LIVE Active Shooter Event in Santa Fe High School

[AuH20]

It never stops.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/18/us/texas-school-shooting/index.html

[H_H]

Ramping up our amygdalae, into higher and higher gear. It's a good thing.


Gotta look on the bright side!

[AuH20]

8 reportedly dead.

[phill4paul]

You can't get on a plane with a bottle of water but you can just walk in and out of these shooting galleries willy-nilly. Of course the answer to the problem is going to be gun control. SMDH.

[jkr]

Rons old district?

[Anti Federalist]

Rons old district?

Yep.

[dannno]

There was a drill. Always a drill.

May wanna save this quote - probably won't end up being the official narrative


Angelica Martinez, a 14-year-old student, told CNN she and her schoolmates were being evacuated at one point "like it's a fire drill.""We were all standing (outside), but not even five minutes later, we started hearing gunshots," she said. "And then everybody starts running, but like the teachers are telling us to stay put, but we're all just running away."

"I didn't see anybody shooting, but like (the gunshots) were kind of spaced," Angelica said, adding she heard about four shots.

[dannno]

It's funny, I've spent probably .0001% of my life doing drills, but 99% of these shooting/terrorist incidents that the media blows up happen during drills.

[EBounding]

There was a drill. Always a drill.

May wanna save this quote - probably won't end up being the official narrative



I believe in other shooting situations, students didn't break windows to escape since that's what they were trained/conditioned to do.

[Michael Landon]

Let me guess.... the shooter used an AR-15?

- ML

[r3volution 3.0]

There was a drill. Always a drill.

May wanna save this quote - probably won't end up being the official narrative...

It's been reported that the shooter pulled the fire alarm to get the students into the hallways.


Let me guess.... the shooter used an AR-15?

- ML

Shotgun, evidently.

[angelatc]

the teachers are telling us to stay put, but we're all just running away.

Holy crap....

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Journalists don't cover suicides much, and when they do it's very delicately as to prevent copycat suicides. Putting these things all over Facebook and the 24-7 news spinners only encourages more of the behavior.

[enhanced_deficit]

This is becoming almost a routine.
There was another incidence being reported:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgTGkidpfuc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgTGkidpfuc

[enhanced_deficit]

You can't get on a plane with a bottle of water but you can just walk in and out of these shooting galleries willy-nilly. Of course the answer to the problem is going to be gun control. SMDH.

Gun control will be far more acceptable for voters than same type of policing at schools.

http://www.menwithfoilhats.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/tsa_dees.jpg

[Wooden Indian]

It never stops.

[
url]*****cnn****/2018/05/18/us/texas-school-shooting/index.html[/url]

Warning: 5 seconds after clicking the CNN link in the OP, I was alerted that it was requesting permission to record audio on my device. Thank you Firefox and privacy plugins!

[dannno]

Antifa?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCjE1wq7E04

[Suzanimal]

Holy crap....

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Journalists don't cover suicides much, and when they do it's very delicately as to prevent copycat suicides. Putting these things all over Facebook and the 24-7 news spinners only encourages more of the behavior.

I agree. I also noticed a lot of Twitter comments asking news sources not to publish his name.

[Suzanimal]

Antifa?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCjE1wq7E04

A photo of his shirt taken off his FB.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5745025/Texas-high-school-placed-lockdown-amid-reports-active-shooter.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailus#ixzz5FstSZ0ZY
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/05/18/19/4C689AE000000578-5745025-image-a-111_1526668866378.jpg

It appears he's a communist, Canadian, Nazi, Cthulhu worshiper who's into pocket watches.

[Raginfridus]

A photo of his shirt taken off his FB.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5745025/Texas-high-school-placed-lockdown-amid-reports-active-shooter.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailus#ixzz5FstSZ0ZY
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/05/18/19/4C689AE000000578-5745025-image-a-111_1526668866378.jpg

It appears he's a communist, Canadian, Nazi, Cthulhu worshiper who's into pocket watches.

Is that Canada or Japan?

Satanic button too?

Is this from his fedbook?

[TheTexan]

My prayers are with the Sante Fe police, may they all return home safely

[Raginfridus]

https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/dimitios-facebook.jpg

[TheTexan]

You can't get on a plane with a bottle of water but you can just walk in and out of these shooting galleries willy-nilly. Of course the answer to the problem is going to be gun control. SMDH.

Yes, the TSA has a flawless safety record. Just imagine how many lives would be saved if we installed TSA at our schools.

(Not to mention the jobs and salary increases for our brave and deserving employees at the TSA)

[Suzanimal]

Is that Canada or Japan?:confused: My poor vision thought it was a maple leaf but I could easily be wrong.


Satanic button too?
I dunno. I'm not up on my Satanic insignia.


Is this from his fedbook?
According to The Daily Mail.

[Raginfridus]

https://i.imgur.com/yxeyP6s.png

What a ***.

He perfectly embodies Modernity.

[RonZeplin]

Seems more like a Young Dick Cheney Republican than anything else.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSez3ftJC46JrU0hfpw7HoSr4QlHQvrY qByHKI0rpUI4zZbZw2N

[dannno]

https://i.imgur.com/yxeyP6s.png

What a ***.

He perfectly embodies Modernity.


Then the answer is obvious. SSRIs.

[Raginfridus]

Then the answer is obvious. SSRIs.

Also: social media.

He built a fedbook exhibition all for himself, and whatever tumbleweeds saw his tweeters and shit. It should die.

We know those sites do not promote free speech./They are Federal plants.

[devil21]

Is that Canada or Japan?

Or Israel? edit: It is missing the blue stripes though. Looks like Japan after closer examination. Japan is the 'rising sun'. Sun worship. Many Freemason lodges named 'Rising Sun Lodge #XXX'.



Satanic button too?

Is this from his fedbook?

All of the symbols are of significance to secret societies.

Cthulhu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypt_of_Cthulhu

Maltese Cross (Knights of Malta)

Israeli flag (Seal of Solomon) (edit: may not be Israeli flag, Japan is 'rising sun', sun worship)

Inverse pentagram, Satan

Hammer and Sickle Pentagram, Communism

I'm not aware of any particular pocket watch symbolism. Could be something akin to "the clock is ticking".

I interpret that photo as being a calling card and warning to those who find meaning in the symbols.

[Raginfridus]

You can find those same symbols, or similar ones, in tribal paintings with no connection to this ******. The sickness of the postmodern age taking host in malleable idiots and malcontents, in the healthy and "reasonable" minds of our educated, drinking them dry of their humanity and using them, to crawl to their graves through material filth like worms, is Satanism though.

[Anti Globalist]

Here come the Dems calling for gun control.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

The alleged shooter used a shotgun and a .38 revolver that were legally owned by his father,...

***

...shooter...wore like a trench coat almost every day.

***

[TX governor]: "...we take action to step up and make sure this tragedy is never repeated ever again."

***

Authorities later found explosive devices -- including pipe bombs and pressure cookers...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/18/us/texas-school-shooting/index.html




List of items to ban:


Shotguns
Revolvers
Trench coats
History
Pipes
Cookers

[Jamesiv1]

wuts up

[Raginfridus]

List of items to ban:


Shotguns
Revolvers
Trench coats
History
Pipes
Cookers

Schools

[PursuePeace]

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/05/18/santa-fe-high-school-shooting-suspect-dimitrios-pagourtiz-emotionally-bullied/23438298/


A student who survived the Texas school shooting on Friday has spoken out about the accused gunman, saying that he was 'emotionally bullied' by his classmates and coaches.

Dustin Severin, an 11th-grade student at Santa Fe High School, told KRIV that the suspected shooter, 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtiz, was constantly teased at school, but that he believed it never escalated into anything physical.

"I know he's picked on by coaches and other students. He didn't really talk to anyone," he told the station. "My friends from the football team told me that coaches said he smelled, like, right in front of his face. And other kids would look at him and laugh at him ... nothing like physical but they still emotionally bullied him."

[kcchiefs6465]

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/05/18/santa-fe-high-school-shooting-suspect-dimitrios-pagourtiz-emotionally-bullied/23438298/
How tragic.

[Wooden Indian]

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/05/18/santa-fe-high-school-shooting-suspect-dimitrios-pagourtiz-emotionally-bullied/23438298/

And kids have been "emotionally bullied" since FOREVER and a day. What's changed? They're told they're all special and unique little snowflakes, never do wrong, and everyone in the world that does them "wrong" is a monster. Maybe... just maybe... the kid could have used a shower and some damn BO control.

Nah, let's just kill everyone that hurt my little pea feelings. Jackasses.

[Anti Globalist]

So is there going to be a Texas version of Emma Gonzales?

[r3volution 3.0]

It's been reported that the shooter was into neo-NAZI sites.

...any thoughts on that (perhaps someone would like to argue that all Europeans are to blame?)

That is the prevailing logic, no?

[Swordsmyth]

It's been reported that the shooter was into neo-NAZI sites.

...any thoughts on that (perhaps someone would like to argue that all Europeans are to blame?)

That is the prevailing logic, no?


Antifa?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCjE1wq7E04

If he was antifa then he may have been doing opposition research to decide who to target.

[r3volution 3.0]

If he was antifa then he may have been doing opposition research to decide who to target.

Or he was just what he appears to be, a loser who can't get laid (neo-NAZI).

[dannno]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMk_803Yfwg

[dannno]

Or he was just what he appears to be, a loser who can't get laid (neo-NAZI).

Greek Orthodox.

[Swordsmyth]

Or he was just what he appears to be, a loser who can't get laid (neo-monarchist).

Fixed it.

[r3volution 3.0]

Fixed it.

Yea, there are hordes of monarchists roaming round the country (me and, like, three other guys); they must be stopped!

...that's every droll, but the fact is that there is a large number of borderline retarded persons who now identify with the new nationalism.

