New Federal Taxes On Consumers Just Announced

[r3volution 3.0]

This happened a couple days ago, seems to have gotten buried in the "shutdown" drama.


Trump will impose a 20% tariff on the first 1.2m imported large residential washers in the first year, and a 50% tariff on machines above that number. The tariffs decline to 16% and 40% respectively in the third year.

A 30% tariff will be imposed on imported solar cells and modules in the first year, with the tariffs declining to 15% by the fourth year. The tariff allows 2.5 gigawatts of unassembled solar cells to be imported tariff-free in each year.

Whirlpool, which sought the washers “safeguard” action against rivals Samsung Electronics and LG Electronics after years of anti-dumping cases, saw its shares rise 1.8% in after-hours trade.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/23/trump-imposes-steep-tariffs-on-imported-solar-panels-and-washing-machines

[fedupinmo]

What does it take to be a "large" household washer I wonder?

[sparebulb]

What does it take to be a "large" household washer I wonder?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/the-shutins-working-title-andrew-and-sharon-5n8a5093-copy.jpg?strip=all&w=960

Danke's girlfriend taking a break from pre-treating his skid marks.

[Danke]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/the-shutins-working-title-andrew-and-sharon-5n8a5093-copy.jpg?strip=all&w=960

Danke's girlfriend taking a break from pre-treating his skid marks.

Drew Carey ambushed by a very excited fan on 'The Price Is Right'





https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/drew-carey-ambushed-excited-fan-price-right-201611291.html

[XNavyNuke]

Note the lack of 25 year old journalists reporting that the investigation into washer dumping predates the current Administration.

Jan 10, 2017
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-trade-officials-back-whirlpool-washer-dumping-complaint-1484072650

#trumptriggered

XNN

[r3volution 3.0]

"Dumping" = what the inefficient call competition

[TheCount]

Thank you, government, for protecting me from low prices.


The most fun part is the solar panels. The "American" companies that they are protecting with these tariffs are foreign owned.

[RonZeplin]

~40-50% Whirlpool tax, when you buy a new washing machine. Pay to the government as tariff, or to Whirlpool in the form of a price increase.

http://www.whirlpoolcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/CommunityDay_WhirlpoolEMEA-400x250.png

[Danke]

So how do we respond it other countries subsidizing their industries? They are selling in our markets at below their costs, and sometimes being financed by their governments. Even if they’re not helped by their governments, they are flooding the market at a lost to drive out competitors. And then eventually they will raise the cost. This is what is happening with the ME Airlines, they are surviving by government cash.

[TheCount]

So how do we respond it other countries subsidizing their industries?

That would be a great argument if we didn't subsidize our own industries.

[TheTexan]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/the-shutins-working-title-andrew-and-sharon-5n8a5093-copy.jpg?strip=all&w=960

Danke's girlfriend taking a break from pre-treating his skid marks.

Thats a well-built chair. I wonder where I can buy one.

[XNavyNuke]

Administration policy to devalue the dollar will cost all consumers on the imports that they love so much, but at least this decision won't be labeled a tariff.
https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2018-01-25/is-the-u-s-about-to-weaponize-the-dollar

XNN

[angelatc]

I see it from both sides. One of the best/worst things about getting older is remembering. When they slapped tariffs on imported cars, there was a lot of this hand-wringing. Then Japan started opening plants here. In the South, union-free. Quality of cars got much, much better.

Coupling a tariff with lowering taxes on companies here makes perfect sense.

[oyarde]

So how do we respond it other countries subsidizing their industries? They are selling in our markets at below their costs, and sometimes being financed by their governments. Even if they’re not helped by their governments, they are flooding the market at a lost to drive out competitors. And then eventually they will raise the cost. This is what is happening with the ME Airlines, they are surviving by government cash.

Maine ?

[specsaregood]

So its a tax that is easy to avoid, by simply buying American. eg: wouldn't have affected me as I am happy as can be with my American made maytag washer.

[RonZeplin]

I see it from both sides. One of the best/worst things about getting older is remembering. When they slapped tariffs on imported cars, there was a lot of this hand-wringing. Then Japan started opening plants here. In the South, union-free. Quality of cars got much, much better.

Coupling a tariff with lowering taxes on companies here makes perfect sense.https://griid.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/shame_on_whirlpool_wp.jpg

http://negocios.promexico.gob.mx/images/layout/imgHeader.jpg
Whirlpool, a Key Link in the Appliances Industry (http://negocios.promexico.gob.mx/english/09-2013/art07.html)

Whirlpool began operations in Mexico more than 25 years ago. In that time, the Mexican subsidiary has become a key part of the company worldwide, with exports to the North American, Central American, European and Asian markets.
Whirlpool México exports approximately 80% of its annual production of household appliances to the US and Canadian markets and to countries such as Colombia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Belize, Nicaragua, the Philippines, the United Kingdom, Poland, Sweden, France, Aruba, Jordan and Israel, among others, making it a key part of the firm that has been a sector leader for over a century.

"Several factors make Mexico a relevant and very attractive market for investments. For Whirlpool Mexico, the 'winners' in the country are its geographic location, its talented and highly skilled workforce and its programs or incentives that support innovation and technology development," says Adrián Estrada Montemayor, Legal and Institutional Relations VP at Whirlpool Mexico.

Whirlpool Mexico's history goes back to 1987, when it operated as Vitromatic Comercial. In 2002 it became Whirlpool Mexico, embracing all that a name of such magnitude implies.

Currently, Whirlpool is the leader in refrigerators manufacturing and exports in Mexico, and the second largest producer of other household appliances, such as washing machines and stoves.

The firm has five plants –three in Apodaca, Nuevo León, that produce refrigerators and washing machines, as well as plastic parts for these products, one in Celaya, Guanajuato, that produces compact refrigerators and semiautomatic washing machines and one in Ramos Arizpe, Coahuila, that produces duplex refrigerators– and a workforce of close to 11,000 people.

The line of household appliances manufactured, commercialized and distributed by Whirlpool Mexico includes manual, semiautomatic and automatic washing machines, dryers, freezers, duplex, single-door and compact refrigerators, builtin and free standing stoves, hoods, ovens, free standing and built-in dishwashers, microwaves and air conditioning units.

In addition, the company has three technology centers with 100% Mexican human capital that develop new technologies and products. Whirlpool Mexico is constantly exporting innovative products to the rest of the corporation.

[dannno]

https://griid.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/shame_on_whirlpool_wp.jpg

That website doesn't come up anymore, how old is that sign? Certainly not since they announced Trump won..

[asurfaholic]

Thats a well-built chair. I wonder where I can buy one.

Walmart. That’s the place that all patriotic Texans buy their quality foreign goods

[RonZeplin]

That website doesn't come up anymore, how old is that sign? Certainly not since they announced Trump won..

Yes it does. It's from 2010, but so what? See additional info added above ^^^^ - January 25, 2018

https://griid.org/2010/05/03/whirlpool-president-whitewashes-its-corporate-practices-in-gr-speech/

http://negocios.promexico.gob.mx/images/09-2013/imgArt-07.jpg

Whirlpool worker, in Mexico

[dannno]

but so what?

So they made their move in the beginning of the Obama administration because they knew he would be creating an anti-business environment in the US? As opposed to Trump who is bringing companies back here?

[Swordsmyth]

South Korea launched two World Trade Organization (WTO) cases against the United States in response to U.S. President Donald Trump's decision to impose a set of tariffs on imported solar panels and washing machines (https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/us-shedding-light-trumps-solar-panel-tariffs), Financial Times reported Jan. 25.

https://worldview.stratfor.com/situation-report/south-korea-seoul-launches-wto-cases-against-us-solar-panel-tariffs


Time to leave the WTO.

[phill4paul]

I've got no problem with it.

[oyarde]

I've got no problem with it.

Pretty much like Specs , I am happy with what I bought that was made here .

[specsaregood]

I've got no problem with it.

Even dr. Paul has said tariffs would be his preferred method of taxation since they are constitutional and avoidable.

[phill4paul]

Even dr. Paul has said tariffs would be his preferred method of taxation since they are constitutional and avoidable.

At least this tax is a voluntary tax. I don't have to buy the foreign crap if I don't want to.

[Zippyjuan]

Tariffs on solar panels may help those who make them but will hurt those who sell and install them- making their business costs higher. There are more people in the solar energy industry than in the coal industry today. And if China decides to retaliate with tariffs of their own, other US businesses may also end up being hurt.

[phill4paul]

Tariffs on solar panels may help those who make them but will hurt those who sell and install them- making their business costs higher. There are more people in the solar energy industry than in the coal industry today. And if China decides to retaliate with tariffs of their own, other US businesses may also end up being hurt.

So? It's only for 4 yrs. and rolls back in increments to zero. China has no regulatory burdens. For either it's workers health or environmental concerns. Toxic materials in the manufacture are just dumped in the environment. Coal is used there to create the panels. If Trump hadn't done this the earth would probably die. Unless, of course, American environmentalists are of the "as long as it isn't i my back yard" variety. In the meantime it projects a position of power when it comes to fairer trade negotiation over the next few years.

[specsaregood]

Tariffs on solar panels may help those who make them but will hurt those who sell and install them- making their business costs higher. There are more people in the solar energy industry than in the coal industry today. And if China decides to retaliate with tariffs of their own, other US businesses may also end up being hurt.

And how many of those solar businesses are only profitablebecause of fat tax incentives?

[devil21]

And in response to the tariff, LG will raise prices on washing machines.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-lg-to-raise-washing-machine-prices-tariffs-20180125-story.html

Weaker dollar means all imported goods go up in price. I think a lot of this tariff rhetoric is to hide the cause of price increases (devaluation) by putting forth a "stickin' it to the foreign manufacturer" narrative instead of admitting the dollar is tanking. Some will respond by trying to manufacture here, and that's good, but I fear that manufacturing will start taking on more of an asian appearance here, a la Foxconn.

[sparebulb]

F a bunch of foreign washers and dryers.

They can triple the import tariffs for all I care.

With my awesome technical knowledge and abilities, my '90's vintage Frigidaire machines are going to see another decade or two of service just to spite these sob's.

[devil21]

F a bunch of foreign washers and dryers.

They can triple the import tariffs for all I care.

With my awesome technical knowledge and abilities, my '90's vintage Frigidaire machines are going to see another decade or two of service just to spite these sob's.

