. I don’t even hear these fools trying to lie about fiscal responsibility anymore. Build it around the whole some bitchin country like a new CCC jobs program. I can imagine the freedom now.


The wall will create so much freedom it will make your head spin

I feel rich and free already! When do we get started on the Canadian border and the Pacific and Atlantic oceans?

Schifference
12-21-2018, 07:08 AM
Swordsmyth Anti Federalist





I feel rich and free already! When do we get started on the Canadian border and the Pacific and Atlantic oceans?

I am not sure I understand your sentiment. Do you feel that If I owned property on the US/Mexico border, I could open my property for people to come and go at will from country to country?

oyarde
12-21-2018, 07:18 AM
So in that meeting last week with Schumer and Pelosi in front of all the cameras when Trump said he had the votes in the house but needed some from Chuck in the senate and Pelosi kept saying you don't have the votes in the house she was wrong?

Correct . Pelosi wrong .

Schifference
12-21-2018, 07:20 AM
Correct . Pelosi wrong .

In a liberal view would Pelosi being wrong mean that Trump was right?

PAF
12-21-2018, 07:22 AM
I am not sure I understand your sentiment. Do you feel that If I owned property on the US/Mexico border, I could open my property for people to come and go at will from country to country?

Likewise, I am not sure I understand your question, or concern.

Do you feel that if I own private property I should be told what or what not to do with it?

oyarde
12-21-2018, 07:22 AM
In a liberal view would Pelosi being wrong mean that Trump was right?

It means they have to wash his balls .

Schifference
12-21-2018, 07:29 AM
Likewise, I am not sure I understand your question, or concern.

Do you feel that if I own private property I should be told what or what not to do with it?

Get real. Do you own property? If you own an acre can you contact a drilling company or set up your own rig and drill for oil? Can you grow vegetables in your front lawn? Can you sell lemonade without first seeking a permit? This is not 1777. Your rights of property ownership were stolen or legislated away many years ago. Now you are simply leasing land with restrictions.

In several previous posts I argue that government should be funded by contributions.

Do you own property? I challenge you to defy your zoning laws and see what happens on a local level. Put your money and your perceived freedom where your mouth is.

PAF
12-21-2018, 07:40 AM
Get real. Do you own property? If you own an acre can you contact a drilling company or set up your own rig and drill for oil? Can you grow vegetables in your front lawn? Can you sell lemonade without first seeking a permit? This is not 1777. Your rights of property ownership were stolen or legislated away many years ago. Now you are simply leasing land with restrictions.

In several previous posts I argue that government should be funded by contributions.

Do you own property? I challenge you to defy your zoning laws and see what happens on a local level. Put your money and your perceived freedom where your mouth is.

Challenge already met. I have not had dog licenses for decades. I do not purchase burning permits. Building, wiring etc. permits, nope and nope. Deck, shed, etc. built better and cheaper without paying strangers for permission. You are clearly owned by others, and would not think to remove your own nuise. I don’t know where you live, city, suburbs, other, but around my parts my neighbors and I don’t buy into organized crime.

I have made posts such as this if you do a search.

Get real.

Schifference
12-21-2018, 07:44 AM
I am working on fixing up a property I own and have not acquired any permits. Need to access the liability.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtQTZ6IECi4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkwwGEnXbZY

PAF
12-21-2018, 07:56 AM
I am working on fixing up a property I own and have not acquired any permits. Need to access the liability.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtQTZ6IECi4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkwwGEnXbZY

Nice project, I wish you luck. You may want to weigh options, fix what’s currently there or take it all down and reuse the lumber. A planer/joiner can freshen up lumber quite nicely. Stay away from particle board and use plywood. YMMV, depending on available funds.

For wiring, use 12 gauge/20 amp all the way around. Code allows 14 gauge/15 amp for lighting, but with 20 you’ll experience less sag and will leave options open down the road, you never know if you’ll need an outlet up top. And, instead of buying 2 different size breakers you only have to keep one size around.

Just some friendly suggestions. Oh, and if you’re worried about “code”, 20 amp will far exceed it. Just make sure your service can handle the load. Nothing less than 200a should suffice for that project but only you know your needs.

I just glanced at the second vid, it looks like you are under way :-)

EBounding
12-21-2018, 07:58 AM
The wall will create so much freedom it will make your head spin

Have you donated to the libertarian border wall Gofundme project yet???

phill4paul
12-21-2018, 08:02 AM
Challenge already met. I have not had dog licenses for decades. I do not purchase burning permits. Building, wiring etc. permits, nope and nope. Deck, shed, etc. built better and cheaper without paying strangers for permission. You are clearly owned by others, and would not think to remove your own nuise. I don’t know where you live, city, suburbs, other, but around my parts my neighbors and I don’t buy into organized crime.

I have made posts such as this if you do a search.

Get real.

Do you pay Federal Income tax?

Schifference
12-21-2018, 08:10 AM
Nice project, I wish you luck. You may want to weigh options, fix what’s currently there or take it all down and reuse the lumber. A planer/joiner can freshen up lumber quite nicely. Stay away from particle board and use plywood. YMMV, depending on available funds.

For wiring, use 12 gauge/20 amp all the way around. Code allows 14 gauge/15 amp for lighting, but with 20 you’ll experience less sag and will leave options open down the road, you never know if you’ll need an outlet up top. And, instead of buying 2 different size breakers you only have to keep one size around.

Just some friendly suggestions. Oh, and if you’re worried about “code”, 20 amp will far exceed it. Just make sure your service can handle the load. Nothing less than 200a should suffice for that project but only you know your needs.

I just glanced at the second vid, it looks like you are under way :-)

Point is this is out in country. I would not attempt this anywhere near the city. I am not afraid of building codes or inspection. My fear would be the house would be condemned and I would not be able to enter it. Once all foundation and beams replaced would not care about inspector. There is a different mentality in the country. The inspector is happy someone is fixing up a dilapidated building where one day they can have increased tax revenue. In the obtrusive city, inspectors are more concerned with fees, fines, citations and making your life hell.

PAF
12-21-2018, 08:11 AM
Do you pay Federal Income tax?

Quit with the silly rhetorical questions. I know my limits as I weigh my financial risk. I pay them by force, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t exercise civil disobedience to live as free and independently as I can.

Wait, is this particular thread DTF or RPF? Lately I don’t know where I am on this board.

PAF
12-21-2018, 08:13 AM
Have you donated to the libertarian border wall Gofundme project yet???


Actually I am gofundingmyself. It is money best spent.

Schifference
12-21-2018, 08:19 AM
Quit with the silly rhetorical questions. I know my limits as I weigh my financial risk. I pay them by force, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t exercise civil disobedience to live as free and independently as I can.

Wait, is this particular thread DTF or RPF? Lately I don’t know where I am on this board.

I would venture to say if you owned a piece of property on the US border you would "know your limits" and would not be exercising civil disobedience by allowing people to criss cross countries.

PAF
12-21-2018, 08:20 AM
Point is this is out in country. I would not attempt this anywhere near the city. I am not afraid of building codes or inspection. My fear would be the house would be condemned and I would not be able to enter it. Once all foundation and beams replaced would not care about inspector. There is a different mentality in the country. The inspector is happy someone is fixing up a dilapidated building where one day they can have increased tax revenue. In the obtrusive city, inspectors are more concerned with fees, fines, citations and making your life hell.

With liberty comes responsibility, in that one should always weigh personal options/risk. No doubt we live in a mob rule society controlled by criminals. But the more people who exercise civil disobedience, the better the outcome for all. It is a mindset change that does take time. I initiated things like this years ago, now my neighbors are fully on board.

As to your other response, it is nobody’s business but mine what I do or don’t do on my property. We’ll just leave it at that.

