Imported Cars A Threat to National Security

[Zippyjuan]

At least that is the basis for Trump wanting to add tariffs onto imported automobiles- possibly as high as 25%. His tariffs on steel and aluminum will hurt US automobile makers by raising the costs of their inputs. The automobile has lost a lot of jobs- but most of that is due to automation.

But this could yet again turn into big statements followed up by zero actual results. Expect him to back off again like his previous tariff statements. Talk tough- do nothing.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/05/23/auto-tariffs-trump-proposes-taxes-imported-cars-trucks-parts/639385002/


Trump calls for new tariffs on imported cars and trucks, escalating trade wars

WASHINGTON — President Trump called for tariffs on imported cars, trucks and auto parts Wednesday, potentially expanding to the auto industry the same protectionist measures he's threatened on aluminum and steel.

Trump said he asked Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross to investigate whether the auto imports are a threat to national security. If so, he would be able to institute tariffs under Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962 — one of the strongest trade tools in the president's arsenal.

"Core industries such as automobiles and automotive parts are critical to our strength as a nation," Trump said in a short statement released by the White House Press Office.

John Bozzella, CEO of Global Automakers, which represents foreign automakers doing business in the U.S. and some domestic parts suppliers, criticized the move.

“If these reports are true, it’s a bad day for American consumers," he said. "The U.S. auto industry is thriving and growing. Thirteen, soon to be 14 companies, produced nearly 12 million cars and trucks in America last year. To our knowledge, no one is asking for this protection. This path leads inevitably to fewer choices and higher prices for cars and trucks in America.”

The surprise announcement came the same day Trump touted "big news coming soon" for U.S. autoworkers. "After many decades of losing your jobs to other countries, you have waited long enough!" he said.

The Commerce Department said it immediately launched the national security investigation required by law to justify the tariffs.

“There is evidence suggesting that, for decades, imports from abroad have eroded our domestic auto industry,” Ross said in a statement. “The Department of Commerce will conduct a thorough, fair, and transparent investigation into whether such imports are weakening our internal economy and may impair the national security.”

The announcement came as talks with Mexico and Canada to rewrite the North American Free Trade Agreement have appeared to languish. Speaking with reporters outside the White House on Wednesday, Trump connected the issues saying that both countries had been "very difficult to deal with" but promising that "our autoworkers are going to be extremely happy. "



More at link.

[Ender]

Trump the Dumb
Karen De Coster


Trump is crazed. He wants to price you out of buying a Subaru, Honda, Kia, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Nissan, etc., etc., with a 25% (or so) tariff, so he can protect “the great American autoworker.” He wants to force you to buy America crap by legislating monetary penalties that punish your free choice.

Thanks to another auto bubble that promotes and preserves an environment for consumers to borrow themselves into massive debt loads, people are buying cars way beyond their means with little or no interest rates and 7-and-8-year stretch payments, hence the jacked-up sales of huge and ugly SUVs and pickups. So now, the American automakers only want to make these bulbous shit-vehicles because the profit margins are gravy.

Meanwhile, Ford is going to stop making sedans, and GM is going to pursue a similar path. So the consumer will have to refrain from buying a new car, or, they will have to buy what the government and the American auto companies want consumers to buy to serve their larger agendas, while making the competition’s vehicles entirely unaffordable.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/trump-the-dumb/

[Krugminator2]

Japanese cars are high quality cars that are less expensive. I think Toyota Camry is the best selling car right now. I don't see this happening if for no other reason it would be universally unpopular with almost every voting constituency. I would be surprised if this was anything more than bluster for a few people living in the Rust Belt.

[Ender]

Japanese cars are high quality cars that are less expensive. I think Toyota Camry is the best selling car right now. I don't see this happening if for no other reason it would be universally unpopular with almost every voting constituency. I would be surprised if this was anything more than bluster for a few people living in the Rust Belt.

Gotta have my Subaru- ;)

Let us pray.