Older appliance repair will be a growth industry. The days of cheap foreign appliances to just replace broken ones are dwindling.

[TheTexan]

Older appliance repair will be a growth industry. The days of cheap foreign appliances to just replace broken ones are dwindling.

Hopefully the prices stay the same here, and just working conditions in China get worse.

[r3volution 3.0]

they are flooding the market at a lost to drive out competitors. And then eventually they will raise the cost

That cannot happen in a market. If any company were dumb enough to try this approach (and I don't think any ever has), it would lose a great deal of money driving its competitors out of business, only to find them reappear when it attempts to raise prices. The "dumping" concept is an economic myth. The simpler method of achieving a monopoly is to simply buy out your competitors (though that also doesn't work, for the same reason, as the original Mr. Rockefeller once discovered to his chagrin).


Even dr. Paul has said tariffs would be his preferred method of taxation since they are constitutional and avoidable.

This isn't for revenue. This is a subsidy to politically connected companies.


At least this tax is a voluntary tax. I don't have to buy the foreign crap if I don't want to.

By that logic, the income tax is voluntary (you don't have to earn more than the standard deduction if you don't want to).

[phill4paul]

By that logic, the income tax is voluntary (you don't have to earn more than the standard deduction if you don't want to).

I don't see it. But, if it floats your boat then run with it.

[r3volution 3.0]

I don't see it. But, if it floats your boat then run with it.

It's an exact parallel, not sure how you can't see it...

Taxes aren't voluntary just because it's possible to avoid them by giving up doing things you want to do.

Likewise with any other law.

Would a law sentencing potheads to death be voluntary just because you can avoid it by not smoking pot?

I think not...

[phill4paul]

It's an exact parallel, not sure how you can't see it...

Taxes aren't voluntary just because it's possible to avoid them by giving up doing things you want to do.

Likewise with any other law.

Would a law sentencing potheads to death be voluntary just because you can avoid it by not smoking pot?

I think not...

It's a voluntary tax for me. Your mileage may vary.

[nikcers]

It's a voluntary tax for me. Your mileage may vary.
How do you purchase imported solar panels without paying the tax? Maybe we can start a business venture...

[phill4paul]

How do you purchase imported solar panels without paying the tax? Maybe we can start a business venture...

I'm not buying any imported solar panels. So......

[nikcers]

I'm not buying any imported solar panels. So......

So you're not, not being taxed for buying imported solar panels?

[phill4paul]

So you're not, not being taxed for buying imported solar panels?

I, honestly, just don't care. If there was a 50% tariff on everything coming into the country I, honestly, would not care. Tariffs are imposed to create a level playing field against foreign enterprises which, through whatever means they choose, hurt American businesses and their workers. I know Austrian economists and libertarians just love a global market. But, it is not a "free market" when foreign countries use their power to subvert honest trade by destroying the working base of another country. That is where "fair trade" comes in. Offsets are made to balance the whole. I for one am happy to see a president actually use tariffs as a means to force negotiations and deal with them from a position of power. Much better than Obama's declaration that manufacturing jobs are gone and they aren't coming back. So get use to it.

[nikcers]

I for one am happy to see a president actually use tariffs as a means to force negotiations and deal with them from a position of power. Much better than Obama's declaration that manufacturing jobs are gone and they aren't coming back. So get use to it.

Obama did the same thing on Chinese steel this is more of the SAME

[phill4paul]

Obama did the same thing on Chinese steel this is more of the SAME

He did the same thing with solar panels. So?

[Ender]

Ron Paul on tariffs and trade wars:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNwUzStpoog

[nikcers]

Ron Paul discusses how cheap imports are good for the economy in this episode of Mythbusters Liberty Report!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOkD7AuITdY


This is actually more of a subsidy for fossil fuels, all this will do is give more money to the fossil fuel industry rather then have competition in the marketplace.

[invisible]

I, honestly, just don't care. If there was a 50% tariff on everything coming into the country I, honestly, would not care. Tariffs are imposed to create a level playing field against foreign enterprises which, through whatever means they choose, hurt American businesses and their workers. I know Austrian economists and libertarians just love a global market. But, it is not a "free market" when foreign countries use their power to subvert honest trade by destroying the working base of another country. That is where "fair trade" comes in. Offsets are made to balance the whole. I for one am happy to see a president actually use tariffs as a means to force negotiations and deal with them from a position of power. Much better than Obama's declaration that manufacturing jobs are gone and they aren't coming back. So get use to it.

I can't ever remember disagreeing with you before, but on this one, I do. If this had anything to do with leveling the playing field and bringing back jobs, then these tariffs would not be aimed at two very narrow products or industries, and would not be so high. If this was truly the goal, then why not lower and more broad tariffs on ALL of the imported junk sold at walmart? Why not cars? Why not tv sets? Do you really think that US companies are going to suddenly start making such a popular and in-demand product such as solar panels? Or that non-tariff'ed washing machine makers are not going to simply raise their prices to match the tariff'ed products? Make no mistake, this is nothing more than more corporate welfare, and trying to pick winners and losers in the marketplace.

[sparebulb]

I can't ever remember disagreeing with you before, but on this one, I do. If this had anything to do with leveling the playing field and bringing back jobs, then these tariffs would not be aimed at two very narrow products or industries, and would not be so high. If this was truly the goal, then why not lower and more broad tariffs on ALL of the imported junk sold at walmart? Why not cars? Why not tv sets? Do you really think that US companies are going to suddenly start making such a popular and in-demand product such as solar panels? Or that non-tariff'ed washing machine makers are not going to simply raise their prices to match the tariff'ed products? Make no mistake, this is nothing more than more corporate welfare, and trying to pick winners and losers in the marketplace.

This^^^^^^^^^

[Danke]

That cannot happen in a market. If any company were dumb enough to try this approach (and I don't think any ever has), it would lose a great deal of money driving its competitors out of business, only to find them reappear when it attempts to raise prices. The "dumping" concept is an economic myth. The simpler method of achieving a monopoly is to simply buy out your competitors (though that also doesn't work, for the same reason, as the original Mr. Rockefeller once discovered to his chagrin).



This isn't for revenue. This is a subsidy to politically connected companies.



By that logic, the income tax is voluntary (you don't have to earn more than the standard deduction if you don't want to).


It has and is happening.

Rockefeller just split up Standard oil, he still was in charge of the other companies.

“The Supreme Court justices concluded that to restore competition in the oil industry, the Standard Oil Trust would have to be broken into independent companies. But the government permitted Standard Oil stockholders to each receive fractional shares in all 34 companies that were formed. This meant that each of these companies had exactly the same stockholder owners. These companies were then supposed to compete with one another. In reality, the companies had little real incentive to do this and acted together in setting prices for a decade or more.Following new petroleum discoveries in the United States and abroad, independent oil companies finally brought real competition to the industry. But the former Standard Oil companies, with modern names like Exxon, Mobil, Amoco, Chevron, ARCO, Conoco, and Sohio, continued to exercise significant influence on oil pricing”

[nikcers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5BsyXVJJIw

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/25/al-gore-defends-trump-says-hes-not-to-blame-for-tariffs-on-solar-panels.html


Al Gore defends Trump, says he's not to blame for tariffs on solar panels

Former Vice President Al Gore, by his own admission, does not make a habit of defending President Donald Trump.

The U.S. president approved controversial tariffs on imported washing machines and solar cells on Monday. The move, which is aligned to Trump's "America First" stance on trade, aims to protect domestic manufacturers from foreign competitors.

"I don't typically defend him," Gore said during a panel discussion at the World Economic Forum in Davos on Wednesday.

"(But) I will say in this case it really did not start with him. This was a trade action brought by private companies. They chose a kind of midpoint in the range of alternatives ... It could have been handled differently, should have been handled differently but it's not an utter catastrophe," he added.

US imposed tariffs are an 'overreaction'
The U.S. will impose duties of up to 30 percent on solar equipment made around the world, in a move which prompted outcry from China and South Korea — two primary targets of the measure. Some U.S. businesses which rely on imported products have also expressed concern with the decision.

The U.S. International Trade Commission had recommended a 35 percent tariff in 2017, after receiving complaints by two solar panel manufacturers, Sunvia and SolarWorld. Both firms had long protested cheap Chinese solar imports had undercut the industry.

"The large subsidies from China for exporting solar panels has put some other companies in the world at a disadvantage," Gore added.

Fueled by government subsidies, China is the world's biggest producer of solar panels. And in response to the Trump administration's announcement at the start of the week, Beijing said the move was an "overreaction."

[timosman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVDgVe1yGOg

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/01/22/trumps-30-tariff-imported-solar-panels-may-cost-jobs/1056440001/


Trump's 30% tariff on imported solar panels may cost jobs

The Trump administration slapped a 30% tax on imported solar panels Monday in a move that critics say could slow down a fast-growing industry and kill tens of thousands of domestic manufacturing jobs.

The administration's decision followed a trade case brought by two U.S. solar manufacturers. They contended that cheap solar equipment from China and other countries hurt their businesses. Trump had long promised to boost manufacturing jobs by cracking down on Chinese imports.

"The President’s action makes clear again that the Trump Administration will always defend American workers, farmers, ranchers, and businesses," the U.S. Trade Representative, Robert Lighthizer, said in a statement announcing Trump's decision.

But the vast majority of the U.S. solar industry opposed an import tax, saying it would raise the price of solar power and undercut an industry that employs more than 260,000 people, according to the nonprofit Solar Foundation — more people than work in coal or natural gas, two energy sources favored by Trump. About half of U.S. solar jobs are in installation, with others in manufacturing, sales, product development and other sectors.

The Solar Energy Industries Association, a trade group, said Monday that Trump's decision will kill American manufacturing jobs, not create them. The trade group said that of the 38,000 solar manufacturing jobs in the U.S., only 2,000 involve making cells and panels, which are covered by Trump's import tax. The other 36,000 manufacturing jobs involve other equipment used on large solar farms and rooftop solar installations.

The trade group estimated the import tariff would eliminate 23,000 jobs this year.

"There’s no doubt this decision will hurt U.S. manufacturing, not help it," Bill Vietas, president of RBI Solar in Cincinnati, said in a statement released by the trade group. "Government tariffs will increase the cost of solar and depress demand, which will reduce the orders we're getting and cost manufacturing workers their jobs."

[Zippyjuan]

....

Thank you for your informative addition to the discussion.

[juleswin]

At least this tax is a voluntary tax. I don't have to buy the foreign crap if I don't want to.