Schifference
12-21-2018, 08:21 AM
Furthermore, I would say if you owned property on both sides of the border in Mexico and in USA you would probably not even be able to cross onto your own land at that juncture.

phill4paul
12-21-2018, 08:24 AM
Quit with the silly rhetorical questions. I know my limits as I weigh my financial risk. I pay them by force, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t exercise civil disobedience to live as free and independently as I can.

Wait, is this particular thread DTF or RPF? Lately I don’t know where I am on this board.

You have no libertarian cred then. Just another tax slave talking big. You own nothing including your wages and your schtick is 'freedom of travel.' SMDH.

PAF
12-21-2018, 08:37 AM
You have no libertarian cred then. Just another tax slave talking big. You own nothing including your wages and your schtick is 'freedom of travel.' SMDH.

I am a little taken back by the hostility on this board. Ideas, sharing experiences, seeking ways to achieve liberty, etc, seemed to have gone all out the window. Have I said or done anything that has harmed anybody?

presence
12-21-2018, 08:44 AM
Challenge already met.

[]

I don’t know where you live, city, suburbs, other, but around my parts my neighbors and I don’t buy into organized crime.


cheers to that :D

Schifference
12-21-2018, 08:47 AM
I am a little taken back by the hostility on this board. Ideas, sharing experiences, seeking ways to achieve liberty, etc, seemed to have gone all out the window. Have I said or done anything that has harmed anybody?

I just think you are being inconsistent. In one respect you speak of property rights and civil disobedience in the next you know what you can get away with. Which one is it? Maybe many here have come to grips that we don't live in the era of the founding fathers.

Do you pay property taxes? Why not protest on grounds of civil disobedience

PAF
12-21-2018, 09:00 AM
I just think you are being inconsistent. In one respect you speak of property rights and civil disobedience in the next you know what you can get away with. Which one is it? Maybe many here have come to grips that we don't live in the era of the founding fathers.

Do you pay property taxes? Why not protest on grounds of civil disobedience

Everybody’s circumstances and mileage may vary. I am not naive to that. Other area homes are tapped into public water, sewage, gas, I instead put in my own well, septic and geothermal. A couple of folks bought property in the area, and when I introduced myself to them I invited them over to look around. They also decided to go well and septic. We help each other within our means, borrow ladders and tools, have a few brews, carry lumber and supplies from the pickup trucks to where they need to go. We are pretty comfortable, and still discuss political issues from time to time.

Some of the folks here are under some impression that either you kiss governments ass 100% or live in a hole underground up on the moon. It is non-productive.

acptulsa
12-21-2018, 09:15 AM
So, is this what Trump was after? If this gets through the Senate, will we suddenly find that troops are staying in Syria and Afghanistan? Or will the Fed have to cut rates for that to happen?

presence
12-21-2018, 09:33 AM
I just think you are being inconsistent. In one respect you speak of property rights and civil disobedience in the next you know what you can get away with. Which one is it? Maybe many here have come to grips that we don't live in the era of the founding fathers.

Do you pay property taxes? Why not protest on grounds of civil disobedience

Chapter 4 Applied Counter Economics - SEK3
http://www.kopubco.com/pdf/An_Agorist_Primer_by_SEK3.pdf


trade risk for profit

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 11:26 AM
Quit with the silly rhetorical questions. I know my limits as I weigh my financial risk. I pay them by force, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t exercise civil disobedience to live as free and independently as I can.

Wait, is this particular thread DTF or RPF? Lately I don’t know where I am on this board.

Yet you scoff and mock others who are equally limited and picking what battles they can, because they don't measure up to your standard of fighting the man.

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 11:32 AM
Some of the folks here are under some impression that either you kiss governments ass 100% or live in a hole underground up on the moon. It is non-productive.

I'm not aware of anybody that fits that description.

I applaud you for successfully dodging what irksome rules and ridiculous fatwas that you can in your life.

I do the same in mine.

Phill does the same in his.

Getting back to the subject at hand, please address these two issues:

1 - Explain to me your plan to get a majority vote across the board to abolish the welfare state in toto thus reducing incentives for illegal immigration.

2 - Explain how this task (or how evading fatwas and rules) will be made easier by introducing tens of millions more of migrant hordes that overwhelmingly support larger and more intrusive government.

PAF
12-21-2018, 11:48 AM
Yet you scoff and mock others who are equally limited and picking what battles they can, because they don't measure up to your standard of fighting the man.

After one of our meetings last summer we moved next door to the ice cream shop. I am pretty sure I had 2 scoops of the Neapolitan.

An Iranian and Hispanic are part of our group, in fact they even campaigned for Ron Paul back in ‘12. The group of 15 or so of us were eating our ice-cream talking about activism efforts and the Bill of Rights printouts that I had made. A car pulled into the parking lot, a mother and 3 kids. Waiting in line to get her ice-cream, she heard us talking about the Bill of Rights. And then she put her exposed top teeth over her bottom lip and flipped us the bird. Late 30’s-early 40’s, not quite sure, but she was in fact a red-head and didn’t seem to have any kind of an accent.

I did not respond, because freedom and liberty come from within, and those who do not understand that probably never will. I do not expend energy unless it is productive, or fun.

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 11:51 AM
I am a little taken back by the hostility on this board. Ideas, sharing experiences, seeking ways to achieve liberty, etc, seemed to have gone all out the window. Have I said or done anything that has harmed anybody?

Why?

You come in with snark, smart ass remarks, and an attitude of "I've got it all figured out and all the rest of you are poseurs and punks who wouldn't know liberty if you fell over it".

What kind of response did you think you would get?

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 11:54 AM
After one of our meetings last summer we moved next door to the ice cream shop. I am pretty sure I had 2 scoops of the Neapolitan.

An Iranian and Hispanic are part of our group, in fact they even campaigned for Ron Paul back in ‘12. The group of 15 or so of us were eating our ice-cream talking about activism efforts and the Bill of Rights printouts that I had made. A car pulled into the parking lot, a mother and 3 kids. Waiting in line to get her ice-cream, she heard us talking about the Bill of Rights. And then she put her exposed top teeth over her bottom lip and flipped us the bird. Late 30’s-early 40’s, not quite sure, but she was in fact a red-head and didn’t seem to have any kind of an accent.

I did not respond, because freedom and liberty come from within, and those who do not understand that probably never will. I do not expend energy unless it is productive, or fun.

I am not telling what to do, it is your right to do what you want as long as it does no harm to others. But a simple suggestion to change your name because “Anti Federalist” does not match your views.

So, you're telling me you have no plan then?

About what I figured...moving on.

Zippyjuan
12-21-2018, 11:59 AM
So, is this what Trump was after? If this gets through the Senate, will we suddenly find that troops are staying in Syria and Afghanistan? Or will the Fed have to cut rates for that to happen?

Senate has passed one without the $5 billion. That is now in the House. Short term funding through February 8th. Trump threatening to shut down "for a long time". Senate needs 50 votes to start debate and 60 votes to end debate on the $5 billion package. Many members in the House already heading home for the holidays.

PAF
12-21-2018, 12:00 PM
So, you're telling me you have no plan then?

About what I figured...moving on.

Look, Anti Federalist, you denounced our efforts contacting many representatives across this nation in pushing back TPP. Anything that I say or do will not be good enough for you.

Short of revolution, there are ways to push back, even slightly, hoping that over time freedom will become more popular.

There is NO easy answer or way out of this. But you can coordinate your area and help others do the same so that perhaps we could ground-swell our representatives more so now than in the past.

TheTexan
12-21-2018, 12:06 PM
Getting back to the subject at hand, please address these two issues:

1 - Explain to me your plan to get a majority vote across the board to abolish the welfare state in toto thus reducing incentives for illegal immigration.

2 - Explain how this task (or how evading fatwas and rules) will be made easier by introducing tens of millions more of migrant hordes that overwhelmingly support larger and more intrusive government.