[Zippyjuan]

It is getting harder to even define just what is a "foreign automobile". A plant in Texas may make most of a motor with some parts from Mexico or China and send it to Germany who produces the body with Italian steel and Japanese plastics and then a plant in Georgia may put it all together. Then there are the foreign named car makers who have plants in the US like Honda and Toyota.

[dannno]

Trump the Dumb
Karen De Coster



https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/trump-the-dumb/

Do you really believe that?

I like Lew Rockwell, but he's wrong. Can you tell me why he is wrong?

[dannno]

Japanese cars are high quality cars that are less expensive. I think Toyota Camry is the best selling car right now. I don't see this happening if for no other reason it would be universally unpopular with almost every voting constituency. I would be surprised if this was anything more than bluster for a few people living in the Rust Belt.

Also incorrect.

Can anybody tell me what Trump is doing here? Bueller? It's not like this is anything new, or anything I haven't explained hundreds of times already. Anybody?

[dannno]

Gotta have my Subaru- ;)


Shocking.

[timosman]

Also incorrect.

Can anybody tell me what Trump is doing here? Bueller? It's not like this is anything new, or anything I haven't explained hundreds of times already. Anybody?

Didn't we already have a thread on it? Cut off Chinese from an easy access to the US market via NAFTA.

[dannno]

Didn't we already have a thread on it? Cut off Chinese from an easy access to the US market via NAFTA.

Nope.

The goal is to cut foreign tariffs on our exports and lower tariffs overall.

Trump puts up high numbers for new tariffs, countries freak out in a somewhat infantile way at first, then they get some sleep and think it over, decide to lower their tariffs on us, we cancel our tariffs on them and now we have lower tariffs.

[Danke]

Gotta have my Subaru- ;)

Let us pray.


I thought you were straight.

[enhanced_deficit]

There is no confirmed report in MSM suggesting that all the foreign made USB chargers, flashdrives, music players etc pose any risks. US importers probably strictly prohibit foreign makers of such devices from installing any malware, ransomeware, viruses etc.

[Weston White]

Vehicles are seriously overpriced, which effects abuse of consumers by creditors under a guise of the dealership providing their customers with steals of deals. Then by the time the loan is finally paid the owner finds themselves shelling out large repair bills for their overly complex computer/sensor driven vehicle that requires specialty mechanics to work on it, using specially designed tools just do simple things like change the coolant, while constantly having to spend $550 here or $300 there to repair entire mechanisms all because a little plastic clip or guide broke or because a connector is malfunctioning.

[Ender]

Do you really believe that?

I like Lew Rockwell, but he's wrong. Can you tell me why he is wrong?

Lew didn't write that- Karen De Coster did.

And go ahead and kiss the Ring of Mordor but I will not join you.

[Anti Federalist]

So now, the American automakers only want to make these bulbous shit-vehicles because the profit margins are gravy.

Karen is wrong.

The automakers make what people want: a large, comfortable vehicle that can carry a full family, kids, gear and so on.

The only way that the automakers can build such a vehicle is to base it on a truck frame SUV.

And you can thank Uncle Sucker and his endless safety and environmental fatwas, that killed the large family sedan and station wagon, for that, and no one else.

And I'll stand behind tariffs on foreign built vehicles as well.

The two best selling sedans in the US, the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, are both made here, in no small part due to lower costs from not having a tariff.

Superb quality, outstanding reliability and affordable.

Trouble is...nobody wants them anymore...see the first part of this post.

[TheCount]

Japanese cars are high quality cars that are less expensive. I think Toyota Camry is the best selling car right now. I don't see this happening if for no other reason it would be universally unpopular with almost every voting constituency. I would be surprised if this was anything more than bluster for a few people living in the Rust Belt.

I'm afraid that you'll have to be put in an interment camp to keep you from continuing to harm our great Nation's national security by trumpeting treasonous principles.

[oyarde]

Japanese cars are high quality cars that are less expensive. I think Toyota Camry is the best selling car right now. I don't see this happening if for no other reason it would be universally unpopular with almost every voting constituency. I would be surprised if this was anything more than bluster for a few people living in the Rust Belt.

