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View Full Version : "Tariff Man" to the tune of Billy Joel's "Pianoman"




axiomata
12-07-2018, 01:05 AM
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday

Your iPhone is glowing and bright

There’s an old man up in Washington


Watching cable news into the night.

He says, “Let’s make America Great Again!

By slapping a tariff on steel—

And aluminum bars and on Japanese cars

Now, let’s make those foreigners kneel!”

La la la, di da da


La la, di da da da dum

So jack up that tax, you’re a Tariff Man!

Let’s make Americans pay

For the right to buy stuff from those foreigners–

We should make it here, anyway!

We grow lots of sugar in Florida

That we could’ve shipped from abroad

If it’s world price times three, grow it domestically


And make special interests applaud!

And the tariffs raise prices everywhere

And the jobs that they “save” cost a ton

We’d be better off if we didn’t scoff

At free trade, and just let things run!

La la la, di da da

La la, di da da da dum

Now Paul is a real estate contractor


He’d like to buy things for his wife

But he canceled a deal because structural steel’s

More expensive—it’s doubled in price!

And the firms are all practicing politics

As their businessmen fly to DC!

Yes, they’re spreading a problem called poverty,

And calling it prosperity!

Jack up that tax, you’re a Tariff Man!


Let’s make Americans pay

For the right to buy stuff from those foreigners–

We should make it here, anyway!

These policies concentrate benefits

And they spread costs to you and to me

These costs are concealed, but see, they are still real—

They are there, though they’re harder to see.

Some goods are expensive that shouldn’t be


Because tariffs have made them cost more!

And we’d have more for bars, and put bread in their jars

But we’re stopping goods at our shores!

La la la, di da da

La la, di da da da dum

Jack up that tax, you’re a Tariff Man!

Let’s make Americans pay

For the right to buy stuff from those foreigners–


We should make it here, anyway!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/artcarden/2018/12/04/tariff-man-to-the-tune-of-piano-man/#7d060b8c6375

phill4paul
12-07-2018, 03:54 AM
We should make it here. Why do you suppose we don't?

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 06:16 AM
We should make it here. Why do you suppose we don't?

Easy. Because our resources are better spent on other things.

Why don't you make your own hammers? Because it's less costly to you to buy them at the store. So, you can spend your time, wealth, and energy on other things of your own choosing. But if some busybody cronyist jacked up the price at the store, you'd have to either make your own, get 'em from sloppy Ned down the road who charges you more, or use a substitute. That may help Ned's business, but it screws you.

phill4paul
12-07-2018, 10:24 AM
Easy. Because our resources are better spent on other things.

Why don't you make your own hammers? Because it's less costly to you to buy them at the store. So, you can spend your time, wealth, and energy on other things of your own choosing. But if some busybody cronyist jacked up the price at the store, you'd have to either make your own, get 'em from sloppy Ned down the road who charges you more, or use a substitute. That may help Ned's business, but it screws you.

Resources, better things? Sure for the welfare recipient cheap shit is a deal. No job, no worries. CaptUSA and phil4paul can use their resources for your Obamacare, Obamaphone, housing, food, and $99 500" TV. No thanks. I'd rather see more people working for a living.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 10:32 AM
Resources, better things? Sure for the welfare recipient cheap shit is a deal. No job, no worries. CaptUSA and phil4paul can use their resources for your Obamacare, Obamaphone, housing, food, and $99 500" TV. No thanks. I'd rather see more people working for a living.

Seen vs. unseen. Never forget that.

When you use your resources in other places, you are providing people with jobs. To continue the analogy, because you didn't have to craft your own hammers, you could spend that time and money on materials that you could turn into profit. Materials you would otherwise not have been able to buy. The people who harvest those materials are only employed because you bought a cheap hammer at the store.

Or you could use your surplus for some food. And the people who supplied that food have jobs because of the cheaper hammer.

Or you could understand that each small purchase allowed you to save up for a bathroom remodel. The contractor who does that work can only do it because you saved money on the hammer and other things.

This is what we mean when we say that saved resources are spent on other things - you never know what they're going to be. Which is why it's unseen. You can easily see that Ned benefits from the cronyism, but you miss all the harm that is done because those future jobs are unseen and they don't have political weight.

phill4paul
12-07-2018, 10:48 AM
Seen vs. unseen. Never forget that.

When you use your resources in other places, you are providing people with jobs. To continue the analogy, because you didn't have to craft your own hammers, you could spend that time and money on materials that you could turn into profit. Materials you would otherwise not have been able to buy. The people who harvest those materials are only employed because you bought a cheap hammer at the store.

Or you could use your surplus for some food. And the people who supplied that food have jobs because of the cheaper hammer.

Or you could understand that each small purchase allowed you to save up for a bathroom remodel. The contractor who does that work can only do it because you saved money on the hammer and other things.

This is what we mean when we say that saved resources are spent on other things - you never know what they're going to be. Which is why it's unseen. You can easily see that Ned benefits from the cronyism, but you miss all the harm that is done because those future jobs are unseen and they don't have political weight.

I like using my resources is other places. Right here in the good ole USA. I know a fellow American has gainful employment and doesn't have to live on subsidies. I'm more than happy to buy that hammer from Detroit as opposed to Xinxangjong.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 10:51 AM
I like using my resources is other places. Right here in the good ole USA. I know a fellow American has gainful employment and doesn't have to live on subsidies. I'm more than happy to buy that hammer from Detroit as opposed to Xinxangjong.

