Immigration To The United States Is A "Human Right"

[aGameOfThrones]

So what he has to say is likely to become the official policy of the Mexican government in the very near future, and that is quite frightening because he is a crazed radical leftist and an extremely bold proponent of illegal immigration to the United States. As I wrote about yesterday, Mexico has begun the process of a complete and total societal meltdown, and right now chaos reigns supreme along the U.S.-Mexico border. It would be extremely helpful to have a Mexican president that would be committed to restoring order along the border, but instead AMLO has boldly declared that immigration to the United States is a “human right” and he is encouraging more immigrants to start pouring into the U.S. illegally…


Mexican presidential candidate Andrés Manuel López Obrador (AMLO) called for mass immigration to the United States during a speech Tuesday declaring it a “human right we will defend” for all North Americans.

“And soon, very soon — after the victory of our movement — we will defend all the migrants in the American continent and all the migrants in the world,” Obrador said, adding that immigrants “must leave their towns and find a life in the United States.”

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-23/mexicos-next-president-boldly-declares-immigration-united-states-human-right

[Swordsmyth]

Many on this site agree.:rolleyes:

This is a declaration of war.

[Swordsmyth]

Mexican legislators this week proposed (http://comunicacion.senado.gob.mx/index.php/informacion/comision-permanente/boletines-permanente/41183) ending cooperation with the US on immigration, counterterrorism, and fighting organized crime "as long as President Donald Trump does not act with the respect that migrants deserve."
The proposal was made on Wednesday by the Mexican Congress' Permanent Commission, which meets while Congress is in recess, and asks the executive branch to "consider the possibility of withdrawing from any bilateral cooperation scheme" with the US on those issues.
Mexican legislators called on their US counterparts to "end the inhumane and criminal action of separating migrant families, taking into account the best interests of the children and giving priority to the respect of human rights."

While announcing the proposal, Ernesto Cordero Arroyo, a senator for the conservative National Action Party, said the US "is a partner, allied in diverse causes and a friend that doesn't deserve a government like that of Donald Trump," adding that Mexico would not support a country that "systematically violates human rights and that doesn't have respect for the life and dignity of people."


Cordero said Trump "incentivizes and defends a discourse of hate inside and outside of his country," encouraging racists groups and generating stereotypes of minorities, and that the US president has started a "trade war" through tariffs and rejected international cooperation, citing the US's withdrawal from the Paris climate accord.
Other Mexican officials have criticized Trump's immigration policy. Foreign Minister Luis Videgaray, who has developed a close relationship (http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-kushner-mexico-dealings-could-undercut-diplomatic-ties-2018-2) with Trump's son-in-law and adviser Jared Kushner, condemned (https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/19/americas/mexico-minister-immigration-border-separation/index.html) the separation policy as "cruel and inhumane" on Tuesday.

Victor Manuel Giorgana — the president of the foreign-relations committee in Mexico's lower house and a member of the governing Institutional Revolutionary Party — said Trump had not done enough to protect migrant children and that Trump only backed down in order further his political agenda, namely securing funding for a border wall.


"The situation didn't change in any way, except that [the children] are not separated," he told newspaper Milenio (http://www.milenio.com/politica/congreso/electorero-chantajista-decreto-trump-victor-manuel-giorgana), adding that those children would still be held in "inhumane" conditions.
The senate commission's proposal is not the first of its kind.
In a nonbinding resolution approved earlier this year, Mexican senators condemned Trump's decision to deploy troops (http://www.businessinsider.com/mexico-strike-back-trump-sends-national-guard-border-2018-4) to the US-Mexico border, where several thousand are still stationed in limited roles (http://www.businessinsider.com/soldiers-at-border-doing-menial-tasks-to-avoid-incidents-and-trouble-2018-6).
In that resolution, senators urged Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto to suspend bilateral cooperation with the US "on matters of migration and the fight against transnational organized crime as long as President Donald Trump does not conduct himself with the civility and the respect that the people of Mexico deserve."

More at: http://www.businessinsider.com/mexico-officials-propose-end-to-security-cooperation-over-trump-policy-2018-6

Put troops on the border now, declare war if necessary and then take up a defensive posture.

[AuH20]

Real pieces of garbage declaring someone else's property theirs. This is glorious.

[timosman]

They just repeat US leftists talking points.

[Brian4Liberty]

They just repeat US leftists talking points.

Partners in communist reconquista.

[Brian4Liberty]

Mexican presidential candidate Andrés Manuel López Obrador (AMLO) called for mass immigration to the United States

Some Presidential candidate. "Vote for me, I want you all to leave the country."

Although this may be a play on a Trump campaign slogan. "We will have socialism, and the Americans will pay for it!"

[Pauls' Revere]

So, I don't get it. Why go to another country? Instead, recreate Mexico into a country based on American principles? wtf?

and, since he has made this declaration isn't he essentially telling them to do so. You have a right to Liberty, etc.. just not here in Mexico. Unless Mexico turns itself inside out.

[timosman]

So, I don't get it. Why go to another country? Instead, recreate Mexico into a country based on American principles? wtf?

Yankees stole all our wealth. We need to take it back.:cool:

[Swordsmyth]

So, I don't get it. Why go to another country? Instead, recreate Mexico into a country based on American principles? wtf?

They want Mexico the way it is with America's wealth, they will either take America's wealth back to Mexico or turn America into Mexico.

It won't last long either way but they don't understand that.

[euphemia]

Of course it's a human right. To everyone. A just immigration policy would have one law governing all. One standard. Who knows? The next Swiss research scientist here for grad school might just discover a cure for AIDS. They should not have to pay thousands of dollars and wait years fro a green card so they can have actual jobs.

[VIDEODROME]

So, I don't get it. Why go to another country? Instead, recreate Mexico into a country based on American principles? wtf?

and, since he has made this declaration isn't he essentially telling them to do so. You have a right to Liberty, etc.. just not here in Mexico. Unless Mexico turns itself inside out.

It does seem like a nationally embarrassing stance to have.

Nudging the Mexican people to pursue a direction like this could backfire horribly. Will they be exploited by smugglers or will more semi-truck trailers full of dead Mexicans turn up?

Even if they make it here they'll probably get crap wages or regularly threatened by employers to work or be turned in for deportation.

[Swordsmyth]

Of course it's a human right. To everyone. A just immigration policy would have one law governing all. One standard. Who knows? The next Swiss research scientist here for grad school might just discover a cure for AIDS. They should not have to pay thousands of dollars and wait years fro a green card so they can have actual jobs.

No, it is not a human right, we have a right to limit who comes here to protect out political culture and thereby our rights.

[aGameOfThrones]

Because Mexico is a shithole?

[Schifference]

We need a wall. We need a big wall. The biggest best most awesome wall.

[AuH20]

Of course it's a human right. To everyone. A just immigration policy would have one law governing all. One standard. Who knows? The next Swiss research scientist here for grad school might just discover a cure for AIDS. They should not have to pay thousands of dollars and wait years fro a green card so they can have actual jobs.

Until you introduce the welfare state. That's where it becomes an abomination.

[Swordsmyth]

Until you introduce the welfare state. That's where it becomes an abomination.

It still isn't a human right without the welfare state.

[Schifference]

Put all illegals that cross the southern border into a floatable device and put them in the water a couple hundred yards off a Mexican shore. Keep families together.

[parocks]

Declare War, take 10 miles of Mexico running along the border, and then there is 10 miles of "do not enter, war zone" where everyone gets shot - or not. But whatever it is, the migrants stay in Mexico. Ship them home immediately. Whatever, no US for you.

We have endless shitty war in the Middle East, for no point except that we want those countries to all have hand picked by Israel leaders.

Maybe we take all the soldiers out of the Middle East and put them on the border.

[oyarde]

Since the dawn of time there has not been a real "right" to invite yourself somewhere you are not desired .

[VIDEODROME]

Not being serious here, but sometimes I wonder what would happen if we set aside space and just took in all of them. Just put up a big sign that says "All Mexicans Welcome". Just come in and get passed through the gate after some vetting for criminals or drug dealers, but basically take all their decent citizens. There wouldn't be a need for them to send earned money back home either because their family would all be here.

If we cut the crap in the Middle East, could we afford to soak up the best of Mexico's population leaving the rest of that country to the Drug Cartels and organized crime basically accelerating things until the place crumbles around this new President? Take them all in and turn Mexico inside out. Maybe even encourage all the displaced Syrians to move to Mexico.

Again, not a serious policy proposal, just an amusing thought. It would be like killing them with kindness.

