PDA

View Full Version : Ron Paul R3volution falls victim to Trump and frustration




Matt Collins
08-16-2018, 12:44 PM
Sadly, an accurate write-up....

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/aug/14/ron-paul-revolution-falls-victim-frustration-donal/

dannno
08-16-2018, 12:47 PM
Victim? So far it's the best thing that has happened.. that may be a a little unfortunate, but it's not negative...

This shit isn't going to turn around over night.

dannno
08-16-2018, 12:57 PM
“Maybe Donald Trump (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/donald-trump/) is the guy who can break up the deep state so someone like Ron (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/ron-paul/) or Rand (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/rand-paul/) can get in and legislate to make the changes we want.“After all,” he said, “to make changes you have to cut the dragon’s head off.”

Ya

thoughtomator
08-16-2018, 01:05 PM
Every single one of the complainers' quotes are basically complete bullshit - every one, without exception. And that is typical of Paulers who haven't hopped on board the Trump train, they are reacting illogically, emotionally, and are more butthurt than rational.

A lot of sour grapes from a lot of people who really should know better.

dannno
08-16-2018, 01:09 PM
Every single one of the complainers' quotes are basically complete bullshit - every one, without exception. And that is typical of Paulers who haven't hopped on board the Trump train, they are reacting illogically, emotionally, and are more butthurt than rational.

A lot of sour grapes from a lot of people who really should know better.

Ya, Trump isn't anywhere close to a perfect libertarian, but when you start talking about partisanship and saying things like Trump is no better than Obama, that is just ignorant..

The whole issue with partisanship was that Bush and Gore, Bush and Kerry, Dole and Clinton, Obama and McCain, Romney - these people are all evil - they are all deep staters. It was no better to support one over the other. Trump is not in the same category as these people. He may be on some issues, and may not be as passionate about some issues as we are, but he is not working for the deep state. He even has some deep state folks in his cabinet, but that is to further his goals - he does not have the same goals as the deep state, in fact they are quite opposed to each other.

Ron Paul even brought some Green Party folks in to semi-endorse in one election. They are socialists.. But they aren't part of the deep state. I think some people just don't "get it". Or they think Trump is a deep state guy cause he is really rich or something.

thoughtomator
08-16-2018, 01:15 PM
Also when they talk about Trump's tariff policy as if some free market existed that the tariffs were disrupting, that tells me that these people either have financial vested interests they are not disclosing, or are amazingly ill-informed about the reality of just how bad US international trade arrangements have been.

None of these are serious people, and that renders the article itself non-serious. The article also makes an additional claim, without quote or attribution, that some are upset about Trump lying - which to me is a red flag that the author is a Communist, as that is one of their signature lines.

Brian4Liberty
08-16-2018, 01:47 PM
Glass is half empty and beltway libertarian lamentations.

CaptUSA
08-16-2018, 02:18 PM
Sorry, guys - this article is right. Look around in here. Just because you have been conned into the Trump bandwagon doesn't mean "most" of us have.

Most of us have abandoned this place and returned to apathy. That's the fact.

Hell, I almost would have preferred a Hillary win at this point. At least then, we'd be united in opposition to the growing State. But alas, many of you are now cheering for it. If you can't see what Trump has done to the Ron Paul R3VOLution, then you are indeed blind.


“Ron Paul, if he taught us one thing, it was right from wrong and not partisanship,” said Jane Aitken, co-founder the New Hampshire Tea Party Coalition and taxpayer advocate. “I am finding that people have forgotten that they are all of a sudden very partisan.”

“We saw it with the Obamabots; we are seeing it with Trump now,” she said. “People put all their eggs in one basket with one person. It goes against common sense.”

She has become jaded when it comes to national politics and has decided she can do more at the state and local levels.


Admittedly, Trump has done some good things, but the damage done to the principles of true liberty will probably never be repaired in my lifetime.

Origanalist
08-16-2018, 03:12 PM
Every single one of the complainers' quotes are basically complete bullshit - every one, without exception. And that is typical of Paulers who haven't hopped on board the Trump train, they are reacting illogically, emotionally, and are more butthurt than rational.

A lot of sour grapes from a lot of people who really should know better.

They haven't hopped on the Trump bandwagon for the same reason Ron Paul hasn't, I'll wait until his second term (which I believe he'll get), before I make any solid judgements. But so far he's way too much of a copsucker, way too much of a cheerleader for the police state/surveillance state/ military industrial complex to give him much support in my opinion. Put those aside and he has a couple redeeming qualities, but I can't/won't put them aside.

Swordsmyth
08-16-2018, 03:13 PM
Sorry, guys - this article is right. Look around in here. Just because you have been conned into the Trump bandwagon doesn't mean "most" of us have.

Most of us have abandoned this place and returned to apathy. That's the fact.

Hell, I almost would have preferred a Hillary win at this point. At least then, we'd be united in opposition to the growing State. But alas, many of you are now cheering for it. If you can't see what Trump has done to the Ron Paul R3VOLution, then you are indeed blind.



Admittedly, Trump has done some good things, but the damage done to the principles of true liberty will probably never be repaired in my lifetime.

Even if you were right that would just mean that most libertarians don't know how to win, they would rather complain about not getting perfection than appreciate the progress that is being made and they would rather go to hell in a handbasket than make incremental improvements.

We have no chance at this point to see our entire agenda enacted all at once but we can move the mainstream our direction so that one day we might be able to.

Fortunately I don't believe you that the losertarians are the majority of the movement, I think that you are just the loudest fraction.

thoughtomator
08-16-2018, 03:15 PM
More ditched this place when a certain someone was allowed to run a Stalinist purge of anyone who had anything neutral or better to say about Trump.

Trump, meanwhile, has turned out to be the most libertarian President in living memory, taking cue after cue after cue from Rand Paul, and future prospects for enactment of libertarian policy are as bright as they have been in ages. Which leaves alleged libertarians who grasp for weak excuses to be anti-Trump with an unbridgable credibility chasm.

Origanalist
08-16-2018, 03:16 PM
Even if you were right that would just mean that most libertarians don't know how to win, they would rather complain about not getting perfection than appreciate the progress that is being made and they would rather go to hell in a handbasket than make incremental improvements.

We have no chance at this point to see our entire agenda enacted all at once but we can move the mainstream our direction so that one day we might be able to.

Fortunately I don't believe you that the losertarians are the majority of the movement, I think that you are just the loudest fraction.

Losertarians? Fucking really? Are you Micheal Medved? Curious minds want to know, because that would explain a lot.

Swordsmyth
08-16-2018, 03:16 PM
They haven't hopped on the Trump bandwagon for the same reason Ron Paul hasn't, I'll wait until his second term (which I believe he'll get), before I make any solid judgements. But so far he's way too much of a copsucker, way too much of a cheerleader for the police state/surveillance state/ military industrial complex to give him much support in my opinion. Put those aside and he has a couple redeeming qualities, but I can't/won't put them aside.

I stand with Rand, I will support Trump in everything he does right and against his enemies that are worse than him until I have a better option to replace him with.

Origanalist
08-16-2018, 03:17 PM
More ditched this place when a certain someone was allowed to run a Stalinist purge of anyone who had anything neutral or better to say about Trump.

Trump, meanwhile, has turned out to be the most libertarian President in living memory, taking cue after cue after cue from Rand Paul, and future prospects for enactment of libertarian policy are as bright as they have been in ages. Which leaves alleged libertarians who grasp for weak excuses to be anti-Trump with an unbridgable credibility chasm.

Concern trolling.

Swordsmyth
08-16-2018, 03:19 PM
Losertarians? $#@!ing really? Are you Micheal Medved? Curious minds want to know, because that would explain a lot.
If you read carefully Uncle Joe you will see that that is my name for a sub-faction of libertarians that would rather lose than accept imperfect results, they are very good at losing but they haven't the faintest idea how to win.

Origanalist
08-16-2018, 03:23 PM
If you read carefully Uncle Joe you will see that that is my name for a sub-faction of libertarians that would rather lose than accept imperfect results, they are very good at losing but they haven't the faintest idea how to win.

Uh huh, I guess we'll see how much 'winning' we've done by the end of his second term. From a libertarian perspective.

Anti Federalist
08-16-2018, 03:41 PM
They haven't hopped on the Trump bandwagon for the same reason Ron Paul hasn't, I'll wait until his second term (which I believe he'll get), before I make any solid judgements. But so far he's way too much of a copsucker, way too much of a cheerleader for the police state/surveillance state/ military industrial complex to give him much support in my opinion. Put those aside and he has a couple redeeming qualities, but I can't/won't put them aside.

This is my biggest problem with Trump.

