Don’t believe the Trump administration: MS-13 is not ravaging the United States

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/10/11/dont-believe-the-trump-administration-ms-13-is-not-ravaging-the-united-states/?utm_term=.903cf290a3bb

MS-13 had its origins in the USA. We exported it to Central America where it grew.


Immigration rates are slowing, and violent crime is at historic record lows, yet the rhetoric about both could not be more heated. The number of new legal immigrants leveled off starting with the Great Recession, while the absolute number of unauthorized immigrants has been falling since 2007. Crime rates have been dropping sharply for far longer, especially for violent crimes, which are just half as common as in 1993, according to FBI statistics.

Yet if you didn’t know better, you might think we’re living in a crime-ravaged dystopia out of “RoboCop,” where foreign gangs prey on fearful citizens in lawless sanctuary cities. That’s certainly the impression one gets from President Trump, who spoke of “American carnage” in his inauguration speech and has proposed a federal agency to track crimes by immigrants, even though research has shown immigrants commit less crime than U.S.-born citizens. Attorney General Jeff Sessions has been leading a crusade against sanctuary cities — cities that limit their cooperation with federal immigration authorities to encourage immigrant cooperation with local police — claiming that these cities have higher rates of violent crime than other cities. The report he cited, however, actually showed this is not true.

The latest boogeyman is MS-13, a gang network that is playing a larger-than-life role in the Virginia gubernatorial election, with encouragement from Trump. Last week, he tweeted that Democratic candidate Ralph Northam “is fighting for the violent MS-13 killer gangs & sanctuary cities.” The tweet echoed television ads that Northam’s Republican opponent Ed Gillespie has been airing throughout the commonwealth, which state Northam “voted in favor of sanctuary cities that let dangerous illegal immigrants back on the street, increasing the threat of MS-13,” while flashing the words “Kill, Rape, Control.”

Trump portrays MS-13 as an alien threat — one that was “let into the country over a fairly short period of time” and has “literally taken over towns and cities of the United States” — but it’s as American as the Crips and Bloods. It began not in Central America but in Los Angeles in the 1980s, where it was originally a much more benign gang of teenagers who liked to smoke pot and listen to heavy metal. The gang’s original name was MSS, Mara Salvatrucha Stoners, and its founders borrowed their devil-horns hand sign from Judas Priest. Formed by Central American civil war refugees in response to harassment by more established local gangs, they became a far more violent group in the crucible of the California prison system.

Then, in the ’90s, they were exported “back” to Central America under a policy of criminal deportations begun under President Bill Clinton, which has continued with bipartisan enthusiasm under every administration since. The 1996 law that expanded deportations, passed in response to the completely unrelated Oklahoma City bombing, greatly increased the scope of deportable offenses for noncitizens, including legal residents. These included things like petty theft, drunken driving and “moral turpitude,” including after time served. The result has been catastrophic for El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala, which for two decades have been on the receiving end of planeloads of tens of thousands of young men with criminal records and tenuous ties to their “home” countries. Facing few job prospects and under-resourced police forces, gang-affiliated deportees built their networks with relative impunity.

Scare stories, often told in racialized dog-whistles, tend to portray MS-13 as a highly structured international cartel targeting law abiding (read: white, U.S.-born) citizens. In reality, it’s best understood as a loose network of mini-gangs that adopt the franchised name of MS but act largely independently. As is the case with gangs throughout American history, whether Italian, Irish, Chinese, or Jewish, their victims are mostly their own communities — for MS-13, in Central America and the United States.

I’ve conducted research in El Salvador, including in the state of San Miguel, an area with a heavy MS-13 presence. There, where walls are adorned with their L.A. gothic-style logo and names of dead homies, their victims are not wealthy people or foreign tourists, because there are none. They are poor people from those communities, particularly street vendors and bus drivers, who are forced to pay protection — extortion being the gang’s primary racket. Given the gang’s franchise model, and the fragmentation of both MS-13 and its rival 18th Street — whose name reflects its origins in the Pico-Union neighborhood of Los Angeles — multiple clicas, or cliques, compete to extort the same vendors, which in recent years has resulted in a spate of bus driver murders.

In the United States, MS-13 cliques similarly seek to extort recent immigrants fleeing the very violence the gang has wrecked at home. Yet facing a much more effective police response, their efforts to organize anything approaching a unified structure have met with infighting and arrests. MS-13’s reputation for violence drives lurid headlines and enhances its brand, but these headlines obscure its marginal status in the world of organized crime: Of the 114,434 people arrested by Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s gang unit last year, just 429 were MS-13 members. As the head of the Northern Virginia Gang Task Force has stated, “the vast majority of their crimes are gang-on-gang,” echoing Senate testimony by Montgomery County, Md.’s police chief that most of their violence is motivated by “perceived or actual rival gang affiliations,” as well as members turning informant, or potential members resisting recruitment efforts.

For all the hype in the governor’s race, MS-13 has been associated with three murders in Virginia this year, and two of the victims were MS-13 members themselves. To put that into perspective, there were 480 homicides in Virginia in 2016, and nine Virginians died in traffic accidents over Fourth of July weekend alone.

Meanwhile, there were 5,278 homicides in El Salvador last year — more than 10 times as many as in Virginia, even though its population of 6 million is only three-quarters that of the commonwealth’s, and the country’s entire national budget is only slightly larger than the budget for Fairfax County. It’s this violence that today’s migrants are fleeing, and it traces directly back to the United States, from Washington-financed civil wars in the ‘80s to California prisons to policies of mass deportations.

MS-13 is indeed a problem. For Central Americans. It’s a problem that’s made worse by xenophobic fearmongering by opportunistic politicians who cast the gang’s victims as threats and see crime as something to be deported away to poor countries far less prepared than we are to deal with it. Sensational tales of gang takeovers of cities will certainly raise the street value of the MS-13 franchise and likely grow its ranks but will only undermine ongoing enforcement efforts to deal with it responsibly.

[Swordsmyth]

Undesirable Aliens get deported.

[Zippyjuan]

https://theconversation.com/ms-13-is-a-street-gang-not-a-drug-cartel-and-the-difference-matters-92702


Inept at drug dealing

What MS-13 has not done is establish any real foothold in the international drug trafficking market.

It’s not for lack of trying. Our study found that MS-13 leaders have made several attempts to get into the business of running illicit drugs.

In the early 2000s, one MS-13 boss named Nelson Comandari tried to use the gang’s national criminal infrastructure to establish a drug distribution network. Comandari was well positioned to do it. He was powerful in L.A., had underworld family connections from El Salvador to Colombia and enjoyed strong ties to the feared Mexican Mafia, a U.S.-based prison gang with connections to Mexican cartels.

Yet within a few years Comandari was frustrated. MS-13 members turned out to be inept at drug smuggling and resistant to the whole idea.


Why MS-13 fails at drug trafficking

One reason MS-13 has failed so roundly at becoming a drug cartel is that it is more of a social club than a lucrative criminal enterprise. Its members benefit from the camaraderie and support that comes with membership – not the heaping monetary rewards that never arrive.

Entrepreneurs who hope to leverage its network for their personal financial gain see the same strong resistance that scuttled Comandari’s plans.

Perhaps more critically, MS-13 is a decentralized organization with no clear hierarchy. The gang is broken into local cells called “cliques” – or “clicas” in Spanish – that are more loyal to each other than to the various leadership councils that operate around Central America and the U.S.

Put simply, it has no leader. So what looks on paper like a tremendous built-in infrastructure for moving illicit products across borders is actually a disparate, federalized organization of substructures with highly local, even competing, interests.

Finally, MS-13 is mostly about immediate gratification. It helps members eke out a living and get some perilous criminal thrills. That’s why extortion is a staple. Complex supply chains? Not so much.



https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2017/06/trump-ms-13/528453/


Nearly all the recent high-profile murders committed by MS-13 were done by young men who killed over arguments at school, or on Facebook. In Montgomery County, other gangs beside MS-13 have become more active, too, but while these murders are “motivated by illegal drug transactions,” the county’s chief of police, J. Thomas Manger, said in a recent Senate committee hearing, MS-13’s murders appear to be related to “perceived or actual rival gang affiliations of the victims.” In other words, these haven’t been the type of murders that would necessitate a vast criminal network reaching back to Central America.

“Remember, this is after all a youth gang,” said José Miguel Cruz, a Central American gang-research specialist at Florida International University. “These are kids—15 or 17 years old—who join a gang perhaps because they feel threatened, or they’re the only peer group in the community.”

[Jan2017]

Don't miss out on contributing to my posts on RPF

You forget about the Texas border and the Gulf Cartel so easily, don't ya.

How many Americans killed by Mexicans year after year for decades now.
9 year olds on the ATVs across the sands of New Mexico border to bring opium product to USA.

You are full of total chit again Zip !

[timosman]

You forget about the Texas border and the Gulf Cartel so easily, don't ya.

How many Americans killed by Mexicans year after year for decades now.
9 year olds on the ATVs across the sands of New Mexico border to bring opium product to USA.

You are full of total chit again Zip !

Is Zippy trying to incite violence? Such blatant displays of stupidity are sure going to trigger somebody.:cool:

[Brian4Liberty]

The gang’s original name was MSS, Mara Salvatrucha Stoners, and its founders borrowed their devil-horns hand sign from Judas Priest.

Fake news. They can't even get the details correct.

The Ministry of Truth strikes again...

[Zippyjuan]

You forget about the Texas border and the Gulf Cartel so easily, don't ya.

How many Americans killed by Mexicans year after year for decades now.
9 year olds on the ATVs across the sands of New Mexico border to bring opium product to USA.

You are full of total chit again Zip !