To be fair, unlike real mandatory taxes like Obamacare penalties/taxes, sales tax and income tax are also voluntary. Just don't make any money or buy stuff from others and you will never be made to pay those taxes.

[juleswin]

I can't ever remember disagreeing with you before, but on this one, I do. If this had anything to do with leveling the playing field and bringing back jobs, then these tariffs would not be aimed at two very narrow products or industries, and would not be so high. If this was truly the goal, then why not lower and more broad tariffs on ALL of the imported junk sold at walmart? Why not cars? Why not tv sets? Do you really think that US companies are going to suddenly start making such a popular and in-demand product such as solar panels? Or that non-tariff'ed washing machine makers are not going to simply raise their prices to match the tariff'ed products? Make no mistake, this is nothing more than more corporate welfare, and trying to pick winners and losers in the marketplace.

This ^^^^^^^^^^

[juleswin]

I see it from both sides. One of the best/worst things about getting older is remembering. When they slapped tariffs on imported cars, there was a lot of this hand-wringing. Then Japan started opening plants here. In the South, union-free. Quality of cars got much, much better.

Coupling a tariff with lowering taxes on companies here makes perfect sense.

And here you are cheer-leading a command economy and yet YOU have the guts to accuse ME of being anti free market. SMDH

Btw, during those old times, unions were big and strong with lots of good paying jobs. Cars were high quality because the govt demanded them through regulations, I guess we should also bring back big and strong unions and I would say regulations too but regulations never went away :rolleyes:

[Schifference]

I did not know that any new washing machine was cheap. They seem expensive to me.

Can Whirlpool or other US manufacturers use foreign made parts?

Can Samsung have an assembly plant here and make the product overseas to eliminate the tariff?

What constitutes assembly? Could the washer be shipped here without the computer board installed to eliminate the tariff? Maybe the computer board is simple plug and play and comes in a separate box.

Who will police the illegal alien washers?

Extreme tariffs should be put on all replacement parts for machines already in the country making it not affordable to repair.

[angelatc]

And here you are cheer-leading a command economy and yet YOU have the guts to accuse ME of being anti free market. SMDH

Btw, during those old times, unions were big and strong with lots of good paying jobs. Cars were high quality because the govt demanded them through regulations, I guess we should also bring back big and strong unions and I would say regulations too but regulations never went away :rolleyes:

Notice how I was able to state my opinion without using the word you?

Go away.

[oyarde]

What does it take to be a "large" household washer I wonder?

I was wondering to , probably anything getting close to 4 ?

[oyarde]

It has and is happening.

Rockefeller just split up Standard oil, he still was in charge of the other companies.

“The Supreme Court justices concluded that to restore competition in the oil industry, the Standard Oil Trust would have to be broken into independent companies. But the government permitted Standard Oil stockholders to each receive fractional shares in all 34 companies that were formed. This meant that each of these companies had exactly the same stockholder owners. These companies were then supposed to compete with one another. In reality, the companies had little real incentive to do this and acted together in setting prices for a decade or more.Following new petroleum discoveries in the United States and abroad, independent oil companies finally brought real competition to the industry. But the former Standard Oil companies, with modern names like Exxon, Mobil, Amoco, Chevron, ARCO, Conoco, and Sohio, continued to exercise significant influence on oil pricing”

I did pretty well on those .

[angelatc]

I, honestly, just don't care. If there was a 50% tariff on everything coming into the country I, honestly, would not care. Tariffs are imposed to create a level playing field against foreign enterprises which, through whatever means they choose, hurt American businesses and their workers. I know Austrian economists and libertarians just love a global market. But, it is not a "free market" when foreign countries use their power to subvert honest trade by destroying the working base of another country. That is where "fair trade" comes in. Offsets are made to balance the whole. I for one am happy to see a president actually use tariffs as a means to force negotiations and deal with them from a position of power. Much better than Obama's declaration that manufacturing jobs are gone and they aren't coming back. So get use to it.

This. +1776

[Jan2017]

I'm not buying any imported solar panels. So......
fwiw . . .
"The United States is the leader in CdTe PV manufacturing" https://www.nrel.gov/pv/cadmium-telluride-solar-cells.html

If this tariff ultimately supports this photovoltaic technology to a greater degree,
then I'll expect more soil contamination from the cadmium eventual disposal.

"Cadmium is an extremely toxic metal which has no known necessary function in the body.
Cadmium toxicity contributes to a large number of health conditions, including the major killer diseases such as heart disease, cancer and diabetes.
Cadmium displaces zinc in many metallo-enzymes.
Cadmium concentrates in the kidney, liver and various other organs and is considered more toxic than either lead or mercury.
It is toxic at levels one tenth that of lead, mercury, aluminum, or nickel."

http://www.arltma.com/Articles/CadmiumToxDoc.htm

[nikcers]

I've heard of supporting Ron Paul but not his ideas on foreign policy but not supporting Ron Paul but not his ideas on fiscal policies. I guess he really did build a coalition.

[juleswin]

Notice how I was able to state my opinion without using the word you?

Go away.

Come on Angelatc, don't play coy with me, unless you are having early onset dementia, you must know that my history with u didn't start in this thread. You have been inferring lately that I do not support the free market and/or I am a communist. Also, you don't have to use the word "you" for you to be accusing me of stuff. There are many ways and words to convey "you" without ever using "you".

Lastly, I will go away but just so everybody knows, angelatc has absolutely nothing to do with my eventual departure from this site. In the mean time, I will try to have constructive and respectful debates with the Trump economic policy supporters in this forum. Which is one of the few fun stuff I do on this site :)

[TheCount]

Going full on Venezuela in this thread.

[nikcers]

Top reasons not to support this.
1. Executive Overreach Pushing the boundary of autocracy
2. Interventionism Maliciously targets foreign competitors inviting blow back
3. Economics People will lose their job, some may go on government aid
4. Taxation ​Theft (come on you were expecting this)

[Krugminator2]

Cars were high quality because the govt demanded them through regulations, I guess we should also bring back big and strong unions and I would say regulations too but regulations never went away :rolleyes:

They were? That was before my time. My sense is the cars were shit and broke down and didn't last long. I remember hearing things like you didn't want to buy a car that was made on a Friday because people started to mail it in by the end of the week. And I remember watching Roger and Me, where laid off union workers weren't able to hack it at Taco Bell, because of the fast pace.

Cars today basically last forever if you take care of them.

[Krugminator2]

If people want to make an argument for tariffs, they should be honest. It is intended to be a subsidy to help uneducated people get higher paying jobs. Okay. Maybe there are pragmatic reasons for that. I can conceive of a pragmatic argument why it might be a good idea. I don't think it will work. I think automation has eliminated most of those jobs. Call it what it is. It is welfare and cronyism.

Tariffs would be a big tax increase for the majority of the country. For example, the average family nationwide saves $2500 because of Wal-Mart. I would bet that number is even higher for me. Like all government subsidies, you will see a small few who benefit greatly while the costs are spread to everyone else. https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/08/11/walmart-destroys-jobs-yes-but-the-benefits-go-to-consumers-not-the-top/#313d750033f6

[phill4paul]

2016:

Exports:

China was the United States' 3rd largest goods export market in 2016.

U.S. goods exports to China in 2016 were $115.8 billion.

Imports:

China was the United States' largest supplier of goods imports in 2016.

U.S. goods imports from China totaled $462.8 billion in 2016.

U.S. goods to China make up 8% of overall exports. Chinese exports to America make up 20% of overall exports.

The Chinese know they are getting a good deal. You won't see a trade war as it will hurt them more than us.

[nikcers]

2016:

Exports:

China was the United States' 3rd largest goods export market in 2016.

U.S. goods exports to China in 2016 were $115.8 billion.

Imports:

China was the United States' largest supplier of goods imports in 2016.

U.S. goods imports from China totaled $462.8 billion in 2016.

U.S. goods to China make up 8% of overall exports. Chinese exports to America make up 20% of overall exports.

The Chinese know they are getting a good deal. You won't see a trade war as it will hurt them more than us.
Yeah sometimes I wish I could go back to 2016.

[phill4paul]

Yeah sometimes I wish I could go back to 2016.

Why? Tariffs were in place then. The Obama admin placed a 31% tariff on solar panels in 2014, but I didn't see everyone going ape-shit then.

[Krugminator2]

2016:

The Chinese know they are getting a good deal.

Who are the Chinese? You act like this is competition between China and the US. Trade isn't a competition. It isn't the government of China negotiating with the US to sell products. Chinese entrepreneurs make a product and American businessman buy it and sell it. If Chinese businessmen weren't getting something useful in return, they wouldn't trade with American businessmen. And vice versa. Nobody is being ripped off. Trade is win-win.

Any trade barrier causes damage to the overall well-being of both countries. The US can't control Chinese policy. The US can control US policy. The only logical answer is unilateral free trade.

[nikcers]

Why? Tariffs were in place then. The Obama admin placed a 31% tariff on solar panels in 2014, but I didn't see everyone going ape-$#@! then.
There was no opposition to Obama? WTF do you think the tea party was?

[phill4paul]

Who are the Chinese? You act like this is competition between China and the US. Trade isn't a competition. It isn't the government of China negotiating with the US to sell products. Chinese entrepreneurs make a product and American businessman buy it and sell it. If Chinese businessmen weren't getting something useful in return, they wouldn't trade with American businessmen. And vice versa. Nobody is being ripped off. Trade is win-win.

Any trade barrier causes damage to the overall well-being of both countries. The US can't control Chinese policy. The US can control US policy. The only logical answer is unilateral free trade.

You act as if Chinese companies act outside of government controls or lack thereof and American companies act outside of government controls or lack thereof. That it is just individual business' honestly and openly trading with each other. I'm going to let you in on a little secret. It isn't that way here in real life.

[phill4paul]

There was no opposition to Obama? WTF do you think the tea party was?

I meant here, or among liberals on other social media. I don't recall the Tea Party being anti-tariff. So if you can cite some examples of this it would be appreciated.

[oyarde]

They were? That was before my time. My sense is the cars were shit and broke down and didn't last long. I remember hearing things like you didn't want to buy a car that was made on a Friday because people started to mail it in by the end of the week. And I remember watching Roger and Me, where laid off union workers weren't able to hack it at Taco Bell, because of the fast pace.

Cars today basically last forever if you take care of them.