Enjoy your company.

[r3volution 3.0]

Greek Orthodox.

Right, and...?

He was evidently a neo-NAZI, thinking that Greeks (LMFAO) are a superior race.

Well, in any event, good luck with all that.

[Swordsmyth]

Yea, there are hordes of monarchists roaming round the country (me and, like, three other guys); they must be stopped!

...that's every droll, but the fact is that there is a large number of borderline retarded persons who now identify with the new nationalism.

Enjoy your company.

There are even more globalists running around doing evil things.
Enjoy your company.

[r3volution 3.0]

There are even more globalists running around doing evil things.
Enjoy your company.

Boy, that was a good one...

[Swordsmyth]

During a May 18 Fox News appearance Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) said it is time for Americans to take a stand and say, “We’re not going to leave our kids defenseless.” His comments came in the wake of the shooting that killed at least 8 at Santa Fe High School.
Paul said (https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/997533467041726475), “Why don’t we say it as a country – we’re not going to leave our kids defenseless. We’re going to defend them.”
He also spoke to Hollywood celebrities who react to a high profile firearm-based crime with calls for more gun control, saying, “Every Hollywood actor that hates guns has armed bodyguards defending them. So they hate guns unless the guns are defending them.”

More at: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/05/18/sen-rand-paul-its-time-to-say-were-not-going-to-leave-our-kids-defenseless/

[Valli6]

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/05/18/santa-fe-high-school-shooting-suspect-dimitrios-pagourtiz-emotionally-bullied/23438298/
The kid being interviewed (Dustin Severin) literally blames the coaches for making the shooter snap. Sounds like they did act like dicks, as dumb jocks often do. I wonder if officials will publicly admit that the coach helped goad an unstable kid into shooting up the school? Thought they were all forced to undergo anti-bullying training now - don't they get special funding for that?

It’s stupid. The coaches can’t talk to students like that, make fun of ‘em. That’s their fault. It’s strictly their fault - not the kids fault. No ones tried to talk to him or be nice to him.
(@ 2:04) https://www.click2houston.com/news/police-confirm-reports-of-active-shooter-at-santa-fe-high-school
(scroll way down if you want to see the video, kid in black nike hat)

[kcchiefs6465]

The kid being interviewed (Dustin Severin) literally blames the coaches for making the shooter snap. Sounds like they did act like dicks, as dumb jocks often do. I wonder if officials will publicly admit that the coach helped goad an unstable kid into shooting up the school? Thought they were all forced to undergo anti-bullying training now - don't they get special funding for that?

(@ 2:04) https://www.click2houston.com/news/police-confirm-reports-of-active-shooter-at-santa-fe-high-school
(scroll way down if you want to see the video, kid in black nike hat)
As others have said, who cares?

Being teased, bullied etc. does not begin to excuse randomly shooting people.

It is no one's fault but the perpetrator/s. The excuses are a little bit sickening in my opinion.

[pcosmar]

As others have said, who cares?

Being teased, bullied etc. does not begin to excuse randomly shooting people.

It is no one's fault but the perpetrator/s. The excuses are a little bit sickening in my opinion.

And I ask the same question I always ask.

Who was his Handler?

[Valli6]

As others have said, who cares?
Being teased, bullied etc. does not begin to excuse randomly shooting people.
Of course it doesn't. I think this is obvious.
But I do care, because when the politicians start throwing around the blame, they are going to want to talk about guns and guns ONLY!

Meanwhile, school officials already expect taxpayers to fund anti-bullying programs and special training. How many billions are spent on this kind of crap - psychologists, training, whatever - to ensure that "no one slips through the cracks"? Assuming that this is the case, how come the coach chose to keep insulting this less-popular kid - whom other students have described as "pretty nice" "quiet" "not hateful" and also "sad"?

Yes, I do believe this teacher may be responsible for pushing this dumb, disturbed kid over the edge. He didn't pull the trigger, but as an adult with special training, he should have known better than to feed his own ego by repeatedly humiliating an unhappy kid. Guess he's not laughing anymore, right?

I want to hear the teachers' union, and the adults on the school board, explain exactly how this kind of funding is spent. What kind of plan did they develop? How did they expect to identify which student might be in danger of snapping? and why did they fail to involve themselves with this particular kid? Are their ideas even realistic?! or did they just look for ways to spend "free" money with no concern about actually saving any student?

Now, they're going to be asking for still more money. Before everyone happily agrees to hand it over, ("Duhrrrr, anyting for duh children!") the protocol schools currently use needs to be examined under a microscope.

[phill4paul]

Of course it doesn't. I think this is obvious.
But I do care, because when the politicians start throwing around the blame, they are going to want to talk about guns and guns ONLY!

Meanwhile, school officials already expect taxpayers to fund anti-bullying programs and special training. How many billions are spent on this kind of crap - psychologists, training, whatever - to ensure that "no one slips through the cracks"? Assuming that this is the case, how come the coach chose to keep insulting this less-popular kid - whom other students have described as "pretty nice" "quiet" "not hateful" and also "sad"?

Yes, I do believe this teacher may be responsible for pushing this dumb, disturbed kid over the edge. He didn't pull the trigger, but as an adult with special training, he should have known better than to feed his own ego by repeatedly humiliating an unhappy kid. Guess he's not laughing anymore, right?

I want to hear the teachers' union, and the adults on the school board, explain exactly how this kind of funding is spent. What kind of plan did they develop? How did they expect to identify which student might be in danger of snapping? and why did they fail to involve themselves with this particular kid? Are their ideas even realistic?! or did they just look for ways to spend "free" money with no concern about actually saving any student?

Now, they're going to be asking for still more money. Before everyone happily agrees to hand it over, ("Duhrrrr, anyting for duh children!") the protocol schools currently use needs to be examined under a microscope.

King Jeremy the Wicked. Haven't read much about his home life or whether he was on SSRI's.

But, you are spot on when you talk about holding the school system accountable. 7-8 adults interact with him over an hour each day. Perhaps 15-20 adults in a given week. And nothing? I don't require teachers to be psychologists. But, I've been a Boy Scout leader and if you interact with someone for an hour, you can tell when something is "off." Unless, they are a true psychopath. And there has been some. In which case no one could see it coming. Apparently, in this case, no one did.

[Swordsmyth]

The Santa Fe, Texas, school district and police have said there were explosive devices found in the Santa Fe High school and in a building off campus after this morning's school shooting (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/school-shooting).
“There have been confirmed reports of explosives found on the campus and off the campus,” Santa Fe Police Chief Jeff Powell said, adding: “That’s our main concern is to keep our community safe". The building has been evacuated after a shooter opened fire and killed at least eight people and injured several others, Chief Walter Braun of Santa Fe Independent School District Police confirmed.
Police have encouraged residents of Santa Fe to exercise caution and call them should they spot any suspicious packages in the area. It is not clear at this time whether any of the explosive devices were detonated and resulted in any of the deaths or injuries. Governor Greg Abbott has confirmed 10 people have died with 10 others injured.

Police identified a suspect, 17-year-old student Dimitrios Pagourtzis, and he is in custody. One other person has been detained but not identified, Mr Abbott said, adding that police are questioning the person.

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/santa-fe-school-shooting-school-173707336.html

[phill4paul]

The Santa Fe, Texas, school district and police have said there were explosive devices found in the Santa Fe High school and in a building off campus after this morning's school shooting (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/school-shooting).
“There have been confirmed reports of explosives found on the campus and off the campus,” Santa Fe Police Chief Jeff Powell said, adding: “That’s our main concern is to keep our community safe". The building has been evacuated after a shooter opened fire and killed at least eight people and injured several others, Chief Walter Braun of Santa Fe Independent School District Police confirmed.
Police have encouraged residents of Santa Fe to exercise caution and call them should they spot any suspicious packages in the area. It is not clear at this time whether any of the explosive devices were detonated and resulted in any of the deaths or injuries. Governor Greg Abbott has confirmed 10 people have died with 10 others injured.

Police identified a suspect, 17-year-old student Dimitrios Pagourtzis, and he is in custody. One other person has been detained but not identified, Mr Abbott said, adding that police are questioning the person.

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/santa-fe-school-shooting-school-173707336.html

Listening to the MSM the other night, only because I wanted to witness the hype, it was reported that at least two explosive devices were found. One a Molotov cocktail the other a CO2 device.

[Raginfridus]

Hearing somebody say molotov cocktail over and over again must be the worst.

[Madison320]

Schools

I was thinking we should outlaw "public" schools. I wonder what percentage of school shootings occur at private schools. Maybe we should let the free market solve this problem.

[Raginfridus]

I was thinking we should outlaw "public" schools. I wonder what percentage of school shootings occur at private schools. Maybe we should let the free market solve this problem.

I haven't heard of any at private schools.

[Swordsmyth]

Houston Police chief Art Acevedo says it's time to do something different to address gun violence in America.
Acevedo sounded off after the latest deadly mass shooting on Friday — this time, in Santa Fe, Texas, where 10 people were killed (http://www.businessinsider.com/santa-fe-high-school-shooting-texas-2018-5) when a student opened fire inside a classroom there.
"Today I spent the day dealing with another mass shooting of children and a responding police officer who is clinging to life. I'm not ashamed to admit I've shed tears of sadness, pain and anger," Acevedo wrote in his Facebook post (https://www.facebook.com/ChiefArtAcevedo/posts/1676298439150998) on Friday.
The police chief criticized the typical gun-rights drumbeat he hears in the wake of mass shootings like the one in Santa Fe, and the many others before it.
"I know some have strong feelings about gun rights," Acevedo said, "but I want you to know I've hit rock bottom and I am not interested in your views as it pertains to this issue."

