Trump Calls Abbas: Tells Trump 'No Palestinian state without East Jerusalem as capital'

[goldenequity]

Trump Calls Abbas: Tells Trump 'No Palestinian state without East Jerusalem as capital'
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-december-5-2017/

US President Donald Trump briefs Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas over the phone regarding “his intention” to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.


Abbas tells Trump that the Palestinian position is “that there will not be a Palestinian state without East Jerusalem as its capital,” according to a report in the official PA news outlet Wafa.

It was not clear from the statement if Trump planned to move the embassy immediately or at some point in the future, with no further details provided.

The Palestinian leader says such a move would undermine the two-state solution and would promote violence and extremism across the region.

Abbas’s spokesperson Nabil Abu Rudeineh says the PA president will continue to be in touch with world leaders to prevent what he called the “unacceptable action.”



Erdogan: Recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital is ‘red line’ for Muslims
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/05/erdogan-recognizing-jerusalem-as-israel-s-capital-is-red-line-for-muslims.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fpolitics+%28Interna l+-+Politics+-+Text%29


Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned the Trump administration on Tuesday that recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital is a “red line” for Muslims.

Erdogan, while speaking to Parliament, said such a step by President Trump would force Turkey to cut off all diplomatic ties with Israel. He pledged to rally other Muslim countries to oppose any move to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

The White House has been considering recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel despite growing calls from the Middle East and Europe to reconsider the move. The possible recognition might come this week.



Trump to call Netanyahu, Jordan king as Jerusalem decision looms


The White House says US President Donald Trump to call Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and King Abdullah of Jordan amid speculation the president is planning to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

A statement says Trump will likely call other foreign leaders over the issue later today.



German FM says recognizing Jerusalem as Israeli capital ‘counterproductive’


“A solution to the Jerusalem problem can only be found through direct negotiations between the two parties,” Germany’s Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabirel tells reporters in Berlin.

“Anything that escalates the crisis during these times is counterproductive,” he adds.







US President Donald Trump had been due to make a decision decision on the Holy City yesterday,
He has delayed it until MONDAY
following a string of public and private warnings from leaders around the globe.


Iraq joined with its warning.
Iran called on Arabs to cut ties with Israel.
Arab League.... even Saudi Arabia/(Jordan)Abdullah is warning against it.




can you spell 'T H I R D I N T I F A D A' ?

[shakey1]

http://www.idiomsbykids.com/uploads/medium/add_fuel_to_the_fire_1_reg.jpg

[enhanced_deficit]

Is this the outcome of "Peace Process" that Kushner was carrying on?


According to TOI news, some Palestinian editor allegedly issued this anti-semitic statement in reaction recent Peace Process efforts apparently:



Senior Palestinian news editor: Jews control Washington

Ma'an editor-in-chief Nasser Laham says there's no difference for Palestinians when negotiating with Israel or US because both are controlled by Jews

By TOI staff 3 December 2017

https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2017/10/AP17290303657929-640x400.jpgPrime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, right, and US President Donald Trump shake hands at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, May 23, 2017. (AP/Sebastian Scheiner)

The editor-in-chief of a major Palestinian news agency on Saturday alleged that Jews control Washington and are pushing the United States to consider recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

“The Jews rule in Washington and the Jews rule in Tel Aviv. What’s the difference?” said Ma’an News Agency editor-in-chief Nasser Laham on Saturday in a television interview on his agency’s own channel, recalling a classic anti-Semitic trope that Jews run the world behind the scenes.

Get The Times of Israel's Daily Edition by email and never miss our top stories
Laham was responding to a question as to whether it was in Israel’s interest to sever the Palestinian-American relationship by pushing for Washington to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of the Jewish state.
The Palestinians have said that should the US recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which President Donald Trump is reportedly considering doing this week, it would mean the end of US-backed peace negotiations.
https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2017/12/Screen-Shot-2017-12-03-at-12.34.53-PM-400x250.png
Ma’an News Agency editor-in-chief Nasser Laham (YouTube Screenshot)

The Palestinians want East Jerusalem for a future Palestinian state, while Israel says the whole of the city is the Jewish state’s capital.
“It’s the same if we negotiate with them (i.e. Jews) in Washington or in Tel Aviv. It’s the same framework,” Laham said.

[goldenequity]

Trump Reportedly Informs Abbas, Jordan's Abdullah He Intends to Move U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.826990

Amichai Stein-Conta verificada
@AmichaiStein1
#BREAKING: "Trump told President Abbas he is going to move the US embassy in #Israel to Jerusalem" - Abbas spox

Israel News Feed- israelHatzolah · 5 min.
BREAKING: President Trump told President Abbas he is going to move the US embassy to Jerusalem.

------

counterpoint

"Trump ISN'T moving the Embassy right away, just stating he wants to soon, big difference than whats being reported in Headlines...