By today's standards , everything except the bodies and chrome were shit ( engines , transmissions , starters , batteries , generators ) , but they looked a lot cooler .

[TheCount]

Why? Tariffs were in place then. The Obama admin placed a 31% tariff on solar panels in 2014, but I didn't see everyone going ape-shit then.
Did you go around praising Obama for his worker and business-friendly policies?

[phill4paul]

Did you go around praising Obama for his worker and business-friendly policies?

I dunno. Why don't you google it?

[Danke]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?517965-Which-is-worse-Obama-s-support-for-progressive-taxation-or-Trump-s-support-for-tariffs&p=6567439&viewfull=1#post6567439

[TheCount]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?517965-Which-is-worse-Obama-s-support-for-progressive-taxation-or-Trump-s-support-for-tariffs&p=6567439&viewfull=1#post6567439

As mentioned earlier in the thread, these tariffs are designed to dictate behavior, like a sin tax, and not to generate revenue. They also will not be replacing any other tax. This is not an either or proposition.

[juleswin]

They were? That was before my time. My sense is the cars were $#@! and broke down and didn't last long. I remember hearing things like you didn't want to buy a car that was made on a Friday because people started to mail it in by the end of the week. And I remember watching Roger and Me, where laid off union workers weren't able to hack it at Taco Bell, because of the fast pace.

Cars today basically last forever if you take care of them.

My point exactly, quality were relatively higher when govt started regulating the car industry and just look at it now. Like you said, cars do last forever if you take good care of it.

You argued my point without even realizing it :)

[Danke]

My point exactly, quality were relatively higher when govt started regulating the car industry and just look at it now. Like you said, cars do last forever if you take good care of it.

You argued my point without even realizing it :)


Cars do not last forever in Minnesota. Too much shit they pour on the road for snow and ice that eventually rusts out the cars.

[juleswin]

Cars do not last forever in Minnesota. Too much $#@! they pour on the road for snow and ice that eventually rusts out the cars.

Take your car to the damn car wash you cheap SOB. Maybe you would have more money to take care of your car if you didn't give it all to Stefan and Alex Jones :)

[Danke]

Take your car to the damn car wash you cheap SOB. Maybe you would have more money to take care of your car if you didn't give it all to Stefan and Alex Jones :)

That would be like every day here. And the windows and doors will be frozen shut.


And leave my mother out of it.

[angelatc]

Come on Angelatc, don't play coy with me, unless you are having early onset dementia, you must know that my history with u didn't start in this thread. You have been inferring lately that I do not support the free market and/or I am a communist. Also, you don't have to use the word "you" for you to be accusing me of stuff. There are many ways and words to convey "you" without ever using "you".

Lastly, I will go away but just so everybody knows, angelatc has absolutely nothing to do with my eventual departure from this site. In the mean time, I will try to have constructive and respectful debates with the Trump economic policy supporters in this forum. Which is one of the few fun stuff I do on this site :)

A great man once said you can get a lot done if you don't care who gets the credit.

[oyarde]

Danke should get a girlfriend and let her wash his car and dishes .

[Danke]

Danke should get a girlfriend and let her wash his car and dishes .

An Injun or Nigerian would be cheaper.

[angelatc]

My point exactly, quality were relatively higher when govt started regulating the car industry and just look at it now. Like you said, cars do last forever if you take good care of it.

You argued my point without even realizing it :)

So you think government regulations improved quality, while the rest of the world seems to believe it was the increased competition. (http://www.autonews.com/article/19960626/ANA/606260804/in-80s-poor-quality-tripped-the-big-3%3B-then-they-got-their-act) (AFAIK, the government only regulates fuel economy and safety. Not quality.)

We literally produced cars that had radios that would shut off when the lights were turned on. The avarage AMerican car had 10 problems, while the Japanese cars had 1.2.

Government's solution was to protect the unions and put tariffs on imported cars. The market responded by opening plants here. Tariffs created better cars and more jobs.

[oyarde]

An Injun or Nigerian would be cheaper.

Do avg . nigerians have cars up there ? Or do they just drive taxis like somalians ?

[Danke]

Do avg . nigerians have cars up there ? Or do they just drive taxis like somalians ?


Only the ones they steal.

[angelatc]

By today's standards , everything except the bodies and chrome were shit ( engines , transmissions , starters , batteries , generators ) , but they looked a lot cooler .

https://www.uh.edu/engines/3063-plymouthvolare.png

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/CC-108-116-800.jpg

[juleswin]

That would be like every day here. And the windows and doors will be frozen shut.


And leave my mother out of it.

I know I am taking this a wee bit too far but correct me if I am wrong, you are not married, you don't have kids and you make good money playing top gun and yet you do not have a garage to warm your car in? Come on Danke, be the man you were meant to be and make mama Danke proud.

Please, quit donating to those "alt" media personalities, they both have enough money to buy multiple mansions with multiple garages and here you are having to park your car on the street.

A wise man once said
"Its not selfish to love thyself, take care of thyself, and to make ones happiness a priority."

[juleswin]

A great man once said you can get a lot done if you don't care who gets the credit.

I hate to break this to you but I am completely impervious to mind tricks especially reverse psychology. I know you are trying your darn hardest to get me to stay but I have made up my mind and no amount of mind tricks from you or anyone would change my mind. Sorry, angelatc but your beloved Nigerian liberty supporter is moving on from politics :)

If it makes you feel any better, I would miss you too.

[juleswin]

So you think government regulations improved quality, while the rest of the world seems to believe it was the increased competition. (http://www.autonews.com/article/19960626/ANA/606260804/in-80s-poor-quality-tripped-the-big-3%3B-then-they-got-their-act) (AFAIK, the government only regulates fuel economy and safety. Not quality.)

We literally produced cars that had radios that would shut off when the lights were turned on. The avarage AMerican car had 10 problems, while the Japanese cars had 1.2.

Government's solution was to protect the unions and put tariffs on imported cars. The market responded by opening plants here. Tariffs created better cars and more jobs.

I am working on a reply for this post. Reading up on the Japanese govt relationship/regulation of Toyota and Honda. I am not exactly saying that it was all govt but govt regulation has contributed to lifting the minimum standard of cars being supplied to the market in the US. That cannot be denied.

Btw, I think Japanese govt was more fascist than free market(was Top down, command economies with big govt protecting and sometimes financing it).

[Danke]

I know I am taking this a wee bit too far but correct me if I am wrong, you are not married, you don't have kids and you make good money playing top gun and yet you do not have a garage to warm your car in? Come on Danke, be the man you were meant to be and make mama Danke proud.

Please, quit donating to those "alt" media personalities, they both have enough money to buy multiple mansions with multiple garages and here you are having to park your car on the street.

A wise man once said
"Its not selfish to love thyself, take care of thyself, and to make ones happiness a priority."

so let me get this...I must live within a block from a car wash that does the undercarriage too after every time I drive home, and can park in a heated garage?



I think the better solution would be to just lease cars and exchange them for new ones every few years than go to the cars wash all the time.

[Swordsmyth]

Did you go around praising Obama for his worker and business-friendly policies?

I'm sure you did, if not here then in your real life.

[Swordsmyth]

My point exactly, quality were relatively higher when govt started regulating the car industry and just look at it now. Like you said, cars do last forever if you take good care of it.

You argued my point without even realizing it :)

Get lost commie, the only reason we don't have scores or hundreds of car companies competing and innovating is government regulation.

[specsaregood]

so let me get this...I must live within a block form a car wash that dose the undercarriage too after every time I drive home, and can park in a heated garage?


I used to have a garage for a car, but then I put a made in the USA pool/hottub in it instead. much better decision, I can deal with the car being cold for a bit in the morning.

[Swordsmyth]

I hate to break this to you but I am completely impervious to mind tricks especially reverse psychology. I know you are trying your darn hardest to get me to stay but I have made up my mind and no amount of mind tricks from you or anyone would change my mind. Sorry, angelatc but your beloved Nigerian liberty supporter is moving on from politics :)

If it makes you feel any better, I would miss you too.

Go back to Africa while you are at it.

[Danke]

I hate to break this to you but I am completely impervious to mind tricks especially reverse psychology. I know you are trying your darn hardest to get me to stay but I have made up my mind and no amount of mind tricks from you or anyone would change my mind. Sorry, angelatc but your beloved Nigerian liberty supporter is moving on from politics :)

If it makes you feel any better, I would miss you too.


You keep saying you are done here, but keep poking your nose in threads to give your two cents.


No “reverse psychology” from me, I hope you stick around.

[timosman]

I hate to break this to you but I am completely impervious to mind tricks especially reverse psychology. I know you are trying your darn hardest to get me to stay but I have made up my mind and no amount of mind tricks from you or anyone would change my mind. Sorry, angelatc but your beloved Nigerian liberty supporter is moving on from politics :)

If it makes you feel any better, I would miss you too.

I support this decision. Another retired revolutionary.:cool:

[timosman]

so let me get this...I must live within a block from a car wash that does the undercarriage too after every time I drive home, and can park in a heated garage?



I think the better solution would be to just lease cars and exchange them for new ones every few years than go to the cars wash all the time.

Car washing should be against the law. Maybe even void warranty. :cool:

[juleswin]

I support this decision. Another retired revolutionary.:cool:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWIaMhciNhE

[juleswin]

Go back to Africa while you are at it.

Come on m8, I said I was from Nigeria, I use every opportunity to remind people here that I am from Nigeria and you said "go back to Africa". Do I have to put it in my sig for you to remember that?

Yes, the plan is and has always been to get an education and go back home and I am working on it. Details of the plan has changed a little but the goal is still to find my way home.

[dean.engelhardt]

Going full on Venezuela in this thread.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TheCount again.

[Swordsmyth]

Come on m8, I said I was from Nigeria, I use every opportunity to remind people here that I am from Nigeria and you said "go back to Africa". Do I have to put it in my sig for you to remember that?

Yes, the plan is and has always been to get an education and go back home and I am working on it. Details of the plan has changed a little but the goal is still to find my way home.

Nigeria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria)
The Federal Republic of Nigeria, commonly referred to as Nigeria, is a federal republic in West Africa, bordering Benin in the west, Chad and Cameroon in the east, and Niger in the north. Its coast in the south lies on the Gulf of Guinea in the Atlantic Ocean. It comprises 36 states and the Federal Capital Territory, where the capital, Abuja is located. Nigeria is officially a democratic secular country.More at Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria)

[undergroundrr]

F a bunch of foreign washers and dryers.

