Rubio is a "no" on tax plan without increased welfare

[Brian4Liberty]

Rubio to vote against GOP tax bill unless tax credit for working poor is expanded (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/rubio-to-vote-against-gop-tax-bill-unless-tax-credit-for-working-poor-is-expanded/2017/12/14/8be53a22-e0f9-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html)


Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) has informed Senate leaders he intends to vote against the Republicans’ $1.5 trillion tax plan unless it includes a larger expansion of a child tax credit, according to a Senate GOP source.

Rubio and Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) proposed a change to expand the tax credit as part of the tax bill that passed the Senate, but the plan was opposed by GOP leadership and voted down.

Lee is undecided on whether to support the bill, according to a Lee spokesperson.
...
More: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/rubio-to-vote-against-gop-tax-bill-unless-tax-credit-for-working-poor-is-expanded/2017/12/14/8be53a22-e0f9-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html

Rubio and Lee have already demanded and received a doubling of the child tax credit from $1000 to $2000 per child. The issue now appears to be the refundabilty of the "credit".

Bottom line: With a fully refundable tax credit, a parent or family who pay no income taxes will receive a $2000 payment per child per year from the Federal government. Thus, this is a welfare expansion.

[r3volution 3.0]

Based on the reports, it's not clear to me if Lee just wants the additional credit or wants it to be refundable (aka welfare).

If the latter, I am Jack's broken heart...:(

[oyarde]

These guys have lost their minds . The child credit should be eliminated .Left the same at worst . Expanding it is ridiculous . It should have never refunded more tax than was pd in , ever .

[specsaregood]

are they keeping the part that required all the children to have a valid SSN ?

[donnay]

These guys have lost their minds . The child credit should be eliminated .Left the same at worst . Expanding it is ridiculous . It should have never refunded more tax than was pd in , ever .


Totally again. This is an incentive for lazy people.

[donnay]

are they keeping the part that required all the children to have a valid SSN ?

You mean the number that will never be used as identification?

[Superfluous Man]

The child tax credit is definitely welfare.

But if the goal is to lower the tax burden of lower to middle income families with kids, without that reducing to a negative tax rate for any more of them (i.e. doing taxes is positively profitable for them at other taxpayers' expense), then they should be able to accomplish that by lowering the bottom tax rate, raising the income levels for the lower tiers, and increasing the standard deduction and dependent deductions.

Alternatively, they could increase the child tax credit but alter it so that it's not refundable, or not refundable more than a certain amount, so that this only results in people who pay taxes paying less, rather than people who don't pay taxes getting paid more.

[Zippyjuan]

Bill is going to be running about 500 pages (based on length of the Senate proposals). Nobody has any idea what the final merged plan may look like (some rough details have been released but are still being negotiated) but they are hoping to vote on it Monday or Tuesday before anybody gets a chance to actually try to read it so they can declare victory and head home for the holidays. (they have to deal with that budget thing too before they run off- the current extension on it runs out the 22nd).

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/14/mike-pence-delays-israel-trip-295494


The initial tax bill barely squeaked through the senate, getting approved 51-49, with all Democrats and Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) voting against it. But now the administration’s top legislative priority is in a precarious position.

Republican Sens. John McCain of Arizona and Thad Cochran of Mississippi, both of whom supported the Senate version of the tax measure, have missed votes all this week due to medical reasons.

Cochran, whom a spokesman said is recovering from a procedure to deal with a non-melanoma lesion on his nose, can return to the Senate for votes “as needed,” according to his office. McCain is at Walter Reed Medical Center for treatment related to his brain cancer, which he was diagnosed with earlier this year. His office hasn’t said when he would return to the Capitol.

If both McCain and Cochran are absent and no senator switches his or her vote, then Pence would have to break a 49-49 tie.

But Florida Republican Sen. Marco Rubio said Thursday he wouldn’t vote for the bill unless it includes an expanded child tax credit. Other Republicans, including Sen. Susan Collins of Maine, have yet to take a position on the House-Senate compromise, which is slated to be unveiled on Friday.

If Corker is a no again, and McCain a no-show the best they can do in the Senate is a tie and Pence will break it. If Rubio or anybody else votes no, it is dead (or at least delayed again). Once it leaves the reconciliation group, there can't be any changes or it has to go back again to the committee and then again sent to both the House and Senate to vote on it.

[r3volution 3.0]

they have to deal with that budget thing too before they run off- the current extension on it runs out the 22nd

That's the real story for the next couple weeks.

The tax thing gets much more attention but is vastly less important.

[specsaregood]

That's the real story for the next couple weeks.

The tax thing gets much more attention but is vastly less important.

Its not a story at all. Let me end the suspense for you, both sides will happily pass it after cramming enough shit into it to appease their brood. It is more important but its not a story because there will be no real conflict.