I cannot imagine a toyota being less expensive . Last time I looked at trucks the toyota with a six cyl got one MPH less gas mileage and cost more than the Ford and Chevy eight Cyl. trucks . Which one is better ? Who knows , ya need to drive it ten years to see .

[Krugminator2]

I cannot imagine a toyota being less expensive . Last time I looked at trucks the toyota with a six cyl got one MPH less gas mileage and cost more than the Ford and Chevy eight Cyl. trucks . Which one is better ? Who knows , ya need to drive it ten years to see .

I don't know anything about trucks (or really cars either).

But I mentioned in the other thread I own an Impala. It basically costs me next to nothing to own. It has been a great vehicle. That said, the research I have done in the last week, Japanese sedans (specifically Toyota and Lexus) hold their resale value much better. And they are cheaper to maintain. https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expensive-cars-to-maintain-by-maddy-martin

[dannno]

Lew didn't write that- Karen De Coster did.

And go ahead and kiss the Ring of Mordor but I will not join you.

Lew was wrong for promoting the article.. All I asked you to do was say why it was wrong. It is wrong because she thinks that what Trump is promoting is what is going to happen. Trump isn't promoting 25% tariffs because he wants 25% tariffs, what he wants is for other countries to lower their tariffs so our car makers have a bigger market just like foreign car makers have big markets, including the US.

This is what happened last time with the tariffs, Trump ended up canceling a bunch of them because other countries lowered their tariffs and gave us better trade deals, and that is what he is going for here.

It's not about kissing the ring, this is simply a thought exercise - learn to think for yourself!! Oh, and stop kissing the ring of the deep state....

[Zippyjuan]

So now, the American automakers only want to make these bulbous $#@!-vehicles because the profit margins are gravy.

Karen is wrong.

The automakers make what people want: a large, comfortable vehicle that can carry a full family, kids, gear and so on.

The only way that the automakers can build such a vehicle is to base it on a truck frame SUV.

And you can thank Uncle Sucker and his endless safety and environmental fatwas, that killed the large family sedan and station wagon, for that, and no one else.

And I'll stand behind tariffs on foreign built vehicles as well.

The two best selling sedans in the US, the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, are both made here, in no small part due to lower costs from not having a tariff.

Superb quality, outstanding reliability and affordable.

Trouble is...nobody wants them anymore...see the first part of this post.

Ford cited profit margin as part of their decision to cut their number of sedans in production (yes, along with declining sales of smaller cars).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-ford-car-models-20180425-story.html


The decision, which Hackett said was due to declining demand and profitability, means Ford will no longer sell the Fusion midsize car, Taurus large car, CMax hybrid compact and Fiesta subcompact in the U.S., Canada and Mexico.


Ford also promised to raise its operating profit margin from 5.2 percent to 8 percent by 2020, two years earlier than a previous forecast.

How do you raise the profit margin? By getting rid of lower margin vehicles.

[timosman]

How do you raise the profit margin? By getting rid of lower margin vehicles.

Then the volume drops taking down the profits and exposing this pointless exercise in wishful thinking for what it is.

[Zippyjuan]

Then the volume drops taking down the profits and exposing this pointless exercise in wishful thinking for what it is.

Ford Fusion sales (one of the models they are dropping) were down 21% just last year alone. https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/06/the-grim-chart-that-shows-why-fords-fusion-is-in-d.aspx Their sedan sales were combined off 15% while their truck sales rose 9.3%.


Ford's story in 2017 reflected the market's overall story: At this point in the economic cycle, sales of trucks and SUVs are still growing somewhat, but overall sales are softening. And sales of cars -- coupes and sedans -- are down significantly, as more buyers are migrating to car-based crossover SUVs.

For Ford, that means new sales records to celebrate for some SUV models, and another year of sales growth for its huge-selling (and hugely profitable) F-Series pickup family. But it also means the company is taking a hard look at its lineup of sedan models -- and some may not be around for much longer.


There's some good news in those numbers:

Sales of the F-Series pickup line rose 9.3% to almost 900,000 trucks sold, making 2017 Ford's best year for full-size pickup sales since 2005. As Ford was happy to note, the F-Series has now been America's best-selling pickup line for 41 consecutive years.

