U.S. Senate Bails Out Dairy Industry With $1 Billion of Taxpayer Money

[lilymc]

Earlier this week, the United States Senate signed a budget agreement to hand over $1 billion of taxpayer money to the dying dairy industry.

Supporters of the agreement say the money will be used for programs to help the industry recover from falling dairy prices. A major cause of this slump is the consumer shift away from dairy and toward healthier, more responsible alternatives.

According to a 2013 USDA report, dairy consumption has been on the decline for decades, with each generation consuming less milk than the one before. In fact, dairy consumption has fallen a whopping 40 percent since 1970.

Sadly, the budget agreement isn’t the first time U.S. taxpayers have been forced to bail out the dairy industry. In 2016, after a group of legislators urged the USDA to help dairy farmers, the department bought 11 million pounds of cheese—20 million dollars’ worth—to reduce surplus inventories.

Why does the U.S. government keep bailing out the dairy industry? The answer is simple: It has a vested interest. You’ve probably never heard of Dairy Management Incorporated, but this devious government-sponsored marketing group’s sole mission is to push consumption of dairy products in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Read more... http://www.mercyforanimals.org/us-senate-bails-out-dairy-industry-with-1

[nikcers]

Get yo damn hands off my gubmint cheese.

[timosman]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-K8I8VZ0MRQg/UCuk0r7zznI/AAAAAAAARnM/AwSJG38hsA8/s1600/got-milk-dark-knight-joker-600x318.jpg

[CaptUSA]

https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/d_placeholder_euli9k/dpr_2.0/c_limit,w_585/fl_lossy,q_auto/v1/galleries/2013/10/29/got-milk-turns-20-best-ads-from-the-iconic-campaign-photos/got-milk-powers_kuaa9b

[asurfaholic]

I guess a crack addict could also be helped by being provided more crack.

With such gradual and steady decline, the dairy industry should be making adjustments and not making too much cheese...

[RonZeplin]

http://www.enbiotix.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/AGRI-e1466521651675.png
Cotton and Dairy Ride on Senate Budget Package (https://www.agriculture.com/news/business/cotton-and-dairy-ride-on-senate-budget-package)

2/8/2018

The budget agreement written by Senate leaders includes more than $1 billion for dairy supports as well as larger subsidies for cotton growers, who have pursued aid that could cost as much as the dairy enhancements. Besides providing immediate assistance to producers, the provisions would mean, under arcane score-keeping rules, that farm-state lawmakers can spend more money on cotton and dairy in the 2018 farm bill than is available now.

Michigan Senator Debbie Stabenow (https://www.agriculture.senate.gov/newsroom/dem/press/release/stabenow-echoes-bipartisan-call-to-confirm-northey), the senior Democrat on the Senate Agriculture Committee, announced that the budget package “contains significant improvements for both commodities — including more than $1 billion for our struggling dairy farmers.” Cotton and dairy producers say the insurance-like supports created in the 2014 farm law have been woefully inadequate.

When the USDA gave dairy farmers the chance last fall to drop out of the so-called Margin Protection Program (MPP), enrollment dropped by 75%. The cotton subsidy, called STAX, has attracted relatively few growers and “due to lower cotton prices, it has provided lower revenue than producers expected at the time of the bill’s passage,” said Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue this week.

Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (https://www.schumer.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/-schumer-delivers-major-victories-for-new-york-state-senator-successfully-negotiated-bipartisan-budget-deal-that-will-inject-new-federal-investment-opportunities-throughout-the-state) said the dairy provision in the budget agreement will “fix problems with the old MPP and provide a pathway to new, customizable insurance tools in the future.”

In a release, Schumer said the dairy proposal would “invest over $1 billion into the dairy safety net for family dairy farmers” with steps that reduce premiums by up to 80% for small- and medium-size operators; waive fees for beginning, veteran, and underserved farmers; “make the program more responsive to drops in prices and increases in feed costs, and trigger payments more quickly; and allow farmers to enroll for 2018 coverage or change their coverage level.” The provision would also remove a $20 million limit on USDA spending on livestock insurance policies, “allowing for the creation of customizable dairy risk-management tools.”

The 2014 law created STAX, a revenue insurance program with a guaranteed minimum price for the fiber, to resolve a World Trade Organization ruling against the longtime U.S. cotton program. Growers have suggested various ways to make their crop eligible for the same subsidies available to grain and soybean farmers, such as declaring that cottonseed is a vegetable oil crop or creating a support for “seed cotton” — unginned cotton with lint still attached to the seed. The American Enterprise Institute, a free-market think tank, says the plans could cost from $630 million to as much as $1.5 billion (https://thefern.org/ag_insider/new-cotton-subsidies-2018-farm-bill-costly-says-think-tank/) a year.

The budget accord would allow hundreds of billions of dollars in military and domestic spending over the next two years, said the New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/us/politics/budget-deal-trump.html). The package “would effectively negate” President Trump’s proposals for major increases in military spending on one hand and sweeping cuts to domestic programs on the other. The White House is scheduled to release its fiscal 2019 budget proposal on Monday, “but the deal — championed by the top congressional leaders from his own party — amounts to an unequivocal rebuke of many of the budgetary demands he has put forth,” said the Times. The Senate was to vote on the bill on Thursday, with the House to follow.

[Anti Federalist]

Supporters of the agreement say the money will be used for programs to help the industry recover from falling dairy prices. A major cause of this slump is the consumer shift away from dairy and toward healthier, more responsible alternatives.

According to a 2013 USDA report, dairy consumption has been on the decline for decades, with each generation consuming less milk than the one before. In fact, dairy consumption has fallen a whopping 40 percent since 1970.

LOL...they stopped drinking milk and started drinking HFCS laden sodas, juices and sweetened water.

The results?

http://www.gdrp.me/research/graphics/chart1-small.png

http://cdn1.theodysseyonline.com/files/2015/11/20/6358359882436216361965175721_obese.gif

http://www.crainscleveland.com/sites/default/files/images/1556881/opiod2.png

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of a billion in subsidies, nor am I in favor of telling anybody what they can and can not eat or drink.

But please don't wrap animal "rights" propaganda up in a nice neat "anti tax anti spending" wrapper and expect me to smoke it.

[Origanalist]

LOL...they stopped drinking milk and started drinking HFCS laden sodas, juices and sweetened water.

The results?

http://www.gdrp.me/research/graphics/chart1-small.png

http://cdn1.theodysseyonline.com/files/2015/11/20/6358359882436216361965175721_obese.gif

http://www.crainscleveland.com/sites/default/files/images/1556881/opiod2.png

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of a billion in subsidies, nor am I in favor of telling anybody what they can and can not eat or drink.

But please don't wrap animal "rights" propaganda up in a nice neat "anti tax anti spending" wrapper and expect me to smoke it.

Milk, butter and cheese. Yum. Take away the subsidies please, I'll still buy it.

[Swordsmyth]

Milk, butter and cheese. Yum. Take away the subsidies please, I'll still buy it.

Isaiah 7:15 “Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.”

King James Version (KJV)


Isaiah 7:22 “And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.”

King James Version (KJV)


Jeremiah 11:5 “That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O LORD.”

King James Version (KJV)

[Origanalist]

Isaiah 7:15 “Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.”

King James Version (KJV)


Isaiah 7:22 “And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.”

King James Version (KJV)


Jeremiah 11:5 “That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O LORD.”

King James Version (KJV)

Honey is pretty darn good too, too bad we have to subjugate the poor bees to get it.

[lilymc]

LOL...they stopped drinking milk and started drinking HFCS laden sodas, juices and sweetened water.