Well, great. That's a personal decision. As long as politicians aren't trying to force your decisions to help their friends, we're cool. We all make individual decisions like this. But you must understand that your decision means that the contractor, food supplier, or material harvester is missing out on your business because you chose the hammer maker over them.

phill4paul
12-07-2018, 10:56 AM
Well, great. That's a personal decision. As long as politicians aren't trying to force your decisions to help their friends, we're cool. We all make individual decisions like this. But you must understand that your decision means that the contractor, food supplier, or material harvester is missing out on your business because you chose the hammer maker over them.

Don't mind at all when politicians force other countries to make decisions regarding an unfair market to help Americans.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 11:03 AM
Don't mind at all when politicians force other countries to make decisions regarding an unfair market to help Americans.

I'm a non-interventionist. Our politicians shouldn't be meddling in other countries at all. What their politicians do is on them - but I think we'd help those people more with our example than by trying to use our government to get their political leaders to do what we think is right. Remember, "Fair" trade is force; "Free" trade is liberty. The former brings poverty and the latter brings prosperity.

phill4paul
12-07-2018, 11:11 AM
I'm a non-interventionist. Our politicians shouldn't be meddling in other countries at all. What their politicians do is on them - but I think we'd help those people more with our example than by trying to use our government to get their political leaders to do what we think is right. Remember, "Fair" trade is force; "Free" trade is liberty. The former brings poverty and the latter brings prosperity.

That's well and good. It's a utopia. It doesn't exist. When another country subsidizes it's product to the detriment of industries and employment in ones own country it market needs to be shut off or the playing field leveled. If American companies, and workers making good wages, are making widjets for $9.99, and a foreign country subsidizes it's workers widgets to dump and sell at $1.99, it puts Americans out of work. How is that done? Place barriers such as tariffs to level the playing field and keep those countries from dumping.

Ender
12-07-2018, 11:12 AM
I'm a non-interventionist. Our politicians shouldn't be meddling in other countries at all. What their politicians do is on them - but I think we'd help those people more with our example than by trying to use our government to get their political leaders to do what we think is right. Remember, "Fair" trade is force; "Free" trade is liberty. The former brings poverty and the latter brings prosperity.

YES!

Ender
12-07-2018, 11:14 AM
That's well and good. It's a utopia. It doesn't exist. When another country subsidizes it's product to the detriment of industries and employment in ones own country it market needs to be shut off or the playing field leveled. If American companies, and workers making good wages, are making widjets for $9.99, and a foreign country subsidizes it's workers widgets to dump and sell at $1.99, it puts Americans out of work. How is that done? Place barriers such as tariffs to level the playing field and keep those countries from dumping.

How about we just make our own stuff & not worry about what other countries are doing?

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 11:27 AM
That's well and good. It's a utopia. It doesn't exist. When another country subsidizes it's product to the detriment of industries and employment in ones own country it market needs to be shut off or the playing field leveled. If American companies, and workers making good wages, are making widjets for $9.99, and a foreign country subsidizes it's workers widgets to dump and sell at $1.99, it puts Americans out of work. How is that done? Place barriers such as tariffs to level the playing field and keep those countries from dumping.

You're still missing the point. I'm trying to explain it to you, but it's like you have a mental block there. Please consider this for a little bit.

If another county is subsidizing their products to sell to us cheap, yes, it hurts Ned the hammer maker and he may lose his good wage, but it benefits the contractor, the food supplier and the material harvester. We have MORE people working not less. (which, by the way is one of the reasons why with the trade deficit being the highest it's ever been, we have near full employment) The aggregate wealth of our country is INCREASED when they "dump" their products.

You keep focusing on Ned without considering all the other industries that benefit. All the other jobs that are created because each one of us saved resources when we bought the hammer. By advocating for barriers to trade to help Ned, you are advocating for the loss of jobs in the contracting, food supplying, and material harvesting industries. Does that make more sense, stated that way?? Freedom is a good thing.


“Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.” - Milton Friedman

Ender
12-07-2018, 11:35 AM
You're still missing the point. I'm trying to explain it to you, but it's like you have a mental block there. Please consider this for a little bit.

If another county is subsidizing their products to sell to us cheap, yes, it hurts Ned the hammer maker and he may lose his good wage, but it benefits the contractor, the food supplier and the material harvester. We have MORE people working not less. (which, by the way is one of the reasons why with the trade deficit being the highest it's ever been, we have near full employment) The aggregate wealth of our country is INCREASED when they "dump" their products.

You keep focusing on Ned without considering all the other industries that benefit. All the other jobs that are created because each one of us saved resources when we bought the hammer. By advocating for barriers to trade to help Ned, you are advocating for the loss of jobs in the contracting, food supplying, and material harvesting industries. Does that make more sense, stated that way?? Freedom is a good thing.

Exactly.

And in REAL capitalism, Ned would just have to wise up & learn to make a better hammer.

CCTelander
12-07-2018, 11:42 AM
Exactly.

And in REAL capitalism, Ned would just have to wise up & learn to make a better hammer.


Or diversify and make other things in addition to hammers.

ETA: Or innovate in some other way to provide greater value to his customers and retain, or even increase, his market share and thus bottom line. But that would require some good old-fashioned American ingenuity, something in which our tariff fetishists seem to have very little faith. Apparently, they'd rather create more dependence on government by running to the nanny state for protection when things get tough, seemingly forgetting that it was that very nanny state that created the tough conditions in the first place.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 11:44 AM
It's as though people think we have a trade imbalance with the grocery store because we give them money and they give us groceries. If they have a sale on laundry detergent, they are "dumping" their soap on us, and we're supposed to be mad about it. Only a politician could twist this around so much.