Ford sold almost 800,000 SUVs in the U.S. last year, an all-time record. That includes all-time sales records for the Edge and Escape SUVs, and the Explorer's best year since 2003.

[Ender]

Lew was wrong for promoting the article.. All I asked you to do was say why it was wrong. It is wrong because she thinks that what Trump is promoting is what is going to happen. Trump isn't promoting 25% tariffs because he wants 25% tariffs, what he wants is for other countries to lower their tariffs so our car makers have a bigger market just like foreign car makers have big markets, including the US.

This is what happened last time with the tariffs, Trump ended up canceling a bunch of them because other countries lowered their tariffs and gave us better trade deals, and that is what he is going for here.

It's not about kissing the ring, this is simply a thought exercise - learn to think for yourself!! Oh, and stop kissing the ring of the deep state....

LOL- try reading something other than TrumpLumps- your Supreme Mr Deep State.

Eric Peters knows what he is talking about.

Trump’s Tariff Turducken
Eric Peters


Trump is getting heat for his threat to impose tariffs on “imported” cars in order to help American car companies. But what about all the “American” cars built outside America?

And what about the “import” brands that build their cars here?

GM and Ford and FiatChrysler have plants in Mexico. The American 1500 series trucks they build there are shipped here. They are objectively imported. Should they be tariffized?

Toyota has a yuge operation in California. Nissan builds its trucks in Tennessee. Honda has plants in Ohio. BMW builds SUVS in South Carolina. Are these “imported” cars? Should they receive protection from the “foreign” competition – even if the brand in question happens to have its corporate HQ here?

The fulsome scurvy truth is there’s no such thing as an “American” car – or an “imported” one. Not anymore.

Not as they used to be.

People outside the business don’t realize how international not just the car companies have become but also the cars – most of which wouldn’t run without common parts from Bosch (injectors) and Denso (electronics) and ZF (transmissions) and a bunch of others, regardless of the brand on the fender.

Cars are built to a global standard nowadays. Like it or not, it is what it is.

The current Ford Mustang, as a for-instance. It was specifically designed not just for America but also for Europe and other export markets. The influence of this works both ways. One way – in the case of the Mustang – is that it remained rear-wheel-drive. American Mustang buyers demand this – would revolt if Ford changed this to the more common front-wheel-drive layout. So, that stayed. But the Mustang also got a standard four cylinder engine – with a turbo – which was done to make the car more agreeable to European/export market buyers who have to deal with (among other things) gas prices twice as high as what we pay.

The point is, the architecture – an industry term – is global. Go visit a major automaker’s web page; read about it for yourself.

Nationalism is an anachronism, at least in terms of how cars are designed and built as well as where they are built.

Did you know that Jaguar (and Land Rover) are owned by an Indian conglomerate? They are British in heritage, but no longer English. Should they be hit with punitive taxes on account of this? How about all the Buicks GM builds in China? Speaking of that . . . who do you suppose owns Volvo these days? Hint: It’s not the Swedes.

The point here is that imposing tariffs based on who’s an “import” and who’s not is going to be yugely problematic. Trump is operating on the basis of a false premise – one that hasn’t existed in fact since at least the 1980s. In those days, one could at least speak accurately of imported and domestic cars. It is much harder to do so today without it just being idiot demagoguery cynically calculated to inflame the boobs who don’t know any better. Who think, for instance, that their all-American truck was actually made in American rather than hecho en Mexico.

The real problem – which Trump could address without resorting to idiot demagoguery – is not “unfair trade” but stupid (and morally unjustifiable) regulations emanating from Washington. For instance, Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency (CAFE) regs which raise the cost of cars in order to make them use less gas. Which in the first place is none of the government’s proper business.

It’s your car. And in the second place, it’s your gas.

You pay for both. Which makes it no more the government’s business than where you choose to eat and how much you choose to eat. People would get their backs up about the latter – if the government began decreeing where they were allowed to eat – and telling them how much they could eat. It’s the same principle.

