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Zippyjuan
12-11-2018, 02:27 PM
Does this mean he no longer needs his $25 billion for the urgent project?

From Twitter:

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https://www.npr.org/2018/12/11/675425269/trump-to-meet-with-chuck-and-nancy-expectations-are-low


In Fight With 'Chuck And Nancy,' Trump Says He'd Be 'Proud' To Shut Down Government

In a testy Oval Office exchange with the two top congressional Democrats, Rep. Nancy Pelosi and Sen. Chuck Schumer, President Trump made clear he would be "proud" to shut down the government in less than two weeks if he doesn't get funding for his border wall.

"I'll be the one to shut it down. I will take the mantle. And I will shut it down for border security," Trump told House and Senate Democratic leaders as Vice President Pence sat by stoically.

The statement from Trump came in an extraordinary show before the cameras and the press, with minutes of tense back-and-forth with both Pelosi, the likely incoming House speaker, and Schumer, the Senate minority leader.

Democratic leaders have made it clear they don't intend to give the president a victory on funding for his signature border wall, and afterwards released a statement reiterating that, "We gave the president two options that would keep the government open. It's his choice to accept one of those options or shut the government down."

Speaking after the meeting, both Schumer and Pelosi thought they had emerged with the upper hand after seemingly baiting Trump into taking the blame if there's a partial shutdown just days before Christmas.

"This Trump shutdown, this temper tantrum he seems to want to throw, will not get him his wall," the Senate minority leader told reporters outside the White House.

Throughout the meeting, Trump kept insisting that much of the wall has already been built (numerous fact checkers earlier this year determined it hasn't, which Schumer pointed out) and he's also said that the military can build the rest. During the 2016 campaign, Trump kept claiming that Mexico would pay to build the wall, but he has since dropped that talking point.




A little more than a year ago, Trump had a couple of meetings with Schumer and Pelosi. He said he'd worked out a deal on immigration with "Chuck and Nancy," as he called them.

"I think something can happen," Trump told reporters. "We'll see what happens. But something will happen."

Nothing happened. The deal blew up without even an agreement on what the deal was.

If Trump does decide not to sign a bill which does not give him $5 billion (it used to be $25 billion he wanted), the only parts of government which would not be funded would be the Department of Homeland Security (responsible for that border he worries about) and the Justice Department (which can punish violators of that border) and the Department of State. Not the entire government- the rest has already been funded for the next year (October which is the end of the fiscal year). The funding bill will require support from at least ten Democrats in the Senate to pass plus a portion of House Democrats as well.

About 20 miles of the 2000 mile border was replaced (funding approved while Obama was president) but despite Trump claims, no new sections have been built. Unless you count the "prototypes" built in San Diego which were for demonstration only and not part of any actual wall.

Trump would probably be willing to accept anything so he can claim victory and declare his campaign promise fulfilled.

TheCount
12-11-2018, 02:39 PM
Welp, I guess he's going to sign that budget after all...

Anti Federalist
12-11-2018, 04:40 PM
And the invasion continues non stop.

Not that either of you guys care, you're in favor of it.

PAF
12-11-2018, 04:52 PM
And the invasion continues non stop.

Not that either of you guys care, you're in favor of it.

Quite the conundrum, isn’t it.

Sacrifice liberty for security... deserve neither.

A. Build a wall restricting human beings, leading to other police state tactics, at tremendous cost in dollars and freedom.

B. Let them in, to vote for the very same welfare your own government refuses to eliminate.

Either way it costs financially. Because government never ends welfare and steps out of the way to allow free markets to naturally fix the problems. They only compound problems ensuring their own jobs.

You support the very same increasing dependent state that you claim to oppose. By counting on government to “solve problems”, not by reducing government, but by increasing it.

Swordsmyth
12-11-2018, 04:57 PM
Quite the conundrum, isn’t it.

Sacrifice liberty for security... deserve neither.

A. Build a wall restricting human beings, leading to other police state tactics, at tremendous cost in dollars and freedom.

B. Let them in, to vote for the very same welfare your own government refuses to eliminate.

Either way it costs financially. Because government never ends welfare and steps out of the way to allow free markets to naturally fix the problems. They only compound problems ensuring their own jobs.

You support the very same increasing dependent state that you claim to oppose. By counting on government to “solve problems”, not by reducing government, but by increasing it.

And you support it by supporting the invasion that it has caused and enabled in order to take total control.

Some government is necessary in order to secure liberty and border/immigration control is one of the most necessary parts of that.

TheCount
12-11-2018, 05:28 PM
And the invasion continues non stop.

Not that either of you guys care, you're in favor of it.
What flavor is that Kool aid?

PAF
12-11-2018, 05:29 PM
And you support it by supporting the invasion that it has caused and enabled in order to take total control.

Some government is necessary in order to secure liberty and border/immigration control is one of the most necessary parts of that.

