Proof Please!

[RazoR]

Original idea from: Libertad2008

Here's what he said:

"We need to have teams of at least 4 people with cameras at all primaries and caucauses, documenting all activity. We need to cover the directors, security, voting, and have someone vote and record the machine as well"

The idea is to gather people to fully record the whole progress of the primaries in order to prove Ron Paul's real support.
Let's become/gather scrutineers! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrutineer
Suggestions are welcome, discuss.:cool:

[Andrew-Austin]

Here here, great idea.

Exactly how many caucuses and primaries are there though? Could we even find enough people?

[Wingman]

well if everyone brings their cell phone cams it, and then some of them post their cams on the web that should be sufficient.

we only need enough to be ready to raise questions if necessary.

just make sure the organisers KNOW we are documenting and asking questions of everything.

for example: if in florida the result turns out yuck for ROn Paul then we bring to big media all the cams we took plus all the obviously unanswered questions about their shoddy polling techniques. then we take it to the supreme court.

[RazoR]

I think people will overlook it, we need a serious group or volunteers.
And on the announcing it to the organisers, I don't know. They might expell you? Or would you just want be making sure you're acting legally?

IMO, the only thing legal about the voting would be the filming of it.:D

[LibertiORDeth]

So, no matter how they cast/count the ballots, even on machines, we can count them?

[hawkeyenick]

Original idea from: Libertad2008

Here's what he said:

"We need to have teams of at least 4 people with cameras at all primaries and caucauses, documenting all activity. We need to cover the directors, security, voting, and have someone vote and record the machine as well"

The idea is to gather people to fully record the whole progress of the primaries in order to prove Ron Paul's real support.
Let's become/gather scrutineers! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrutineer
Suggestions are welcome, discuss.:cool:

The official campaign is already doing all of this

They have everything covered guys

[RazoR]

The official campaign is already doing all of this

They have everything covered guys
The RP campaign? Idk man, I want real people to go out there, so WE can show the material when needed.

[Libertad2008]

My main impetus for suggesting this was because we have been too reactionary in the past to people's deceitfulness, and have been taken advantage of for this reason.

If they choose to play dirty, the least we can/should do is document it for all to see. We absolutely, unequivocally must do this for all major primaries/caucuses.

We need teams of no less than 4 people with digital video cameras, preferably more. The sites for the primaries/caucuses are announced ahead of time (I don't have a list at the moment) so we need to map out the locations and the interiors to best know where to position people. The ones who have actually been chosen as delegates can take over the interior (monitoring the machines when they vote, seeing if people vote multiple times, etc.) while the others can monitor the exterior and have multiple people counting entrants/delegates, especially the RP supporters.

This is totally legal, and is known as poll watching.

Suggestions anyone...?

Viva la Revolución!!!!

[Finn]

Didn't Ron Paul's son himself encourage us to become poll watchers today on Alex Jones show? If I am wrong let me know. Personally I can only see this as a positive thing.

[Tina]

The RP campaign? Idk man, I want real people to go out there, so WE can show the material when needed.

I agree.

[Revolutn]

Didn't Ron Paul's son himself encourage us to become poll watchers today on Alex Jones show? If I am wrong let me know. Personally I can only see this as a positive thing.

He did. I heard it.
If you want to hear it, grab the podcast from iTunes.

[Fox McCloud]

I most certainly agree with this. The Texas delegates straw poll was a huge manipulation, and I don't think any of us want to see that happen again.

getting enough people for every single voting location will be tough (especially in rural areas), but, it probably could be done. I certainly hope this goes through, as it would really help cut down (or eliminate) on corruption in action....and could help prove (or would prove) corruption behind the scenes.

[phree]

What about asking Paul voters if they would like to sign something like a petition before they vote and stating their intention to vote for him?

Would it be legal?

[zbus12]

I don't know how you can go about doing this but....

First, someone MUST test the voting machines- make a test vote simulation (ex. 5 for candidate A - 2 for candidate B - 10 for candidate C ect...)

Then print out the final count of the test vote to see if the total votes match up with the candidates properly.

Then, what they do next is they take the memory cards out of the voting machines and compile all the votes in a computer called the "central tabulator". - This is where the vote can be SERIOUSLY MANIPULATED.

So when they gather all the votes onto this machine, *THIS IS WHERE SOMEONE NEEDS TO BE THERE TO WATCH WHAT THEY DO* because they can simply go into the program and CHANGE NUMBERS VERY EASILY to make the outcome be whatever they want with virtually NO security passwords to type in or ANY REAL security at all! This is how John Kerry's vote got manipulated.

So somehow people need to be finding out how they can go about being a tester of these machines and also be there when they tabulate ALL the votes to make sure that NO ONE changes the numbers. Document everything you see and make sure that you see the final voting receipt tape.