The results?

http://www.gdrp.me/research/graphics/chart1-small.png


Actually, typically people who stop drinking cow's milk replace it with a nondairy milk… such as almond milk or numerous other non-dairy plant-based milks. They taste good, they're nutritious, you don't have to worry about lactose intolerance, and best of all, you no longer have to participate in tearing a baby away from his mother, which causes distress to both the mother and the baby, in order to steal his milk.



Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of a billion in subsidies, nor am I in favor of telling anybody what they can and can not eat or drink.

But please don't wrap animal "rights" propaganda up in a nice neat "anti tax anti spending" wrapper and expect me to smoke it.

If you think there is something in this article that is false, then point it out and refute it. I'm just exposing that this industry is in bed with the government, the same government who created the now debunked food pyramid.

[Swordsmyth]

Actually, typically people who stop drinking cow's milk replace it with a nondairy milk… such as almond milk or numerous other non-dairy plant-based milks. They taste good, they're nutritious, you don't have to worry about lactose intolerance, and best of all, you no longer have to participate in tearing a baby away from his mother, which causes distress to both the mother and the baby, in order to steal his milk.



If you think there is something in this article that is false, then point it out and refute it. I'm just exposing that this industry is in bed with the government, the same government who created the now debunked food pyramid.

Too often they replace it with Soy "milk" which is terribly unhealthy.

[dannno]

you no longer have to participate in tearing a baby away from his mother, which causes distress to both the mother and the baby, in order to steal his milk.

I don't think you understand quite how this works... :D












jk

[Ender]

Read more... http://www.mercyforanimals.org/us-senate-bails-out-dairy-industry-with-1

Natural milk is good for you & farmer/ranchers usually take good care of their animals.

The problem is gov running the food market and making things like raw milk illegal. Get the gov out of everything and watch the industry, as well as consumers, get healthy

[donnay]

U.S. Government shouldn't be bailing out any industry. Get government out of the dairy industry, and let people drink raw, pasteurized, homogenized or Organic.

These bailouts are nothing more than graft.

[Raginfridus]

Honey is pretty darn good too, too bad we have to subjugate the poor bees to get it.Bees are the best. If there was one north american animal I would protect, it would be the honey bees.

[TheCount]

I hope that the commerce department will be recommending export tariffs on American dairy products in order to prevent their export at unfair prices.

[nikcers]

Bees are the best. If there was one north american animal I would protect, it would be the honey bees.
Why don't you put your honey where your mouth is and start faming honey?

[nikcers]

I hope that the commerce department will be recommending export tariffs on American dairy products in order to prevent their export at unfair prices.
Pretty soon foreign governments will stop taking our government cheese if we keep subsidizing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oxfbbzC3PM

[Jamesiv1]

Why don't you put your honey where your mouth is and start faming honey?
Because nothing ruins a thing's worth and good character like fame.

[TheCount]

Pretty soon foreign governments will stop taking our government cheese if we keep subsidizing it.Don't worry, our economy will be way better after there's no trade.



That's how things work, right?

[lilymc]

I don't think you understand quite how this works... :D


jk

Ha ha… I was talking about the baby. Did you think I was talking about the mama?

[Anti Federalist]

If you think there is something in this article that is false, then point it out and refute it. I'm just exposing that this industry is in bed with the government, the same government who created the now debunked food pyramid.


from dairy and toward healthier, more responsible alternatives.

All food products carry some risk.

That said, I do not think dairy products are unhealthy, I find that to be a false statement.

I think the "alternatives" may have greater health risks, which I backed up with charts showing declining life spans and increased obesity and diabetes as simple, wholesome dairy, meats and cheeses are replaced by frankenfoods, "macroorganics" and other heavily processed "alternatives" to these simple, safe and tasty food choices that have been feeding mankind for 50,000 years.

And what, exactly does "responsible" mean?

If not outright false, it is very ambiguous and shadowy in meaning.

[lilymc]

Natural milk is good for you & farmer/ranchers usually take good care of their animals.

The problem is gov running the food market and making things like raw milk illegal. Get the gov out of everything and watch the industry, as well as consumers, get healthy

That's what we've always been told, but studies have shown that dairy is linked to an increased risk of certain type of cancer. Plus you've got pus cells in milk, and in some cases, parasites.

Also, even on the small, so called "humane" farms, the baby cows are still torn away from their mother… Usually at one day old. That is standard practice. And it's a cruel practice. Why be a part of causing suffering when you don't have to?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAJH8cQ7pIg

(This next one is not a dairy farm, but it still shows how protective mothers are of their babies)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0_R6LAAzDc

[Anti Federalist]

Again, I am not in favor of these subsidies.

But if you want to attack a worthless government agriculture subsidy, attack the energy sinkhole that is ethanol and corn.

Because of corn and ethanol subsidies, we now have gasoline that is less efficient, billions in increased food costs, millions in damages to engines and fuel systems, and, under NAFTA, the utter destruction of the small shareholder Mexican corn farmer, which has led to the collapse of the Mexican state and a narco-state in it's place, and the immigration crisis that turned our nation upside down, just to name a few things.

All to create ethanol to put in gasoline that is a net energy loss.

Yes, it takes more energy to grow, transport, distill, blend, and transport again, a gallon of ethanol, that what that unit of fuel produces when burned in an internal combustion engine..

[Raginfridus]

Why don't you put your honey where your mouth is and start faming honey?

I will when I retire. My grandpa kept bees.

[lilymc]

All food products carry some risk.

That said, I do not think dairy products are unhealthy, I find that to be a false statement.

I think the "alternatives" may have greater health risks, which I backed up with charts showing declining life spans and increased obesity and diabetes as simple, wholesome dairy, meats and cheeses are replaced by frankenfoods, "macroorganics" and other heavily processed "alternatives" to these simple, safe and tasty food choices that have been feeding mankind for 50,000 years.

And what, exactly does "responsible" mean?

If not outright false, it is very ambiguous and shadowy in meaning.

You were comparing milk to soda or sweet drinks… My point was that that's a terrible comparison, because people who ditch dairy typically go to almond milk, cashew milk, rice milk, soy milk, oat milk or other non-dairy plant-based milks… Not soda or juice.

As for their use of the word responsible, I'd have to go check out the article to see the context. But most likely they were talking about how the animal industries are horrible in numerous ways, for example the tons of water and food it takes to feed livestock, the astronomical amount of waste (yes, actual shit) that ends up polluting lakes and causing all sorts of other problems, the disease, the chemicals used to treat the diseases, etc. etc.

[milgram]

Who needs dairy when there's soy (https://soyboy.site/)?

https://i.imgur.com/b37ZlTE.jpg (https://soyboy.site/)

[Origanalist]

Who needs dairy when there's soy (https://soyboy.site/)?

https://i.imgur.com/b37ZlTE.jpg (https://soyboy.site/)

That is frikkin awesome.

[Origanalist]

That's what we've always been told, but studies have shown that dairy is linked to an increased risk of certain type of cancer. Plus you've got pus cells in milk, and in some cases, parasites.

Also, even on the small, so called "humane" farms, the baby cows are still torn away from their mother… Usually at one day old. That is standard practice. And it's a cruel practice. Why be a part of causing suffering when you don't have to?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAJH8cQ7pIg

(This next one is not a dairy farm, but it still shows how protective mothers are of their babies)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0_R6LAAzDc

"Studies have shown" :rolleyes:

[Anti Federalist]

As for their use of the word responsible, I'd have to go check out the article to see the context. But most likely they were talking about how the animal industries are horrible in numerous ways, for example the tons of water and food it takes to feed livestock, the astronomical amount of waste (yes, actual shit) that ends up polluting lakes and causing all sorts of other problems, the disease, the chemicals used to treat the diseases, etc. etc.

Modern agriculture is equally as harmful as keeping livestock: cancer causing glyphosate, petroleum based fertilizers, DNA warping GMO franenplants, fertilizer run off causing fish kills and algae blooms, soil depletion, pesticides and so on.