So how many Americans are being killed by Mexicans in the US every year?

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1742299/original.jpg

https://www.realclearscience.com/images/wysiwyg_images/m6227a1f3.jpg


https://www.realclearscience.com/journal_club/2013/07/22/youth_homicide_rates_by_race_in_the_us_106602.html


Thus, the homicide rate among black youths is nearly 400% higher than the overall youth homicide rate; the homicide rate among Hispanic youths is similar to the overall youth homicide rate; and the homicide rate among white youths is 72% lower than the overall youth homicide rate. Indeed, this indicates that homicide disproportionately affects black youths.

Additionally, in August 2012, the Wall Street Journal reported:

Homicide victims usually are killed by people of their own race and ethnicity. The pattern goes back at least a generation.

Bureau of Justice Statistics data show that from 1976 to 2005, white victims were killed by white defendants 86% of the time and black victims were killed by blacks 94% of the time.

[Zippyjuan]

FBI report:

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2008/january/ms13_011408


Based on information from our own investigations, from our state and local law enforcement partners, and from community organizations, we’ve concluded that while the threat posed by MS-13 to the U.S. as a whole is at the “medium” level


MS-13 members engage in a wide range of criminal activity, including drug distribution, murder, rape, prostitution, robbery, home invasions, immigration offenses, kidnapping, carjackings/auto thefts, and vandalism. Most of these crimes, you’ll notice, have one thing in common—they are exceedingly violent. And while most of the violence is directed toward other MS-13 members or rival street gangs, innocent citizens often get caught in the crossfire.


Ron Paul:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/01/news/la-pn-ron-paul-nevada-latino-forum-20120201


"I believe Hispanics have been used as scapegoats, to say, they're the problem instead of being a symptom maybe of a problem with the welfare state," Paul told the group. "In Nazi Germany they had to have scapegoats to blame and they turned on the Jews.

"Now there's a lot of antagonism and resentment turned just automatically on immigrants," he continued. "You say, no not immigrants, it's just illegal immigrants. I do believe in legal immigration. I want to have a provision to obey those laws. You have to understand this in the context of the economy."

Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.

958533976175661056

[fedupinmo]

How many of them are you letting live with you, Zp?

[Anti Federalist]

https://www.realclearscience.com/images/wysiwyg_images/m6227a1f3.jpg

All that does is show how homicidal colored people are...

[Anti Federalist]

958533976175661056

Ron is absolutely right.

Colored immigrants consistently vote for and advocate for more government, more taxation and less liberty.

Thus government is serving its prime function by restricting them from entry, citizenship and voting.

[Swordsmyth]

Juan you are making a good case that everybody would have been much better off if they had never been allowed to come here.

[Zippyjuan]

All that does is show how homicidal colored people are...

And how average Hispanics are.

[Swordsmyth]

And how average Hispanics are.

And how much worse than Whites and Other they are.

[Anti Federalist]

And how average Hispanics are.

A murder rate well over three times that of white people in 2010? (Granted, kind of tough to interpolate on the x axis of that graph, but it looks like the Hispanic murder rate is 10 per 100k and the white rate, which has remained almost rock steady at 2-3 per 100k since 1990)

Not exactly what I would call average.

And because of the inevitable response of the common man to all this mayhem is, natch, more cops and more prisons, how much liberty has been sacrificed because of that, from everything from militarized cops hut hutting about everywhere to the "prison industrial complex"?

Bottom line is this: you have a valid point with which I agree regarding the origin of MS 13, this is yet another sorry chapter in the endless tomfuckery of progressive Rooseveltian/Wilsonian intervention in the internal affairs of other nations.

That said...tough shit, I don't care what caused it anymore. These assholes bring nothing positive to the table. If here already and not a citizen, throw them out. If not and trying to get in from somewhere else, fuck them, let them piss off back to where they came from.

[Jan2017]

Zippy quotes the FBI - LOL - as if it is somehow NOT the most disreputed of all of our institutions.

Opium fields of northern Mexico have indirectly led to how many deaths to USA citizens (?)

[Zippyjuan]

Zippy quotes the FBI - LOL - as if it is somehow NOT the most disreputed of all of our institutions.

Opium fields of northern Mexico have indirectly led to how many deaths to USA citizens (?)

How many? (actually Mexican fields are in SOUTHERN Mexico- not Northern). https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/01/14/571184153/on-the-hunt-for-poppies-in-mexico-americas-biggest-heroin-supplier Heroin also comes from Columbia, Afghanistan, and some Asian countries.

There were about 15,000 opium related deaths in 2016 (out of 2.6 million deaths in the US). No way to know where they got it from. 23,000 died from synthetic opiates.
https://d14rmgtrwzf5a.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/overdosedeaths1.jpg

But that is not due to immigration. That is due to drug trade.

[Jan2017]

How many? (actually Mexican fields are in SOUTHERN Mexico- not Northern).

How many ? How many kilos of opium hauled from fields in Mexico - southern and northern - to the Gulf Cartel processing plant in Tamaulipas ?

ALL with that opium product destination of the USA - but keep it a secret so no one knows.

Made from 100% Mexican opium poppies - grown in Mexico for our American enemies.

[Zippyjuan]

How many ? How many kilos of opium hauled from fields in Mexico - southern and northern - to the Gulf Cartel processing plant in Tamaulipas ?

ALL with that opium product destination of the USA - but keep it a secret so no one knows.

Made from 100% Mexican opium poppies - grown in Mexico for our American enemies.

Banning Mexicans from the US doesn't deal with that. Why do they produce it and send it here? Because people want it and are willing to pay for it.

Gonna need a bigger police state to get rid of it all (which is impossible to do).

[Jan2017]

Banning Mexicans from the US doesn't deal with that. Why do they produce it and send it here? Because people want it and are willing to pay for it.

Distribution network of Mexican illegals committing a crime wave in USA for decades . . . with Zippy quotes
that the FBI determines that everything is fine - LOL

Tell your Mexican opium distributing friends that we are not hunting them down - maybe they'll believe that lie and never see us coming at their throats.

It is NOT banning - over-immigration means that the millions of Mexicans here in the USA illegally - including DACA Scheemers and others you'd like sanctioned as legal -
just get deported ASAP.

They have the right to appeal the deportation - they have absolutely NO right to immigrate.

Mexico should have normal immigration status in about 40 years based on the millions of Mexicans here illegally in the USA
and counting that remaining Mexican illegals toward the quota every other nation in the world can comply with and follow - except Mexico.

[Jan2017]

So how many Americans are being killed by Mexicans in the US every year?


Way too many . . . count the attempted murders and all the carjackings outside San Antonio TOO if you would please for full picture of reality and accuracy.

And the opium deaths . . . and the cost and drain on the US economy by the millions of illegal Mexicans is ?
Cost is BBBillions, isn't it ?

[Zippyjuan]

Distribution network of Mexican illegals committing a crime wave in USA for decades . . . with Zippy quotes
that the FBI determines that everything is fine - LOL

Tell your Mexican opium distributing friends that we are not hunting them down - maybe they'll believe that lie and never see us coming at their throats.

It is NOT banning - over-immigration means that the millions of Mexicans here in the USA illegally - including DACA Scheemers and others you'd like sanctioned as legal -
just get deported ASAP.

They have the right to appeal the deportation - they have absolutely NO right to immigrate.

Mexico should have normal immigration staus in about 40 years based on the millions of mexicans here illegally in the USA.

I guess it must be the increasing number of foreigners in the country which has caused our crime rates to soar over the past few decades. Oops. I mean declining.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1742299/original.jpg

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/prisons2-jpg.375306/

[Jan2017]

I guess it must be the increasing number of foreigners in the country which has caused our crime rates to soar over the past few decades.


Millions of illegal Mexicans are here illegally - working under the table to send funds outside the US, distributing opium products grown and processed in Mexico,
carjackings on the interstate south of San Antonio.

Guessing that this is a crime wave caused by anything other than illegal Mexicans - by the millions illegal per se​ already committing a crime by their very entry.

[enhanced_deficit]

Don’t believe the Trump administration: MS-13 is not ravaging the United States




This is seems bit of faux outrage from WaPo.

Zippy/WaPo, this is probably part of messaging to establish him in the minds of base as the 'ultimate defender' of the base's interests before he can move to on to do "the whole thing (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?523513-Immigration-To-The-United-States-Is-A-quot-Human-Right-quot&p=6646712&viewfull=1#post6646712)" in collaboration with Dems.
Sort of like Obama's messaging during early years established him as "anti war" just before he as used by neocons owners to sponsor some of the bloodiest civil wars violence from Libya to Syria to Israeli un-occupied territories.

You know that in reality he's very moderate on core issue right and is many times opportunistically just toying with Obama burnt out GOP base's emotions through strategic ambiguity?



https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/AJwG8tF1A2tVJ4fJb4rhTbNbVuI=/0x0:633x331/fit-in/1200x630/cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9245523/Screen_Shot_2017_09_14_at_10.41.46_AM.png

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/294/982/125.jpg (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?523513-Immigration-To-The-United-States-Is-A-quot-Human-Right-quot&p=6646712&viewfull=1#post6646712)

[Jan2017]

I guess it must be the increasing number of foreigners in the country which has caused our crime rates to soar over the past few decades.


Can you guess about how many millions of illegal Mexicans are in the USA today ? All are criminals per se

[Zippyjuan]

Way too many . . . count the attempted murders and all the carjackings outside San Antonio TOO if you would please for full picture of reality and accuracy.

And the opium deaths . . . and the cost and drain on the US economy by the millions of illegal Mexicans is ?
Cost is BBBillions, isn't it ?

