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Swordsmyth
07-19-2018, 10:20 PM
Immigrants coming to the United States would generally fail this new rewritten test if they had a medical condition and no source of subsidized health insurance. The test also places a premium on an applicant’s income and assets. Applicants must make at least 250 percent of the federal poverty guidelines, which, in 2018, means $30,350 for a one-person household and $62,750 for a four-person household.

The rewritten Trump test would treat perfectly employed individuals as “public charges” by expanding the test to include additional benefits working-class Americans have access to if they meet a certain threshold. That includes the earned income tax credit (EITC), Medicare, and Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)

The Trump test also focuses on whether the applicant would be a “public charge” by determining whether they have a medical condition with no form of health insurance, are currently receiving any government assistance, have recently received government assistance, or are currently not working or enrolled in school full-time. It gives the administration the authority to take into consideration any other factors “in the discretion of DHS,” essentially giving the government carte blanche to decide whether to pass or fail an applicant.
If an applicant “fails” a test, the administration could allow immigration officials to admit them to the country on the condition of a “public charge bond,” set at a minimum of $10,000.

More at: https://thinkprogress.org/trump-administration-immigrants-test-128ddf67348f/

oyarde
07-19-2018, 10:23 PM
I am all for it , especially if I get to pick some questions .

dannno
07-19-2018, 10:31 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4_-YldDHJU


2:08



That's right. It's time for your first fuckin test. Ya, you thought I didn't have a fuckin test in my class? Well fuck you I've got a test. Keep takin the motherfuckin thing until you get a hundred percent IN THE BITCH.

Zippyjuan
07-20-2018, 12:04 PM
Trump's grandfather and his mother would never have been allowed into the country by his guidelines. His grandfather was only 16, not accompanied by parents, and barely knew any English. His mother was also not accompanied by parents and came to join sisters already in the US. She turned 18 during the trip to the US. She was from Scotland and he was from Germany.

If the "Trump Rules" were in place back then, Trump himself would not be here.

Valli6
07-20-2018, 12:07 PM
Sorry, I now see you were referring specifically to Trump's guidlelines

Regardless, back then immigrants were entitled to absolutely no welfare or benefits of any kind, so it's an extremely different situation. You can't compare the two.


Trump's grandfather and his mother would never have been allowed into the country by his guidelines. His grandfather was only 16, not accompanied by parents, and barely knew any English. His mother was also not accompanied by parents and came to join sisters already in the US. She turned 18 during the trip to the US. She was from Scotland and he was from Germany.
You're wrong. My grandfather came here, unaccompanied at the age of 11.

Zippyjuan
07-20-2018, 12:14 PM
Sorry, I now see you were referring specifically to Trump's guidlelines

Regardless, back then immigrants were entitled to absolutely no welfare or benefits of any kind, so it's an extremely different situation. You can't compare the two.


You're wrong. My grandfather came here, unaccompanied at the age of 11.

Legal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits the first five years they are legally in the country (Welfare/ SNAP, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc). Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits.

Valli6
07-20-2018, 12:20 PM
Legal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits the first five years they are legally in the country (Welfare/ SNAP, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc). Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits.
They are entitled to plenty of other things, place to stay, clothing, medical care, meals, entertainment, baby-sitting and - for cryin-out-loud - FREE LAWYERS! And that's just the first day they arrive!

CaptUSA
07-20-2018, 12:49 PM
It's a strange distinction to draw between the undesirables born within the government's lines and those born outside them.

Are we able to get these same tests for people born here and export them if they fail?? Perhaps America will finally fix our trade deficit!

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 01:58 PM
Trump's grandfather and his mother would never have been allowed into the country by his guidelines. His grandfather was only 16, not accompanied by parents, and barely knew any English. His mother was also not accompanied by parents and came to join sisters already in the US. She turned 18 during the trip to the US. She was from Scotland and he was from Germany.

If the "Trump Rules" were in place back then, Trump himself would not be here.

That is irrelevant.

Times change.

Even if conditions hadn't changed we can't change the past, if they were wrong back then we can't do anything about it now.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 02:00 PM
Legal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits the first five years they are legally in the country (Welfare/ SNAP, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc).
Why should we give them any after five years zip?



Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits.
They cheat and get them immediately and leftist government workers help them to do it.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 02:02 PM
It's a strange distinction to draw between the undesirables born within the government's lines and those born outside them.