Thanks AF for getting this thread back to the important issue at hand: voting.

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 12:08 PM
Look, Anti Federalist, you denounced our efforts contacting many representatives across this nation in pushing back TPP. Anything that I say or do will not be good enough for you.

I did?

You are going to have to pull up the quote for that, I want to see that, because I was/am vigorously opposed to TPP, I can recall at no time making any negative comments about people doing whatever they could to stop it.


Short of revolution, there are ways to push back, even slightly, hoping that over time freedom will become more popular.

There is NO easy answer or way out of this. But you can coordinate your area and help others do the same so that perhaps we could ground-swell our representatives more so now than in the past.

OK, fair enough.

What makes you think I am not already doing that?

So here's the problem, the border invasion is now, we do not have twenty or thirty years to gently persuade people into abolishing the welfare state, (assuming we could be successful at that, god knows Ron wasn't) especially when the millions of invaders overwhelming support larger and more intrusive government.

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 12:09 PM
Thanks AF for getting this thread back to the important issue at hand: voting.

Well, damn it, folks are not voting hard enough.

PAF
12-21-2018, 12:11 PM
Thanks AF for getting this thread back to the important issue at hand: voting.

I whole-heartedly agree with that. Voting does not work. Anybody involved in the ‘12 campaign understands this.

However even if one does not vote (me being one of them) reps can be contacted, 1 call represents 100. If enough activists are on the same page and do this across the country, we may be able to push back to some degree.

I hope I have canceled out AF’s calls (if he did) opposing that stupid wall.

PAF
12-21-2018, 12:22 PM
I did?

You are going to have to pull up the quote for that, I want to see that, because I was/am vigorously opposed to TPP, I can recall at no time making any negative comments about people doing whatever they could to stop it.



OK, fair enough.

What makes you think I am not already doing that?

So here's the problem, the border invasion is now, we do not have twenty or thirty years to gently persuade people into abolishing the welfare state, (assuming we could be successful at that, god knows Ron wasn't) especially when the millions of invaders overwhelming support larger and more intrusive government.


Seriously, AF, other than this manufactured crisis as of recent to instigate walls and biometrics, the numbers are not so much different than in prior years. If we can maintain a level head, as liberty rises, maybe we can extend the time out. Contact and work with YAL chapters, Young Republicans, Rotary Clubs, etc in your area.

That wall will do nothing other than cost us freedom and money. Instead of falling under pressure, maintain a liberty-minded perspective and keep forging ahead.

I know we bicker from time to time but I know deep down you are trying your best. Hopefully we can work together and try to reduce the size of government, not grow it.

Later tonight I am going down to get some Lebanese food that I haven’t had for a while. The married couple who own the restaurant are authentic, and it is mighty tasty :-)

specsaregood
12-21-2018, 12:22 PM
I whole-heartedly agree with that. Voting does not work. Anybody involved in the ‘12 campaign understands this.


If trump really does manage to end these wars and bring troops home, then you wont' be able to say voting does not work any longer, as he only got there because of voting and the other candidates in the primary sure as hell wouldn't have done it.

TheTexan
12-21-2018, 12:24 PM
However even if one does not vote (me being one of them) reps can be contacted, 1 call represents 100. If enough activists are on the same page and do this across the country, we may be able to push back to some degree.

I think if we did that together with a massive sign waving campaign we could really make a difference. Perhaps even start a few petitions, to really get their attention.

PAF
12-21-2018, 12:29 PM
If trump really does manage to end these wars and bring troops home, then you wont' be able to say voting does not work any longer, as he only got there because of voting and the other candidates in the primary sure as hell wouldn't have done it.

What positive trump may or may not have is in spite of voting. He was pre-selected ahead of time.

I was directly involved in the ‘12 campaign, all the way to RNC Convention. Individual voter fraud is a side-tracking joke compared to what happens at the organized level. It was the most corrupt process I have ever witnessed in my life.

PAF
12-21-2018, 12:32 PM
I think if we did that together with a massive sign waving campaign we could really make a difference. Perhaps even start a few petitions, to really get their attention.


And big red balloons! :-)

Of course, joking aside, signs and voting are not what works. This system is designed pertaing to delegates and reps. Not popular votes. But there is no denying that that process is corrupt.

TheTexan
12-21-2018, 12:42 PM
And big red balloons! :-)

Of course, joking aside, signs and voting are not what works. This system is designed pertaing to delegates and reps. Not popular votes.

The US is a representative democracy, but it's still a democracy, e.g. rule by majority.


But there is no denying that that process is corrupt.

I disagree, democracy seems to be working as intended to me.

PAF
12-21-2018, 12:53 PM
The US is a representative democracy, but it's still a democracy, e.g. rule by majority.



I disagree, democracy seems to be working as intended to me.

Yes and no, another conundrum, indeed. I only know what I experienced in ‘12. Every one of my RP delegates at the congressional district level won by landslide, there was no dispute. I oversaw the precinct and CD levels. It was higher up at the state level up to nat convention that was ‘compromised’.

angelatc
12-21-2018, 12:58 PM
Look, Anti Federalist, you denounced our efforts contacting many representatives across this nation in pushing back TPP.
.

Wait, wot?

TheTexan
12-21-2018, 12:58 PM
Yes and no, another conundrum, indeed. I only know what I experienced in ‘12. Every one of my RP delegates at the congressional district level won by landslide, there was no dispute. I oversaw the precinct and CD levels. It was higher up at the state level up to nat convention that was ‘compromised’.

Makes sense. The process is designed to keep wacky/fringe elements out of national politics.

PAF
12-21-2018, 01:00 PM
Makes sense. The process is designed to keep wacky/fringe elements out of national politics.

Xactly lol. Though I’ve been called worse ;-)

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 01:27 PM
Wait, wot?

Yah, I'm gonna have to see a quote of that.

PAF
12-21-2018, 01:35 PM
Yah, I'm gonna have to see a quote of that.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?528632-Mexico-US-closes-border/page3&p=6712851#post6712851

dannno
12-21-2018, 02:12 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?528632-Mexico-US-closes-border/page3&p=6712851#post6712851

You seem to be confused..

devil21
12-21-2018, 02:24 PM
You seem to be confused..

Not to speak for PAF but I think he/she means that everyone gives the politician all the credit instead of viewing the politician as a mere vessel for the coordinated efforts of a lot of people. IOW, Trump just signed something, it was a crap ton of people that forced his hand to do it. Put the credit where it belongs. Not the politician.

Ender
12-21-2018, 02:38 PM
Seriously, AF, other than this manufactured crisis as of recent to instigate walls and biometrics, the numbers are not so much different than in prior years. If we can maintain a level head, as liberty rises, maybe we can extend the time out. Contact and work with YAL chapters, Young Republicans, Rotary Clubs, etc in your area.

That wall will do nothing other than cost us freedom and money. Instead of falling under pressure, maintain a liberty-minded perspective and keep forging ahead.

I know we bicker from time to time but I know deep down you are trying your best. Hopefully we can work together and try to reduce the size of government, not grow it.

Later tonight I am going down to get some Lebanese food that I haven’t had for a while. The married couple who own the restaurant are authentic, and it is mighty tasty :-)

Pretty much how I see this mess.

AND Anti Federalist is one of my fav members here; always upfront & honest about his POV.

phill4paul
12-21-2018, 02:46 PM
I am a little taken back by the hostility on this board. Ideas, sharing experiences, seeking ways to achieve liberty, etc, seemed to have gone all out the window. Have I said or done anything that has harmed anybody?

Talking smack without a workable plan and being a big phony to boot? Just go on with your bad self. :rolleyes:

Swordsmyth
12-21-2018, 02:51 PM
Pretty much how I see this mess.

AND @Anti Federalist (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=3169) is one of my fav members here; always upfront & honest about his POV.