On many other fronts, he is moving the ball forward in positive ways.

Overall, after two years now of watching this, we are in better shape than if Hillary had been appointed, and that's a plain fact.

Origanalist
08-16-2018, 03:48 PM
This is my biggest problem with Trump.

On many other fronts, he is moving the ball forward in positive ways.

Overall, after two years now of watching this, we are in better shape than if Hillary had been appointed, and that's a plain fact.

Ya, there's no denying that. 8 years of that evil crone after 8 of Obama may have been more than the planet could handle, much less me.

Brian4Liberty
08-16-2018, 04:03 PM
They haven't hopped on the Trump bandwagon for the same reason Ron Paul hasn't, I'll wait until his second term (which I believe he'll get), before I make any solid judgements. But so far he's way too much of a copsucker, way too much of a cheerleader for the police state/surveillance state/ military industrial complex to give him much support in my opinion. Put those aside and he has a couple redeeming qualities, but I can't/won't put them aside.

Ron Paul has not jumped on the Trump train, and he has not come down with Trump Derangment Syndrome. He is just doing his usual reasoned analysis, pointing out the good, pointing out the bad, supporting the good, opposing the bad. And yes, the worse thing Trump does is his support of the bloated warfare/surveillance state, even though it is fun to see them go into fits every time he deviates from their propaganda talking points.

For some reason it appears that many don’t pay attention to Ron any more, even on this forum. Maybe because he hasn’t taken sides, and also because some people here only agreed with Ron on certain issues, maybe even just a couple.

He is not running for office now, which is also a huge factor. The article does significantly leave out the Freedom Caucus, which for the most part evolved from the Tea Party movement. There are good members of Congress that came from the Ron Paul moment, such as Thomas Massie, Justin Amash and several others that did not tie themselves to Ron Paul directly.

Anti Federalist
08-16-2018, 04:07 PM
Ya, there's no denying that. 8 years of that evil crone after 8 of Obama may have been more than the planet could handle, much less me.

Hear hear...granted, before anybody breathes fire down the back of my neck, that's not to excuse any of the chowder headed things Trump has or may do.

Just pointing it, on the overall "freedom front" we have had some gains.

Origanalist
08-16-2018, 04:10 PM
Ron Paul has not jumped on the Trump train, and he has not come down with Trump Derangment Syndrome.[snip

That's really the only place anyone should be. I've made it pretty plain I'm not a supporter but there is no denying he's not 100% bad.

Anti Globalist
08-16-2018, 04:17 PM
All the liberty movement has to do is get a bunch of alpha males that believe in freedom and liberty and run their campaigns the same way that Trump did. Ron, Rand, Amash, and Massie are all great guys but they're not exactly alpha. If we did that in the past, I guarantee the country would have been taken back decades ago.

DamianTV
08-16-2018, 05:56 PM
It might be nice if Trump funded a Ron Paul campaign! Or even put Ron Paul in a high position in power.

I think most of us still genuinely believe in liberty, and Trump is more of a distraction from Ron Paul. We all should be able to recognize that it isnt just about Ron Paul, but the fundamental ideas he carries. Trump does not carry those ideas well enough for me. We are still alive, but quite disorganized without a strong figurehead to carry that proverbial torch. With the outright attacks on Free Speech now being authorized, we have a very big problem if we have no place we can organize and discuss problems and solutions.

angelatc
08-16-2018, 06:58 PM
Sorry, guys - this article is right. Look around in here. Just because you have been conned into the Trump bandwagon doesn't mean "most" of us have.

Most of us have abandoned this place and returned to apathy. That's the fact.

Yep.


Hell, I almost would have preferred a Hillary win at this point. At least then, we'd be united in opposition to the growing State.

Nope.

I think Obama took the wind out of our sails long before Trump showed up. We couldn't even unite behind Rand.

phill4paul
08-16-2018, 07:02 PM
The R3volution is doing as good as can be expected. It's had gains. Rand, Massie, Amash, and others in the Freedom Caucus. And of course Ron just hasn't faded away. He's still there dispensing wisdom. I don't necessarily think this war between the parties, exacerbated by Trump, and the status-quo political hacks which inhabit both, is a bad thing. It keeps their eye off off liberty candidates.

PursuePeace
08-16-2018, 07:26 PM
“If we got Ron Paul elected, would he do what Donald Trump did? Maybe not,” Mr. Bunce said. “Maybe Donald Trump is the guy who can break up the deep state so someone like Ron or Rand can get in and legislate to make the changes we want.

“After all,” he said, “to make changes you have to cut the dragon’s head off.”

That part of the article was accurate.

wizardwatson
08-16-2018, 07:28 PM
Sadly, an accurate write-up....

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/aug/14/ron-paul-revolution-falls-victim-frustration-donal/

I don't think it's accurate.

What has yet to happen is organization around principles instead of candidates. The movement has no organizational substance outside of cult of personality allegiance and leftover moneybomb aftershocks.

The whole history is an amazing lesson to me that insight, talent, money, ideas, don't necessarily translate into action.

For all our indignation, as a movement, we're still Neo in Oracle's kitchen munching on a cookie, waiting for an omen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHGIGwiMK6c

euphemia
08-16-2018, 07:31 PM
Trump is doing it his way. At least he’s doing it.

thoughtomator
08-16-2018, 07:35 PM
For all our indignation, as a movement, we're still Neo in Oracle's kitchen munching on a cookie, waiting for an omen.



How much more out of the blue and unexpected does the Trump phenomenon have to have been in order for people to realize it was precisely the omen "libertarian Neos" were looking for? Suddenly handed the perfect tool to defeat Agent Smith, so many decided to instead worry about the integrity of the Matrix.

CaptUSA
08-16-2018, 07:41 PM
Trump is doing it his way. At least he’s doing it.

Doing what?! Growing government and getting former liberty folks to cheer him on?! Yay.

At least if it was Hillary doing this stuff, people would be up in arms in opposition. Trump grows spending and the response is pathetic.

Matt Collins
08-16-2018, 08:28 PM
The R3volution produced a lot of fruit, but sadly it failed to reach its full potential largely due to failed leadership at the top.

Anti Federalist
08-16-2018, 08:34 PM
Doing what?! Growing government and getting former liberty folks to cheer him on?! Yay.

At least if it was Hillary doing this stuff, people would be up in arms in opposition. Trump grows spending and the response is pathetic.

Trump has cut regulation, he has done his level best to slap down the EPA (the alphabet soup agency I am convinced is the single biggest threat to liberty), he has made former trading "partners" take notice that trade deals are no longer going to be one sided globalist affairs, he has done his level best to repeal Obamacare, providing EO relief when the establishment GOP sluts refused, in spite of his bluster he has stood by the second amendment, he is doing his level best to appoint constitutionalist judges throughout the federal judiciary, he has made peace overtures to NK and to Russia, thereby averting war that the establishment, represented by Hillary, wanted so badly...just to name a few things off the top of my head.

I'm not cheering him on, I'm giving credit where it's due.

As a whole, from a freedom perspective, we are better off, factually.

To think Hillary would have done any of that is irrational.

thoughtomator
08-16-2018, 08:43 PM
To think Hillary would have done any of that is irrational.

It is indicative of someone who either was never on the side of liberty to begin with, now or in the past, but has chosen to attach themselves to liberty groups under a different motivation, such as careerism or virtue signaling. As with the GOP and Dem parties, the liberty side consulting class has clearly diverged from the base.

RJB
08-16-2018, 08:48 PM
I agree. I was totally against Trump at the beginning, but he has surprised me. He is flawed, but much better than expected. I think people go off the rails when they get too invested in a stance due to emotions. You can see it where the bad feelings held over from 2016 has caused many people to dig in their heels and either totally hate him or totally like him. People get ruled by their passions and take stances due to bad feeling s from old arguments rather than by core beliefs.




Trump has cut regulation, he has done his level best to slap down the EPA (the alphabet soup agency I am convinced is the single biggest threat to liberty), he has made former trading "partners" take notice that trade deals are no longer going to be one sided globalist affairs, he has done his level best to repeal Obamacare, providing EO relief when the establishment GOP sluts refused, in spite of his bluster he has stood by the second amendment, he is doing his level best to appoint constitutionalist judges throughout the federal judiciary, he has made peace overtures to NK and to Russia, thereby averting war that the establishment, represented by Hillary, wanted so badly...just to name a few things off the top of my head.

I'm not cheering him on, I'm giving credit where it's due.

As a whole, from as freedom perspective, we are better off, factually.

To think Hillary would have done any of that is irrational.

Cleaner44
08-16-2018, 09:11 PM
This is my biggest problem with Trump.