CCTelander
12-07-2018, 12:03 PM
It's as though people think we have a trade imbalance with the grocery store because we give them money and they give us groceries. If they have a sale on laundry detergent, they are "dumping" their soap on us, and we're supposed to be mad about it. Only a politician could twist this around so much.


How dare they increase our wealth and standards of living by enabling us to do more with the same financial resources! The bastards!

donnay
12-07-2018, 12:57 PM
How about we just make our own stuff & not worry about what other countries are doing?

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 03:22 PM
"Government Intervention In The Marketplace Is Good When It Is A Foreign Government"
"Welfare Is Good When It Comes From A Foreign Government"
"Being Dependent On Others For Your Needs Is Good When The Others Are Hostile Foreigners"
:rolleyes:

Ender
12-07-2018, 03:47 PM
"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson

'Zactly.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 03:51 PM
'Zactly.
And they had TARIFFS as the primary form of federal taxation back then.

Ender
12-07-2018, 05:13 PM
And they had TARIFFS as the primary form of federal taxation back then.

Caused by the CONstitution- for bigger government.


Tariffs Are Not the Answer
By Ron Paul

Ron Paul Institute

March 13, 2018

President Trump’s planned 25 percent tariff on steel imports and 10 percent tariff on aluminum imports may provide a temporary boost for those industries, but the tariffs will do tremendous long-term damage to the American and global economies. Tariffs raise the price of, and reduce demand for, imported goods. Tariffs ensure the preferences of politicians, instead of the preferences of consumers, determine how resources are allocated. This reduces economic efficiency and living standards.

Some justify these economic inefficiencies as being worth it to save American jobs. This ignores how tariffs increase costs of production for industries reliant on imported materials to produce their products. These increased costs lead to job losses in those industries. For example, President Trump’s proposed steel tariff could cost nearly 40,000 jobs in the steel-dependent auto manufacturing industry. Tariffs also cause job losses in industries reliant on exports. This is especially true if — as is likely to be the case — other countries respond to President Trump’s actions by increasing tariffs on US products.

Many of President Trump’s critics do not themselves support true free trade, which is the voluntary exchange of goods and services across borders. Instead, they support the managed (by government) trade of NAFTA and the World Trade Organization (WTO). NAFTA and the WTO promote world government and crony capitalism, not free markets. Any libertarian or free-market conservative who thinks the WTO promotes economic liberty should remember that the WTO once ordered Congress to raise taxes!

Foreign manufacturers may make convenient scapegoats for the problems facing US industry. However, the truth is that most of the problems plaguing American businesses stem from the US government. American businesses are burdened by thousands of federal regulations controlling every aspect of their operations. The tax system also burdens businesses. Until last year’s tax reform bill, the US had the highest corporate tax rates in the developed word. The tax reform bill lowered corporate taxes, but the US corporate tax rate is still higher than that of many other developed countries.

The United States not only spends more on “defense” than the combined budgets of the next eight biggest spending countries, but also spends billions subsidizing the defense of developed counties like Germany, Japan, and South Korea. Bringing US troops home from these countries is an excellent place to start reducing spending on militarism.

The biggest cause of our economic problems is the Federal Reserve. America’s experiment with fiat currency has enabled a system based on private and public debt. This makes trade imbalances inevitable as the US government needs foreign investors to purchase its debt. Foreign investors get the money to purchase the US government’s debt by selling products to American consumers. A trade war could cause foreign investors to stop buying US debt instruments and could end the dollar’s world reserves currency status. This would cause a major economic crisis — but at least it would stop our shores from being flooded with “cheap foreign goods.”

President Trump’s claim that trade wars can be easily won is as credible as the neoconservative claim that the Iraq War would be a cakewalk. A trade war would likely push the global economy into a recession or worse. Instead of imposing costs on American businesses and consumers and putting those whose livelihoods depend on imports out of s job, President Trump should address the real causes of our economic problems: the welfare-warfare state, the IRS, and the Federal Reserve.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 05:17 PM
Caused by the CONstitution- for bigger government.
The states had their own tariffs BEFORE the Constitution because tariffs are the best form of taxation.

Ron is wrong about this and it has been explained many times over.

"Government Intervention In The Marketplace Is Good When It Is A Foreign Government"
"Welfare Is Good When It Comes From A Foreign Government"
"Being Dependent On Others For Your Needs Is Good When The Others Are Hostile Foreigners"
:rolleyes:

Ender
12-07-2018, 05:17 PM
Ron Paul:


A tariff is a tax levied on a foreign good, to help a special interest at the expense of American consumers.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/12/ron-paul/case-free-trade/

Ender
12-07-2018, 05:18 PM
The states had their own tariffs BEFORE the Constitution because tariffs are the best form of taxation.

Ron is wrong about this and it has been explained many times over.

"Government Intervention In The Marketplace Is Good When It Is A Foreign Government"
"Welfare Is Good When It Comes From A Foreign Government"
"Being Dependent On Others For Your Needs Is Good When The Others Are Hostile Foreigners"
:rolleyes:

No, Mr Roll-y Eyes- YOU are wrong.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 05:25 PM
No, Mr Roll-y Eyes- YOU are wrong.
I'm crushed by the weight of your logic.
2+2=5, Government Intervention In The Marketplace Is Good When It Is A Foreign Government, Welfare Is Good When It Comes From A Foreign Government, Being Dependent On Others For Your Needs Is Good When The Others Are Hostile Foreigners, The Founding Fathers Preferred an Income Tax to Tariffs and I Love Big Brother.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 08:23 PM
The states had their own tariffs BEFORE the Constitution because tariffs are the best form of taxation.

Ron is wrong about this and it has been explained many times over.