One is no more "responsible" than the other.

I reject the term out of hand, it's a SJW term designed to shame you into doing what they want, as if my desire to own a computer is somehow "responsible" for kids climbing over shitheaps of toxic computer waste in Ghana to scavenge shreds of copper and gold from waste electronics.

My "responsibility" goes only so far as to pay the producer the agreed upon price for any commodity, item, goods or service.

Beyond that, if I do not want to do business with a producer for whatever reason, that is my choice.

But it is not my responsibility.

[lilymc]

Modern agriculture is equally as harmful as keeping livestock: cancer causing glyphosate, petroleum based fertilizers, DNA warping GMO franenplants, fertilizer run off causing fish kills and algae blooms, soil depletion, pesticides and so on.

One is no more "responsible" than the other.

I reject the term out of hand, it's a SJW term designed to shame you into doing what they want, as if my desire to own a computer is somehow "responsible" for kids climbing over $#@!heaps of toxic computer waste in Ghana to scavenge shreds of copper and gold from waste electronics.

My "responsibility" goes only so far as to pay the producer the agreed upon price for any commodity, item, goods or service.

Beyond that, if I do not want to do business with a producer for whatever reason, that is my choice.

But it is not my responsibility.

I hope you're not assuming that just because someone is against the animal industries that automatically means they are for "modern agriculture." Vegans who care about the environment are always looking for sustainable ways of doing things, that cause the least harm to this world. Many of them support buying locally from small farms… or growing their own food. But the fact of the matter is that the animal industries are the worst, on a number of levels.

And you don't have to be so defensive. Of course it's your choice to do business with who you want. But that doesn't mean that others don't have the right to speak out and bring awareness to these cruel, selfish industries. While we are free to choose our actions, we are not always free to choose the consequences.

[oyarde]

Too often they replace it with Soy "milk" which is terribly unhealthy.

Ya , what the hell is Soy milk ? I have cut a lot of weeds by hand out of bean fields and I have never seen titties on a soy bean plant .

[Anti Federalist]

I hope you're not assuming that just because someone is against the animal industries that automatically means they are for "modern agriculture." Vegans who care about the environment are always looking for sustainable ways of doing things, that cause the least harm to this world. Many of them support buying locally from small farms… or growing their own food. But the fact of the matter is that the animal industries are the worst, on a number of levels.

And you don't have to be so defensive. Of course it's your choice to do business with who you want. But that doesn't mean that others don't have the right to speak out and bring awareness to these cruel, selfish industries. While we are free to choose our actions, we are not always free to choose the consequences.

I'm having a conversation, nothing defensive about it.

[Anti Federalist]

I made this for the crew once, this exact recipe.

I got a round of applause.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ZzJiW2WqM

[lilymc]

I made this for the crew once, this exact recipe.

I got a round of applause.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ZzJiW2WqM

http://www.livemercifully.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/puke.gif

[Origanalist]

Ya , what the hell is Soy milk ? I have cut a lot of weeds by hand out of bean fields and I have never seen titties on a soy bean plant .

One of my daughters couldn't consume cow goodness, so I had to feed her soy milk, made it myself. Too strapped to buy the store stuff back then. Poor kid.

[otherone]

Bees are the best. If there was one north american animal I would protect, it would be the honey bees.

Liger, bro.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/96/60/c3/9660c3fa201790a9275237f975b49f25.jpg

[otherone]

I made this for the crew once, this exact recipe.

I got a round of applause.



RECIPE? Well oo-la-la Mr. French man.

h0m0

[Raginfridus]

Liger, bro.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/96/60/c3/9660c3fa201790a9275237f975b49f25.jpgWhat do Ligers secrete?

[Ender]

That's what we've always been told, but studies have shown that dairy is linked to an increased risk of certain type of cancer. Plus you've got pus cells in milk, and in some cases, parasites.

Also, even on the small, so called "humane" farms, the baby cows are still torn away from their mother… Usually at one day old. That is standard practice. And it's a cruel practice. Why be a part of causing suffering when you don't have to?


Milk Myths Debunked: Dairy is Scary – or Not?
February 8th, 2016

By: Julaine Treur

Over the past few months, a new video about the dairy industry has been floating around the internet. Titled “Dairy is F*ing Scary” it purports to show that dairy farming is cruel and inhumane. Erin Janus glibly rattles off dozens of myths about and misrepresentations of the dairy industry, while horrific images flash over the screen. I’ve watched the video numerous times, all the while shaking my head at the blatant lies gleefully rattling off this woman’s tongue. At the request of one of my blog readers, I’d like to try to address the claims Ms. Janus makes.


-Calves are stolen from their mothers so that humans can drink the milk meant for the calf, and the mother cries for days in search of her baby.Calves are left with their mothers for a period of time after birth.

This amount of time varies, and it depends on how well the mother cares for her calf. The truth is, many dairy cows don’t have much of a mothering instinct. Sad as it may sound, farmers can often do a better job taking care of a calf than a dairy cow can! I’ve seen cows neglect or ignore their calf, and we’ve even had some cows attack their calves! After some time has passed (usually between 24 and 48 hours on our farm) the calf is moved to the nursery where he/she is provided plenty of milk/colostrum from the mother cow; fresh, clean, soft bedding, and lots of love and attention from our family. Because of the high level of trust between us and the mother cow, which is generated by the level of care she has received her entire life on our farm, she does NOT cry for her calf, instead, she’ll usually continue eating or laying down when we move her calf. Neither does the calf cry for her mother, she’s perfectly content in her new surroundings. On our farm, and on all of the many farms I’ve visited, calves are fed their mother’s first milk via bottle and then milk from the herd by pail or nipple bucket as they grow older. As I have stated above, a dairy cow can produce much more milk than her calf can drink. Farmers take absolute care to make sure that the calves drink enough colostrum in the first hours after they are born. This can be difficult to judge if a calf is nursing, which is why most farm will supplement with extra bottle fed colostrum even if the calf is nursing from the mother within a few hours after birth to make sure the calf gets enough of this high calorie wonder food that is full of essential antibodies. (Colostrum is never shipped to the processor, if a cow has too much for her calf, it is frozen to feed to other calves whose mothers may not have sufficient amounts for their own calf.) After the first few days, calves are given whole milk from the herd as opposed to colostrum. Most farms wean the calves from milk around 2-3 months of age, onto a diet of hay, grains and other forages as their digestive systems mature. But what about the horrific clips shown of cows chasing after their calves that are being dragged away by a cruel farmer or cows bellowing loudly? Unfortunately, just like in all walks of life, the dairy industry does have some bad apples. These clips are awful examples of bad cow management practices. However, this does not mean that things like this happen on all farms. Abuse does happen; it is not the norm, but the very rare exception. Cows will bellow for many reasons, including for food, in unfamiliar situations, and when they are in heat (their fertile period). Without showing the context of why these cows are vocalizing, Ms. Janus lets the reader assume that these cows are crying for their babies, while this very probably is not the case! Who do you think is more of an expert on farming, a vlogger who has likely never set foot on a farm or a real life family farmer?

More here:
https://www.dairyfarmers.ca/farmers-voice/farming/milk-myths-debunked-dairy-is-scary-or-not

[Ender]

Liger, bro.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/96/60/c3/9660c3fa201790a9275237f975b49f25.jpg

Ligers are totally cool.

[specsaregood]

Milk Myths Debunked: Dairy is Scary – or Not?
February 8th, 2016

By: Julaine Treur

Over the past few months, a new video about the dairy industry has been floating around the internet. Titled “Dairy is F*ing Scary” it purports to show that dairy farming is cruel and inhumane. Erin Janus glibly rattles off dozens of myths about and misrepresentations of the dairy industry, while horrific images flash over the screen. I’ve watched the video numerous times, all the while shaking my head at the blatant lies gleefully rattling off this woman’s tongue. At the request of one of my blog readers, I’d like to try to address the claims Ms. Janus makes.