[Swordsmyth]

Not being serious here, but sometimes I wonder what would happen if we set aside space and just took in all of them. Just put up a big sign that says "All Mexicans Welcome". Just come in and get passed through the gate after some vetting for criminals or drug dealers, but basically take all their decent citizens. There wouldn't be a need for them to send earned money back home either because their family would all be here.

If we cut the crap in the Middle East, could we afford to soak up the best of Mexico's population leaving the rest of that country to the Drug Cartels and organized crime basically accelerating things until the place crumbles around this new President? Take them all in and turn Mexico inside out. Maybe even encourage all the displaced Syrians to move to Mexico.

Again, not a serious policy proposal, just an amusing thought. It would be like killing them with kindness.

They would vote Demoncrat and turn us into a communist country.

[VIDEODROME]

They would vote Demoncrat and turn us into a communist country.

I'm not saying technically to make them full Citizens, but with that many yeah there could be voter shenanigans.

Also, I'm not sure all Mexicans are Leftists. I think many could be Social Conservatives.

Again though, for some reason I just think out would be amusing to suck out their population and let Mexico as a nation shrivel up and waste away. Perhaps to be later rebuilt after the Drug Dealers kill eachother off.

[Swordsmyth]

I'm not saying technically to make them full Citizens, but with that many yeah there could be voter shenanigans.
With that many let in the Demoncrats would not only help them vote illegally, they would start a campaign to grant them all citizenship.
I can hear it now: "Republican racists want to keep brown people down as second class humans, end apartheid!"


Also, I'm not sure all Mexicans are Leftists. I think many could be Social Conservatives.
The communist in the OP is way ahead in the polls down there, even the social conservatives are socialists.
It doesn't take all of them either, we are at risk from our own Demoncrats turning us into a communist country already.




Again though, for some reason I just think out would be amusing to suck out their population and let Mexico as a nation shrivel up and waste away. Perhaps to be later rebuilt after the Drug Dealers kill eachother off.

It is a funny idea.

[timosman]

Why would anyone, on the receiving end of this, want more competition?:D

[A Son of Liberty]

Since the dawn of time there has not been a real "right" to invite yourself somewhere you are not desired .

People have no right to encroach upon private property without the permission of the owner.

That's not in dispute.

How does your statement jive with that truth, exactly? I don't think it does...

[oyarde]

People have no right to encroach upon private property without the permission of the owner.

That's not in dispute.

How does your statement jive with that truth, exactly? I don't think it does...

My statement is the truth .

[Pauls' Revere]

I'm not saying technically to make them full Citizens, but with that many yeah there could be voter shenanigans.

Also, I'm not sure all Mexicans are Leftists. I think many could be Social Conservatives.

Again though, for some reason I just think out would be amusing to suck out their population and let Mexico as a nation shrivel up and waste away. Perhaps to be later rebuilt after the Drug Dealers kill eachother off.

I see your proposal now! Wow that's clever! So, we take them in through a vetting process and sit back and watch Mexico destroy itself from the inside out between Drug Cartels and a corrupt military junta. Then, when the Mexican civil war begins we watch as they kill themselves by the thousands and then in the name of National Security and stability in this hemisphere we have to intervene. In doing so we then establish an interim government monitored by the UN until free and democratic elections can take place. Of course we place candidates that support our government on the list of possible candidates and establish a government like Bautista in Cuba. Then, Mexico revolts against that US puppet government and gets backing from Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, Iran and possibly China. At this point they have gone full retard and become a communist state. Trumps idea of wall becomes prophetic and he goes down as one of the greatest presidents ever to have lived. Guard towers now stand at the ready with orders to kill on sight anyone crossing the border from either direction. It becomes the new DMZ and most heavily fortified borders in the world.

Something like that?

[spudea]

Nope. Nations have borders and laws. Any person that doesn't follow our laws does not have a right to immigrate here.

[timosman]

Nope. Nations have borders and laws. Any person that doesn't follow our laws does not have a right to immigrate here.

Reading Catch 22 should be mandatory for all new citizens.

[Pauls' Revere]

Question: If we got rid of birthright citizenship what would we put in place to determine citizenship?

[Schifference]

This is the hype that is necessary to make the future United Countries of the World the greatest civilization in the Universe. We are all citizens of the world with the privileges that our fearless leaders grant us.

[A Son of Liberty]

My statement is the truth .

Oh. Well then. I'm convinced.

http://static1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Haha%252Bdoesn%252Bt%252Bfeel%252Blike%252Bit%252B but%252Balrighty%252Bthen%252Bthanks%252B_7ad33ce3 ec4fa130497c199e4e7eb651.gif

[Danke]

Question: If we got rid of birthright citizenship what would we put in place to determine citizenship?


Parent's citizenship. Like the way it used to be.

[Pauls' Revere]

Parent's citizenship. Like the way it used to be.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/us-citizenship-through-parents

Child born in U.S. becomes a U.S. citizen. Diplomat parents are exempt.

at least (1) parent U.S. citizen, child becomes citizen.

Child born in U.S. becomes citizen, However, parents are not U.S. citizens. 1) Does child become ward of the state, and parents deported? 2) Does child obtain dual citizenship and child and parents are deported? At age 18 then child can decide to become U.S. citizen or not?

So, end birthright citizenship (per Dr. Paul) and stick to parental citizenship.

[nikcers]

Citizenship is guaranteed for all those who join the space force right?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlT5xr5o7E4

[Pauls' Revere]

Citizenship is guaranteed for all those who join the space force right?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlT5xr5o7E4

I belive so, if you serve in the U.S. Forces it is counted as time in country. :)

[timosman]

I belive so, if you serve in the U.S. Forces it is counted as time in country. :)

ISIS members welcome.

[fisharmor]

Unmolested travel is a human right, one that the bulk of this site would disrespect at every turn just to keep the "political culture" which currently believes it's ok to force Christian bakers to provide products they find objectionable, and also currently believes it's perfectly acceptable for people to be executed by the cops for not following orders.

Let's forget for a second that this is the exact "political culture" that we're supposed to be preserving, and focus on the fact that few people here have the slightest idea what a right actually is.

Rights are inherent to humanity. They are not dependent on location. They are not contingent on what scrap of land you were born on.
If you do not support all humans having the same rights at all times and in all locations, you do not support the idea of rights. You are instead supporting the idea of state-distributed privileges.

Another right that precious few people here actually believe in is the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the brown people from down South who don't speak English and clean hotel rooms for a substandard wage have a human right to arms, as well.

The governments in their homelands are some of the only entities to have less respect for this right than you do.

You know what would be a really edgy idea (as opposed to the crap you guys are floating here) and still respects the human rights of not only the people immigrating here, but the people who live here as well?

Get this - so you can get a cheap AR for about $650, right? Do you realize that ICE has an annual budget - ANNUAL BUDGET mind you - that would buy almost 9 million AR rifles? Let's call it 8 million and spend the rest of ammo, and funnel those weapons into the hands of average citizens in the shithole countries they came from, and let them figure things out.

End the drug war at the same time and you could pump that number to 10 million rifles, easy. PER YEAR.

At the end of the day you either believe in liberty as a solution to life's problems, or you don't. The fact that you guys come here and regularly defend the welfare state in the process of trying to find a solution means you're all squarely in the latter category.

[nikcers]

ISIS members welcome.

Lets give ISIS a bunch of US military hardware that sounds like a great idea. You deserve a prize or something.

[Zippyjuan]

Unmolested travel is a human right, one that the bulk of this site would disrespect at every turn just to keep the "political culture" which currently believes it's ok to force Christian bakers to provide products they find objectionable, and also currently believes it's perfectly acceptable for people to be executed by the cops for not following orders.

Let's forget for a second that this is the exact "political culture" that we're supposed to be preserving, and focus on the fact that few people here have the slightest idea what a right actually is.

Rights are inherent to humanity. They are not dependent on location. They are not contingent on what scrap of land you were born on.
If you do not support all humans having the same rights at all times and in all locations, you do not support the idea of rights. You are instead supporting the idea of state-distributed privileges.

Another right that precious few people here actually believe in is the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the brown people from down South who don't speak English and clean hotel rooms for a substandard wage have a human right to arms, as well.

The governments in their homelands are some of the only entities to have less respect for this right than you do.

You know what would be a really edgy idea (as opposed to the crap you guys are floating here) and still respects the human rights of not only the people immigrating here, but the people who live here as well?

Get this - so you can get a cheap AR for about $650, right? Do you realize that ICE has an annual budget - ANNUAL BUDGET mind you - that would buy almost 9 million AR rifles? Let's call it 8 million and spend the rest of ammo, and funnel those weapons into the hands of average citizens in the $#@!hole countries they came from, and let them figure things out.

