Trump Toying with the Unthinkable

[AuH20]

I'll move his grade from a C+ to an A-, if he pulls this off.

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[Swordsmyth]

I'll move his grade from a C+ to an A-, if he pulls this off.

1012797391412527105

BRING THEM HOME!

[AuH20]

BRING THEM HOME!

A move of this significance would indicate two things:

(1) Putin is our ally (as in the regular Americans) and poses no threat to Europe
(2) The military is taking China more seriously

[Swordsmyth]

A move of this significance would indicate two things:

(1) Putin is our ally (as in the regular Americans) and poses no threat to Europe
(2) The military is taking China more seriously

You forgot some:

(3) Europe is our enemy
(4) Keeping troops in Europe is too expensive
(5) Trump doesn't care about maintaining the empire (our bases in Germany are logistically important to our global overreach)

[RJB]

Whether he means it or not, I must hand it to Trump. Nothing is off the table. No other president has had the balls to even hint at it. I bet the "progressives" will lose their minds over this as they do with everything.

[euphemia]

Whether he means it or not, I must hand it to Trump. Nothing is off the table. No other president has had the balls to even hint at it. I bet the "progressives" will lose their minds over this as they do with everything.

This is why Trump keeps stirring the media pot on so many fringe issues. I keep telling you all this. And time after time he serves up something totally different and often in agreement with liberty principles. It just goes to show you how true principles are not some kind of political construct. They work because they are true.

[timosman]

You forgot some:

(3) Europe is our enemy
(4) Keeping troops in Europe is too expensive
(5) Trump doesn't care about maintaining the empire (our bases in Germany are logistically important to our global overreach)

I take 3.

[Jamesiv1]

I feel a trembling in the force (aka the MAGA)

Arise my pants, gloriously.

[timosman]

I feel a trembling in the force (aka the MAGA)

Arise my pants, gloriously.

Are you OK, comrade?:cool:

[Jamesiv1]

Are you OK, comrade?:cool:
I had to step away from the computer for a moment. I felt a swoon coming on at the thought of Trump's majestic balls withdrawing the troops from Europe (starting with Germany).

[timosman]

What if all our troops are deployed by the deep state?:eek:

[Swordsmyth]

I feel a trembling in the force (aka the MAGA)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA0kNGaYrtg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDYNVH0U3cs

[RJB]

This is why Trump keeps stirring the media pot on so many fringe issues. I keep telling you all this. And time after time he serves up something totally different and often in agreement with liberty principles. It just goes to show you how true principles are not some kind of political construct. They work because they are true.

Back in 2015/16 I actually argued on this forum that I thought Bernie Sanders was the lesser of evils between him and Trump. I argued that at least he was an honest socialist and we'd have an honest discussion for a change. I was really hoping for a Rand vs Sanders debate. That would have really discussed the role of government.

But our country doesn't seem to want that.

However we got stuck with Trump. I didn't trust him at all. I still would rather have Ron or Rand, but Trump is really the best we can hope for at this moment. That's not really a complement towards Trump but a lamentation towards the mentality of the nation. I have been pleasantly surprised on somethings he has done, and sorely disappointed on other things, but all in all, (I never thought I would say this after Rand was out of the running) we lucked out in 2016.

[Swordsmyth]

Back in 2015/16 I actually argued on this forum that I thought Bernie Sanders was the lesser of evils between him and Trump. I argued that at least he was an honest socialist and we'd have an honest discussion for a change. I was really hoping for a Rand vs Sanders debate. That would have really discussed the role of government.

But our country doesn't seem to want that.

However we got stuck with Trump. I didn't trust him at all. I still would rather have Ron or Rand, but Trump is really the best we can hope for at this moment. That's not really a complement towards Trump but a lamentation towards the mentality of the nation. I have been pleasantly surprised on somethings he has done, and sorely disappointed on other things, but all in all, (I never thought I would say this after Rand was out of the running) we lucked out in 2016.

Trump was not the lesser of two evils as I too thought, he was the least of all possible goods.

[thoughtomator]

The key European enemy of the US is not Russia, but Germany.

If you look at the Europe-Russia history, from Russia's side it is almost exclusively "being invaded from the West" and not "invading Europe from the east".

Napoleon and Hitler both choosing to invade Russia, and both being defeated as a direct result of that choice, are could well be the two most significant events other than the founding of the Rome in the continent's history.

Russia was even invaded by the US, most people don't know this. We occupied Archangelsk for a short time at the end of WW1.

Germany, meanwhile, seems to think it has a divine right to rule the continent and repeatedly attempts to do so, the EU being only the latest incarnation of their imperial dreams.

So realpolitik-wise, Russia doesn't require containment. They already have far more territory than they can reasonably populate. It's Germany which is the engine of destruction in modern Europe, time and time again, as is once again evident in the present day German-led EU treatment of southern and central European nations.