More at: http://www.businessinsider.com/houston-police-chief-art-acevedo-on-gun-control-mass-shootings-2018-5?r=UK&IR=T

[kcchiefs6465]

Houston Police chief Art Acevedo says it's time to do something different to address gun violence in America.
Acevedo sounded off after the latest deadly mass shooting on Friday — this time, in Santa Fe, Texas, where 10 people were killed (http://www.businessinsider.com/santa-fe-high-school-shooting-texas-2018-5) when a student opened fire inside a classroom there.
"Today I spent the day dealing with another mass shooting of children and a responding police officer who is clinging to life. I'm not ashamed to admit I've shed tears of sadness, pain and anger," Acevedo wrote in his Facebook post (https://www.facebook.com/ChiefArtAcevedo/posts/1676298439150998) on Friday.
The police chief criticized the typical gun-rights drumbeat he hears in the wake of mass shootings like the one in Santa Fe, and the many others before it.
"I know some have strong feelings about gun rights," Acevedo said, "but I want you to know I've hit rock bottom and I am not interested in your views as it pertains to this issue."

More at: http://www.businessinsider.com/houston-police-chief-art-acevedo-on-gun-control-mass-shootings-2018-5?r=UK&IR=T
Acevado... Now that name sounds familiar.

Oh yeah.

The Art Acevedo Defense: At Least My Minions Didn't Rape Her (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444904-The-Art-Acevedo-Defense-At-Least-My-Minions-Didn-t-Rape-Her&p=5430891)

[Wooden Indian]

The police chief criticized the typical gun-rights drumbeat he hears in the wake of mass shootings like the one in Santa Fe, and the many others before it.
"I know some have strong feelings about gun rights," Acevedo said, "but I want you to know I've hit rock bottom and I am not interested in your views as it pertains to this issue."

That part right there SHOULD lead to his immediate dismissal. "I know some of you care about your Rights and the Supreme Law of The Land, but I do not", says the fucking Chief of Police openly and without fear of any repercussion.

That, boys and girls, is how you know your nation is FUCKED.

[dannno]

Acevado... Now that name sounds familiar.

Oh yeah.

The Art Acevedo Defense: At Least My Minions Didn't Rape Her (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444904-The-Art-Acevedo-Defense-At-Least-My-Minions-Didn-t-Rape-Her&p=5430891)

4 years ago wow

[Swordsmyth]

The suspect in Friday's school shooting may be considered an adult in Texas state courts, but he cannot face the death penalty, according to a 2005 federal Supreme Court ruling.

For 100 years, Texas has considered 17-year-olds to be adults when they commit crimes, according to research from The Marshall Project (https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/03/03/the-17-year-old-adults). And Dimitrios Pagourtzis was charged Friday as an adult with capital murder and aggravated assault on a peace officer.

But the 2005 high court ruling that bans execution of criminals younger than 18 and a 2012 ruling about juveniles facing life in prison mean that Pagourtzis could be up for parole after 40 years.

“The courts ruled based on the idea that those 17 and younger don’t have the cognitive development to appreciate right from wrong,” said Michael Radelet, a University of Colorado at Boulder sociology professor who has testified in more than 75 death-penalty cases.

More at: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/05/19/texas-shooter-no-death-penalty/626609002/


“The courts ruled based on the idea that those 17 and younger don’t have the cognitive development to appreciate right from wrong,”
But we should let them dictate public policy and even vote?

[dannno]

But we should let them dictate public policy and even vote?

Consenting investors are the only ones who should really be allowed to vote..

[A Son of Liberty]

The police chief criticized the typical gun-rights drumbeat he hears in the wake of mass shootings like the one in Santa Fe, and the many others before it.
"I know some have strong feelings about gun rights," Acevedo said, "but I want you to know I've hit rock bottom and I am not interested in your views as it pertains to this issue."

More at: http://www.businessinsider.com/houston-police-chief-art-acevedo-on-gun-control-mass-shootings-2018-5?r=UK&IR=T

Well listen here, shtbag: I'm not really interested in your views on this issue, either.

Time's a comin'...

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/18/17369832/santa-fe-high-texas-shooting-dan-patrick


Santa Fe High: Texas lieutenant governor blames shooting on “too many entrances”

After Friday’s shooting at Santa Fe High School, in which at least 10 people were killed and another 10 wounded, several of the state’s leading politicians — Gov. Greg Abbott, Sen. Ted Cruz, and Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick — gave a press conference to talk about the tragedy.

It was a sober affair until Patrick took the mic.

The lieutenant governor, a social conservative firebrand who recently pushed to allow concealed carry in churches, listed off a series of what he called “outside the box” ideas for stopping school shootings. These included having students enter schools at different times (so there’d be fewer crowds to shoot at), parents doing a better job locking up their guns, and, most remarkably, limiting the number of doorways into schools.

“There are too many entrances and too many exits to our over 8,000 campuses,” Patrick said. “There aren’t enough people to put a guard at every entry and exit.”

There are a number of practical problems with this idea. If you have a mass shooter in the building, you don’t want to trap people in the building. It’s not obvious that security guards would be able to spot someone concealing a weapon even if they were at every door; in fact, there were two armed guards at Santa Fe on Friday. And closing most of the entryways to a school would create a serious fire hazard.

Two armed guards were already at the school at the time. Guess that rules out "shooters only go after unarmed gun free zones".

More at link.

https://radio.foxnews.com/2018/05/18/audio-sen-rand-paul-on-santa-fe-shooting-arm-teachers-hang-enter-at-your-peril-signs/


Sen. Rand Paul on Santa Fe Shooting: Arm Teachers, Hang “Enter At Your Peril” Signs

Senator Rand Paul sat down with Tom Shillue as news broke of a shooting at a high school in Santa Fe, Texas.

Paul, who used to live miles from the small Texas town, said these incidents would be less common if potential shooters knew schools were more secure.

By arming teacher and hiring security guards, Sen. Paul believes shooters would be less likely to target schools. And to make it clear to a mass murderer that a school isn't a soft target, Paul suggested hanging signs that say, "enter at your own peril".



Again, this school already had two armed guards. Is Rand calling for an expanded police state?

[pcosmar]

Again, this school already had two armed guards. Is Rand calling for an expanded police state?

He has before.

But this is the direction these events are meant for.. and they are not "Random".. They are deliberate and planed with a purpose. What you are seeing is the result,, The Purpose..

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/81/10/c9/8110c99df9533b4ca6e417a7f84abbab.jpg

http://www.usprisonculture.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/PICfactory.jpg

Drones for Police is a Bad idea too.

[dannno]

Two armed guards were already at the school at the time. Guess that rules out "shooters only go after unarmed gun free zones".



That argument has never been made. You can search the forum far and wide. Even the Florida shooting had an armed guard, but it was still a gun free zone. The argument is always "shooters go after gun free zones"

A gun free zone is one where which civilians, such as teachers, are prevented from being armed.

The argument is that if teachers were allowed to arm themselves, if they choose, then students would be less likely to shoot up a school and if they did the kids would have more people to defend them and a greater chance of survival.

Why you have to come here and mischaracterize Rand Paul is beyond me.

Sen. Rand Paul: Let's arm teachers
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/17/rand-paul-lets-arm-teachers/1843003/

[dannno]

He has before.

Link?

http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/

[Zippyjuan]

That argument has never been made. You can search the forum far and wide. Even the Florida shooting had an armed guard, but it was still a gun free zone. The argument is always "shooters go after gun free zones"

A gun free zone is one where which civilians, such as teachers, are prevented from being armed.

The argument is that if teachers were allowed to arm themselves, if they choose, then students would be less likely to shoot up a school and if they did the kids would have more people to defend them and a greater chance of survival.

Did that work in this case? Most school shootings are because the shooter had a beef with somebody at the school- not because there would be no other guns around (tens of thousands of schools have no armed people there and don't experience shootings).

[dannno]

Did that work in this case?

It was a gun free zone, teachers were not allowed to be armed.

Every public school is a gun free zone.

Stop obfuscating and mischaracterizing.

I made an addendum to my last post you quoted also.

[dannno]

Did that work in this case? Most school shootings are because the shooter had a beef with somebody at the school- not because there would be no other guns around (tens of thousands of schools have no armed people there and don't experience shootings).


Statement from GOA:



Just ask yourself, do you think most Americans heard that a school resource officer (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxCQlmgkB-X4YorSpSFC3PLUeVzQ44VZB7-nzHwYuck7gv4autacnKZESXDdw8G-VsFtsSqnGSODTaOti7iIFfjWE5nmJXMaeIzu-LNu1wxHLbiXVl-CZjhacunpn7uCwPaomg8lkZSsc27gCaMkznOn-Ym5D8GTk5QeY8OwJomzs&lp=0) used gun to stop school shooter in Illinois this week?

Or did they see the dramatic video of a Brazilian mom (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxflpHnmLm1ZvSXS_ge00Xo1 q3VSAswXou6P3sBq8dpgxlQ4d60Z5vdcBBuKY6VTVOGkj8SzGt KTFYb-_otsg6mgp9ejUt8vf4EA4vsk2NfhrfwmQUFvjqs5V8Q7bcxQx8 1Z7NrKjtI6YGaF89tMM_Lg&lp=0) -- who was also an off-duty cop -- who used her concealed firearm to stop a school shooter in Sao Paulo?