On many other fronts, he is moving the ball forward in positive ways.

Overall, after two years now of watching this, we are in better shape than if Hillary had been appointed, and that's a plain fact.

As usual I find myself in complete agreement with you. Trump is certainly well short of being a libertarian and he is a copsucker, but there is a ton good from him as well. One only has to be willing to see the positive.

Anti Federalist
08-16-2018, 09:12 PM
It is indicative of someone who either was never on the side of liberty to begin with, now or in the past, but has chosen to attach themselves to liberty groups under a different motivation, such as careerism or virtue signaling. As with the GOP and Dem parties, the liberty side consulting class has clearly diverged from the base.

Nah, I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon.

I've had more than a couple of people call me "enemy of freedom", "racist", "sexist", anti liberty and so on because of nothing more than adjusting my outlook based on current factual realities.

Capt. USA is no big government statist.

If he doesn't want to acknowledge this progress, for whatever reason, that's his right.

LibertyEagle
08-16-2018, 11:33 PM
Sorry, guys - this article is right. Look around in here. Just because you have been conned into the Trump bandwagon doesn't mean "most" of us have.

Most of us have abandoned this place and returned to apathy. That's the fact.

Hell, I almost would have preferred a Hillary win at this point. At least then, we'd be united in opposition to the growing State. But alas, many of you are now cheering for it. If you can't see what Trump has done to the Ron Paul R3VOLution, then you are indeed blind.

Admittedly, Trump has done some good things, but the damage done to the principles of true liberty will probably never be repaired in my lifetime.

Oh BULLSHIT. :rolleyes: Trump didn't do one damn thing to the Ron Paul Revolution and the Revolution was never made up of people sitting on their asses bitching and moaning on an internet forum.

Trump isn't one of THEM and he's proven himself open to good advice; like the advice he accepts from Rand. Too bad when Trump was asking for recommendations for Cabinet positions that some of the holy ones at the top of this movement couldn't come off their high horse and give them to him. Instead of sitting back and pontificating about how bad his choices were after the fact.

LibertyEagle
08-16-2018, 11:39 PM
The R3volution produced a lot of fruit, but sadly it failed to reach its full potential largely due to failed leadership at the top.

Interesting. Because I remember how the majority claimed that no leadership was wanted or needed. lol

milgram
08-17-2018, 12:03 AM
1029875731596300288
1030300691166896128

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 05:44 AM
Trump has cut regulation, he has done his level best to slap down the EPA (the alphabet soup agency I am convinced is the single biggest threat to liberty), he has made former trading "partners" take notice that trade deals are no longer going to be one sided globalist affairs, he has done his level best to repeal Obamacare, providing EO relief when the establishment GOP sluts refused, in spite of his bluster he has stood by the second amendment, he is doing his level best to appoint constitutionalist judges throughout the federal judiciary, he has made peace overtures to NK and to Russia, thereby averting war that the establishment, represented by Hillary, wanted so badly...just to name a few things off the top of my head.

I'm not cheering him on, I'm giving credit where it's due.

As a whole, from a freedom perspective, we are better off, factually.

To think Hillary would have done any of that is irrational.Ok, hang on a second. I give credit where credit is due. Cutting regulations is a big positive - but then he INCREASED regulations in other areas. New artificial trade barriers imposed by government are regulations AND he supports cronyist subsidization. He cut income taxes. Fantastic! But then he increased spending! As Ron Paul has always said: SPENDING IS THE REAL TAX! Cutting taxes while increasing spending just shifts the burden. You'll see that in the future, even if you want to ignore it now. You thinking he is averting war??!!!! Holy shyte! He's boosting the military more than ever before! He's also dropping bombs at an increased rate. He's engaging with foes which is a huge positive, but let's not be naïve - he's still working the neocon angle of strategically plotting out the chessboard - he's just using a different strategy. Globalism?? The term, "Globalism" is completely misconstrued. The liberty movement used to be FOR global trade and against global government. Trade globally, govern locally. This "MAGA" stuff with trade is the exact opposite.

I gave the same credit to Obama. Obama initiated several criminal justice reforms and began investigations of police misconduct. Sure, it was to mixed results, but we're giving credit here where it is due. Obama cut the ridiculous space program and allowed privatization. He commuted the sentence of whistle-blower Private Manning. He was pretty good on individual rights for gays (even though he acted as if government was granting those rights instead of protecting them). His administration was comparatively lax on enforcing federal drug laws and many states were able to turn things around towards liberty during his terms. Even on guns, Obama repealed the law that prevented people from carrying in national parks and another that prevented people from carrying on Amtrak trains.


But does that mean he was a positive for liberty??!! Hell no! Far from it! You may prefer the right boot to the left one, but the State is still growing! And it's growing FASTER than ever! Would Hillary have done that? Sure she would have liked to, but with a Republican congress, she would have faced tough opposition. And the liberty movement would be united in that opposition. Instead, we have many of you getting distracted by the "show". Yeah, it's entertaining, but the State is still growing and liberty is shrinking. The power of the Executive branch is expanding while local governance is diminishing.

Just like with Obama, let's give credit where it's due, but let's not lose sight of the authoritarian at the helm. Our opposition to the State is fracturing because of some stupid cult of personality. I know you can recognize the hypocrisy here. If the left boot was doing this same stuff, you'd all be with us. Ron Paul is special in that he is only loyal to the principles of liberty - which is why he still shares our opposition to the current administration.

The man who gives you pennies from his right hand while stealing dollars from his left is no better than the man who gives you pennies from his left and steals dollars from your right. The areas where you think Trump is benefitting the cause of liberty are miniscule compared to the areas where he's destroying the cause. I'm just being consistent.

Anti Federalist
08-17-2018, 06:14 AM
The man who gives you pennies from his right hand while stealing dollars from his left is no better than the man who gives you pennies from his left and steals dollars from your right. The areas where you think Trump is benefitting the cause of liberty are miniscule compared to the areas where he's destroying the cause. I'm just being consistent.

I'm not seeing it that way.

Two steps forward, one back.

YMMV.

Anti Federalist
08-17-2018, 06:20 AM
Globalism?? The term, "Globalism" is completely misconstrued. The liberty movement used to be FOR global trade and against global government. Trade globally, govern locally.

I have always been opposed to global trade agreements, managed trade, and have been in favor of tariffs and excises as the only constitutionally permitted form of taxation the fedgov can collect.

An "America First" trade policy...MAGA if you insist.

You can see my posts going back ten years on that.

And, gee, guess, what?

It sure seems to be working.

Schifference
08-17-2018, 06:29 AM
Rand Paul timidly apologized for shushing a reporter where Donald Trump would have embellished that opportunity to make himself a dominant household name.

Schifference
08-17-2018, 06:32 AM
As usual I find myself in complete agreement with you. Trump is certainly well short of being a libertarian and he is a copsucker, but there is a ton good from him as well. One only has to be willing to see the positive.

Trump is your best friend and you are the greatest until he is not and you are not. Copsucker today, Copblocker tomorrow? It is anybody's guess.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 06:36 AM
I have always been opposed to global trade agreements, managed trade, and have been in favor of tariffs and excises as the only constitutionally permitted form of taxation the fedgov can collect.

An "America First" trade policy...MAGA if you insist.

You can see my posts going back ten years on that.

And, gee, guess, what?

It sure seems to be working.

I am also against managed trade. But do you not see that that is exactly what Trump is doing? He just wants it to be managed differently.

Ron Paul (and myself) is for lowering all of our tariffs regardless of what other countries may do. No need for any government "trade deals" - even if they're "MAGA deals". And it's working?? I guess that depends on which industry you ask. Governments LOVE picking winners and losers. Tariffs and excise taxes should be very low and evenly applied across industries. We should be against politicians using their power to curry political favor. It's not their power to wield.

"Trade globally" means that individuals can trade with anyone that suits their needs without interference from governments. It does NOT mean global trade agreements between governments. And since "Govern locally" means just that, the only government we should be concerned with is our own.

Matt Collins
08-17-2018, 10:23 AM
Interesting. Because I remember how the majority claimed that no leadership was wanted or needed. lol
Good to see you back around here...


Anyway, to the point at hand, yes even the pro liberty crowd are humans, and humans need leadership whether they want to admit it or not.

LibertyEagle
08-17-2018, 10:50 AM
Good to see you back around here...

Anyway, to the point at hand, yes even the pro liberty crowd are humans, and humans need leadership whether they want to admit it or not.