More here:
https://www.dairyfarmers.ca/farmers-voice/farming/milk-myths-debunked-dairy-is-scary-or-not

good info, however the commenters on that blog post are insane.

[Vieux Canard]

All food products carry some risk.

That said, I do not think dairy products are unhealthy, I find that to be a false statement.

I think the "alternatives" may have greater health risks, which I backed up with charts showing declining life spans and increased obesity and diabetes as simple, wholesome dairy, meats and cheeses are replaced by frankenfoods, "macroorganics" and other heavily processed "alternatives" to these simple, safe and tasty food choices that have been feeding mankind for 50,000 years.

And what, exactly does "responsible" mean?

If not outright false, it is very ambiguous and shadowy in meaning.
The reason milk sales have been in decline is because milk produced by factory farms doesn't taste very good. Cows were designed and bred over millenia to wander grassy fields. Take these cows and put them on concrete pads where they stand all day eating grains laced with antibiotics on one end and shitting into a trough on the other and it should be no surprise that milk quality has suffered. Why the antibiotics? Because these cows are sick all the time from the unnatural diet. Why the grain? Because it boost milk production. The farmer doesn't care that these cows live half as long as their pastured equivalent because they will soon be featured at McDonalds.

[lilymc]

Milk Myths Debunked: Dairy is Scary – or Not?
February 8th, 2016

By: Julaine Treur

Over the past few months, a new video about the dairy industry has been floating around the internet. Titled “Dairy is F*ing Scary” it purports to show that dairy farming is cruel and inhumane. Erin Janus glibly rattles off dozens of myths about and misrepresentations of the dairy industry, while horrific images flash over the screen. I’ve watched the video numerous times, all the while shaking my head at the blatant lies gleefully rattling off this woman’s tongue. At the request of one of my blog readers, I’d like to try to address the claims Ms. Janus makes.



More here:
https://www.dairyfarmers.ca/farmers-voice/farming/milk-myths-debunked-dairy-is-scary-or-not

Your source is dairy farmers.ca? That is their way of life and livelihood…what do you expect they’re going to say?

I didn’t read anything past the BS line about mothers not having much motherly instinct. Not only is that demonstrably untrue, but it is very deceptive because what they’re failing to mention is that when you continue to take calves away from mothers over and over and over again, don’t you think eventually something is going to happen? I’m sure there’s some psychological issue going on there, due to that repeated cruelty of stealing their babies.

It seems to me that people want to rationalize all this, in order to avoid making changes. I know, because I was there before. I remember when I used to eat meat and dairy, I would rationalize it by saying very similar things to what you’re saying. Now I see it completely differently, and I’m sad that I purposely failed to truly look into it, for many years… perhaps on some level knowing I wouldn’t like what I find. Coincidently, my sig is about this very issue.

[Danke]

I made this for the crew once, this exact recipe.

I got a round of applause.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ZzJiW2WqM

I will not eat veal because of the cruel way they live their short lives.

[Origanalist]

I will not eat veal because of the cruel way they live their short lives.

You are a very sensitive man.

[Danke]

You are a very sensitive man.


To a fault.

The human tongue is one of the most important yet least understood structures of the body. One reason for the relative lack of research on the human tongue is its complex anatomy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687025/

[specsaregood]

Your source is dairy farmers.ca? That is their way of life and livelihood…what do you expect they’re going to say?
.

Yeah, totally. I mean, when I want the facts or truth about something, the last person I'm going to listen to is somebody that actually is involved in the industry and lives it every single day. What do those people know? I'd rather believe a blogger with an agenda.

[Ender]

Yeah, totally. I mean, when I want the facts or truth about something, the last person I'm going to listen to is somebody that actually is involved in the industry and lives it every single day. What do those people know? I'd rather believe a blogger with an agenda.

Exactly.

And, I have worked with natural dairy farmers that treat their animals with great care. I am very particular about healthy natural living and respect for all life.

And lilymc, I hate to tell you, but they are discovering that plants have intelligence too. Better think how your little vegan eatable friends are also being treated.


The Secret Life of Plant Perception: Plants Can See, Hear, Smell, Feel, React, and Think
Plant senses don’t work the same as human senses, but generally speaking, plants can see, hear, smell, feel, react, and even think. Below we discuss plant senses and plant perception.

Understanding Plant Senses, Plant Intelligence, and Plant Perception
Plants have a wide range of senses and can react to phenomena like chemicals, gravity, pressure, light, moisture, infections, temperature, oxygen and carbon dioxide concentrations, parasite infestation, disease, physical disruption, sound, and touch.[1]

Plants use their cells the way we use our eyes, ears, mouth, and nose. They pick up electrochemical signals from the environment (feeling and sensing) and then process that information (thinking), releasing hormones and electrochemical signals, which causes the plant to react.

In other words, plants can sense, feel, think, and react based on sensory input. That process doesn’t work exactly the same as it does with humans, but it is analogous in many ways.

FACT: All organisms have senses, not just plants. Mushrooms and bacteria are also living organisms with sensory perception.

Can plants think?
Examples of Plant Senses
Some plants can use one cell to focus light into another cell, and then process that information and use it to react to the environment (for example to grow toward the sunlight).[2] Is that “seeing”? Speaking loosely, we can argue yes, even though photoreceptors don’t work the same way in humans and plants.

We have the same argument for smells, sounds, and touch.

For example, some plants can sense insects on their leaves and retract their leaves as a defense mechanism.
Likewise, some small flowering plants can “hear” themselves being chewed by sensing vibrations, triggering a chemical defense as a response.[3]

Likewise, fruiting plants can “smell” the chemical pheromone ethylene (a small hydrocarbon gas) produced by rotting fruit and react by ripening its fruits faster, so all fruits ripen at the same time.[4]

Plants can even communicate with other organisms, like the mushroom. For example, trees communicate with each other across distances by passing messages through their roots and along underground webs of fungal growth. So, not only is a plant reacting to its environment via its senses, some are capable of interspecies communication.

http://factmyth.com/factoids/plants-have-senses/

[Origanalist]

To a fault.

The human tongue is one of the most important yet least understood structures of the body. One reason for the relative lack of research on the human tongue is its complex anatomy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687025/

Are you trying to tell me something in a roundabout way? You can be honest, I wont make fun of you.

[lilymc]

Exactly.

And, I have worked with natural dairy farmers that treat their animals with great care. I am very particular about healthy natural living and respect for all life.

And lilymc, I hate to tell you, but they are discovering that plants have intelligence too. Better think how your little vegan eatable friends are also being treated.


http://factmyth.com/factoids/plants-have-senses/


Rationalizing. Of course there are some small farms that treat animals better than factory farms. But as they didn’t even deny, even on the small farms they take the babies away from the mothers, and the males are sold (or in some countries killed at a very young age, treated as garbage.) Dairy is a horrible industry and more more people are realizing that. That’s why the whole industry is dying, that’s why they needed to be bailed out.

As for the absolutely asinine thing about plants, you brought that up before… You are way too smart to post things like that. God gave us fruits and veggies to eat, that is their purpose. It is either retarded or very very dishonest to compare slicing into an apple with slicing into a pig or cow.

[otherone]

Exactly.

And, I have worked with natural dairy farmers that treat their animals with great care. I am very particular about healthy natural living and respect for all life.

And lilymc, I hate to tell you, but they are discovering that plants have intelligence too. Better think how your little vegan eatable friends are also being treated.



http://factmyth.com/factoids/plants-have-senses/

Plants babies don't have big eyes and large foreheads, bro.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PB5FosTwM8s/maxresdefault.jpg

[lilymc]

Yeah, totally. I mean, when I want the facts or truth about something, the last person I'm going to listen to is somebody that actually is involved in the industry and lives it every single day. What do those people know? I'd rather believe a blogger with an agenda.