Moreover, Russia maintains its Western heritage while the West is actively trying to destroy it. So for restorers of Western culture, and really anyone who understands the role Russia has played in European history, Russia is a natural ally.

The rise of China is the story of this century and we would be wise, and the Russians would be wise, to make common cause to not end up subject to Chinese power.

[timosman]

Trump was not the lesser of two evils as I too thought, he was the least of all possible goods.

This country would truly suck under Clinton's regime as the recent events have shown. Even Zippy wouldn't be happy.:cool:

[AuH20]

This country would truly suck under Clinton's regime as the recent events have shown. Even Zippy wouldn't be happy.:cool:

Clinton would have ushered forth an honest to god Civil War. We saw what they did in Waco. One of those incidents would have lit up the countryside because people hate their guts.

[Swordsmyth]

The key European enemy of the US is not Russia, but Germany.

If you look at the Europe-Russia history, from Russia's side it is almost exclusively "being invaded from the West" and not "invading Europe from the east".

Napoleon and Hitler both choosing to invade Russia, and both being defeated as a direct result of that choice, are could well be the two most significant events other than the founding of the Rome in the continent's history.

Russia was even invaded by the US, most people don't know this. We occupied Archangelsk for a short time at the end of WW1.

Germany, meanwhile, seems to think it has a divine right to rule the continent and repeatedly attempts to do so, the EU being only the latest incarnation of their imperial dreams.

So realpolitik-wise, Russia doesn't require containment. They already have far more territory than they can reasonably populate. It's Germany which is the engine of destruction in modern Europe, time and time again, as is once again evident in the present day German-led EU treatment of southern and central European nations.

Moreover, Russia maintains its Western heritage while the West is actively trying to destroy it. So for restorers of Western culture, and really anyone who understands the role Russia has played in European history, Russia is a natural ally.

The rise of China is the story of this century and we would be wise, and the Russians would be wise, to make common cause to not end up subject to Chinese power.

Don't forget Perfidious Albion, they may well be a greater threat than Germany with their machinations, if not then they certainly are enemy #2.

[enhanced_deficit]

(3) Europe is our enemy
...

The only ally that sent large number of troops to stand with America on frontlines during Iraqi Freedom war in our hour need was European.
We didn't see even a single Saudi soldier standing with American troops on Iraqi front lines despite media's nonstop churn of calling them our closest ally. Trump called his visit to Saudi second most important day of his life.

[Swordsmyth]

The only ally that sent large number of troops to stand with America on frontlines during Iraqi Freedom war in our hour need was European.
We didn't see even a single Saudi soldier standing with American troops on Iraqi front lines despite media's nonstop churn of calling them our closest ally. Trump called his visit to Saudi second most important day of his life.

That doesn't mean they aren't our enemy, the relationship is complicated.

[thoughtomator]

Don't forget Perfidious Albion, they may well be a greater threat than Germany with their machinations, if not then they certainly are enemy #2.

Perfidious they are but quite weak on their own. They will be a 15 minute problem if it comes to that.

[Brian4Liberty]

Who to be friends with? German Hillary or Putin? Such difficult choices.

[Champ]

When Trump was "toying" with the idea of withdrawing troops out of Syria and starting a drawing down of our presence in that area, there was almost without hesitation a chemical attack, lots of pictures of children and wounded civilians, and the MSM and the pentagon quickly stated it was none other than an attack carried out by the Syrian army forces under the guidance of Assad.

Does that mean, that we will get some kind of attack by Russia coming soon to an innocent European city near you, to demonstrate the desperate need for our constant presence in that country? I was waiting for North Korea to suddenly declare war on the United States a few days before the summit, and that didn't happen, so maybe we will get lucky.

[AuH20]

When Trump was "toying" with the idea of withdrawing troops out of Syria and starting a drawing down of our presence in that area, there was almost without hesitation a chemical attack, lots of pictures of children and wounded civilians, and the MSM and the pentagon quickly stated it was none other than an attack carried out by the Syrian army forces under the guidance of Assad.

Does that mean, that we will get some kind of attack by Russia coming soon to an innocent European city near you, to demonstrate the desperate need for our constant presence in that country? I was waiting for North Korea to suddenly declare war on the United States a few days before the summit, and that didn't happen, so maybe we will get lucky.

Quite possible.

Putin and his people are the ones that 'got away'. They will do all in their power to prevent an alliance from being cemented.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVw7tO_Nyo4

[angelatc]

He ran on this platform. If he can pull it off without pissing off his base, I will give him props.

[Jan2017]

Some of the USA troop deployments at start of Trump administration in 2017 . . .