[Zippyjuan]

That's the real story for the next couple weeks.

The tax thing gets much more attention but is vastly less important.

I am guessing another extension will be along just in time. I am surprised they didn't make the current extension run until sometime in January.

[r3volution 3.0]

Its not a story at all. Let me end the suspense for you, both sides will happily pass it after cramming enough shit into it to appease their brood.

Of course


It is more important but its not a story because there will be no real conflict.

That was my only point.

[Weston White]

That's the real story for the next couple weeks.

The tax thing gets much more attention but is vastly less important.


NATIONAL DEBT OF UNITED STATES


$20,498,419,920,454

https://i.imgflip.com/151rwi.jpg


FUN FACTS:


You could wrap $1 bills around the Earth 79,794 times with the debt amount!

If you lay $1 bills on top of each other they would make a pile 2,238,633 km, or 1,391,021 miles high!

That's equivalent to 5.82 trips to the Moon!

[Zippyjuan]

They gave Rubio what he wanted. http://www.businessinsider.com/marco-rubio-tax-reform-bill-vote-yes-vote-child-tax-credit-2017-12


Marco Rubio reverses course and gives the GOP a jolt of momentum on their massive tax bill

Sen. Marco Rubio said Friday that he will vote for the Republican tax bill, reversing course roughly 24 hours after threatening to vote against the bill.

Rubio had fought for the child tax credit to be more generous in the final version of the tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA).

The bill, which was finalized by a conference committee made up mostly of members from the House and Senate tax-writing committees, proposes to expand the child tax credit to $2,000 per dependent from the current $1,000. The bill originally capped the amount of the credit that was refundable — and thus available to low-income workers who don't have a tax burden — at $1,100.

Rubio insisted the refundable amount that was refundable, and the tax writers upped the amount to $1,400.

This was apparently enough to satisfy Rubio.



They are supposed to be releasing the merged bill tonight and expect Congress to vote on it as early as Monday- before anybody really has a chance to read it.

[Superfluous Man]

They gave Rubio what he wanted. http://www.businessinsider.com/marco-rubio-tax-reform-bill-vote-yes-vote-child-tax-credit-2017-12



They are supposed to be releasing the merged bill tonight and expect Congress to vote on it as early as Monday- before anybody really has a chance to read it.

The fact that the point of contention was precisely over how much of the tax credit was refundable proves precisely what this thread's title says. Rubio was not trying to cut anyone's taxes. He was solely after more welfare spending. And he got it.

[Zippyjuan]

The fact that the point of contention was precisely over how much of the tax credit was refundable proves precisely what this thread's title says. Rubio was not trying to cut anyone's taxes. He was solely after more welfare spending. And he got it.

He's not the only one.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/politics-government/article188027644.html


Rand Paul, a critic of special interests, comes through for car dealers

WASHINGTON
Sen. Rand Paul, who has decried the influence of special interests in the U.S. tax code, played a leading role in preserving a tax deduction that auto dealers pushed hard to retain.

Under a provision the Kentucky Republican successfully inserted into the GOP tax bill before it cleared the Senate early Saturday morning, dealers could continue to deduct 100 percent of the interest they pay on the loans they take out to buy the vehicles that sit in their showrooms and on their lots.

The original Senate bill had slashed the deduction to 30 percent, though the House bill retained the full deduction on the so-called “floor plan” loans, which are also used by other businesses including boat, RV and motorcycle dealers.

Keeping the deduction at 100 percent was a top priority for the National Automobile Dealers Association, which represents the nation’s nearly 17,000 franchised new car dealers. The group argued that the original Senate bill would have treated dealerships, generally closely-held small businesses, the same as large corporations.

After the vote, the group had strong praise for Paul.

“Senator Paul’s leadership on this issue was critical to ensuring that 100 percent floor plan deductibility was included in the tax bill,” the group said on its website.

It featured a photo of Paul, noting “This amendment, offered by Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., was the top priority for NADA in the Senate tax reform bill.”

As a 2016 Republican presidential hopeful, Paul, who wrote in the Wall Street Journal that he’d repeal the more than 70,000 pages in the IRS tax code and replace it with a 14.5 percent tax on individuals and businesses. He said he’d also “eliminate nearly every special-interest loophole.”

[Superfluous Man]

He's not the only one.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/politics-government/article188027644.html

I'm confused. How does anything in that story support your saying that Rubio is not the only one?

Was there something in there about refundable tax credits? The parts you bolded only mention deductions.

[Zippyjuan]

I'm confused. How does anything in that story support your saying that Rubio is not the only one?

Was there something in there about refundable tax credits? The parts you bolded only mention deductions.

It was about providing welfare/ benefits to a particular group through changes in the tax system. Rand's was not about refunding.