Trump was expected to announce as soon as Wednesday that he will again delay moving the US embassy in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem but stress that he wants to do so, a senior administration official said.
The official said Trump was also likely to say that the United States recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."

[enhanced_deficit]

He could be just practising "art of the deal" on Abbas... sort of like he practised 'fire n fury' on NK few weeks ago.

There is no evidence that Trump is like Clinton, nor there is any news report suggesting that he would try any "wag the dog" distraction to make Flynn, Mueller, Schumer and Pelosi support the commander in chief and leave the gov un-shut.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7d/1f/d2/7d1fd2f639a710e6ab4429b3c42c6ed6.jpg





http://www.idiomsbykids.com/uploads/medium/add_fuel_to_the_fire_1_reg.jpg

To be fair, this could help fix his MSM poll numbers though.
There was a headline on Drudge yesterday that his gallop disapproval jumped to 62% overnight after Flynn-Kushner scandal (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?517312-Breaking-Flynn-says-Trump-directed-him-to-make-contact-with-Russians&) news reports.

Since Trump 'fire and fury' nuke threat, his job approval numbers have gone up (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?515207-Since-Trump-fire-and-fury-nuke-threat-his-job-approval-numbers-have-gone-up&)




Related

The real reason Trump declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel was because he feared losing his evangelical voter base

There are those evangelicals who believe in the prophecy of the ‘End of Days’ foretelling Jewish control of all Jerusalem, a war of civilisations, and a choice of Jews to either embrace Christianity or die in the wrath of God



2 days ago

I have got my latest Prayergram post. It is, quite aptly, on the topic of the day: the “Jerusalem Prayer”. One passage reads “God bless Donald J Trump! He understands the real principles behind success. It is not being good at what you do or understanding theory and practice. It is being on the right side of the blessing of God. Whoever blesses Israel shall be blessed: whoever curses Israel shall be cursed.”

There are no fewer than 50 million evangelicals in America who, according to research, are convinced of the literal truth of Biblical prophecy. A recent survey found that 82 per cent of white evangelicals believe that God gave Israel to the Jewish people; a conviction shared by just 40 per cent of American Jews. Among these evangelicals there are those who believe in the prophecy of the “End of Days” foretelling Jewish control of all Jerusalem, a war of civilisations, and a choice of Jews to either embrace Christianity or die in the wrath of God.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jerusalem-donald-trump-israel-capital-decision-reason-why-evangelical-voters-us-fear-a8099321.html


Video: Christians United For Israel (CUFI) Pastor John Hagee Praying for more War in the name of Jesus (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?426011-Video-CUFI-s-Pastor-John-Hagee-Praying-for-more-War-in-the-name-of-Jesus&)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udBM22ZhxBI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udBM22ZhxBI

A Snapshot of Oppression of Children by US Tax Payers Funded Militarized Police State that (unholy war mongers alliance) Glenn Beck, Ted Cruz and John Hagee of CUFI Support

http://kiaoragaza.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/kids-barbed-wire.jpghttp://media.worldbulletin.net/250x190/2013/06/20/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel.jpg
Left: Open air prison, Right: Children being used as human shields


http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/0C08161884.jpghttps://occupiedpalestine.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/images_news_2012_06_13_arrest-of-youth_300_01.jpg%3Fw%3D588

[goldenequity]

Saudi Arabia hopes US will not recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Saudi-Arabia-hopes-US-will-not-recognize-Jerusalem-as-capital-of-Israel-517043

[enhanced_deficit]

Title of this thread got changed? It sounds bit confusing.



(https://twitter.com/USCGJerusalem/status/938121581821415425/photo/1)https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.827048



U.S. Issues Travel Warning for Jerusalem's Old City, West Bank Amid Embassy Row

Palestinians have declared days of rage after President Trump announced embassy move; Consulate cautions residents to steer clear of trouble spots

Haaretz (https://www.haaretz.com/misc/writers/haaretz-1.367584)
Dec 05, 2017 9:30 PM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQTgGc7WsAAdZ9G.jpg:large

(https://twitter.com/USCGJerusalem/status/938121581821415425/photo/1)
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000538273938/9e77881df2dc7e032c9864c105cbc087_normal.jpeg USCGJerusalem ✔ @USCGJerusalem (https://twitter.com/USCGJerusalem)
Security https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/1f6a8.png Message for US https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/1f1fa-1f1f8.png Citizens https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/2b07.png
2:03 PM - Dec 5, 2017 (https://twitter.com/USCGJerusalem/status/938121581821415425)

[goldenequity]

Title of this thread got changed? It sounds bit confusing.

