So, About That Tax Cut...

[TheCount]

It's November.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXxio7EmizI

[spudea]

"I lean toward a flat tax. But I want to make it real flat, like zero.” - Congressman Ron Paul

[angelatc]

"The income tax is absolutely the worst way to raise revenue." - Ron Paul

[Zippyjuan]

Wasn't that immigrant caravan supposed to be at the border this week too? Soros was going to bus them in?

[RJ Liberty]

Trump's standard deduction tax plan will help me, this year, but without massively decreased federal spending, that debt will just burden my children.

[Grandmastersexsay]

Trump's standard deduction tax plan will help me, this year, but without massively decreased federal spending, that debt will just burden my children.

Agreed but the federal government is bringing in more tax revenue since the cuts.

[RJ Liberty]

Agreed but the federal government is bringing in more tax revenue since the cuts.

Is the increased revenue enough to cover the massively increased spending?

[angelatc]

Agreed but the federal government is bringing in more tax revenue since the cuts.

But the debt is still growing. We need to cut spending.

[angelatc]

Wasn't that immigrant caravan supposed to be at the border this week too? Soros was going to bus them in?

Zippy must be a silent owner / partner on this site. That's the only thing that explains why he doesn't get banned for trolling.

[Ender]

Zippy must be a silent owner / partner on this site. That's the only thing that explains why he doesn't get banned for trolling.

That was sarcasm-

And never understood all the angst about Zippy- Zip's always polite- just presents a different POV to consider- and we should all be looking at all sides of any equation.

IMHPOV, the "hater" trolls are the real problem here.

[Danke]

That was sarcasm-

And never understood all the angst about Zippy- Zip's always polite- just presents a different POV to consider- and we should all be looking at all sides of any equation.

IMHPOV, the "hater" trolls are the real problem here.

"different POV"

That's called mainstream media. I get enough of that on Yahoo! News.

[CaptUSA]

The spending is the real tax.

[TheCount]

The spending is the real tax.
This triggers the populist.

[CCTelander]

The spending is the real tax.


But Trump's doing so many other "good" things that this is not that big a deal. Get with the program.

[Swordsmyth]

"different POV"

That's called mainstream media. I get enough of that on Yahoo! News.
Ender's job as a member of team troll is to make far less obviously bad posts and then chime in to defend the other trolls when they are called out so that his better reputation confuses some people into accepting his ridiculous defense of the indefensible.

"Sarcasm" is his favorite defense but it isn't good enough, usually the trolls were either obviously not being sarcastic or their sarcasm was obvious and understood by everyone already and it was the message sent by the sarcasm that was the problem.

[Ender]

"different POV"

That's called mainstream media. I get enough of that on Yahoo! News.

So why are you reading Yahoo News? Sounds like a personal problem.

[dannno]

So why are you reading Yahoo News? Sounds like a personal problem.

To see what propaganda the enemy is posting so we recognize it when we see it here?

[Zippyjuan]

Agreed but the federal government is bringing in more tax revenue since the cuts.

Are they?


. The Journal’s “misleading” analysis, Goldwein said in a long twitter thread, is based on nominal data for the 2018 fiscal year, and the increase in revenue disappears as soon as the inflation is factored in. More fundamentally, it doesn’t make much sense to include data from last fall when analyzing the effects of the tax cuts, Goldwein said, since the legislation didn’t go into effect until this year, and the numbers include larger-than-expected tax revenues from the 2017 tax year. Looking at just the 2018 calendar year, it’s clear that tax revenues are indeed falling.

http://cdn.thefiscaltimes.com/cdn/farfuture/MqvlR6lwxha_BAnnxeejiasYwu7Xwc980VNHXT0LVDQ/mtime:1534195128/sites/default/files/styles/inline/public/chart-tax-revenues-Goldwein-08132018.png?itok=eb2_CCGl


“Government revenue fell 3% last month compared with a year earlier, while spending grew 10%.

Deficits are rising partly because business and individual tax rates were cut last year while government spending has been ramped up.

Gross corporate tax revenues fell 34% in July from the prior year, while taxes from individual withholding fell a smaller 1%.”