They can triple the import tariffs for all I care.



I, honestly, just don't care. If there was a 50% tariff on everything coming into the country I, honestly, would not care. Tariffs are imposed to create a level playing field against foreign enterprises which, through whatever means they choose, hurt American businesses and their workers. I know Austrian economists and libertarians just love a global market. But, it is not a "free market" when foreign countries use their power to subvert honest trade by destroying the working base of another country. That is where "fair trade" comes in. Offsets are made to balance the whole. I for one am happy to see a president actually use tariffs as a means to force negotiations and deal with them from a position of power. Much better than Obama's declaration that manufacturing jobs are gone and they aren't coming back. So get use to it.


This. +1776

Y'all might as well respond to Ron Paul himself. This is from the video ender posted above:

"If you did have a tariff, and they're legal under the constitution, they should never be punitive and picking certain products and certain companies to punish. It should be very uniform and very small if at all. I think it will not create jobs... It's been very well known that tariffs lead to trade wars. There's retaliations. Theres no net benefits from it... Taxes are bad. Taxes on imports are bad. If you do that, you're actually punishing our consumers, and our consumers should have the right to buy products wherever they want."

[phill4paul]

Y'all might as well respond to Ron Paul himself. This is from the video ender posted above:

"If you did have a tariff, and they're legal under the constitution, they should never be punitive and picking certain products and certain companies to punish. It should be very uniform and very small if at all. I think it will not create jobs... It's been very well known that tariffs lead to trade wars. There's retaliations. Theres no net benefits from it... Taxes are bad. Taxes on imports are bad. If you do that, you're actually punishing our consumers, and our consumers should have the right to buy products wherever they want."

I'm well aware of Ron Paul's stance. Unfortunately, this is not an Ron Paul administration. The EPA hasn't been shuttered, nor has Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the federal minimum wage is still enforced as are the millions of fatwahs that hamper our businesses and keep them from being competitive.
So, in the meantime I, honestly, don't give a shit if a few tariffs are thrown around. At the end of the day they are not anything of consequence and fade out over 4 yrs.

[kcchiefs6465]

I, honestly, just don't care. If there was a 50% tariff on everything coming into the country I, honestly, would not care. Tariffs are imposed to create a level playing field against foreign enterprises which, through whatever means they choose, hurt American businesses and their workers. I know Austrian economists and libertarians just love a global market. But, it is not a "free market" when foreign countries use their power to subvert honest trade by destroying the working base of another country. That is where "fair trade" comes in. Offsets are made to balance the whole. I for one am happy to see a president actually use tariffs as a means to force negotiations and deal with them from a position of power. Much better than Obama's declaration that manufacturing jobs are gone and they aren't coming back. So get use to it.
Why would it not make sense that the area best suited to most efficiently produce a given item or service ought to be the one to do it?

Should all markets have government created quotas, wage controls, and artificial obstacles to entry? If not, why not?

Should trade be 'fair' across the United States with Oklahoma and Maine growing oranges to make trade 'fair?' If a given region has a natural advantage, ought Congress make trade 'even?'

[undergroundrr]

I'm well aware of Ron Paul's stance. Unfortunately, this is not an Ron Paul administration. The EPA hasn't been shuttered, nor has Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the federal minimum wage is still enforced as are the millions of fatwahs that hamper our businesses and keep them from being competitive.
So, in the meantime I, honestly, don't give a $#@! if a few tariffs are thrown around. At the end of the day they are not anything of consequence and fade out over 4 yrs.


I don't remember Dr. Paul prefacing all that with "after the EPA, OSHA and federal minimum wage and all the bad government policies have been abolished." For myself, I'll take his wisdom on trade above trump's Marxist protectionism all day long.

[phill4paul]

Why would it not make sense that the area best suited to most efficiently produce a given item or service ought to be the one to do it?

Should all markets have government created quotas, wage controls, and artificial obstacles to entry? If not, why not?

Should trade be 'fair' across the United States with Oklahoma and Maine growing oranges to make trade 'fair?' If a given region has a natural advantage, ought Congress make trade 'even?'

The most suitable market would be the one with the lowest standard of wages, no environmental controls and lack of government fatwahs from a million different offices.
So, since that isn't going to happen here in America anytime soon, I just don't give a rip if a 50% tariff across the board is introduced. liberterians may not be fine with the hamstringing our government places on businesses, but they damn sure don't care that foreign countries allow their companies to forgo these things and "dump" products in an effort to destroy American manufacturing. We have a 300+billion trade deficit with China. We buy on a ratio of 3-to-1. Ours is a consumer market. Foreign businesses will not quit doing businesses with us over a tariff. There is too much profit doing business in America.

[phill4paul]

I don't remember Dr. Paul prefacing all that with "after the EPA, OSHA and federal minimum wage and all the bad government policies have been abolished." For myself, I'll take his wisdom on trade above trump's Marxist protectionism all day long.

Well, then I suppose myself and the libertarians will have to disagree on this one. Other countries have been exploiting our weaknesses for far too long and have ended up making America a welfare state. I've seen what that has done economically in my region over my lifetime, decades. From a strong middle-class based economy to a service economy, a growing heroin problem and the crime that comes from it, from those that see no way out from any employment that allows them to just get by..with a little help from welfare.

[Swordsmyth]

Well, then I suppose myself and the libertarians will have to disagree on this one. Other countries have been exploiting our weaknesses for far too long and have ended up making America a welfare state. I've seen what that has done economically in my region over my lifetime, decades. From a strong middle-class based economy to a service economy, a growing heroin problem and the crime that comes from it, from those that see no way out from any employment that allows them to just get by..with a little help from welfare.

Not to mention what it does to our politics to have so many people on welfare.

By the way since you support tariffs you should support controlled immigration, bringing in hordes of excess labor willing and able to work under the table has the same effect on America as outsourcing.

[phill4paul]

Not to mention what it does to our politics to have so many people on welfare.

By the way since you support tariffs you should support controlled immigration, bringing in hordes of excess labor willing and able to work under the table has the same effect on America as outsourcing.

One does not follow the other. I have no problem with anyone willing to work. That is what I am talking about here. Putting people to work. I work exclusively under the table.

[undergroundrr]

Well, then I suppose myself and the libertarians will have to disagree on this one. Other countries have been exploiting our weaknesses for far too long and have ended up making America a welfare state. I've seen what that has done economically in my region over my lifetime, decades. From a strong middle-class based economy to a service economy, a growing heroin problem and the crime that comes from it, from those that see no way out from any employment that allows them to just get by..with a little help from welfare.

You can't blame all that on foreign governments. For heaven's sake, read your own sig.

[kcchiefs6465]

The most suitable market would be the one with the lowest standard of wages, no environmental controls and lack of government fatwahs from a million different offices.
So, since that isn't going to happen here in America anytime soon, I just don't give a rip if a 50% tariff across the board is introduced. liberterians may not be fine with the hamstringing our government places on businesses, but they damn sure don't care that foreign countries allow their companies to forgo these things and "dump" products in an effort to destroy American manufacturing. We have a 300+billion trade deficit with China. We buy on a ratio of 3-to-1. Ours is a consumer market. Foreign businesses will not quit doing businesses with us over a tariff. There is too much profit doing business in America.
America should quit printing and devaluing the dollar, propping up artificial industry, and choosing winners and losers.

Seems to me that America, as a whole, has lived beyond its means. Credit driven while pimping its fraudulant debt onto the world. There will be a correction.

The solution is not tariffs. Tariffs will be political, costly, and inefficient in bringing reform to an admittedly already bastardized and broken system of crony capitalism.

I'm not trying to sound condescending.... Check out Ecomonic Sophisms by Bastiat. Even if you don't agree it's a short and interesting read.

[Swordsmyth]

One does not follow the other. I have no problem with anyone willing to work. That is what I am talking about here. Putting people to work. I work exclusively under the table.

Whether the labor pool is expanded with people unburdened by regulations here or overseas doesn't make any difference, the result is lower pay, greater corporate profits and more welfare followed by more socialism in our politics, of course there is one difference:

If you bring the foreign workers here they add to the Demoncrats voter pool and things get worse faster.

[phill4paul]

You can't blame all that on foreign governments. For heaven's sake, read your own sig.

In no way have I put all the blame on foreign governments. In fact in an earlier post I specifically mentioned the reasons why American companies can't compete in the world market against foreign competition and why tariffs level the playing field in this regard.

[phill4paul]

Whether the labor pool is expanded with people unburdened by regulations here or overseas doesn't make any difference, the result is lower pay, greater corporate profits and more welfare followed by more socialism in our politics, of course there is one difference:

If you bring the foreign workers here they add to the Demoncrats voter pool and things get worse faster.

Oh, no, I think everyone here should be unburdened by regulation. I think you will see business flourish. When that happens you will see wages rise in an attempt to attract more workers. Regulation, you see, is the problem.

[Swordsmyth]

Oh, no, I think everyone here should be unburdened by regulation. I think you will see business flourish. When that happens you will see wages rise in an attempt to attract more workers. Regulation, you see, is the problem.

You aren't applying the same logic you used on tariffs.

[undergroundrr]

You aren't applying the same logic you used on tariffs.

I actually agree with you here.

[phill4paul]

America should quit printing and devaluing the dollar, propping up artificial industry, and choosing winners and losers.

Seems to me that America, as a whole, has lived beyond its means. Credit driven while pimping its fraudulant debt onto the world. There will be a correction.

The solution is not tariffs. Tariffs will be political, costly, and inefficient in bringing reform to an admittedly already bastardized and broken system of crony capitalism.

I'm not trying to sound condescending.... Check out Ecomonic Sophisms by Bastiat. Even if you don't agree it's a short and interesting read.

I've read Bastiat. Cut me some slack, I have been on these forums for a decade now. ;) But, Bastiat does not live in America 2018. I'm well aware of the devaluation of a fiat currency. No, the solution, is not tariffs. But, at this point they won't hurt. They really won't. China will not start a trade war. Honestly, America could impose a 20% across the board tariff and it would be business as usual. It sounds like you have given up and are just waiting for the inevitable collapse. Well, so have I. So I don't give a shit if solar panels are slapped with a 30% tariff, a lower tariff than Obama imposed in 2014 (and that didn't seem to hurt the business of installation), that reduces and disappears in 4 yrs. People are going ape shit over a big...nothing.