Are we able to get these same tests for people born here and export them if they fail?? Perhaps America will finally fix our trade deficit!
Citizens have a right to be here and foreigners don't, we can't deport undesirable citizens but we can avoid letting in undesirable foreigners who will make our own problems worse.

dannno
07-20-2018, 02:07 PM
Legal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits the first five years they are legally in the country (Welfare/ SNAP, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc). Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5NdiSaWcAA0pjV.jpg


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Uw-bZ2W_jGU/maxresdefault.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3jNk3oW8AAY4F8.jpg


https://radicalcapitalistorg.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/fb_img_1509225840655.jpg



https://anniedieuleveut.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/stefan-5.jpg

CaptUSA
07-20-2018, 02:12 PM
Citizens have a right to be here and foreigners don't, we can't deport undesirable citizens but we can avoid letting in undesirable foreigners who will make our own problems worse.

Um, you realize governments don’t create rights, don’t have? They come from your creator. The constitution was meant to make sure this government wouldn’t interfere with the rights people already have.

You’re talking about a privilege. Those can be given and taken away at a whim.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 02:29 PM
Um, you realize governments don’t create rights, don’t have? They come from your creator. The constitution was meant to make sure this government wouldn’t interfere with the rights people already have.

You’re talking about a privilege. Those can be given and taken away at a whim.

A citizen has a right to live in his own country and it can't be revoked, the creation of the group creates the right of the group members to live in its territory, nobody has a right to live in a foreign country that doesn't want them.

CaptUSA
07-20-2018, 02:39 PM
A citizen has a right to live in his own country and it can't be revoked, the creation of the group creates the right of the group members to live in its territory, nobody has a right to live in a foreign country that doesn't want them.


Got it. You are just as ignorant about rights as you are about economics. Thanks for making that clear. :D


This is a Trump voter, folks.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 02:52 PM
Got it. You are just as ignorant about rights as you are about economics. Thanks for making that clear. :D


This is a Trump voter, folks.

You are the ignorant one.
Groups exist, groups have to exist, groups always have existed sine there were enough people to form them, group members have rights as members of the group that outsiders don't have, the outsiders have their own groups where they have rights that members of the first group don't have.

CaptUSA
07-20-2018, 03:01 PM
You are the ignorant one.
Groups exist, groups have to exist, groups always have existed sine there were enough people to form them, group members have rights as members of the group that outsiders don't have, the outsiders have their own groups where they have rights that members of the first group don't have.


Lol. That’s not how rights work. Not even close. Trump supporter folks. Remember that.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 03:10 PM
Lol. That’s not how rights work. Not even close. Trump supporter folks. Remember that.

Some rights don't work that way some do.
I have a right to be in my home and so do members of my family, outsiders don't have that right, it is the same with my country and my fellow citizens vs. foreigners.

It is hilarious watching you flaunt your ignorance like this.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 03:11 PM
This is a Trump voter, folks.

Actually I didn't vote for him last time and whether or not I vote for him next time hasn't been determined yet.

Jamesiv1
07-20-2018, 03:18 PM
Legal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits the first five years they are legally in the country (Welfare/ SNAP, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc). Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any Federal benefits.
The wall just got 10 feet higher.

DamianTV
07-20-2018, 03:53 PM
Hmm...

If people are not given Rights from Govt, but rather their Creator, and Govts are created by people, would that make the People the Creator of Govts, and, in turn, again since Rights are granted by their Creator and People created Govt, can the People grant very specific Rights (really Privileges) to the Govts they create?

I am sort of testing the concept of Abstraction at both Macro and Micro scale, so I need to hear both sides to the argument... The idea is that things which work at the small scale also work on large and very large scale, abstracting back and forth between very small and very large, so I am curious.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 03:57 PM
Hmm...

If people are not given Rights from Govt, but rather their Creator, and Govts are created by people, would that make the People the Creator of Govts, and, in turn, again since Rights are granted by their Creator and People created Govt, can the People grant very specific Rights (really Privileges) to the Govts they create?

I am sort of testing the concept of Abstraction at both Macro and Micro scale, so I need to hear both sides to the argument... The idea is that things which work at the small scale also work on large and very large scale, abstracting back and forth between very small and very large, so I am curious.

We the People of the United States.......

DamianTV
07-20-2018, 04:13 PM
We the People of the United States.......

Then the People have Rights, both at an individual level, and at a national level? Would that also mean (and yes, stretching here a bit) to collectively say "we dont want every immigrant that wants to come here"? Would the People have the Right to do such a thing? Again, extending, if one of the foundations of Rights is "I own myself", as a collective (and yes, being careful with that), would "The People" technically own the country? And same as Private Property Rights where if you own your Property like your house, you have a Right to say you may / may not smoke in my house, and that is MY Permission to grant. A homeowner would also a Right to say you may / may not enter my house. Abstracting to larger scale and extension, collectively you may / may not enter our Country?