End the drug war at the same time and you could pump that number to 10 million rifles, easy. PER YEAR.

At the end of the day you either believe in liberty as a solution to life's problems, or you don't. The fact that you guys come here and regularly defend the welfare state in the process of trying to find a solution means you're all squarely in the latter category.

People want the state to protect their entitlements. They don't like to share. Rights don't apply to everybody. Though the should. Rights not available to everybody are entitlements.

I am entitled to a high paying job. The government should protect me from somebody willing to do the same work for less. That means tariffs and no immigration.

[nikcers]

People want the state to protect their entitlements. They don't like to share. Rights don't apply to everybody. Though the should. Rights not available to everybody are entitlements.

Rights that are not available to everybody are privileges, they are not available to non citizens. They are privileges that previous generations gave their blood for, they were not free.

[Ender]

Unmolested travel is a human right, one that the bulk of this site would disrespect at every turn just to keep the "political culture" which currently believes it's ok to force Christian bakers to provide products they find objectionable, and also currently believes it's perfectly acceptable for people to be executed by the cops for not following orders.

Let's forget for a second that this is the exact "political culture" that we're supposed to be preserving, and focus on the fact that few people here have the slightest idea what a right actually is.

Rights are inherent to humanity. They are not dependent on location. They are not contingent on what scrap of land you were born on.
If you do not support all humans having the same rights at all times and in all locations, you do not support the idea of rights. You are instead supporting the idea of state-distributed privileges.

Another right that precious few people here actually believe in is the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the brown people from down South who don't speak English and clean hotel rooms for a substandard wage have a human right to arms, as well.

The governments in their homelands are some of the only entities to have less respect for this right than you do.

You know what would be a really edgy idea (as opposed to the crap you guys are floating here) and still respects the human rights of not only the people immigrating here, but the people who live here as well?

Get this - so you can get a cheap AR for about $650, right? Do you realize that ICE has an annual budget - ANNUAL BUDGET mind you - that would buy almost 9 million AR rifles? Let's call it 8 million and spend the rest of ammo, and funnel those weapons into the hands of average citizens in the $#@!hole countries they came from, and let them figure things out.

End the drug war at the same time and you could pump that number to 10 million rifles, easy. PER YEAR.

At the end of the day you either believe in liberty as a solution to life's problems, or you don't. The fact that you guys come here and regularly defend the welfare state in the process of trying to find a solution means you're all squarely in the latter category.

Agree 1000%.

Rights are NOT given by the government- rights are inherent to all.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[nikcers]

Agree 1000%.

Rights are NOT given by the government- rights are inherent to all.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Well if they are so unalienable why are there so many aliens here smart guy?

[Ender]

Well if they are so unalienable why are there so many aliens here smart guy?

As a Cherokee do you really want me to answer that? ;)

[nikcers]

As a Cherokee do you really want me to answer that? ;)

Are you saying that there are no Aliens, because if we don't have an Alien problem then why do we have a Space force, smart guy?

[VIDEODROME]

Get this - so you can get a cheap AR for about $650, right? Do you realize that ICE has an annual budget - ANNUAL BUDGET mind you - that would buy almost 9 million AR rifles? Let's call it 8 million and spend the rest of ammo, and funnel those weapons into the hands of average citizens in the $#@!hole countries they came from, and let them figure things out.

End the drug war at the same time and you could pump that number to 10 million rifles, easy. PER YEAR.

I like this idea, but I will insist on all guns being embedded in guitar cases.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4010278/mg-guitar-case-o.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/j7Wk4zHKblOb6/giphy.gif

https://cs5.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm_an/2014-03_4/13951313932564.gif


https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/digital/video/hero/Movies/1995/B000KEK65U_Desperado_UXSY1._V391273870_RI_SX940_.j pg

[VIDEODROME]

I think some 'Rights' are really benefits of citizens and also necessary to have a reasonable legal system.



Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Is it a Human Right to be provided an attorney to advise you in a court of law instead of having to either represent yourself or go into debt if necessary to get legal help? Will we complain and say the poor attorney is being Conscripted or some attorney's freedom is infringed upon to provide this service?

Some Rights from our Humanity are recognized, but I there some made up Rights exist.

[euphemia]

Until you introduce the welfare state. That's where it becomes an abomination.

That's why I say with one law governing all. I have friends and neighbors from several different countries. They sold everything, got their documentation, and spent thousands to get here. They then waited years for green cards so they could work. Many of my neighbors fled Egypt for faith reasons. Coptic Christians are being killed with alarming regularity. The Muslims here get a lot of attention, but Arab born Christians, not so much.

One law. The same law for all. If undocumented people have the right to enter the United States, then I have the right to enter leave here to visit their countries without any kind of documentation. One law.

[Swordsmyth]

Unmolested travel is a human right, one that the bulk of this site would disrespect at every turn just to keep the "political culture" which currently believes it's ok to force Christian bakers to provide products they find objectionable, and also currently believes it's perfectly acceptable for people to be executed by the cops for not following orders.

Let's forget for a second that this is the exact "political culture" that we're supposed to be preserving, and focus on the fact that few people here have the slightest idea what a right actually is.
The rest of the world has a worse political culture and bad immigration policy has dramatically contributed to the sorry state of ours.


Rights are inherent to humanity. They are not dependent on location. They are not contingent on what scrap of land you were born on.
If you do not support all humans having the same rights at all times and in all locations, you do not support the idea of rights. You are instead supporting the idea of state-distributed privileges.
Some rights are based on ownership and only the owners have them, Americans own America and have a right to be here while others own other places and have a right to be there.


Another right that precious few people here actually believe in is the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the brown people from down South who don't speak English and clean hotel rooms for a substandard wage have a human right to arms, as well.

The governments in their homelands are some of the only entities to have less respect for this right than you do.
LOL, when have I ever claimed "brown people" don't have a right to arms?


You know what would be a really edgy idea (as opposed to the crap you guys are floating here) and still respects the human rights of not only the people immigrating here, but the people who live here as well?

Get this - so you can get a cheap AR for about $650, right? Do you realize that ICE has an annual budget - ANNUAL BUDGET mind you - that would buy almost 9 million AR rifles? Let's call it 8 million and spend the rest of ammo, and funnel those weapons into the hands of average citizens in the $#@!hole countries they came from, and let them figure things out.

End the drug war at the same time and you could pump that number to 10 million rifles, easy. PER YEAR.

At the end of the day you either believe in liberty as a solution to life's problems, or you don't. The fact that you guys come here and regularly defend the welfare state in the process of trying to find a solution means you're all squarely in the latter category.
Great idea there, foreign interventionism...................I wonder why I never thought of it.

[Swordsmyth]

Rights that are not available to everybody are privileges, they are not available to non citizens. They are privileges that previous generations gave their blood for, they were not free.
I think you are discussing Ownership RIGHTS that are inherited, privileges are something that can be withdrawn at the whim of whatever entity grants them.

[Swordsmyth]

I think some 'Rights' are really benefits of citizens and also necessary to have a reasonable legal system.



Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Is it a Human Right to be provided an attorney to advise you in a court of law instead of having to either represent yourself or go into debt if necessary to get legal help? Will we complain and say the poor attorney is being Conscripted or some attorney's freedom is infringed upon to provide this service?

Some Rights from our Humanity are recognized, but I there some made up Rights exist.

That one may be an artificial right but it is a good one, tyranny would be easy without it.

P.S. the attorney isn't conscripted, he is paid with tax money taken from working citizens.

[nikcers]

I think you are discussing Ownership RIGHTS that are inherited, privileges are something that can be withdrawn at the whim of whatever entity grants them.

They already have proven they can with prohibitions and patriot acts and Taxes in name only, the justice system isn't what it should and what it was intended to be. It isn't perfect but its become more perverse and distorted from its original intent.

[VIDEODROME]

That one may be an artificial right but it is a good one, tyranny would be easy without it.

P.S. the attorney isn't conscripted, he is paid with tax money taken from working citizens.

I guess the idea if 'Conscription' partly came more from the Jury summons who I think get a tiny stipend for the trouble.

It's not that big a deal I guess and people with a reasonable excuse can try to get out of it.

[oyarde]

Question: If we got rid of birthright citizenship what would we put in place to determine citizenship?

If at least one parent is a citizen . Otherwise you cannot be . That was the original intent .

