How Much Am I Bid for this Bridge? ('Fixing'? or Selling Off our Nation's Infrastructure)

[goldenequity]

Would you rather swim across or pay a toll ("We accept Yuan or Euro.")
I love garage sales. You can find really great deals.

[pcosmar]

Would you rather swim across or pay a toll ("We accept Yuan or Euro.")
I love garage sales. You can find really great deals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/London_Bridge_Havasu_Sign.jpg/1024px-London_Bridge_Havasu_Sign.jpg

Wanna buy a bridge?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Parker_02.png/1200px-Parker_02.png

I guess it depends on who is selling it.

[angelatc]

Would you rather swim across or pay a toll ("We accept Yuan or Euro.")
I love garage sales. You can find really great deals.

Muh roads!!!!!

Tolls are user fees. User fees are Libertarian. I vote tolls.

[acptulsa]

Muh roads!!!!!

Tolls are user fees. User fees are Libertarian. I vote tolls.

So you approve of politicians selling assets bought and paid for by the sweat of American taxpayers to the foreign corporations which happen to be the highest brib-- campaign contrib-- er, I mean bidders so they can charge us tomorrow to use what we own today?

[pcosmar]

Muh roads!!!!!

Tolls are user fees. User fees are Libertarian. I vote tolls.

Show me the owner. Government does not OWN roads..It did not ever create roads..

It usurps Roads..and then demands.

People made roads..they made roads from paths..

They made paths to market. They made Docks by the rivers.. and paths to the trade posts.

From the farms to the towns... From one town to another.. People did that
Later the Government claimed ownership,, and charged tax,, and gives or denies permission.

Phuck your Toll Road.

[Anti Federalist]

So you approve of politicians selling assets bought and paid for by the sweat of American taxpayers to the foreign corporations which happen to be the highest brib-- campaign contrib-- er, I mean bidders so they can charge us tomorrow to use what we own today?

Not to mention all the people tossed off their land under the threat of a government gun to build said roads.

[bunklocoempire]

Privately operated toll roads:
Money up front, relationship up front, self-control demanded and promoted -or you can catch a ride. You already paid the money up front for the specific road you are on, you must be at least that responsible.

Muh roads:
Mysterious unaccountable money hole, militarized road rule/etc. enforcers with little to no accountability, no-fault scam, licensing scam, drive however you want -until you can't.

The other day the neighbor and I talked again about developing a common mule trail/4x4 trail -he tells me he knows of 4 others (adjoined properties) who would be interested in a voluntary road along the property lines. One of those fellas supposedly has a dozer. :)
Not a gun was pulled or election held, go figure.

Now to travel on through the proposed mule trail, you must have a relationship with one of us, if you don't have time for a relationship, make time or pay somebody who does have a relationship with one of us.

If our mule trail lets you down, or if we kick you off, $imply get "legal" and go back to the use of the "muh roads" system -or use mob rule to get others to pay your way on the "muh roads" system.

It's a fun liberty exercise, could you get from point A to point B without government? I think you could. Or are you some sort of an a-hole? ;)

[angelatc]

So you approve of politicians selling assets bought and paid for by the sweat of American taxpayers to the foreign corporations which happen to be the highest brib-- campaign contrib-- er, I mean bidders so they can charge us tomorrow to use what we own today?

Yep. Auction it off to the highest bidder. Privatize everything.

[specsaregood]

Muh roads!!!!!
Tolls are user fees. User fees are Libertarian. I vote tolls.

I'm always surprised that some of the most socialist states in the US are filled with toll roads and bridges.

[pcosmar]

Privately operated toll roads:


That is fine as long as you are building your toll road on your land..
But not roads my ancestors built and I have maintained.. It is not yours.
However I maintain that the Government does not "OWN" it either. By what right do they take roads already in existence and make them "private"?

[pcosmar]

Yep. Auction it off to the highest bidder. Privatize everything.

You have to have ownership to sell it..

[acptulsa]

I'm always surprised that some of the most socialist states in the US are filled with toll roads and bridges.

Who else but a socialist could possibly think they could sell what they don't own?

Who else but a socialist could possibly think turning something public to private gain is just?

Who else but a socialist could possibly think the money realized from such a sale would automatically be used by that government for the public good?