(https://twitter.com/USCGJerusalem/status/938121581821415425/photo/1)https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.827048

well... there's (at least) 2 issues:
1. Moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv (to Jerusalem)
2. 'Recognizing' Jerusalem as 'Capital' of Israel (both halves... East & 'Old City' West)

#2 rules out the 'Two State Solution'...
the thread title is: Abbas (Palestinian State) reaction to this...
aka 'No Palestinian State is possible w/o E. Jerusalem as their Capital'

In essence: Trump's declaration is: defacto declaring Israel as a Single State permanently.
(They will NOT grant 'citizenship/representation' to the Palestinians...
nor do the Palestinians want it.
It cements their apartheid-like status as: 'Stateless-non citizens.')



============


parallel universe-
#breaking
Hamas urged residents in the Gaza Strip to come and engage with Israeli forces on the border as a part of 3 days of rage that were announced

http://images.jpost.com/image/upload/245904
Palestinians: Three days of rage over Trump's decision on Jerusalem
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Palestinians-three-days-of-rage-over-Trumps-decision-on-Jerusalem-517081

[Raginfridus]

For those of us with ad block browsers, has Trump actually moved the consulate, or is he just saying retarded things and not doing them atm?

[Swordsmyth]

For those of us with ad block browsers, has Trump actually moved the consulate, or is he just saying retarded things and not doing them atm?

I don't think anything happened, he was probably using it as a bargaining chip with someone.

[Raginfridus]

That's great bargaining though, inciting a revolt among one party to further weaken their one-legged chair at the bargaining table. Not a mediator's move, just further confirmation Israel's our colony and they won't let us go.

[Swordsmyth]

That's great bargaining though, inciting a revolt among one party to further weaken their one-legged chair at the bargaining table. Not a mediator's move, just further confirmation Israel's our colony and they won't let us go.

There are other interested parties he may have been extorting.

[goldenequity]

Conflict News-
MORE: Palestinian President Abbas urges the Pope, Russian, French and Jordanian leaders to intervene on Trump's plan to move U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem

PUTIN IN CONVERSATION WITH ABBAS SETS OUT RUSSIA'S POSITION IN FAVOR OF RESUMING DIRECT ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN TALKS ON ALL CONTENTIOUS ISSUES, INCLUDING STATUS OF JERUSALEM - KREMLIN

Israeli IDF is on "High alert" due to Trump expected announcement on #Jerusalem

Germany warns US against recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-warns-us-against-recognizing-jerusalem-as-israels-capital/a-41664436?maca=en-Twitter-sharing

========

Bloomberg-

Trump will sign waiver delaying move of U.S. embassy to Jerusalem while declaring the city Israel's capital, source says
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-05/trump-says-in-calls-he-s-moving-u-s-israel-embassy-to-jerusalem?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

(this does not help :rolleyes: )

In essence...
neocon fundamentalists are holding his feet to the fire over 'campaign promises'
while at the same time blowing smoke up his ass that he is 'God's man'.
He's not discerning enough to know the entire fiction he's being pressed into
is NOT prophetic but 'man-made' start to finish.
This will end poorly.

[Swordsmyth]

President Donald Trump faced down warnings of widespread Middle East unrest and untold damage to the peace process Tuesday, telling anxious Arab leaders he still intends to move the US embassy to Jerusalem.Amid a frantic round of telephone diplomacy, Trump told Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas and Jordan's King Abdullah that the deeply controversial move was coming, but crucially did not give a timeframe.

US officials said he will hold off on moving the embassy right away, but may issue a statement reiterating his intent and even go as far as recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

[Israeli] Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman hailed the moment as a "historic opportunity" for Trump, expressing hope he would see the US embassy in Jerusalem "next week or next month".

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/middle-east-braces-trump-verdict-jerusalem-213127360.html

[Swordsmyth]

President Donald Trump will formally declare Jerusalem to be Israel’s capital and direct the State Department to start the process of moving the U.S. embassy there from Tel Aviv, a historic shift of U.S. policy that could inflame key allies.
But in a sign the announcement could be more symbolic than substantive, the White House warned that any actual move would take years and that the specific boundaries of Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem are still subject to peace talks that have bedeviled U.S. presidents for decades.
Trump’s announcement about the embassy move, which is planned for Wednesday at 1 p.m. in Washington, was detailed to reporters Tuesday evening by three administration officials.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-05/trump-says-in-calls-he-s-moving-u-s-israel-embassy-to-jerusalem

[enhanced_deficit]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/28/21/46C759A400000578-5125025-image-a-40_1511904762763.jpg


Schumer advised Trump to declare Jerusalem as Israel's 'undivided' capital
The Hill (blog) 51m ago

[Swordsmyth]

President Donald Trump on Wednesday recognized the disputed city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital -- a historic decision that overturns decades of US policy and risks triggering a fresh spasm of violence in the Middle East."I have determined that it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel," Trump said from the White House.