(http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxEkfSxqNwNoWamudrR8r4SK-bmeCAloQPDbNxNz6eDYoIO3Mo76_-FQz4SM1NKPNEEQ4FWgGoec7PCCsvFlItqvjH8KLDIFe1tI5fLz gTF0Vq9Ik2KBz9VenLtWbnfpO8K5TrcHVMMFMEEcUcqltaUQ&lp=0)And what about the other positive examples where guns have been used to save lives all across the country, such as here (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAx21Bn0VCSMLQBChVRvtyNyu qSNtkkOtCchC714ut9yIvOWQjwDgB3D0ukoWt4stNe_NJpSe7I qQWRFgphkahWW-0sjhLkzCy4-NFxhOIBeWqDaKerir-DmmdBDLj4vFf4aq5HLE2wbm35uKaOudc1EiBfIvMuFfNqlDfIZ UcrwKRKOpaU-ttxRTrIKXNSxhtk2GbJZIiWaJZwevpvmLr0Nw&lp=0), here (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxMaLTlWmYxQCJ3HIGXKl1w0 Vu4hK18lyJb_gNxuRJW6PLhd2rLIjw4KPKWqceg6Pz8MhPC8q1 5DcUtFZyw3XWv-nDd7-SzCFpH9dES7UN5M70fhPVBjb2Vg1TwRu8RXnc7JvEOG1j0geu9 yhUhFRqbGN1Aa7dQ-hV9SynaW4o-MNrskKEuc2uKuG7aw22POmtQqObbrWR4t10KNlAWAxPWg&lp=0) and here (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxsfZu57WWmI4JNuvohdT2J2 VAxWUPxlYtnffe9nxzZ3Gom1amDJkKbYYPZ763xsAV1rT-UV-iwG7h_fAqo-IRZra_4q3a1f3qq7MsN1aoIHe8tqY_E0fSGwwGExtbo4-diuJ27BL_PZm4CiypR_sQVLqIxKGEviBSWJpeSEYHXjO1ibaWw mphP_3X9SMV533s&lp=0)?

Do you think most Americans heard that a Florida man used his AR-15 (http://cqrcengage.com/gunowners/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxe48nFBlSmEsGRTR9AcTjlQ M0YYWeaMagz8xhUsPRSTDvqLLyUGPqe1C30_kechQ6K_gdLmvo oLcJ-pq4XyNEa9LP2YiTEoq-tHqBXRVwf1j3HurxnBlxpfBbTYS1jHIQLR8Ir3LSurOxBdWdZF MCpnIZZ78eSFntRaFkXrIuY8bnEdvTJ-TtzVAV2o13sxJDH2IG_CCdj6KFZlZFJTuUMg&lp=0) about a month ago to stop seven intruders in his home?

Of course not. The media ignores these positive uses of firearms. And then when a tragedy like today occurs, they say, "Here we go again."

But they can only maintain their "here we go again" mantra by ignoring the beneficial uses of guns in America.

[Zippyjuan]

It was a gun free zone, teachers were not allowed to be armed.

Every public school is a gun free zone.

Stop obfuscating and mischaracterizing.

I made an addendum to my last post you quoted also.

It was known to all that there were armed guards at the school. That did not deter the shooter.

[Zippyjuan]

Statement from GOA:

Did the presence of other guns deter the shooter from firing in the first place? No. That is not show ending gun free zones will end shootings. (I am not arguing against owning guns).

Rand agrees actually.


"Is there a way to make man peaceful? Probably not, but I think at the same time there are some reasonable things we can look at. I think there is going to be a great deal of discussion on whether or not we should allow something that's legal to be turned into something illegal."

Paul went on to say that even if stricter regulations were in place, there was likely no rule that could have stopped Paddock.

That was in response to the Florida shooting. http://wjla.com/news/connect-to-congress/sen-paul-calls-gun-control-a-complicated-issue-10-08-2017

He has also said: http://wjla.com/news/connect-to-congress/sen-paul-calls-gun-control-a-complicated-issue-10-08-2017


“We get so distracted in the debate of banning guns that we don’t have the debate we should have,” Paul added. He then mentioned that there is a difference between “crazy people with guns” and “the rest of us.”

[Swordsmyth]

It was known to all that there were armed guards at the school. That did not deter the shooter.
Not all tragedies can be averted zip, but more guns = less crime.

[Zippyjuan]

Not all tragedies can be averted zip, but more guns = less crime.

School shootings are thankfully rare (though they get lots of publicity). There aren't ways you can legislate and prevent them. More guns. Less guns.

[Swordsmyth]

School shootings are thankfully rare (though they get lots of publicity). There aren't ways you can legislate and prevent them. More guns. Less guns.

Less guns = more crime
More guns = less crime
Deterrence can't be perfect but it is effective.

[Zippyjuan]

Less guns = more crime
More guns = less crime
Deterrence can't be perfect but it is effective.

So if the government gave everybody a gun there would be zero crime?

"With more weapons, there would be no more wars". (guns on a global scale).

[timosman]

So if the government gave everybody a gun there would be zero crime?

So if you stopped using logical fallacies your rep bar would go to green?

[Swordsmyth]

So if the government gave everybody a gun there would be zero crime?

"With more weapons, there would be no more wars". (guns on a global scale).


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Swordsmyth http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6631672#post6631672)

Less guns = more crime
More guns = less crime
Deterrence can't be perfect but it is effective.


Without guns there would be more crime, in ancient times the strong could prey upon the weak with impunity, edged weapons altered that equation but strength and skill still gave a great enough advantage to be tempting, guns allow any potential victim to point and click to deliver death to an assailant, it changes the calculation much more than edged weapons did.
Guns prevent much more crime than they facilitate, you must remember that most of the crimes in which guns are used would have taken place without them but most of the crimes they prevent wouldn't have been prevented without them.

[Zippyjuan]

strong could prey upon the weak with impunity,

They still do.

[Swordsmyth]

They still do.
You should make a habit of forcing yourself to read the entire post that you reply to.

Let me help:

Edged weapons altered that equation but strength and skill still gave a great enough advantage to be tempting, guns allow any potential victim to point and click to deliver death to an assailant, it changes the calculation much more than edged weapons did.
Guns prevent much more crime than they facilitate, you must remember that most of the crimes in which guns are used would have taken place without them but most of the crimes they prevent wouldn't have been prevented without them.

[dannno]

Did the presence of other guns deter the shooter from firing in the first place? No. That is not show ending gun free zones will end shootings. (I am not arguing against owning guns).

Actually you are wrong, the Aurora movie theater shooter could have shot up at least one theater that was closer to his house (I think there may have even been multiple) but those theathers allowed people to bring in concealed guns. So he skipped over those and went to the closest theater that was a gun free zone.

Mass shootings almost always happen in gun free zones, where people are not allowed to arm themselves.

[Swordsmyth]

Houston Chief of Police Art Acevedo warned Sunday that “inaction of elected officials” against gun violence means there will be more school shootings like the one that killed nine students and a teacher last week in Santa Fe, Texas.

“People at the state level and the federal level in too many places in our country are not doing anything other than offering prayers,” Acevedo said on Sunday’s Face the Nation program.
The “vast majority” of gun owners in the United States “are pragmatic and actually support gun sense and gun reform in terms of keeping guns in the right hands,” Acevedo said.
“We need to start using the ballot box and ballot initiatives to take the matters out of the hands of people that are doing nothing that are elected into the hands of the people to see that the will of the people in this country is actually carried out.”
Asked what specific laws could have prevented the Santa Fe shooting, where the shooter apparently used guns legally obtained by his father and no semi-automatic rifle was used, Acevedo urged tougher criminal liability for those who do not adequately secure their firearms.

More at: https://thinkprogress.org/houston-police-chief-vote-out-gun-rights-elected-officials-6b55c393cc9e/

[pcosmar]

Link?


"If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and $50 in cash, I don't care if a drone kills him or a policeman kills him,"

Quote.. Rand Paul..
That pissed me off before he voted to Fund a Foreign Hoax. (Iron Dome for Israel).

next?

[Zippyjuan]

Actually you are wrong, the Aurora movie theater shooter could have shot up at least one theater that was closer to his house (I think there may have even been multiple) but those theathers allowed people to bring in concealed guns. So he skipped over those and went to the closest theater that was a gun free zone.

Mass shootings almost always happen in gun free zones, where people are not allowed to arm themselves.

Most mass shootings happen where there are large numbers of people. There are hundreds of thousands of "gun free zones" where there has not been a mass shooting.


https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/james-holmes-diary-aurora-gun-free-zones-debunked/


It’s an argument we hear frequently from gun rights activists and conservative lawmakers: Mass shooters select places to attack where citizens are banned from carrying firearms—so-called “gun-free zones.” All the available data shows that this claim is just plain wrong. As I reported in an investigation into nearly 70 mass shootings in the United States over three decades, there has never been any known evidence of gun laws influencing a mass shooter’s strategic thinking. In fact, the vast majority of the perpetrators have indicated other specific motivations for striking their targets, such as employment grievances or their connection to a school.

Most recently, the marquee villain used to decry gun-free zones is James Holmes, who is currently on trial for the July 2012 massacre in Aurora, Colorado. “Out of all the movie theaters within 20 minutes of his apartment showing the new Batman movie that night, it was the only one where guns were banned,” Fox News pundit John Lott wrote not long after the attack. “So why would a mass shooter pick a place that bans guns? The answer should be obvious, though it apparently is not clear to the media—disarming law-abiding citizens leaves them as sitting ducks.”

Now, with the release this week of a detailed handwritten diary that Holmes kept before the attack, we know that there is no evidence to support Lott’s widely parroted claim.

The diary includes five pages in which Holmes laid out his strategy for attacking the Cinemark theater complex. Under the header “Case the Place,” he drew maps and diagrams accompanied by many tactical notes regarding where victims would be located and how they would potentially react. “South side of theater optimal,” he wrote, noting its “15 screens.” He zeroed in on theaters 10 and 12 as the “best targets in complex” and marked the “best parking spot” for his car. Among his lists of “pros” and “cons,” he observed that theater 10 would have “many initial persons packed in single area.” He assessed the many doors and hallways through which people would try to escape.