"Let's do the numbers"

39,345 Japan
34,805 Germany
23,468 Korean pennisula (South Korea)
9,294 Afghanistan
2,234 Turkey
oh . . .
59 Mexico

Some highlights :
About 200,000 USA troops worldwide in 177 countries.

"There was no shortage of cuts proposed in Trump's budget for 2018, which was released earlier this week.
However, one of the few departments that did not receive a haircut was the Department of Defense.
If the proposed budget ultimately passes in Congress, the DoD would be allocated an extra $54 billion in federal funding - a 10% increase that would be one of the largest one-year defense budget increases in American History."

Even before the $54 billion budget increase proposal for FY2018, the United States spends more on defense
than the next seven nations combined.

The increase in USA defense spending for FY2018 is equivalent to the entire UK defense budget.

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-personnel-deployments-by-country-2017-3

[enhanced_deficit]

As long as he doesn't toy with conservatives emotions on things like global MIC/military expansion, path to DACA, gun control, big gummit spending, expansive police state/civil liberties etc, things should remain fine.

That said, actions speak louder than words.

Trump is sending more than 3,000 troops to Afghanistan

Sep 19, 2017 - Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis announced on September 18 that the US will send more than 3,000 troops to Afghanistan in an effort to win ...

[Anti Globalist]

It'll be great if this happens.

[XNavyNuke]

Whether he means it or not, I must hand it to Trump. Nothing is off the table. No other president has had the balls to even hint at it. I bet the "progressives" will lose their minds over this as they do with everything.

PDJT is so far inside the swamp's OODA loop they look like Edwin Abbott's Flatlander's trying to grasp a Mobius Strip.

XNN

[TheTexan]

If we withdraw our troops from Germany, won't they just start gassing Jews again?

[Swordsmyth]

If we withdraw our troops from Germany, won't they just start gassing Jews again?
Our troops wouldn't do that even if they weren't stationed in Germany from time to time.

[dannno]

Our troops wouldn't do that even if they weren't stationed in Germany from time to time.

He means the Germans.

[TheTexan]

Our troops wouldn't do that even if they weren't stationed in Germany from time to time.

It's a good thing then that they get rotated out every few years.

[Swordsmyth]

He means the Germans.
I know.

[Pauls' Revere]

A move like this would end Socialism in Europe, my theory is that this would push Europe into a political union. Where say for example Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, form one nation. Different from the E.U. it could be called Euro West. One currency, one form of government. They all vote for a leader of this new nation with each leader from the current countries campaigning for votes. A huge constitutional parliamentary system.

realDonaldTrump End Socialism in Europe, close all American bases in Europe. Time they defend themselves.

[Champ]

Hopefully Rand, while he has Trump's attention, is sending him every debate video clip made during both the 2008 and 2012 campaigns by all of us and the interwebs about all of the needless bases and military expansionism over the previous 70 years. Not that I'm expecting it, but if he is willing to draw down out of a few countries, maybe he will draw down in some other areas.

[Stratovarious]

Bring our troops home from around the globe.
End our World Police role.
-
Once Trump secured the nomination I supported him 100%,
not based on lesser of any evils, rather the promises he
made ( right , we know they all lie, but they were the best):
-
Promises as I remember them;
@Hillary is going to jail (de facto)
@Bring our troops home
@GUT THE IRS (we got a tax break instead, woopdidoo)
@KILL OBAMACARE (rhetoric morphed into fix, grrr, ,
he did end the mandate' which is great, but can return,
the beast is still alive)
-
Prosecuting Hillary would have prevented Russia Gate
and endless Trump assaults, he failed, allowing the
preemptive and effective strike from Hillary and her
deep state operatives.
Until Hillary, Comey, Mueller , Holder, Lynch etc are in
Prison or stripped of any and all authority, nothing will
change, we do know though that Hillary (though guilty of espionage)
will never see the inside of a Prison cell, no one at the top
ever does, they will offer up a low level lackey
though and claim and 'justice prevails' , 'we' will buy it.

[RJB]

PDJT is so far inside the swamp's OODA loop they look like Edwin Abbott's Flatlander's trying to grasp a Mobius Strip.

XNN

I didn't say whether he was in the swamp or not, I just stated that he stirred the pot like it hasn't been stirred in a while.

[nbhadja]

Trump just tweeted this today:


Donald J. Trump
‏
Verified account

@realDonaldTrump
25m25 minutes ago
More
....We are substantially subsidizing the Militaries of many VERY rich countries all over the world, while at the same time these countries take total advantage of the U.S., and our TAXPAYERS, on Trade. General Mattis did not see this as a problem. I DO, and it is being fixed!

He is clearly talking about Germany, Japan, other European countries etc. He did not say it will be fixed as he has said in the past...he said it IS being fixed. I think the pull out from these countries will happen soon unless they agree to pay us massive amounts of money or give us a massive unfair onesided trade deal in our favor (unlikely).