[Danke]

Ender's job as a member of team troll is to make far less obviously bad posts and then chime in to defend the other trolls when they are called out so that his better reputation confuses some people into accepting his ridiculous defense of the indefensible.

"Sarcasm" is his favorite defense but it isn't good enough, usually the trolls were either obviously not being sarcastic or their sarcasm was obvious and understood by everyone already and it was the message sent by the sarcasm that was the problem.

https://media.giphy.com/media/9mVms6Z3p8VZC/giphy.gif

[Danke]

So why are you reading Yahoo News? Sounds like a personal problem.


THANK YOU @Anti Federalist (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=3169) and @jmdrake (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=849) for showing us how great a real discussion on different POVs can be!

No name-calling, no innuendoes- just respect & clarification.



'cause I enjoy the comments, they are usual debunk the crap articles.

I also visit Drudge, which many time links to other MSM articles, like NYT, Washington Post, etc.

[spudea]

Are they?

This is what garbage fact checkers do, they take a statement like: tax revenues rose. and then they insert a different definition in order to suit their own biased argument. The same individual you are quoting [I like how you didn't link it, and I was forced to find the Fiscal Times article] said the following in his twitter thread: "It is true, nominal revenue from Oct-July is 1% higher than the same period last year. But that growth can be more than explained by inflation." So he is changing the definition of tax revenue. He also gave the following disclaimer when he tried to isolate just the Jan'18 to Jul'18 data: "(*footnote: to calculate tax year data, I removed non-withheld income and payroll tax revenue plus all revenue in October, November, and December. This methodology is imperfect, but should give us a rough sense)."

So he is criticizing the WSJ when his own data is IMPERFECT. What a fucking joke.

[Swordsmyth]

This is what garbage fact checkers do, they take a statement like: tax revenues rose. and then they insert a different definition in order to suit their own biased argument. The same individual you are quoting [I like how you didn't link it, and I was forced to find the Fiscal Times article] said the following in his twitter thread: "It is true, nominal revenue from Oct-July is 1% higher than the same period last year. But that growth can be more than explained by inflation." So he is changing the definition of tax revenue. He also gave the following disclaimer when he tried to isolate just the Jan'18 to Jul'18 data: "(*footnote: to calculate tax year data, I removed non-withheld income and payroll tax revenue plus all revenue in October, November, and December. This methodology is imperfect, but should give us a rough sense)."

So he is criticizing the WSJ when his own data is IMPERFECT. What a $#@!ing joke.
Maybe you just don't understand zippy's sarcasm.:sarcasm:

[A Son of Liberty]

Ender's job as a member of team troll is to make far less obviously bad posts and then chime in to defend the other trolls when they are called out so that his better reputation confuses some people into accepting his ridiculous defense of the indefensible.

"Sarcasm" is his favorite defense but it isn't good enough, usually the trolls were either obviously not being sarcastic or their sarcasm was obvious and understood by everyone already and it was the message sent by the sarcasm that was the problem.

So no one is supposed to present a differing point of view from yours and tims?

You know, I find it interesting that you have SO much time to post here on a libertarian forum... All hours of the day, it seems. Like you don't have anything else to do but make a TON of pro-Trump posts on this otherwise libertarian forum.

Interesting, that.

[Grandmastersexsay]

Is the increased revenue enough to cover the massively increased spending?


But the debt is still growing. We need to cut spending.

Obviously the federal budget is out of control and discretionary and non discretionary spending need to be cut. However, I was responding to a post insinuating that the tax cuts increased the deficit, while in reality, they decreased it.

[Swordsmyth]

So no one is supposed to present a differing point of view from yours and tims?
Who said that?
We just don't need the blatant enemies and their wingmen.
You seem rather keen on giving the trolls cover yourself in addition to pushing anarchy to drive normal people away from the site.


You know, I find it interesting that you have SO much time to post here on a libertarian forum... All hours of the day, it seems. Like you don't have anything else to do but make a TON of pro-Trump posts on this otherwise libertarian forum.

Interesting, that.
I am able to fit in many pro-liberty posts between doing other things, I know that makes team troll sad.