There are numerous former dairy farmers who could no longer do it and ended up going vegan, who are now saying something very different than this Canadian farm.

But if you would rather believe the ones who want to continue making a profit and not have their industry tarnished, then go right ahead.

I'll stick with actual video footage anyone can see online, as well as numerous people who either grew up in that environment or worked as dairy farmers for years, who are telling it like it is.

[Danke]

Rationalizing. Of course there are some small farms that treat animals better than factory farms. But as they didn’t even deny, even on the small farms they take the babies away from the mothers, and the males are sold (or in some countries killed at a very young age, treated as garbage.) Dairy is a horrible industry and more more people are realizing that. That’s why the whole industry is dying, that’s why they needed to be bailed out.

As for the absolutely asinine thing about plants, you brought that up before… You are way too smart to post things like that. God gave us fruits and veggies to eat, that is their purpose. It is either retarded or very very dishonest to compare slicing into an apple with slicing into a pig or cow.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=remCqzeY06M

[Anti Federalist]

I will not eat veal because of the cruel way they live their short lives.

You don't want to be around if I get a mess of live clams and lobsters then...

[Anti Federalist]

RECIPE? Well oo-la-la Mr. French man.

h0m0

No h0m0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZVWkjFGCBI

[Ender]

Rationalizing. Of course there are some small farms that treat animals better than factory farms. But as they didn’t even deny, even on the small farms they take the babies away from the mothers, and the males are sold (or in some countries killed at a very young age, treated as garbage.) Dairy is a horrible industry and more more people are realizing that. That’s why the whole industry is dying, that’s why they needed to be bailed out.

As for the absolutely asinine thing about plants, you brought that up before… You are way too smart to post things like that. God gave us fruits and veggies to eat, that is their purpose. It is either retarded or very very dishonest to compare slicing into an apple with slicing into a pig or cow.

Just because you don't relate to a plant like a cat or dog, does not mean they don't have feelings- they do. Think about that next time you down some veggies.

As for God:


And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he (Jesus) asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence. (Luke 41-43)


Though the Bible isn’t a book about diet, there is an entire chapter in the Old Testament that could be labeled the Bible’s version of “Eat This, Not That.”

Leviticus 11 devotes 47 verses to help us make a distinction “between the animal that may be eaten [eat this] and the animal that may not be eaten [not that]” (Leviticus 11:47). Additional guidance is also given in Deuteronomy 14. The Bible labels these “clean” and “unclean” meats.

Here’s an overview of what Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 teach us:

Clean mammals have a divided hoof and chew their cud. This means animals like cattle, goats and deer were created to be eaten, but mammals like pigs and rodents were not.

Clean fish have fins and scales. This means fish like cod, salmon, trout and tuna are fine for human consumption, but other water creatures like lobsters, shrimp, crab and catfish are not.

Clean birds include chicken, turkey, duck and quail. Unclean birds include vultures, seagulls, hawks and eagles.

[lilymc]

Just because you don't relate to a plant like a cat or dog, does not mean they don't have feelings- they do. Think about that next time you down some veggies.

As for God:


OK, I see you’re joking now.

As for the Scriptures, I was specifically talking about God‘s original purpose and design. Animals were not designed to be food. Fruits and veggies and food from the ground was. There is absolutely no denying that, it’s right there in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible. God‘s original design was a plant-based diet, and God‘s ultimate plan is a restoration of that original peace and harmony we had for short time in the garden of Eden. Everything in between is this fallen world and God gave us over to the things we wanted, but that doesn’t mean it was His idea or that He likes it.

[lilymc]

This is a really good video, I highly recommend taking the time to watch it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eAhKIwaj70

[lilymc]

The reason milk sales have been in decline is because milk produced by factory farms doesn't taste very good. Cows were designed and bred over millenia to wander grassy fields. Take these cows and put them on concrete pads where they stand all day eating grains laced with antibiotics on one end and $#@!ting into a trough on the other and it should be no surprise that milk quality has suffered. Why the antibiotics? Because these cows are sick all the time from the unnatural diet. Why the grain? Because it boost milk production. The farmer doesn't care that these cows live half as long as their pastured equivalent because they will soon be featured at McDonalds.

Speaking of that, I came across a shocking statistic today… I want to verify if this is true, but it’s very interesting. Apparently, many companies have a financial interest in keeping animal agriculture going. Of course people are eating this and it’s causing resistance… and people are getting sick which means they need more pharmaceutical drugs. And who benefits from that?

https://image.ibb.co/kZyyAn/Screen_Shot_2018_02_19_at_12_00_55_AM.png

[donnay]

OK, I see you’re joking now.

As for the Scriptures, I was specifically talking about God‘s original purpose and design. Animals were not designed to be food. Fruits and veggies and food from the ground was. There is absolutely no denying that, it’s right there in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible. God‘s original design was a plant-based diet, and God‘s ultimate plan is a restoration of that original peace and harmony we had for short time in the garden of Eden. Everything in between is this fallen world and God gave us over to the things we wanted, but that doesn’t mean it was His idea or that He likes it.

To say you know God's original plan, you must have missed these verses in Genesis of His original plan.

Genesis Chapter 2 verse 5:

“And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.”

https://www.scribd.com/document/68489404/Genesis-Chapter-2-The-man-Eth-ha-Adam

God made the second Adam (Hebrew: Eth-ha-adam) a farmer. Genesis 2:19-20 says:

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Moving on the children, Cain and Abel Genesis 4:2 says:

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

[nikcers]

LOL...they stopped drinking milk and started drinking HFCS laden sodas, juices and sweetened water.

The results?
You're ignoring the super food culture, even Rand wasn't dumb and tried to target the superfood voters Yeah there are a lot of people that are overweight but there is also an alternate culture that eat superfoods, that want to live to be 150. The superfood wave is coming and they will replace us all naturally because they will outlive us. The future isn't eating subsidized meat and cheese. The future is deserts with no calories, and slow digesting food pellets that will make us live longer and give us more energy and make us happier. It might be farmed, but it won't say moo. It might even be hemp based.

[milgram]

Animal milk has been an essential part of human survival. Mongolian nomads have been living off yaks and their milk for centuries. These people have little agriculture of any kind.

I recommend Taiga (1992) if you want to witness their lifestyle. It is a very long documentary but you won't forget it.

https://i.imgur.com/GaDZedU.jpg

[otherone]

Animal milk has been an essential part of human survival. Mongolian nomads have been living off yaks and their milk for centuries. These people have little agriculture of any kind.



They would also open a neck vein and drink horse blood on the fly.

[specsaregood]

They would also open a neck vein and drink horse blood on the fly.

And they rode female ponies almost exclusively, one reason being they would live off their milk.

[otherone]

And they rode female ponies almost exclusively, one reason being they would live off their milk.

And they would also dress as horses for their weird ceremonies at Horriday Inns.

https://farm8.static.flickr.com/7289/12129565605_5d1ba1b1eb_b.jpg

[Brian4Liberty]

You were comparing milk to soda or sweet drinks… My point was that that's a terrible comparison, because people who ditch dairy typically go to almond milk, cashew milk, rice milk, soy milk, oat milk or other non-dairy plant-based milks… Not soda or juice.
...

Sugar is a major ingredient in many of these milk substitutes. Just sayin'...

[parocks]

Well, also, people are learning that pasteurized milk is bad for you, at least compared to raw milk. The price of raw milk is not cheap.

[lilymc]

To say you know God's original plan, you must have missed these verses in Genesis of His original plan.