I found some free jigsaw puzzles to get you started. Good luck!

https://www.thejigsawpuzzles.com

TheCount
12-12-2018, 04:34 AM
1072547218593329153

Slave Mentality
12-12-2018, 05:49 AM
I have questions for the wall people:

Where have you been the past 40 years begging Uncle Sugar to enforce existing laws to prevent corporations bringing in these folks and paying them pennies on the dollar for labor...state sponsored corporate welfare ignored by all? I watched whole towns be displaced and not a word. Millions are here because the people you vote for want them here.

Do you not understand that a 100’ tall slave-funded wall will only create a true free market for 101’ tall ladders? Tax slaves are always on the wrong side of these equations, as well as personal liberty.

I share your frustrations with the perception of being overrun (even though numbers are lower now than years ago when you were silent) but am a bit disappointed in some on here for going right for the red meat that has been used for generations to whip up dangerous nationalism - which is just back door full blown statism.

No welfare and no jobs. Problem solved. Everything else is a distraction away from the real fucking criminals, which a damned wall just makes more of.

You don’t have to be a an unreasonable idealistic purist in order to be consistent in what you do and don’t want from this government. A wall is not a beacon for liberty no matter how you want to spin it. The mere presence of one suggests otherwise.

I don’t have the answers, but I can’t help but think the wall discussion is just a way of gaining conscent to continue building walls around our own minds. These fuckers are desperate to hold onto the perception of power. Never forget that. We should be shopping for yellow vests....

Slave Mentality
12-12-2018, 05:58 AM
Also See:

Tunnels, how do they work? 🙂

Schifference
12-12-2018, 06:07 AM
I have questions for the wall people:

Where have you been the past 40 years begging Uncle Sugar to enforce existing laws to prevent corporations bringing in these folks and paying them pennies on the dollar for labor...state sponsored corporate welfare ignored by all? I watched whole towns be displaced and not a word. Millions are here because the people you vote for want them here.

Do you not understand that a 100’ tall slave-funded wall will only create a true free market for 101’ tall ladders? Tax slaves are always on the wrong side of these equations, as well as personal liberty.

I share your frustrations with the perception of being overrun (even though numbers are lower now than years ago when you were silent) but am a bit disappointed in some on here for going right for the red meat that has been used for generations to whip up dangerous nationalism - which is just back door full blown statism.

No welfare and no jobs. Problem solved. Everything else is a distraction away from the real $#@!ing criminals, which a damned wall just makes more of.

You don’t have to be a an unreasonable idealistic purist in order to be consistent in what you do and don’t want from this government. A wall is not a beacon for liberty no matter how you want to spin it. The mere presence of one suggests otherwise.

I don’t have the answers, but I can’t help but think the wall discussion is just a way of gaining conscent to continue building walls around our own minds. These $#@!ers are desperate to hold onto the perception of power. Never forget that. We should be shopping for yellow vests....

If dogs keep coming onto your property and shit everywhere you step, would you build a fence?

If you own a large spread, would you want the pigs shitting by the main door to your home?

Some say that private home owners should protect their property and have every right to do so. Who owns the US? Who has a right to protect the USA from trespassers?

Grandmastersexsay
12-12-2018, 07:02 AM
The military builds missile silos, bases, and naval yards on our own soil. I see no problem with them building a wall for our national defense.

CaptUSA
12-12-2018, 07:03 AM
If dogs keep coming onto your property and shit everywhere you step, would you build a fence?

If you own a large spread, would you want the pigs shitting by the main door to your home?

Some say that private home owners should protect their property and have every right to do so. Who owns the US? Who has a right to protect the USA from trespassers?

The first thing I'd do is stop throwing out treats for the dogs (welfare state), and stop watering the mud holes for the pigs (drug war).

And the private property argument is ludicrous. Shouldn't private property owners have the right to decide who works for them or who they sell their property to? Should the government tell them they can't hire, rent or sell to certain people??

Look, PAF had it right with his 2 options:
1. Grow government to keep them out - leads to less liberty.
2. Let them in to eventually vote for bigger government - leads to less liberty.

It's pointless to watch you all debate which is the better option since the results are exactly the same. Funny how the government set it up this way, eh?? It's great for division, fundraising and growth of government, but it will always reduce liberty.

There is a 3rd option, however. Understand that government created problems will never be solved with government solutions. The only principled stance is to reduce the government created incentives that drive the undesirable illegal immigration. That is the only option that leads to liberty. "Oh," but you say, "that's too hard"... Well, guess what? It's always easier to hang onto liberty than it is to get it back once you've lost it. So instead of advocating for greater losses of liberty that will "be too hard" to get back, how about we do the hard work now of getting back the liberty we've already lost?

At a minimum, we shouldn't be lending any credence to options 1 or 2!

Origanalist
12-12-2018, 08:10 AM
The first thing I'd do is stop throwing out treats for the dogs (welfare state), and stop watering the mud holes for the pigs (drug war).

And the private property argument is ludicrous. Shouldn't private property owners have the right to decide who works for them or who they sell their property to? Should the government tell them they can't hire, rent or sell to certain people??

Look, PAF had it right with his 2 options:
1. Grow government to keep them out - leads to less liberty.
2. Let them in to eventually vote for bigger government - leads to less liberty.