[A Son of Liberty]

Who said that?
We just don't need the blatant enemies and their wingmen.

You said that, implicitly. You didn't address his post, you just called him a troll. Ender has been here a lot longer than you.

Also, I find it interesting that you just showed up here in 2016. Hmm. How about that?


You seem rather keen on giving the trolls cover yourself in addition to pushing anarchy to drive normal people away from the site.

Been here for years, chief. My record here is clear, and I'm not ashamed of it... and believe me, we anti-statists aren't driving anyone away. But you seem to be doing your level best to give the impression that RP is somehow a nativist/nationalist a la Trump, with your Work here @ RPF.



I am able to fit in many pro-liberty posts between doing other things, I know that makes team troll sad.

lol, sure sure ya are, buddy.

ETA: I appreciate that admission... "fit in many pro-liberty posts..." You know, outside of all of your anti-liberty posts. So is it a per-post rate, or just hourly?

[Swordsmyth]

You said that, implicitly. You didn't address his post, you just called him a troll. Ender has been here a lot longer than you.

Also, I find it interesting that you just showed up here in 2016. Hmm. How about that?



Been here for years, chief. My record here is clear, and I'm not ashamed of it... and believe me, we anti-statists aren't driving anyone away. But you seem to be doing your level best to give the impression that RP is somehow a nativist/nationalist a la Trump, with your Work here @ RPF.




lol, sure sure ya are, buddy.

ETA: I appreciate that admission... "fit in many pro-liberty posts..." You know, outside of all of your anti-liberty posts. So is it a per-post rate, or just hourly?
:rolleyes:

[A Son of Liberty]

:rolleyes:

:up:

Is that the directed response on the flow chart?

ETA: Ran a quick calculation... you're averaging 26 posts per day, assuming you joined on 4/1/16... that's a pretty good clip, eh? A rather generous investment of time, I'd think. Probably pays well...

[CCTelander]

:up:

Is that the directed response on the flow chart?

ETA: Ran a quick calculation... you're averaging 26 posts per day, assuming you joined on 4/1/16... that's a pretty good clip, eh? A rather generous investment of time, I'd think. Probably pays well...


I did a quick count one time. He must have started out slowly because nowadays he's averaging between 40 and 60 posts a day. He's claimed it's "just a hobby." Apparently a hobby he's pretty passionate about.

[Swordsmyth]

:up:

Is that the directed response on the flow chart?

ETA: Ran a quick calculation... you're averaging 26 posts per day, assuming you joined on 4/1/16... that's a pretty good clip, eh? A rather generous investment of time, I'd think. Probably pays well...
It is the only response that post deserves.

Or this one.

:rolleyes:

[Grandmastersexsay]

I did a quick count one time. He must have started out slowly because nowadays he's averaging between 40 and 60 posts a day. He's claimed it's "just a hobby." Apparently a hobby he's pretty passionate about.

There are dozens of people on here. It makes perfect sense to target such a site with paid for propaganda. Do you know how much you could sway elections by influencing the dozens of people on here? It's mind boggling!

[A Son of Liberty]

I did a quick count one time. He must have started out slowly because nowadays he's averaging between 40 and 60 posts a day. He's claimed it's "just a hobby." Apparently a hobby he's pretty passionate about.

Wow!

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the low end - 40 posts per day, and assume he's in front of a computer for 10 hours a day (and it gets worse the fewer hours he spends in front of a screen, obv)... that's one post every 15 minutes. el oh el. One post every 15 minutes basically since Trump became president... HOW ABOUT THAT!? Here on a libertarian forum where we're known for being legitimately difficult to wrangle into the day-to-day fold... Isn't that SOMETHING? :tears:

[A Son of Liberty]

There are dozens of people on here. It makes perfect sense to target such a site with paid for propaganda. Do you know how much you could sway elections by influencing the dozens of people on here? It's mind boggling!

EXACTLY.

(please note that this line of posting BEGAN with swordsmyth calling Ender a "troll"... in case my sarc was lost on you...)

[A Son of Liberty]

It is the only response that post deserves.

Or this one.

:rolleyes:

That's exactly what someone would say when they have no legitimate response. Hmmm....