[oyarde]

People can babble on all they like about unrestricted movement and it means nothing . Sounds good , right . Means nothing . In a place that is desired to be there will be no unclaimed land most likely . You would be an unwanted trespasser who is violating the property of others. There is no unclaimed land here at my place, I own it . I have nothing against immigrants but there we be none taken in here nor will I ever be supporting any or any others .

[Swordsmyth]

They already have proven they can with prohibitions and patriot acts and Taxes in name only, the justice system isn't what it should and what it was intended to be. It isn't perfect but its become more perverse and distorted from its original intent.
But they are wrong when they violate our rights, a privilege could be withdrawn without the guilt.

[Swordsmyth]

People can babble on all they like about unrestricted movement and it means nothing . Sounds good , right . Means nothing . In a place that is desired to be there will be no unclaimed land most likely . You would be an unwanted trespasser who is violating the property of others. There is no unclaimed land here at my place, I own it . I have nothing against immigrants but there we be none taken in here nor will I ever be supporting any or any others .

And nations exist and hold territorial rights collectively, anarchists try to deny it but it is how the world works and how it must work, we have a right to keep out people who will alter our politics for the worse and take away our rights.

[Pauls' Revere]

What if your "rights" are nothing but government selling points for the countries they represent?

https://www4.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+have+no+rights+george+carlin+youtube&&view=detail&mid=06F7E324804A3D80148306F7E324804A3D801483&&FORM=VRDGAR

Imagine each country as a used car salesman. Hey, come on over we have gun rights! and we'll let you speak your mind!

[Swordsmyth]

What if your "rights" are nothing but government selling points for the countries they represent?

https://www4.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+have+no+rights+george+carlin+youtube&&view=detail&mid=06F7E324804A3D80148306F7E324804A3D801483&&FORM=VRDGAR

Imagine each country as a used car salesman. Hey, come on over we have gun rights! and we'll let you speak your mind!

In a world without GOD and morality that would be the case.

[Pauls' Revere]

In a world without GOD and morality that would be the case.

It is the case, they are privileges. I'm becoming more aware of that each day.

[Swordsmyth]

It is the case, they are privileges. I'm becoming more aware of that each day.

In a certain practical sense when dealing with immoral GODless governments, but we fight for a reason and that reason is that we are right, GOD and morality do exist and we have GOD given rights.

[Pauls' Revere]

In a certain practical sense when dealing with immoral GODless governments, but we fight for a reason and that reason is that we are right, GOD and morality do exist and we have GOD given rights.

Which God? or God(s)? The Bible only list 10 rules, why only 10?

[Swordsmyth]

Which God? or God(s)? The Bible only list 10 rules, why only 10?
Those are the most basic and many others are the logical results of them.

[fisharmor]

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Is it a Human Right to be provided an attorney to advise you in a court of law instead of having to either represent yourself or go into debt if necessary to get legal help? Will we complain and say the poor attorney is being Conscripted or some attorney's freedom is infringed upon to provide this service?

Some Rights from our Humanity are recognized, but I there some made up Rights exist.

If some group claiming a monopoly on law is going to attempt to lock someone up in a rape cage, or potentially execute him, then yeah, it's kind of on them to make sure that person needs to be raped/executed.

The founders weren't stupid. This was written in there because they knew the whole point of having a monopoly legal system is to rape/execute people, plus a bunch of things we today would consider bona fide torture. I think they were generally more morally centered than people today and wrote that in there for no other reason than as a hindrance to torturing/executing people on a whim.

And let's stay on target here with rights: It is a human right to serve as an attorney without eight years of education and passing a bar exam.
If law as a profession was free, and if people who wanted to be lawyers had rights, then legal fees would be dictated by markets and therefore a fraction of their current cost... which would invalidate much of your concern.

[fisharmor]

People can babble on all they like about unrestricted movement and it means nothing . Sounds good , right . Means nothing . In a place that is desired to be there will be no unclaimed land most likely . You would be an unwanted trespasser who is violating the property of others. There is no unclaimed land here at my place, I own it . I have nothing against immigrants but there we be none taken in here nor will I ever be supporting any or any others .

So what you're saying is, you support border checks 100 miles away from a border.
That's the example I gave when I said unrestricted movement is a human right.
You took exception to that, even calling it "babble", and in the process, you came out 100% in favor of these border checks.

[fisharmor]

In a certain practical sense when dealing with immoral GODless governments, but we fight for a reason and that reason is that we are right, GOD and morality do exist and we have GOD given rights.

The God of the Bible specifically told people on several occasions to leave their country and go to another one where they were outsiders.

You do know that none of the stuff you support existed before 1875, right?

[oyarde]

So what you're saying is, you support border checks 100 miles away from a border.
That's the example I gave when I said unrestricted movement is a human right.
You took exception to that, even calling it "babble", and in the process, you came out 100% in favor of these border checks.

No I do not support that , but I also would not live within 100 miles of the border . I have no real interest in immigration at all.

[Swordsmyth]

The God of the Bible specifically told people on several occasions to leave their country and go to another one where they were outsiders.
GOD owns divine title to every inch of the world and he can grant or remove custody of any part of it he wants to.


You do know that none of the stuff you support existed before 1875, right?
Times change, back then there was less economic and philosophical difference between the US and the rest of the world and travel was more expensive, slower and more dangerous, also if there was a problem back then the people or the government of a country would just round up all foreigners on a racial and/or cultural basis and expel them.

[Swordsmyth]

So what you're saying is, you support border checks 100 miles away from a border.
That's the example I gave when I said unrestricted movement is a human right.
You took exception to that, even calling it "babble", and in the process, you came out 100% in favor of these border checks.

You don't get to say "unrestricted" and then claim you are only talking about checks 100 miles from the border, "unrestricted" means wide open borders and that is what you meant and what you argue for in many other posts.

[fisharmor]

GOD owns divine title to every inch of the world and he can grant or remove custody of any part of it he wants to.
Ok, I just want you to be consistent here. You seem to be saying God grants us rights, but those rights don't include free movement, and we are not free to move across an invisible line unless either God tells us to, or the state says it's ok.


Times change, back then there was less economic and philosophical difference between the US and the rest of the world and travel was more expensive, slower and more dangerous, also if there was a problem back then the people or the government of a country would just round up all foreigners on a racial and/or cultural basis and expel them.
First of all, no, absolutely and demonstrably incorrect. The Chinese that were specifically legislated against in 1875 were practically from another planet. They would have had zero interaction with Western culture.
Today, there is no "illegal" immigrant today who hasn't seen American TV and probably grew up watching the exact same cartoons you did. The best case you can make is that they have a false impression where everyone here is blond and beautiful and rich.

Second, are you waxing nostalgic about the time when you could round up ethnicities and kick them out? The legal approach to immigration is identical to the legal approach to gun control: both were instituted for racist reasons. The first laws in each category were specifically targeting minorities.
Times do change, but the fundamental reasons for immigration and gun controls do not.


You don't get to say "unrestricted" and then claim you are only talking about checks 100 miles from the border, "unrestricted" means wide open borders and that is what you meant and what you argue for in many other posts.
The point was directed to Oyarde who called my points "babble", and I was pointing out that logicially, if he was dismissing everything I said as no better than toddler talk, he was therefore supporting these border checks.
You don't get to say "I think everything you say is nonsense" and then claim that individual points made are not.

[pcosmar]

GOD owns divine title to every inch of the world and he can grant or remove custody of any part of it he wants to.



, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Luke 4
Full context

The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

I question your authority.

[TheCount]

Will we complain and say the poor attorney is being Conscripted or some attorney's freedom is infringed upon to provide this service?

Yeah, that's not how public defenders work. The government doesn't abduct a lawyer off of the street and assign them to a defendant.

[TheCount]

Question: If we got rid of birthright citizenship what would we put in place to determine citizenship?
Blood test to determine if they have American culture.

[TheCount]

So, end birthright citizenship (per Dr. Paul) and stick to parental citizenship.
I've lived in countries which operate this way. Several of them use it as a method to strengthen the nation's welfare state for the "right people" by creating a permanent underclass of (taxed) non-citizen residents. This quickly spirals into a police state the likes of which would give many posters here an erection.

I'm not particularly fond of birthright citizenship, but if we get rid of it, I think that all children of green card holders should receive citizenship. Temp visas not, generally.

[VIDEODROME]

Yeah, that's not how public defenders work. The government doesn't abduct a lawyer off of the street and assign them to a defendant.


I tossed that out like that because one of Rand Paul's complaints about a Right to Healthcare is that he as a doctor would be conscripted. I don't agree with it, but I wondered if others feel that a Right leads to people being conscripted to do a job.