"It's the right thing to do."
The declaration calls into question seven decades of deliberate diplomatic ambiguity about the final status of a holy city vociferously claimed by both Israelis and Palestinians.
Trump also kicked off the process of moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, making good on a campaign promise dear to evangelical Christian and right wing Jewish voters -- as well as donors.
He said his decision marked the start of a "new approach" to solving the thorny conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-recognize-jerusalem-israels-capital-020407741.html

[Swordsmyth]

During his 2012 campaign for president, former Texas Congressman Ron Paul stressed the issue of national sovereignty when he was asked about the "Jerusalem Question." He replied, “The real issue here is not what America wants, but what does Israel want. If Israel wants their capital to be Jerusalem, then the United States should honor that.”

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/27533-trump-respects-israel-s-sovereignty-in-embassy-move-to-jerusalem

[enhanced_deficit]

No one is talking about Flynn, 'obstruction of justice' now. At least not today.

Trump Embassy call is topic #1.
Al Franken is #2.





http://www.idiomsbykids.com/uploads/medium/add_fuel_to_the_fire_1_reg.jpg

Hopefully things will remain peaceful in mideast and calmer heads would prevail.

In tragic coincidence, there are news of massive literal fires in Cali on the day of this speech.

NASA Photos: California Fires Seen From Space as Giant Plumes of Smoke
http://www.newsweek.com/nasa-photos-california-fires-seen-space-giant-plumes-smoke-739769 (http://www.newsweek.com/nasa-photos-california-fires-seen-space-giant-plumes-smoke-739769In)



In other news:

December 6, 2017 / 4:23 AM / a day ago

Turkey says declaring Jerusalem Israel's capital will start 'fire with no end in sight'

Reuters Staff
ANKARA (Reuters) - The Turkish government’s spokesman on Wednesday said that the United States’ decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel will plunge the region and the world into “a fire with no end in sight”.
“Declaring Jerusalem a capital is disregarding history and the truths in the region, it is a big injustice/cruelty, shortsightedness, foolishness/madness, it is plunging the region and the world into a fire with no end in sight,” Deputy Prime Minister Bekir Bozdag said on Twitter.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-usa-turkey/turkey-says-declaring-jerusalem-israels-capital-will-start-fire-with-no-end-in-sight-idUSKBN1E00YW




http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Palestinians-Burn-U.S.-Flags-And-Pictures-Of-President-Trump-e1512578499183.jpg

Palestinian Christians Burn Trump Posters In Bethlehem In Fury Over Embassy

Joshua Gill
12/06/2017

Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem burned posters of President Donald Trump on Tuesday evening in furious protest against Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.
The Christians burned posters featuring Donald Trump’s face and the text “Jerusalem, Palestine’s heart, is not up to negotiations,” joining hundreds of other Palestinians who gathered in Gaza and Ramallah to burn similar posters and U.S. flags, according to the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5146653/Abbas-aide-warns-Jerusalem-harm-US-Mideast.html). The Palestinians protested Trump’s imminent recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and the move of the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem, which Trump is expected to officially announce in a Wednesday address at 1 p.m.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/06/palestinian-christians-burn-trump-posters-in-bethlehem-in-fury-over-embassy/




'Two-state Solution Is Over,' Top Palestinian Diplomat Says After Trump's Jerusalem Speech

In exclusive comments to Haaretz, Saeb Erekat, chief Palestinian peace negotiator, said that Trump's decision forces Palestinians to strive for 'historic Palestine, from the river to the sea'
Noa Landau and Jack Khoury Dec 06, 2017 11:54 PM

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-1.827369 ( full story is behind paywall)




‘It’s catastrophic’: U.S. allies reject Trump’s Jerusalem pronouncement
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/12/06/its-catastrophic-u-s-allies-reject-trumps-expected-jerusalem-pronouncement/


https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2017/12/000_UX04V-e1512564761676-1024x640.jpg



Trump’s Jerusalem Decision Immediately Prompts Protests


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQYrF0aXcAAxCs2.jpg:small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQYrF0jWAAAsucB.jpg:small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQYrF0gW0AIaVKO.jpg:small
Scott Dworkin ✔ @funder
BREAKING: Hundreds of protesters already rallying outside of U.S. diplomatic mission in Istanbul in response to Trump’s Jerusalem announcement
2:07 PM - Dec 6, 2017

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQYig0lWsAAJerG.jpg:small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQYiyDrXUAApUJH.jpg:small
Brian Ries ✔ @moneyries
Trump's WWE appearances spotted on sign at Gaza protest against US moving its embassy to Jerusalem.
1:32 PM - Dec 6, 2017
http://www.newsweek.com/trumps-jerusalem-decision-immediately-prompts-protests-after-he-claimed-it-740273

[Swordsmyth]

Czech Republic recognizes West Jerusalem as Israel's capitalhttp://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/363633-czech-republic-recognizes-west-jerusalem-as-israels-capital

[r3volution 3.0]

The Palestinian leader says such a move would undermine the two-state solution and would promote violence and extremism across the region.