Nowhere in any of this extensive planning did Holmes make reference to gun regulations at the theater or the potential for moviegoers to be armed. Moreover, he had every expectation that he would not get away with his crime. In one sketch, he drew two other locations not far from the theater: the Aurora Police Department and a Colorado National Guard facility. “ETA response [approximately] 3 mins,” he noted. In his list of possible methods of attack, where he checked off mass murder using firearms as his choice, he also wrote “being caught 99% certain.”

Additional evidence from the trial underscores that Holmes clearly was not planning to avoid getting shot, killed, or apprehended. On an AdultFriendFinder.com profile he filled out shortly before the shooting, he wrote: “Will you visit me in prison?”

More including copies of his notes at link.

[pcosmar]

School shootings are thankfully rare (though they get lots of publicity). There aren't ways you can legislate and prevent them. More guns. Less guns.

Every one of these mass shootings have one thing in common.

A common denominator. (SSRI Drugs)

They also share another common and historically searchable similarity.. a history of contact with disreputable agencies.

|Terrorist Plots, Hatched by the F.B.I.


THE United States has been narrowly saved from lethal terrorist plots in recent years — or so it has seemed. A would-be suicide bomber was intercepted on his way to the Capitol; a scheme to bomb synagogues and shoot Stinger missiles at military aircraft was developed by men in Newburgh, N.Y.; and a fanciful idea to fly explosive-laden model planes into the Pentagon and the Capitol was hatched in Massachusetts.

But all these dramas were facilitated by the F.B.I., whose undercover agents and informers posed as terrorists offering a dummy missile, fake C-4 explosives, a disarmed suicide vest and rudimentary training. Suspects naïvely played their parts until they were arrested.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/terrorist-plots-helped-along-by-the-fbi.html

When hasn't the government been behind stupid shit?

Why would I think that they are not pushing an agenda that they are very clearly following?

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/05/20/texas-school-shooting-suspect-targeted-teen-who-rejected-him-mom-says/626861002/

No indications latest shooter was on any meds.


Texas school shooting: Gunman targeted my daughter because she rejected him, grieving mom says

The family of one of the victim's in the Texas high school shooting says they believe their daughter was targeted because she repeatedly rejected the gunman's advances to date her.

Shana Fisher, a 16-year-old student, was one of the 10 killed in Friday's attack at Santa Fe High School. Her mother said the shooting followed four months of advancements from the suspected gunman, Dimitrios Pagourtzis, 17, which could point to a potential motive.

She "had four months of problems" with Pagourtzis, her mother, Sadie Rodriguez, told the Los Angeles Times. "He kept making advances on her and she repeatedly told him no."

But Pagourtzis continued to get more aggressive, Rodriguez said.

A week before the shooting, Fisher embarrassed him in front of others in a class by standing up and telling Pagourtzis that she wouldn't go out with him, Rodriguez told CNN.

Police haven't released a motive in the attack, but after Pagourtzis was arrested he told officers that he targeted students he didn't like and wanted his story told, according to an affidavit filed in Galveston County court.

[pcosmar]

.usatoday.

A whole story based on what some girls parents believe.


The family of one of the victim's in the Texas high school shooting says they believe their daughter was targeted

and how is it relevant?

[Zippyjuan]

A whole story based on what some girls parents believe.

and how is it relevant?

Any links to him being on meds?

His attorney says there were none. https://www.ksat.com/news/texas/reports-of-active-shooter-at-houston-area-high-school


Poehl said Saturday that there was no history of mental health issues with Pagourtzis, though there may be "some indications of family history." He said it was too early to elaborate.

[pcosmar]

Any links to him being on meds?

Had not looked. there always is.. I am sure it will surface that he was treated for depression or some other such.

Who gave him guns?

Who allowed unlocked guns anywhere in the vicinity of a troubled kid?

Edit,, Dads guns answered...

Who was the handler? The second person (always a second person)
The second (person of interest) held has not been named.

[Zippyjuan]

Had not looked. there always is.. I am sure it will surface that he was treated for depression or some other such.

Who gave him guns?

Who allowed unlocked guns anywhere in the vicinity of a troubled kid?

I guess he took them from his father (or perhaps his father gave them to him).

https://www.khou.com/article/news/crime/santa-fe-shooting-suspect-targeted-people-he-didnt-like-officer-says/285-553862431


Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said Pagourtzis had planned to kill himself but instead surrendered, calling him a coward.

Abbott said the teen used a shotgun and a .38 revolver legally owned by his father.



Who allowed unlocked guns anywhere in the vicinity of a troubled kid?

Should we restrict guns for people seen as mentally unstable? Background checks prior to sales perhaps? Maybe get the kid on some meds or into some treatment before he hurts somebody? Should everybody be monitored?

I agree that the shooters all seem to be mentally unstable- normal people don't do things like that. They were in treatment because they already had issues. Did meds cause them to go nuts- or were they already nuts and put on meds for that?

[Weston White]

The news interupted coverage of this shooting to report and literally gush over how much of a cool cat that the "prince" is.

Also, YouTube altered its header logo (which I always use to get back to the main page for a fresh search) to link to the entire "royal" wedding.

Seriously, it is very worrisome that there is such a public push for the ideal of a monarch on everybody--a truly antiquated, space-wasting useless form of government, and one that was born from blatant deception, lies, and fraud.

[pcosmar]

Should we restrict guns for people seen as mentally unstable?

That is the direction some want to take.

Who defines who is stable? What if they are crazy?

Perhaps you are too young to remember a time before,,,,

When many pick-up trucks and car trunks had guns in them..
Where students traded ammo at school.,, and shootings were rare hunting accidents or dumb mistakes.
Fist fights were as violent as school ever got.. and guns were common and quite available.. Gun Free zones were not created or even envisioned.

What is different? at some point it all changed.
The change corresponds to the introduction of Mind Control Drugs.. especially to children.

It is either a Massive failure of the Pharmaceutical and medical communities..

or it is achieving its intended goal. Programmable Killers.

[Zippyjuan]

Fist fights were as violent as school ever got.. and guns were common and quite available..

Fist fights expanded to use knives and then to hand guns. Each level let you stay farther away from the victim. An arms race. If he is going to hit you, you need a knife to protect yourself. If he is going to have a knife, you need a gun. If he has a pistol, you want a better gun. In China or Japan they are more likely to use knives because the don't have many guns.

There also used to be sanitariums you could send off people to if you thought they were crazy. Now you just give them pills.

There isn't an easy answer. More guns won't help. Banning guns won't help. Can't lock everybody up for what they might do.

[pcosmar]

Fist fights expanded to use knives and then to hand guns. .

Rarely at school,, at least mine..
Lots of guys and some girls carried knives.. but they were not used in fights as a rule.. It was rare.

Violence increased in this country as the CIA entered the drug trade in the late 70s.. Created Crack,, Funded friends,,etc..

[Swordsmyth]

Fist fights expanded to use knives and then to hand guns. Each level let you stay farther away from the victim. An arms race. If he is going to hit you, you need a knife to protect yourself. If he is going to have a knife, you need a gun. If he has a pistol, you want a better gun. In China or Japan they are more likely to use knives because the don't have many guns.

There also used to be sanitariums you could send off people to if you thought they were crazy. Now you just give them pills.

There isn't an easy answer.

If you don't have an easy answer then leave things be, you are much more likely to make things worse than make them better.
If you want to find the best possible answer look for the cause instead of the symptom.

[Zippyjuan]

Rarely at school,, at least mine..
Lots of guys and some girls carried knives.. but they were not used in fights as a rule.. It was rare.

Violence increased in this country as the CIA entered the drug trade in the late 70s.. Created Crack,, Funded friends,,etc..

Actually violence goes back a long ways. Even to the 1800's in this country. https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

Modern weapons just make it easier to kill larger numbers at one time.

[pcosmar]

Actually violence goes back a long ways. Even to the 1800's in this country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

Violence yes,,

Massive school shootings by high school students is a new development..
Despite increased gun control and Gun Free Zones.

[Zippyjuan]

Numbers of shootings per year (per 100 million people to account for population changes):
https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/a4b4a22/2147483647/resize/658x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Fa4%2F0a%2 Ff720b9af43938f84324fe8cdeaa0%2Fshooting-rate.jpg

Victims per year (per 100 million people- includes injuries along with deaths)

https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/77afa75/2147483647/resize/658x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F7d%2Ff8%2 F5ac7e7c943aa9110044d245c9349%2Fscreen-shot-2017-10-04-at-11.45.56-AM.jpg

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/School-Firearm-Deaths-K-12-Univ.jpeg


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/04/mass-shootings-more-deadly-frequent-research-215678


There is, by now, a familiar script to it all: A mass public shooting, followed by waves of grief and outrage, then calls for gun control on the one hand and harrumphing about politicizing tragedies on the other. The news stories and statements by political leaders write themselves, with only the location, name of the shooter and number of casualties changing. It all seems so routine.

But this perception isn’t because of some unprecedented rise in the rate of mass public shootings—far from it. They’re roughly as common now as they were in the 1980s and ’90s. And the data offer a stark finding: Over the past decade, mass public shootings haven’t become particularly more prevalent, they’ve simply become deadlier.

A mass public shooting, as I’ve defined it in my research, is any incident in which four or more victims are killed with a firearm within a 24-hour period at a public location in the absence of other criminal activity (robberies, drug deals, gang “turf wars”), military conflict or collective violence. For instance, last year’s mass murder at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando would qualify, but the 1890 massacre at Wounded Knee would not, nor would a familicide in a private home, nor a shootout between rival gangs.

Within these boundaries, there have been 140 mass public shootings in the United States since 1976 (the rest have been mostly familicides and felony-related massacres), which amounts to an average of a little more than three per year. When we’re looking at trends in the incidence and severity of mass public shootings over time, it’s necessary—just as it is with other types of crime—to adjust for changes in the size of the U.S. population.