The point was Matt, that they won't take it. Have you forgotten how pseudo campaign literature was made by 2 guys in Florida and money was gathered from everywhere to send out what these two guys thought should be sent to every household in certain states? Everything but the kitchen sink was in there, rather than the targeted marketing that is known to work, links to 911 crapola, ... ugh.. :rolleyes: No, we couldn't let the campaign do their own literature, these two guys knew better. :rolleyes: Remember the coffin on the front of one of them that just about alienated the military standing up for Ron in Iowa?

Then there was the Campaign for Liberty. Not perfect, no, but instead of seeing how it could be helped, I remember the onslaught here denouncing every damn thing they did.

That's just two examples. I'm sure you know of a hundred more, just like I do.

LibertyEagle
08-17-2018, 10:55 AM
I am also against managed trade. But do you not see that that is exactly what Trump is doing? He just wants it to be managed differently.

Ron Paul (and myself) is for lowering all of our tariffs regardless of what other countries may do. No need for any government "trade deals" - even if they're "MAGA deals". And it's working?? I guess that depends on which industry you ask. Governments LOVE picking winners and losers. Tariffs and excise taxes should be very low and evenly applied across industries. We should be against politicians using their power to curry political favor. It's not their power to wield.

"Trade globally" means that individuals can trade with anyone that suits their needs without interference from governments. It does NOT mean global trade agreements between governments. And since "Govern locally" means just that, the only government we should be concerned with is our own.

You know, I don't know if what Trump is doing will work either. No one wants tariffs. He wants the trade agreements changed. They don't want to. Thus, the tariffs until they do. Trump wants bilateral trade agreements, rather than multilateral. Good for him!! About damn time.

EBounding
08-17-2018, 11:00 AM
You know, I don't know if what Trump is doing will work either. No one wants tariffs. He wants the trade agreements changed. They don't want to. Thus, the tariffs until they do. Trump wants bilateral trade agreements, rather than multilateral. Good for him!! About damn time.

I'm open to changing my perspective on tariffs if it actually yields a better long-term result. But at what point does it become a bad idea if no one is willing to negotiate? 2 years? 5 years? 20 years?

LibertyEagle
08-17-2018, 11:05 AM
I'm open to changing my perspective on tariffs if it actually yields a better long-term result. But at what point does it become a bad idea if no one is willing to negotiate? 2 years? 5 years? 20 years?

Honestly, I don't know a number. I'm not in favor of substantial tariffs. What I am interested in though, is getting out of these rotten trade agreements. Don't know if tariffs will work in getting us there, or not.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 11:40 AM
Honestly, I don't know a number. I'm not in favor of substantial tariffs. What I am interested in though, is getting out of these rotten trade agreements. Don't know if tariffs will work in getting us there, or not.

Same old schtick. Whatever you hope to gain by this, you cannot call it a liberty-oriented approach. I've never seen the "use more government to get less government" approach ever work. Can you give us an example where it has?

LibertyEagle
08-17-2018, 11:52 AM
Same old schtick. Whatever you hope to gain by this, you cannot call it a liberty-oriented approach. I've never seen the "use more government to get less government" approach ever work. Can you give us an example where it has?

Fair enough. Please tell us your workable plan to get us out of the multilateral trade deals we are currently in.

Anti Federalist
08-17-2018, 12:03 PM
Same old schtick. Whatever you hope to gain by this, you cannot call it a liberty-oriented approach. I've never seen the "use more government to get less government" approach ever work. Can you give us an example where it has?

See that's just it...it is not using more government.

Ideally this is the proposal: you import into the US market? Pay xx percent on the product, commodity or service.

Done.

Supra national trade agreements lead to EU unions.

Right now I suffer under a warehouse full of edicts, mandates, rules and fatwas all decreed by a branch of the UN.

I have no representation, no say in any of these rules, no way in which to "redress my grievances" and no choice but to comply.

In the US mind you.

That's more government.

Cleaner44
08-17-2018, 12:47 PM
Trump is your best friend and you are the greatest until he is not and you are not. Copsucker today, Copblocker tomorrow? It is anybody's guess.

Your post doesn't really make sense to me. Maybe next time to can work on being more clear.

Trump isn't my friend at all, but I would like to have billionaire friends.

I am the greatest and always have been!

Just to be clear about my feelings on Trump, I appreciate the many positive things that are happening as a result of him being President. His positives outweigh his negatives as far as I am concerned. I could go on and on about what those positives are for me, but does anyone really care?

Schifference
08-17-2018, 12:51 PM
Your post doesn't really make sense to me. Maybe next time to can work on being more clear.

Trump isn't my friend at all, but I would like to have billionaire friends.

I am the greatest and always have been!

Just to be clear about my feelings on Trump, I appreciate the many positive things that are happening as a result of him being President. His positives outweigh his negatives as far as I am concerned. I could go on and on about what those positives are for me, but does anyone really care?

Trump always says everyone is the greatest until he changes his mind. Trump is for it until he is against it. No that Trump is "your best friend."

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 01:02 PM
See that's just it...it is not using more government.

Ideally this is the proposal: you import into the US market? Pay xx percent on the product, commodity or service.

Done.

Except that's not how it works. This is the real proposal: You, Mr. Consumer, want to buy a product, commodity or service from a country on the authoritarian's naughty list? You have to pay more because we've put more government in the way.

No matter which way you cut it, it's more government interference in the trade between two individuals.

Some seem to think that this "more government" will eventually lead to less government. I don't think that's ever happened. More likely, it will just be a shift in the favored cronyist industries.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 03:27 PM
Except that's not how it works. This is the real proposal: You, Mr. Consumer, want to buy a product, commodity or service from a country on the authoritarian's naughty list? You have to pay more because we've put more government in the way.

No matter which way you cut it, it's more government interference in the trade between two individuals.

Some seem to think that this "more government" will eventually lead to less government. I don't think that's ever happened. More likely, it will just be a shift in the favored cronyist industries.

There is already government involvement in trade and it is used to destroy our economy, Trump is defending America and trying to reduce government involvement in the end.

timosman
08-17-2018, 03:28 PM
Rand Paul timidly apologized for shushing a reporter where Donald Trump would have embellished that opportunity to make himself a dominant household name.

That was the end of his campaign. :tears:

timosman
08-17-2018, 03:29 PM
Trump always says everyone is the greatest until he changes his mind. Trump is for it until he is against it. No that Trump is "your best friend."

He knows how to work with people.

timosman
08-17-2018, 03:32 PM
The point was Matt, that they won't take it. Have you forgotten how pseudo campaign literature was made by 2 guys in Florida and money was gathered from everywhere to send out what these two guys thought should be sent to every household in certain states? Everything but the kitchen sink was in there, rather than the targeted marketing that is known to work, links to 911 crapola, ... ugh.. :rolleyes: No, we couldn't let the campaign do their own literature, these two guys knew better. :rolleyes: Remember the coffin on the front of one of them that just about alienated the military standing up for Ron in Iowa?

Then there was the Campaign for Liberty. Not perfect, no, but instead of seeing how it could be helped, I remember the onslaught here denouncing every damn thing they did.

That's just two examples. I'm sure you know of a hundred more, just like I do.

Why couldn't the campaign handle these? :confused:

thoughtomator
08-17-2018, 03:43 PM
Your post doesn't really make sense to me. Maybe next time to can work on being more clear.

Trump isn't my friend at all, but I would like to have billionaire friends.

I am the greatest and always have been!

Just to be clear about my feelings on Trump, I appreciate the many positive things that are happening as a result of him being President. His positives outweigh his negatives as far as I am concerned. I could go on and on about what those positives are for me, but does anyone really care?

Sadly, not everyone is more concerned about outcomes than ego.

specsaregood
08-17-2018, 03:43 PM
Except that's not how it works. This is the real proposal: You, Mr. Consumer, want to buy a product, commodity or service from a country on the authoritarian's naughty list? You have to pay more because we've put more government in the way.

No matter which way you cut it, it's more government interference in the trade between two individuals.

Some seem to think that this "more government" will eventually lead to less government. I don't think that's ever happened. More likely, it will just be a shift in the favored cronyist industries.

I'm pretty sure that in nearly every instance of the tariffs trump wants, he has said he would drop all tariffs if the other country does the same for the us. in that his real goal is.true free trade. Not one sided free trade.

RJB
08-17-2018, 04:01 PM
Trump always says everyone is the greatest until he changes his mind. Trump is for it until he is against it. No that Trump is "your best friend."
I notice that Trump has no words for "mediocre," "alright," or "not bad."

Everything falls either under, "greatest," "fantastic," "outstanding," etc. Or "worst ever," "disaster" etc.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 04:12 PM
There is already government involvement in trade and it is used to destroy our economy, Trump is defending America and trying to reduce government involvement in the end.

https://www.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/mp/designs/11842588,width=178,height=178/derp.png

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 04:15 PM
I'm pretty sure that in nearly every instance of the tariffs trump wants, he has said he would drop all tariffs if the other country does the same for the us. in that his real goal is.true free trade. Not one sided free trade.