Abstract to small scale, I think what has happened is a homeowner allowed a person to come into their house, and the invited person is now inviting other people to come into the homeowners house, even though they do not have the Right to do so. I believe that concept is why there is a major difference between Constitutional Rights and Civil Liberties, where the Rights protect the Individual and Civil Liberties protect the community as a whole.

Feel free to challenge the idea, but is that thinking rational?

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 04:19 PM
Then the People have Rights, both at an individual level, and at a national level? Would that also mean (and yes, stretching here a bit) to collectively say "we dont want every immigrant that wants to come here"? Would the People have the Right to do such a thing? Again, extending, if one of the foundations of Rights is "I own myself", as a collective (and yes, being careful with that), would "The People" technically own the country? And same as Private Property Rights where if you own your Property like your house, you have a Right to say you may / may not smoke in my house, and that is MY Permission to grant. A homeowner would also a Right to say you may / may not enter my house. Abstracting to larger scale and extension, collectively you may / may not enter our Country?

Abstract to small scale, I think what has happened is a homeowner allowed a person to come into their house, and the invited person is now inviting other people to come into the homeowners house, even though they do not have the Right to do so. I believe that concept is why there is a major difference between Constitutional Rights and Civil Liberties, where the Rights protect the Individual and Civil Liberties protect the community as a whole.

Feel free to challenge the idea, but is that thinking rational?
I don't know exactly what you mean by the civil liberties part but the group property rights part is exactly right.

oyarde
07-20-2018, 04:21 PM
I cannot speak for everyone of course but right now I am leaning towards deportation to canada if Danke cannot pass my test .

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 04:22 PM
I cannot speak for everyone of course but right now I am leaning towards deportation to canada if Danke cannot pass my test .

Why not Mexico?

oyarde
07-20-2018, 04:27 PM
Why not Mexico?

That would be inhumane , Danke has a low tolerance to sunlight , tainted water , cane sugar and they have no medical assistance for veterans.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 04:29 PM
That would be inhumane , Danke has a low tolerance to sunlight , tainted water , cane sugar and they have no medical assistance for veterans.

But it is it humane to Canada to send Danke there?

DamianTV
07-20-2018, 04:36 PM
I don't know exactly what you mean by the civil liberties part but the group property rights part is exactly right.

Well, a Civil Liberty would say that when I am in your house and it is your property, I have a Liberty to use the bathroom, but do NOT have a Right to smoke in your house. I would have a Right to smoke in my own house, but not yours, as it would be your permission (Civil Liberty) to grant in that specific situation. What neither one of us would have a Right to do is to decree that the other may not smoke, ever.

Recognizing the difference between a Right and a Civil Liberty (Permission) is a very important concept to understand. Trouble with this understanding is that for most people, the Definition between Rights and Permissions has been heavily confused. Whether that Confusion is intentional or not, the consequences are the same. Rights end where the Equal Rights of others begin. So yes, a person you once invited into your house has Rights, but by coming into your house, where you are Sovereign, King, and there is NO higher authority, they choose to temporarily give up their own Rights and abide by your rules. Outside your house, you would have zero authority over what they do. You could say that based on their behavior outside your house that you will no longer allow them to come inside your house, but, being Sovereign over your own property, you do NOT need ANY reason to say "no, you may not come in". A "Civil Liberty" would be nothing more than a Permission you chose to grant, and have valid authority to revoke that Permission at any time. Can I have one of your beers? That is your Permission to grant, but most importantly, I should not think for a second that I have any authority to take your beer without your permission.

Ron explained a form of this as Entitlement.

Immigration I do not believe is a Right, but a Permission to be granted by the We the People, and we can pick and choose, and even cherry pick who we will allow to come into the country for what ever reason, if any, that we want. Also, this isnt directed specifically at you, just an in general reply.

oyarde
07-20-2018, 04:42 PM
But it is it humane to Canada to send Danke there?

They will have to toughen up . Be good for them.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 04:45 PM
Well, a Civil Liberty would say that when I am in your house and it is your property, I have a Liberty to use the bathroom, but do NOT have a Right to smoke in your house. I would have a Right to smoke in my own house, but not yours, as it would be your permission (Civil Liberty) to grant in that specific situation. What neither one of us would have a Right to do is to decree that the other may not smoke, ever.

Recognizing the difference between a Right and a Civil Liberty (Permission) is a very important concept to understand. Trouble with this understanding is that for most people, the Definition between Rights and Permissions has been heavily confused. Whether that Confusion is intentional or not, the consequences are the same. Rights end where the Equal Rights of others begin. So yes, a person you once invited into your house has Rights, but by coming into your house, where you are Sovereign, King, and there is NO higher authority, they choose to temporarily give up their own Rights and abide by your rules. Outside your house, you would have zero authority over what they do. You could say that based on their behavior outside your house that you will no longer allow them to come inside your house, but, being Sovereign over your own property, you do NOT need ANY reason to say "no, you may not come in". A "Civil Liberty" would be nothing more than a Permission you chose to grant, and have valid authority to revoke that Permission at any time. Can I have one of your beers? That is your Permission to grant, but most importantly, I should not think for a second that I have any authority to take your beer without your permission.