"Government Intervention In The Marketplace Is Good When It Is A Foreign Government"
"Welfare Is Good When It Comes From A Foreign Government"
"Being Dependent On Others For Your Needs Is Good When The Others Are Hostile Foreigners"
:rolleyes:

Listen up, Boromir. Low, uniform tariffs are preferable, but that's not what any of this is about. This is about cronyist protectionism. A vain attempt to help some industries at the expense of others.

What foreign governments do to their own people is none of our interest. We should show them by our example of free markets, not by more government.

We want to trade globally and govern locally. You have that backwards. You want to give politicians moar power so that they can intervene globally to what you think is your benefit.

Ron Paul is right - you are wrong. Deal with it.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 08:26 PM
Listen up, Boromir. Low, uniform tariffs are preferable, but that's not what any of this is about. This is about cronyist protectionism. A vain attempt to help some industries at the expense of others.

What foreign governments do to their own people is none of our interest. We should show them by our example of free markets, not by more government.

We want to trade globally and govern locally. You have that backwards. You want to give politicians moar power so that they can intervene globally to what you think is your benefit.

Ron Paul is right - you are wrong. Deal with it.
What foreign governments do TO OUR PEOPLE by dumping etc. IS our business.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 08:39 PM
What foreign governments do TO OUR PEOPLE by dumping etc. IS our business.

Do you realize how stupid that sounds? "Foreign governments are dumping their goods on us for cheap. We need to give our government more power to stop it!"

The mind of a Trump supporter. :rolleyes:

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 08:45 PM
Do you realize how stupid that sounds? "Foreign governments are dumping their goods on us for cheap. We need to give our government more power to stop it!"

The mind of a Trump supporter. :rolleyes:
Welfare to make some of our people dependent that also puts more of our people out of work while denying their markets to our people is NOT beneficial.

What posses you to think that any good can come of accepting stolen goods? or that welfare from a foreign government can be good in any way?

CCTelander
12-07-2018, 08:48 PM
Do you realize how stupid that sounds? "Foreign governments are dumping their goods on us for cheap. We need to give our government more power to stop it!"

The mind of a Trump supporter. :rolleyes:


"Look! Those retailers over there are having a sale! Get the torches and pitchforks!"

Trump logic.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 08:53 PM
"Look! Those retailers over there are having a sale! Get the torches and pitchforks!"

Trump logic.
Foreign governments are not restricted by the same market forces that free market businesses are subjected to.

What is really happening is: "Look the local fence is selling stolen goods at well below market value, lets go buy from him"

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 09:19 PM
Feel like posting this in this thread. Can't figure out why...

http://www.quotemaster.org/images/9f/9f39fe24a44ba7c8a9b9cd371a37e4dd.jpg

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 09:21 PM
Neocons. Always wanting war. Always thinking they can centrally plan the universe. Whether they use bombs, sanctions, or tariffs is just a matter of a which weapon of war they choose.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 09:40 PM
Neocons. Always wanting war. Always thinking they can centrally plan the universe. Whether they use bombs, sanctions, or tariffs is just a matter of a which weapon of war they choose.
And yet it seems that they oppose Trump's tariffs that actually defend against foreign trade wars against us.


Please let me know why government intervention in the marketplace is good when it is a foreign government, welfare is good when it comes from a foreign government, being dependent on others for your needs is good when the others are hostile foreigners and buying stolen goods is moral.

devil21
12-07-2018, 09:52 PM
Feel like posting this in this thread. Can't figure out why...

http://www.quotemaster.org/images/9f/9f39fe24a44ba7c8a9b9cd371a37e4dd.jpg

Only Swordsmyth can rail endlessly against big government in one thread and praise it endlessly in another thread at the same exact time.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 09:57 PM
Only Swordsmyth can rail endlessly against big government in one thread and praise it endlessly in another thread at the same exact time.
I am opposed to aggressive tariffs just as I am opposed to aggressive wars, I support defensive tariffs just as I support defensive wars.

If I had my way then we would have low uniform tariffs after other countries agreed to play fair.

specsaregood
12-07-2018, 10:02 PM
You're still missing the point. I'm trying to explain it to you, but it's like you have a mental block there. Please consider this for a little bit.

If another county is subsidizing their products to sell to us cheap, yes, it hurts Ned the hammer maker and he may lose his good wage, but it benefits the contractor, the food supplier and the material harvester. We have MORE people working not less. (which, by the way is one of the reasons why with the trade deficit being the highest it's ever been, we have near full employment) The aggregate wealth of our country is INCREASED when they "dump" their products.

You keep focusing on Ned without considering all the other industries that benefit. All the other jobs that are created because each one of us saved resources when we bought the hammer. By advocating for barriers to trade to help Ned, you are advocating for the loss of jobs in the contracting, food supplying, and material harvesting industries. Does that make more sense, stated that way?? Freedom is a good thing.

Let me help explain it to you, its sorta how you domestic wild pigs in order to make them easier to slaughter later. Feed them, get them used to not working for their food, make them dependent, then slaughter them.


Your argument works in a bubble, or arguably in a scenario where we have a gold standard. It simply doesn't work when you have a unlimited credit card. Unless of course, you want a country to collapse.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 10:03 PM
And yet it seems that they oppose Trump's tariffs that actually defend against foreign trade wars against us.

They? Who is They? You say that like You ain't They. They is you.

You're a neocon who doesn't even know it. This is classic neocon behavior. Wanting to manage the economies of the world.

Tariffs, blockades, sanctions, bombs, tanks, arrows and rocks. Just different weapons in the same tired old war. And you neocons think you can win the war better. Regardless of who gets hurt or how much wealth it costs.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 10:09 PM
I am opposed to aggressive tariffs just as I am opposed to aggressive wars, I support defensive tariffs just as I support defensive wars.