Funny - all I hear from him is Bernie Sanders style protectionism talk.

(There is no such thing as one-sided free trade, btw. Unless you're talking about governments getting their cut. "Free" trade means both parties are better off by the trade or it doesn't happen. Sad that I have to remind people of this here.)

dannno
08-17-2018, 04:16 PM
https://www.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/mp/designs/11842588,width=178,height=178/derp.png

That's not an argument.

phill4paul
08-17-2018, 04:18 PM
Funny - all I hear from him is Bernie Sanders style protectionism talk.

(There is no such thing as one-sided free trade, btw. Unless you're talking about governments getting their cut. "Free" trade means both parties are better off by the trade or it doesn't happen. Sad that I have to remind people of this here.)

Aherm.


Fair enough. Please tell us your workable plan to get us out of the multilateral trade deals we are currently in.

dannno
08-17-2018, 04:18 PM
Funny - all I hear from him is Bernie Sanders style protectionism talk.

Uh, no, Bernie would be doing it so we could pay for healthcare or something.

Trump is doing it because our economy is headed off a cliff and he needs to change our trade policies - he has no leverage, so he is instituting tariffs so he has leverage to negotiate trade policies so we end up with more fair trade policies.. and ultimately lower tariffs on both sides.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 04:21 PM
https://www.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/mp/designs/11842588,width=178,height=178/derp.png


https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. 3DxpqipxUzmUMmfEfiyT1gHaFj%26pid%3D15.1&f=1

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 04:22 PM
Funny - all I hear from him is Bernie Sanders style protectionism talk.
This doesn't help: :seenoevil::hearnoevil:




(There is no such thing as one-sided free trade, btw. Unless you're talking about governments getting their cut. "Free" trade means both parties are better off by the trade or it doesn't happen. Sad that I have to remind people of this here.)
You are right, what we have now is NOT free trade, what DJTvsg wants IS.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 04:23 PM
Aherm.

He doesn't have one.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 04:33 PM
Aherm.

No central planning. Lower all tariffs to an evenly low level. Regardless of what other countries do. We can do that unilaterally and it doesn’t take a managed deal. Managed economies are bad mkay.

phill4paul
08-17-2018, 04:36 PM
No central planning. Lower all tariffs to an evenly low level. Regardless of what other countries do. We can do that unilaterally and it doesn’t take a managed deal. Managed economies are bad mkay.

Try again. Pro-tip: The key to this conundrum is the phrase "workable plan."

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 04:39 PM
No central planning. Lower all tariffs to an evenly low level. Regardless of what other countries do. We can do that unilaterally and it doesn’t take a managed deal. Managed economies are bad mkay.

That is like proposing that wars can be ended by burning our arms and taking a national vow of pacifism or that we can have a free country by allowing in millions of socialists and giving them citizenship and the right to vote.

Trade will still suffer from government intervention that way, all of it from hostile foreign governments intent on destroying our economy and reducing us to dependence on foreign trade for our necessities so they can blackmail us into submission to world government.

dannno
08-17-2018, 04:41 PM
Lower all tariffs to an evenly low level. Regardless of what other countries do.

That's what we had before for decades and it didn't work. The President would say, "Hey, can you guys lower your tariffs on us? Pretty please?" and they would just say, "ehhhh. no thanks.."

Now Trump has leverage.

They will lower tariffs or face the consequences.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 04:42 PM
Trade will still suffer from government intervention that way, all of it from hostile foreign governments intent on destroying our economy and reducing us to dependence on foreign trade for our necessities so they can blackmail us into submission to world government.

Total anti-liberty hogwash. That’s typical neocon fearmongering. Ah yes, freedom is so scary! We need a big government to protect us from our own decisions.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 04:45 PM
That's what we had before for decades and it didn't work. The President would say, "Hey, can you guys lower your tariffs on us? Pretty please?" and they would just say, "ehhhh. no thanks.."

Now Trump has leverage.

They will lower tariffs or face the consequences.

So what?! It’s not our job to govern other countries. If they want our business, they’ll lower their tariffs to a point where it’s beneficila to trade. God damn. You guys want to plan the whole world, now!

Listen to Ron Paul on this subject.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 04:47 PM
Total anti-liberty hogwash. That’s typical neocon fearmongering. Ah yes, freedom is so scary! We need a big government to protect us from our own decisions.
Total fantasyland delusion, the elite have openly discussed using trade dependency to force countries to submit to world government and the EU is an example of how the tactic is used.

dannno
08-17-2018, 04:47 PM
So what?! It’s not our job to govern other countries. If they want our business, they’ll lower their tariffs to a point where it’s beneficila to trade. God damn. You guys want to plan the whole world, now!

Listen to Ron Paul on this subject.

There are other policies in place like monetary policy that allow them to get away with it. Trump isn't going to change that, probably couldn't if he wanted to.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 04:50 PM
Try again. Pro-tip: The key to this conundrum is the phrase "workable plan."


This is a workable plan. We would not violate any existing trade agreements except on the governance part. Our tariffs would stay in line or lower. As for the control... We’d have to unwind our entanglements slowly, but we could choose not to enforce. We wouldn’t be in violation.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 04:51 PM
So what?! It’s not our job to govern other countries.
We are not trying to govern them, we are negotiating with them.



If they want our business, they’ll lower their tariffs to a point where it’s beneficila to trade.
We let them have our business without it, they get all the benefits of a trade war without most of the disadvantages.


God damn. You guys want to plan the whole world, now!
Nope, we just want to defend ourselves, as you said: "If they want our business, they’ll lower their tariffs to a point where it’s beneficial to trade."


Listen to Ron Paul on this subject.
Ron is wrong on this subject.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 04:53 PM
This is a workable plan. We would not violate any existing trade agreements except on the governance part. Our tariffs would stay in line or lower. As for the control... We’d have to unwind our entanglements slowly, but we could choose not to enforce. We wouldn’t be in violation.

Surrender is NOT a workable plan, it is a recipe for disaster.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 04:57 PM
And there you have it. Here. In RPF. We have the Trumpcuckers telling us Ron Paul is wrong.

And you wonder if the OP is accurate?! As you can see by this thread, most of the defenders of the principles of liberty have vacated the premises. Congrats. Trump killed the liberty movement. Proof positive.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 04:59 PM
Ron is wrong on this subject.

Let that sink in, folks.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 05:02 PM
And there you have it. Here. In RPF. We have the Trumpcuckers telling us Ron Paul is wrong.

And you wonder if the OP is accurate?! As you can see by this thread, most of the defenders of the principles of liberty have vacated the premises. Congrats. Trump killed the liberty movement. Proof positive.


Let that sink in, folks.

Truth is greater than one man no matter how great he is, you need to stop letting other people do your thinking for you.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 05:02 PM
Trump is right. Ron is wrong. Up is down. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 05:04 PM
And there you have it. Here. In RPF. We have the Trumpcuckers telling us Ron Paul is wrong.

And you wonder if the OP is accurate?! As you can see by this thread, most of the defenders of the principles of liberty have vacated the premises. Congrats. Trump killed the liberty movement. Proof positive.
Those of us who support defensive tariffs did so back when Ron was running and before Trump ever suggested he would run.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 05:05 PM
Trump is right. Ron is wrong. Up is down. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day, you disagree with Ron on open borders, does that make you a traitor to your demigod?

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 05:06 PM
Truth is greater than one man no matter how great he is, you need to stop letting other people do your thinking for you.

I understand the principles of liberty. So does Ron Paul. So did Bastiat. Not surprising we reach the same conclusions.

If you are ignorant of those principles, don’t blame it on a cult of personality. That’s just projection.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 05:08 PM
I understand the principles of liberty. So does Ron Paul. So did Bastiat. Not surprising we reach the same conclusions.

If you are ignorant of those principles, don’t blame it on a cult of personality. That’s just projection.
You fail to see the flaws of the theory when it is applied in a world full of hostile actors and you constantly appeal to authority, you are the ignorant one.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 05:10 PM
Even a broken clock is right twice a day, you disagree with Ron on open borders, does that make you a traitor to your demigod?

I oppose your statism so that makes me an open borders anarchist. :rolleyes:

You said that. Not me.

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 05:12 PM
I oppose your statism so that makes me an open borders anarchist. :rolleyes:

You said that. Not me.

He says a lot of shit, mostly it's shit.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 05:13 PM
I oppose your statism so that makes me an open borders anarchist. :rolleyes:

You said that. Not me.
You constantly argue for wide open borders and completely free movement of labor, you don't get to pretend that Ron agrees with that.