Since the mid-2000s, the incidence of mass public shootings on a per capita basis has been a bit higher than it was in the preceding 10 years. But the rates over the past 10 years are no higher than in the late 1980s and early '90s, when the frequency of mass public shootings led to the creation of policies designed to address violence in schools and workplaces. Most notably, the growing number of high-profile mass public shootings in that era helped bring about the 1994 enactment of the federal assault weapons ban, which was allowed to expire in 2004.

What has increased over time is the number of people shot in these incidents. Looking at annual trends in the total number of victims shot in mass public shootings (on a per capita basis), you can see that the severity has recently increased, reaching a 40-year high. Because the trends in the rates at which victims have been killed and wounded have been similar, I focus on the total number of victims shot (either killed or wounded). Before 2012, the five-year moving average never exceeded 20 victims shot (per 100 million Americans). Since then, the five-year moving average rate has been above 20 every year but one (2014).

This may help to explain why shootings seem more common, even though they aren’t. Research shows that the number of victims killed and wounded are the strongest predictors of the extent to which a mass killing gets reported by the news media. Recent growth in the number of catastrophic mass public shootings—combined with the extensive, wall-to-wall news coverage that accompanies these tragedies—likely accounts for the commonly held misconception that mass shootings are now more frequent.

More at link.

[euphemia]

IShould we restrict guns for people seen as mentally unstable?

I would not trust the leftists in government, or anywhere else, to judge the mental stability of anyone. Not as far as I could throw them.

[Zippyjuan]

I would not trust the leftists in government, or anywhere else, to judge the mental stability of anyone. Not as far as I could throw them.

I would not trust conservatives to do it either.

[euphemia]

I would not trust conservatives to do it either.

It's not a government decision at all. The leftists are the ones who want to label pro-lifers as criminals. They run the schools and they are the ones who want to drug all the kids. A girl can't take Tylenol to school for menstrual cramps, but the school will label every active child ADHD and have them put on drugs so they can get "special needs" money. They are the ones who suspend little kids for hugging or biting a graham cracker into the shape of a gun.

[pcosmar]

More at link.

I am Class of 75.. your charts start later..

I am also Class of 75 at Ft. Polk La. I was there training during the Fall of Saigon.

for perspective,,

[pcosmar]

I would not trust conservatives to do it either.

I do not trust Government period. regardless of who is running it..

They all have the same traits.

[Zippyjuan]

I am Class of 75.. your charts start later..

Did you see the other list? https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

They count 17 in the 1950's and eleven in the 1960's.

[pcosmar]

Did you see the other list? https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states

They count 17 in the 1950's and eleven in the 1960's.

Shot by students,??, or during riots??
Are the Kent State Murders included?

I am not talking about gang members with zip guns.
There have never been mass shootings with zip guns.

And I had access to Full Auto M-14s in High School.. so don't even discuss the limited availability today.

Chicago,, in the worst of the gangster era was nothing like the CIA and Gangs,,
Friggin crates of Modern Guns just show up in allies?
Crack (CIA Created) increases both profits and addiction.

Fusion Centers Coordinate Police and Federal shenanigans.

And there are 100 more zombies ready to be triggered for every one you see in the news.
Anywhere they want one.

prove me wrong..

[pcosmar]

And there are 100 more zombies ready to be triggered for every one you see in the news.
Anywhere they want one.

prove me wrong..

These ones showed up at an Open Carry Rally.. to protest..

Zombies everywhere waiting for some puppet-master or merry prankster to give them direction.


https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/33025902_207477540047327_3379890226863276032_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=0&oh=8ab5fbeeaf1435b2a2c7fb9029e1f44c&oe=5B8CA183

[Zippyjuan]

Shot by students,??, or during riots??
Are the Kent State Murders included?

I am not talking about gang members with zip guns.
There have never been mass shootings with zip guns.

And I had access to Full Auto M-14s in High School.. so don't even discuss the limited availability today.

Chicago,, in the worst of the gangster era was nothing like the CIA and Gangs,,
Friggin crates of Modern Guns just show up in allies?
Crack (CIA Created) increases both profits and addiction.

Fusion Centers Coordinate Police and Federal shenanigans.

And there are 100 more zombies ready to be triggered for every one you see in the news.
Anywhere they want one.

prove me wrong..


And there are 100 more zombies ready to be triggered for every one you see in the news.

I can't disagree with that. Some just want to be recognized or famous so they copy other shooters who got attention.


Here is a sample:


January 11, 1955 Swarthmore, Pennsylvania After some of his dorm mates urinated on his mattress Bob Bechtel, a 20-year-old student at Swarthmore College, returned to his dorm with a shotgun and used it to shoot and kill fellow student Holmes Strozier.

April 17, 1956 New York City, New York 18-year-old Henry Smith, a student at a Bronx vocational high school, is stabbed to death by 16-year-old Randolph Lawrence, a fellow student. The stabbing was reportedly sparked over a dispute about a basketball game.

May 4, 1956 in Prince George's County, Maryland, 15-year-old student Billy Prevatte fatally shot one teacher and injured two others at Maryland Park Junior High School in Prince George's County after he had been reprimanded from the school.

October 20, 1956: New York City, New York A junior high school student was wounded in the forearm yesterday by another student armed with a home-made weapon at Booker T. Washington Junior High School.

October 2, 1957: New York City, New York “A 16-year old student was shot in the leg yesterday by a 15-year old classmate at a city high school.”

March 4, 1958: New York City, New York “A 17-year-old student shot a boy in the Manual Training High School.”

May 1, 1958: Massapequa, New York A 15-year-old high school freshman was shot and killed by a classmate in a washroom of the Massapequa High School.



February 2, 1960 Hartford City, Indiana Principal Leonard Redden shot and killed two teachers with a shotgun at William Reed Elementary School in Hartford City, Indiana, before fleeing into a remote forest, where he committed suicide.

June 7, 1960 Blaine, Minnesota Lester Betts, a 40-year-old mail-carrier, walked into the office of 33-year-old principal Carson Hammond and shot him to death with a 12-gauge shotgun.

April 20, 1961 Chicago, Illinois Teacher Josephine Keane, 45, is sexually assaulted and stabbed to death inside a storeroom at Lewis-Champlin elementary school in Chicago. Lee Arthur Hester, a 14-year-old student, is later convicted of the murder and sentenced to 55 years in prison.

October 17, 1961 Denver, Colorado Tennyson Beard, 14, got into an argument with William Hachmeister, 15, at Morey Junior High School. During the argument Beard pulled out a .38 caliber revolver and shot at Hachmeister, wounding him. A stray bullet also struck Deborah Faith Humphrey, 14, who died from her gunshot wound.

August 1, 1966 University of Texas Massacre Charles Whitman climbs atop the observation deck at the University of Texas-Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31 during a 96-minute shooting rampage.

November 12, 1966 Mesa, Arizona Bob Smith, 18, took seven people hostage at Rose-Mar College of Beauty, a school for training beauticians. Smith ordered the hostages to lie down on the floor in a circle. He then proceeded to shoot them in the head with a 22-caliber pistol. Four women and a three-year-old girl died, one woman and a baby were injured but survived. Police arrested Smith after the massacre. Smith had reportedly admired Richard Speck and Charles Whitman.

That 1966 shooting at University of Texas was really the first mass shooting at a school. Others generally had just one or two victims.

[Anti Federalist]

Did meds cause them to go nuts- or were they already nuts and put on meds for that?

Hard to say, but it is a matter of fact that many commonly prescribed anti-depressants and ADD meds have significant risks of suicidal/homicidal thoughts and actions as side effects.

[Anti Federalist]

Keep in mind that the worst mass school killing incident in the US was almost 100 years ago, and had nothing to do with guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[Anti Federalist]

Keep in mind that the worst mass school killing incident in the US was almost 100 years ago, and had nothing to do with guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[Anti Federalist]

Totally unrelated, but it's always shocking to meet your doppelganger.

Fellow in the green "Freedom is never Free" shirt with dog tags could be my twin brother.

Creepy.


https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/33025902_207477540047327_3379890226863276032_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=0&oh=8ab5fbeeaf1435b2a2c7fb9029e1f44c&oe=5B8CA183

[Swordsmyth]

Totally unrelated, but it's always shocking to meet your doppelganger.

Fellow in the green "Freedom is never Free" shirt with dog tags could be my twin brother.

Creepy.

At least your double wasn't with the Antifa idiots, that would be REALLY creepy.

[Anti Federalist]

Given that these shootings are almost always carried out by young men, to what degree is the stultifying Grundyism and inability to challenge and test themselves as young men in an environment of poisonous misandry found in the government schools to blame?

[Zippyjuan]

In Sight

Dead Kennedys

Who's that kid in the back of the room
Who's that kid in the back of the room
He's setting all his papers on fire
He's setting all his papers on fire

Where did he get that crazy smile
Where did he get that crazy smile
We all think he's really weird
We all think he's really weird

We never talk to him
He never looks quite right
He laughs at us
We just beat him up
What he sees escapes our sight

We never see him with the girls
We never see him with the girls
He's talking to himself again
He's talking to himself again

Why doesn't he want tons of friends
Why doesn't he want tons of friends
Says he's bored when we hang around
Says he's bored when we hang around

We never talk to him
He never looks quite right
He laughs at us
We just beat him up
What he sees escapes our sight

We're all planning our careers
We're all planning our careers
We're all planning our careers
He says we're growing old

Songwriters: Jello Biafra
In Sight lyrics © Kobalt Music Publishing Ltd.