So, mission accomplished?

[Dr.3D]

So, mission accomplished?
Seems more like, nothing has changed.

[r3volution 3.0]

Seems more like, nothing has changed.

An apt description of the world since January 20, for the most part.

...but actually this is a pretty important change; the Israelis won't give this up now, and so peace is that much harder.

Uncle Sugar still has plenty of influence there.

[Swordsmyth]

An apt description of the world since January 20, for the most part.

Longer than that, try 9-11-01


...but actually this is a pretty important change; the Israelis won't give this up now

That's NOT a change.

[r3volution 3.0]

Longer than that, try 9-11-01

That's NOT a change.

AIPAC has been lobbying for this "not a change" this since they came into existence.

[Swordsmyth]

AIPAC has been lobbying for this "not a change" this since they came into existence.

I meant that the Israelis refusing to give up Jerusalem is not a change.

[r3volution 3.0]

I meant that the Israelis refusing to give up Jerusalem is not a change.

Well, sure, but you don't see that the POTUS (officially, the most powerful man on Earth) endorsing their view encourages them?

Come now..

[Swordsmyth]

Well, sure, but you don't see that the POTUS (officially, the most powerful man on Earth) endorsing their view encourages them?

Come now..

You can't exceed 100%, the Israelis were already 100% committed to keeping Jerusalem, the sooner everybody recognizes that the better.

I stand with Dr. Ron:

During his 2012 campaign for president, former Texas Congressman Ron Paul stressed the issue of national sovereignty when he was asked about the "Jerusalem Question." He replied, “The real issue here is not what America wants, but what does Israel want. If Israel wants their capital to be Jerusalem, then the United States should honor that.”

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...e-to-jerusalem (https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/27533-trump-respects-israel-s-sovereignty-in-embassy-move-to-jerusalem)

[r3volution 3.0]

You can't exceed 100%, the Israelis were already 100% committed to keeping Jerusalem, the sooner everybody recognizes that the better.

That's horse shit.

ISIS might be 100% on murdering every Christian in the Mid-East, but anybody who endorses said action (esp. a POTIUS) is a cunt.


I stand with Dr. Ron:

During his 2012 campaign for president, former Texas Congressman Ron Paul stressed the issue of national sovereignty when he was asked about the "Jerusalem Question." He replied, “The real issue here is not what America wants, but what does Israel want. If Israel wants their capital to be Jerusalem, then the United States should honor that.”

That means that Ron thought it was none of our business one way or the other, not that we should endorse the Likudniks.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...e-to-jerusalem (https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/27533-trump-respects-israel-s-sovereignty-in-embassy-move-to-jerusalem)[/QUOTE]

[Swordsmyth]

That's horse $#@!.

ISIS might be 100% on murdering every Christian in the Mid-East, but anybody who endorses said action (esp. a POTIUS) is a $#@!.

Recognition is not the same as endorsement, Israel conquered Jerusalem like so many other countries conquered various pieces of their territory and they are 100% committed to keeping it and making it their capital, everybody else has to deal with that reality.

You have 2 choices: remain at peace with Israel and recognize Jerusalem as their capital or declare war and attempt to take Jerusalem away from them.

I for one think it is not our place to declare war on Israel over Jerusalem.




That means that Ron thought it was none of our business one way or the other, not that we should endorse the Likudniks.

During his 2012 campaign for president, former Texas Congressman Ron Paul stressed the issue of national sovereignty when he was asked about the "Jerusalem Question." He replied, “The real issue here is not what America wants, but what does Israel want. If Israel wants their capital to be Jerusalem, then the United States should honor that.”

"Honor that" means accept Jerusalem as their capital and move our embassy there until they lose Jerusalem.

[r3volution 3.0]

Recognition is not the same as endorsement, Israel conquered Jerusalem like so many other countries conquered various pieces of their territory and they are 100% committed to keeping it and making it their capital, everybody else has to deal with that reality.

The status quo was recognition; this is endorsement.


You have 2 choices: remain at peace with Israel and recognize Jerusalem as their capital or declare war and attempt to take Jerusalem away from them.

I for one think it is not our place to declare war on Israel over Jerusalem.

Good lord...

Not endorsing their crimes means going to war with them?

How much does AIPAC pay?

[Dr.3D]

What crime?

Israel wants Jerusalem to be it's capital why should we object?

[r3volution 3.0]

What crime?

Stealing the entire country...


Israel wants Jerusalem to be it's capital why should we object?

Not objecting was the status quo.

Positively endorsing it is the new action.