[timosman]

Which God? or God(s)? The Bible only list 10 rules, why only 10?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8

[Swordsmyth]

Ok, I just want you to be consistent here. You seem to be saying God grants us rights, but those rights don't include free movement, and we are not free to move across an invisible line unless either God tells us to, or the state says it's ok.
Unless GOD or the current owners say it is ok.



First of all, no, absolutely and demonstrably incorrect. The Chinese that were specifically legislated against in 1875 were practically from another planet. They would have had zero interaction with Western culture.
Today, there is no "illegal" immigrant today who hasn't seen American TV and probably grew up watching the exact same cartoons you did. The best case you can make is that they have a false impression where everyone here is blond and beautiful and rich.
Almost all societies back then were some degree of minarchist and free-marketist, they had not developed the communism and nanny-statism that are ubiquitous in the rest of the world today, also I was talking about before the Chinese started coming, that is the era when travel technology became a game changer and the immigration laws were enacted in response to a flood of alien foreigners arriving and setting up "China Towns" where they slowed assimilation to a stand still.


Second, are you waxing nostalgic about the time when you could round up ethnicities and kick them out? The legal approach to immigration is identical to the legal approach to gun control: both were instituted for racist reasons. The first laws in each category were specifically targeting minorities.
Times do change, but the fundamental reasons for immigration and gun controls do not.
I didn't say that it was better to round them up and kick them out, I said that is how it was handled back then, controlling immigration in the first place is much better and more fair.
Racism has nothing to do with it either, the Chinese were targeted because as you pointed out their culture was particularly alien to ours and as I pointed out they were lumping up in "China Towns" and not assimilating, even if some people were racist back then it has nothing to do with me or modern conservatives, I don't want too many swedes allowed in any more than I want too many Chinese or too many Ethiopians or too many Russians or too many of any kind of foreigners.

[Swordsmyth]

Luke 4
Full context


I question your authority.
What authority?
I have no authority.
GOD may let the devil control most of the world most of the time but he has divine title to his creation and a perfect right to give stewardship over any part of it to anyone, he did so with the children of Israel in the days of Moses and Joshua.

[Swordsmyth]

I've lived in countries which operate this way. Several of them use it as a method to strengthen the nation's welfare state for the "right people" by creating a permanent underclass of (taxed) non-citizen residents. This quickly spirals into a police state the likes of which would give many posters here an erection.

I'm not particularly fond of birthright citizenship, but if we get rid of it, I think that all children of green card holders should receive citizenship. Temp visas not, generally.
Or you could give the children of green card holders their own green cards and they could qualify for citizenship just like their parents.

[fisharmor]

Unless GOD or the current owners say it is ok.
That's a convenient dodge. If I proclaim that agents of the state are not welcome on my property, it's not going to go well for me. The bottom line is, I pay property tax, which means it's not my property.
The state is the only real property owner, thus the state has final say over who can and cannot enter my property.
Every single one of your arguments leads directly to the overarching state you claim to be against. I'm not sure where you're getting lost on that.



Almost all societies back then were some degree of minarchist and free-marketist, they had not developed the communism and nanny-statism that are ubiquitous in the rest of the world today,
Dude, China was an empire that IIRC was still practicing legalism. We're talking about a society that pioneered the idea of rounding up all the dissenting scholars and burying them alive.


also I was talking about before the Chinese started coming, that is the era when travel technology became a game changer and the immigration laws were enacted in response to a flood of alien foreigners arriving and setting up "China Towns" where they slowed assimilation to a stand still.
I stand corrected, there's a good 40% of the time when your arguments lead directly to racism.


I didn't say that it was better to round them up and kick them out, I said that is how it was handled back then, controlling immigration in the first place is much better and more fair.
Racism has nothing to do with it either, the Chinese were targeted because as you pointed out their culture was particularly alien to ours and as I pointed out they were lumping up in "China Towns" and not assimilating, even if some people were racist back then it has nothing to do with me or modern conservatives, I don't want too many swedes allowed in any more than I want too many Chinese or too many Ethiopians or too many Russians or too many of any kind of foreigners.

This isn't some college professor redefining terms here to make the argument that it's racist not to go see Black Panther. This is a fellow libertarian pointing out the fact that being against a particular ethnicity simply because they are different is kind of the classic dictionary definition of racism.

[fisharmor]

I will, however, grant you that you could simply be anti-markets, because you don't trust "white" society to survive a market of ideas.
In the opinion of this free marketeer, if "white" society can't compete, it's unfit to exist.

[VIDEODROME]

Are things like ChinaTowns or Little Italys necessarily a bad thing in a country as large as ours?

I do think integration is kind of an issue, but it might be interesting to address that through partnership with these communities. For example if the criminal elements from their homelands try to move in as well like organized crime, drug dealers, or human traffickers. If a partnership helps keep these communities clean, maybe they can be interesting hubs of tourism which could also be assisted with being partners with them.

[Swordsmyth]

That's a convenient dodge. If I proclaim that agents of the state are not welcome on my property, it's not going to go well for me. The bottom line is, I pay property tax, which means it's not my property.
The state is the only real property owner, thus the state has final say over who can and cannot enter my property.
Every single one of your arguments leads directly to the overarching state you claim to be against. I'm not sure where you're getting lost on that.

You are the anarchist, I am a minarchist, I believe that nations exist for an important purpose and some government is necessary to preserve liberty.




Dude, China was an empire that IIRC was still practicing legalism. We're talking about a society that pioneered the idea of rounding up all the dissenting scholars and burying them alive.
But they didn't have modern bureaucracy micromanaging every little thing, in any case they were the problem that required a change in policy, if China was as bad as you say back then we should indeed be grateful their numbers were limited to minimize their influence on our society.



I stand corrected, there's a good 40% of the time when your arguments lead directly to racism.
It isn't about race, it is about culture, those that assimilated and joined American culture are not a problem and I would object to allowing in too many people of any race who lumped up in ethnic enclaves and didn't assimilate.




This isn't some college professor redefining terms here to make the argument that it's racist not to go see Black Panther. This is a fellow libertarian pointing out the fact that being against a particular ethnicity simply because they are different is kind of the classic dictionary definition of racism.
I'm not against an ethnicity, I'm against allowing in too many of any kind of foreigners who will undermine our liberty.

[Swordsmyth]

Are things like ChinaTowns or Little Italys necessarily a bad thing in a country as large as ours?

I do think integration is kind of an issue, but it might be interesting to address that through partnership with these communities. For example if the criminal elements from their homelands try to move in as well like organized crime, drug dealers, or human traffickers. If a partnership helps keep these communities clean, maybe they can be interesting hubs of tourism which could also be assisted with being partners with them.

It is a matter of scale, the bigger they are the less contact with American culture their occupants have and the slower they assimilate, if they are large enough assimilation stops altogether.

[Swordsmyth]

I will, however, grant you that you could simply be anti-markets, because you don't trust "white" society to survive a market of ideas.
In the opinion of this free marketeer, if "white" society can't compete, it's unfit to exist.
All things tend towards chaos, liberty is like a garden if you don't keep out the weeds it disappears.
If you think liberty should be allowed to succumb to "market forces" then you don't really love it or belong here.
This isn't about "white" society Mr. racist, it is about liberty.

[AuH20]

All things tend towards chaos, liberty is like a garden if you don't keep out the weeds it disappears.
If you think liberty should be allowed to succumb to "market forces" then you don't really love it or belong here.
This isn't about "white" society Mr. racist, it is about liberty.

But we've completed removed the 'market forces' aspect of all this, when states & local communities are legally bound to provide schooling and 'emergency' health care. Many in our media are being disingenuous when they classify this solely as a 'right to immigrate.' It's far more intrusive and expansive than merely crossing a border.

[Thor]

All things tend towards chaos, liberty is like a garden if you don't keep out the weeds it disappears.
If you think liberty should be allowed to succumb to "market forces" then you don't really love it or belong here.
This isn't about "white" society Mr. racist, it is about liberty.


But we've completed removed the 'market forces' aspect of all this, when states & local communities are legally bound to provide schooling and 'emergency' health care. Many in our media are being disingenuous when they classify this solely as a 'right to immigrate.' It's far more intrusive and expansive than merely crossing a border.

Both of these statements are true. Market forces being "au naturel" or rigged.

[TheCount]

Or you could give the children of green card holders their own green cards and they could qualify for citizenship just like their parents.
And then the SS of the future will declare that naturalization has to end for the preservation of the white race... And then we just revert to slavery.

[Swordsmyth]

And then the SS of the future will declare that naturalization has to end for the preservation of the white race... And then we just revert to slavery.

You are delusional.