Seriously, AF, other than this manufactured crisis as of recent to instigate walls and biometrics, the numbers are not so much different than in prior years. If we can maintain a level head, as liberty rises, maybe we can extend the time out. Contact and work with YAL chapters, Young Republicans, Rotary Clubs, etc in your area.

That wall will do nothing other than cost us freedom and money. Instead of falling under pressure, maintain a liberty-minded perspective and keep forging ahead.

I know we bicker from time to time but I know deep down you are trying your best. Hopefully we can work together and try to reduce the size of government, not grow it.

Later tonight I am going down to get some Lebanese food that I haven’t had for a while. The married couple who own the restaurant are authentic, and it is mighty tasty :-)
There are 20+ Million invaders in the country already and they have already shifted our politics towards more big government, more come every year and the globalist openly declare their intent to flood us with 100s of millions more, living in denial isn't freedom.

devil21
12-21-2018, 02:59 PM
There are 20+ Million invaders in the country already and they have already shifted our politics towards more big government, more come every year and the globalist openly declare their intent to flood us with 100s of millions more, living in denial isn't freedom.

You just love falling for the Hegelian Dialectic, don't ya? The same people that engineered the "invasion" are the same ones offering you the solutions.

PAF
12-21-2018, 02:59 PM
There are 20+ Million invaders in the country already and they have already shifted our politics towards more big government, more come every year and the globalist openly declare their intent to flood us with 100s of millions more, living in denial isn't freedom.

I recall “R” house and senate having very low scores. The majority of them. Good ‘ol USofA politicians, in fact. I’d sooner start with them.

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 03:01 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?528632-Mexico-US-closes-border/page3&p=6712851#post6712851

You said:


Look, Anti Federalist, you denounced our efforts contacting many representatives across this nation in pushing back TPP. Anything that I say or do will not be good enough for you.

I asked for a quote of that and you replied with a link to the post in question.

Here is a full and complete copy of the post:


???

It was Trump that removed the US signature from the TPP, thus killing any chance of ratification.

On 23 January 2017, US President Donald Trump signed a presidential memorandum to withdraw the United States' signature from the agreement, making its ratification as it was in February 2016 virtually impossible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership)

Where in that post am I "denouncing" anybody?

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 03:09 PM
You just love falling for the Hegelian Dialectic, don't ya? The same people that engineered the "invasion" are the same ones offering you the solutions.

This is demonstrably false.

The ruling class's solutions are more immigration, amnesty, DACA, HB1s and Dreamers.

Really closing the border and putting a ten year hold on all immigration is anathema to them, and they actively fight against it at every turn.

Swordsmyth
12-21-2018, 03:14 PM
You just love falling for the Hegelian Dialectic, don't ya? The same people that engineered the "invasion" are the same ones offering you the solutions.
They did set the pieces on the board and there was nothing I could do to stop it that I didn't do, now I must try to win the game with the pieces as they are.

Let me know if you are ready to kick over the table and I might join you.

Swordsmyth
12-21-2018, 03:17 PM
I recall “R” house and senate having very low scores. The majority of them. Good ‘ol USofA politicians, in fact. I’d sooner start with them.
The "D" politicians have worse scores, and if you let millions more invaders in you will get ever more of them.

Your "solutions" lead to a communist dictatorship that will happen very quickly and be much harder to overthrow.

devil21
12-21-2018, 03:27 PM
This is demonstrably false.

The ruling class's solutions are more immigration, amnesty, DACA, HB1s and Dreamers.

Really closing the border and and putting a ten year hold on all immigration is anathema to them, and they actively fight against it at every turn.

Uhh, look around. Putting up a wall now is utterly pointless. Closing the barn door 10 years after the horse escaped. So instead, build a wall that prevents people from leaving and locks everyone in with the people they are now calling the "invaders"? That's the solution? Lock yourself in with the people you don't want here? Seems like a very dumb solution to a problem that got way out of hand a long time ago, which was created by the same folks that are offering the wall as a solution now (Trump was a Dem his whole life until a couple years before he ran for Pres...documented fact).

I don't personally see a physical wall being built because very high powers on this planet do not want that but it's threads like these that prove to me that people will sell themselves down the river over fear of some outside enemy.

What's the famous quote about controlling people via external threats (boogeymen) whether real or imagined. +rep to anyone that can provide the quote.

PAF
12-21-2018, 03:37 PM
The "D" politicians have worse scores, and if you let millions more invaders in you will get ever more of them.

Your "solutions" lead to a communist dictatorship that will happen very quickly and be much harder to overthrow.

“Republicans” had the house and senate, and the prez. Curious “R” won, even with all the immigrants.

They had a chance to vote “conservatively” and with the Constitution.

But they did not.

So, building that wall that the globalists have convinced you to do is going to magically make all of the “R’s” vote the way they were elected to do.

Prior to this “crisis”, Reagan, as prez, had a chance to eliminate the FedDeptEd. As did both bush’s. And now trump.

Nope, we still have it.

It was bush and his globalist agenda who shoved tsa, ndaa, etc down our throats. I do not remember blaming “immigrants” for that.

So the common denominator becomes, it doesn’t matter who is “elected” to office. They will do whatever it takes to have domination over the people, certainly when republicans continuously allow it to happen. And they welcome your efforts to string a nuise over your own neck because yes - it grows government and their stranglehold on you.

“D’s“ have their enormous issues too, don’t get me wrong. But it was the R party who had control and did everything against the common people.

Swordsmyth
12-21-2018, 03:44 PM
“Republicans” had the house and senate, and the prez. Curious “R” won, even with all the immigrants.

They had a chance to vote “conservatively” and with the Constitution.

But they did not.

So, building that wall that the globalists have convinced you to do is going to magically make all of the “R’s” vote the way they were elected to do.

Prior to this “crisis”, Reagan, as prez, had a chance to eliminate the FedDeptEd. As did both bush’s. And now trump.

Nope, still have it.

It was bush and his globalist agenda who shoved tsa, ndaa, etc down our throats. I do not remember blaming “immigrants” for that.

So the common denominator becomes, it doesn’t matter who is “elected” to office. They will do whatever it takes to have domination over the people, certainly when republicans continuously allow it to happen. And they welcome your efforts to string a noise over your own neck because yes -it grows government and their stranglehold on you.

“D’s“ have their enormous issues too, don’t get me wrong. But it was the R party who had control and did everything against the common people.
You can't cure one broken leg by amputating the other leg.

If you are bleeding out from an artery and you have an infected wound on your forearm you must stop the bleeding first.

Millions of communist invaders will make any solution harder, even if you want to start a revolution or vote for all the worst candidates in order to bring on a collapse you will be much more likely to bring on a communist regime if you let millions of communists in first.

We are facing an uphill battle and you want us to let the enemy build fortifications at the top of the hill by allowing his supplies through our lines.

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 03:44 PM
Uhh, look around. Putting up a wall now is utterly pointless. Closing the barn door 10 years after the horse escaped. So instead, build a wall that prevents people from leaving and locks everyone in with the people they are now calling the "invaders"? That's the solution? Lock yourself in with the people you don't want here? Seems like a very dumb solution to a problem that got way out of hand a long time ago, which was created by the same folks that are offering the wall as a solution now (Trump was a Dem his whole life until a couple years before he ran for Pres...documented fact).

I don't personally see a physical wall being built because very high powers on this planet do not want that but it's threads like these that prove to me that people will sell themselves down the river over fear of some outside enemy.

What's the famous quote about controlling people via external threats (boogeymen) whether real or imagined. +rep to anyone that can provide the quote.

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary.” ― H.L. Mencken

But here's the thing: nobody in the ruling class is raising alarms about this.

Almost universally the "official" position on this is: Everything is Fine, All is Well, Move along Now.