Genesis Chapter 2 verse 5:

“And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.”

https://www.scribd.com/document/68489404/Genesis-Chapter-2-The-man-Eth-ha-Adam

God made the second Adam (Hebrew: Eth-ha-adam) a farmer. Genesis 2:19-20 says:

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Moving on the children, Cain and Abel Genesis 4:2 says:

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.


You're bringing up a different topic and I'm not sure what you believe because as Pete said on that other thread, it is all over the place… But it is certainly not the standard Christian belief.

As for the verse about Adam naming the animals, that only confirms what I've been saying. God's original design which we saw in the Garden of Eden was peace and harmony, not a slaughterhouse. Adam was to take care of the animals, name them, and nowhere in Genesis 1 did God say "I created animals for you to eat and exploit." Genesis 1:29 is very very clear, don't ignore that verse.

Abel being a keeper of sheep does not mean for the purpose of eating them. The Bible is also clear that meat eating wasn't permitted until after the flood, and it is argued that that was only because all the vegetation was dead and there would have been very little to eat at that time. If any meat eating did occur before the flood, it almost certainly would have been because the fallen angels who corrupted mankind taught them all sorts of demonic things, meat-eating being one of them. In fact, some extra biblical writings say just that, I can look it up and post it for you if you want.



Sugar is a major ingredient in many of these milk substitutes. Just sayin'...

Not nearly as much as Coke or apple juice and things like that. Also, almond milk comes unsweetened. :)

[shakey1]

sounds to me they're milkin' it for all it's worth;)

[donnay]

[/B]You're bringing up a different topic and I'm not sure what you believe because as Pete said on that other thread, it is all over the place… But it is certainly not the standard Christian belief.

Hmm a different topic? I placed scripture up to point out what God did, not what I did. I read it with understanding, so I am not sure what standard Christian's believe or are being taught but the verses are pretty clear to me. Adam was made to be a farmer.



As for the verse about Adam naming the animals, that only confirms what I've been saying. God's original design which we saw in the garden of Eden was peace and harmony, not not a slaughterhouse. Adam was to take care of the animals, name them, and nowhere in Genesis 1 did God say "I created animals for you to eat and exploit." Genesis 1:29 is very very clear, don't ignore that verse.As for the verse about Adam naming the animals, that only confirms what I've been saying. God's original design which we saw in the garden of Eden was peace and harmony, not not a slaughterhouse. Adam was to take care of the animals, name them, and nowhere in Genesis 1 did God say "I created animals for you to eat and exploit." Genesis 1:29 is very very clear, don't ignore that verse.

Yes and verse 1:29 was at the end of the sixth day. My quote verse was after that Genesis 2:19-20


Abel being a keeper of sheep does not mean for the purpose of eating them. The Bible is also clear that meat eating wasn't permitted until after the flood, and it is argued that that was only because all the vegetation was dead and there would have been very little to eat at that time. If any meat eating did occur before the flood, it almost certainly would have been because the fallen angels who corrupted mankind taught them all sorts of demonic things, meat-eating being one of them. In fact, some extra biblical writings say just that, I can look it up and post it for you if you want.

Then in Genesis 4:4 Abel was the keeper of the sheep and he brought God a sheep for offering.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his
offering:

In the Book of Isaiah talks about when the flesh is gone, because God loves his animals too. There will be no more carnivores in spiritual bodies. That is why these animals will be able to dwell with each other,

Isaiah 11:6-9 (KJV)

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.


The fallen angels were not spoken of until Genesis 6.

[Anti Federalist]

You're ignoring the super food culture, even Rand wasn't dumb and tried to target the superfood voters Yeah there are a lot of people that are overweight but there is also an alternate culture that eat superfoods, that want to live to be 150. The superfood wave is coming and they will replace us all naturally because they will outlive us. The future isn't eating subsidized meat and cheese. The future is deserts with no calories, and slow digesting food pellets that will make us live longer and give us more energy and make us happier. It might be farmed, but it won't say moo. It might even be hemp based.

Meh, you can have your Soylent Green pellets and Star Trek replicators and Nebuchadnezzar protein gruel.

Ever wonder why almost every dystopian novel had some reference to the awful food that existed?

Because a good meal is a symbol of a free and prosperous society.

A good meal is a transcendental experience, to be savored, enjoyed and reflected upon.

The neo-proletarians can keep their macro-organic, vegan, cruelty free, gluten free, fat free, tasteless, worthless, helpless glop that passes for a good meal.

Give me a NY strip, red, juicy and so damn tasty, basted in garlic butter, with green beans, fried potatoes, a Manhattan and a Macundo to smoke afterwards.

You may live longer, but I'll live better.

[Swordsmyth]

Meh, you can have your Soylent Green pellets and Star Trek replicators and Nebuchadnezzar protein gruel.

Ever wonder why almost every dystopian novel had some reference to the awful food that existed?

Because a good meal is a symbol of a free and prosperous society.

A good meal is a transcendental experience, to be savored, enjoyed and reflected upon.

The neo-proletarians can keep their macro-organic, vegan, cruelty free, gluten free, fat free, tasteless, worthless, helpless glop that passes for a good meal.

Give me a NY strip, red, juicy and so damn tasty, basted in garlic butter, with green beans, fried potatoes, a Manhattan and a Macundo to smoke afterwards.

You may live longer, but I'll live better.

You and I will probably live longer than the losers who believe that science even comes close to understanding what a human should consume but even if we don't you are correct, living a long time is a curse if you are miserable the whole time.

[lilymc]

Hmm a different topic? I placed scripture up to point out what God did, not what I did. I read it with understanding, so I am not sure what standard Christian's believe or are being taught but the verses are pretty clear to me. Adam was made to be a farmer.




Yes and verse 1:29 was at the end of the sixth day. My quote verse was after that Genesis 2:19-20



Then in Genesis 4:4 Abel was the keeper of the sheep and he brought God a sheep for offering.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his
offering:

In the Book of Isaiah talks about when the flesh is gone, because God loves his animals too. There will be no more carnivores in spiritual bodies. That is why these animals will be able to dwell with each other,

Isaiah 11:6-9 (KJV)

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.


The fallen angels were not spoken of until Genesis 6.

Again, the important thing is God's original design/intent, which is the same as God's ultimate plan, as prophesied in Isaiah and other places. Since God does not change, I believe it is wrong to dismiss God's original design by cherry picking verses that may at first glance appear to contradict it.

There are a few different interpretations of that verse about Abel and his offering. The mainstream interpretation seems to be that once sin came into the world, that's when sacrifices were introduced, to of course foreshadow Jesus' sacrifice for our sin. Since this represented something very serious and horrible, it was not something to be done lightly. (And btw, nowhere in that text does it say they ate meat. In fact, that verse doesn't say that Abel killed anything, just that he brought God the best of his flock.)

There are a couple other views on that passage… But I don't have time right now to get into all of that.

Also, I think it's very important to know that God repeatedly said that he has no pleasure in animal slaughter and he never required it. (Psalm 51:16, Hosea 6:6, Jeremiah 7:22, Isaiah 1:11, Matthew 9:13, Hebrews 10:8, Psalm 40:6, Mark 12:33, Jeremiah 32:30, etc.)

So when you put all that together – the heart of God, a heart of love, mercy, compassion, along with his very clear words in Genesis 1:29, and the numerous verses about his desire for mercy, not sacrifice…I think it is wrong to assume that God has no problem with what we are doing with animals.

And like I mentioned before, there are a number of very interesting writings by the early Christians and some extra biblical texts that state that meat eating originated with the fallen angels, the ones who spawned the Nephilim...So if the origin is demonic and it was not God's original design, why do it?

[donnay]

Again, the important thing is God's original design/intent, which is the same as God's ultimate plan, as prophesied in Isaiah and other places. Since God does not change, I believe it is wrong to dismiss God's original design by cherry picking verses that may at first glance appear to contradict it.