[TheCount]

That's a convenient dodge. If I proclaim that agents of the state are not welcome on my property, it's not going to go well for me. The bottom line is, I pay property tax, which means it's not my property.
The state is the only real property owner, thus the state has final say over who can and cannot enter my property.
Every single one of your arguments leads directly to the overarching state you claim to be against. I'm not sure where you're getting lost on that.

When he says owners, he means collective majority ownership of the nation. You're spot on, but there's not a communication disconnect, that is his intent and desire.

[TheCount]

It isn't about race, it is about culture, those that assimilated and joined American culture are not a problem and I would object to allowing in too many people of any race who lumped up in ethnic enclaves and didn't assimilate.

What's your opinion on white flight?

[Swordsmyth]

When he says owners, he means collective majority ownership of the nation. You're spot on, but there's not a communication disconnect, that is his intent and desire.

The nation only owns the general territory, it does/should not own specific pieces of property inside it.

[Swordsmyth]

What's your opinion on white flight?
It is a market force, if people decide to move from an area it is nobody else's business.

[TheCount]

You are delusional.
Nope.

I remember just two short years ago when this discussion was supposedly only about illegal immigration. And I remember when the PATRIOT act was only for those evil terrorists. And when biometrics at ports of entry were only for foreigners. And when gun control was for the black panthers. And when drug control was for inner city crackheads. And...

[TheCount]

It is a market force, if people decide to move from an area it is nobody else's business.
You don't have a problem with an ethnicity grouping together in an ethnic enclave and refusing to assimilate? That's an awfully quick change of heart, even for you.

[Swordsmyth]

Nope.

I remember just two short years ago when this discussion was supposedly only about illegal immigration. And I remember when the PATRIOT act was only for those evil terrorists. And when biometrics at ports of entry were only for foreigners. And when gun control was for the black panthers. And when drug control was for inner city crackheads. And...

We have complained about anchor babies all along.

[dannno]

You don't have a problem with an ethnicity grouping together in an ethnic enclave and refusing to assimilate? That's an awfully quick change of heart, even for you.

If they are getting paid with taxes, that's no good, but if they are doing it on their own - good luck not assimilating. That is how assimilation happens, participating in the market.

[Swordsmyth]

You don't have a problem with an ethnicity grouping together in an ethnic enclave and refusing to assimilate? That's an awfully quick change of heart, even for you.
Once they are allowed into the country they can do whatever they want, that is why they should be let in in limited numbers so that if they do lump up their communities are small enough to assimilate any way.

[DamianTV]

So Immigration to the US should be fully permitted with ZERO RESTRICTIONS? No such thing as an "Illegal Immigrant"?

If that is the case, then I challenge anyone who supports the claim to try to Immigrate TO Mexico. If you are caught and convicted IN MEXICO of marrying someone with the intent of circumventing MEXICOS IMMIGRATION LAWS, that is a crime IN MEXICO that carries with it a minimum of 5 YEARS IN PRISON, IN MEXICO.

So for the love of fuck, if Rights are Equal, and Humans are Equal, why is it okay for them to immigrate here, but in Mexico, it is highly illegal? That is a Double Standard.

What is happening is Population Replacement. Immigrants are NOT just a source of Cheap Labor or VOTES. But that is their value to the politicians and the elite. Immigration in too large of numbers displaces not only the existing population, but the values and culture and history. Our history is one of defiance. That history itself is a threat that the elite and powerful want to eliminate by any and all means available.

If Govt were made of people, they would occasionally make mistakes. Some of those mistakes would cause problems, some of them would benefit groups of people. If Govt were made of humans, they would own up to the mistakes and correct them. Unlimited Immigration is NOT a mistake. The problems that Illegal Immigration causes are intentional. They get historically Democratic / Socialist Voters. They get cheap labor. They get a passive population who bow their heads to abuse of employers of low wages and exploitation. The elite also get to destroy our culture and our history, which has taught us to defy any abusive government. They get an excuse to enact Wealth Distribution, a foundation of Communism, because, excuses. Oh but they need Health Care, so we will just tax the existing tax base even more. They dont come here for opportunity to be free of problems in their own countries, they come here to spread the same problems that exist in their country to our country. They want Free Health Care at our expense. They want the "Right to Drive" but wont get insurance or take responsibility for their actions as that could lead to deportation. They duck their heads and hide while not adopting any of our culture. They demand we change everything so we teach spanish in schools and print everything in their language. Try going to Russia and doing that. Hello Gulag. Try going to Mexico and doing that. Hello Mexican Prison.

I blame no one for wanting a better life, or an opportunity to grow to their fullest potential. I do blame people for wanting a better life at the expense of others. Socialism is the Great Lie where everyone lives at the expense of everyone else. Wealth Distribution and Population Replacement. Cloward Piven Strategy is to overload a societys welfare structure until collapse occurs.

Just like Money, Immigration has become a Drug that our government is addicted to. We dont need a nation of Enablers of their addictions.

Our nation was built on Immigration, but with that Immigration, in order to become a citizen, one had certain standards. Learn to speak our language. Learn our History. Learn our Culture. Become a part of the community. We used to not allow people to become Naturalized citizens until many of those criteria were met. Now, we let anyone in, give them free EVERYTHING, and many do not seek to become a part of the US. If this were not true, why do so many Mexicans self identify as Mexican even if they are BORN in this country and actually grew up here? A more accurate description of someone who's parents Legally Immigrated from Mexico and that person was born here, yes, Mexican is part of their heritage, just as I can say I am Irish, Dutch and several other places, its a part of my heritage, but I am an American. Shouldnt they self define as American also? Or is being an American now such a tarnished and shameful label that a person would rather self identify as a Somali Pirate than to carry with it the stigma of being from the US?

We can handle Immigration from other countries as long as the process is reasonable and legal, but we cant just take everyone in. Politicians often hide behind Women and Children. This is no different, we must let the kids in. We must give them a bunch of free everything. We cant separate their families. They are breaking our laws but thats okay because Americans do not deserve Rights and we are gonna take from those who have anything left and give it to those who want everything for free. Think of the Children. Yeah, we know exactly what they are up to. They are doing nothing short of trying to start a Civil War, and they have invited the Army within our borders.

... that ought to stir up a little controversy.

[Thor]

So Immigration to the US should be fully permitted with ZERO RESTRICTIONS? No such thing as an "Illegal Immigrant"?

If that is the case, then I challenge anyone who supports the claim to try to Immigrate TO Mexico. If you are caught and convicted IN MEXICO of marrying someone with the intent of circumventing MEXICOS IMMIGRATION LAWS, that is a crime IN MEXICO that carries with it a minimum of 5 YEARS IN PRISON, IN MEXICO.

So for the love of fuck, if Rights are Equal, and Humans are Equal, why is it okay for them to immigrate here, but in Mexico, it is highly illegal? That is a Double Standard.

What is happening is Population Replacement. Immigrants are NOT just a source of Cheap Labor or VOTES. But that is their value to the politicians and the elite. Immigration in too large of numbers displaces not only the existing population, but the values and culture and history. Our history is one of defiance. That history itself is a threat that the elite and powerful want to eliminate by any and all means available.

If Govt were made of people, they would occasionally make mistakes. Some of those mistakes would cause problems, some of them would benefit groups of people. If Govt were made of humans, they would own up to the mistakes and correct them. Unlimited Immigration is NOT a mistake. The problems that Illegal Immigration causes are intentional. They get historically Democratic / Socialist Voters. They get cheap labor. They get a passive population who bow their heads to abuse of employers of low wages and exploitation. The elite also get to destroy our culture and our history, which has taught us to defy any abusive government. They get an excuse to enact Wealth Distribution, a foundation of Communism, because, excuses. Oh but they need Health Care, so we will just tax the existing tax base even more. They dont come here for opportunity to be free of problems in their own countries, they come here to spread the same problems that exist in their country to our country. They want Free Health Care at our expense. They want the "Right to Drive" but wont get insurance or take responsibility for their actions as that could lead to deportation. They duck their heads and hide while not adopting any of our culture. They demand we change everything so we teach spanish in schools and print everything in their language. Try going to Russia and doing that. Hello Gulag. Try going to Mexico and doing that. Hello Mexican Prison.

I blame no one for wanting a better life, or an opportunity to grow to their fullest potential. I do blame people for wanting a better life at the expense of others. Socialism is the Great Lie where everyone lives at the expense of everyone else. Wealth Distribution and Population Replacement. Cloward Piven Strategy is to overload a societys welfare structure until collapse occurs.

Just like Money, Immigration has become a Drug that our government is addicted to. We dont need a nation of Enablers of their addictions.