[Superfluous Man]

It was about providing welfare/ benefits to a particular group through changes in the tax system.
Not welfare/benefits, but welfare specifically.


Rand's was not about refunding.
The fact that Rubio's issue was all about refundable credits was the whole point of the quote of mine that you were replying to.

[Danke]

“low-income workers who don't have a tax burden”


if they have income, then they are paying tax. FICA.

and their employer is directly paying half of it in their name, an amount that could have otherwise gone into the employee’s paycheck.

[Krugminator2]

He's not the only one.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/politics-government/article188027644.html


Rubio's tax credit and Rand's interest deduction are not remotely similar. And I am pretty sure you know that. I don't agree with it just like I don't favor being able to deduct mortgage interest. I favor a no deductions and a flat tax. But would you say allowing mortgage interest to be tax deductible is welfare? It is a one for one analogy.

I mean Rothbard and that crew are pretty big on these kinds of deductions. I don't even view it as unprincipled.

[Superfluous Man]

“low-income workers who don't have a tax burden”


if they have income, then they are paying tax. FICA.

and their employer is directly paying half of it in their name, an amount that could have otherwise gone into the employee’s paycheck.




I think that you can file and receive child tax credits even if you're completely unemployed. Can't you?

[Danke]

I think that you can file and receive child tax credits even if you're completely unemployed. Can't you?


Don’t know? Both parents unemployed?

[Krugminator2]

I think that you can file and receive child tax credits even if you're completely unemployed. Can't you?

Yes.

[Superfluous Man]

Don’t know? Both parents unemployed?

I think so. That's part of what the refundable aspect of refundable tax credits means.

[Zippyjuan]

“low-income workers who don't have a tax burden”


if they have income, then they are paying tax. FICA.

and their employer is directly paying half of it in their name, an amount that could have otherwise gone into the employee’s paycheck.



Or stayed in the company owner's pockets.

http://www.purposetopower.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CorpProfitsVsWages_onechart.jpg

[Zippyjuan]

Wow. Now they are saying Corker is on board. I thought he was against it because it added to the debt. That part didn't change. "Vote for something. Anything. We need to get something passed!"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/15/politics/tax-reform-marco-rubio-final-bill/index.html



In addition to Rubio, Sen. Bob Corker, who initially voted against the bill when it first passed the chamber, announced Friday afternoon he'd back the bill.

"After many conversations over the past several days with individuals from both sides of the aisle across Tennessee and around the country -- including business owners, farmers, chambers of commerce and economic development leaders -- I have decided to support the tax reform package we will vote on next week," the Tennessee Republican said in his statement.

[Danke]

Or stayed in the company owner's pockets.

http://www.purposetopower.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CorpProfitsVsWages_onechart.jpg


That’s not how the free market would work.

[Zippyjuan]

That’s not how the free market would work.

In a free market, everybody is out to get as much as they can for themselves. If the company owners can keep the money and avoid giving it in the form of wages, they will. It isn't about "spreading the wealth around".

[oyarde]

He's not the only one.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/politics-government/article188027644.html

I do not look at saving a deduction the same as added welfare .

[Zippyjuan]

I do not look at saving a deduction the same as added welfare .

Corporate welfare vs social welfare. Still welfare.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

In a free market, everybody is out to get as much as they can for themselves. If the company owners can keep the money and avoid giving it in the form of wages, they will. It isn't about "spreading the wealth around".

An employer is not "spreading the wealth around" to just be a good egg. It's a practical transaction. You have to pay good money for good help. There comes a point when low wages results in low work. Also, an employee who is paid really low will seek another employer.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

In a free market, everybody is out to get as much as they can for themselves.


Works the same in a very controlled government market too. That's just human nature.

Progressives like you like to push the secular myth that bigger government somehow eliminates human nature.

[Zippyjuan]

An employer is not "spreading the wealth around" to just be a good egg. It's a practical transaction. You have to pay good money for good help. There comes a point when low wages results in low work. Also, an employee who is paid really low will seek another employer.

They will pay the least they have to in order to attract the labor they want to hire. If a job requires special skills which are in limited supply relative to the openings, wages will be higher. More and more jobs are capable of being done by more and more people as technology makes performing that job easier. That lowers the wages a company needs to pay out. Technology can even completely replace workers- lowering their wages to zero.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

They will pay the least they have to in order to attract the labor they want to hire.

Employees will take the most they can get to provide value to their employer.





If a job requires special skills which are in limited supply relative to the openings, wages will be higher.

Wages are also higher for harder workers, quality work, etc.



More and more jobs are capable of being done by more and more people as technology makes performing that job easier.

The economy is becoming more and more specialized, limiting even more what an individual can do.



Technology can even completely replace workers- lowering their wages to zero.