[Dr.3D]

Stealing the entire country...



Not objecting was the status quo.

Positively endorsing it is the new action.

How did they steal anything?

From what I've seen, they won the seven day war and to the victors go the spoils.

[r3volution 3.0]

How did they steal anything?

By taking real estate which they didn't own.

...is this a riddle or...?


From what I've seen, they won the seven day war and to the victors go the spoils.

Ah, ...I'm reminded of the doctrine of the Luftmenschen (proto-bolsheviks): "Whatever the eye covets, let the hand grasp it."

As Murray noted, a great moral theory....

https://m.popkey.co/782e72/wza4N.gif

[Dr.3D]

Oh well, that's not how it works.

If any of those who are there have a problem with it, perhaps they should just move out and find someplace else to live.

Israel isn't going to leave, that's for sure.

[Swordsmyth]

The status quo was recognition; this is endorsement.

LOL, the status quo was pretending that Jerusalem wasn't their capital, what Trump did was literally to "recognize" Jerusalem as their capital.


Not endorsing their crimes[recognizing their capital] means going to war with them?
Those are the only two morally defensible positions, either we are GloboCop or it is none of our business.



How much does AIPAC pay?

They wouldn't like my positions on most other Israel questions, I want to remove all foreign aid and defense agreements from everybody in the region and let them fend for themselves, if GOD wants to protect them because he thinks they are better than the muslims or as part of some long term plan that is his business and if he wants to punish them for their crimes we shouldn't be standing in the way or we will get caught in the fallout.


Stealing the entire country...
It is much more complex than that, British Jews financed the Arab revolt during WWI with the understanding that they would be given a homeland in the Holy Land, the Arabs and brits double-crossed them and tried to deny it to them for decades, the various sides all committed crimes against one another since then and Israel has managed to come out ahead in the conquest department, which is just as good a claim the their territory as most other countries have.

Would you have us refuse to recognize the ChiComs as the rulers of mainland China because they "stole the entire country"?




Not objecting was the status quo.

Positively endorsing it is the new action.

Nonsense refusing to accept Jerusalem as their capital is most definitely "objecting" and accepting reality and dealing with it is not the same as endorsing it as the "correct" state of affairs.

[r3volution 3.0]

Those are the only two morally defensible positions, either we are GloboCop or it is none of our business.

So, not being globocop means taking an action to support the one side (the one which most lobbies us, coincidentally, of course).

Whereas, doing nothing means being globocop.

Well, that's some terrific newspeak.

I, on the other hand, speak English.


It is much more complex than that, British Jews financed the Arab revolt during WWI with the understanding that they would be given a homeland in the Holy Land, the Arabs and brits double-crossed them and tried to deny it to them for decades, the various sides all committed crimes against one another since then and Israel has managed to come out ahead in the conquest department, which is just as good a claim the their territory as most other countries have.

Would you have us refuse to recognize the ChiComs as the rulers of mainland China because they "stole the entire country"?

You've entirely missed the point komrade; the people don't own the land (individuals do).

No people has ever owned anything, or been robbed of anything; only individuals have owned things or been robbed of things.

...and in the Levant, a whole lot of people have been robbed of a whole lot of things (land, in particular).

It doesn't keep me up at night, mind you, there are plenty of crimes around the word, but I'm not happy about "my" state endorsing them.

[Swordsmyth]

So, not being globocop means taking an action to support the one side (the one which most lobbies us, coincidentally, of course).
Dealing with their determination of where there capital is doesn't "support" them.


Whereas, doing nothing means being globocop.
No, going to war to take Jerusalem from them would be being GloboCop, the status quo is morally indefensible, it means we are sticking our nose in to say that it is wrong for them to have Jerusalem as their capital but we are going to support them anyway. (we do support them in all sorts of ways)





You've entirely missed the point komrade; the people don't own the land (individuals do).

No people has ever owned anything, or been robbed of anything; only individuals have owned things or been robbed of things.

...and in the Levant, a whole lot of people have been robbed of a whole lot of things (land, in particular).

If group ownership is irrelevant then the location of the group's capital is also irrelevant and recognizing Jerusalem as that capital does no harm anyway, we did not endorse any particular seizure of any particular property from any individual we just recognized where the group has placed it's seat of power.
If you are so concerned about the individual thefts then you should be aware of the local Jews that all the Arab countries ejected when Israel declared their independence.

Either we are GloboCop and should deal out justice in all those individual crimes or we aren't and we should leave them to the local powers and GOD to deal with, but so long as we have peace and diplomatic contact with Israel we have to deal with their control of territory and choice of capital and doing so is no more an endorsement than dealing with the ChiComs is an endorsement of communism or their claim to own Taiwan.





It doesn't keep me up at night, mind you, there are plenty of crimes around the word, but I'm not happy about "my" state endorsing them.