Our nation was built on Immigration, but with that Immigration, in order to become a citizen, one had certain standards. Learn to speak our language. Learn our History. Learn our Culture. Become a part of the community. We used to not allow people to become Naturalized citizens until many of those criteria were met. Now, we let anyone in, give them free EVERYTHING, and many do not seek to become a part of the US. If this were not true, why do so many Mexicans self identify as Mexican even if they are BORN in this country and actually grew up here? A more accurate description of someone who's parents Legally Immigrated from Mexico and that person was born here, yes, Mexican is part of their heritage, just as I can say I am Irish, Dutch and several other places, its a part of my heritage, but I am an American. Shouldnt they self define as American also? Or is being an American now such a tarnished and shameful label that a person would rather self identify as a Somali Pirate than to carry with it the stigma of being from the US?

We can handle Immigration from other countries as long as the process is reasonable and legal, but we cant just take everyone in. Politicians often hide behind Women and Children. This is no different, we must let the kids in. We must give them a bunch of free everything. We cant separate their families. They are breaking our laws but thats okay because Americans do not deserve Rights and we are gonna take from those who have anything left and give it to those who want everything for free. Think of the Children. Yeah, we know exactly what they are up to. They are doing nothing short of trying to start a Civil War, and they have invited the Army within our borders.

... that ought to stir up a little controversy.

+1 "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DamianTV again." Someone cover me...

[Thor]

I think we should institute a challenge for leftists (liberals and leftist "libertarians") wanting to allow illegal immigrants free entry.

I think to prove how well your ideas work, you need to lead by example. After all we are talking about letting illegal immigrants into our home (our country) ... so show us how it is done.

Post an ad on Craigslist in your community. Offer to allow ANYONE entry into your home (no background checks or references allowed) and provide your address in the ad so everyone can find you. In the ad you will mention you provide a fully stocked fridge and clean sheets on a comfortable bed in every room in your home for EVERYONE who shows up. No limit on who can be there. So a "shared apartment" styled offering. 24/7 your doors are open (no locks on the doors allowed.) No notice before arrival needed. Anyone can sleep, eat, and stay as long as they want. Payment optional. You as the leftist leader will replenish the fridge daily, and wash the sheets daily (I am sure there will be rotations taken for sleeping) - no charge. Mi casa es su casa.

Please provide links to your Craiglslist ad here so we know you are serious about this issue, demonstrating your willingness to allow strangers into your home, where you also provide food and shelter for them. Then we can take your arguments for no borders / open borders / a human right to free travel with some gravity.

[Swordsmyth]

+1 "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DamianTV again." Someone cover me...
Covered.

[Thor]

6026

[Swordsmyth]

6026

There should be one for "ending welfare will solve the illegal problem" vs "they are hard working and come here for the opportunity".

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[AuH20]

1010547044753334272

1010019384021082112

[AuH20]

Nothing to see here! Anyone who falls for this scam needs their head examined.

1010689602406010880

[Swordsmyth]

To end illegal immigration, declare war on sending countries so their citizens can be expelled as "Enemy Aliens"
Using the civil law system, i.e. the Department of Justice's "Immigration Court" officially known as the "Executive Office of Immigration Review," to stop illegal immigration is taking too long and costing to much of the taxpayer's money.
There is a faster, simpler and easier way:
1. Ask Congress to declare war on all countries that send illegal immigrants to the USA.
2. Once war has been declare, all the citizens of the countries that the USA has declared war on automatically become "Enemy Aliens" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_alien) subject to rapid internment and deportation by the Department of Defense.
3. There is no "red tape" involved with the Department of Defense removing "Enemy Aliens."
4. The US Army Corps of Engineers can build the Mex border wall with DoD funds.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/end-illegal-immigration-declare-war-sending-countries-so-their-citizens-can-be-expelled-enemy-aliens

[AuH20]

Blacks hate Latinos. I don't know why Trump doesn't play this up. It's low hanging fruit.

1010908268800172032

[Jan2017]

Nope. Nations have borders and laws. Any person that doesn't follow our laws does not have a right to immigrate here.

Immigration To The United States Is A "Human Right"

How many court cases are clear already . . . hundreds or thousands(?)
- there is NOT a right to immigrate.
However, the immigrant DOES have a right to appeal a deportation hearing finding to be forced to leave in a federal deportation.

[timosman]

To end illegal immigration, declare war on sending countries so their citizens can be expelled as "Enemy Aliens"
Using the civil law system, i.e. the Department of Justice's "Immigration Court" officially known as the "Executive Office of Immigration Review," to stop illegal immigration is taking too long and costing to much of the taxpayer's money.
There is a faster, simpler and easier way:
1. Ask Congress to declare war on all countries that send illegal immigrants to the USA.
2. Once war has been declare, all the citizens of the countries that the USA has declared war on automatically become "Enemy Aliens" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_alien) subject to rapid internment and deportation by the Department of Defense.
3. There is no "red tape" involved with the Department of Defense removing "Enemy Aliens."
4. The US Army Corps of Engineers can build the Mex border wall with DoD funds.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/end-illegal-immigration-declare-war-sending-countries-so-their-citizens-can-be-expelled-enemy-aliens

LOL. Won't change a thing. We are actively importing people from axis of evil countries already.:cool:

[Firestarter]

To end illegal immigration, declare war on sending countries so their citizens can be expelled as "Enemy Aliens" Do I feel silly after reading this wonderful post...

I thought that the US, Russia, and Israel bomb Syria to get massive amounts of Syrians migrating to Europe. So I thought that wars are one of the main causes of migration.
I also thought that it aren't governments that migrate (although I can imagine that some governments support it) but the citizens.

But I stand corrected.

You don't really have to worry in the US (anymore) though about migrants flooding your country, as it's a UN policy to have migrants flooding Europe (and Canada and Australia), but NOT the US: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?513280-UN-Document-From-2000-Exposes-Global-%91Migration-Replacement%92-Solution-To-Developed-World-Demog

[pcosmar]

What authority?
I have no authority.
GOD may let the devil control most of the world most of the time but he has divine title to his creation and a perfect right to give stewardship over any part of it to anyone, he did so with the children of Israel in the days of Moses and Joshua.

He also gave then a king to be like the heathen,, because they demanded one..

not because it was a good idea.

[Swordsmyth]

He also gave then a king to be like the heathen,, because they demanded one..

not because it was a good idea.
The children of Israel wanted to return to Egypt, giving them the promised land was GOD's idea and therefore a good idea.

[AuH20]

They're all the same. They want the Prison Planet.

1013098255973081088

[Zippyjuan]

To end illegal immigration, declare war on sending countries so their citizens can be expelled as "Enemy Aliens"
Using the civil law system, i.e. the Department of Justice's "Immigration Court" officially known as the "Executive Office of Immigration Review," to stop illegal immigration is taking too long and costing to much of the taxpayer's money.
There is a faster, simpler and easier way:
1. Ask Congress to declare war on all countries that send illegal immigrants to the USA.
2. Once war has been declare, all the citizens of the countries that the USA has declared war on automatically become "Enemy Aliens" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_alien) subject to rapid internment and deportation by the Department of Defense.
3. There is no "red tape" involved with the Department of Defense removing "Enemy Aliens."
4. The US Army Corps of Engineers can build the Mex border wall with DoD funds.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/end-illegal-immigration-declare-war-sending-countries-so-their-citizens-can-be-expelled-enemy-aliens

Declare war on China? India? Sure- why not?

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/asians-now-outpace-mexicans-in-terms-of-undocumented-growth/432603/


Asians Now Outpace Mexicans In Terms of Undocumented Growth

Chinese, South Koreans, and Indians among the fastest-growing segments of undocumented immigrants

Someone tell Donald Trump that he's picking on the wrong immigrants. Turns out that, since 2000, unauthorized immigration from Asia has grown at rates much faster than from Mexico and Central America. That's according to a new report by the Migration Policy Institute. So Trump will need to amend his ideas for "securing our nation's borders."


What happened in that time, Rosenblum says, is that as the economies thrived in places such as China, South Korea, and India, people there could now afford to migrate to the U.S.—both legally and illegally.

For example, in 1990, there were an estimated 28,000 unauthorized immigrants from India in the U.S. There's now more than 284,000. Those numbers mirror the rising share of legal Indian immigrants coming to the U.S., and also America's growing Indian-American population.

The Asian countries with the largest growth are India (306 percent), South Korea (249 percent), and China (148 percent) .

In fact, if stretched back to 1990, India's unauthorized U.S. immigration growth far outpaces any other country's, reaching 914 percent.