It's pointless to watch you all debate which is the better option since the results are exactly the same. Funny how the government set it up this way, eh?? It's great for division, fundraising and growth of government, but it will always reduce liberty.

There is a 3rd option, however. Understand that government created problems will never be solved with government solutions. The only principled stance is to reduce the government created incentives that drive the undesirable illegal immigration. That is the only option that leads to liberty. "Oh," but you say, "that's too hard"... Well, guess what? It's always easier to hang onto liberty than it is to get it back once you've lost it. So instead of advocating for greater losses of liberty that will "be too hard" to get back, how about we do the hard work now of getting back the liberty we've already lost?

At a minimum, we shouldn't be lending any credence to options 1 or 2!

I couldn't agree more.

juleswin
12-12-2018, 10:41 AM
Also See:

Tunnels, how do they work? ��


I have questions for the wall people:

Where have you been the past 40 years begging Uncle Sugar to enforce existing laws to prevent corporations bringing in these folks and paying them pennies on the dollar for labor...state sponsored corporate welfare ignored by all? I watched whole towns be displaced and not a word. Millions are here because the people you vote for want them here.

Do you not understand that a 100’ tall slave-funded wall will only create a true free market for 101’ tall ladders? Tax slaves are always on the wrong side of these equations, as well as personal liberty.

I share your frustrations with the perception of being overrun (even though numbers are lower now than years ago when you were silent) but am a bit disappointed in some on here for going right for the red meat that has been used for generations to whip up dangerous nationalism - which is just back door full blown statism.

No welfare and no jobs. Problem solved. Everything else is a distraction away from the real $#@!ing criminals, which a damned wall just makes more of.

You don’t have to be a an unreasonable idealistic purist in order to be consistent in what you do and don’t want from this government. A wall is not a beacon for liberty no matter how you want to spin it. The mere presence of one suggests otherwise.

I don’t have the answers, but I can’t help but think the wall discussion is just a way of gaining conscent to continue building walls around our own minds. These $#@!ers are desperate to hold onto the perception of power. Never forget that. We should be shopping for yellow vests....

And just because your umbrella doesn't keep your feet dry during the rain doesn't mean you should toss it. Speaking strictly on the efficiency of a border fence, it would make it significantly harder for immigrants to cross the border when its built. Does anyone really think a woman carrying a 4 year old can scale a 100" tall fence? and closing off a tunnel is 1000x more easier and cheaper than securing a 100 mile open border.

So say what you will about Trump, but his border wall would be a game changer for immigration and it doesn't help your credibility by trying to deny this fact.

Superfluous Man
12-12-2018, 10:54 AM
Remember how enthusiastically all the deplorables would yell, "Mexico!!!" at his campaign events every time he asked, "...and who's gonna pay for it?"

It was like the cheers at big college pep rallies. One would have almost thought that promise was important to them.

And where are they now demanding that that promise be kept and that no wall be built with American taxpayer money?

They are being led along like mindless lemmings who actually don't believe in anything at all except what their leader tells them to.

Superfluous Man
12-12-2018, 10:57 AM
Some say that private home owners should protect their property and have every right to do so. Who owns the US? Who has a right to protect the USA from trespassers?

It can't be both.

Either private property owners within this vast tax jurisdiction that you call "the US" own their own property and have every right to decide who gets to be on it, or their property is just a subset of this "US" which is owned by some other entity which gets to decide that and dictate it to them.

TheTexan
12-12-2018, 11:31 AM
But Mexicans tho

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 01:43 PM
It can't be both.

Either private property owners within this vast tax jurisdiction that you call "the US" own their own property and have every right to decide who gets to be on it, or their property is just a subset of this "US" which is owned by some other entity which gets to decide that and dictate it to them.

and property owners may lose some of their private property so the government can build its wall on it.

The wall will be free. You won't have to pay a penny for it. Mexico will. At least he has dropped that facade. Now he has dropped how much money he wants to spend. It was a matter of life and death that we get $25 billion for this wall. Now only $5 billion is enough. The goals are getting smaller. He will accept anything and declare victory and get his picture taken.

Maybe they should use crowdfunding. People who want a wall can donate whatever they want to to fund it. Perhaps this could be a new model for funding government programs.

Swordsmyth
12-12-2018, 02:52 PM
The Pentagon said Tuesday that there is no current plan for the military to build sections of the border wall, but suggested that the law would allow the Defense Department to fund doing so in some cases. “To date, there is no plan to build sections of the wall. However, Congress has provided options under Title 10 U.S. Code that could permit the Department of Defense to fund border barrier projects, such as in support of counter drug operations or national emergencies,” Pentagon spokesman Army Lt. Col. Jamie Davis said.

The Pentagon statement came after President Trump on Tuesday morning said the military could build remaining sections of a border wall.