[pcosmar]

Who else but a socialist could possibly think they could sell what they don't own?

Who else but a socialist could possibly think turning something public to private gain is just?

Who else but a socialist could possibly think the money realized from such a sale would automatically be used by that government for the public good?

Cliven Bundy Understands.

[pcosmar]

Would you rather swim across or pay a toll

Back to the OP.

I would rather see money,, already being paid in tax and fees used to actually maintain and repair roads in existence.

Less lining pockets and more improvement of Public Places.

I would like to see that,, but I don't really expect it.

[angelatc]

Who could possibly think they could sell what they don't own?

The government owns the land.


Who could possibly think turning something public to private gain is just? Pretty much every Libertarian on the planet.


Who could possibly think the money realized from such a sale would automatically be used by that government for the public good?

Who cares? I just want to stop paying for roads I don't use. Privatize everything. (I LOL'd at "public good.")

[pcosmar]

The government owns the land.


NO..
People own land.

What the government can (is allowed to) own is strictly defined in the Constitution.

And what they own must be purchased.. ROADS are not on the list.. Government can not own roads.
The Government can maintain Post Roads and post offices..
It does not own the roads.

[angelatc]

NO..
People own land.

What the government can (is allowed to) own is strictly defined in the Constitution.

And what they own must be purchased.. ROADS are not on the list.. Government can not own roads.
The Government can maintain Post Roads and post offices..
It does not own the roads.

Using that logic the federal government doesn't own 85% of the land in the west, either. But yet they do.

The federal government shouldn't own the roads, and tax money shouldn't pay for the roads. That's why I'm in favor of toll and private roads. Let people who actually use the roads pay for the roads.



New York docked $14M for I Love NY highway signs (https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/02/01/feds-dock-new-york-love-ny-signs/1087117001/)


The federal government docked New York $14 million on Thursday for installing more than 500 I Love NY signs that violate road rules and federal law.

The penalty imposed by the Federal Highway Administration is its strongest move yet to try to force the removal of the blue-and-white highway signs, which Gov. Andrew Cuomo's administration spent $8.1 million installing in recent years despite being ordered not to in 2013.

So much public good.

[angelatc]

It's a fun liberty exercise, could you get from point A to point B without government? I think you could. Or are you some sort of an a-hole? ;)

(https://tomwoods.com/the-road-question-yet-again/)Tom Woods:
"Who will build the roads?” is the question that belongs at the top of every libertarian drinking game. If we didn’t have forced labor, the argument runs, there would be no roads. There’d be a Sears store over there, and your house over here, and everyone involved would just be standing there scratching their heads.

[pcosmar]

Using that logic the federal government doesn't own 85% of the land in the west, either. But yet they do.


That is currently in dispute. In several places.

As for the tax,,, I would support maintenance of the roadways. and throw money into that jar without reservation,,

I do want it to be well spent and not lining Labor Bosses pockets.

I lived in the UP.. and I support the Road Crews.. They earn it.
My Father's Welds hold up the Big Mac.. the toll is offensive.

[angelatc]

As for the tax,,, I would support maintenance of the roadways. and throw money into that jar without reservation,,
.

And there we have it. You want to tax everybody, I want people to pay their fair share.

I don't believe in public anything. The private sector is always the better solution.

[acptulsa]

Who cares? I just want to stop paying for roads I don't use. Privatize everything. (I LOL'd at "public good.")

Uh huh. Well, Oklahoma is full of turnpikes, and Missouri has none. Yet their motor fuel taxes are at least as low as ours, and last I checked, lower.

So excuse me for being skeptical that privatization leads to taxpayers not paying for a thing.

[pcosmar]

And there we have it. You want to tax everybody,



No... I don't want to tax everybody.
But everyone that buys gasoline pays for the roads. Gas Tax. I have been paying it for road use for years on top of the USER FEE license plates and registration. And The License Tax to drive in the first place.

I object to my money being misspent,, because I have paid more than enough.
Now you want to sell assets that my ancestors worked for and on, to someone that will charge me even more for continued use on top of the tax I have paid.

Phuck You.

[Brian4Liberty]

I'm always surprised that some of the most socialist states in the US are filled with toll roads and bridges.