52 million Hispanics in the US. 532 killed a white person (2,661 whites killed by whites- better ban them- they are five times as likely to kill you! ). 17,000 homicides in the US in 2016.

Yeah- they are all killers and drug dealers. Plus that soaring crime rate we have (er, falling crime rate).

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex _of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

[Ender]

How many ? How many kilos of opium hauled from fields in Mexico - southern and northern - to the Gulf Cartel processing plant in Tamaulipas ?

ALL with that opium product destination of the USA - but keep it a secret so no one knows.

Made from 100% Mexican opium poppies - grown in Mexico for our American enemies.

The alphabets run the drug business worldwide. Stop the WoD and none of this would be a concern.

Long article about what's really going on but worth the read:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/11/nathan-kleffman/cia-drug-dealing/

Conclusion:

Sure, there may be a few bad apples, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. But first, take a look at decades of government complicity, collaboration and encouragement of worldwide drug-dealing, from the forests of Nicaragua to the mountains of Afghanistan. Think of the hundreds of billions of dollars of drug money laundered through the largest and most prestigious banks on the planet. Contemplate the additional billions spent by tax payers to “fight” a hopeless war that does nothing to stop drugs, but if anything just takes out the government’s small-time competition in the drug-dealing business. Finally, review the network of industries making hundreds of millions in building jails, housing inmates, and profiting off of their slave labor. Taken together, this is something so diabolical it only belongs at the doorstep of a shadowy group like the Illuminati.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Don’t believe the Trump administration





But I should believe someone who is paid to post here?:confused:







`

[phill4paul]

Christ on rollerblades! So MS-13 is just a bunch of Boy Scouts? Outstanding alter boys? What a load of shit.

Fuck 'em. Dump them overboard at 48°52.6′S 123°23.6′W and tell 'em to start swimming.

[Zippyjuan]

But I should believe someone who is paid to post here?:confused:







`

I only get $20 million a year. How about a raise, boss?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I only get $20 million a year. How about a raise, boss?


I sort of wondered how much people in your group get. You guys aren't run-of-the-mill dunces, at least not in a textbook way. I will give you that. I'd guess about 15-20 bucks her hour?

[phill4paul]

MS-13 and Sex Trafficking

In my last post, I talked about a horrific criminal case out of Kensington, Md., in which members of MS-13 have been charged with the beating (with a bat) of a 15-year-old sex trafficking victim. As Washington, D.C., ABC affiliate WJLA explained, according to court documents:

Montgomery County authorities served a search and seizure warrant at a suspected MS-13 hangout house along the 11200 block of Valley View Avenue in Kensington, near Albert Einstein High School. As a result of that warrant, an unnamed source told detectives about an incident that left a 15-year-old girl "severely" wounded and bloody.

The source explained [Miguel Angel] Ayala-Rivera, a high-ranking local MS-13 leader who goes by the nickname "Noctorno," pimps out a number of underage girls from a number of states. On Aug. 1, 2017, the source said [Ivan Alexis] Pena-Rodriguez, [Yervin Josue] Romero-Rivera, Ayala-Rivera, plus two other men, used a solid bat to beat the girl behind the single-family home along Valley View Avenue. The men reportedly took turns whacking the 15-year-old girl's flailing body — 28 swings in total. Her injuries included an "indented" buttocks, discolored arms and legs, and visible bleeding from the neck down.

It turns out that this alleged criminal enterprise was not an isolated endeavor, but that such sex trafficking is a core element of MS-13's business model.

In November 2011, the Washington Post reported on "dozens of prostitutes, many juveniles, being sold for sex in the Washington area by" MS-13, in a move by the gang to expand its illicit businesses. On June 1, 2012, the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Virginia (USAO) detailed the prosecution of 24-year-old Rances Ulices Amaya, who went by the aliases "Murder" and "Blue". Amaya had been sentenced "to 50 years in prison for recruiting girls as young as 14 from middle schools, high schools, and homeless shelters in Northern Virginia and forcing them to engage commercial sex acts on behalf of MS-13."

As the USAO explained that offense:

[I]In 2009, Amaya joined forces with an MS-13 associate who was already prostituting underage girls. Amaya used the violent reputation of MS-13 to ensure that sex customers paid for the sex and did not lure the underage victims away. He also used his MS-13 contacts to find sex customers and would offer free sex with the victims and a cut of the profits for any gang member who provided customers or underage girls. Amaya and his co-conspirator sought out illegal aliens as customers because they believed illegal aliens were unlikely to call the police. Amaya would hand out his telephone number at construction sites and convenience stores frequented by day laborers from Latin America.

Victims were required to have sex with eight to 10 paying customers per day, sometimes seven days per week. Some of the customers were sex addicts and repeat customers who paid daily for the sex. At night, after the paying customers were finished, Amaya would invite his fellow MS-13 members to have sex with the girls. Sometimes, to punish victims, the gang would "run a train" on a victim, which meant that multiple gang members would have sex with the victim in rapid succession. Amaya and other gang members also raped the victims both for their enjoyment and to "groom" them for the sex trafficking scheme.

Amaya was, at that point, the fourth member of the gang to be convicted of sex trafficking children in the Eastern District of Virginia alone.

The website Human Trafficking Search describes how MS-13 is able to obtain the victims it exploits:

In the United States, victims of MS-13 tend to be Latino immigrant girls or girls from the Northern Triangle countries who came into the country as unaccompanied minors. Once the unaccompanied minors are smuggled into the United States, they become prime targets for human trafficking. HHS places minors either in foster care, with family or a sponsor. The majority of unaccompanied minors end up in California, New York, Texas, and the Washington DC area that includes Maryland and Virginia — states that have large Central American populations and thus large MS-13 populations. ... MS-13 preys on the vulnerability of the unaccompanied minors; some have previously suffered sexual abuse either in their home country or during the trip north; others lack a community and do not speak English. Members of MS-13 seek out the vulnerable young girls using violence and other coercive tactics to intimidate the girl into having sex for money to help financially support the gang. Runaways are also appealing to the MS-13. Family problems, transitions from foster care and economic problems are some of the reasons that unaccompanied minors run away from their homes. Many of the unaccompanied minors may have experienced sexual abuse, exploitation or physical abuse in their home countries or during their migration to the United States and even more suffer from poverty and lack of a stable social network. These are all factors that make young girls more susceptible to human trafficking.

The money that the gang makes from these horrendous crimes supports its other criminal activities. In October 2012, the Treasury Department designated MS-13 as a "transnational criminal organization". The department explained:

Local MS-13 cliques take direction from the group's foreign leadership for strategic decisions involving moves into new territories and efforts to recruit new members. Money generated by local MS-13 cliques in the U.S. is consolidated and funneled to the group's leadership in El Salvador.

Aliens fleeing the generalized violence in Central America often point to the prevalence of gang crime and recruitment in their home countries as grounds for asylum. As my colleague Jessica Vaughan recently pointed out in a Backgrounder titled "MS-13 Resurgence: Immigration Enforcement Needed to Take Back Our Streets", however: "The proliferation of sanctuary policies that interfere with cooperation between state and local law enforcement agencies threatens to hamper efforts to stifle MS-13 activity" in the United States.

This is the same gang activity that, as the foregoing demonstrates, funds the violence those aliens are fleeing. Thus, sanctuary policies are part of a vicious circle of crime, exploitation, and violence that creates the very victims they purportedly protect.

For those who would argue that such sanctuary policies are necessary in order to ensure that the underage girls who become sex trafficking victims are willing to trust the police in the United States, the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) has a ready response. Trafficking victims are eligible for so-called T visas under section 101(a)(15)(T) of the INA. Describing those visas, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) states:

In October 2000, Congress created the "T" nonimmigrant status by passing the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act (VTVPA). The legislation strengthens the ability of law enforcement agencies to investigate and prosecute human trafficking, and also offer protection to victims.

Human trafficking, also known as trafficking in persons, is a form of modern-day slavery in which traffickers lure individuals with false promises of employment and a better life. Traffickers often take advantage of poor, unemployed individuals who lack access to social services. The T Nonimmigrant Status (T visa) is a set aside for those who are or have been victims of human trafficking, protects victims of human trafficking and allows victims to remain in the United States to assist in an investigation or prosecution of human trafficking.

Notably, that agency offers significant resources for the victims of these crimes.

Moreover, as Vaughan details in her Backgrounder, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and other immigration agencies are able to use "unique immigration authorities that can be particularly effective in addressing criminal activity from transnational gangs." As she states:

These authorities include the ability to charge criminal aliens with immigration violations such as illegal entry, overstaying a visa, re-entry after deportation, failure to appear for immigration proceedings, illegal possession of a firearm, identity or document fraud, immigration fraud, alien smuggling, immigration charges based on prior commission of serious crimes (aggravated felonies) and other prosecutorial tools.

Local and state politicians, however, caught up in the hype of what the Washington Post describes as a "wave of immigration arrests" and other ICE enforcement efforts have rejected that assistance, opting for sanctuary policies instead. At the end of the day, those policies only benefit the criminals who would have otherwise been apprehended and deported.

My November 2017 post, "Sex-Trafficking Smugglers Busted Through Federal-State Cooperation" shows how proper interaction with ICE can be. As I stated:

On November 8, 2017, the Department of Justice (DOJ) announced the indictment in Houston of 22 alleged members or affiliates of the "Southwest Cholos" street gang for "multiple violent crimes". Among those crimes is a sex-trafficking scheme in which:

[I]llegal aliens were allegedly promised they could work in a restaurant to pay off their smuggling debts. After arriving in Houston, however, victims were told they actually had to work as prostitutes in brothels the alleged gang members controlled. The indictment alleges the defendants engaged in numerous acts and threats of violence against the victims and their families whenever the women refused to work as prostitutes or failed to make enough money.