More at: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/12/12/pentagon-border-barrier-military/

Origanalist
12-12-2018, 02:57 PM
And just because your umbrella doesn't keep your feet dry during the rain doesn't mean you should toss it. Speaking strictly on the efficiency of a border fence, it would make it significantly harder for immigrants to cross the border when its built. Does anyone really think a woman carrying a 4 year old can scale a 100" tall fence? and closing off a tunnel is 1000x more easier and cheaper than securing a 100 mile open border.

So say what you will about Trump, but his border wall would be a game changer for immigration and it doesn't help your credibility by trying to deny this fact.

Lol, you're concern trolling about credibility? This place sometimes, I swear. LOLOL

juleswin
12-12-2018, 03:07 PM
Lol, you're concern trolling about credibility? This place sometimes, I swear. LOLOL

I just think it is ludicrous and/or damaging to one's credibility to be arguing that building a wall can be easily overcome with a ladder or digging a tunnel. If that is what makes one a concern troll then I am guilty as charged, send the forum thought police after me :rolleyes:

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 03:28 PM
I just think it is ludicrous and/or damaging to one's credibility to be arguing that building a wall can be easily overcome with a ladder or digging a tunnel. If that is what makes one a concern troll then I am guilty as charged, send the forum thought police after me :rolleyes:

Half those in the country illegally didn't even sneak across the border. They entered legally and stayed after their visa expired (travel, student, work). Tunnels go under the wall. Trucks actually have driven over it. Boats go around it.

https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2012/10/31/1c1a78f7-a645-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/thumbnail/620x350/fe475f07f6b6802cb6920068c1ab7c3b/drug_smuggler_fail_AP59636474010_fullwidth.jpg

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/standard/ramp_truck-2.jpg

http://www.trbimg.com/img-5543d0a0/turbine/la-me-ln-mexico-tunnel-20150501

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1245211/images/o-BORDER-HOLES-facebook.jpg

Swordsmyth
12-12-2018, 03:31 PM
Half those in the country illegally didn't even sneak across the border. They entered legally and stayed after their visa expired (travel, student, work). Tunnels go under the wall. Trucks actually have driven over it. Boats go around it.

https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2012/10/31/1c1a78f7-a645-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/thumbnail/620x350/fe475f07f6b6802cb6920068c1ab7c3b/drug_smuggler_fail_AP59636474010_fullwidth.jpg

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/standard/ramp_truck-2.jpg

http://www.trbimg.com/img-5543d0a0/turbine/la-me-ln-mexico-tunnel-20150501

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1245211/images/o-BORDER-HOLES-facebook.jpg

All of which add extra cost and difficulty.

Slave Mentality
12-12-2018, 03:35 PM
So say what you will about Trump, but his border wall would be a game changer for immigration and it doesn't help your credibility by trying to deny this fact.


I don't give a shit what anyone rates my "credibility". I want liberty, not Uncle Sugar protecting me from the Bad Guys. Pretty simple really.

juleswin
12-12-2018, 03:37 PM
Half those in the country illegally didn't even sneak across the border. They entered legally and stayed after their visa expired (travel, student, work). Tunnels go under the wall. Trucks actually have driven over it. Boats go around it.

https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2012/10/31/1c1a78f7-a645-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/thumbnail/620x350/fe475f07f6b6802cb6920068c1ab7c3b/drug_smuggler_fail_AP59636474010_fullwidth.jpg

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/standard/ramp_truck-2.jpg

http://www.trbimg.com/img-5543d0a0/turbine/la-me-ln-mexico-tunnel-20150501

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1245211/images/o-BORDER-HOLES-facebook.jpg

I am not saying that a wall is 100% full proof, what I am saying is that a wall would make it significantly harder for immigrants to cross the border when compared to no wall at all. Showing me an elaborate and most likely expensive one time use contraption does not disprove my point. And I agree with you that may of the illegal immigrants in the country came in through legal means but that is not what the walls is being built for, so why talk about it here?

juleswin
12-12-2018, 03:45 PM
I don't give a $#@! what anyone rates my "credibility". I want liberty, not Uncle Sugar protecting me from the Bad Guys. Pretty simple really.

I want liberty too but continuing to make bad and easily debunkable arguments about the efficiency of a border wall doesn't your case. I am not crazy about a wall because I know that it works and just as it can be used to hold people from coming in, it can also be used from preventing people from leaving.

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 03:47 PM
I am not saying that a wall is 100% full proof, what I am saying is that a wall would make it significantly harder for immigrants to cross the border when compared to no wall at all. Showing me an elaborate and most likely expensive one time use contraption does not disprove my point. And I agree with you that may of the illegal immigrants in the country came in through legal means but that is not what the walls is being built for, so why talk about it here?

We already have walls and barriers at the most used crossing points. Is it worth it to build a wall where people are not crossing? Does it reduce those entering the country if we build a wall where there are no people? Sure you can wall off the entire country (why not the northern border? Why not a wall with China where most immigrants are now coming from?). The migrant caravans are going to established crossing points with walls and barriers.

juleswin
12-12-2018, 04:20 PM
We already have walls and barriers at the most used crossing points. Is it worth it to build a wall where people are not crossing? Does it reduce those entering the country if we build a wall where there are no people? Sure you can wall off the entire country (why not the northern border? Why not a wall with China where most immigrants are now coming from?). The migrant caravans are going to established crossing points with walls and barriers.