[nobody's_hero]

A move like this would end Socialism in Europe, my theory is that this would push Europe into a political union. Where say for example Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, form one nation. Different from the E.U. it could be called Euro West. One currency, one form of government. They all vote for a leader of this new nation with each leader from the current countries campaigning for votes. A huge constitutional parliamentary system.

realDonaldTrump End Socialism in Europe, close all American bases in Europe. Time they defend themselves.

You said, "different from the E.U." but, you pretty much just described the E.U., minus the 'ending socialism' bit. I don't think there will be any multi-national federation if socialism falls in Europe. The whole point of the E.U. was to promote socialism, to give economically weaker nations the power to vote themselves money from the stronger ones.

[Pauls' Revere]

You said, "different from the E.U." but, you pretty much just described the E.U., minus the 'ending socialism' bit. I don't think there will be any multi-national federation if socialism falls in Europe. The whole point of the E.U. was to promote socialism, to give economically weaker nations the power to vote themselves money from the stronger ones.

Your right, I was trying to figure out what form would replace the E.U. model under a political union given that they have different leaders now. Unless they keep the socialist model and print fiat Euro's to pay for it all plus the increase in defense they would need. But wait, that almost sounds like a country I know.

[XNavyNuke]

Your right, I was trying to figure out what form would replace the E.U. model under a political union given that they have different leaders now. Unless they keep the socialist model and print fiat Euro's to pay for it all plus the increase in defense they would need. But wait, that almost sounds like a country I know.

I don't see them paying for their own defense. The point of NATO is a promise that the unkempt, bad mouthed cowboys will arrive over the western horizon in the nick of time.

XNN

[Swordsmyth]

I don't see them paying for their own defense. The point of NATO is a promise that the unkempt, bad mouthed cowboys will arrive over the western horizon in the nick of time.

XNN
NATO needs to end.
With Mattis gone it might.

[PAF]

Bring them home. That does not mean redeploy to central/south Americas in order to move forward with one world government.

I received an email from a PA rep (D). He feels that USMCA does not go far enough to provide “equal pay”, therefore is holding off until more/better language is put in.

[Swordsmyth]

Bring them home. That does not mean redeploy to central/south Americas in order to move forward with one world government.

I received an email from a PA rep (D). He feels that USMCA does not go far enough to provide “equal pay”, therefore is holding off until more/better language is put in.
Any NO vote is good for us.

[Pauls' Revere]

I don't see them paying for their own defense. The point of NATO is a promise that the unkempt, bad mouthed cowboys will arrive over the western horizon in the nick of time.

XNN

NATO is a Cold War relic. We don't need NATO if we have strong alliances in place.

The combined military spending of all NATO members constitutes over 70% of the global total.[6] Members have committed to reach or maintain defense spending of at least 2% of GDP by 2024.[7][8]

The collapse of the Warsaw Pact in 1989-1991 removed the de facto main adversary of NATO and caused a strategic re-evaluation of NATO's purpose, nature, tasks, and their focus on the continent of Europe. This shift started with the 1990 signing in Paris of the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe between NATO and the Soviet Union, which mandated specific military reductions across the continent that continued after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in December 1991.[16] At that time, European countries accounted for 34 percent of NATO's military spending; by 2012, this had fallen to 21 percent.[17] NATO also began a gradual expansion to include newly autonomous Central and Eastern European nations, and extended its activities into political and humanitarian situations that had not formerly been NATO concerns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

[timosman]

NATO is a Cold War relic. We don't need NATO if we have strong alliances in place.

The combined military spending of all NATO members constitutes over 70% of the global total.[6] Members have committed to reach or maintain defense spending of at least 2% of GDP by 2024.[7][8]

The collapse of the Warsaw Pact in 1989-1991 removed the de facto main adversary of NATO and caused a strategic re-evaluation of NATO's purpose, nature, tasks, and their focus on the continent of Europe. This shift started with the 1990 signing in Paris of the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe between NATO and the Soviet Union, which mandated specific military reductions across the continent that continued after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in December 1991.[16] At that time, European countries accounted for 34 percent of NATO's military spending; by 2012, this had fallen to 21 percent.[17] NATO also began a gradual expansion to include newly autonomous Central and Eastern European nations, and extended its activities into political and humanitarian situations that had not formerly been NATO concerns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

Seems NATO is a typical bureaucracy. Always vying for more power. :cool:

[Pauls' Revere]

Seems NATO is a typical bureaucracy. Always vying for more power. :cool:

Right, they have to try and justify their existence even though the ending is long overdue. Its a matter of bureaucratic self defense and self preservation in which they manufacture a need they supposedly can fill.