Uh huh. Well, Oklahoma is full of turnpikes, and Missouri has none. Yet their motor fuel taxes are at least as low as ours, and last I checked, lower.

So excuse me for being skeptical that privatization leads to taxpayers not paying for a thing.

Bingo.

The net effect is a brand new tax, in the form of tolls. No taxes repealed.

[Raginfridus]

I pay my taxes so the kids get a good education. I pay my tolls so I don't get robbed by highwaymen at 90 m/h.

Do you want to chance driving to work each morning knowing it could be your last if Lord Humongous catches you?!

[acptulsa]

I pay my taxes so the kids get a good education. I pay my tolls so I don't get robbed by highwaymen at 90 m/h.

Do you want to chance driving to work each morning knowing it could be your last if Lord Humongous catches you?!

Where do you find turnpikes with neither speed limits nor cops?

There's another tax which libertarians theorize toll roads would repeal, but which never get repealed in the real world.

[Raginfridus]

Where do you find turnpikes with neither speed limits nor cops?

There's another tax which libertarians theorize toll roads would repeal, but which never get repealed in the real world.There's a toll on the KS side leaving Kansas City. ;) Never been pulled over, and I gun it after that toll.

[angelatc]

Now you want to sell assets that my ancestors worked for and on....


I can't help but wonder how many of the Bernie Sanders people were Ron Paul people.

[angelatc]

The net effect is a brand new tax, in the form of tolls. No taxes repealed.

The difference is that the tolls are paid only by the people that actually use the road. I live in the middle of nowhere. I've never been across any of the roads that Pete's kin pioneered or whatever. But I pay as much to register my car as the guy who drives 500 miles a day. In the meantime, I live on a dirt road that looks like the surface of the moon.

I pray for the privatization of muh roads, so I could pay somebody to phuckin fix mine instead of being forced to pay homage to pete's dead kin.

Did nobody actually listen to Ron Paul?

Wait - let me guess. We don't want to privatize education now, either?

[angelatc]

Uh huh. Well, Oklahoma is full of turnpikes, and Missouri has none. Yet their motor fuel taxes are at least as low as ours, and last I checked, lower.

So excuse me for being skeptical that privatization leads to taxpayers not paying for a thing.

I never said it did. But at least it means people who use the roads pay more for the roads they actually use.

The big corporate trucking operators appreciate your support, however.

[Brian4Liberty]

The difference is that the tolls are paid only by the people that actually use the road. I live in the middle of nowhere. I've never been across any of the roads that Pete's kin pioneered or whatever. But I pay as much to register my car as the guy who drives 500 miles a day. In the meantime, I live on a dirt road that looks like the surface of the moon.

I pray for the privatization of muh roads, so I could pay somebody to phuckin fix mine instead of being forced to pay homage to pete's dead kin.

Did nobody actually listen to Ron Paul?

Wait - let me guess. We don't want to privatize education now, either?

And your registration will only go up, as will your gasoline taxes. With electric vehicle use expanding, wait for a new tax on electricity.

[nikcers]

And your registration will only go up, as will your gasoline taxes. With electric vehicle use expanding, wait for a new tax on electricity.
Trump doesn't support taxes what are you talking about.

Trump suggests 25 cent increase in gas tax, senator says

President Donald Trump suggested Wednesday that a 25 cent increase in gas and diesel taxes would be needed to help pay for

the administration's new infrastructure plan, according to Democratic Sen. Tom Carper. In a bipartisan meeting with lawmakers at the White House, Trump noted that the federal gas tax hasn't been raised since 1993, said Carper, the top Democrat on the Environment and Public Works Committee.


"He said that he knew it was a difficult thing for legislators to support and said that he would support the leadership to do that and provide the political cover to do that," Delaware's Carper told CNN in an interview. "And he came back to that theme again and again and again."

[angelatc]

And your registration will only go up, as will your gasoline taxes. With electric vehicle use expanding, wait for a new tax on electricity.

I did cost accounting for a living before my husband had the stroke and needed a constant babysitter. I know full well how to distribute costs. What they should tax is the mileage per vehicle, adjusted for the weight of the vehicle. But that freaks out the Libertarians as well.

But thinking outside the box - private roads might not even require a state tag to drive on.