Are you tell me that we now have a wall in every single crossing point on the southern border and every body crossing now is scaling the fence, tunneling under or making a tear on the war to cross through it? if yes, then I agree with you, no new wall.

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 04:40 PM
Are you tell me that we now have a wall in every single crossing point on the southern border and every body crossing now is scaling the fence, tunneling under or making a tear on the war to cross through it? if yes, then I agree with you, no new wall.

That is silly. I already said that most are not even sneaking across the border. The point was that spending another $25 billion to build walls where people are not trying to cross the border will not reduce immigration. It was also to show that walls can be defeated. No bang for our taxpayer buck.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/ron-paul-on-trumps-border-wall-totally-useless


Ron Paul on Trump's Border Wall: Totally Useless

Former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) says President Trump's plan to build a wall along the country's Southern border a "totally useless" idea with low support in border states.

A new poll found that 61% of Texas citizens do not approve of building a wall along the border with Mexico to keep illegal immigrants out. "I’m glad that the poll shows that people in Texas don’t think much of this wall,” Paul told the FOX Business Network’s Maria Bartiromo.

"I’ve always argued that the walls are going to hinder the American people as much as anybody," Paul said. "If somebody has honestly earned money and they want to walk across the border, they become criminals, you know, they can’t do it because they have all these regulations.”

juleswin
12-12-2018, 04:52 PM
That is silly. I already said that most are not even sneaking across the border. The point was that spending another $25 billion to build walls where people are not trying to cross the border will not reduce immigration. It was also to show that walls can be defeated. No bang for our taxpayer buck.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/ron-paul-on-trumps-border-wall-totally-useless


Ron Paul on Trump's Border Wall: Totally Useless

Former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) says President Trump's plan to build a wall along the country's Southern border a "totally useless" idea with low support in border states.

A new poll found that 61% of Texas citizens do not approve of building a wall along the border with Mexico to keep illegal immigrants out. "I’m glad that the poll shows that people in Texas don’t think much of this wall,” Paul told the FOX Business Network’s Maria Bartiromo.

"I’ve always argued that the walls are going to hinder the American people as much as anybody," Paul said. "If somebody has honestly earned money and they want to walk across the border, they become criminals, you know, they can’t do it because they have all these regulations.”

And there it is, the truth reveals itself. Ron also says in that article that the wall is going to hinder the American people as much as anybody else(read illegal immigrants). So not even Ron Paul believes that the wall be useless. You know why? because the wall is not useless, if completed all the way through would drastically reduce the number of illegals crossing the southern border.

You continue to lose your credibility by arguing this case.

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 04:55 PM
And there it is, the truth reveals itself. Ron also says in that article that the wall is going to hinder the American people as much as anybody else(read illegal immigrants). So not even Ron Paul believes that the wall be useless. You know why? because the wall is not useless, if completed all the way through would drastically reduce the number of illegals crossing the southern border.

You continue to lose your credibility by arguing this case.

https://mises.org/wire/ron-paul-sums-his-anti-wall-anti-mass-deportation-views-immigration


The idea of building walls around the country, I think it’s a joke. I could never take a position that we need more barbed wire to solve this problem.

Actually Ron has been more specific on the idea of a wall. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/01/news/la-pn-ron-paul-nevada-latino-forum-20120201


Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.

juleswin
12-12-2018, 05:02 PM
Actually Ron has been more specific on the idea of a wall. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/01/news/la-pn-ron-paul-nevada-latino-forum-20120201



https://mises.org/wire/ron-paul-sums-his-anti-wall-anti-mass-deportation-views-immigration

Well, I guess Ron would be happy to hear this. This being that nobody is talking about building a barbed wired fence. The fences are usually built with steel bars with very narrow slits between them. They are not built with cinder blocks, woods or barbed wires. Ron was right in the first article you posted.

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 05:06 PM
Well, I guess Ron would be happy to hear this. This being that nobody is talking about building a barbed wired fence. The fences are usually built with steel bars with very narrow slits between them. They are not built with cinder blocks, woods or barbed wires. Ron was right in the first article you posted.

You mean where he said this?


President Trump's plan to build a wall along the country's Southern border a "totally useless" idea

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 05:13 PM
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2017/january/30/a-better-solution-than-trump-s-border-wall/


A Better Solution Than Trump’s Border Wall

RON PAUL

Just one week in office, President Trump is already following through on his pledge to address illegal immigration. His January 25th executive order called for the construction of a wall along the entire length of the US-Mexico border. While he is right to focus on the issue, there are several reasons why his proposed solution will unfortunately not lead us anywhere closer to solving the problem.

First, the wall will not work. Texas already started building a border fence about ten years ago. It divided people from their own property across the border, it deprived people of their land through the use of eminent domain, and in the end the problem of drug and human smuggling was not solved.