[Swordsmyth]

EXACTLY.

(please note that this line of posting BEGAN with swordsmyth calling Ender a "troll"... in case my sarc was lost on you...)

Did I call him a paid troll?

And we may have paid trolls here, they could be assigned to post here in between posting on other more popular forums/platforms, the fact that I post as frequently here as I do is actually evidence I am not a paid troll because I don't spend any time anywhere else.

[Swordsmyth]

That's exactly what someone would say when they have no legitimate response.

Or when the post isn't worth any other response.

You think you are winning this exchange but only your little circle of kool-aid drinkers/trolls agrees with you so I don't have to bother with a rigorous debate over your drivel.



This all started when Ender yet again rushed to the defense of the single most obvious troll on the site and now you are rushing to his...........

[tfurrh]

Or when the post isn't worth any other response.

You think you are winning this exchange but only your little circle of kool-aid drinkers/trolls agrees with you so I don't have to bother with a rigorous debate over your drivel.



This all started when Ender yet again rushed to the defense of the single most obvious troll on the site and now you are rushing to his...........

Bruh

[Swordsmyth]

Bruh


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifv-3aSEckA

[RJ Liberty]

There are dozens of people on here. It makes perfect sense to target such a site with paid for propaganda. Do you know how much you could sway elections by influencing the dozens of people on here? It's mind boggling!

For the record, 390 logged-in users (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/memberlist.php?page=13&pp=30&order=desc&sort=lastvisit) visited RPF this month, and ~1,450 individual users logged in this year. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/memberlist.php?page=49&pp=30&order=desc&sort=lastvisit) While that's not huge, factor in the many lurkers (I was one for many years and suspect that Nielsen's estimate that 90% of forum readers never log in (https://www.nngroup.com/articles/participation-inequality/) is accurate), which would put the number of forum users this year at 14,500. The forum is unfortunately a worthy target for political propaganda. All it would take is a dozen hyper-active accounts to influence about 14,500 people.

[Ender]

Or when the post isn't worth any other response.

You think you are winning this exchange but only your little circle of kool-aid drinkers/trolls agrees with you so I don't have to bother with a rigorous debate over your drivel.



This all started when Ender yet again rushed to the defense of the single most obvious troll on the site and now you are rushing to his...........

YOU are calling ME a troll? LOL

You're the biggest pusher of hate and discord on the forum- I would say that YOU are the biggest troll here. Your constant dialog is one of pushing the left/right BS & calling any real lovers of liberty "trolls".

Pretty sure that if anyone is being paid to troll this forum, it is YOU.

[Swordsmyth]

YOU are calling ME a troll? LOL

You're the biggest pusher of hate and discord on the forum- I would say that YOU are the biggest troll here. Your constant dialog is one of pushing the left/right BS & calling any real lovers of liberty "trolls".

Pretty sure that if anyone is being paid to troll this forum, it is YOU.
Funny how you defend zippy who outright opposes the mission but join in the campaign by the trolls to demonize me for having a few different opinions.

[Danke]

YOU are calling ME a troll? LOL

You're the biggest pusher of hate...


https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/419/401/c77.jpg


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[Schifference]

I don't think this site has enough traffic to justify any troll's.

Swordsmyth has many posts for which I am grateful. Without his contributions this place would have very little posted. Thank you!

Zippy harms no one and there is little to no traffic to drive away. We should focus on the real issues instead of bickering between ourselves.

All members are essential.

[A Son of Liberty]

I don't think this site has enough traffic to justify any troll's.

Swordsmyth has many posts for which I am grateful. Without his contributions this place would have very little posted. Thank you!

Zippy harms no one and there is little to no traffic to drive away. We should focus on the real issues instead of bickering between ourselves.

All members are essential.

Swordsmyth's garbage can lead anonymous visitors to believe that Ron and his admirers are Trumpists. We are not.

Honestly I don't have any particular problem with Swordsmyth beyond that. I view him and those here like him as allies on some issues, enemies on others. There's nothing wrong with that - Ron allied with folks of almost all political persuasions during his time in Congress. Again, what I find objectionable is that Swordsmyth's activity here gives a false impression of what Ron and we rather broadly believe.