"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul (http://www.vdare.com/articles/ron-paul-i-believe-in-national-sovereignty)

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 05:14 PM
He says a lot of $#@!, mostly it's $#@!.

Yes, that is true of CaptUSA.

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 05:15 PM
Yes, that is true of CaptUSA.

Oh jeez, now it's I know you are but what am I? Uh, no, I was talking about you.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 05:19 PM
Oh jeez, now it's I know you are but what am I? Uh, no, I was talking about you.
Forgive me, for a moment I thought you grew a brain.

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 05:21 PM
Forgive me, for a moment I thought you grew a brain.

I finally figured out who you are!

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/296/morans.jpg

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 05:24 PM
I finally figured out who you are!

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/296/morans.jpg

I too have figured out your identity:

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sitcomsonline.com%2Fphotopost% 2Fdata%2F749%2Feb2.jpg&f=1

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 05:36 PM
You constantly argue for wide open borders

Time to put up or shut up. Show me. If I do it constantly, it should be easy. Otherwise, you mistake opposition to your statism as advocating open borders. Typical statist response - “disagree with me and you must be an anarchist”

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 05:39 PM
Time to put up or shut up. Show me. If I do it constantly, it should be easy. Otherwise, you mistake opposition to your statism as advocating open borders. Typical statist response - “disagree with me and you must be an anarchist”

And we all know those dirty anarchists are just antifa boys living in their mom's basement.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 06:04 PM
Time to put up or shut up. Show me. If I do it constantly, it should be easy. Otherwise, you mistake opposition to your statism as advocating open borders. Typical statist response - “disagree with me and you must be an anarchist”


Oh, so it's only illegal immigration that you have a problem with... So, we should just make it much, much easier to immigrate legally, then, right? I mean, that'd solve your problem with it.


I'm saying it's pretty damned ironic for someone who purportedly believes in liberty to want to have agents of the government forcibly violate the liberty of people because you think THEY are the ones who don't believe in liberty!

If you really cared about the "vast hordes of people who don't believe in liberty", you wouldn't have to look outside the borders - they are all around you. They are you!


It's a strange distinction to draw between the undesirables born within the government's lines and those born outside them.

Are we able to get these same tests for people born here and export them if they fail?? Perhaps America will finally fix our trade deficit!


Call it what you want... I'd have more than a little problem if the federal government was on my property without my consent whether they called it "quartering" or "patrolling". You still have the same problem with your premise and it is decisively anti-liberty.

But forget all that... The most basic question one has to ask is who you fear more? Are you more concerned about a foreign invasion or transgressions by your own government? That's an easy one for me. I've never been directly harmed by an immigrant, but your government violates the liberty of its citizens regularly all in the name of "security".


I could find more but this is enough, it is really foolish of you to pretend you aren't part of the open borders mafia around here.

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 06:07 PM
I could find more but this is enough, it is really foolish of you to pretend you aren't part of the open borders mafia around here.

Mafia? Lol. So refute one post of his.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 06:13 PM
Mafia? Lol. So refute one post of his.

I did, if you want to re-fight old battles follow the quote links, I have better things to do.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 06:18 PM
I could find more but this is enough, it is really foolish of you to pretend you aren't part of the open borders mafia around here.

Sorry, where did I advocate open borders????!! Ha! You proved my point. You posted me shutting down your statism several times.

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 06:19 PM
I did, if you want to re-fight old battles follow the quote links, I have better things to do.

No you don't. If I did you would sit here for hours responding. Weeks if necessary. And you could be proven wrong a hundred times and you would still keep going.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 06:25 PM
Sorry, where did I advocate open borders????!! Ha! You proved my point. You posted me shutting down your statism several times.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by CaptUSA http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6647925#post6647925)

Oh, so it's only illegal immigration that you have a problem with... So, we should just make it much, much easier to immigrate legally, then, right? I mean, that'd solve your problem with it.


Here your solution to the problem was to just let everyone come here so that there would be no "illegal immigration".


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by CaptUSA http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6648064#post6648064)

I'm saying it's pretty damned ironic for someone who purportedly believes in liberty to want to have agents of the government forcibly violate the liberty of people because you think THEY are the ones who don't believe in liberty!

If you really cared about the "vast hordes of people who don't believe in liberty", you wouldn't have to look outside the borders - they are all around you. They are you!


Here you opposed any immigration enforcement and characterized it as "violating the liberty" of the targeted illegals.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by CaptUSA http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6655187#post6655187)

It's a strange distinction to draw between the undesirables born within the government's lines and those born outside them.

Are we able to get these same tests for people born here and export them if they fail?? Perhaps America will finally fix our trade deficit!


Here you denied the need to limit the number of people who are allowed to come here and claimed that there is no difference between those born in the country and foreigners.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by CaptUSA http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6643310#post6643310)

Call it what you want... I'd have more than a little problem if the federal government was on my property without my consent whether they called it "quartering" or "patrolling". You still have the same problem with your premise and it is decisively anti-liberty.

But forget all that... The most basic question one has to ask is who you fear more? Are you more concerned about a foreign invasion or transgressions by your own government? That's an easy one for me. I've never been directly harmed by an immigrant, but your government violates the liberty of its citizens regularly all in the name of "security".


Here you sought to prevent the government from patrolling the border which would definitely give anyone and everyone who wanted to the ability to cross it at will, that is the very definition of open borders.


Thanks for playing, occasionally I enjoy totally slaughtering an opponent who is completely out of his league.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 06:26 PM
No you don't. If I did you would sit here for hours responding. Weeks if necessary. And you could be proven wrong a hundred times and you would still keep going.

:rolleyes:

dannno
08-17-2018, 06:31 PM
No you don't. If I did you would sit here for hours responding. Weeks if necessary. And you could be proven wrong a hundred times and you would still keep going.

What's happening is Swordsmyth and others like me are contending that not enforcing immigration leads to a lot more rights violations than the rights violations being violated by enforcing immigration. You and CaptUSA are contending that enforcing immigration laws exists in a vacuum and so it is wrong as it is a rights violation. We are contending that the rights violations that would happen under an open borders, socialist model will lead to rights violations that you are complaining about, compounded at least 100 fold, maybe a million fold.

CCTelander
08-17-2018, 06:36 PM
And we all know those dirty anarchists are just antifa boys living in their mom's basement.


I know, right?

How can you trust those filthy anarchists anyway? Hell, they refuse to advocate that others be violently dominated in order to provide for "services" that they (the anarchists) deem important. And even worse, they have the temerity, the unmitigated gall to demand that those others afford them the same courtesy! It's downright unnatural.

CaptUSA
08-17-2018, 06:40 PM
Here your solution to the problem was to just let everyone come here so that there would be no "illegal immigration".


Here you opposed any immigration enforcement and characterized it as "violating the liberty" of the targeted illegals.


Here you denied the need to limit the number of people who are allowed to come here and claimed that there is no difference between those born in the country and foreigners.


Here you sought to prevent the government from patrolling the border which would definitely give anyone and everyone who wanted to the ability to cross it at will, that is the very definition of open borders.


Thanks for playing, occasionally I enjoy totally slaughtering an opponent who is completely out of his league.

Apparently reading comprehension is not for you. Lol.

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 06:40 PM
What's happening is Swordsmyth and others like me are contending that not enforcing immigration leads to a lot more rights violations than the rights violations being violated by enforcing immigration. You and CaptUSA are contending that enforcing immigration laws exists in a vacuum and so it is wrong as it is a rights violation. We are contending that the rights violations that would happen under an open borders, socialist model will lead to rights violations that you are complaining about, compounded at least 100 fold, maybe a million fold.

Wow, never heard that argument before dannno, thank you!

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 06:42 PM
Here your solution to the problem was to just let everyone come here so that there would be no "illegal immigration".


Here you opposed any immigration enforcement and characterized it as "violating the liberty" of the targeted illegals.


Here you denied the need to limit the number of people who are allowed to come here and claimed that there is no difference between those born in the country and foreigners.


Here you sought to prevent the government from patrolling the border which would definitely give anyone and everyone who wanted to the ability to cross it at will, that is the very definition of open borders.


Thanks for playing, occasionally I enjoy totally slaughtering an opponent who is completely out of his league.

Ok, thanks for the belly laugh.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 06:43 PM
Apparently reading comprehension is not for you. Lol.

Apparently you just lie when confronted with your own positions.

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 06:43 PM
Apparently reading comprehension is not for you. Lol.

He's too busy typing, thinking is for losers.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 06:44 PM
Ok, thanks for the belly laugh.