As I noted therein, the operation that shut down this purported enterprise "was conducted by state, local, and federal agencies, including ICE, 'as part of both the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force and the Human Trafficking Rescue Alliance (HTRA).'"

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, among others, has characterized our immigration system as "broken". In reality, however, our immigration system is more "underutilized" than it is "broken", as the problem of gang members engaging in human sex trafficking demonstrates.

Congress has crafted a fairly intricate system of benefits, punishments, and rewards to effectuate its immigration policy. Unfortunately, all too often state and local politicians (some well-meaning, and some craven) interfere and attempt to disrupt that system to prevent it from functioning as it should, bending it instead to further their own political agendas.

In the end, it is often the most vulnerable who suffer from those efforts.

https://cis.org/Arthur/MS13-and-Sex-Trafficking

[Jan2017]

I'll chime in also . . . crime statistics are who gets caught.
If you are good at your business model of carjackings, sex trafficking, and opium distribution you don't get caught as much)

The amount of carjackings ( throwing railroad ties on the interstate to disable cars or combined efforts of a 2-3 cars to squeeze a victim's car off the road ) in the San Antonio area at night seems largely unreported, as far as I can tell.

[Zippyjuan]

I'll chime in also . . . crime statistics are who gets caught.
If you are good at your business model of carjackings, sex trafficking, and opium distribution you don't get caught as much)

The amount of carjackings ( throwing railroad ties on the interstate to disable cars or combined efforts of a 2-3 cars to squeeze a victim's car off the road )
in San Antonio seems largely unreported.

If they are "unreported" how do you know they even occur? How do you know if they occur and who is committing them?

[timosman]

If they are "unreported" how do you know they even occur? How do you know if they occur and who is committing them?

How do you know Zippy is dumb if he doesn't say so?:confused:

[Zippyjuan]

How do you know Zippy is dumb if he doesn't say so?:confused:

Thank you for your informative addition to the discussion.

[johnwk]

Don’t believe the Trump administration: MS-13 is not ravaging the United States



Bull-crap-ski! See the following:
.

Jury finds 8 MS-13 gang members in N.J. guilty of violent street crimes (https://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2016/06/jury_finds_8_ms-13_members_in_nj_guilty_of_violent.html)


june 2, 2016


”NEWARK -- Eight members of a Central American-based street gang that terrorized streets around Plainfield were convicted by a federal jury Wednesday of racketeering-related crimes including murder and other violent acts.”



Six Defendants Convicted In San Francisco MS-13 Gang Trial (https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/08/30/six-defendants-convicted-in-san-francisco-ms-13-gang-trial/)


August 30, 2011


”SAN FRANCISCO (KCBS/AP) – Six of the seven defendants in a months-long federal trial targeting the MS-13 gang, who terrorized the San Francisco Mission District in 2008, have been convicted on a variety of charges, including murder, racketeering and assault.”



Public Middle School in Maryland Terrorized by MS-13 is a “Ticking Time Bomb” (http://www.gloucestercitynews.net/clearysnotebook/2018/06/public-middle-school-in-maryland-terrorized-by-ms-13-is-a-ticking-time-bomb.html)


June 13, 2018


”RIVERDALE, MARYLAND [June 12, 2018](CNBNewsnet)--A violent street gang energized by the steady flow of illegal immigrant minors is terrorizing a public middle school less than 10 miles from the nation’s capital while administrators cover up the problem and the feds ignore the crisis.”


How violent street gang MS-13 operates in Massachusetts (https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2016/01/29/how-violent-street-gang-ms-13-operates-in-massachusetts)


January 29, 2016


“Mata, viola, controla’’ — kill, rape, control — is their motto.
Above all else, members of violent gang MS-13 are expected to protect the name, reputation and status of their gang from rivals or others — by any means necessary. That includes intimidation, violence and murder.

The street gang’s inner workings are detailed in the lengthy indictment against 56 MS-13 gang members, revealing a highly organized and violent organization operating across state and international lines.”


MS-13 is turning Long Island into a homicide hotbed (https://nypost.com/2017/05/24/ms-13-is-turning-long-island-into-a-homicide-hotbed/)


May 24, 2017


”WASHINGTON — The MS-13 gang is linked to a startling 38 percent of all the homicides in normally placid Suffolk County over the last 16 months, its besieged police chief told a startled Senate panel Wednesday.

Since Jan. 1, 2016, 17 of 45 murders in the county have been connected to the brutal gang, testified Police Commissioner Timothy Sini.”



JWK


American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax-slaves to finance the economic needs of millions of poverty stricken, poorly educated, low and unskilled aliens who have invaded America’s borders.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Thank you for your informative addition to the discussion.


But you haven't contributed anything. In fact, you are taking from this site. Just like a wormy thief.

If you disagree with me, then let's have a discussion about it. I will prompt the discussion by asking why you posted this article.







`

[Zippyjuan]

First link:


From 2007 through 2013, members of the Plainfield "clique" committed five murders of rival gang members and former associates, it said.



Second link:


for their roles in turf wars that killed both rivals and innocent bystanders in the streets of the Mission District in 2008.

Third link:


Teachers are afraid, drugs are sold, gang graffiti litters the area surrounding the campus and gang-related fights are a daily occurrence,

Fourth link:


To become a full-fledged member — called a “homeboy’’ — the prospective member has to commit a significant crime, usually the murder of a rival gang member, and must come to the aid of a fellow gang member.

Their violence is mostly targeted at other gangs. Sometimes innocents get caught in the crossfire. They aren't going after middle class whites.

[phill4paul]

Bull-crap-ski! See the following:
.

Jury finds 8 MS-13 gang members in N.J. guilty of violent street crimes (https://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2016/06/jury_finds_8_ms-13_members_in_nj_guilty_of_violent.html)


june 2, 2016


”NEWARK -- Eight members of a Central American-based street gang that terrorized streets around Plainfield were convicted by a federal jury Wednesday of racketeering-related crimes including murder and other violent acts.”



Six Defendants Convicted In San Francisco MS-13 Gang Trial (https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/08/30/six-defendants-convicted-in-san-francisco-ms-13-gang-trial/)


August 30, 2011


”SAN FRANCISCO (KCBS/AP) – Six of the seven defendants in a months-long federal trial targeting the MS-13 gang, who terrorized the San Francisco Mission District in 2008, have been convicted on a variety of charges, including murder, racketeering and assault.”



Public Middle School in Maryland Terrorized by MS-13 is a “Ticking Time Bomb” (http://www.gloucestercitynews.net/clearysnotebook/2018/06/public-middle-school-in-maryland-terrorized-by-ms-13-is-a-ticking-time-bomb.html)


June 13, 2018


”RIVERDALE, MARYLAND [June 12, 2018](CNBNewsnet)--A violent street gang energized by the steady flow of illegal immigrant minors is terrorizing a public middle school less than 10 miles from the nation’s capital while administrators cover up the problem and the feds ignore the crisis.”


How violent street gang MS-13 operates in Massachusetts (https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2016/01/29/how-violent-street-gang-ms-13-operates-in-massachusetts)


January 29, 2016


“Mata, viola, controla’’ — kill, rape, control — is their motto.
Above all else, members of violent gang MS-13 are expected to protect the name, reputation and status of their gang from rivals or others — by any means necessary. That includes intimidation, violence and murder.

The street gang’s inner workings are detailed in the lengthy indictment against 56 MS-13 gang members, revealing a highly organized and violent organization operating across state and international lines.”


MS-13 is turning Long Island into a homicide hotbed (https://nypost.com/2017/05/24/ms-13-is-turning-long-island-into-a-homicide-hotbed/)


May 24, 2017


”WASHINGTON — The MS-13 gang is linked to a startling 38 percent of all the homicides in normally placid Suffolk County over the last 16 months, its besieged police chief told a startled Senate panel Wednesday.

Since Jan. 1, 2016, 17 of 45 murders in the county have been connected to the brutal gang, testified Police Commissioner Timothy Sini.”



JWK


American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax-slaves to finance the economic needs of millions of poverty stricken, poorly educated, low and unskilled aliens who have invaded America’s borders.


Zippy doesn't mind murderers and sex traffickers. They prey on Hispanics so it's no big deal.

[Swordsmyth]

Their violence is mostly targeted at other gangs. Sometimes innocents get caught in the crossfire. They aren't going after middle class whites.

It's nice to hear you admit you don't care about blacks, asians or the poor.
The middle class and rich do get stolen from, raped and killed as targets or bystanders though.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

To become a full-fledged member — called a “homeboy’




Zip and his gang are RPF's MS-13. :cool:
















`

[phill4paul]

Their violence is mostly targeted at other gangs. Sometimes innocents get caught in the crossfire. They aren't going after middle class whites.

No, it's not. Sex trafficking is not violence against other gangs. It is predatory. Specifically targeted to innocents.

[Zippyjuan]

Zippy doesn't mind murderers and sex traffickers. They prey on Hispanics so it's no big deal.

MS-13 was chosen because they are a gang of Hispanics- the message to be afraid of brown people. To manipulate people based on their fears so they can have more power. Why not worry about all gangs and their crimes?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/05/white-gangs-rise-simon-city-royals-mississippi-chicago


Dangerous, growing, yet unnoticed: the rise of America's white gangs

White gangs are less covered by the media, and less punished – even though 53% of gang members in Mississippi are white

When he was 13, three white teenage boys beat Benny Ivey. They aimed for his chest as his back pressed against the wall of his friend’s house in Florence, Mississippi. The skinny blond adolescent had to show he was tough enough to become a Black Gangster Disciple.