Swordsmyth
12-21-2018, 03:45 PM
Uhh, look around. Putting up a wall now is utterly pointless. Closing the barn door 10 years after the horse escaped. So instead, build a wall that prevents people from leaving and locks everyone in with the people they are now calling the "invaders"? That's the solution? Lock yourself in with the people you don't want here? Seems like a very dumb solution to a problem that got way out of hand a long time ago, which was created by the same folks that are offering the wall as a solution now (Trump was a Dem his whole life until a couple years before he ran for Pres...documented fact).

I don't personally see a physical wall being built because very high powers on this planet do not want that but it's threads like these that prove to me that people will sell themselves down the river over fear of some outside enemy.

What's the famous quote about controlling people via external threats (boogeymen) whether real or imagined. +rep to anyone that can provide the quote.
The invaders will be allowed to leave if they want and allowing their numbers to grow ever larger will only make our odds change from slim to none.

nikcers
12-21-2018, 03:55 PM
This better be greater than China's wall, we can't let them beat us at anything.

TheTexan
12-21-2018, 04:29 PM
This better be greater than China's wall, we can't let them beat us at anything.

It needs to be at least 4 times as big I think.

nikcers
12-21-2018, 04:32 PM
It needs to be at least 4 times as big I think.

It should be made of stone, lots of stuff made of stone has lasted thousands of years. Name it and engrave it with the names of all of our military veterans, the people who keep us safe should be aknowledged.

TheTexan
12-21-2018, 04:35 PM
Uhh, look around. Putting up a wall now is utterly pointless.

It's not pointless. If we let the illegals take control, they might raise our taxes to 47% instead of 46%.

We can't just allow that to happen OK.

angelatc
12-21-2018, 04:40 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?528632-Mexico-US-closes-border/page3&p=6712851#post6712851

Still not seeing it.

Swordsmyth
12-21-2018, 04:59 PM
It's not pointless. If we let the illegals take control, they might raise our taxes to 47% instead of 46%.

We can't just allow that to happen OK.
How does 90% grab you?

PAF
12-21-2018, 05:05 PM
”Liberty” Bell

Security

Visitors must pass through a security screening area to visit the Liberty Bell Center. To maximize your visit to the park, and to minimize your security screening time, the park recommends that you bring only small bags, if necessary.

No weapons, pepper spray, or pocket knives are permitted into the building.


Statue of “Liberty”

Items that are surrendered will not be returned. If you are unsure about an item, please do not bring it. DO NOT leave items unattended at any time.

Prohibited items include, but are not limited to:

ALL weapons, including: firearms, any dangerous items, any "dual-use" items that could be dangerous. All of these items are strictly prohibited in the park and on the ferry system.

Unmanned aircraft systems (UAS), drones and other similar remote-controlled flying devices or vehicles.

LARGE packages. Suitcases, carry-on luggage and other large parcels will not be permitted on the ferry systems or at Liberty and Ellis Islands.

Face masks and/or costumes which are designed to conceal the identity of a person are prohibited.

A primary security screening, similar to airport security procedures, is located in Battery Park, New York City or Liberty State Park in Jersey City, New Jersey. All visitors boarding any Statue Cruises ferry to Liberty Island and/or Ellis Island must pass through a screening facility before boarding.

A secondary security screening, similar to airport security procedures, is required for those entering the monument with Crown or Pedestal reservations.

Those with reservations to the pedestal, the stone base that the Statue of Liberty sits on top of, must secure the following items in a locker:

ALL FOOD & ALL DRINKS (except water)
ALL BACKPACK-STYLE BAGS (including over-sized bags, drawstring bags and backpack purses)
Strollers
Tripods, non-folding umbrellas
Laptops, tablet keyboards
Pocket knives


Let’s build that Wall! Then, to distinguish between us and them, Biometric implants to make life convenient. TSA already announced control over domestic transportation.

Why liberty and freedom, when we can emulate Nazi Germany?

TheTexan
12-21-2018, 05:08 PM
How does 90% grab you?

At what % would this forum begin to suggest doing something besides voting, calling congressmen, and waving signs?

Just curious.

Occam's Banana
12-21-2018, 05:11 PM
2 - Explain how this task (or how evading fatwas and rules) will be made easier by introducing tens of millions more of migrant hordes that overwhelmingly support larger and more intrusive government.

Thanks AF for getting this thread back to the important issue at hand: voting.

Strictly speaking, AF didn't actually say anything about voting, although voting may be part of what he had in mind when he mentioned "support".

But even if "migrant hordes" never cast a single vote, it is not unreasonable to think that their mere presence will "support" (and be used to justify) the welfare state in various ways, making the problem of its abolishment even more intractable than it already is ...

Occam's Banana
12-21-2018, 05:11 PM
If trump really does manage to end these wars and bring troops home, then you wont' be able to say voting does not work any longer, as he only got there because of voting and the other candidates in the primary sure as hell wouldn't have done it.

That depends on what you mean by the idea that voting "works" ...

If you mean that voting is an effective agency in causing such things, then this is incorrect. I am delighted by Trump's decision to withdraw from Syria (and am nearly as delighted by the woeful wailings of the critics of that decision) - but his election caused that to happen no more than it caused Trump's other not-so-delightful shenanigans, such as the recent bump stock brouhaha.

But voting does (or can) "work" as a sort of windsock - it can indicate a change in the direction of the wind, but it cannot cause that change. Election outcomes are effects, not causes - namely, in the case of Trump's election, it was the effect of a long-in-the-making increase in antiestablishmentarianism and antiestablishment sentiment (of which Ron Paul's candidacies were a harbinger). Trump's election did not cause that, the establishment did - and if Trump had not been elected (indeed, even if he had not been a candidate), it would still exist. And this latter fact suggests another important way in which voting does not "work" - or in which it "works" counter-productively. Voting acts as a kind of "safety valve" for bleeding off the pressures of popular frustrations and discontent. There is a good reason why modern politicians have the hots for democracy and want to "export" it everywhere: it makes people (even - or especially - the antiestablishment ones) easier to channel. corral and manipulate en masse ...

Swordsmyth
12-21-2018, 05:18 PM
At what % would this forum begin to suggest doing something besides voting, calling congressmen, and waving signs?

Just curious.
At what point will the NSA be removed from the internet?

If you want to do anything that the NSA wouldn't approve of you will need to arrange it offline.

Swordsmyth
12-21-2018, 05:19 PM
”Liberty” Bell

Security

Visitors must pass through a security screening area to visit the Liberty Bell Center. To maximize your visit to the park, and to minimize your security screening time, the park recommends that you bring only small bags, if necessary.

No weapons, pepper spray, or pocket knives are permitted into the building.


Statue of “Liberty”

Items that are surrendered will not be returned. If you are unsure about an item, please do not bring it. DO NOT leave items unattended at any time.

Prohibited items include, but are not limited to:

ALL weapons, including: firearms, any dangerous items, any "dual-use" items that could be dangerous. All of these items are strictly prohibited in the park and on the ferry system.

Unmanned aircraft systems (UAS), drones and other similar remote-controlled flying devices or vehicles.

LARGE packages. Suitcases, carry-on luggage and other large parcels will not be permitted on the ferry systems or at Liberty and Ellis Islands.

Face masks and/or costumes which are designed to conceal the identity of a person are prohibited.

A primary security screening, similar to airport security procedures, is located in Battery Park, New York City or Liberty State Park in Jersey City, New Jersey. All visitors boarding any Statue Cruises ferry to Liberty Island and/or Ellis Island must pass through a screening facility before boarding.

A secondary security screening, similar to airport security procedures, is required for those entering the monument with Crown or Pedestal reservations.