There are a few different interpretations of that verse about Abel and his offering. The mainstream interpretation seems to be that once sin came into the world, that's when sacrifices were introduced, to of course foreshadow Jesus' sacrifice for our sin. Since this represented something very serious and horrible, it was not something to be done lightly. (And btw, nowhere in that text does it say they ate meat. In fact, that verse doesn't say that Abel killed anything, just that he brought God the best of his flock.)

There are a couple other views on that passage… But I don't have time right now to get into all of that.

Also, I think it's very important to know that God repeatedly said that he has no pleasure in animal slaughter and he never required it. (Psalm 51:16, Hosea 6:6, Jeremiah 7:22, Isaiah 1:11, Matthew 9:13, Hebrews 10:8, Psalm 40:6, Mark 12:33, Jeremiah 32:30, etc.)

So when you put all that together – the heart of God, a heart of love, mercy, compassion, along with his very clear words in Genesis 1:29, and the numerous verses about his desire for mercy, not sacrifice…I think it is wrong to assume that God has no problem with what we are doing with animals.

And like I mentioned before, there are a number of very interesting writings by the early Christians and some extra biblical texts that state that meat eating originated with the fallen angels, the ones who spawned the Nephilim...So if the origin is demonic and it was not God's original design, why do it?

Genesis 9:2-4 (KJV)

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.


For anyone who hunts, when you kill an animal you need to drain the blood and remove the inner organs quickly, or it will ruin the meat.

[oyarde]

God gave us beer .

[nikcers]

Meh, you can have your Soylent Green pellets and Star Trek replicators and Nebuchadnezzar protein gruel.

Ever wonder why almost every dystopian novel had some reference to the awful food that existed?

Because a good meal is a symbol of a free and prosperous society.

A good meal is a transcendental experience, to be savored, enjoyed and reflected upon.

The neo-proletarians can keep their macro-organic, vegan, cruelty free, gluten free, fat free, tasteless, worthless, helpless glop that passes for a good meal.

Give me a NY strip, red, juicy and so damn tasty, basted in garlic butter, with green beans, fried potatoes, a Manhattan and a Macundo to smoke afterwards.

You may live longer, but I'll live better.
Oh I don't think one has to choose quality over quantity of life. I think its okay if you choose to smoke tobacco, I am going to recommend you vape though because I have seen peoples health improve after they switch. Eating is a wonderful human ritual that I don't think will ever go away. I just don't take the time to eat right or prepare food, so most the time I am just eating junk food on the rush. Don't get me wrong on a weekend I like to eat, but while I am at work it slows me down, but I know when I don't eat at work I get distracted or I might not have the energy I need. I think though that with the right kind of superfood I could eat whatever junk food I want but also get all the nutrition I need.

[lilymc]

Genesis 9:2-4 (KJV)

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.


For anyone who hunts, when you kill an animal you need to drain the blood and remove the inner organs quickly, or it will ruin the meat.

Why no response to anything I said in my previous post? It's easy to post scriptures like the one above, but it doesn't negate anything I said. I already mentioned this passage earlier. I was about to go over all the different interpretations of that passage (there are a few, from a vegetarian/vegan perspective) but I honestly was not intending to get into a Bible study tonight, and that is not even the topic of this thread anyway, so we can go into more detail on this at another time, on another thread.

For now I'll say this. Picture in your mind a timeline. At the very beginning, you have God's perfect will (peace and harmony among all living beings, no violence, no killing, no meat eating)...And then at the end, when God restores that original design, once again you'll have God's perfect will. Everything in between is a symptom of this fallen world. Not God's perfect will, but in many cases God giving us over to what we want, due to the hardness of our hearts.

So when you look at that timeline, and you see on the left and on the right, God's perfect will… and in the middle this fallen world… what should we, as Christians, aim for? Unless it is a matter of survival, why not honor God's original design and His ultimate plan which he is moving us toward, as we speak?

Why not think about the condition of mankind overall, and question why there is so much disease, violence, corruption? Perhaps if we go back to how God originally designed us – to be peaceful, non-violent, and to eat a healthy plant-based diet – then we would see a reversal of these diseases and destruction of this beautiful earth God gave us stewardship of.

Also, think about the fruit of the Spirit. What is more in line with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control – a slaughterhouse or a garden? :) Please answer honestly.

[donnay]

Why no response to anything I said in my previous post? It's easy to post scriptures like the one above, but it doesn't negate anything I said. I already mentioned this passage earlier. I was about to go over all the different interpretations of that passage (there are a few, from a vegetarian/vegan perspective) but I honestly was not intending to get into a Bible study tonight, and that is not even the topic of this thread anyway, so we can go into more detail on this at another time, on another thread.

For now I'll say this. Picture in your mind a timeline. At the very beginning, you have God's perfect will (peace and harmony among all living beings, no violence, no killing, no meat eating)...And then at the end, when God restores that original design, once again you'll have God's perfect will. Everything in between is a symptom of this fallen world. Not God's perfect will, but in many cases God giving us over to what we want, due to the hardness of our hearts.

So when you look at that timeline, and you see on the left and on the right, God's perfect will… and in the middle this fallen world… what should we, as Christians, aim for? Unless it is a matter of survival, why not honor God's original design and His ultimate plan which he is moving us toward, as we speak?

Why not think about the condition of mankind overall, and question why there is so much disease, violence, corruption? Perhaps if we go back to how God originally designed us – to be peaceful, non-violent, and to eat a healthy plant-based diet – then we would see a reversal of these diseases and destruction of this beautiful earth God gave us stewardship of.

Also, think about the fruit of the Spirit. What is more in line with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control – a slaughterhouse or a garden? :) Please answer honestly.

I have been answering honestly, but you do not want to hear it. In order for you to understand God's Original Design you must understand about the first Earth Age and what happened. If you do not understand the Beginning, you will not understand the Ending of this earth age.

Reference:
http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-first-earth-age.html
http://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudies/threeworldages.htm


God created ALL flesh for HIS reason. We are born innocent so that we can make up our minds as to whom we will love and serve--God or Satan? It's really quite simple.

Our flesh is made in the image of God and the angels.

In Exodus 16 God sent down Manna (Angel's food) and quail (a non-scavenger flesh) for the children of Israel to eat when Moses lead them out of the bondage of Egypt.

The Health Laws in Leviticus God laid out for a reason. God made our flesh bodies and who would know better to give guidance on what to eat and what not eat? By eating scavengers it does not mean you are committing a sin to your soul, but God knew it will make the flesh body sick. Again, God put scavengers on this earth for a reason. The swine for instance is here to clean. Farmers would have swine on their farms to keep the farm clean--they eat all the waste.

Colossians 2:16-23 (KJV)

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


Now that being said-- I do not condone cruelty towards animals of any kind, but if I go hunting or fishing and I get meat, I always give Thanks to our Father for providing it for me and my family.

[lilymc]

I have been answering honestly, but you do not want to hear it. In order for you to understand God's Original Design you must understand about the first Earth Age and what happened. If you do not understand the Beginning, you will not understand the Ending of this earth age.

Reference:
http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-first-earth-age.html
http://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudies/threeworldages.htm


God created ALL flesh for HIS reason. We are born innocent so that we can make up our minds as to whom we will love and serve--God or Satan? It's really quite simple.

Our flesh is made in the image of God and the angels.

In Exodus 16 God sent down Manna (Angel's food) and quail (a non-scavenger flesh) for the children of Israel to eat when Moses lead them out of the bondage of Egypt.