Ron explained a form of this as Entitlement.

Immigration I do not believe is a Right, but a Permission to be granted by the We the People, and we can pick and choose, and even cherry pick who we will allow to come into the country for what ever reason, if any, that we want. Also, this isnt directed specifically at you, just an in general reply.

:100:

Zippyjuan
07-20-2018, 06:41 PM
Hmm...

If people are not given Rights from Govt, but rather their Creator, and Govts are created by people, would that make the People the Creator of Govts, and, in turn, again since Rights are granted by their Creator and People created Govt, can the People grant very specific Rights (really Privileges) to the Govts they create?

I am sort of testing the concept of Abstraction at both Macro and Micro scale, so I need to hear both sides to the argument... The idea is that things which work at the small scale also work on large and very large scale, abstracting back and forth between very small and very large, so I am curious.

From the Book Of Romans: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13&version=ERV


All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God. 2 So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves. 3 People who do right don’t have to fear the rulers. But those who do wrong must fear them. Do you want to be free from fearing them? Then do only what is right, and they will praise you.

4 Rulers are God’s servants to help you. But if you do wrong, you have reason to be afraid. They have the power to punish, and they will use it. They are God’s servants to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government, not just because you might be punished, but because you know it is the right thing to do.

6 And this is why you pay taxes too. Those rulers are working for God, and they give all their time to the work of ruling. 7 Give everyone what you owe them. If you owe them any kind of tax, then pay it. Show respect to those you should respect. And show honor to those you should honor.

Loving Others Is the Only Law
8 You should owe nothing to anyone, except that you will always owe love to each other. The person who loves others has done all that the law commands. 9 The law says, “You must not commit adultery, you must not murder anyone, you must not steal, you must not want what belongs to someone else.”[a] All these commands and all other commands are really only one rule: “Love your neighbor[b] the same as you love yourself.”[c] 10 Love doesn’t hurt others. So loving is the same as obeying all the law.

11 I say this because you know that we live in an important time. Yes, it is now time for you to wake up from your sleep. Our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is almost finished. The day is almost here. So we should stop doing whatever belongs to darkness. We should prepare ourselves to fight evil with the weapons that belong to the light. 13 We should live in a right way, like people who belong to the day. We should not have wild parties or be drunk. We should not be involved in sexual sin or any kind of immoral behavior. We should not cause arguments and trouble or be jealous. 14 But be like the Lord Jesus Christ, so that when people see what you do, they will see Christ. Don’t think about how to satisfy the desires of your sinful self.

Zippyjuan
07-20-2018, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE=dannno;6655219...charts.....[/QUOTE]

In his charts, Immigrant means not born in the USA. That can include citizens as well as legal and illegal immigrants. "Any welfare" for a household counts everybody in a house as on welfare if only one person receives a benefit. If Junior gets a subsidized school lunch, the entire family is counted as each being on welfare. Grannie on Social Security and living with a family of four? All five are counted as receiving welfare. These highly distort the figures presented.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 06:53 PM
From the Book Of Romans: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13&version=ERV

Paul was a heretic and Romans 13 is tainted with heresy.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 06:57 PM
In his charts, Immigrant means not born in the USA. That can include citizens as well as legal and illegal immigrants. "Any welfare" for a household counts anybody in a house as on welfare if only one person receives a benefit. If Junior gets a subsidized school lunch, the entire family is counted as each being on welfare. Grannie on Social Security and living with a family of four? All five are counted as receiving welfare. These highly slightly distort the figures presented.

Fixed it.

Very few citizens are born overseas (only a few of those who are will be on welfare) and household finances are managed together so any welfare benefits the entire household.

Zippyjuan
07-20-2018, 07:01 PM
Fixed it.

Very few citizens are born overseas (only a few of those who are will be on welfare) and household finances are managed together so any welfare benefits the entire household.

About 13% of US citizens today were born outside the US.

Swordsmyth
07-20-2018, 07:05 PM
About 13% of US citizens today were born outside the US.

How many of them were born citizens?

Immigrants that gain citizenship eventually and receive welfare are a legitimate part of the charts in question.

DamianTV
07-20-2018, 07:48 PM
Paul was a heretic and Romans 13 is tainted with heresy.

Hey! Thats my new Gamer Handle! FreedomHeretic! :D