[Anti Federalist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBqhUarhaAU


They're gonna clean up your looks
With all the lies in the books
To make a citizen out of you
Because they sleep with a gun
And keep an eye on you, son
So they can watch all the things you do

Because the drugs never work
They're gonna give you a smirk
'Cause they got methods of keepin' you clean
They gonna rip up your heads
Your aspirations to shreds
Another cog in the murder machine

They said all
Teenagers scare
The living shit out of me
They could care less
As long as someone'll bleed
So darken your clothes
Or strike a violent pose
Maybe they'll leave you alone
But not me

The boys and girls in the clique
The awful names that they stick
You're never gonna fit in much, kid
But if you're troubled and hurt
What you got under your shirt
Will make them pay for the things that they did

They said all
Teenagers scare
The living shit out of me
They could care less
As long as someone'll bleed
So darken your clothes
Or strike a violent pose
Maybe they'll leave you alone
But not me

Oh yeah
They said all
Teenagers scare
The living shit out of me
They could care less
As long as someone'll bleed
So darken your clothes
Or strike a violent pose
Maybe they'll leave you alone
But not me

All together now
Teenagers scare
The living shit out of me
They could care less
As long as someone'll bleed
So darken your clothes
Or strike a violent pose
Maybe they'll leave you alone
But not me

Teenagers scare
The living shit out of me
They could care less
As long as someone'll bleed
So darken your clothes
Or strike a violent pose
Maybe they'll leave you alone
But not me

[pcosmar]

I can't disagree with that. Some just want to be recognized or famous so they copy other shooters who got attention.


Here is a sample:






That 1966 shooting at University of Texas was really the first mass shooting at a school. Others generally had just one or two victims.

University of Texas,, First test case?.(one that got away?). Pre-SSRI drug trials.. SSRIs were purpose developed for Mkultra program.

University of Texas was a research facility. Shooter a subject.

and that has been repeated. It is repeatable science.

Do your research.. Mind Control was only one aspect of the Mad Scientists Plans. And Drugs were KEY.

http://all.net/journal/deception/MKULTRA/www.nemasys.com/rahome/library/programming/mkultra.shtml

[Suzanimal]

RYAN MCMAKEN ON THE INGRAHAM ANGLE

Ryan McMaken joined Laura Ingraham and Chris Hahn last night to discuss whether America is really facing an "epidemic" of school shootings. As Ryan notes, studies indicate that the stats show otherwise, and picks apart some of the most widely used claims made by opponents of gun rights.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=110&v=Lj-5U7eo9co

https://mises.org/power-market/ryan-mcmaken-ingraham-angle

[shakey1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-S6md3LNgs

[pcosmar]

Zippyjuan

When did Mk ultra end Officially?

do you have any proof that it ended?

Does a Mockingbird tell you different?

[Raginfridus]

You know how this works, Pete. Officially, I'm not aware it ended, but if it has ended, these programs shuffle around under different names.

[pcosmar]

You know how this works, Pete. Officially, I'm not aware it ended, but if it has ended, these programs shuffle around under different names.

Most pretend that this reality does not exist..

An official end,,even alleged,, is admission of existence..

Once you can get people to understand the reality of it's existence,,, it is open to investigation..

[The Gold Standard]

Did that work in this case?

Did what work? Having two overweight rent-a-cops guarding a building of hundreds of defenseless people? I can see how that would have put the fear of God into the shooter.

[Madison320]

Sen. Rand Paul: Let's arm teachers
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/17/rand-paul-lets-arm-teachers/1843003/

I don't like the idea of a politician deciding how best to make schools safer. Let the parents decide by getting rid of government schools.

[The Gold Standard]

The ideal solution would be to ban public schools and all gun restrictions on school zones. Private schools that are armed to the teeth and responsible for the safety of their customers would make sure this shit doesn't go on.

[Madison320]

The ideal solution would be to ban public schools and all gun restrictions on school zones. Private schools that are armed to the teeth and responsible for the safety of their customers would make sure this $#@! doesn't go on.

Plus I'd remove any requirements that force attendance. Forcing kids that don't want to be there, or don't belong there screws it up for everyone else.

[dannno]

I don't like the idea of a politician deciding how best to make schools safer. Let the parents decide by getting rid of government schools.

What the hell are you talking about?? Giving teachers the right to carry a weapon for self defense = politician deciding how to best make schools safer?? No, this is putting it in the hands of individuals, not politicians..

But ya, I get your point, a private school could make the determination to not allow guns - but as long as we have public schools, teachers should be allowed to carry a weapon for self defense..

This is sort of like the "I don't like immigration controls, let's just get rid of welfare"

The problem is that immigration controls can and will happen, getting rid of welfare is not anywhere in the realm of a possibility right now.. So in the mean time, we will have millions and millions more people coming for big government welfare benefits.. they also vote Democrat at nearly 2:1 ratio as the rest of the population.

So because some are unwilling to put in immigration controls and are hoping to get rid of welfare as a better alternative, some day, you find that the social safety net ends up getting bigger and bigger because you just imported a bunch of Democrat big government socialist voters and your hopes and dreams of getting rid of welfare become completely shattered.

[dannno]

Plus I'd remove any requirements that force attendance. Forcing kids that don't want to be there, or don't belong there screws it up for everyone else.

Attendance would be a contractual obligation in private schools.

[axiomata]

I'm with former Obama Ed Sec Arne Duncan. Boycott public schools (and the taxes that pay for them)

[Madison320]

What the hell are you talking about?? Giving teachers the right to carry a weapon for self defense = politician deciding how to best make schools safer?? No, this is putting it in the hands of individuals, not politicians..

But ya, I get your point, a private school could make the determination to not allow guns - but as long as we have public schools, teachers should be allowed to carry a weapon for self defense..

This is sort of like the "I don't like immigration controls, let's just get rid of welfare"

The problem is that immigration controls can and will happen, getting rid of welfare is not anywhere in the realm of a possibility right now.. So in the mean time, we will have millions and millions more people coming for big government welfare benefits.. they also vote Democrat at nearly 2:1 ratio as the rest of the population.

So because some are unwilling to put in immigration controls and are hoping to get rid of welfare as a better alternative, some day, you find that the social safety net ends up getting bigger and bigger because you just imported a bunch of Democrat big government socialist voters and your hopes and dreams of getting rid of welfare become completely shattered.

I understand your point but the problem I have is that not you nor anyone else is even MENTIONING school choice in this debate. Everyone just skips the free market solution and goes right to the forced government solution.

[Madison320]

I'm with former Obama Ed Sec Arne Duncan. Boycott public schools (and the taxes that pay for them)

Somehow I'm guessing he's not to crazy about the tax part. :)

[axiomata]

Somehow I'm guessing he's not to crazy about the tax part. :)

Ya, not to mention he wants to boycott until the 2nd amendment is effectively abolished.

But still, he's right on the boycott public schools part.

I'm already doing my part. Small private classical christian school for my kids.

[dannno]

I understand your point but the problem I have is that not you nor anyone else is even MENTIONING school choice in this debate. Everyone just skips the free market solution and goes right to the forced government solution.

Nobody is promoting a forced government solution, even Trump is saying that teachers should be able to get training and arm themselves if they choose. That is not a forced government solution, that is getting rid of regulations to allow people to make their own decisions.

I am seeing some political cartoons of Trump promoting security checkpoints in schools, but afaik that is not based on any sort of reality.

[Madison320]

Ya, not to mention he wants to boycott until the 2nd amendment is effectively abolished.

But still, he's right on the boycott public schools part.

I'm already doing my part. Small private classical christian school for my kids.

Trying to stop school shootings by abolishing guns is like trying to stop termites from eating your house by eradicating the entire world population of termites.

[dannno]

Trying to stop school shootings by abolishing guns is like trying to stop termites from eating your house by eradicating the entire world population of termites.

I would say trying to stop school shootings by abolishing guns is like trying to stop termites from eating your house by trying to eradicate termite poison.

[Madison320]

Nobody is promoting a forced government solution, even Trump is saying that teachers should be able to get training and arm themselves if they choose. That is not a forced government solution, that is getting rid of regulations to allow people to make their own decisions.


Suppose the local school board decides the best way to make its school safer is not to arm teachers. Should the federal government override that decision and force the school to allow armed teachers?

By the way there's a lot more support for school choice that 1 or 2%.

"New Survey: Nearly Two-Thirds of Americans Support School Choice"


https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/school-choice-poll-two-thirds-americans-support-education-reform/

[Swordsmyth]

Suppose the local school board decides the best way to make its school safer is not to arm teachers. Should the federal government override that decision and force the school to allow armed teachers?

Ask the 2nd Amendment.

[Madison320]

Ask the 2nd Amendment.

I don't understand.

[dannno]

I don't understand.

Can states break the 4th amendment and seize your property without due process? Can they curtail your free speech?

[Swordsmyth]

I don't understand.

A government school has no right to infringe on a teacher's right to keep and bear arms.

[Madison320]

A government school has no right to infringe on a teacher's right to keep and bear arms.

Yeah, at home. Not at a public school.

Besides that I'm not too crazy about the amendment that makes the bill of rights extend to the states.

[dannno]

Yeah, at home. Not at a public school.

Besides that I'm not too crazy about the amendment that makes the bill of rights extend to the states.

So you think states should be able to search and seize your property or convict you of a crime without due process?

[Madison320]

Can states break the 4th amendment and seize your property without due process? Can they curtail your free speech?

First of all I don't like the fact that the bill of rights extends to the states. The last entity I want protecting my rights is a massive federal government. Second the right to bear arms is on your private property. When it comes to public property it gets complicated.

[Madison320]

So you think states should be able to search and seize your property or convict you of a crime without due process?

No, but I think it should be up to the states to make that decision. Don't you?

[Swordsmyth]

Yeah, at home. Not at a public school.
Anywhere.


Besides that I'm not too crazy about the amendment that makes the bill of rights extend to the states.
You think states should be able to violate people's fundamental rights?