If I had my way then we would have low uniform tariffs after other countries agreed to play fair.

Neocons and progressives. Always like to use that word, "fair". "Fair trade", "Fair Labor Standards", "Fair Wages", "Fair Housing", etc. It all means one thing: MOAR government control.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 10:09 PM
They? Who is They? You say that like You ain't They. They is you.

You're a neocon who doesn't even know it. This is classic neocon behavior. Wanting to manage the economies of the world.

Tariffs, blockades, sanctions, bombs, tanks, arrows and rocks. Just different weapons in the same tired old war. And you neocons think you can win the war better. Regardless of who gets hurt or how much wealth it costs.
:sleeping:

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 10:11 PM
Neocons and progressives. Always like to use that word, "fair". "Fair trade", "Fair Labor Standards", "Fair Wages", "Fair Housing", etc. It all means one thing: MOAR government control.
Government creates UNFAIR conditions in the marketplace, that is true of foreign governments as well, the only way to get the foreign governments to stop is to use tariffs to negate their intervention and get them to agree to stop.

CCTelander
12-07-2018, 10:23 PM
Neocons and progressives. Always like to use that word, "fair". "Fair trade", "Fair Labor Standards", "Fair Wages", "Fair Housing", etc. It all means one thing: MOAR government control.


Where politics and governments are concerned ""fair" is ALWAYS a euphemism for violence or the threat of violence against those who have not aggressed against anyone.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 10:26 PM
Let me help explain it to you, tts sorta how you domestic wild pigs in order to make them easier to slaughter later. Feed them, get them used to not working for their food, make them dependent, then slaughter them.


Your argument works in a bubble, or in arguably in a scenario where we have a gold standard. It simply doesn't work when you have a unlimited credit card.

Except that not what's happening. If you were really gearing up for the slaughter of another country, the last thing you'd do is trade them goods for paper!! You'd literally be taking usable resources from your land and putting them in the enemy's land. They are making us rich. Not only in the dollars we save, but in the resources we have. And because of that wealth, we will never be dependent on a single supplier. If that's really your fear, then you aren't thinking clearly enough. Or completely enough?

We certainly have other problems, including monetary problems, but it little to do with this trade discussion. Actually, Trump has actually done some good in other areas that is hiding the tariff mess. The tax cut increased the velocity of money and the regulatory slow down removed lots of wasteful corporate spending. Both of those things are really helping. (Although, the velocity thing is always good when it first starts, but it turns bad quickly.) But the tariffs? If it weren't for the other things, we'd be screwed - but at least then, we'd recognize the damage, I suppose.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 10:28 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/182gz5.jpg

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 10:31 PM
Where politics and governments are concerned ""fair" is ALWAYS a euphemism for violence or the threat of violence against those who have not aggressed against anyone.

I guess it comes down to who you trust more to determine what is "fair": The market or Boromir up there.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 10:32 PM
Except that not what's happening. If you were really gearing up for the slaughter of another country, the last thing you'd do is trade them goods for paper!! You'd literally be taking usable resources from your land and putting them in the enemy's land. They are making us rich. Not only in the dollars we save, but in the resources we have. And because of that wealth, we will never be dependent on a single supplier. If that's really your fear, then you aren't thinking clearly enough. Or completely enough?
They are not making us rich, they are making us poor and dependent on the government and foreign manufacturers for our needs personal and strategic.
Only the globalists are getting rich.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 10:40 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/182gz5.jpg

In time of peace our government attempts to reduce our people to serfdom by subsidizing their lifestyle and making them dependent on it for their needs.

In time of trade war the enemy does to us what our government does to us in time of peace.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 10:46 PM
They are not making us rich, they are making us poor and dependent on the government and foreign manufacturers for our needs personal and strategic.
Only the globalists are getting rich.

YOU are the globalist! Sheesh. You've got things so twisted to think "globalism" is about trade. "Globalism" is about world governance. And YOU want our government to govern the world. Global trade is a great thing. Hell, it's an essential thing. Put down the ring, Boromir.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 10:52 PM
YOU are the globalist! Sheesh. You've got things so twisted to think "globalism" is about trade. "Globalism" is about world governance. And YOU want our government to govern the world. Global trade is a great thing. Hell, it's an essential thing. Put down the ring, Boromir.
LOL

The globalists openly talk of using "interdependence" to entangle formerly independent nations in world government and render any resistance futile, I support the independence of nations, it is the globalists that want us dependent on China and other totalitarian countries that are on board the world government agenda so that they can use economics to blackmail people into surrender to world government like they are using it to blackmail European countries to surrender to the EU.

Global trade is a good thing IF and only if it doesn't undermine the independence and sovereignty of our country.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 11:00 PM
LOL

The globalists openly talk of using "interdependence" to entangle formerly independent nations in world government and render any resistance futile, I support the independence of nations, it is the globalists that want us dependent on China and other totalitarian countries that are on board the world government agenda so that they can use economics to blackmail people into surrender to world government like they are using it to blackmail European countries to surrender to the EU.

Global trade is a good thing IF and only if it doesn't undermine the independence and sovereignty of our country.

:facepalming: Interdependence is a fantastic thing if controlled by market forces. But you don't want that. You want government to control it - you just want it controlled for what you think is your benefit. Any interdependence in your mind needs to be "fair" as judged by you. Not as judged by the people doing the trading. You don't trust the market. You don't trust freedom. You want a government to control the markets for you. You are 180 degrees off of Ron Paul on this.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 11:01 PM
Aside from "interdependence" cheap Chinese junk is used to lull Americans into a false belief that we can afford the tax and regulatory state, few will ever call for a serious reduction in taxation/spending or regulation as long as they can use their welfare to but subsidized Chinese imports and don't work in the industries that are damaged by the taxes and regulations.