It isn't an endorsement, see all the points about that I made in this post and my posts above.

[r3volution 3.0]

And, I have to say, I'm a little surprised that this too has been compromised with the rise of Der Trumpenfuhrer.

I really don't know what to make of people shilling for Raytheon Israel on RPF.

And if they really believe, even worse..

[r3volution 3.0]

Dealing with their determination of where there capital is doesn't "support" them.

Right, it's a just a "determination of where there capital is," like helping them with cartography.

:rolleyes:


No, going to war to take Jerusalem from them would be being GloboCop, the status quo is morally indefensible, it means we are sticking our nose in to say that it is wrong for them to have Jerusalem as their capital but we are going to support them anyway. (we do support them in all sorts of ways)

...which no one has suggested.


If group ownership is irrelevant then the location of the group's capital is also irrelevant and recognizing Jerusalem as that capital does no harm anyway, we did not endorse any particular seizure of any particular property from any individual we just recognized where the group has placed it's seat of power.
If you are so concerned about the individual thefts then you should be aware of the local Jews that all the Arab countries ejected when Israel declared their independence.

People will die, both Arabs and Jews, because they do care, as a result of this proclamation from Washington D.C.


Either we are GloboCop and should deal out justice in all those individual crimes or we aren't and we should leave them to the local powers and GOD to deal with, but so long as we have peace and diplomatic contact with Israel we have to deal with their control of territory and choice of capital and doing so is no more an endorsement than dealing with the ChiComs is an endorsement of communism or their claim to own Taiwan.

What a bunch of fucking horse shit.

You disappoint me.

[Swordsmyth]

And, I have to say, I'm a little surprised that this too has been compromised with the rise of Der Trumpenfuhrer.

I really don't know what to make of people shilling for Raytheon Israel on RPF.

And if they really believe, even worse..

I am the one who is focused on cutting off their military aid while you are flipping your wig about the location of our embassy.

If you believe that Jerusalem should belong to the Arabs then ignore this distraction and work to end our monetary and military support of Israel so that the Arabs have a fighting chance to take it back.

Until they do take it back the Israelis have made it their capital and as long as we are at peace with them we have to deal with that.


And I will repeat what Dr. Paul said on this forum that bears his name:

During his 2012 campaign for president, former Texas Congressman Ron Paul stressed the issue of national sovereignty when he was asked about the "Jerusalem Question." He replied, “The real issue here is not what America wants, but what does Israel want. If Israel wants their capital to be Jerusalem, then the United States should honor that.”

[Swordsmyth]

Right, it's a just a "determination of where there capital is," like helping them with cartography.

:rolleyes:

No they did the cartography, we are just refraining from arguing with them about it.




...which no one has suggested.
I suggested that it was one of two choices that could be defended based on your beliefs about the moral question involved.




People will die, both Arabs and Jews, because they do care, as a result of this proclamation from Washington D.C.
People who wouldn't die if the Arabs didn't riot over a meaningless action, people who would have died in the next riot over whatever excuse the Arabs decided to pick, people who wouldn't have died over this issue if we had recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital when they first made it that decades ago.
(If anyone at all does die over this that is)
If we take a perfectly innocent action and the Arabs cause death and destruction in response that is their fault and not ours, by your logic any criminal can control the world by threatening to do horrible things if everybody else doesn't do what he demands and when he does the horrible things it will be the good people who only did what was their right to do that are at fault.:rolleyes:




What a bunch of $#@!ing horse $#@!.

You disappoint me.

Your refutation of my argument is truly staggering:rolleyes:

[r3volution 3.0]

I am the one who is focused on cutting off their military aid while you are flipping your wig about the location of our embassy.

And, of course, AIPAC having its greatest PR coup in five decades will surely weaken them viz. lobbying for that sweet taxpayer fundage.


If you believe that Jerusalem should belong to the Arabs then ignore this distraction and work to end our monetary and military support of Israel so that the Arabs have a fighting chance to take it back.

...still missing the point komrad.

Neither the Jews nor the Arabs own Jerusalem; the individual property owners who own the bits constituting "Jerusalem" own just those bits.


People who wouldn't die if the Arabs didn't riot over a meaningless action...

(1) Are you aware that the Israeli state has been trying to get Uncle Sugar to recognize Jerusalem as the capital for decades?

(2) If so, why do you think that is? Because it's meaningless?

[Swordsmyth]

And, of course, AIPAC having its greatest PR coup in five decades will surely weaken them viz. lobbying for that sweet taxpayer fundage.
I will inoculate Trump against charges of antisemitism if he were to try to cut their money or defense guarantees. (I don't expect that to happen but we are discussing this particular action not his entire Israel policy and it would apply to Dr. Paul if he had been elected POTUS)




...still missing the point komrad.