The Health Laws in Leviticus God laid out for a reason. God made our flesh bodies and who would know better to give guidance on what to eat and what not eat? By eating scavengers it does not mean you are committing a sin to your soul, but God knew it will make the flesh body sick. Again, God put scavengers on this earth for a reason. The swine for instance is here to clean. Farmers would have swine on their farms to keep the farm clean--they eat all the waste.

Colossians 2:16-23 (KJV)

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


Now that being said-- I do not condone cruelty towards animals of any kind, but if I go hunting or fishing and I get meat, I always give Thanks to our Father for providing it for me and my family.

Donna, again you're not addressing anything I said. You did that twice now. That's not how I like to debate, because if I'm going to reply to the things you're saying, then I think it's only fair that you would do the same.

The Scriptures about the quail are one of the worst things you could have chosen in support of meat eating… That was a curse! The only reason God gave them quail was because they were complaining nonstop, meat was what they were craving, so God gave them what they wanted.



Exodus 16:3

And the children of Israel said to them, “Oh, that we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the pots of meat and when we ate bread to the full! For you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger.”


Numbers 11:4-6

The rabble with them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, “If only we had meat to eat! We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost—also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. But now we have lost our appetite; we never see anything but this manna!”


Later, God was angry about their ungratefulness, complaining and selfishness, so here is God's response:


Num. 11:18-20

“Tell the people: Consecrate yourselves in preparation for tomorrow, when you will eat meat. Yahweh heard you when you wailed, ‘If only we had meat to eat! We were better off in Egypt!’ Now Yahweh will give you meat, and you will eat it. You will not eat it for just one day, or two days, or five, ten or twenty days, but for a whole month. You will eat it until it comes out of your nostrils and you loathe it! This is because you have rejected Yahweh, who is among you, and have wailed before Him, saying, ‘Why did we ever leave Egypt?'”

And God struck them down with the plague:

Numbers 11:33


33 But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was aroused against the people, and the Lord struck the people with a very great plague.

Even in Psalms it states that what happened, God gave them what they craved, but it was accompanied by a plague and people dying!


Psalm 78:26-29

God let loose the east wind from the heavens and by His power made the south wind blow. He rained meat down on them like dust, birds like sand on the seashore. He made them come down inside their camp, all around their tents. They ate till they were gorged—He had given them what they craved

Psalm 106:13-15

But they soon forgot what He had done and did not wait for His plan to unfold. In the desert they gave in to their craving; in the wilderness they put God to the test. So He gave them what they asked for, but sent a wasting disease among them.




You know, now that I think about it… I believe this quail curse story is a good analogy of what is going on in the world today. We were not happy with what God gave us originally (see Genesis 1:29) so God gave us what we wanted… Dead animal flesh. Similar to the Israelites who had quail coming out of their nostrils, we are now gorging on animals every day. And what has been the result of that? Well first of all, the years of people's lives is significantly shorter… Down to 120 years, as opposed to 800 or 1000 years that people used to live pre-flood.

Not only that, but as time goes on, there is more and more disease in this world, illnesses, cancer, heart disease… All of these things were never meant to happen, but they're happening because we are living in ways that were not the way God originally intended us to live. And it's not just what we eat, but our heart… Instead of caring about God's perfect will and the bigger picture, most of us only care about ourselves and our own desires. We were never meant to eat animals, but God allows many things to take place in this world that were never His original plan.

As for the other things you brought up, like Leviticus, none of that changes God's original design. You keep ignoring that, and not addressing my point. Everything in the middle of the timeline that starts with Genesis and ends with the prophetic scriptures is a symptom of this fallen world.

You didn't answer my questions from before, but I don't want to keep asking you if you are choosing to not answer. So I think I will leave this discussion because it doesn't look like these things are going to be addressed, and I do not want us to go around in circles.

[Swordsmyth]

lilymc

Isaiah 7:15

“Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.”

King James Version (KJV)


Isaiah 7:22

“And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.”

King James Version (KJV)


Jeremiah 11:5

“That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O LORD.”

King James Version (KJV)

[donnay]

Donna, again you're not addressing anything I said. You did that twice now. That's not how I like to debate, because if I'm going to reply to the things you're saying, then I think it's only fair that you would do the same.

The Scriptures about the quail are one of the worst things you could have chosen in support of meat eating… That was a curse! The only reason God gave them quail was because they were complaining nonstop, meat was what they were craving, so God gave them what they wanted.



Exodus 16:3

And the children of Israel said to them, “Oh, that we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the pots of meat and when we ate bread to the full! For you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger.”


Numbers 11:4-6

The rabble with them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, “If only we had meat to eat! We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost—also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. But now we have lost our appetite; we never see anything but this manna!”


Later, God was angry about their ungratefulness, complaining and selfishness, so here is God's response:


Num. 11:18-20

“Tell the people: Consecrate yourselves in preparation for tomorrow, when you will eat meat. Yahweh heard you when you wailed, ‘If only we had meat to eat! We were better off in Egypt!’ Now Yahweh will give you meat, and you will eat it. You will not eat it for just one day, or two days, or five, ten or twenty days, but for a whole month. You will eat it until it comes out of your nostrils and you loathe it! This is because you have rejected Yahweh, who is among you, and have wailed before Him, saying, ‘Why did we ever leave Egypt?'”

And God struck them down with the plague:

Numbers 11:33


33 But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was aroused against the people, and the Lord struck the people with a very great plague.

Even in Psalms it states that what happened, God gave them what they craved, but it was accompanied by a plague and people dying!


Psalm 78:26-29

God let loose the east wind from the heavens and by His power made the south wind blow. He rained meat down on them like dust, birds like sand on the seashore. He made them come down inside their camp, all around their tents. They ate till they were gorged—He had given them what they craved

Psalm 106:13-15

But they soon forgot what He had done and did not wait for His plan to unfold. In the desert they gave in to their craving; in the wilderness they put God to the test. So He gave them what they asked for, but sent a wasting disease among them.




You know, now that I think about it… I believe this quail curse story is a good analogy of what is going on in the world today. We were not happy with what God gave us originally (see Genesis 1:29) So God gave us what we wanted… Dead animal flesh. Similar to the Israelites who had quail coming out of their nostrils, we are now gorging on animals every day. And what has been the result of that? Well first of all, the years of peoples lives was significantly shorter… Down to 120 years, as opposed to 800 or 1000 years that people used to live pre-flood.

Not only that, but as time goes on, there is more and more disease in this world, illnesses, cancer, heart disease… All of these things were never meant to happen, but they're happening because we are living in ways that were not the way God originally intended us to live. And it's not just what we eat but our heart… Instead of caring about God's perfect will and the bigger picture, most of us only care about ourselves and our own desires. We were never meant to eat animals, but God allows many things to take place in this world that were never His original plan.

As for the other things you brought up, like Leviticus, none of that changes God's original design. You keep ignoring that, and not addressing my point. Everything in the middle of the timeline that starts with Genesis and ends with the prophetic scriptures is a symptom of this fallen world.

You didn't answer my questions from before, but I don't want to keep asking you if you are choosing to not answer. So I think I will leave this discussion because it doesn't look like these things are going to be addressed, and I do not want us to go around in circles.

The point of Exodus was that they ate Manna (which is angel's food) because we are made in God's and the angel's image. That being said, if we are made in God and the angel's image and no meat was involved, God would have just fed them for 40 years with angel's food--period.

How can you say you know God's Original Design when you do not acknowledge a world age before this one and you do not acknowledge a six day creation? Therefore you do not acknowledge that God created the second man (Adam) to be a farmer which includes farming animals.

As far a diseases go, there is no doubt that mankind has polluted this world. However, how many people follow the health Laws? I know a lot of people who think that they do not have to follow them because Jesus died on the cross and made all food clean now. That is simply not true.

You have a right to be a vegetarian / vegan if that is what works for you. But to claim people are sick because they eat meat, is a bit disingenuous.