Those with reservations to the pedestal, the stone base that the Statue of Liberty sits on top of, must secure the following items in a locker:

ALL FOOD & ALL DRINKS (except water)
ALL BACKPACK-STYLE BAGS (including over-sized bags, drawstring bags and backpack purses)
Strollers
Tripods, non-folding umbrellas
Laptops, tablet keyboards
Pocket knives


Let’s build that Wall! Then, to distinguish between us and them, Biometric implants to make life convenient. TSA already announced control over domestic transportation.

Why liberty and freedom, when we can emulate Nazi Germany?
It's too bad for you that none of us here agree with your strawman.

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 05:20 PM
Why liberty and freedom, when we can emulate Nazi Germany?

That's a got damned good question.

One I've been asking myself damn near every day for over 40 years.

Riddle me this: how is this situation improved by importing millions of people who are in favor of emulating Nazi Germany?

Or to be totally fair, in favor of the unlimited state that gave rise to Nazi Germany.

Swordsmyth
12-21-2018, 05:20 PM
Strictly speaking, AF didn't actually say anything about voting, although voting may be part of what he had in mind when he mentioned "support".

But even if "migrant hordes" never cast a single vote, it is not unreasonable to think that their mere presence will "support" (and be used to justify) the welfare state in various ways, making the problem of its abolishment even more intractable than it already is ...
They will also be used to defend it if we ever do have a revolution.

Anti Federalist
12-21-2018, 05:21 PM
Strictly speaking, AF didn't actually say anything about voting, although voting may be part of what he had in mind when he mentioned "support".

But even if "migrant hordes" never cast a single vote, it is not unreasonable to think that their mere presence will "support" (and be used to justify) the welfare state in various ways, making the problem of its abolishment even more intractable than it already is ...

Thank you, you read exactly what I was intending to convey.

TheTexan
12-21-2018, 05:25 PM
At what point will the NSA be removed from the internet?

If you want to do anything that the NSA wouldn't approve of you will need to arrange it offline.

In the meantime let's discuss whether or not we should vote Republican and whether or not to build 10-20 feet of stone on our border because both of those discussions are appropriately commensurate in scale to the level of attacks on our liberties.


Almost universally the "official" position on this is: Everything is Fine, All is Well

Apparently so.

PAF
12-21-2018, 05:37 PM
That's a got damned good question.

One I've been asking myself damn near every day for over 40 years.

Riddle me this: how is this situation improved by importing millions of people who are in favor of emulating Nazi Germany?

Or to be totally fair, in favor of the unlimited state that gave rise to Nazi Germany.

See me last post here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?529409-215-000-Raised-for-Border-Wall-in-One-Day-via-GoFundMe&p=6723681#post6723681

presence
12-22-2018, 07:57 AM
I applaud you for successfully dodging what irksome rules and ridiculous fatwas that you can in your life.

this is all kinds of win

:D

PAF
12-22-2018, 08:36 AM
“Private Property” is different than public land. I advocate fences around private property, but not public land.

Growing government, and assisting to grow government, to build East/West Berlin Walls, promoting Eminent Domain which affects Private Property rights, restricting contract rights between employer/employee, are all anti freedom/liberty solutions. Which is what this manufactured crisis is attempting to do.

The better course of action would be to save your money, promote economic freedom zones to create/expand businesses to employ more people, and allow the Free Market to work things out.

Americans in Section 8 will not take those border jobs. This combined with “forced unionization” that is the USMCA (NAFTA 2.0) will ultimately drive costs up, affecting and further whittling the middle-class, as well as drive lower income people further into the ground.

I am still amazed that people/government always feel that “we must do something”, when every time it only makes thing worse.

Looking for government to solve government induced problems ALWAYS reduces freedom, liberty and fiscal responsibility.

Haste makes waste, I am saddened that things are not thought through.

Anti Federalist
12-22-2018, 11:52 AM
I posted this in another thread but it belongs here as well:

“Private Property” is different than public land. I advocate fences around private property, but not public land.

I'm all for it.

Use the GoFundMe money to pay rent to private landowners to erect the border wall on their property.

At the same time, have the CinC call up the "Unorganized Militia" to man it, under Article 10 Sec 246 of the United States Code (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246).

Anti Globalist
12-22-2018, 12:27 PM
Doubt it will go anywhere in the Senate.

Zippyjuan
12-24-2018, 03:15 PM
Latest from Trump: The shutdown will pay for the wall. Also- he already has enough money for it- doesn't need any more. So why the shutdown to get more money?

1077250139503452162

Swordsmyth
12-24-2018, 05:41 PM
The Department of Agriculture has about $200 billion in outstanding loans (http://www.caes.uga.edu/news-events/news/story.html?storyid=5637&story=USDA%20Grant) for rural development projects such as community buildings, bridges, roads, fire stations, police stations, water projects and barriers such as fencing and walls. These federal loans to local communities have low default rates that are attractive to private-sector investors because they represent large, reliable cash flows — the kind of investments that big money funds desperately desire.

About $50-100 billion worth currently held by USDA are very marketable and attractive commercial paper investments. The rights to collect the remainder of the debt on these loans could be sold to private parties who would pay a premium for such a steady stream of cash payments. The sales would give a profit cushion to the government and alleviate taxpayers from any future risk of nonpayment while retaining certain borrower guarantees.
For example, Trump could authorize the sale of $10 billion of USDA rural water loans on the secondary market, which could bring in a lump sum payment of $12 billion or more. Revenue from these proceeds could be directed to build the border wall.
Legal authority comes from many angles. Obama stimulus loans (approximately $2-$5 billion) could be separated out and used because they involved “no year” money, meaning the funds don’t expire if not spent in a certain time frame. The president could tap into USDA’s Community Facilities Program (https://www.rd.usda.gov/programs-services/all-programs/community-facilities-programs)s money if recouped funds from the sale were used for new loans to cooperating communities on the border, such as in Texas.


Another option would be to utilize funds in the same way USDA undertakes in-kind swaps with private parties to the tune of hundreds of millions (https://www.fsa.usda.gov/Assets/USDA-FSA-Public/usdafiles/AboutFSA/CCC/ccc_fact_sheet.pdf)of dollars worth of commodities and services. This would entail swapping the proceeds of the commercial paper sales for the wall, with construction companies being the counterparties.
These are only a few creative funding avenues that could be explored, some less complicated than others. Such an aggressive approach is a sure way for Trump to regain the initiative and get the attention of lawmakers who have an interest in killing any threat to their control over spending, thus giving the president leverage in negotiations as pressure mounts to end the shutdown.

Minus an 11th-hour deal in the Senate, the only way a border wall will get built is if the president uses executive power to do it. He has the funds available and the authority to build the wall on his own. The only question is whether President Trump will finally start taking advice from those who actually support his goals rather than continuing to trust the internal obstructionists.

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/donald-trump-fund-border-wall-081508770.html

Swordsmyth
12-24-2018, 05:44 PM
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1077329121745793025

1077329121745793025

TheTexan
12-24-2018, 05:53 PM
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1077329121745793025

1077329121745793025

Billions of lives will be saved :cool:

r3volution 3.0
12-24-2018, 06:01 PM
Notice how Trump's demand for more for spending on the wall is getting all the attention.

No one is even thinking about all the other, delicious, vote-buying spending that will undoubtedly be included in the eventual compromise.

I guess paying off the national debt (lol (https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/275003-trump-i-will-eliminate-us-debt-in-8-years)) will have to wait till, uh, later...

Swordsmyth
12-24-2018, 06:03 PM
Notice how Trump's demand for more for spending on the wall is getting all the attention.

No one is even thinking about all the other, delicious, vote-buying spending that will undoubtedly be included in the eventual compromise.

I guess paying off the national debt (lol (https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/275003-trump-i-will-eliminate-us-debt-in-8-years)) will have to wait till, uh, later...
I notice that you are ignoring the ending of the wars that cost so much.