[phill4paul]

You aren't applying the same logic you used on tariffs.


I actually agree with you here.

No, you both are trying to create a big "gotcha", but for different reasons, that doesn't exist.

[phill4paul]

And for those saying companies are not countries here is an article. You see the Chinese manufacturing was bolstered by government subsidies. $42 billion in loans. Not only that but the Obama administration thought it was a good thing to subsidies installation. Isn't the free market wonderful. We'll just all trade freely without governments interfering. It'll be a wonderful libertarian free trade world! Here's what happened the last time a 30% tariff was placed on panels in 2012. Hint: It wasn't an apocalypse.


WHY MILLIONS OF CHINESE-MADE SOLAR PANELS SAT UNUSED IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA WAREHOUSES FOR YEARS

A panic over renewable energy and billions in subsidies turned the world’s biggest carbon emitter into the world’s largest solar panel maker nearly overnight—but that doesn't mean those panels were put to use.

Between 2011 and 2013, warehouses across Southern California were stuffed with millions upon millions of Chinese-made solar panels. How the panels got here, and what ultimately became of them, is one of the oddities of global trade.

“Chinese solar panels dominated tons of warehouses in Carson,” says Rafael Galante, principal consultant of L.A. Source Consulting, who witnessed the influx of solar modules from China in early 2012. “They were everywhere.”

The story began a few years earlier, with the Chinese government’s growing panic about one of its biggest national threats: lung-clogging air pollution. Chinese officials decided in 2010 that solar power would be the centerpiece of a five-year plan—one of Beijing’s massive centralized planning initiatives. The government worked with the China Development Bank to flood the country’s solar manufacturers with $42 billion in subsidized loans between 2010 and 2012.


The cheap money turned the world’s biggest carbon emitter into the world’s largest solar panel maker nearly overnight. In 2010, China produced enough panels to generate 10,922 megawatts of electricity (about five times the capacity of the Hoover Dam), equivalent to 45 percent of new solar panel production worldwide. By 2012, that had risen to 20,903 megawatts, or 56 percent of total global production. As Chinese factories churned out panels, prices around the world fell. Between 2009 and 2011, the price of solar panels dropped from $2.79 to $1.59 per watt, pushing many American solar companies into bankruptcy.

“The Chinese are so good at manufacturing at mass quantities that they brought the price of solar panels way down to the point where no one could keep up,” Galante says.

By 2011, American manufacturers had begun to cry foul, complaining that the cheap government loans had given Chinese firms an unfair advantage. They began to lobby Washington to take action, insisting that China had violated the terms of global trade. They wanted the United States to levy tariffs on the cheap imports.

That’s when boatload after boatload of panels began to show up at the Los Angeles and Long Beach ports.

“Many Chinese makers knew the tariffs would be around the corner then, so they flooded American ports with panels,” says Evan Fu, CEO of Energo Solar, a solar installer based in Los Angeles. By November 2011, Chinese panel imports had risen 347 percent from the same period a year earlier.

According to data from the Port Import and Export Reporting Service, Changzhou Trina Solar Energy Co. Ltd., a top Chinese solar panel maker, imported 209 percent more in the first half of December in 2011, compared with the same period in 2010. Imports from Suntech Power Holdings Co., Ltd., one of the largest solar manufacturers at the time, were 76 percent higher in November 2011 than they had been a year earlier. Randy Chang, who ran the Los Angeles-based sales office for a Chinese panel manufacturer he preferred not to name, says his company imported hundreds of shipping containers of panels in the beginning of 2012.

Chinese manufacturers stockpiled some of these panels as part of a sales strategy. “Some companies have a sales branch in the U.S and they imported their own panels to make the numbers look nicer,” Chang says.

Others had been requested by U.S. companies—though the companies didn't always have immediate plans to use them. Between 2009 and 2012, the Treasury Department was offering cash grants to companies that developed renewable energy projects in the U.S. To qualify, developers had to first show that they had already laid down money for the first 10 percent of the investment. One of the easiest ways to do that was to purchase solar panels, even if they didn’t have a place to install them yet. Developers would often purchase panels from China simply as a way to unlock the cash from Treasury, Chang says.

The rise in solar panel prices after tariffs meant that companies that had stockpiled panels couldn't always offload them. And it contributed to many of the already-purchased solar panels languishing in storage. Building a solar farm generally takes three to four years, and plenty of hurdles can arise along the way. “Some of the developers might not find the proper land to install panels and some of them might not be approved to connect to the power grid,” Chang says. Many solar farms that had been planned were never built, leaving the unused panels stuck in the warehouses.

The tariffs Chinese manufacturers feared came through in May 2012. The U.S. Commerce Department levied tariffs of more than 31 percent on imports of Chinese solar panels, a significant blow to China’s solar makers.

The tariffs shrank the U.S. demand for Chinese panels just as Chinese firms’ manufacturing capacity was becoming dependent on foreign markets. More than 90 percent of panels made in China were exported abroad, rather than being installed within the country, according to a report from China Electricity Council. As exports shrank, the balance sheets of many Chinese companies began to bleed. A number of them went out of business. Suntech Power, based in Wuxi, China, one of the world’s largest solar panel makers with about 11,000 workers, filed for bankruptcy in March 2013.

Panel prices tumbled more, about 35 percent in 2012. “People didn’t know when the bottom would be, so they chose not to buy them,” Chang says.

Chang now was charged with finding new buyers for this massive supply. In order to get rid of the massive stockpile, Chang sold them at 50 to 60 cents per watt, while the market price was 70 to 80 cents.

Even at steep discounts, Chang only sold two to three megawatts worth. “Millions of cheap panels became leftovers in the warehouses,” Chang says. The stockpiling situation didn’t improve, but the technology did.

“As the technology improved, the new panels became more efficient, which makes old panels obsolete very quickly,” says Jonathan Port, CEO of Permacity, a solar installer in Los Angeles.

Where the panels were eventually shipped. (Graphic: Yingzhi Yang)
Where the panels were eventually shipped. (Graphic: Yingzhi Yang)

Installing older, weaker panels is actually more expensive than installing newer ones. Installation fees are tallied on a per-watt basis. Since old panels generate fewer watts than the new ones, workers have to install more of them for each project, which requires more time and labor. "Old panels are like old cars that don’t have leather seats. We don’t want them,” Port says.

In addition, many Chinese companies had gone bankrupt and could no longer guarantee the 25-year warranty, which is standard in the industry. “It’s too big an investment to take the risk to buy panels from a bankrupt company,” Port says.

What happened to the millions of leftover panels? “They were shipped out of the country and sold to the Third World counties,” says Michael Ho, a former employee of Total Transportation Concept Inc., a shipping company based in Los Angeles.

According to Total Transportation Concept data, around 1,100 tons of solar modules, with a capacity equal to roughly 140 megawatts, traveled from the U.S. ports to Africa, Central America, and South America in 2013. Top destinations were ports in Chile, Barbados, and Guatemala.

There is no way to be sure all 140 megawatts of panels were Chinese-made, says James Dearruda, Total Transportation Concept’s chief executive. “But 90 percent are from China transshipping via U.S.A.,” i.e. using the U.S. as a shipping waystation, he adds.

The re-shipment of solar panels made in China from the U.S. to the developing world surged even more in 2014—by 173 percent compared with 2013.

Despite the stiff tariffs from the U.S., including those imposed last year, China keeps rolling out more and more solar panels. In 2013, Chinese manufacturing enterprises made more than 70 percent of world’s solar modules, according to Hanergy Global Renewable Report 2014. But they're no longer piling up in California ports.

https://psmag.com/environment/why-millions-of-chinese-made-solar-panels-sat-unused-in-southern-california-warehouses-for-years

[specsaregood]

And for those saying companies are not countries here is an article. You see the Chinese manufacturing was bolstered by government subsidies. $42 billion in loans. Not only that but the Obama administration thought it was a good thing to subsidies installation. Isn't the free market wonderful. We'll just all trade freely without governments interfering. It'll be a wonderful libertarian free trade world! Here's what happened the last time a 30% tariff was placed on panels in 2012. Hint: It wasn't an apocalypse.



https://psmag.com/environment/why-millions-of-chinese-made-solar-panels-sat-unused-in-southern-california-warehouses-for-years

good info. I wonder how many millions of US tax rebates were given out to homeowners buying Chinese solar panels. So, hurt the states' budgets and send money overseas at the same time... what could go wrong?

[Krugminator2]

And for those saying companies are not countries here is an article. You see the Chinese manufacturing was bolstered by government subsidies. $42 billion in loans.




Subsidies are bad when the US subsidizes production. That steals resources from more productive areas. Subsidies are good if China does it for their businesses. Your assumption seems to be China subsidizing solar panels somehow needs a tariff retaliation

If China builds cheaper solar panels, that is entirely a good thing for the US. Instead of just having solar panels, the US consumer now has solar panels and a couple hundred extra dollars to spend elsewhere. Chinese subsidies have increased (slightly) the overall standard of living in the US. Tariffs lower the standard of living for the average person.

[nikcers]

Subsidies are bad when the US subsidizes production. That steals resources from more productive areas. Subsidies are good if China does it for their businesses. Your assumption seems to be China subsidizing solar panels somehow needs a tariff retaliation

If China builds cheaper solar panels, that is entirely a good thing for the US. Instead of just having solar panels, the US consumer now has solar panels and a couple hundred extra dollars to spend elsewhere. Chinese subsidies have increased (slightly) the overall standard of living in the US. Tariffs lower the standard of living for the average person.

People are convinced that we have to cheat to win because everyone else is. Steroids is a really bad analogy, but if you were to use steroids and sports to compare it to fiscal policy this is like taking poison. People are just becoming stupid, our government has just become too big because fuck conflicts of interest. I am tired of people who don't understand the economy argue bad economics because their industry is getting government cheese. Its a fucking scam, the bank is robbing us all blind.

[Danke]

Subsidies are bad when the US subsidizes production. That steals resources from more productive areas. Subsidies are good if China does it for their businesses. Your assumption seems to be China subsidizing solar panels somehow needs a tariff retaliation

If China builds cheaper solar panels, that is entirely a good thing for the US. Instead of just having solar panels, the US consumer now has solar panels and a couple hundred extra dollars to spend elsewhere. Chinese subsidies have increased (slightly) the overall standard of living in the US. Tariffs lower the standard of living for the average person.