Asians now represent about a third of the foreign-born population in America—equal with the Mexican foreign-born population. They also represent 14 percent of the unauthorized population. That number, by the author's own projections, will grow in the coming decade.

[Jan2017]

I am Zippy and I approve of this post . . .
What is with the extra shade of red in the rep display Zip ? Jus' wonderin' . . . maybe jus' my browser.
Is there a limit to neg rep - any consequences - like permanent ban (?)

Asian outpaces Mexican immigration - LOL
Do you need me to post statistics for you AGAIN (?) or should we just all on RPF let you lie continuously (?)

DACA Scheemers are still here illegally - how many is that by your count Zip . . . how many again?
How many million Mexican illegals now in thew USA. Any clue . . . yet ?
No nation ever in the history of the planet has had so many illegal entries into another nation than Mexico.

[Zippyjuan]

What is with the extra shade of red in the rep display Zip ? Jus' wonderin' . . . maybe jus' my browser.
Is there a limit to neg rep - any consequences - like permanent ban (?)

Asian outpaces Mexican immigration - LOL
Do you need me to post statistics for you AGAIN (?) or should we just all on RPF let you lie continuously (?)

DACA Scheemers are still here illegally - how many is that by your count Zip . . . how many again?
How many million Mexican illegals now in thew USA. Any clue . . . yet ?
No nation ever in the history of the planet has had so many illegal entries into another nation than Mexico.

In total numbers, Mexicans are still #1 but they quit coming a few years ago (coming in net- at least as many leaving as coming). Now it is the Asians and Central Americans.

There are about 680,000 DACA recipients in the US. https://www.factcheck.org/2018/01/daca-population-numbers/

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2015/11/PH_2015-11-19_mexican-immigration-05.png

[Jan2017]

Blacks hate Latinos. I don't know why Trump doesn't play this up. It's low hanging fruit.

1010908268800172032

Well, it is a competition in so many ways for all sorts of things.

But the Central American latinos also hate on the Mexican latinos.
Mexicans are the ones that eff it up for everybody from every nation for decades - every nation within the immigration policy guidelines
every year EXCEPT Mexico.

The Mexicans should be distinguished from the honest Central American nations -
Mexican latinos v. Central American latinos.

Blacks and central Americans jus' have different reasons to hate the Mexicans

[enhanced_deficit]

They just repeat US leftists talking points.

Thread title refers to an extreme POV, but there are many other shades of views supported by Rightists like Laura Bush, W Bush and even Trump and his major donors.
But with creative flip-flopping, some on the 'Right' are are able to create strategic ambiguity on this.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/AJwG8tF1A2tVJ4fJb4rhTbNbVuI=/0x0:633x331/fit-in/1200x630/cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9245523/Screen_Shot_2017_09_14_at_10.41.46_AM.png

https://assets.forwardcdn.com/images/cropped/bob-menendez-1439932854.jpg
(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?523756-A-comedian-says-he-prank-called-Trump-and-Jared-Kushner-patched-him-through&p=6646517&viewfull=1#post6646517)


(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?523756-A-comedian-says-he-prank-called-Trump-and-Jared-Kushner-patched-him-through&p=6646517&viewfull=1#post6646517)Trump tells prankster posing as Sen. Bob Menendez, 'We're proud of you' and 'Great job (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?523756-A-comedian-says-he-prank-called-Trump-and-Jared-Kushner-patched-him-through&p=6646517&viewfull=1#post6646517)'


"Bob, let me just tell you, I want to be able to take care of the situation, every bit as much as anybody else," Trump says. "I think we can do the whole thing. You know, I have a good relationship with the party, you have a good relationship with the party. And I think we can do a real immigration bill."


Conservatives over at Breitbart had even suggested that Dems/Left were in bed with current 'Right' in the WH:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/294/982/125.jpg

[AuH20]

Obviously. Mexican culture has long pointed to this. We should look into erecting an energy shield that spans from the ground to the sky as opposed to the wall. Under no circumstances should these people be allowed entry with our ridiculous welfare state in place.

1013602070849519618

[nikcers]

Obviously. Mexican culture has long pointed to this.
Ritualistic human sacrifice?

[AuH20]

Ritualistic human sacrifice?

That too. But in all seriousness, they place more emphasis on community than the individual and in their eyes, 'community=government.'

BTW I honestly hope that AMLO is successful because the last thing we need is a Venezuelan like crisis occurring.

[DamianTV]

In general...

They genuinely think that the Cloward Piven Strategy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy) will actually work.


The Cloward–Piven strategy is a political strategy outlined in 1966 by American sociologists and political activists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven that called for overloading the U.S. public welfare system in order to precipitate a crisis that would lead to a replacement of the welfare system with a national system of "a guaranteed annual income and thus an end to poverty"

Trouble is that guaranteed annual income will most likely be completely unlivable and will trap most in a state of permanent economic futility. Socialism is the Great Lie by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else.

---

Also in general...

Rights, including both Constitutional Rights and Human Rights are defined by their limits. The Limit of any Right is the Equal Right of others. My Rights END where your Rights BEGIN. Likewise, your Rights also END where my Rights BEGIN. Equal Rights. This is the exact opposite of the Goals of Socialism. An easy way to understand this is to say I have a Right to an Education. That cant be a real Right because if I demand a Right to an Education, it is the enslavement of another person to give me what I want. At its most extreme, it would be like I demand to a group of people with guns and money to force you to become a Teacher against your will or suffer the consequences of their monopoly on violence, and if you do accept the demands of you, then you'll most likely not be compensated. Thus, that Right to Education comes directly at your expense. A flip side is that you are already a teacher, and I come along and demand to enact my Right to Education by making you teach me what ever it is that you teach, and compensation will come from other sources. The problem there is the demand that you obey me. The only way it isnt a violation of either of our Rights is to first recognize that there is no legitimate Right to Education due to it being compulsory. It can work if we both negotiate; I request you teach me a subject, and in exchange I offer some form of compensation, and we both agree in a way that is free of duress or compulsion, and without government interference.

Immigration is no different. Legal Immigration is a request to move to your country. Illegal Immigration is to flat out take without compensation, there by making it compulsory and not agreed to, which is the exact thing that having a Right is supposed to protect people against.

[Swordsmyth]

Mexico’s newly elected President-to-be Andrés Manuel López Obrador routinely railed against Donald Trump’s strong border policy while on the campaign trail, calling illegal immigration to the U.S. a “human right,” and encouraged more to illegally cross the U.S.-Mexico border.
“And soon, very soon — after the victory of our movement — we will defend all the migrants in the American continent and all the migrants in the world,” Obrador said, adding that immigrants “must leave their towns and find a life in the United States.” He then said that immigration is “a human right we will defend.” (RELATED: Top Mexican Presidential Candidate Calls for Mass Migration to the U.S. (https://thepoliticalinsider.com/mexico-mass-migration/)).
As the United States ramps up enforcement against illegal immigration, Mexico has been doing much of the same. Since implementing their Southern Border Plan in 2014, Mexico has deported more than 500,000 illegal immigrants from Central America, more than the U.S. has sent back over the same time period. (RELATED: Mexico Has More Than Doubled Deportations Of Central Americans So Far This Year (https://thepoliticalinsider.com/mexico-deportations/)).


Will that fight against illegal immigration at Mexico’s southern border be suspended by Obrador once he becomes President? Given his pro-open borders stance with the United States, will his attitude be the same with Mexico’s neighbors to the South?
Of course not. Just like most American politicians, President-elect Obrador is a complete hypocrite. Not only will Mexico continue enforcing their immigration laws while criticizing ours, they’re going to be putting that enforcement on steroids. The media criticizes the U.S. for protecting our borders, but not Mexico, so it’s unsurprising that plans to beef up their equivalent of Border Patrol are reported on uncritically from the media.
According to Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-09/security-on-mexican-borders-to-get-new-force-but-not-from-trump); “Obrador is planning his own border police force to stop undocumented immigrants, drugs and guns from crossing into the country from Central America, his future chief of public security said. Picked by Lopez Obrador, Alfonso Durazo stressed that the new force would be part of a larger regional development effort to ease the poverty and violence that lead so many Central Americans to cross into Mexico.” Stopping illegal immigration to prevent the flow of drugs and crime from entering a country? Where have we heard that before?

More at: https://thepoliticalinsider.com/mexi...&utm_content=1 (https://thepoliticalinsider.com/mexico-border-police-president-create/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=idealmedia&utm_campaign=thepoliticalinsider.com&utm_term=68731&utm_content=1)

[Swordsmyth]

bump