Second, the wall will be expensive. The wall is estimated to cost between 12 and 15 billion dollars. You can bet it will be more than that. President Trump has claimed that if the Mexican government doesn’t pay for it, he will impose a 20 percent duty on products imported from Mexico. Who will pay this tax? Ultimately, the American consumer, as the additional costs will be passed on. This will of course hurt the poorest Americans the most.

Third, building a wall ignores the real causes of illegal border crossings into the United States. Though President Trump is right to prioritize the problem of border security, he misses the point on how it can be done effectively and at an actual financial benefit to the country rather than a huge economic drain.

The solution to really addressing the problem of illegal immigration, drug smuggling, and the threat of cross-border terrorism is clear: remove the welfare magnet that attracts so many to cross the border illegally, stop the 25 year US war in the Middle East, and end the drug war that incentivizes smugglers to cross the border.


I believe it is important for the United States to have secure borders, but unfortunately President Trump’s plan to build a wall will end up costing a fortune while ignoring the real problem of why people cross the borders illegally.

More at link.

Superfluous Man
12-12-2018, 05:27 PM
Ron was right in the first article you posted.

I agree. That so many people here now have abandoned RP's views and instead accept all sorts of big-government means of trying to curb illegal immigration, like building border walls and other ridiculous ideas is really frustrating.

juleswin
12-12-2018, 05:37 PM
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2017/january/30/a-better-solution-than-trump-s-border-wall/





More at link.

I think Ron is talking about liberty when he is talking about the wall. When he says the wall is useless he clearly not referring about its utility in preventing human movement. And if he actually thinks building a wall is useless in preventing the movement of people, then he is wrong. Sorry zippy but this is just common sense,

oyarde
12-12-2018, 05:49 PM
But Mexicans tho

No doubt , is that where all those crappy Taco Bells came from ?

juleswin
12-12-2018, 05:49 PM
I agree. That so many people here now have abandoned RP's views and instead accept all sorts of big-government means of trying to curb illegal immigration, like building border walls and other ridiculous ideas is really frustrating.

I did not say that I supported building a wall, if it was up to me ending welfare programs which many illegals find ways of getting regardless of what zippy wants you to believe would be my #1 option in reducing illegals. I think they would still show up to the country but the ones showing up are most likely going to be more of the type who are willing and ready to work their butts off.

I am just trying to point out that walls do work, they have been historically used by public and private institutions to stop people movement.

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 06:01 PM
I did not say that supported building a wall, if it was up to me ending welfare programs which many illegals find ways of getting regardless of what zippy wants you to believe would be my #1 option in reducing illegals. I think they would still show up to the country but the ones showing up are most likely going to be more of the type who are willing and ready to work their butts off.

I am just trying to point out that walls do work, they have been historically used by public and private institutions to stop people movement.


Article from the conservative Breitbart: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/05/22/foreign-born-more-likely-to-have-job-than-native-born-americans/


Foreign-Born More Likely To Have Job Than Native-Born Americans

Foreign-born people in the U.S. were more likely to have a job last year than native-born Americans, based on new data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

In 2014, the unemployment rate for foreign-born people was 5.6 percent, compared to 6.3 percent for native-born Americans. Both groups experienced declines in unemployment from the year prior when foreign-born unemployment was 6.9 percent and native-born was 7.5 percent.



also from Breitbart: https://www.breitbart.com/border/2015/03/28/hold-think-tank-illegal-immigrant-males-more-likely-to-be-in-workforce-than-legal-immigrants-us-born-men/


Rate of Illegal Immigrant Males in Workforce 12 Percent Higher Than US-Born Males

WASHINGTON, DC — An illegal immigrant male residing in the United States is more likely to be gainfully employed than a male who is a legal immigrant or U.S.-born citizen, a senior demographer at the Pew Research Center think tank told lawmakers.

In 2012, the most recent year for which data is available, an estimated 91 percent of illegal immigrant males were in the workforce. This compares to 84 percent of legal immigrant men and 79 percent of U.S.-born males, Pew Research Center demographer Jeffrey Passel wrote in testimony prepared for a March 26 hearing held by the Senate Homeland Security & Government Affairs Committee.


Put in a different way, legal and illegal immigrant males had a better chance to be in the workforce than U.S.-born men in 2012.




“While there have been some modest changes in labor force participation rates over the past 20 years, the participation of unauthorized immigrant men and women, relative to the U.S.-born population and legal immigrants, has remained essentially unchanged since 2005,” he added.

more at links

phill4paul
12-12-2018, 06:04 PM
Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.

"Bring our troops home and put them on the border." - Someone that looked and sounded a lot like Ron Paul

juleswin
12-12-2018, 06:13 PM
Article from the conservative Breitbart: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/05/22/foreign-born-more-likely-to-have-job-than-native-born-americans/



also from Breitbart: https://www.breitbart.com/border/2015/03/28/hold-think-tank-illegal-immigrant-males-more-likely-to-be-in-workforce-than-legal-immigrants-us-born-men/

Anecdotal evidence inc but I know off an illegal immigrant who is living off welfare benefits she collected due to her American born kids. You stop many of that type of problems by ending the welfare state now.