Do you really think that the globalists who created the world we live in didn't create the "free" welfare trade situation as part of their designs for world government?

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 11:07 PM
:facepalming: Interdependence is a fantastic thing if controlled by market forces. But you don't want that. You want government to control it - you just want it controlled for what you think is your benefit. Any interdependence in your mind needs to be "fair" as judged by you. Not as judged by the people doing the trading. You don't trust the market. You don't trust freedom. You want a government to control the markets for you. You are 180 degrees off of Ron Paul on this.
Interdependence is a trap, you read what I wrote and you didn't even understand it.
I don't trust the globalists and communists who created the status quo but you do it seems.
There is no free market in international trade and you object to the tariffs that might serve to negotiate one that is more free.
I would rather have government not control the market but that isn't where we are, the Chinese communist government is controlling the market, if a government is controlling the market I would rather have it be my government that I have a small amount of control over instead of a hostile foreign communist government and maybe we can even negotiate for a market that has less government control by any government.

CaptUSA
12-07-2018, 11:18 PM
Interdependence is a trap.

Do you feel dependent on your gas station because they supply all your gas and you don't make any of your own? What if they shut it down on you?? You'd be SOL! Or you could just go to one of the other 20 gas stations around you who want your business. That's what true interdependence provides. Like a typical slave, you can't even envision a market that isn't being controlled.

Like Ron Paul said, let other nations do as they wish, but we should lower all of our tariffs regardless of what they do. Please tell me you think Ron Paul fits your definition of a "globalist".

CCTelander
12-07-2018, 11:23 PM
:facepalming: Interdependence is a fantastic thing if controlled by market forces. But you don't want that. You want government to control it - you just want it controlled for what you think is your benefit. Any interdependence in your mind needs to be "fair" as judged by you. Not as judged by the people doing the trading. You don't trust the market. You don't trust freedom. You want a government to control the markets for you. You are 180 degrees off of Ron Paul on this.


He's 180 degrees off sanity on it too. TrumpAid has done it's work well with this one.

Swordsmyth
12-07-2018, 11:31 PM
Do you feel dependent on your gas station because they supply all your gas and you don't make any of your own? What if they shut it down on you?? You'd be SOL! Or you could just go to one of the other 20 gas stations around you who want your business. That's what true interdependence provides. Like a typical slave, you can't even envision a market that isn't being controlled.
The global market is becoming ever more controlled by design and the globalists openly talk of using interdependence to snare nations into global government, they want us to be economically dependent so they can use sanctions to bring us to heel and strategically dependent so that they can conquer us directly if necessary.

There once may have been a free market in global trade but it hasn't been that way in a very long time, the only way we can keep our options open so that we can turn to other suppliers if the need arises is to maintain a minimum amount of independence and economic/military power so that our potential trade partners fear retaliation if they attempt to strong arm us into submitting to world government.

Our current Trade position is not like specializing in the job market and having limited reliance on others to supply some of our needs, it is like a welfare recipient who hardly works and is dependent on the government to support him, he must submit to any demand the government makes or lose his welfare and starve.


Like Ron Paul said, let other nations do as they wish, but we should lower all of our tariffs regardless of what they do. Please tell me you think Ron Paul fits your definition of a "globalist".
He isn't one but he has been fooled into adopting the trade position that they want to use against America.

specsaregood
12-08-2018, 12:01 AM
Except that not what's happening. If you were really gearing up for the slaughter of another country, the last thing you'd do is trade them goods for paper!! You'd literally be taking usable resources from your land and putting them in the enemy's land. They are making us rich. Not only in the dollars we save, but in the resources we have. And because of that wealth, we will never be dependent on a single supplier. If that's really your fear, then you aren't thinking clearly enough. Or completely enough?


That is a pretty myopic view of it. We have an unlimited credit card now. They are playing the long game. You give away the resources for "free" until your enemy no longer has the ability to build/create/feed itself, then you cut them off and they are at your mercy. This aint checkers.

CaptUSA
12-08-2018, 12:14 AM
That is a pretty myopic view of it. We have an unlimited credit card now. They are playing the long game. You give away the resources for "free" until your enemy no longer has the ability to build/create/feed itself, then you cut them off and they are at your mercy. This aint checkers.

I get your argument, but you seem to forget that we have other potential suppliers waiting in the wings if some country foolishly tried that. It'll never happen. And even if it did, the wealth that we've been accruing in the meantime has allowed us to build more things - not less. If this magic land existed where we were cut off completely from the rest of the world, we have the wealth of resources and capability to find substitutes. Precisely, because they've been "dumping" them here.

Man, I wouldn't think the principles of liberty are this hard to understand. They've instilled some strange foreign fear into your head in order to get more power. That's all this is.

Swordsmyth
12-08-2018, 12:20 AM
I get your argument, but you seem to forget that we have other potential suppliers waiting in the wings if some country foolishly tried that. It'll never happen. And even if it did, the wealth that we've been accruing in the meantime has allowed us to build more things - not less. If this magic land existed where we were cut off completely from the rest of the world, we have the wealth of resources and capability to find substitutes. Precisely, because they've been "dumping" them here.
Consumables aren't wealth, we are losing our capacity to produce, you are trading your fishing boat for a load of fish and failing to teach your children how to fish because a fence is offering you the "deal of a lifetime".