PAF
12-24-2018, 06:30 PM
I notice that you are ignoring the ending of the wars that cost so much.

Nobody is disputing that pulling out is a huge positive, and I hope that this trend continues.

I have lived long enough to see multitudes of “bones” thrown. It is what keeps the system plugging away. Every politician for thousands years have done it and this time is no different.

Is this legit and the trend continues? Is the MIC merely intending to reposition? Will this garner support for the great and mighty CIC so that he will appear innocent and therefore justified for another maneuver?

Only time will tell, but this is certain; I will never trust government, certainly not politicians, and I will never waiver from my principles.

Zippyjuan
12-24-2018, 08:37 PM
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1077329121745793025

1077329121745793025

Guess he doesn't need that bill to be passed by Congress to fund his wall- the shutdown can be ended. (Actually the contract was $145 million to rebuild a six mile stretch of wall in Texas- not 115 miles of new wall).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/border-wall-texas-contractor-slsco-wins-145-million-contract-for-6-mile-wall-rio-grande-valley/


Texas contractor wins $145 million contract to build border wall in Rio Grande Valley

Federal authorities have awarded a $145 million contract to a Texas company to build 6 miles of wall along the U.S.-Mexico border in the Rio Grande Valley. U.S. Customs and Border Patrol said Friday that SLSCO will begin construction of an 18-foot reinforced concrete levee wall in February in the agency's McAllen Station region. The company will also increase the height of existing fences.

It will be the first section of President Trump's border barriers in the Rio Grande Valley, the busiest corridor for illegal crossings.

The government recently completed construction of a 2-mile, 30-foot tall section of fencing along the border in California.



At that rate per mile, he will need $2.7 billion to cover 115 miles. But don't worry- that money will come from "shutdown" funds. Or Mexico.

Zippyjuan
12-24-2018, 08:47 PM
Notice how Trump's demand for more for spending on the wall is getting all the attention.

No one is even thinking about all the other, delicious, vote-buying spending that will undoubtedly be included in the eventual compromise.

I guess paying off the national debt (lol (https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/275003-trump-i-will-eliminate-us-debt-in-8-years)) will have to wait till, uh, later...

Tariffs are going to pay off that debt- didn't you see his tweet?

Schifference
12-24-2018, 08:49 PM
Trump should just fund the wall from the petty cash account.

Swordsmyth
12-24-2018, 08:51 PM
Guess he doesn't need that bill to be passed by Congress to fund his wall- the shutdown can be ended. (Actually the contract was $145 million to rebuild a six mile stretch of wall in Texas- not 115 miles of new wall).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/border-wall-texas-contractor-slsco-wins-145-million-contract-for-6-mile-wall-rio-grande-valley/



At that rate per mile, he will need $2.7 billion to cover 115 miles. But don't worry- that money will come from "shutdown" funds. Or Mexico.
How do you know that is the same contract?

Zippyjuan
12-24-2018, 08:57 PM
How do you know that is the same contract?

I can't find any source other than Trump claiming any contract. Government offices which would write and fund such a contract are all closed for the holidays. But he is sad and lonely and wants attention.

1077255770725601280

He has solved Korea again too.

1077311502615490560

He said in Texas so it wasn't this one which is to replace a 30 mile stretch in California.

https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/south-bay-news/contracts-awarded-for-president-trumps-border-wall-in-california


Contracts awarded for President Trump's border wall in California


SAN DIEGO (KGTV) — A Texas company has been awarded a contract to erect nearly 30 miles of fencing along California's border with Mexico.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection awarded $287 million in construction contracts to Texas-based construction company SLSCO. The contracts include up to 14 miles of secondary wall and up to 15 miles of primary pedestrian replacement wall in California within the San Diego, Yuma, and El Centro Sectors.

The 15-mile primary pedestrian replacement wall will include the installation of a new, 30-foot steel bollard wall: About 11 miles in Calexico, three miles in Tecate, and one mile in Andrade. According to CBP, these areas represent areas where wall replacement has been a priority. Construction for that $156 million project is slated to begin in July 2019.

The secondary wall project is a $131 million contract and will include up to 14 miles of the same 30-foot steel bollard wall adjacent to San Diego's primary fence replacement project that is currently under construction. Construction of that project is projected to begin February 2019.

SLSCO has already worked on border construction earlier this year, constructing new steel fencing in Border Field State Park .

The two projects are a part of President Trump's "Border Security and Immigration Enforcement Improvements" executive order, which calls for a contiguous wall to be built along the southern U.S. border with Mexico, according to CBP.

Swordsmyth
12-24-2018, 09:05 PM
I can't find any source other than Trump claiming any contract. Government offices which would write and fund such a contract are all closed for the holidays. But he is sad and lonely and wants attention.

1077255770725601280

He has solved Korea again too.

1077311502615490560

He said in Texas so it wasn't this one which is to replace a 30 mile stretch in California.

https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/south-bay-news/contracts-awarded-for-president-trumps-border-wall-in-california
So you are just talking through your hat.

r3volution 3.0
12-24-2018, 09:52 PM
To the construction cost of the boondoggle should be added the cost of reimbursing the landowners whose lands the feds will be stealing.

...course, to the relief of the robbers, it is the robbers themselves who get to choose by how much they'll reimburse their victims.

Swordsmyth
12-24-2018, 09:56 PM
To the construction cost of the boondoggle should be added the cost of reimbursing the landowners whose lands the feds will be stealing.

...course, to the relief of the robbers, it is the robbers themselves who get to choose by how much they'll reimburse their victims.
What if it results in a net gain for liberty?
Doesn't that justify any amount of theft and killing according to you? (Even when the right to self defense isn't involved as it clearly is here)

nbhadja
12-24-2018, 10:07 PM
Trump doesn't need congress to build the wall. He will use the military to build a complete wall (more than 5.7 billion, which is enough for a partial wall). He is just using this negotiation with the Dems to show everyone that the Dems are open border radicals who want to let the illegal invaders continue to pour through the border by the millions. Also he will say "I tried. I had no choice, but to use the military".

This article explains how Trump can build the wall without congress"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/12/24/donald-trump-shutdown-congress-approval-build-border-wall-spending-column/2402442002/

Swordsmyth
12-25-2018, 01:40 PM
U.S. President Donald Trump on Tuesday said the partial shutdown of the federal government was going to last until his demand for funds to build a wall on the U.S.-Mexico border is met.The U.S. government partially shut down on Saturday, and there is not yet any sign of tangible efforts to reopen agencies closed by a political impasse over Trump's demand for border wall funds.
"I can't tell you when the government is going to reopen," Trump said, speaking after a Christmas Day video conference with U.S. troops serving abroad. "I can tell you it's not going to reopen until we have a wall, a fence, whatever they'd like to call it. I'll call it whatever they want, but it's all the same thing. It's a barrier from people pouring into the country, from drugs."
He added: "If you don't have that (the wall), then we're just not opening."

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-partial-u-govt-shutdown-last-until-150257629--business.html

specsaregood
12-25-2018, 01:56 PM
U.S. President Donald Trump on Tuesday said the partial shutdown of the federal government was going to last until his demand for funds to build a wall on the U.S.-Mexico border is met.The U.S. government partially shut down on Saturday, and there is not yet any sign of tangible efforts to reopen agencies closed by a political impasse over Trump's demand for border wall funds.
"I can't tell you when the government is going to reopen," Trump said, speaking after a Christmas Day video conference with U.S. troops serving abroad. "I can tell you it's not going to reopen until we have a wall, a fence, whatever they'd like to call it. I'll call it whatever they want, but it's all the same thing. It's a barrier from people pouring into the country, from drugs."
He added: "If you don't have that (the wall), then we're just not opening."

More at: https://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-partial-u-govt-shutdown-last-until-150257629--business.html

Of course if congress had taken Ron Paul's advice and "earmarked every penny" of the spending then this would be more difficult for Trump to pull off. But without the earmarks, it is the executive branch that gets to decide how to spend the money.