It was 1989, the height of the crack era, and many white kids wanted to join black gangs that did not welcome them, so they initiated each other into home-grown copycat versions.

Ivey lived in a trailer park, and the thought of wearing the gang’s colors – black and blue – made him excited to be part of something beyond his chaotic family.

None of them knew the first thing about being in a gang, and yet many kids lusted after it, even some who “lived in nice homes with their families”, Ivey says now. Others grew up like he did: the child of poor crack and opioid addicts, ripe to be ensnared by a world promising brotherhood, loyalty and respect.



How law enforcement labels specific gangs may also obscure white membership, a 2012 study published in the Michigan Journal of Race and Law posited.

Jordan Blair Woods researched how the feds had applied the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (Rico) to various gangs. Congress passed Rico in 1970 to target the mafia as organized “criminal enterprises”. In the early 1990s, the attorney general, Janet Reno, started using Rico to charge criminal street gangs.

Woods explains that law enforcement typically splits gang activity into three groups: white supremacist prison gangs, outlaw biker clubs and criminal street gangs. He concluded that systemic racism often keeps white gangs categorized as prison and biker groups instead of street gangs – the category drawing the toughest charges and sentences.

This means white gangs are not typically policed as stringently, he writes, and their members can miss interventions sometimes offered to more publicized gangs of color. That help can include job and life skills training, or interaction with trained “violence interrupters”, who are often former gang members.

Woods blames the media for underreporting white gangs. He backs up Ivey’s point about this lack of attention, writing that media may be more prone to cover black and Hispanic gangs “because of consumer demands for stories of sensationalized racial gang violence”.

“How can you help [with a problem] if you don’t recognize it’s there?” Ivey says. “A lot of white kids, 15, 16 years old, look at white gangsters as rock stars.”

Mississippi has recently named the majority-white Royals and the Bandidos – a biker “club” started by a white marine later convicted of murder – among its largest criminal street gangs in annual assessments over the last decade. The Mississippi Association of Gang Investigators often points to violent white gangsters to push for tougher enforcement, telling media that 53% of verified gang members in the state are white.

But despite the growth in white gangs, Mississippi public defender André de Gruy says from 2010 to 2017, all 97 people prosecuted under current state gang law were African American.


Law enforcement say the Royals started growing exponentially on the Gulf coast in 2008 – the year Ivey retired– and are now Mississippi’s third largest criminal street gang.

They now refer to themselves as “Chapter 13” and the Mississippi Combat Legion. Police say the gang traffics guns and narcotics, with some members participating in gruesome violence against snitches.


Today, many locals are surprised to learn that white gang members ran drugs and kicked in doors for two decades between Jackson and its majority-white suburbs.

“We watch the news every morning,” Ivey says. “My little girl comes in here and says, ‘Why do black people commit so many crimes?’”

“Baby, because we have Jackson news, and there’s two-thirds black in Jackson,” he tells her. “White people do bad, too.”

Kinda long article so I selected parts of it. More at link.

[timosman]

Their violence is mostly targeted at other gangs. Sometimes innocents get caught in the crossfire. They aren't going after middle class whites.

NIMBY. Fuck off.

[Swordsmyth]

MS-13 was chosen because they are a gang of Hispanics- the message to be afraid of brown people. To manipulate people based on their fears so they can have more power. Why not worry about all gangs and their crimes?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/05/white-gangs-rise-simon-city-royals-mississippi-chicago









Kinda long article so I selected parts of it. More at link.

Maybe because we can't keep homegrown gangs out in the first place.
We already devote resources to home grown gangs but it is so much easier to reduce crime by keeping out or deporting foreign criminals that it would be inefficient not to pay them special attention.

[phill4paul]

MS-13 was chosen because they are a gang of Hispanics- the message to be afraid of brown people. To manipulate people based on their fears so they can have more power. Why not worry about all gangs and their crimes?

Why were they chosen? Because they are fine upstanding citizens, or illegals, with occasional flaws?

[Zippyjuan]

There are an estimated 1.4 million gang members in the US. MS-13 is estimated to have between 6,000 and 10,000. They are not representative of the 52 million Hispanics living in the US any more than the white gangs are representative of white citizens in the US.
https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/21/justice/gang-membership-increase/index.html


An estimated 1.4 million people are active in more than 33,000 street, prison and outlaw motorcycle gangs across the country, the report states. That compares to about 1 million gang members when the investigative agency last compiled such figures in January 2009.


Although overall crime in the United States has continued to decline over the past three years, the relative amount of crime inflicted by gang members appears to have increased. The new FBI report claims that gangs are responsible for 48% of violent crime, on average, in most jurisdictions.

Neighborhood-based gangs have proven that they can be as violent as the notorious Central American gang MS-13, which continues to grow. U.S.-based gangs are establishing stronger working relationships with Central American and Mexican gangs to facilitate not only drug smuggling, but also weapons trafficking and immigrant smuggling, the report claims.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

MS-13 was chosen because they are a gang of Hispanics- the message to be afraid of brown people. To manipulate people based on their fears so they can have more power.


http://members.modernvespa.com/ritchj/uploads/36310024_mg_1536_162.jpg

[phill4paul]

There are an estimated 1.4 million gang members in the US. MS-13 is estimated to have between 6,000 and 10,000. They are not representative of the 52 million Hispanics living in the US any more than the white gangs are representative of white citizens in the US.
https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/21/justice/gang-membership-increase/index.html

But without a vetting process of those crossing the border how can you tell which is which and who is who?

[Zippyjuan]

But without a vetting process of those crossing the border how can you tell which is which and who is who?

You are right. We should be checking out all the white people in the country too since they may be gang members as well. You can never be certain. And can't go by skin color. Papers please!

[johnwk]

First link. . . .Their violence is mostly targeted at other gangs. Sometimes innocents get caught in the crossfire. They aren't going after middle class whites.


Even the Obama administration, in 2012, designated MS-13 a "transnational criminal organization".

"With as many as 10,000 members in 46 states, the gang has expanded far beyond its initial roots. Members are accused of major crimes including murder, kidnapping, prostitution, drug smuggling and human trafficking." LINK (https://www.denverpost.com/2012/10/11/u-s-names-violent-street-gang-ms-13-as-international-criminal-group/)

Stop making crap up.

JWK

[timosman]

You are right. We should be checking out all the white people in the country too since they may be gang members as well. You can never be certain. And can't go by skin color. Papers please!

You don't like white people?:cool:

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Dangerous, growing, yet unnoticed: the rise of America's white gangs

...in Florence, Mississippi.





What do gang members do in the thriving metropolis of Florence? Steal a candy bar from the Piggly Wiggly?














`

[Zippyjuan]

You don't like white people?:cool:

Everybody should be treated the same. Regardless of race, religion, or sex.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

You don't like white people?:cool:


The Zipper John group is full of liberal self-loathing.

[timosman]

What do gang members do in the thriving metropolis of Florence? Steal a candy bar from the Piggly Wiggly?

Let's check the papers of everybody with brown skin! Is this what you suggesting?:D

[timosman]

The Zipper John group is full of liberal self-loathing.

Is there a medical term for what they suffer from?

[Zippyjuan]

What do gang members do in the thriving metropolis of Florence? Steal a candy bar from the Piggly Wiggly?



Or Long Island.

http://www.wlox.com/story/20085238/gangs-are-a-big-problem-in-south-mississippi


Gangs are a big problem in South Mississippi

SOUTH MISSISSIPPI (WLOX) -

Street gangs are something many of you probably associate with poor neighborhoods in big cities, and you visualize its members as being just like the actors you see in television shows or movies.

But the truth is, there are several gangs in South Mississippi and federal agents say members are involved in drugs, gun trafficking, burglaries, home invasions, prostitution rings, shootings and even homicides.

[phill4paul]

You are right. We should be checking out all the white people in the country too since they may be gang members as well. You can never be certain. And can't go by skin color. Papers please!

Lol. You're slipping, Eduardo.

[timosman]

Everybody should be treated the same. Regardless of race, religion, or sex.

That's not currently the case in our country. If am white I can not sue my employer for race based discrimination. This leads to a huge increase in H1B visas.:eek:

[Swordsmyth]

You are right. We should be checking out all the white people in the country too since they may be gang members as well. You can never be certain. And can't go by skin color. Papers please!

Citizens have a right to privacy, foreigners who are seeking permission to enter the country have the right to stay out if they don't like being scrutinized.

[phill4paul]

Everybody should be treated the same. Regardless of race, religion, or sex.

Sure, I treat sex traffickers equally. No problem. How many illegal white sex traffickers entered America last year? You're good with stats.

[Swordsmyth]

Everybody should be treated the same. Regardless of race, religion, or sex.

But not regardless of citizenship or legal status.

[Zippyjuan]

MS-13 is mostly concentrated in a handful of cities. Most cities in the US have some sort of gangs- there are over 30,000 different gangs in the US.

https://www.pinalcentral.com/arizona_news/arizona-border-agents-more-worried-about-cartel-than-ms-/article_9ebbf189-7500-53c6-9eb7-f4dc582ef176.html


Arizona border agents more worried about cartel than MS-13 gang

PHOENIX — President Donald Trump emphasized MS-13 gang violence in his State of the Union address Tuesday, but Arizona officials consider other criminal groups — particularly the Sinaloa cartel — a more significant threat.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, MS-13 is an international criminal organization with more than 10,000 U.S. members. The gang deals mostly in drug distribution, extortion, kidnapping and human trafficking.

MS-13 was founded nearly 35 years ago, mostly by immigrants from El Salvador. Some members are American citizens, the children of original gang members. When taking over trafficking territory they often recruit children and teenagers, especially Salvadoran immigrants.