And let's not dismiss the notion that private roads would compete with each other for traffic. You want to get there fast? The expensive road is your solution. DOn't mind about a million stoplights with advertising supported signs every 10 feet? Then welcome to the slow road.

[pcosmar]

I've never been across any of the roads that Pete's kin pioneered or whatever.

Oh yes you have. You did live in Michigan as I remember.

My ancestors settled it. it's like historically documented and such.

Portage St. in Sault Sainte Marie was originally a passage by trappers and traders..
Long before the Soo Locks existed..

My ancestors established that road. and Others.

The Mackinac Bridge,, Dad was an Underwater (Hardhat) Welder. That bridge stands on my Daddy's welds.
I'm not sure it was ever a good idea.. but the toll is excessive and the "maintenance" wasteful.

I have walked it a few times.

How do you think the things come to your stores from?
On roads,, that were market trails,, that the Government usurped but does not own.

I believe that local people,,(local government) should maintain local roads for the use of all the people doing trade.. it is in their own self intrest.

Burdening travel with highway robbery is not in anyone's interest but the robbers.

[Brian4Liberty]

...What they should tax is the mileage per vehicle, adjusted for the weight of the vehicle. But that freaks out the Libertarians as well.
...

A gasoline tax is an approximate proxy for a weight/mileage tax. Heavier vehicles requires more fuel. This is what has them panicked about electric vehicles. How to tax them, especially as they are pushing them on everyone.

Libertarians would have a problem with mileage tax as it either requires annual mileage reporting, or even worse, electronic tracking. And no doubt electronic tracking will be the preference of Big Mother. Tolls roads and bridges in certain states generally require electronic tracking, and everyone complies.


And let's not dismiss the notion that private roads would compete with each other for traffic. You want to get there fast? The expensive road is your solution. DOn't mind about a million stoplights with advertising supported signs every 10 feet? Then welcome to the slow road.

That's how they are doing it in California. Toll lane or toll road has less traffic.

And as Specs pondered, it is ironic that high tax states like New York, Illinois and California are leading the way for new toll roads, or new tolls on existing roads.

[nikcers]

A gasoline tax is an approximate proxy for a weight/mileage tax. Heavier vehicles requires more fuel. This is what has them panicked about electric vehicles. How to tax them, especially as they are pushing them on everyone.

Libertarians would have a problem with mileage tax as it either requires annual mileage reporting, or even worse, electronic tracking. And no doubt electronic tracking will be the preference of Big Mother. Tolls roads and bridges in certain states generally require electronic tracking, and everyone complies.



That's how they are doing it in California. Toll lane or toll road has less traffic.

And as Specs pondered, it is ironic that high tax states like New York, Illinois and California are leading the way for new toll roads, or new tolls on existing roads.
The gas tax is a boondoggle because the revenue gets misappropriated and doesn't ever go to what its supposed to pay for.

[Brian4Liberty]

The gas tax is a boondoggle because the revenue gets misappropriated and doesn't ever go to what its supposed to pay for.

Of course. SOP. Maybe they need to put it in Al Gore's lockbox.

[nikcers]

Of course. SOP. Maybe they need to put it in Al Gore's lockbox.
Yeah either that or don't call it a gas tax to fund public roads, because we are using it to fund the war on drugs.

[Wooden Indian]

The difference is that the tolls are paid only by the people that actually use the road. I live in the middle of nowhere. I've never been across any of the roads that Pete's kin pioneered or whatever. But I pay as much to register my car as the guy who drives 500 miles a day. In the meantime, I live on a dirt road that looks like the surface of the moon.

I pray for the privatization of muh roads, so I could pay somebody to phuckin fix mine instead of being forced to pay homage to pete's dead kin.

Did nobody actually listen to Ron Paul?

Wait - let me guess. We don't want to privatize education now, either?

Marry me?

[TheCount]

Uh huh. Well, Oklahoma is full of turnpikes, and Missouri has none. Yet their motor fuel taxes are at least as low as ours, and last I checked, lower.

So excuse me for being skeptical that privatization leads to taxpayers not paying for a thing.

Bingo.

The net effect is a brand new tax, in the form of tolls. No taxes repealed.

This. Exact same situation as the budget "cuts" proposed by the current administration: money will be redirected elsewhere rather than simply not taken from the people or not spent.