Swordsmyth
12-12-2018, 06:16 PM
Article from the conservative Breitbart: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/05/22/foreign-born-more-likely-to-have-job-than-native-born-americans/



also from Breitbart: https://www.breitbart.com/border/2015/03/28/hold-think-tank-illegal-immigrant-males-more-likely-to-be-in-workforce-than-legal-immigrants-us-born-men/
And they get welfare anyway.

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 06:17 PM
Anecdotal evidence inc but I know off an illegal immigrant who is living off welfare benefits she collected due to her American born kids. You stop many of that type of problems by ending the welfare state now.

Getting rich off that $1.40 a meal welfare benefits the kids (and not the parents if they are not legal) are eligible for. Maybe that is why 90% of men are in the workforce.


SNAP benefits average only about $1.40 per person per meal. In fiscal year 2017, the average SNAP household received about $254 a month, while the average recipient received about $126 a month — about $1.40 per meal.

https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/2-20-18snap_f6.png

https://www.cbpp.org/research/food-assistance/chart-book-snap-helps-struggling-families-put-food-on-the-table

Swordsmyth
12-12-2018, 06:33 PM
Getting rich off that $1.40 a meal welfare benefits the kids (and not the parents if they are not legal) are eligible for. Maybe that is why 90% of men are in the workforce.



https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/2-20-18snap_f6.png

https://www.cbpp.org/research/food-assistance/chart-book-snap-helps-struggling-families-put-food-on-the-table
They get other kinds of welfare through fraud.

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 06:43 PM
Noting that the following is about legal immigrants who are eligible for benefits after they are in the country for at least five years and also immigrants who have become citizens.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/dont-blame-immigrants-bloated-welfare-state


Don’t Blame Immigrants for Bloated Welfare State

The Trump administration is in the process of writing new regulations to guarantee that certain immigrants won’t consume too many welfare or entitlement benefits. The welfare state is certainly a problem, but it’s a home-grown one, not an imported one. Welfare’s benefits are too large and too many people receive them. But the Trump administration should not blame this problem on immigrants.

In fact, immigrants use fewer welfare and entitlement benefits in than native-born Americans.

These were the results of a new study we produced for the Cato Institute. We examined data from 2016 on programs for the poor, such as Medicaid and food stamps, and also the entitlement programs of Social Security and Medicare. The latter two are the largest portion of the welfare state and twice as large as all welfare programs for the poor combined. We found that immigrants use 39 percent fewer welfare and entitlements benefits per person than native-born Americans. Immigrants are less likely to use the individual programs in most cases and, when they do, the benefits they receive tend to be smaller.

Social Security retirement benefits provide a good example. Based on the data, adult immigrants are 47 percent less likely to receive Social Security benefits than native-born American adults. Furthermore, the average amount they receive in benefits is about $1,427 below that of natives in 2016. The net effect is that immigrants individually consumed 48 percent fewer Social Security retirement benefits than natives.

Supplemental Security Income provides another example. Lower immigrant use rates and benefits mean that the average adult immigrant consumes about 22 percent less in SSI benefits than the average native-born American adult.

Welfare and entitlement programs are generally intended to aid the poor and support the elderly, but only some Americans and immigrants fall into those categories. In another section of my study, we compare poor and elderly immigrants who meet the poverty and age requirements for those programs with native-born Americans who are also eligible. In this section, immigrants consume 27 percent fewer benefits than native-born Americans.

One reason why immigrants use fewer benefits is because they are often not eligible for them. Legal immigrants cannot get welfare for their first five years of residency, with few exceptions, mostly at the state level. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for welfare except for rare circumstances like emergency Medicaid.

Immigrants are drawn to America’s labor markets, not to welfare benefits. The number of illegal immigrants apprehended on the Southwest border, a good proxy measurement for the number who want to come here, is down by 82 percent in 2017 compared to 2000. During that time, Congress has increased the number of welfare programs available for new immigrants.

If they were coming for welfare, there would be more illegal immigrants entering the country than ever. But there aren’t. Murder, the chaotic drug war in Central America, and a recovering economy here, combined with a faltering one there, is the main driver of asylum seekers and some illegal immigrants coming from that part of the world.

The fact that immigrants are in fact less likely to receive welfare benefits should dampen the fears of conservatives and libertarians who would support more legal immigration if it weren’t for welfare and entitlement programs.

Still, Congress needs to address the high cost of welfare and entitlement programs. The best option would be to severely cut the size and accessibility to the welfare and entitlement state for everybody here — immigrants and natives. The benefits are unaffordable and push millions of people out of the labor market.



More at link.

Swordsmyth
12-12-2018, 06:48 PM
Noting that the following is about legal immigrants who are eligible for benefits after they are in the country for at least five years and also immigrants who have become citizens.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/dont-blame-immigrants-bloated-welfare-state



More at link.
Corpratist American Traitors Organization propagand.