An Arizona Criminal Justice Commission report in 2015, however, showed a smaller MS-13 impact. Of 59 Arizona law enforcement agencies surveyed, 28.1 percent reported low-level MS-13 activity in their jurisdiction, and more than 60 percent said the gang’s activity was “not applicable.”

Douglas Coleman, special agent in charge of the Drug Enforcement Administration’s Phoenix Division, told Cronkite News that MS-13 does not have an “entrenched footprint” in Arizona, but agents occasionally deal with its members.

“It’s a much bigger problem in other states,” he said. “MS-13 is very prominent in southern California, the Los Angeles area. We see significant portions of them back East in Washington D.C. New York has some. Here in Arizona, we’re a little bit unique. We every day stare at the biggest, most violent and nastiest organization, the Sinaloa cartel.”

Law enforcement officials characterize the Sinaloa cartel as one of the largest drug traffickers in the world, formed by a number of criminal leaders in Mexico with significant political and military influence.

Compared with the Sinaloa cartel’s operations, Coleman characterized MS-13 as at the “lower, retail end of the drug trade,” supporting gang leadership in El Salvador through their criminal income.



more at link.

[timosman]

Can Zippy stop posting links and engage in a discussion? Is this above his pay grade?:cool:

[Zippyjuan]

Can Zippy stop posting links and engage in a discussion? Is this above his pay grade?:cool:

Thank you for your informative contribution to the discussion.

[phill4paul]

MS-13 is mostly concentrated in a handful of cities. Most cities in the US have some sort of gangs- there are over 30,000 different gangs in the US.

https://www.pinalcentral.com/arizona_news/arizona-border-agents-more-worried-about-cartel-than-ms-/article_9ebbf189-7500-53c6-9eb7-f4dc582ef176.html



more at link.


MS-13 was founded nearly 35 years ago, mostly by immigrants from El Salvador. Some members are American citizens, the children of original gang members.

Wait a minute. In your original OP you made the case they they were created here and exported.

You specifically state....


MS-13 had its origins in the USA. We exported it to Central America where it grew.

This article says they started in El Salvador. Which is it? Please let me know which article to not pay attention to.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

gangs-are-a-big-problem-in-south-mississippi


Yeah, a big problem for self-important Johnny Law, who wants a feather in his cap. Small town law enforcement everywhere has been getting military surplus equipment, (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/09/police-military-surplus-purchase-debate/10221551/) but that doesn't mean they're responding to a "problem."






`

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Thank you for your informative contribution to the discussion.


It certainly IS part of the discussion. You get paid to post this stuff, so it certainly is relevant. I asked you earlier to discuss why you posted the thread. It's a fair question.

[Zippyjuan]

Wait a minute. In your original OP you made the case they they were created here and exported.

You specifically state....



This article says they started in El Salvador. Which is it? Please let me know which article to not pay attention to.

No contradiction. Article as you quoted it says:


mostly by immigrants from El Salvador

Doesn't say the started it in El Salvador.

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/12/20/you-feel-that-the-devil-is-helping-you-ms-13s-satanic-history/?utm_term=.6ee831df8b39


Long before it became known as MS-13, the gang was called the Mara Salvatrucha Stoners. As the name suggests, it was founded by marijuana-smoking heavy metal fans in Los Angeles in the 1970s, according to Thomas Ward, an anthropology professor at the University of Southern California who has studied the gang.

Originally, the gang was little more than a club for teenage Salvadorans to get high and listen to music, Ward writes in his ethnography of the gang, “Gangsters Without Borders.” It bore little resemblance to other Latino gangs. Instead of baggy clothes, its members wore black leather jackets and tight, frayed jeans. But it was also different than other stoner groups in one important respect.

“A few of its members were hard-core Satanists who worshipped the devil and went so far as to practice gruesome animal sacrifices,” Ward writes. “These Satanists gave MSS its badass reputation for evil. Although the vast majority of these stoners never participated in these bloody ritual animal sacrifices or gave any thought to becoming Satanists, they banked on their gang’s reputation for devil worship, which gave it and them an aura of mystery and terror.”

One Mara Salvatrucha member told Ward of his initiation into the gang.

“We went to a cemetery and swore an oath by drinking each other’s blood,” he said. “We took a knife and cut our hands and then drained our blood into a cup to drink it. We smoked a lot of mota [marijuana], and then we cut open a cat.”

In the 1980s, a wave of Salvadorans fleeing the country’s civil war — including some who had fought in the conflict — bolstered the gang but also began to change it. MS morphed into a more traditional street gang that offered Salvadorans protection from black and Latino gangs. Over time, MS outstripped its local rivals in sheer brutality. Its members became hardened by prison, where they adopted what Ward calls the “cholo” style of dress common in other Latino gangs.

(It was also inside California’s penitentiaries that MS earned the “13” now in its name by aligning with the Mexican Mafia, a powerful prison gang known as la eMe, or “The M” — the 13th letter of the alphabet.)

One thing that didn’t change, however, was the gang’s association with satanism.

“When MSS became MS, it kept its reputation for Satan worship,” Ward writes, “which gave it an aura of demonic mystery.”

‘Scattering the organs on the ground in a pentagonal shape’

By the mid 1990s — when L.A.’s soaring gang violence pushed it past D.C. for the title of America’s murder capital — officials had come to recognize MS-13 as a public safety threat. Starting in President Bill Clinton’s second term, the administration sought to tamp down gang violence in the U.S. by deporting thousands of MS-13 members to El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras.

But the strategy backfired. In the weakly governed, war-ravaged countries of the Northern Triangle, the gang was able to reconstitute itself and then rapidly grow in strength, according to a two-part history of the gang published in the online Spanish-language newspaper El Faro.

Over the past 20 years, MS-13 and its rival, 18th Street, have carved up territory in Central America, said a federal law enforcement official who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

“If you grow up in one of these havens, that’s it. You are MS because your father was MS and your grandfather was MS,” he said. “And for you to be able to walk down the street and get a Coca-Cola or what have you, you have to make sure you are part of something so you’re not preyed upon. That’s their safety net.”

In these gang-controlled neighborhoods, satanism persisted.

“What the two gangs do have in common is the belief that life and death are somehow intermingled,” Pablo Trincia wrote in the Independent. “This belief partly explains the bones and devils tattooed on their bodies, as well as their satanic rituals, such as hacking a victim to death and scattering the organs on the ground in a pentagonal shape.”

As MS-13 violence returned to the United States with a vengeance in the mid 2000s — including a spate of high profile murders in the Washington region — so did reports of the gang’s satanism.

“The brutality of the gangs’ crimes is increasingly horrific,” the Los Angeles Times reported in 2004. “Homicide victims, including many women and teenage girls, often are found so mutilated that Spanish priest Jose Maria Morataya, who runs a San Salvador rehabilitation and job training center for former gang members … suspects that some gang members practice satanic rituals.”

More at link.

[Swordsmyth]

No contradiction. Article as you quoted it says:



Doesn't say the started it in El Salvador.

It still would never have been started if they hadn't been allowed to come here.

[phill4paul]

No contradiction. Article as you quoted it says:



Doesn't say the started it in El Salvador.

Ah, fair enough.

But, please, expound. Is this your premise, because it sounds like it is? So they started here in America. We deported them and they went back home, where they became a major player linking with the Sinaloa cartel and then came back in. Therefore, it is U.S. deportation that created this gang of thugs, murderers and sex traffickers?

You have a chance to answer honestly. Or you could deflect with graphs and shit.

[Zippyjuan]

It still would never have been started if they hadn't been allowed to come here.

And you would not be here if your ancestors were not allowed in. Millions have entered the country and not become criminals. And having zero immigration does not mean you don't have any violent criminals.

[timosman]

Did Zippy go to school? He seems completely uneducated.:cool:

[timosman]

And you would not be here if your ancestors were not allowed in. Millions have entered the country and not become criminals. And having zero immigration does not mean you don't have any violent criminals.

Having brain cells doesn't mean you can think.:cool:

[phill4paul]

And you would not be here if your ancestors were not allowed in. Millions have entered the country and not become criminals. And having zero immigration does not mean you don't have any violent criminals.

Do you know why my ancestors are here? They waged war and created genocide in epic proportions. I do not care for that fate.

[Zippyjuan]

Ah, fair enough.

But, please, expound. Is this your premise, because it sounds like it is? So they started here in America. We deported them and they went back home, where they became a major player linking with the Sinaloa cartel and then came back in. Therefore, it is U.S. deportation that created this gang of thugs, murderers and sex traffickers?

You have a chance to answer honestly. Or you could deflect with graphs and $#@!.

Not related to Sinaloa cartel which is Mexican. The Arizona Border patrol agents said the are more concerned with Sinaloa than they are about MS-13. MS-13 got more radicalized after they were kicked out of LA and sent back to Honduras and El Salvador. They became much more violent there because life there was more violent (there was a civil war going on which included government death squads).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvadoran_Civil_War


The full-fledged civil war lasted for more than 12 years and saw extreme violence from both sides. It also included the deliberate terrorizing and targeting of civilians by death squads, the recruitment of child soldiers and other violations of human rights, mostly done by the military.[23] An unknown number of people disappeared during the conflict, and the UN reports that the war killed more than 75,000 people between 1980 and 1992.[24][25][26] In 2016, the El Salvador Supreme Court ruled that the amnesty law was unconstitutional and that the El Salvador government could prosecute war criminals.[27]

The United States contributed to the conflict by providing large amounts of military aid to the government of El Salvador during the Carter[28] and Reagan administrations. The Salvadoran government was considered "friendly" and allies by the U.S. in the context of the Cold War.[29] By May 1983, US officers took over positions in the top levels of the Salvadoran military, were making critical decisions and running the war.[30]

The United Nations has estimated that the FMLN guerrillas were responsible for 5% of the murders of civilians during the Salvadoran civil war, while approximately 85% of all killings of civilians were committed by the Salvadoran armed forces and death squads.