[Swordsmyth]

First of all I don't like the fact that the bill of rights extends to the states. The last entity I want protecting my rights is a massive federal government.
The federal government doesn't have to be massive to protect your rights.


Second the right to bear arms is on your private property. When it comes to public property it gets complicated.
What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

[Swordsmyth]

No, but I think it should be up to the states to make that decision. Don't you?

Not if they want to be members of the union.

[Madison320]

Anywhere.


A courthouse? Your house?




You think states should be able to violate people's fundamental rights?

No, but I don't want the Federal Government enforcing it. Don't tell me you've never heard of this concept.

[Swordsmyth]

A courthouse?
Yes.

Your house?
My house is private property, I could ban guns from my house, the government can't ban guns from my house.






No, but I don't want the Federal Government enforcing it. Don't tell me you've never heard of this concept.
One of the few legitimate purposes of the federal government is to enforce your rights, if a state doesn't like it they should leave the union.

[Madison320]

Not if they want to be members of the union.

Yeah, it sounds good in theory to have the Federal government protecting my rights, but there's a slight downside to that. In their eternal quest to "protect my rights" they've implemented the FDA, ADA, SS, Medicare, DEA, Dept of Education, etc, etc. Plus the income tax to help pay for all that "right protection". No thanks. I'd rather let the states decide then I can move to the state I like best.

[Swordsmyth]

Besides that I'm not too crazy about the amendment that makes the bill of rights extend to the states.

The 2ndA always applied to the states, it doesn't say "congress shall make no law" it just says "shall not be infringed".

[Swordsmyth]

Yeah, it sounds good in theory to have the Federal government protecting my rights, but there's a slight downside to that. In their eternal quest to "protect my rights" they've implemented the FDA, ADA, SS, Medicare, DEA, Dept of Education, etc, etc. Plus the income tax to help pay for all that "right protection". No thanks. I'd rather let the states decide then I can move to the state I like best.

Those things were not protections of your rights.

[Madison320]

Those things were not protections of your rights.

Not according to the Feds. Hence the problem. I'm a states rights guy.

[Madison320]

Not if they want to be members of the union.

So it's optional now? :)

[Swordsmyth]

Not according to the Feds. Hence the problem. I'm a states rights guy.
Were those things in the bill of rights? NO
Were they in the enumerated powers? NO

[dannno]

So it's optional now? :)

That's how it was supposed to be..

I'm slightly torn on the whole bill of rights, states rights thing, but if states could leave more easily I think it would be an easier decision.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint you have every right to do what it takes to reverse that.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint your family or friends have every right to do what it takes to reverse that.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint the federal govt. has a right to reverse that - but do we want to create this federal govt. that has the power over states and the states cannot make the choice to leave? That doesn't sound too good, especially since with all that power they end up just violating our rights.

[Swordsmyth]

So it's optional now? :)

That's how it was supposed to be..

I'm slightly torn on the whole bill of rights, states rights thing, but if states could leave more easily I think it would be an easier decision.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint you have every right to do what it takes to reverse that.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint your family or friends have every right to do what it takes to reverse that.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint the federal govt. has a right to reverse that - but do we want to create this federal govt. that has the power over states and the states cannot make the choice to leave? I dunno..



It should be, if a state won't recognize the rights in the BoR one option for dealing with them should be to eject them from the union.
Two wrongs don't make a right, letting members of the union violate their citizens' fundamental rights isn't the solution to Lincoln creating the "indivisible" union, allowing secession is.
CALExit.

[Madison320]

Were those things in the bill of rights? NO
Were they in the enumerated powers? NO

It's irrelevant since the federal government gets to decide. For example the Fed has decided that the handicapped have the "right" to a wheelchair ramp to any private place of business.

[Madison320]

It should be, if a state won't recognize the rights in the BoR one option for dealing with them should be to eject them from the union.
Two wrongs don't make a right, letting members of the union violate their citizens' fundamental rights isn't the solution to Lincoln creating the "indivisible" union, allowing secession is.
CALExit.

Allowing the federal government final say in how to "protect" your rights is the equivalent of letting the fed decide if a state can secede.

The federal government should be protecting the states (defense mainly) and the states should be protecting individual rights.

[Swordsmyth]

It's irrelevant since the federal government gets to decide. For example the Fed has decided that the handicapped have the "right" to a wheelchair ramp to any private place of business.
Then you must either reign in the federal government or eliminate it, if you can't keep it limited to its enumerated powers and the BoR then you won't be able to keep it from doing anything.
You will have the same problem with your state government, you either believe limited government is possible or you join the anarchists. (Of course the anarchists will end up with despotism filling the vacuum they create but that is another issue.)

[dannno]

It's irrelevant since the federal government gets to decide. For example the Fed has decided that the handicapped have the "right" to a wheelchair ramp to any private place of business.

Do handicapped people have the right to steal from others? No.. Leftists have distorted what the word "rights" means. They think it has positive claims (right to healthcare) as opposed to negative rights (the state shall not infringe, people shall not infringe on your property, etc)

Some argue that maybe we should just ditch it all for that reason.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQYRM6jAvnI

[Madison320]

That's how it was supposed to be..

I'm slightly torn on the whole bill of rights, states rights thing, but if states could leave more easily I think it would be an easier decision.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint you have every right to do what it takes to reverse that.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint your family or friends have every right to do what it takes to reverse that.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint the federal govt. has a right to reverse that - but do we want to create this federal govt. that has the power over states and the states cannot make the choice to leave? That doesn't sound too good, especially since with all that power they end up just violating our rights.

I think the results speak for themselves. I think the 14th amendment giving the fed power over the states to "protect" our rights has been a huge failure.

[Swordsmyth]

Allowing the federal government final say in how to "protect" your rights is the equivalent of letting the fed decide if a state can secede.
No it isn't, club members must follow club rules, I don't want N. Korea as a member of the union, they don't get to benefit from the union or infect it with their citizens.


The federal government should be protecting the states (defense mainly) and the states should be protecting individual rights.
And the federal government should be enforcing the rights of its citizens or expelling states that don't like it.

[phill4paul]

That's how it was supposed to be..

I'm slightly torn on the whole bill of rights, states rights thing, but if states could leave more easily I think it would be an easier decision.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint you have every right to do what it takes to reverse that.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint your family or friends have every right to do what it takes to reverse that.

I think if your local government violates your rights then from a moral standpoint the federal govt. has a right to reverse that - but do we want to create this federal govt. that has the power over states and the states cannot make the choice to leave? That doesn't sound too good, especially since with all that power they end up just violating our rights.

And such is what the CONstitution has wrought. The Articles of Confederation were just fine. There was no need to "tweak" it. There was no president (executive branch), there was no judiciary (clowns in gowns re-interpreting how they personally chose,) and no powers of taxation. Sounds like a great "Federal Government" to me.

[Swordsmyth]

I think the results speak for themselves. I think the 14th amendment giving the fed power over the states to "protect" our rights has been a huge failure.

The 14th had very little to do with it, the feds took illegitimate power under many different excuses and they would have without the 14th.

[Madison320]

Then you must either reign in the federal government or eliminate it, if you can't keep it limited to its enumerated powers and the BoR then you won't be able to keep it from doing anything.
You will have the same problem with your state government, you either believe limited government is possible or you join the anarchists. (Of course the anarchists will end up with despotism filling the vacuum they create but that is another issue.)

I believe there's optimal levels at which government decisions should be made. I think the federal government is too high up, and covers too much territory to be making decisions on individual rights. Plus if you don't like the fed's decision you can't easily move. The original idea of the united states was for the laws to be decided by the individual states and allow citizens to move around to states they like.

[Swordsmyth]

And such is what the CONstitution has wrought. The Articles of Confederation were just fine. There was no need to "tweak" it. There was no president (executive branch), there was no judiciary (clowns in gowns re-interpreting how they personally chose,) and no powers of taxation. Sounds like a great "Federal Government" to me.
Something inbetween was required, under the AoC we would have turned into a collection of states that randomly violated their citizens fundamental rights and eventually split up and decayed, there would have been little difference between us and Europe.

[Madison320]

The 14th had very little to do with it, the feds took illegitimate power under many different excuses and they would have without the 14th.

But when is their power legitimate and when is it illegitimate? And who decides?

[Swordsmyth]

I believe there's optimal levels at which government decisions should be made. I think the federal government is to high up, and covers too much territory to be making decisions in individual rights. Plus if you don't like the fed's decision you can't easily move. The original idea of the united states was for the laws to be decided by the individual states and allow citizens to move around to states they like.
The Constitution itself forbade the states from violating certain rights:
A1S10
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

Either government can be limited or it can't, the feds should be limited to protecting your basic rights and any states that don't like it should leave or be expelled.

[Swordsmyth]

But when is their power legitimate and when is it illegitimate? And who decides?

That is what the enumerated powers define, if you think they should be reduced or expanded then you need an amendment.

[Madison320]

The Constitution itself forbade the states from violating certain rights:
A1S10
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

Either government can be limited or it can't, the feds should be limited to protecting your basic rights and any states that don't like it should leave or be expelled.

I think the underlined part was a mistake, the camel's nose under the tent. I think a cleaner, more sustainable solution was for the fed not to be involved in individual rights. Remember, once you give the Fed a particular power you need to take the good with the bad.

[Swordsmyth]

I think the underlined part was a mistake, the camel's nose under the tent. I think a cleaner, more sustainable solution was for the fed not to be involved in individual rights. Remember, once you give the Fed a particular power you need to take the good with the bad.
I don't want a union with states that don't recognize fundamental rights, it won't end well.

[The Gold Standard]

Trying to stop school shootings by abolishing guns is like trying to stop termites from eating your house by eradicating the entire world population of termites.

It's stopping termite damage by abolishing wood.

[The Gold Standard]

Those things were not protections of your rights.

What rights? Your rights are what they tell you they are.