So you are against free markets dictating prices. As long is it’s a foreign government subsidizing it, to benefit in the short term American consumers, it’s OK.

[Krugminator2]

So you are against free markets dictating prices. As long is it’s a foreign government subsidizing it, to benefit in the short term American consumers, it’s OK.

If China wants to have a policy of selling lower cost solar panels to the US, why would the US government have a policy response to that?

It is bad for solar panel makers in the US. But it is good for everyone else. Everyone else gets a standard of living increase. The money people save on solar panels will be spent somewhere in the economy. And the Chinese businesses will buy goods or invest in the US. It is a net win for the people of the US. Whereas the Chinese solar panel makers are producing at the expense of other people in China.

[Danke]

If China wants to have a policy of selling lower cost solar panels to the US, why would the US government have a policy response to that?

It is bad for solar panel makers in the US. But it is good for everyone else. Everyone else gets a standard of living increase. The money people save on solar panels will be spent somewhere in the economy. And the Chinese businesses will buy goods or invest in the US. It is a net win for the people of the US. Whereas the Chinese solar panel makers are producing at the expense of other people in China.


Until they kill the US industries and prices rise.

[juleswin]

So you think government regulations improved quality, while the rest of the world seems to believe it was the increased competition. (http://www.autonews.com/article/19960626/ANA/606260804/in-80s-poor-quality-tripped-the-big-3%3B-then-they-got-their-act) (AFAIK, the government only regulates fuel economy and safety. Not quality.)

We literally produced cars that had radios that would shut off when the lights were turned on. The avarage AMerican car had 10 problems, while the Japanese cars had 1.2.

Government's solution was to protect the unions and put tariffs on imported cars. The market responded by opening plants here. Tariffs created better cars and more jobs.

A combination of laziness and google search not bringing up the articles I am looking for, so my reply has been put on in definitive hold.

[timosman]

Until they kill the US industries and prices rise.

How hard is it to grasp this? :confused:

[nikcers]

How hard is it to grasp this? :confused:
If your industry gets protection you have no incentive to compete for business. How is more protectionlism for fossil fuels going to stop our fossil fuel industry from failing? Are we going to perpetually increase tarrifs? Where does it end? 70%? 90%?

[timosman]

If your industry gets protection you have no incentive to compete for business. How is more protectionlism for fossil fuels going to stop our fossil fuel industry from failing? Are we going to perpetually increase tarrifs? Where does it end? 70%? 90%?

Japan imposes a 778 percent tariff on rice imported outside the minimum access framework and seem to be doin OK.

[nikcers]

Japan imposes a 778 percent tariff on rice imported outside the minimum access framework and seem to be doin OK.
Japan can't even defend themselves from attack, they are not okay they are a dog, I never want to be like that as a nation.

[timosman]

Japan can't even defend themselves from attack, they are not okay they are a dog, I never want to be like that as a nation.

Thread winner. :cool:

[specsaregood]

If your industry gets protection you have no incentive to compete for business. How is more protectionlism for fossil fuels going to stop our fossil fuel industry from failing? Are we going to perpetually increase tarrifs? Where does it end? 70%? 90%?

In much of the US, solar panels are only price-competitive for electricity, if the purchase price is heavily subsidized.

[oyarde]

In much of the US, solar panels are only price-competitive for electricity, if the purchase price is heavily subsidized.

I can buy a house with a few acres here for under 90K if I shop around and get electric for a dime a KWH . No demand for solar panels here . I can drive through three counties without ever seeing one .

[oyarde]

Japan can't even defend themselves from attack, they are not okay they are a dog, I never want to be like that as a nation.

If you think about it . Japan is a borderline shithole country . Everything bad and nothing good .

[phill4paul]

Well this just sucks! Fuck you Trump and your plans to bring back manufacturing on American soil! :rolleyes:


JinkoSolar Signs 1.75 GW Solar Module Supply Agreement in the U.S. and Advances Plans for Construction of Manufacturing Facility in the U.S.

01/29/2018

SHANGHAI, January 29, 2018 / PRNewswire/ - JinkoSolar Holding Co., Ltd. (“JinkoSolar” or the “Company”) (NYSE: JKS), a global leader in the solar PV industry, today announced that its wholly-owned subsidiary, JinkoSolar (U.S.) Inc. (“Jinko U.S.”), has signed a major master solar module supply agreement (the “Master Agreement”) with a U.S. counterparty.

Under the Master Agreement, Jinko U.S. will provide around 1.75 GW of high efficiency solar modules over approximately three years.

“This deal will further solidify our leadership in the U.S. market,” said Mr. Nigel Cockroft, General Manager of Jinko U.S. “An agreement of this magnitude exemplifies JinkoSolar’s commitment to provide our clients with the most reliable products and dependable, regional customer service.”

Concurrently, the Company’s Board of Directors has authorized JinkoSolar to finalize planning for the construction of an advanced solar manufacturing facility in the U.S. JinkoSolar continues to closely monitor treatment of imports of solar cells and modules under the U.S. trade laws.

https://www.jinkosolar.com/press_detail_1419.html?lan=en

[nikcers]

Well this just sucks! $#@! you Trump and your plans to bring back manufacturing on American soil! :rolleyes:



https://www.jinkosolar.com/press_detail_1419.html?lan=en
Are you another phoney alchemist too now?

[kcchiefs6465]

Well this just sucks! Fuck you Trump and your plans to bring back manufacturing on American soil! :rolleyes:



https://www.jinkosolar.com/press_detail_1419.html?lan=en
I think you fail before you even start when you presume it is the president's authority or business to promote jobs creation.

It is a socialist inclination, is it not?

[kcchiefs6465]

And being that you are versed in Bastiat, Phil, I am going to assume you are familiar with that which is seen versus what is not seen.

For instance, the jobs which will not be created because some heavy handed socialist erects obstacles in trade are not easily seen but the jobs 'created' by the heavy handed socialist's policies are easily visible. Indeed they are pimped politically to shore up support for further nationalization of various sectors in the market.

You mentioned that Bastiat's works aren't relevant today as they were written so long ago yet you have failed to realize that this same argument has been regurgitated for centuries... And it will continue to be regurgitated long after we are gone.

[specsaregood]

I think you fail before you even start when you presume it is the president's authority or business to promote jobs creation.
It is a socialist inclination, is it not?

We live in a socialist country, do we not?

[phill4paul]

Are you another phoney alchemist too now?


I think you fail before you even start when you presume it is the president's authority or business to promote jobs creation.

It is a socialist inclination, is it not?

Rip on me all you want. There's nothing more that I would care to see then Americans having the opportunity for gainful employment. As long as his policies and rhetoric continue to increase jobs then I'll support it.

[undergroundrr]

Rip on me all you want. There's nothing more that I would care to see then Americans having the opportunity for gainful employment. As long as his policies and rhetoric continue to increase jobs then I'll support it.

It increased jobs at 1 solar company facility while it raised expenses for consumers of solar panels. Many of those are other companies whose expenses will increase, resulting in less margin that might be used to hire more workers or raise the pay of current ones. For individual consumers who purchase solar panels, it just lowered the value of the dollar.

This is elementary free market stuff. The ONLY way the president can create jobs is by removing the government from the economy to the greatest possible extent. You know this. I have great respect for you and trust that you're just venting about something you're passionate about.

[kcchiefs6465]

We live in a socialist country, do we not?
Yes. And some wish to move away from the current direction of this country towards freedom while most are content with socialism so long as it promotes what they wish to promote (or they feel it promotes what they wish to promote).

Because something is does not mean it should be.

[phill4paul]

And being that you are versed in Bastiat, Phil, I am going to assume you are familiar with that which is seen versus what is not seen.

For instance, the jobs which will not be created because some heavy handed socialist erects obstacles in trade are not easily seen but the jobs 'created' by the heavy handed socialist's policies are easily visible. Indeed they are pimped politically to shore up support for further nationalization of various sectors in the market.

You mentioned that Bastiat's works aren't relevant today as they were written so long ago yet you have failed to realize that this same argument has been regurgitated for centuries... And it will continue to be regurgitated long after we are gone.

No, you misunderstand. I'm not arguing that Bastiat is not relevant today because his views were written so long ago. I'm saying that they are not relevant today because the American political process is so borked. If we could go back to ground zero and rebuild on Bastiat's views that would be great. Swell. Grand. But, unfortunately that is not the case until the FRN hits critical mass. So, in the meantime, I really don't care. In the meantime it provides good jobs, good pay and good benefits to Americans. It gets individuals off of welfare and builds a middle-class. And if that comes from placing foreign tariffs then I'm fine with that.

[undergroundrr]

In the meantime it provides good jobs, good pay and good benefits to Americans

while taking away good jobs, good pay and good benefits from other Americans.


It gets individuals off of welfare and builds a middle-class

while putting other individuals on welfare and demolishing the middle-class.

In a nutshell, you're not acknowledging that with corporatism there's collateral damage and eventually blowback (Antifa, BLM, Occupy, foreign trade wars, etc.), just like in pre-emptive war.

[phill4paul]

It increased jobs at 1 solar company facility while it raised expenses for consumers of solar panels. Many of those are other companies whose expenses will increase, resulting in less margin that might be used to hire more workers or raise the pay of current ones. For individual consumers who purchase solar panels, it just lowered the value of the dollar.

This is elementary free market stuff. The ONLY way the president can create jobs is by removing the government from the economy to the greatest possible extent. You know this. I have great respect for you and trust that you're just venting about something you're passionate about.

Sigh. I'll say this once again. We do not live in a free market. And the belief that this tariff will raise prices and cost jobs has not yet come to fruition. Reference my above article detailing what happened under the Obama admin. tariff. Solar installation still increased, better products were introduced and prices continued to drop.

[phill4paul]

while taking away good jobs, good pay and good benefits from other Americans.



while putting other individuals on welfare and demolishing the middle-class.

In a nutshell, you're not acknowledging that with corporatism there's collateral damage and eventually blowback (Antifa, BLM, Occupy, foreign trade wars, etc.), just like in pre-emptive war.

Again, the cries of doom in the solar industry did not come to fruition when the Obama admin. did the exact same thing.

[kcchiefs6465]

Reference my above article detailing what happened under the Obama admin. tariff. Solar installation still increased, better products were introduced and prices continued to drop.
That which is seen. ^

[invisible]

In much of the US, solar panels are only price-competitive for electricity, if the purchase price is heavily subsidized.