El Salvador was a mess but we made it worse. Then we sent kids from LA gangs there where they learned better ways to kill and torture (taught to them by the government we helped support and arm). Then the kids started coming back to the US to share what they learned.

[timosman]

Do you know why my ancestors are here? They waged war and created genocide in epic proportions. I do not care for that fate.

So you admit to your ancestors committing a crime? You should be ashamed of yourself! This is what we are trying really hard to prevent in the future. :cool:

[Swordsmyth]

And you would not be here if your ancestors were not allowed in.
The Injuns shouldn't have let them in.


Millions have entered the country and not become criminals.
Disproportionately those came in through regular legal immigration.


And having zero immigration does not mean you don't have any violent criminals.

Who said zero?
And you would have less than if you let in people who commit crimes at a higher rate than the natives and don't even screen out the worst.

What about El Salvador zip, don't you care that letting in the "refugees" and then deporting them after they created a violent gang was bad for El Salvador?

[timosman]

The Injuns shouldn't have let them in.


Disproportionately those came in through regular legal immigration.



Who said zero?
And you would have less than if you let in people who commit crimes at a higher rate than the natives and don't even screen out the worst.

What about El Salvador zip, don't you care that letting in the "refugees" and then deporting them after they created a violent gang was bad for El Salvador?

This actually created a very difficult situation for MS-13. They simply didn't fit back at home and were vulnerable. They had to come back.:cool:

[Zippyjuan]

The Injuns shouldn't have let them in.


Disproportionately those came in through regular legal immigration.

And you would have less than if you let in people who commit crimes at a higher rate than the natives and don't even screen out the worst.


A political myth used to sell on people's fears. https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime


Illegal Immigration Does Not Increase Violent Crime, 4 Studies Show

The Trump administration regularly asserts that undocumented immigrants are predatory and threaten public safety. Immigrant advocates say that talk demonizes an entire class of people.

Now, four academic studies show that illegal immigration does not increase the prevalence of violent crime or drug and alcohol problems. In the slew of research, motivated by Trump's rhetoric, social scientists set out to answer this question: Are undocumented immigrants more likely to break the law?

Michael Light, a criminologist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, looked at whether the soaring increase in illegal immigration over the last three decades caused a commensurate jump in violent crimes: murder, rape, robbery and aggravated assault.

"Increased undocumented immigration since 1990 has not increased violent crime over that same time period," Light said in a phone interview.

Those findings are published in the current edition of the peer-reviewed journal Criminology.

In a separate study, these same researchers previously looked at nonviolent crime. They found that the dramatic influx of undocumented immigrants, similarly, did not drive up rates of drug and alcohol arrests or the number of drug overdoses and DUI deaths.

"We found no evidence that undocumented immigration increases the prevalence of any of those outcomes," Light said.

A third study, by the libertarian Cato Institute, recently looked at criminality among undocumented immigrants just in Texas. The state records the immigration status of arrestees, creating a gold mine for criminologists.

Cato found that in 2015, criminal conviction and arrest rates in Texas for undocumented immigrants were lower than those of native-born Americans for murder, sexual assault and larceny.

Finally, a research paper appearing in the current edition of the U.K. journal Migration Letters shows that youthful undocumented immigrants engage in less crime than do legal immigrants or U.S.-born peers.

All of this comes as no surprise to Art Acevedo, the police chief in Houston, which has one of largest undocumented populations in the nation. The chief has been publicly critical of the immigration crackdown.

"There's no wave of crime being committed by the immigrant community," Acevedo said. "As a matter of fact, a lot of the violent crime that we're dealing with is being committed by people that are born and raised right here in the United States."

For decades, social science focused on the extent of crime committed by legal immigrants. These new studies are important because they're among the first to explore the link between crime and illegal immigration.

The research proves what Acevedo and others suspected.

"Having worked around this community my entire professional career, which is about 32 years, I know that the vast majority of them that I've encountered are hard-working. They're here to earn an honest living," Acevedo said.

[phill4paul]

Not related to Sinaloa cartel which is Mexican. The Arizona Border patrol agents said the are more concerned with Sinaloa than they are about MS-13. MS-13 got more radicalized after they were kicked out of LA and sent back to Honduras and El Salvador. They became much more violent there because life there was more violent (there was a civil war going on which included government death squads).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvadoran_Civil_War



El Salvador was a mess but we made it worse. Then we sent kids from LA gangs there where they learned better ways to kill and torture (taught to them by the government we helped support and arm). Then the kids started coming back to the US to share what they learned.

OK. So if we just allow them in and give them free education and healthcare everything is gonna be alright?

[timosman]

OK. So if we just allow them in and give them free education and healthcare everything is gonna be alright?

You will have more cool friends! What's not to like?:confused:

[Swordsmyth]

A political myth used to sell on people's fears. https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime

Many other studies disagree.

So does your own chart:



https://www.realclearscience.com/images/wysiwyg_images/m6227a1f3.jpg




Both Hispanics and "others" commit more homicides than the white majority and Hispanics commit more than the average.

[Zippyjuan]

OK. So if we just allow them in and give them free education and healthcare everything is gonna be alright?

People who do commit crimes should be dealt with. Yes. Trying to link an entire country or race with the actions of just a few is wrong. Ron Paul himself says Hispanics are being used as scapegoats.

As for schooling, crime is most closely tied to poverty. If you can help improve somebody's chances at a decent living, they are much less likely to turn into criminals. The other choice is to throw them into our jails- also at taxpayer expense- where they can also learn: to be better criminals. Either way, we pay.

[euphemia]

And you would not be here if your ancestors were not allowed in.

Almost certainly expelled from Scotland for religious reasons, my ancestors were here in 1633. They fought in the Revolution and I'm not allowed to leave the country without proper documentation. It's a funny thing about equal protection under the law. Somehow it only applies when someone is trying to advance a political agenda and take away my rights.

[Swordsmyth]

Zippyjuan

What about El Salvador zip, don't you care that letting in the "refugees" and then deporting them after they created a violent gang was bad for El Salvador?

[Zippyjuan]

Many other studies disagree.

So does your own chart:



Both Hispanics and "others" commit more homicides than the white majority and Hispanics commit more than the average.

Actually in the latest year of that chart, Hispanics were right at the average for all races.

[Zippyjuan]

Almost certainly expelled from Scotland for religious reasons, my ancestors were here in 1633. They fought in the Revolution and I'm not allowed to leave the country without proper documentation. It's a funny thing about equal protection under the law. Somehow it only applies when someone is trying to advance a political agenda and take away my rights.

That is what politicians are trying to do with the immigration story.

[Swordsmyth]

People who do commit crimes should be dealt with. Yes.
Like illegal entry?


Trying to link an entire country or race with the actions of just a few is wrong.
Actually it isn't when deciding how many foreigners to allow in.


Ron Paul himself says Hispanics are being used as scapegoats.
The real culprits are the politicians who let them in and help them stay.


As for schooling, crime is most closely tied to poverty. If you can help improve somebody's chances at a decent living, they are much less likely to turn into criminals. The other choice is to throw them into our jails- also at taxpayer expense- where they can also learn: to be better criminals. Either way, we pay.
Or we can keep them out, they aren't our responsibility.

[Zippyjuan]

Zippyjuan

What about El Salvador zip, don't you care that letting in the "refugees" and then deporting them after they created a violent gang was bad for El Salvador?

Read up on the El Salvador civil war. I posted a tiny bit about it earlier. That is where the "gangsters" learned their new "tricks".

[Swordsmyth]

That is what politicians are trying to do with the immigration story.

Yes, Demoncrats are trying to use immigrants to take away our rights.

[Swordsmyth]

Read up on the El Salvador civil war. I posted a tiny bit about it earlier. That is where the "gangsters" learned their new "tricks".
You said they became a gang in America and got worse in our prisons.
If they became a problem in the civil war back home then we shouldn't let them in, should we?

[phill4paul]

So you admit to your ancestors committing a crime? You should be ashamed of yourself! This is what we are trying really hard to prevent in the future. :cool:

Most my ancestors fought to free the slaves. I'm still waiting for reparations from the ancestors of the slack assed ******* that still plowed the soil in the south, fueling Confederate armies, while they bled out. Ingrates, *******, everyone of them. ;)

[Zippyjuan]

Yes, Demoncrats are trying to use immigrants to take away our rights.

Republicans are the ones trying to take away rights- they are the ones with their hands on the levers of power. They want expanded police and military force and want more rights to detain without trial for unlimited amounts of time. But it is for your own good- they promise! It will only apply to the "bad" people!

(crossing a border is a victimless crime and a misdemeaner- same as littering or driving under the influence).

[Swordsmyth]

Actually in the latest year of that chart, Hispanics were right at the average for all races.
They look above it to me, the lines meet but they don't merge.
And since pro-illegal propaganda has gone into overdrive I severely doubt that the statistics didn't get less accurate during that period.

[timosman]

Zippy's performance today is pathetic. Can we turn him off?:cool:

[phill4paul]

People who do commit crimes should be dealt with. Yes. Trying to link an entire country or race with the actions of just a few is wrong. Ron Paul himself says Hispanics are being used as scapegoats.

As for schooling, crime is most closely tied to poverty. If you can help improve somebody's chances at a decent living, they are much less likely to turn into criminals. The other choice is to throw them into our jails- also at taxpayer expense- where they can also learn: to be better criminals. Either way, we pay.