Man, I wouldn't think the principles of liberty are this hard to understand. They've instilled some strange foreign fear into your head in order to get more power. That's all this is.
The principles of liberty say that government intervention in the market place by a hostile foreign power is as bad or worse than domestic government intervention, "They" have created the status quo to serve them and enslave us and brainwashed the world to think it is "free trade".

CaptUSA
12-08-2018, 12:47 AM
Consumables aren't wealth.

See? This is where you don't know shyte about what your talking. Most of the consumables go the other way. From the US to China.

They are sending us electronics, machinery, equipment, furniture, toys... that kind of thing. If they were planning on destroying economically, they couldn't be doing more of an ass-backwards job of it. https://qz.com/1232833/explore-all-506-billion-in-goods-that-the-us-imported-from-china-in-2017/

Guys, they've instilled an irrational fear in you. I get it. They want power. And they've convinced you to give it to them. It's what they do. But perhaps you could take a step into reality?

Swordsmyth
12-08-2018, 01:00 AM
See? This is where you don't know shyte about what your talking. Most of the consumables go the other way. From the US to China.

They are sending us electronics, machinery, equipment, furniture, toys... that kind of thing. If they were planning on destroying economically, they couldn't be doing more of an ass-backwards job of it. https://qz.com/1232833/explore-all-506-billion-in-goods-that-the-us-imported-from-china-in-2017/

Guys, they've instilled an irrational fear in you. I get it. They want power. And they've convinced you to give it to them. It's what they do. But perhaps you could take a step into reality?
Those things are functionally consumables, they have little resale value, for the most part they can't be used for producing things and most of them get discarded.
The manufacturing capacity has all move from America to China.

"They" have power and they used it to create the system as it is because they expect to get even more power when the current system finishes of the American middle class and the American manufacturing capacity.

presence
12-08-2018, 08:29 AM
I'm crushed by the weight of your logic.

An unsolicited third party to a transaction saying you are my subject, therefore 'fuck you pay me else you can't trade' is not legit.

State intervention in markets is ALWAYS

FOREIGN, HOSTILE, OCCUPYING, and ILLEGITIMATE

it matters not the flag waved,
nor the purported territorial "jurisdiction" claimed,
nor the apparent support or number of their "entitled" subjects:



To free men peacefully contracting: Mafia is mafia.

acptulsa
12-08-2018, 08:50 AM
The principles of liberty say that government intervention in the market place by a hostile foreign power is as bad or worse than domestic government intervention, "They" have created the status quo to serve them and enslave us and brainwashed the world to think it is "free trade".

No.

No, the principles of liberty do not say, being enslaved by your own government is not as bad as being enslaved by some other government. No, the principles of liberty do not say German Jews in Auschwitz were better off, or suffering less injustice, than Romanian Jews in Auschwitz. No, the principles of liberty do not say Russians in the Siberian gulag were better off, or suffering less injustice, than Georgians in the Siberian gulag.

Do you ever stop to think it through before you post this nationalist claptrap?

You complain that the U.S. government is full of globalists then defend its interventionist actions. You refuse to acknowledge Trump--whose business has properties in two dozen nations--is a globalist, then expect us to believe you're right and Ron Paul is wrong. Well, guess what?

phill4paul
12-08-2018, 09:03 AM
An unsolicited third party to a transaction saying you are my subject, therefore 'fuck you pay me else you can't trade' is not legit.

State intervention in markets is ALWAYS

FOREIGN, HOSTILE, OCCUPYING, and ILLEGITIMATE

it matters not the flag waved,
nor the purported territorial "jurisdiction" claimed,
nor the apparent support or number of their "entitled" subjects:



To free men peacefully contracting: Mafia is mafia.

Free men aren't peacefully contracting when a foreign government subsidizes it's industry to drive out competition such as China does. It's called dumping and it has hurt American industry and workers.

Superfluous Man
12-08-2018, 09:15 AM
We should make it here.

That statement betrays utter economic illiteracy. Go away troll.

specsaregood
12-08-2018, 09:31 AM
I get your argument, but you seem to forget that we have other potential suppliers waiting in the wings if some country foolishly tried that. It'll never happen. And even if it did, the wealth that we've been accruing in the meantime has allowed us to build more things - not less. If this magic land existed where we were cut off completely from the rest of the world, we have the wealth of resources and capability to find substitutes. Precisely, because they've been "dumping" them here.

Yes, we have potential suppliers now, but they wont be supplying us after we have given up all our abilities to produce and all sources of real wealth. Production doesn't happen in a vacuum and it doesn't happen instantly. Quite frankly, there are industries that are a matter of national security and keeping the ability to produce here at home is vital --unless you don't want to have a nation at all.

All the real arguments for free trade that I have read rely on the assumption of an equilibrium and do not take into the account when one side has the global currency that they can print at will and the ability to offshore much of the inflation. With such a situation, the side with the ability to print, will do so and has no incentive to produce or sell anything and they will quickly lose those abilities.



Man, I wouldn't think the principles of liberty are this hard to understand. They've instilled some strange foreign fear into your head in order to get more power. That's all this is.

I have no "fear"; I just see the endgame and I don't want the complete collapse of government with a landmass filled with useless consumers and that is what we are headed towards and our current economic and trade policies have pointed us in that direction.

presence
12-08-2018, 09:32 AM
Free men aren't peacefully contracting when a foreign government subsidizes it's industry to drive out competition such as China does. It's called dumping and it has hurt American industry and workers.


so you want your local mob boss to do something about your troubles with a foreign mob boss?


tommy taking over this joint is like putting a silk hat on a pig...fuck you pay me

https://imgur.com/m1sFuQO.png

phill4paul
12-08-2018, 11:02 AM
That statement betrays utter economic illiteracy. Go away troll.