The only reason for this is because of excessive government regulation. Solar panels would be extremely cost-effective, if one did not have to pay a fortune upfront to someone else to install them, only because of the regulatory requirements of permits and licensing (electrician's license) where most people live. This raises the upfront cost beyond what most people can reasonably afford. Take away the requirements for permitting and having an electrician's license, and it becomes very affordable: one can start with a panel or two, a small inverter, a small charge controller, and a small battery bank. Then the system can be gradually expanded and upgraded as finances allow, and it would be possible to reach a point relatively quickly where electric usage no longer had to be rationed. It would be possible to set up a working, practical starter system for well under $1000, compared to something like a $20,000 upfront cost for having a full system installed by a licensed electrician.

[Krugminator2]

Japan imposes a 778 percent tariff on rice imported outside the minimum access framework and seem to be doin OK.

They are????!!

Japan is a perpetual mess that will likely never recover. A good start would be doing the opposite of Japan on everything.

"The term Lost Decade originally referred to the years from 1991 to 2000,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_(Japan)#cite_note-1) but recently the decade from 2001 to 2010 is often included,[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_(Japan)#cite_note-janacra-2) so that the whole period is referred to as the Lost Score or the Lost 20 Years"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_(Japan)

[Swordsmyth]

Riddle me this batman:

What happens when all your manufacturing capacity is moved offshore and you have nothing but a consumer/service economy?
Where do your consumers get the money to buy the things made in foreign countries or pay for the services they provide to one another?
What happens when the foreign countries demand you submit to world government or be embargoed?
How do you ever re-build your manufacturing base if all the technology and skilled and experienced personnel are gone?

[Swordsmyth]

Riddle me this batman:

What happens when all your manufacturing capacity is moved offshore and you have nothing but a consumer/service economy?
Where do your consumers get the money to buy the things made in foreign countries or pay for the services they provide to one another?
What happens when the foreign countries demand you submit to world government or be embargoed?
How do you ever re-build your manufacturing base if all the technology and skilled and experienced personnel are gone?

Politics is war by other means, Geopolitics doubly so.

[Krugminator2]

Riddle me this batman:

1.What happens when all your manufacturing capacity is moved offshore and you have nothing but a consumer/service economy?
2 Where do your consumers get the money to buy the things made in foreign countries or pay for the services they provide to one another?
3 What happens when the foreign countries demand you submit to world government or be embargoed?
4 How do you ever re-build your manufacturing base if all the technology and skilled and experienced personnel are gone?

1. Hong Kong, Singapore, and Switzerland are service economies. How are the people there surviving?
2. Consumers get the money from their jobs? There is infinite work to be done. I don't understand why people have to stitch soccer balls or screw lug nuts for a living.
3. An embargo on the US would be bad for everyone. The US would be the least hurt by whoever did it.
4. And kind of missing from all your concerns is the United States manufactures more now than at any point in the history of the country. It is mostly done with technology. Why would that stop? Manufacturing has been ramped up. Manufacturing jobs have declined because of automation.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/11/16/youre-not-going-to-believe-this-but-us-manufacturing-is-now-bigger-than-ever-before/#183e47c9578d
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-manufacturing-dead-output-has-doubled-in-three-decades-2016-03-28
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-03/manufacturing-in-u-s-accelerates-to-cap-best-year-since-2004

Here is a more accurate reading of the situation. As manufacturing becomes more automated, more manufacturing will be done in the United States. The people who will be most hurt by artificial intelligence will be countries who manufacture stuff cheaply now as their services will be no longer needed.

[Swordsmyth]

1. Hong Kong, Singapore, and Switzerland are service economies. How are the people there surviving?
I'll need to see the numbers to believe that, do they have earth swallowing trade deficits? Or do they have trade surpluses.



2. Consumers get the money from their jobs? There is infinite work to be done. I don't understand why people have to stitch soccer balls or screw lug nuts for a living.
And what happens when all the money is drained out of the economy by the trade deficit? If we print more it will eventually become worthless.


3. An embargo on the US would be bad for everyone. The US would be the least hurt by whoever did it.
Tell that to N.Korea and Venezuela, if we lose all our manufacturing we will be at the mercy of world government.


4. And kind of missing from all your concerns is the United States manufactures more now than at any point in the history of the country. It is mostly done with technology. Why would that stop? Manufacturing has been ramped up. Manufacturing jobs have declined because of automation.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/11/16/youre-not-going-to-believe-this-but-us-manufacturing-is-now-bigger-than-ever-before/#183e47c9578d
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-manufacturing-dead-output-has-doubled-in-three-decades-2016-03-28
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-03/manufacturing-in-u-s-accelerates-to-cap-best-year-since-2004


That's good news but it won't last if we keep letting the Chinese and others destroy our economy.



Here is a more accurate reading of the situation. As manufacturing becomes more automated, more manufacturing will be done in the United States. The people who will be most hurt by artificial intelligence will be countries who manufacture stuff cheaply now as their services will be no longer needed.

Why would automated manufacturing come here if the other countries are willing to subsidize them and we do nothing about it?

[nikcers]

China demands compensation for U.S. solar tariffs: WTO filings




(https://www.twitter.com/intent/tweet?url=https%3A%2F%2Freut.rs%2F2FRDMJN&text=China%20demands%20compensation%20for%20U.S.%2 0solar%20tariffs%3A%20WTO%20filings)GENEVA (Reuters) - China has sent the United States a demand for talks on compensation for steep U.S. tariffs imposed on imported solar panels and washing machines, World Trade Organization filings showed on Tuesday.










China said it was asserting its right as a major exporter to demand compensation, and said it believed the U.S. measures broke numerous WTO rules. China’s move follows similar steps by Taiwan and South Korea.

[timosman]

China demands compensation for U.S. solar tariffs: WTO filings

Trolling has never been an effective negotiation strategy with this administration. Obama is no longer in office. :cool:

[r3volution 3.0]

The monthly trade deficit since 1992

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=iaIO

Detail of Trump's term thus far

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=iaIu

[phill4paul]

The monthly trade deficit since 1992

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=iaIO

Detail of Trump's term thus far

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=iaIu

One year in and Americans are spending more money because of belief in the future. Did you expect the ship to turn on a dime? Before the ship can turn we actually have to start manufacturing again. Small course corrections. Give it a chance and lets see were we are at in 3 more years.

[r3volution 3.0]

One year in and Americans are spending more money because of belief in the future. Did you expect the ship to turn on a dime? Before the ship can turn we actually have to start manufacturing again. Small course corrections. Give it a chance and lets see were we are at in 3 more years.

The fundamental problem is the massive costs which government imposes on producers, and that's not going to be changing anytime soon.

[phill4paul]

The fundamental problem is the massive costs which government imposes on producers, and that's not going to be changing anytime soon.

Those costs are mostly due to regulation. Trump says he's working on cutting regulation back. I guess we'll see by next year.

[r3volution 3.0]

Those costs are mostly due to regulation. Trump says he's working on cutting regulation back. I guess we'll see by next year.

LOL

He's cutting regulations like Obama went through the budget "line by line" (token move for PR purposes).

Sorry phill, nothing's changing in any important respect (for the better anyway) with this POTUS/Congress.

[phill4paul]

LOL

He's cutting regulations like Obama went through the budget "line by line" (token move for PR purposes).

Sorry phill, nothing's changing in any important respect (for the better anyway) with this POTUS/Congress.

We'll see. It is what it is. But, the economy is picking up locally. Plenty of "help wanted" signs. Which weren't there a year ago. Even if it is all just rhetoric it's producing results much better than a "Manufacturing is gone. Get used to it" mindset.

[r3volution 3.0]

We'll see. It is what it is. But, the economy is picking up locally. Plenty of "help wanted" signs. Which weren't there a year ago. Even if it is all just rhetoric it's producing results much better than a "Manufacturing is gone. Get used to it" mindset.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=iaUX

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=iaVh

Economies eventually recover, even in the face of the atrocious policies pursued by Obama and now continued by Trump.

[nikcers]

One year in and Americans are spending more money because of belief in the future. Did you expect the ship to turn on a dime? Before the ship can turn we actually have to start manufacturing again. Small course corrections. Give it a chance and lets see were we are at in 3 more years.
We are manufacturing more bombs then ever, lets see where we are at in 3 more years. The bombs will be HUGE. We will be manufacturing so many bombs, you are going to say, I think we need to start outsourcing some of these bomb manufacturing jobs, we don't have enough people to make the bombs we need.

[TheCount]

Japan imposes a 778 percent tariff on rice imported outside the minimum access framework and seem to be doin OK.
Define 'doin OK' - their central bank is in permanent QE mode, they've resorted to massive government make-work projects, they have the worst national debt of any developed nation, and their economy is stagnant. GDP growth last year was 0.7%

[timosman]

GDP growth last year was 0.7%

They are an island nation w/o immigration. How much do you want the economy to grow? :cool:

[phill4paul]

We are manufacturing more bombs then ever, lets see where we are at in 3 more years. The bombs will be HUGE. We will be manufacturing so many bombs, you are going to say, I think we need to start outsourcing some of these bomb manufacturing jobs, we don't have enough people to make the bombs we need.

Bombs. Bombs. Bombs. OK. "Huge." Have to throw that in. Care to actually back anything with facts. Or fuck it all?

[nikcers]

Bombs. Bombs. Bombs. OK. "Huge." Have to throw that in. Care to actually back anything with facts. Or $#@! it all?
I wish I could give you facts but the Trump administration is censoring the facts. Not only are we dropping the biggest non nuclear bombs we are building more "usable" "tactical" nuclear bombs, because non nuclear bombs weren't good enough.

[phill4paul]

I wish I could give you facts but the Trump administration is censoring the facts. Not only are we dropping the biggest non nuclear bombs we are building more "usable" "tactical" nuclear bombs, because non nuclear bombs weren't good enough.

This thread is about the tariffs. Perhaps start another about the nukes?

[nikcers]

This thread is about the tariffs. Perhaps start another about the nukes?
Someone didn't read the thread title..

[phill4paul]

Someone didn't read the thread title..

Yer mommas a midget.

[nikcers]

Here is the new excuse to raise taxes, and nobody can fight it politically.

“Reciprocal is, if you’ve got a 30 percent tariff, you know what, we should have a 30 percent tariff,”
“I love a reciprocal tax,” the President told Bloomberg last year. “Nobody can fight it. It’s fair and it’s something that we are working on very strongly.” -Trump