CAFE has made cars cost literally thousands of dollars more than they otherwise would. Far more than they do as the result of “unfair” trade. This is not conjecture. It’s verifiable fact. CAFE – the pressure to make every car an economy car, in terms of its average fuel consumption – has pushed the car manufacturers (“foreign” and “domestic”) to add direct injection in place of port fuel injection and put transmissions with nine and ten speeds in ordinary family cars. These “save gas” – but cost money.

Our money.

And that makes it our business – not Uncle’s.

Getting Uncle out of the business of dictating mandatory minimum MPGs would be a boon to everyone, import and domestic alike. It might result in more “gas guzzlers” being made. But that doesn’t mean fuel-efficient cars wouldn’t be available – so long as natural market demand exists for them. It just means the government would no longer be in the business of punishing those who have different demands.

Another productive thing Trump could do would be to get the government out of the “safety” business – which is also none of the government’s business. It is important to define our terms here. We are not talking about defective cars or cars that aren’t roadworthy. Just cars that don’t meet the government’s arbitrary criteria regarding how well they withstand crashing into things.

This, again, is properly our business.

Once upon a time, it was. People could choose very efficient – and very light – cars that maybe couldn’t take a broadside as well as a Cadillac Sedan deVille but also didn’t cost as much as a Sedan deVille and used a lot less gas, too.

The government took those choices away. Trump could give them back.

And unlike the idiotic tariff threats he’s making – which would hurt the car business as well as car buyers – getting Uncle out of the MPG and “safety” business would help everyone.

Well, except for the useless eaters in Washington – who make a fat living inserting themselves into things which are none of their got-damned business.
Anti Federalist ^^^

[Anti Federalist]

Ford cited profit margin as part of their decision to cut their number of sedans in production (yes, along with declining sales of smaller cars).

How do you raise the profit margin? By getting rid of lower margin vehicles.

And why do those have a lower margin, Zip?

Because they are not in demand and you cannot charge a premium price for a product nobody wants.

Unlike a high margin truck or SUV, which is what people do want.

Or at least what they want, given they have no other choice, due to Uncle Sucker's fatwas.

[tod evans]

Unlike a high margin truck or SUV, which is what people do want.


Full frame, rear wheel drive, cast iron big-block station-wagons without any computer would sell like hotcakes....

[dannno]

LOL- try reading something other than TrumpLumps- your Supreme Mr Deep State.

Eric Peters knows what he is talking about.

Trump’s Tariff Turducken
Eric Peters

@Anti Federalist (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=3169) ^^^

But your article completely ignores all of the points that I have made, which is that the tariffs are going to be lower in other countries in the future, and ours will mostly be removed as well. So there will be less tariffs. The article presumes that the tariffs announced will all stay in place and no other tariffs will be lowered in response. That is an incorrect assumption and historically inaccurate.

[Zippyjuan]

But your article completely ignores all of the points that I have made, which is that the tariffs are going to be lower in other countries in the future, and ours will mostly be removed as well. So there will be less tariffs. The article presumes that the tariffs announced will all stay in place and no other tariffs will be lowered in response. That is an incorrect assumption and historically inaccurate.

So if we have infinity tariffs then tariffs will be zero! Cool!

[dannno]

So if we have infinity tariffs then tariffs will be zero! Cool!

Who said anything about have? Announce /= have... You announce, then negotiate. It's not like they are permanent, he can change them at any time. It's a negotiation, and without it we get screwed.

[Zippyjuan]

Who said anything about have? Announce /= have... You announce, then negotiate. It's not like they are permanent, he can change them at any time. It's a negotiation, and without it we get screwed.