My suggestion - again - to Bryan is to come up with some way to have folks either self-identify their political leanings in their profile that shows up in the post ID somehow, or something along those lines... There's nothing wrong with Trumpists or left-liberals or anyone else posting here, except that to a certain degree their activity stands to an extent as a representation of the views of Ron and the community as a whole. If members could easily be identified as "Trumpist", "Leftist", "Ron Paul Purist", "Anti-Statist", etc., it would help clarify things.

And I'll admit, this is the same complaint that many minarchists/"Ron Paul Purists" back in the day used to level at myself and other anti-statists... that we were giving the wrong impression about Ron's views to those who might visit this site anonymously. Now, I personally feel that my views are more in line with Ron's than the Trumpists, but with the invasion of these Trumpists I certainly get their concern; and I think my idea addresses this issue from both sides.

[Origanalist]

Wow!

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the low end - 40 posts per day, and assume he's in front of a computer for 10 hours a day (and it gets worse the fewer hours he spends in front of a screen, obv)... that's one post every 15 minutes. el oh el. One post every 15 minutes basically since Trump became president... HOW ABOUT THAT!? Here on a libertarian forum where we're known for being legitimately difficult to wrangle into the day-to-day fold... Isn't that SOMETHING? :tears:

It just shows his dedication to the movement.

[spudea]

Swordsmyth's garbage can lead anonymous visitors to believe that Ron and his admirers are Trumpists. We are not.

Honestly I don't have any particular problem with Swordsmyth beyond that. I view him and those here like him as allies on some issues, enemies on others. There's nothing wrong with that - Ron allied with folks of almost all political persuasions during his time in Congress. Again, what I find objectionable is that Swordsmyth's activity here gives a false impression of what Ron and we rather broadly believe.

My suggestion - again - to Bryan is to come up with some way to have folks either self-identify their political leanings in their profile that shows up in the post ID somehow, or something along those lines... There's nothing wrong with Trumpists or left-liberals or anyone else posting here, except that to a certain degree their activity stands to an extent as a representation of the views of Ron and the community as a whole. If members could easily be identified as "Trumpist", "Leftist", "Ron Paul Purist", "Anti-Statist", etc., it would help clarify things.

And I'll admit, this is the same complaint that many minarchists/"Ron Paul Purists" back in the day used to level at myself and other anti-statists... that we were giving the wrong impression about Ron's views to those who might visit this site anonymously. Now, I personally feel that my views are more in line with Ron's than the Trumpists, but with the invasion of these Trumpists I certainly get their concern; and I think my idea addresses this issue from both sides.

yeah we can all wear patches on our arms too... Heil Führer. And when someone seems to have the incorrect patch displayed I bet you'll complain about that too.

[A Son of Liberty]

yeah we can all wear patches on our arms too... Heil Führer. And when someone seems to have the incorrect patch displayed I bet you'll complain about that too.

lol, yeah, good call. My idea is fascist.

What the actual fuck...

[acptulsa]

It just shows his dedication to the movement.

Well, he's clearly not dedicated to the libertarian movement. So what movement would that be? Would bowels be involved?

[Zippyjuan]

Obviously the federal budget is out of control and discretionary and non discretionary spending need to be cut. However, I was responding to a post insinuating that the tax cuts increased the deficit, while in reality, they decreased it.

I see things have digressed in this thread since I last visited it but to go back to this topic, the tax cuts went into effect in January of this year. The fiscal year started in October. When you start looking at changes in tax revenues when you look at time-wise matters. The tax cuts did not impact tax revenues in October, November, December and actually January because the tax cuts were not yet in effect. Let's look at tax revenues. Treasury Department official statement (PDF): https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsreports/rpt/mthTreasStmt/mts0918.pdf

I will start with the most recent and work back.