Whateve's, Prog Trog. :rolleyes:

CaptUSA
12-08-2018, 11:59 AM
Free men aren't peacefully contracting when a foreign government subsidizes it's industry to drive out competition such as China does. It's called dumping and it has hurt American industry and workers.

Some. Some industries and workers. You keep doing that. It has benefitted many more. But those are invisible to you. You only see the industries that can’t compete, but you entirely miss the industries that benefit from the surplus wealth. Do you not care about those American jobs?

CCTelander
12-08-2018, 12:35 PM
Some. Some industries and workers. You keep doing that. It has benefitted many more. But those are invisible to you. You only see the industries that can’t compete, but you entirely miss the industries that benefit from the surplus wealth. Do you not care about those American jobs?


With some of the tariff fetishists around here it appears to be much less about American jobs and American workers and much more about stroking their (the tariff fetishist's) nationalistic pride. Just look at the title of that recent tariff thread, something like "Boom. You can't out tariff us...." it litterally drips with a nationalistic pridefulness that's progressed well into the realm of pure hubris.

Typically, prideful people are the easiest people to manipulate. All you need do is tickle their ears with what they want to hear, stroke their pride a bit and they'll almost always follow where ever you lead. Trump has proven to be a master at this.

phill4paul
12-08-2018, 12:50 PM
With some of the tariff fetishists around here it appears to be much less about American jobs and American workers and much more about stroking their (the tariff fetishist's) nationalistic pride. Just look at the title of that recent tariff thread, something like "Boom. You can't out tariff us...." it litterally drips with a nationalistic pridefulness that's progressed well into the realm of pure hubris.

Typically, prideful people are the easiest people to manipulate. All you need do is tickle their ears with what they want to hear, stroke their pride a bit and they'll almost always follow where ever you lead. Trump has proven to be a master at this.

How was the employment, welfare enrollment and industry outlook prior to Trump winning the election? People can philosophize and believe in a free trade utopia all they want.
I look at results. And the results are self evident. Unemployment lowest since 1969, black unemployment lowest since 1972, the number of people on unemployment welfare lowest since 2010, 2 million off food stamps, 12% drop in Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Social Security Disability Insurance lowest level since 2012, Medicaid and CHIP enrollment dropped by 2 million in 2017.
Fantasize about a free trade libertarian utopia all you want. I'll take these results and expectations for more.

Aratus
12-09-2018, 09:10 AM
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday

Your iPhone is glowing and bright

There’s an old man up in Washington


Watching cable news into the night.

He says, “Let’s make America Great Again!

By slapping a tariff on steel—

And aluminum bars and on Japanese cars

Now, let’s make those foreigners kneel!”

La la la, di da da


La la, di da da da dum

So jack up that tax, you’re a Tariff Man!

Let’s make Americans pay

For the right to buy stuff from those foreigners–

We should make it here, anyway!

We grow lots of sugar in Florida

That we could’ve shipped from abroad

If it’s world price times three, grow it domestically


And make special interests applaud!

And the tariffs raise prices everywhere

And the jobs that they “save” cost a ton

We’d be better off if we didn’t scoff

At free trade, and just let things run!

La la la, di da da

La la, di da da da dum

Now Paul is a real estate contractor


He’d like to buy things for his wife

But he canceled a deal because structural steel’s

More expensive—it’s doubled in price!

And the firms are all practicing politics

As their businessmen fly to DC!

Yes, they’re spreading a problem called poverty,

And calling it prosperity!

Jack up that tax, you’re a Tariff Man!


Let’s make Americans pay

For the right to buy stuff from those foreigners–

We should make it here, anyway!

These policies concentrate benefits

And they spread costs to you and to me

These costs are concealed, but see, they are still real—

They are there, though they’re harder to see.

Some goods are expensive that shouldn’t be


Because tariffs have made them cost more!

And we’d have more for bars, and put bread in their jars

But we’re stopping goods at our shores!

La la la, di da da

La la, di da da da dum

Jack up that tax, you’re a Tariff Man!

Let’s make Americans pay

For the right to buy stuff from those foreigners–


We should make it here, anyway!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/artcarden/2018/12/04/tariff-man-to-the-tune-of-piano-man/#7d060b8c6375

o.k so..... then what?

nobody's_hero
12-10-2018, 12:09 PM
Can freedom exist without independence?
---------------------------


How was the employment, welfare enrollment and industry outlook prior to Trump winning the election? People can philosophize and believe in a free trade utopia all they want.
I look at results. And the results are self evident. Unemployment lowest since 1969, black unemployment lowest since 1972, the number of people on unemployment welfare lowest since 2010, 2 million off food stamps, 12% drop in Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Social Security Disability Insurance lowest level since 2012, Medicaid and CHIP enrollment dropped by 2 million in 2017.
Fantasize about a free trade libertarian utopia all you want. I'll take these results and expectations for more.

But muh consumption!

devil21
12-10-2018, 09:49 PM
How was the employment, welfare enrollment and industry outlook prior to Trump winning the election? People can philosophize and believe in a free trade utopia all they want.
I look at results. And the results are self evident. Unemployment lowest since 1969, black unemployment lowest since 1972, the number of people on unemployment welfare lowest since 2010, 2 million off food stamps, 12% drop in Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Social Security Disability Insurance lowest level since 2012, Medicaid and CHIP enrollment dropped by 2 million in 2017.
Fantasize about a free trade libertarian utopia all you want. I'll take these results and expectations for more.

I sure hope you never once made a comment to the effect of government numbers being fake under Obama.