Technology also requires workers. Ideally, the workers shift to creating and working with the new technology.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

ZippyJuan, I think you have a defeatist approach. The employer-employee relationship is a two way street.

Progressives like to portray the worker as a helpless pawn. The way an employee becomes on par with the employer is to become skilled, work hard, market himself, provide something other workers can't do, etc.

Be the employee that the employer seeks and wants, not the other way around.

[Matt Collins]

Tax breaks are not subsidies or welfare.

[LibForestPaul]

ZippyJuan, I think you have a defeatist approach. The employer-employee relationship is a two way street.

Progressives like to portray the worker as a helpless pawn. The way an employee becomes on par with the employer is to become skilled, work hard, market himself, provide something other workers can't do, etc.

Be the employee that the employer seeks and wants, not the other way around.

i.e. Not a trained monkey. Not a commodity.

[Jan2017]

Rubio's yes helps pass tax bill . . .

Key features of the Republicans’ final tax bill

-Health care
The bill eliminates the individual mandate (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/tax-bill-kills-health-insurance-mandate-who-will-pay-more-n829846), a key part of the Affordable Care Act that penalizes Americans who don't maintain health coverage.
The Congressional Budget Office estimates 13 million fewer people will have health insurance after a decade if the mandate is eliminated and premiums will rise by 10 percent on the individual market.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/key-features-republicans-final-tax-bill-n830346

[Superfluous Man]

Corporate welfare vs social welfare. Still welfare.

Tax deductions are not any kind of welfare at all. They're somebody paying less taxes. The most they can possibly accomplish is paying zero taxes, which just means keeping your own money.

Refundable tax credits are people getting paid back more than they pay in.

[Superfluous Man]

I keep seeing stories that this tax plan will result in a lot of low income and middle class people paying more in taxes though, on account of the loss of their deductions.

Rubio's approach is the wrong one. But they still should have made bigger cuts at the low end to offset the losses of deductions.

[Brian4Liberty]

I keep seeing stories that this tax plan will result in a lot of low income and middle class people paying more in taxes though, on account of the loss of their deductions.

Rubio's approach is the wrong one. But they still should have made bigger cuts at the low end to offset the losses of deductions.

Zero income tax up to $300,000 per year might be good. That will take care of the poor and middle class.

No individual income tax rate should be more than the corporate tax rate.

[angelatc]

I keep seeing stories that this tax plan will result in a lot of low income and middle class people paying more in taxes though, on account of the loss of their deductions.

But they still should have made bigger cuts at the low end to offset the losses of deductions.

WaPo said that 85% of people in all quintiles will see lower taxes. They increase the personal exemption to offset the loss of deductions.

Here's a calculator: http://taxplancalculator.com/calc


Important changes:
-- medical deduction NOT ended
-- student loan deduction NOT ended
-- tuition waivers NOT ended
-- mortgages capped at $750k for
deduction; current homeowners
grandfathered in
-- child credit made more refundable
-- rates lowered (see details to left)
-- state/local deductions now allowed up
to 10k (property, income, or sales)
Other notes:
These do not change from current law:
-- social security earnings not changed
-- business owner expensing not changed
-- EITC not changed

[Brian4Liberty]

Rubio's tax credit and Rand's interest deduction are not remotely similar. And I am pretty sure you know that. I don't agree with it just like I don't favor being able to deduct mortgage interest. I favor a no deductions and a flat tax. But would you say allowing mortgage interest to be tax deductible is welfare? It is a one for one analogy.

I mean Rothbard and that crew are pretty big on these kinds of deductions. I don't even view it as unprincipled.

Agree. Once you start playing the deduction game, it will be corrupted. It creates incentives and decentives, usually with the goal of economic or social engineering. It always leads to cronyism and favoritism.

It also highlights an essential difference between corporate taxes vs. individual taxes. Even if they were the same rate, a business gets write-offs and deductions that an individual will never get.

[Zippyjuan]

Zero income tax up to $300,000 per year might be good. That will take care of the poor and middle class.

No individual income tax rate should be more than the corporate tax rate.

$300,000 a year puts you in the top three percent. http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/income-rank/index.html

[Madison320]

In a free market, everybody is out to get as much as they can for themselves. If the company owners can keep the money and avoid giving it in the form of wages, they will. It isn't about "spreading the wealth around".

I remember when Ender said, many times, that Zippy is not left wing.

[Madison320]

Zero income tax up to $300,000 per year might be good. That will take care of the poor and middle class.


Sarcasm?

[Brian4Liberty]

$300,000 a year puts you in the top three percent. http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/income-rank/index.html

So that would protect the middle class.

Too high? Where would you cut it off to properly redistribute the wealth?


Sarcasm?

Well, if we need to raise it so that it only taxes the top 1%, I'm fine with that. Original intent and all...