So, obviously, putting them through school is the better choice? What does Ron Paul say about that?

[Swordsmyth]

Republicans are the ones trying to take away rights- they are the ones with their hands on the levers of power.
Only because we threw the greater evil party out largely due to their attempt to flood the country with communists to outvote us.



They want expanded police and military force and want more rights to detain without trial for unlimited amounts of time. But it is for your own good- they promise!
The Demoncrats wanted all that and more, they also happen to be the ones who created the crisis that might be used for that, what we and Trump want is to keep the barbarians out in the first place.

[euphemia]

That's crap and you know it. Or maybe you don't. Did you know there are checkpoints all along the California border and have been for decades? I remember going to visit family in Arizona back in the 60s. You couldn't take so much as a grape across that border.

Not sure what they look for these days, but the checkpoints still exist.

Link (https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/106617/why-are-there-california-border-crossing-checkpoints-that-dont-seem-to-do-anyth)

Another Link (https://obrag.org/2012/03/my-trip-through-the-check-point-near-the-california-arizona-border/)

And please visit the loo before reading the Official Government Explanation:

Pest Exclusion Link (https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html)

[Zippyjuan]

So, obviously, putting them through school is the better choice? What does Ron Paul say about that?

He opposes educating them. Even though that would help lead them to becoming more productive members of society. Without school, you are more likely to become a burden on society instead. As I said, you pay either way.

[phill4paul]

He opposes educating them. Even though that would help lead them to becoming more productive members of society.

Ron Paul is a terrible man?

[euphemia]

He opposes educating them.

Um, no. He opposes having American taxpayers pay to educate them.

[Zippyjuan]

Ron Paul is a terrible man?

I don't agree with him on everything. Even in this thread, many besides me have disagreed with things Ron Paul has said. He says Hispanics are scapegoats. He has stated he opposes building Trump's wall and he opposes round up illegals already in the country. Do you agree with all of that? Is he a "terrible man"? I don't think he is.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Ron_Paul_Immigration.htm

[Swordsmyth]

(crossing a border is a victimless crime and a misdemeaner- same as littering or driving under the influence).

It is not victimless any more than trespassing and squatting are and the illegals are being used in an attempt to create a communist majority that will take away all our rights.
The Demoncrats admit it and so do the "reconquistadors".

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Zippy's performance today is pathetic. Can we turn him off?:cool:


I somewhat wondered if Zip's boss ever checks on the site to view his posts. Or maybe they just turn these guys loose and issue them a paycheck regardless.

[timosman]

That's crap and you know it. Or maybe you don't. Did you know there are checkpoints all along the California border and have been for decades? I remember going to visit family in Arizona back in the 60s. You couldn't take so much as a grape across that border.

Not sure what they look for these days, but the checkpoints still exist.

Link (https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/106617/why-are-there-california-border-crossing-checkpoints-that-dont-seem-to-do-anyth)

Another Link (https://obrag.org/2012/03/my-trip-through-the-check-point-near-the-california-arizona-border/)

And please visit the loo before reading the Official Government Explanation:

Pest Exclusion Link (https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/plant/pe/ExteriorExclusion/borders.html)

Are these people insane?:eek:

[Zippyjuan]

It is not victimless any more than trespassing and squatting are and the illegals are being used in an attempt to create a communist majority that will take away all our rights.
The Demoncrats admit it and so do the "reconquistadors".

More political BS. Be afraid! Illegals are not allowed to vote so they can't vote for "a communist majority". Only citizens are allowed to vote.

[phill4paul]

I don't agree with him on everything. Even in this thread, many besides me have disagreed with things Ron Paul has said. He says Hispanics are scapegoats. He has stated he opposes building Trump's wall and he opposes round up illegals already in the country. Do you agree with all of that? Is he a "terrible man"? I don't think he is.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Ron_Paul_Immigration.htm

"And during that campaign I got into trouble with Libertarians because I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently." Ron Paul.

The time is at hand.

[Swordsmyth]

He opposes educating them. Even though that would help lead them to becoming more productive members of society. Without school, you are more likely to become a burden on society instead. As I said, you pay either way.
Keeping them out and throwing them out do not burden us, Ron is letting his heart get in the way of his head but he isn't going full liberal so he ends up in the awkward middle with nobody agreeing with him and serious problems that can be pointed out by those on either side of him.

[Swordsmyth]

"And during that campaign I got into trouble with Libertarians because I said there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently." Ron Paul.

The time is at hand.
It has been at hand for most or all of my life, Ron is still in denial because what is required is uncomfortable and he is a very nice man.

[Swordsmyth]

More political BS. Be afraid! Illegals are not allowed to vote so they can't vote for "a communist majority". Only citizens are allowed to vote.
They do vote, besides that their anchor baby children will grow up and vote and the Demoncrats keep demanding a path to citizenship for them so it is even easier to let them vote, if we don't do something or even worse if we do what the Demoncrats want we will have a communist majority in a generation or less.

[timosman]

I somewhat wondered if Zip's boss ever checks on the site to view his posts. Or maybe they just turn these guys loose and issue them a paycheck regardless.

It might be his only chance to interact with people who don't immediately tell him to piss off.:confused:

[phill4paul]

I don't agree with him on everything. Even in this thread, many besides me have disagreed with things Ron Paul has said. He says Hispanics are scapegoats. He has stated he opposes building Trump's wall and he opposes round up illegals already in the country. Do you agree with all of that? Is he a "terrible man"? I don't think he is.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Ron_Paul_Immigration.htm


Q: You voted to support that 700-mile fence along the border with Mexico. Is there a need for a similar fence along the border with Canada?

PAUL: No. The fence was my weakest reason for voting for that, but enforcing the law was important, and border security is important.

Even Ron voted for a border fence.

[Zippyjuan]

They do vote, besides that their anchor baby children will grow up and vote and the Demoncrats keep demanding a path to citizenship for them so it is even easier to let them vote, if we don't do something or even worse if we do what the Demoncrats want we will have a communist majority in a generation or less.

More political jargon. "Commie" is so 1950's.

Asians are now the ones you need to watch out for. They are the #1 source of immigration and the fastest growing segment of the population. Projections have Hispanics reaching one quarter of the population by 2050- and the more generations people are in the country, the more they are like all other Americans. Plus Hispanics are the least likely to actually vote.

[phill4paul]

More political jargon. "Commie" is so 1950's.

Asians are now the ones you need to watch out for. They are the #1 source of immigration and the fastest growing segment of the population. Projections have Hispanics reaching one quarter of the population by 2050- and the more generations people are in the country, the more they are like all other Americans.

Are they coming in illegally? In what numbers?

[Zippyjuan]

Even Ron voted for a border fence.

But he noted:


The fence was my weakest reason for voting for that,

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/ron-paul-on-trumps-border-wall-totally-useless


Ron Paul on Trump's Border Wall: Totally Useless

Former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) says President Trump's plan to build a wall along the country's Southern border a "totally useless" idea with low support in border states.

A new poll found that 61% of Texas citizens do not approve of building a wall along the border with Mexico to keep illegal immigrants out. "I’m glad that the poll shows that people in Texas don’t think much of this wall,” Paul told the FOX Business Network’s Maria Bartiromo.

"I’ve always argued that the walls are going to hinder the American people as much as anybody," Paul said. "If somebody has honestly earned money and they want to walk across the border, they become criminals, you know, they can’t do it because they have all these regulations.”

[Swordsmyth]

More political jargon. "Commie" is so 1950's.
You and your friends are behind the times.


Asians are now the ones you need to watch out for. They are the #1 source of immigration and the fastest growing segment of the population. Projections have Hispanics reaching one quarter of the population by 2050- and the more generations people are in the country, the more they are like all other Americans.
They are all communists and they all tend to vote for the communist Demoncrats, it doesn't matter where they come from we need to limit their numbers and throw out a great many of them.

[Swordsmyth]

But he noted:



https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/ron-paul-on-trumps-border-wall-totally-useless

Troops patrolling the border is better but if the wall gets built it will be a force multiplier.

[Zippyjuan]

Are they coming in illegally? In what numbers?

Actually more have been leaving than coming. Legally and illegally.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/


More Mexicans Leaving Than Coming to the U.S.

Net Loss of 140,000 from 2009 to 2014; Family Reunification Top Reason for Return

More Mexican immigrants have returned to Mexico from the U.S. than have migrated here since the end of the Great Recession, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from both countries. The same data sources also show the overall flow of Mexican immigrants between the two countries is at its smallest since the 1990s, mostly due to a drop in the number of Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S.

From 2009 to 2014, 1 million Mexicans and their families (including U.S.-born children) left the U.S. for Mexico, according to data from the 2014 Mexican National Survey of Demographic Dynamics (ENADID). U.S. census data for the same period show an estimated 870,000 Mexican nationals left Mexico to come to the U.S., a smaller number than the flow of families from the U.S. to Mexico.

and:

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2016/09/PH_2016.09.20_Unauthorized-01.png

[oyarde]

I have spent time in El Salvador . There is nothing positive about MS 13 or any illegals gang activity within the US, these people have nothing to offer that improves life for those around them . Nothing. Do not be fooled by misinformation .

[Anti Federalist]

As for schooling, crime is most closely tied to poverty.

This is incorrect.

Poor reasoning, planning and impulse control is what makes one poor.

These factors also tend increase crime.

[timosman]

Poor reasoning, planning and impulse control is what makes one poor.

It might be news to Zippy's department. The next thing you know they might all quit.:cool:

[euphemia]

As for schooling, crime is most closely tied to poverty.

Thomas Soweto says poverty doesn’t cause crime. Rather, crime causes poverty.