Testing and making sure the voting machines themselves aren't producing the wrong votes is one thing, but to be there when they load these votes onto the central tabulator and making sure that it doesn't get manipulated is what I think there is MUCH secrecy about and people NEED to be there to make sure that everything comes out right is a MUST!

[hawkeyenick]

I don't know how you can go about doing this but....

First, someone MUST test the voting machines- make a test vote simulation (ex. 5 for candidate A - 2 for candidate B - 10 for candidate C ect...)

Then print out the final count of the test vote to see if the total votes match up with the candidates properly.

Then, what they do next is they take the memory cards out of the voting machines and compile all the votes in a computer called the "central tabulator". - This is where the vote can be SERIOUSLY MANIPULATED.

So when they gather all the votes onto this machine, *THIS IS WHERE SOMEONE NEEDS TO BE THERE TO WATCH WHAT THEY DO* because they can simply go into the program and CHANGE NUMBERS VERY EASILY to make the outcome be whatever they want with virtually NO security passwords to type in or ANY REAL security at all! This is how John Kerry's vote got manipulated.

So somehow people need to be finding out how they can go about being a tester of these machines and also be there when they tabulate ALL the votes to make sure that NO ONE changes the numbers. Document everything you see and make sure that you see the final voting receipt tape.

Testing and making sure the voting machines themselves aren't producing the wrong votes is one thing, but to be there when they load these votes onto the central tabulator and making sure that it doesn't get manipulated is what I think there is MUCH secrecy about and people NEED to be there to make sure that everything comes out right is a MUST!


The campaign already has all of this covered, they just need us to volunteer once we get there

[zbus12]

you should watch the movie "hacking democracy" on google video. It will give you an idea about how deep the rabbit hole goes. It will also give you some insight on how the vote counting process happens.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4463776866669054201&q=hacking+democracy&total=46&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

[zbus12]

The campaign already has all of this covered, they just need us to volunteer once we get there


That's the thing that I am wondering, How can we "volunteer" and how much will we be able to do? And who do you ask about volunteering?

[hawkeyenick]

That's the thing that I am wondering, How can we "volunteer" and how much will we be able to do? And who do you ask about volunteering?

They are actually going to have people watching the ballots made (as much is legally possible), and then listening as they are reported over the phone, and then keeping an excel sheet to make sure it's all accurate

Most ballots are paper in Iowa, maybe even all

[zbus12]

Most ballots are paper in Iowa, maybe even all

That's a good thing at least!

[zbus12]

here in sangamon co. IL there has already been the aroma of FRAUD in the past and I will do whatever I can to make sure it doesn't happen.

[RazoR]

I don't know how you can go about doing this but....

First, someone MUST test the voting machines- make a test vote simulation (ex. 5 for candidate A - 2 for candidate B - 10 for candidate C ect...)

Then print out the final count of the test vote to see if the total votes match up with the candidates properly.

Then, what they do next is they take the memory cards out of the voting machines and compile all the votes in a computer called the "central tabulator". - This is where the vote can be SERIOUSLY MANIPULATED.

So when they gather all the votes onto this machine, *THIS IS WHERE SOMEONE NEEDS TO BE THERE TO WATCH WHAT THEY DO* because they can simply go into the program and CHANGE NUMBERS VERY EASILY to make the outcome be whatever they want with virtually NO security passwords to type in or ANY REAL security at all! This is how John Kerry's vote got manipulated.

So somehow people need to be finding out how they can go about being a tester of these machines and also be there when they tabulate ALL the votes to make sure that NO ONE changes the numbers. Document everything you see and make sure that you see the final voting receipt tape.

Testing and making sure the voting machines themselves aren't producing the wrong votes is one thing, but to be there when they load these votes onto the central tabulator and making sure that it doesn't get manipulated is what I think there is MUCH secrecy about and people NEED to be there to make sure that everything comes out right is a MUST!

Great point. I think these kind of comments shape this idea, rather than saying it's not necessary. We need to try to do anything to ensure a fair election. If this is what it takes, so be it. I say don't let anything limit our amount of support. On the other hand, we will have to - regardless of the time running out - think out our plans properly. Sending a mass into an open field is useless, leading it into the right way is the policy.
Any ideas/advice/comment on this idea is greatly appreciated, don't leave out reasons if opposing it.

[Bradley in DC]

Whatever your intentions, this is more likely going to be perceived and voter intimidation and a violation of LOTS of election laws. You need to do a LOT more research into what you're thinking here.

[Bradley in DC]

Didn't Ron Paul's son himself encourage us to become poll watchers today on Alex Jones show? If I am wrong let me know. Personally I can only see this as a positive thing.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=51063

[Ridiculous]

Take off work that day and volunteer to be a poll worker...