Small minds often laugh at things they can't comprehend.

Swordsmyth
08-17-2018, 06:45 PM
He's too busy typing, thinking is for losers.

Projection.

Origanalist
08-17-2018, 06:48 PM
Projection.

https://l7world.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/1st-Appearance-of-the-Bat-Signal.jpg

dannno
08-17-2018, 07:13 PM
Wow, never heard that argument before dannno, thank you!

So what is your argument against that?

You would prefer the outcome where rights violations increase by 100 or a million fold?

Cleaner44
08-17-2018, 08:34 PM
https://www.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/mp/designs/11842588,width=178,height=178/derp.png

https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/1a93999/2147483647/crop/943x629%2B0%2B0/resize/1200x800%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F20%2Fc4%2 F7c6fb1424918a68a7604222ad257%2Fgettyimages-892914356.jpg

Aratus
08-17-2018, 08:47 PM
Sadly, an accurate write-up....

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/aug/14/ron-paul-revolution-falls-victim-frustration-donal/

Matt is correct. The article suggests that BHO and DJT encouraged a cult of personality around them.
We all know that Bernie and Hillary were basically on the same ideological page, but had two different
approaches to the concept idea of embezzling public funds, he was/is more honest than she is. Period.

Anti Federalist
08-17-2018, 10:00 PM
Except that's not how it works. This is the real proposal: You, Mr. Consumer, want to buy a product, commodity or service from a country on the authoritarian's naughty list? You have to pay more because we've put more government in the way.

No matter which way you cut it, it's more government interference in the trade between two individuals.

Some seem to think that this "more government" will eventually lead to less government. I don't think that's ever happened. More likely, it will just be a shift in the favored cronyist industries.

Yes, that's true, and I can easily avoid it.

I cannot avoid income taxes or massive corporate taxes.

Follow my idea and eliminate the cronyism.

20 percent on every import.

Anti Globalist
08-18-2018, 10:28 AM
So...any particular reason why Trump doesn't attempt to get in contact with Ron? Or are we expected to believe he is but he can't come out and say it because he runs the risk of getting assassinated? Which makes no sense because from what I can see, there's no way to kill Trump and get away with it. It makes sense when it comes to Kennedy, but back then the deep state wasn't mentioned by name in any capacity.

Swordsmyth
08-18-2018, 01:56 PM
So...any particular reason why Trump doesn't attempt to get in contact with Ron? Or are we expected to believe he is but he can't come out and say it because he runs the risk of getting assassinated? Which makes no sense because from what I can see, there's no way to kill Trump and get away with it. It makes sense when it comes to Kennedy, but back then the deep state wasn't mentioned by name in any capacity.

He talks to Rand, I'm sure Rand passes on anything Ron might want to say to him.

idiom
08-18-2018, 08:10 PM
The single biggest gripe about the USA that anyone had in NZ was the impending TPP. Fucking horrible treaty.

Trump killed it immediately when elected. Nobody in NZ is willing to credit him with saving our asses though.

Trump has also made it clear that there are zero consequences for a politician lying, a point way to many people were unclear on before.

Also, Dr. Paul ya half baked fuck witted excuse for a journo.

r3volution 3.0
08-19-2018, 06:03 PM
Victim? So far it's the best thing that has happened.. that may be a a little unfortunate, but it's not negative...

This shit isn't going to turn around over night.

...not sure if thinks that "libertarians" salivating over same ol' same ol' high spending, warmongering, police state, is good, or is trolling.

enhanced_deficit
11-04-2018, 06:15 PM
"victim" is the wrong word here, Ron Paul movement based on ideas has had widespread impact and Trump in some ways is benefactor/reaping fruits of a changed mindset from that groundwork. But RP campiagn is low heat long term simmer and Trump campaign is high heat short term flame in all likelyhood.

MAGA is a mixed bag, some good aspects especially on tactical levels in boldly combating media/opponents & standing one's ground in the the face of attacks ( not to be confused with genuine political courage that Ron Paul displayed back in 2007 when MAGA was busy funding Hillary and other liberal Democrats). But I'm afraid 4-8 years from now he'll be widely seen as 'Republicans' Obama" and transition from "conservatives' messiah" to an "opportunist self-serving politician".

Working Poor
11-04-2018, 08:17 PM
Sorry we are not victims. Our own strategies have made us what we are as a group. Our ideas have been co-opted. Maybe it's time to crank out some more ideas at least they might be woven into the narrative. I think Rand could have a good chance in 2024.

I wrote to Trump and was very surprised to receive a letter back from him that actually addressed my concerns. I don't know for certain who actually wrote the letter but it came on his letter head and had his signature. I guess my concerns are so common that it could have been a form letter sent out to people with my same concerns. I was encouraged to write again to express my view. None the less, I think he does want to be a president of the people in theory. I have never written to a President before. I have written to a few reps about the wars and got slapped in the face telling me they knew better than I did about what was going on.

In my letter I said to him I would like to see him implementing Ron's ideology of freedom. He did say in the letter that he wanted to preserve freedom. I don't know if he is doing that or not but, it does seem to me that we are on the edge of loosing more freedom..

shakey1
11-05-2018, 08:44 AM
Ron Paul has done much to grow the liberty movement. I believe he gave this a higher priority than becoming POTUS. His running for president helped him to get his message out to more people as a result.

PAF
11-05-2018, 09:22 AM
Trump is not using any opportunity whatsoever to warn the [ignorant] public about violations of our most basic rights. Rather, he is encouraging those violations. He may provide a bone here and there to appease the constituents who voted him in, but make no mistake, he is supporting a globalist agenda and the MIC.

MIC isn't only bombs in foreign countries. Technology evolves, and war at some point may be obsolete. Corporatists/lobbyists see a tremendous opportunity to sell their products - at the expense of tax payers and human freedom.

Trump promised Biometrics which will track everybody air, land and sea, a goal specifically stated by the UN to be fully implemented to every man, woman and child in the world by 2030.

Under Trump, TSA announced Biometric Identification will be implemented not only for international flights, but now DOMESTIC flights, with a road map to include busses, trains, cars, etc. nation-wide.

Facial Recognition, constant 24/7 surveillance provided free by Amazon to the city of Orlando, complete violation of the 4th and 5th Amendments - again, not a single peep from this commander in chief who swore an oath to the American people.

As president, Trump publicly announced raising the age to 21 to own a gun - and now states are doing it.

As president, Trump endorsed USMCA (NAFTA 2.0) which "forces" U.S. UNIONISM on Mexico, and demands all three countries to abide by the International Labour Organization (ILO) standards among other anti Free Trade initiatives. Remember this: RP warned of a North American Union.

As president, on September 20, 2018, President Donald Trump told attendees at a chiefs of police convention that he has instructed the Justice Department to work toward reinstating “Stop and Frisk”, violating Constitutional protections.

Conversations about interest rates, DEBT which continues to rise exponentially, border wall which I believe is very well orchestrated to further debt of the nation - all of the above will cost dearly more in frn's and loss of rights. If Trump was so worried about costs and cutting the American people a real break, he would alert the people of these gross violations of our Natural Rights and save billions upon billions effective immediately. But he doesn't.

Trump is a globalist. Make no mistake about it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?477303-Donald-Trump-On-The-Record

acptulsa
11-05-2018, 09:31 AM
Trump is a globalist. Make no mistake about it.



And all the real Ron Paul people--the ones who tried to make He Who Must Not Be Named known to the public--told all of you so back during the primaries when that Belligerent Talking Cheet-O was getting 100% of the MSM publicity.

Ender
11-05-2018, 10:17 AM
And all the real Ron Paul people--the ones who tried to make He Who Must Not Be Named known to the public--told all of you so back during the primaries when that Belligerent Talking Cheet-O was getting 100% of the MSM publicity.

Yep.

CCTelander
11-05-2018, 10:47 AM
Trump is not using any opportunity whatsoever to warn the [ignorant] public about violations of our most basic rights. Rather, he is encouraging those violations. He may provide a bone here and there to appease the constituents who voted him in, but make no mistake, he is supporting a globalist agenda and the MIC.

MIC isn't only bombs in foreign countries. Technology evolves, and war at some point may be obsolete. Corporatists/lobbyists see a tremendous opportunity to sell their products - at the expense of tax payers and human freedom.

Trump promised Biometrics which will track everybody air, land and sea, a goal specifically stated by the UN to be fully implemented to every man, woman and child in the world by 2030.

Under Trump, TSA announced Biometric Identification will be implemented not only for international flights, but now DOMESTIC flights, with a road map to include busses, trains, cars, etc. nation-wide.