September 2017 revenues (in $millions): $348,722
September 2018 revenues: $343,559
net loss of revenues from year before (and the economy also grew in the mean time): $5,163

August 2017 revenues: $226,311
August 2018 revenues: $219,115
net loss of revenues from year before: $7,196

July 2017 revenues: $232,040
July 2018 revenues: $225,266
Net loss of revenues from year before: $6,774

June 2017 revenues: $338,660
June 2018 revenues: $316, 278
Net loss of revenues from year before: $22,382

May 2017 revenues: $240,418
May 2018 revenues: $217,075
net loss of revenues from year before: $23,343

April 2017 revenues: $455,605
April 2018 revenues: $510,447
net gain in revenues from year before: $54,842

March 2017 revenues: $216,584
March 2018 revenues: $210,832
Net loss of revenues from year before: $5,752

February 2017 revenues: $171,713
February 2018 revenues: $155,623
net loss of revenue from year before: $16,090

That gives us only one month after the tax cuts went into effect where revenues were above the previous year. For all other months, the revenues have been down.

Net loss of revenue in that time: $31.858 billion compared to the year before. This includes all sources of government revenues, not just taxes. The tariffs on steel and aluminum have brought in an estimated $4 billion. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-20/trump-s-china-metals-tariffs-reach-4-billion-in-new-revenue It is not true that government revenues have been higher since the tax cuts went into effect. Lower revenues add to the deficit- they do not decrease it.

[Ender]

Funny how you defend zippy who outright opposes the mission but join in the campaign by the trolls to demonize me for having a few different opinions.

So, it's OK for you to call me a troll but if I give it backatcha, then it's demonizing?

Ah...... more Trumpsplaining.... I get it.

[Swordsmyth]

So, it's OK for you to call me a troll but if I give it backatcha, then it's demonizing?

Ah...... more Trumpsplaining.... I get it.
No, you participated in the attempts to demonize me long before this exchange.

And you always rush to defend zippy and many of the other obvious trolls while never attacking them, if you aren't officially working with them then you have psychological issues that cause you to voluntarily side with your enemies and attack those that should be your friends even if they differ with you on a few issues.

[Swordsmyth]

Swordsmyth's garbage can lead anonymous visitors to believe that Ron and his admirers are Trumpists. We are not.

Honestly I don't have any particular problem with Swordsmyth beyond that. I view him and those here like him as allies on some issues, enemies on others. There's nothing wrong with that - Ron allied with folks of almost all political persuasions during his time in Congress. Again, what I find objectionable is that Swordsmyth's activity here gives a false impression of what Ron and we rather broadly believe.

My suggestion - again - to @Bryan (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=2) is to come up with some way to have folks either self-identify their political leanings in their profile that shows up in the post ID somehow, or something along those lines... There's nothing wrong with Trumpists or left-liberals or anyone else posting here, except that to a certain degree their activity stands to an extent as a representation of the views of Ron and the community as a whole. If members could easily be identified as "Trumpist", "Leftist", "Ron Paul Purist", "Anti-Statist", etc., it would help clarify things.

And I'll admit, this is the same complaint that many minarchists/"Ron Paul Purists" back in the day used to level at myself and other anti-statists... that we were giving the wrong impression about Ron's views to those who might visit this site anonymously. Now, I personally feel that my views are more in line with Ron's than the Trumpists, but with the invasion of these Trumpists I certainly get their concern; and I think my idea addresses this issue from both sides.
I'm sorry to break it to you but Ron isn't an anarchist and it is far more off-putting to ordinary people who come here to see the anarchists posting here while announcing that they are the only true fans of Dr. Ron, Rand himself is friendly with Trump and I have plenty of company on this site for almost all of my positions.

Ron's following was always diverse and any intelligent person can come here and see it is still diverse.

It is quite foolish to ask labels to be applied to the members here because few of us would fit any specific label and most of those that would fit one would likely reject it and insist that they didn't fit it, it really is quite ironic to see such a collectivist suggestion on this site and doubly so coming from one of the anarchists.

[Ender]

No, you participated in the attempts to demonize me long before this exchange.

And you always rush to defend zippy and many of the other obvious trolls while never attacking them, if you aren't officially working with them then you have psychological issues that cause you to voluntarily side with your enemies and attack those that should be your friends even if they differ with you on a few issues.

Uh....NO.

I get along with many people on this forum who I don't agree with 100%. It is you who have the issues & always spread the hate.