Trump announced tariffs. China announced they would retaliate if they went into effect. Trump says tariffs delayed, then retracted. China retracts one of the tariffs they had actually imposed in response (sorghum). Trump has a history of big promises/ threats and then backing off. He was going to put tariffs on steel and aluminum for all countries. Then one by one excluded most of them. (they will still hurt all industries using steel and aluminum like manufacturing). He does things without thinking and has to retreat. NAFTA talks stalled. Countries are not taking him that seriously anymore.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/1wgounfrmucug07jc0r0xa.png

[Swordsmyth]

Trump announced tariffs. China announced they would retaliate if they went into effect. Trump says tariffs delayed, then retracted. China retracts one of the tariffs they had actually imposed in response (sorghum). Trump has a history of big promises/ threats and then backing off. He was going to put tariffs on steel and aluminum for all countries. Then one by one excluded most of them. (they will still hurt all industries using steel and aluminum like manufacturing). He does things without thinking and has to retreat. NAFTA talks stalled. Countries are not taking him that seriously anymore.

It isn't over yet.

[Danke]

"GM and Ford and FiatChrysler have plants in Mexico. The American 1500 series trucks they build there are shipped here. They are objectively imported. Should they be tariffized?"

Yes, it is not about ownership of a particular company, but where the work is done.

[Zippyjuan]

It isn't over yet.

It isn't showing any signs of progress.

[Swordsmyth]

It isn't showing any signs of progress.

Yes it is.

[Zippyjuan]

Yes it is.

What tariffs have been reduced or eliminated under Trump?

[Swordsmyth]

What tariffs have been reduced or eliminated under Trump?

The Chinese are reducing their tariffs on cars for one.

[Zippyjuan]

The Chinese are reducing their tariffs on cars for one.

Big impact there.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/china-agrees-slash-car-tariffs-it-s-still-six-times-n876346


China agrees to slash car tariffs — but it's still six times more than the U.S. pays

At 15 percent, Chinese automotive tariffs will still be six times higher than what the U.S. charges on almost all vehicles.

China is slashing tariffs on imported passenger vehicles, cutting the tax from 25 percent to 15 percent in response to increasing trade pressures from President Donald Trump and his trade advisors — but that tax is still six times higher than what the U.S. assesses on imported cars, and Trump said he is "not satisfied" with the trade talks, telling White House reporters Tuesday that the negotiations were just a start.

Trump's comments came as South Korean President Moon Jae-in visited the White House to discuss next month's summit on North Korea.

The reduced tariff, which will come into effect July 1, comes as the U.S. and China move to head off the threat of a trade war. Last month, Trump pointed specifically to automobiles in a series of tweets, one of which lambasted what he called “STUPID TRADE.”

China is the world’s largest automotive market, with sales rising to about 24 million vehicles in 2017 compared to 17.2 million in the United States. Imports, however, are barely a single-digit share of the Chinese market, with American-made vehicles generating just $10.5 billion in sales in 2017, or around 300,000 vehicles, according to U.S. trade data.


Even if the tariffs subsequently were cut to a figure closer to what the U.S. levies, Sullivan said most manufacturers would limit exports to China because of the “build-where-you-sell approach” that dominates the industry these days.

Most US cars sold in China are made in China.

[Swordsmyth]

Big impact there.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/china-agrees-slash-car-tariffs-it-s-still-six-times-n876346

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Swordsmyth http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6634114#post6634114)
It isn't over yet.

[Zippyjuan]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Swordsmyth http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6634114#post6634114)
It isn't over yet.

To date, the "Deal Maker" has shown a large lack of any deals. He has been better at walking away from them than negotiating them.

[Swordsmyth]

To date, the "Deal Maker" has shown a large lack of any deals. He has been better at walking away from them than negotiating them.

So far the deals needed to be walked away from, if you don't walk away from bad deals you will never get a good one.

[Zippyjuan]

So far the deals needed to be walked away from, if you don't walk away from bad deals you will never get a good one.

If you show you are not willing to honor existing deals, others will be less willing to sign a new deal with you- believing that you will not honor its terms either- making you untrustworthy. Not a good tactic.

[Swordsmyth]

If you show you are not willing to honor existing deals, others will be less willing to sign a new deal with you- believing that you will not honor its terms either- making you untrustworthy. Not a good tactic.

When we have been sold out by leaders for as long as anyone can remember we have to break the old deals, anything else is less important.

You might as well tell a slave that if he takes up arms against his master that no one will ever be able to trust him to do any work that he hires out to do.