Facial Recognition, constant 24/7 surveillance provided free by Amazon to the city of Orlando, complete violation of the 4th and 5th Amendments - again, not a single peep from this commander in chief who swore an oath to the American people.

As president, Trump publically announced raising the age to 21 to own a gun - and now states are doing it.

As president, Trump endorsed USMCA (NAFTA 2.0) which "forces" U.S. UNIONISM on Mexico, and demands all three countries to abide by the International Labour Organization (ILO) standards among other anti Free Trade initiatives. Remember this: RP warned of a North American Union.

As president, on September 20, 2018, President Donald Trump told attendees at a chiefs of police convention that he has instructed the Justice Department to work toward reinstating “Stop and Frisk”, violating Constitutional protections.

Conversations about interest rates, DEBT which continues to rise exponentially, border wall which I believe is very well orchestrated to further debt of the nation - all of the above will cost dearly more in frn's and loss of rights. If Trump was so worried about costs and cutting the American people a real break, he would alert the people of these gross violations of our Natural Rights and save billions upon billions effective immediately. But he doesn't.

Trump is a globalist. Make no mistake about it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?477303-Donald-Trump-On-The-Record


^^^^This^^^^

I've long held that the "good" things that Trump does (reducing regs, tax cuts, a handful of pardons, etc.) are really nothing more than the classic one step bacward in preparation for the two steps forward toward an ever expanding police/surveillance state at home and never-ending war abroad. Even if you're an immigration hawk, Trumps approach to the issue is already leading to ever increasing police/surveillance state measures. Economic "gains" brought about by some of those "good" actions are pretty worthless when you're tagged, catalogued and tracked in every aspect of your life, throughout everything you do. ETA: And can be denied those benefits with a few keystrokes.

acptulsa
11-05-2018, 11:13 AM
Economic "gains" brought about by some of those "good" actions are pretty worthless when you're tagged, catalogued and tracked in every aspect of your life, throughout everything you do.

Isn't funny how the most virulent--and most successful--attempt to silence dissent on this forum is being conducted in Trump's holy name?

CCTelander
11-05-2018, 11:18 AM
Isn't funny how the most virulent--and most successful--attempt to silence dissent on this forum is being conducted in Trump's holy name?


Trump uber alles my friend. He's the "God Emperor" don't you know?

Ender
11-05-2018, 11:38 AM
Isn't funny how the most virulent--and most successful--attempt to silence dissent on this forum is being conducted in Trump's holy name?

Indeed.

I've been called everything from a Muslim to a purist to a troll since the Trumpalumpa take-over. Before then I don't think I was ever called names and could usually carry on decent dialog with people, even when we disagreed.

acptulsa
11-05-2018, 11:56 AM
Indeed.

I've been called everything from a Muslim to a purist to a troll since the Trumpalumpa take-over. Before then I don't think I was ever called names and could usually carry on decent dialog with people, even when we disagreed.

Well, you know, sometimes you have to really work at stirring people up...


What kind of moron are you...



I get your idiotic attempt at making a point...


You are insane.


Your ravings aren't even worth a response, take them elsewhere.


The other idiot I was arguing with...

...before they defend themselves sharply enough that you can play the victim card.

CCTelander
11-05-2018, 12:00 PM
Well, you know, sometimes you have to really work at stirring people up...






...before they defend themselves sharply enough that you can play the victim card.


I wish I could +rep this. I really do. Excellent observation.

acptulsa
11-05-2018, 12:31 PM
https://www.thedailybell.com/all-articles/news-analysis/what-causes-a-normal-election-to-spiral-into-tribal-warfare/


In 1966, Gao Jianhua (who later changed his name to Gao Yuan) was 14 years old.

At the Yizhen Middle School near Beijing, China, he witnessed and participated in the birth of China’s “Cultural Revolution.” He later recorded his personal account in a book called Born Red: A Chronicle of the Cultural Revolution.

The leader of Communist China, Chairman Mao, warned the country that revisionists were threatening to erase all the progress made since the Communist Revolution which brought Mao to power.

It had been almost 20 years since the bloody revolution, and Mao wanted to reinvigorate the rebel spirit in the youth. He instructed students to root out any teachers who wove subtle anti-communist sentiments in their lessons.

Mao encouraged students to rebel against any mindless respect for entrenched authority, remnants, he said, of centuries of capitalist influence.

Students at Yizhen Middle School, like many others, quickly took up the task. They “exposed” capitalist intellectual teachers and paraded them around in dunce caps with insulting signs hung around their necks.


Teachers were beaten and harassed until they confessed to their crimes… most of which were, of course, false confessions to avoid further torture.

It only escalated from there.

What ensued puts Lord of the Flies to shame.

One teacher killed himself after being taken captive by students. Most teachers fled.

Soon the students were left entirely in charge of their school. Two factions quickly emerged, one calling themselves the East is Red Corps, and the other the Red Rebels.

One student was kidnapped by the East is Red Corps, and suffocated to death on a sock stuffed in his mouth.

A girl was found to be an East is Red spy among the Red Rebels. She was later cornered with other East is Red students in a building. She shouted from a window that she would rather die than surrender. Praising Chairman Mao, she jumped to her death.

Some Red Rebels died from an accidental explosion while making bombs.

Many were tortured, and another student died from his injuries at the hands of the East is Red Corps.

A female teacher refused to sign an affidavit lying about the cause of death. She was beaten and gang-raped by a group of students...

Look at the actual differences between the East is Red Corps and the Red Rebels. As the battle between them intensified it was hard to say what they were fighting for, except to assume power over the other group.

One strong or vicious act of one side called for a reprisal from the other, and any type of violence seemed totally justified. There could be no middle ground, nor any questioning of the rightness of their cause.

The tribe is always right. And to say otherwise is to betray it.
I write this on the eve of the 2018 midterm elections.

And like Mao handing down his orders to dispose of capitalist sympathizers, such have the leaders of each major US political party rallied their supporters.

This is the most important election of our lifetime, they say.

No middle ground. Violence is justified to get our way. Betray the tribe, and be considered an enemy.

Just like Mao, they have manufactured a crisis that did not previously exist.

The students had no violent factions before Mao’s encouragement. They had no serious problems with their teachers.

Is there any natural crisis occurring right now? Or has the political establishment whipped us into an artificial frenzy?

This isn’t just another boring election, they say. This is a battle for our future.

The students battled over who were the purest revolutionaries.

The voters now battle over who has the purest intentions for America.

Do the factions even know what they are fighting for anymore?

They are simply fighting for their tribe’s control over the government.

The battle of the factions at schools across China were “resolved” when Mao came to support one side or the other. In that sense, it very much did matter which side the students were on…

The government came down hard against the losing faction.

They had chosen wrong and found themselves aligned against the powerful Communist Party.

It won’t be a dictator that hands control to one faction or another in this election. It will be a simple majority. And those in the minority will suffer.

The winners will feel that it is their time to wield power, just as the students were happy to finally have the upper hand on their teachers.

If Mao didn’t have so much power, he could have never initiated such a violent crisis.

And if our government didn’t have so much power, it would hardly matter who wins the election.

Yet here we are, fighting for control of the government because each faction threatens to violently repress the other if they gain power.

It is a manufactured crisis. A crisis that only exists because political elites in the government and media have said so.

They decided that this election will spark the USA’s “Cultural Revolution.”

And anyone with sympathies from a bygone era will be punished.

Ender
11-05-2018, 01:01 PM
https://www.thedailybell.com/all-articles/news-analysis/what-causes-a-normal-election-to-spiral-into-tribal-warfare/

AMEN

CCTelander
11-05-2018, 01:02 PM
AMEN


Has a familiar ring to it, doesn't it?

CaptUSA
11-05-2018, 01:35 PM
And if our government didn’t have so much power, it would hardly matter who wins the election.

Exactly. And why it makes absolutely ZERO sense to give government more power, regardless of which party is wielding it. And why the whole red vs. blue fervor is a ridiculous con job. Sadly, people still fall for it.

CCTelander
11-05-2018, 01:39 PM
Exactly. And why it makes absolutely ZERO sense to give government more power, regardless of which party is wielding it. And why the whole red vs. blue fervor is a ridiculous con job. Sadly, people still fall for it.


Worse yet, even some of the best people still fall for it. One really needs to discipline one's focus to prevent that fact from becoming totally discouraging.

Swordsmyth
11-05-2018, 02:05 PM
Well, you know, sometimes you have to really work at stirring people up...









...before they defend themselves sharply enough that you can play the victim card.

You would know about that.

acptulsa
11-05-2018, 02:51 PM
You would know about that.

What he said:


Your ravings aren't even worth a response, take them elsewhere.