Zippyjuan
12-25-2018, 04:58 PM
Latest: Wall will be three stories tall and finished (the entire US/ Mexico border) by Election Day.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trumps-christmas-message-to-democrats-government-shutdown-will-last-until-we-have-a-wall


“While we’re fighting over funding, we’re also building, and it’s my hope to have this done, completed, all 500 to 550 miles, to have it either renovated or brand new by Election Day,” he said.

(actually the border between the US and Mexico is about 2,000 miles long- not 500 miles).

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/nation/2018/12/25/trump-end-shutdown-wall-funded/38795695/


He also had said Mexico would pay for the wall. Mexico has refused.

Trump followed up on a Monday tweet in which he said he “just gave out a 115 mile long contract for another large section of the Wall in Texas.” Neither the White House nor the Department of Homeland Security responded to follow-up questions, despite repeated requests.

The reference to 115 miles was unclear. Trump may have been referring to 33 miles of construction in the Rio Grande Valley that is set to begin in February, part of a total of 84 miles that Congress funded in March, according to the Department of Homeland Security.

Asked who received the contract, Trump replied: “Different people, different people.”

He did say he envisions a wall so tall, “like a three-story building,” that only an Olympic champion would be able to scale it.

AZJoe
01-23-2019, 08:29 AM
A Tale of Two Walls (https://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/a-tale-of-two-walls/)

The demand of President Donald Trump that congress should appropriate money to build a wall securing the nation’s southern border has resulted in the longest federal government shutdown in history … The generally “progressive” view is that there is no border threat at all … The alternative viewpoint, which has a much broader bipartisan constituency, consists of those who do feel that border security is a national priority but are nevertheless critical of building a wall, which will be expensive … They prefer other options …

Democratic Presidents including Bill Clinton and Barack Obama when campaigning have called for better border security, as have Democratic Congressional leaders who are now smelling blood and attacking Trump for seeking to do what they have long at least theoretically sought. …

many of the Democrats who are currently criticizing the southern border wall on moral grounds have failed to apply the same standard to another infamous wall, that which is being built by Israel. Israel’s “separation wall” is arguably being constructed at least in part using “aid” and charitable money provided by Washington while also being enabled politically by the U.S. government’s acquiescence to the Israeli violations of international law. And if the moral argument for not having a wall to aid suffering refugees has any meaning, it would be many times more so applied to the Israeli wall, which is an instrument in the maintenance of apartheid in areas under Israeli control while also making permanent the stateless status of the more than one million Palestinian refugees …

The Israeli wall is at many points larger and more intimidating than that planned by Trump, and it is also designed to physically and economically devastate the Palestinian population adjacent to it. …

Israeli companies have apparently expressed interest in building the Mexico wall and, as one of the many perks Israel receives from congress includes the right to bid on U.S. government contracts, they might well wind up as a contractors or subcontractors …

As noted above, the principal difference between the U.S. wall and that of Israel is that the American version is all on U.S. land and is engineered to more or less run in a straight line along the border. The Israeli version is nearly 90% built on Palestinian land and, as it is designed to create facts on the West Bank, it does not run in a straight line, instead closing off some areas to the Palestinians by surrounding Arab villages. It therefore keeps people in while also keeping people out, so it is not strictly speaking a security barrier. …

If the Israeli wall had followed the Green Line that separated Israel proper from Palestinian land it would be only half the estimated 440 miles long that it will now be upon completion. The extra miles are accounted for by the deep cuts (https://web.archive.org/web/20160912193655/http:/www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_barrier_update_july_2011_english.pdf) of as much as 11 miles into the West Bank, isolating about 9% of it and completely enclosing 25,000 Palestinian Arabs from areas nominally controlled by the Palestinian Authority. One often cited victim (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3111159.stm) of the barrier is the Palestinian town of Qalqilyah, with a population of 45,000, which is enclosed on all sides by a wall that in some sections measures more than 25 feet high. Qalqilyah is only accessible through an Israeli controlled military checkpoint on the main road from the east and a tunnel on the south side that links the town to the adjacent village of Habla.

The wall is therefore only in part a security measure while also being a major element in the Israeli plan to gradually acquire as much of the West Bank as possible – perhaps all of it – for Israeli settlers. It is a form of collective punishment based on religion to make life difficult for local people and eventually drive them from their homes. …

A United Nations 2005 report (https://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/32943465E443DEFE8525700C0066B181) states that :
… it is difficult to overstate the humanitarian impact of the Barrier. The route inside the West Bank severs communities, people’s access to services, livelihoods and religious and cultural amenities. In addition, plans for the Barrier’s exact route and crossing points through it are often not fully revealed until days before construction commences. This has led to considerable anxiety amongst Palestinians about how their future lives will be impacted… The land between the Barrier and the Green Line constitutes some of the most fertile in the West Bank. It is currently the home for 49,400 West Bank Palestinians living in 38 villages and towns.”

Amnesty International in a 2004 report (https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/033/2004/en/) observed:
“… Since the summer of 2002 the Israeli army has been destroying large areas of Palestinian agricultural land, as well as other properties, to make way for a fence/wall which it is building in the West Bank. In addition to the large areas of particularly fertile Palestinian farmland that have been destroyed, other larger areas have been cut off from the rest of the West Bank by the fence/wall. The fence/wall is not being built between Israel and the Occupied Territories but mostly (close to 90%) inside the West Bank, turning Palestinian towns and villages into isolated enclaves, cutting off communities and families from each other, separating farmers from their land and Palestinians from their places of work, education and health care facilities and other essential services. This in order to facilitate passage between Israel and more than 50 illegal Israeli settlements located in the West Bank.” …

the situation has become far worse for Palestinians since the two reports … Israel has accelerated its settlement construction and the wall has expanded and shifted … making life impossible for the indigenous population.

Any pushback from the United States has been rare to nonexistent … The first direct criticism of the wall itself took place in 2003, when the Bush administration briefly considered reducing loan guarantees to discourage its construction. Then Secretary of State Colin Powell remarked (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier) “A nation is within its rights to put up a fence if it sees the need for one. However, in the case of the Israeli fence, we are concerned when the fence crosses over onto the land of others.” .On May 25, 2005, Bush repeated his concerns (https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030725-6.html), noting that “I think the wall is a problem. And I discussed this with Ariel Sharon. It is very difficult to develop confidence between the Palestinians and Israel with a wall snaking through the West Bank.” … it “should be a security rather than political barrier, should be temporary rather than permanent and therefore not prejudice any final status issues including final borders, and its route should take into account, consistent with security needs, its impact on Palestinians” …

Congress is, of course, Israeli occupied territory … Senator Joe Lieberman complained (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier) “The administration’s threat to cut aid to Israel unless it stops construction of a security fence is a heavy-handed tactic. The Israeli people have the right to defend themselves from terrorism, and a security fence may be necessary to achieve this.” …

Senator Hillary Clinton declared her support (https://web.archive.org/web/20071013145201/http:/haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=644798) for the wall … Senator Charles Schumer, also from New York, added (https://www.jweekly.com/2007/01/26/famed-attorney-lays-out-plan-for-peace/) … “Israel has no choice but to build the Security Wall.”

So, for many in Washington a legal and relatively apolitical wall by the United States to protect its border is a horrible prospect while the Israeli version built on someone else’s land with the intention to damage the local Arab population as much as possible is perfectly fine. … is completely hypocritical, … That is the reality and it is playing out in front of us right now.

AZJoe
01-23-2019, 01:58 PM
Democrats and GOP Join to Fully Fund Border Wall for Jordan (https://www.breitbart.com/immigration/2018/03/22/gop-democrats-fully-fund-border-wall-jordanians/)

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