63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs Compared to 35% of native households (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?528923-63-of-Non-Citizen-Households-Access-Welfare-Programs-Compared-to-35-of-native-households)
The illegals that use stolen identities are counted among the native households as well.

Zippyjuan
12-12-2018, 06:49 PM
Corpratist American Traitors Organization propagand.

63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs Compared to 35% of native households (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?528923-63-of-Non-Citizen-Households-Access-Welfare-Programs-Compared-to-35-of-native-households)
The illegals that use stolen identities are counted among the native households as well.

Noting that the figure includes both legal and illegal residents. "non- citizens".


Non-citizens also include long-term temporary visitors (e.g. guestworkers and foreign students) and permanent residents who have not naturalized (green card holders).

It also notes:


The immigrant might not always be receiving the benefit, as with households in which a U.S.-born child qualifies for a benefit, while their undocumented or newly arrived immigrant parent does not.

Swordsmyth
12-12-2018, 06:51 PM
What programs are they actually using? Digging into the data shows that it is the $126 a month food stamps for qualifying children.
And?

CaptUSA
12-12-2018, 06:55 PM
And?

Troll fight!!

“Let’s take my path to tyranny!” “No! Your way sucks! We need to take my path to tyranny!!”

TheTexan
12-12-2018, 07:13 PM
No doubt , is that where all those crappy Taco Bells came from ?

Most Mexican food is pretty awful but Doritos Locos tacos are pretty good .

Danke
12-12-2018, 07:14 PM
Most Mexican food is pretty awful but Doritos Locos tacos are pretty good .

Taco Cabana for the win. Wish we had those up here.

Origanalist
12-12-2018, 07:34 PM
Troll fight!!

“Let’s take my path to tyranny!” “No! Your way sucks! We need to take my path to tyranny!!”

https://www.incimages.com/uploaded_files/image/970x450/patent-trolls_22946.jpg

CCTelander
12-12-2018, 08:08 PM
Troll fight!!

“Let’s take my path to tyranny!” “No! Your way sucks! We need to take my path to tyranny!!”


ROTFLMAO!!! Epic!

"you must spread some Reputation around..."

Cap
12-12-2018, 09:11 PM
My money is on Zippy. He's got more flair with his charts.

Zippyjuan
12-13-2018, 12:21 PM
NAFTA will pay for the wall.

1073195450033950720

presence
12-13-2018, 12:44 PM
I am not saying that a wall is 100% full proof, what I am saying is that a wall would make it significantly harder for immigrants to cross the border when compared to no wall at all.


the drug war makes it significantly harder to sell contraband in the open

has this reduced the amount of drugs on the street?
or simply enriched those willing to skirt the law?

the majority of drugs enter our borders through ports of entry hidden in containers.

the majority of illegalized immigrants came here legally and overstayed their visa
another sizeable share were smuggled in at ports of entry like drugs


how does a wall change that?

Zippyjuan
12-13-2018, 01:26 PM
http://fortune.com/2018/12/12/trump-border-wall-poll/


69% of Americans Don’t Think Trump's Border Wall Is a Priority, Poll Says

While talks of a wall between the U.S. and Mexico border have led to televised shouting matches between national leaders, the rest of America is less divided. More than two-thirds of Americans don’t think the wall should be a priority, according to a new poll by NPR, PBS News Hour and Marist.

Only 28% of those polled answered that the border wall should be an immediate priority, while 19% replied it shouldn’t be an immediate priority, and 50% said it shouldn’t be a priority at all.

Of those polled, a vast majority of Democrats—91%—said they didn’t think the wall was an immediate priority or said it was not a priority at all, while 35% of Republicans held that view. Sixty-three percent of Republicans thought the wall was of immediate concern compared to 7% of Democrats.

During a meeting with congressional leaders Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer on Tuesday, President Donald Trump proclaimed that he was willing and would be “proud” to let the government shut down on Dec. 21 if Congress doesn’t include funding for a wall in a proposed deal. The plan Pelosi and Schumer presented to the president didn’t include the $5 billion Trump has requested. Schumer left the meeting saying there were many confusing and contradictory statements by the president.

It isn’t the first time Trump has threatened to shut down the government over border security.

Building a wall along the country’s southern border has been a mainstay of Trump’s campaign promises, however, a majority of Americans (57%) think Trump should compromise to avoid gridlock, poll findings revealed. Only 21% agree with Trump’s current tactic of not compromising in favor of building the wall.

Results by party lines show that this issue is more divided, with 71% of Democrats believing Trump should compromise and 65% standing by his decision to not budge on the issue.



Of course if Mexico is going to pay for it, Congress should not need to allocate any US tax dollars for the project.

Superfluous Man
12-13-2018, 02:40 PM
I think Ron is talking about liberty when he is talking about the wall. When he says the wall is useless he clearly not referring about its utility in preventing human movement. And if he actually thinks building a wall is useless in preventing the movement of people, then he is wrong. Sorry zippy but this is just common sense,

That's the problem. Preventing human movement isn't a utility. It's a harm. It's a net negative and worse than useless.