Neither the Jews nor the Arabs own Jerusalem; the individual property owners who own the bits constituting "Jerusalem" own just those bits.
And the embassy doesn't affect those individual issues, it only affects the group ownership which exists in fact whether or not your theories would put an end to it if you were King of the world.
The GROUP ownership is THE question that the Arabs and the Israelis care so much about in this matter, therefore it is what we are discussing.




(1) Are you aware that the Israeli state has been trying to get Uncle Sugar to recognize Jerusalem as the capital for decades?
Yes

(2) If so, why do you think that is? Because it's meaningless?
Because they want the same respect as any other sovereign nation gets, they want us to accept that they control Jerusalem and have made it the seat of their government.

[r3volution 3.0]

I will inoculate Trump against charges of antisemitism if he were to try to cut their money or defense guarantees. (I don't expect that to happen but we are discussing this particular action not his entire Israel policy and it would apply to Dr. Paul if he had been elected POTUS)


Because they want the same respect as any other sovereign nation gets, they want us to accept that they control Jerusalem and have made it the seat of their government.

I officially give up: i.e. cease to care.

Enjoy your permanent war and chaos.

[Swordsmyth]

Enjoy your permanent war and chaos.

That was already the forecast and will be unless Israel surrenders all of the land that the Arabs demand which they will never do.

We however can evade it if we withdraw our imperial noses from the region.

[r3volution 3.0]

That was already the forecast and will be unless Israel surrenders all of the land that the Arabs demand which they will never do.

No, there's another option (what actually existed for most of the last millennium).

Go find a son of Othman.

...but, yes, short of that they're quite fucked.


We however can evade it if we withdraw our imperial noses from the region.

Step #1: get said noses deeply involved by siding with the one side (and keep funding them).

Hoo-ray..

[enhanced_deficit]

Militants fire 6 rockets from Gaza into southern Israel (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-12/08/c_136809202.htm)

2017-12-08

GAZA, Dec. 7 (Xinhua) -- Militants fired on Thursday night six makeshift rockets from the Gaza Strip into southern Israel in response to U.S. recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, eyewitnesses said.

The Israeli media reported that at least two rockets landed at empty zones in two towns in southern Israel, causing no damages or injuries.

[Swordsmyth]

THIS BELONGS HERE:


Trump's play kicked US out as mediator in the Peace Talks. This makes the US less relevant in the mideast.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=727&v=oGmDVMqfLKc

[Raginfridus]

Israel wants Jerusalem to be it's capital why should we object?Israel isn't a sovereign state, nor even a client state as others in our empire: its a mere colony. It has no sovereignty of it's own nor will it ever, until USG decide to quit propping it. Its nice that Dr. Paul believes in national sovereignty, but the truth is Israel can't stand w/o US intervention. That's one of the reasons we're entangled in the ME in the first place.

[Swordsmyth]

The irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said (https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/06/statement-president-trump-jerusalem) that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/moving-u-embassy-jerusalem-not-215434421.html

The Arabs don't want Israel to have any part of Jerusalem, they don't want Israel to exist, THAT is why they are rioting over this.

[enhanced_deficit]

Trump’s ‘Lord Balfour moment’ is formal recognition the US was never an honest broker (http://mondoweiss.net/2017/12/trumps-balfour-recognition/)

US Politics (http://mondoweiss.net/us-politics/) Nada Elia on December 7, 2017

http://19453-presscdn.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ap_17208173148527-5c8ad97c252e8f70e4c8ccb832c6209660528067-s900-c85-300x225.jpg (http://mondoweiss.net/2017/12/trumps-balfour-recognition/)

Nada Elia writes, “Trump’s declaration that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel did not kill the two-state solution. That ‘solution’ never had a chance. Palestine, like justice, is indivisible. Trump’s declaration merely pushed aside any pretense at objectivity, neutrality, fairness, or ‘process.'”

It is “the morning after,” and the world, with few exceptions, is denouncing Trump’s declaration that the US recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. With those few exceptions, politicians globally are making vapid statements about the “dangers” of that declaration, namely that it would lead to an escalation of violence, and jeopardize the “peace process.” There seems to be little recognition of the relentless violence of Israeli settler-colonialism, and the complete violation of the Geneva convention and international law by both Israel and the US president.

[Ender]

The irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said (https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/06/statement-president-trump-jerusalem) that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/moving-u-embassy-jerusalem-not-215434421.html

The Arabs don't want Israel to have any part of Jerusalem, they don't want Israel to exist, THAT is why they are rioting over this.

Dude- learn some history.

The place now called "Israel" was an invasion of the ME. Jews & Christians lived there peacefully with Muslims until their land was taken by the Brits.

This is no different than deciding that New England needs to be given back to the Indians & throwing everyone there out with no regard to their rights & property.

[Raginfridus]

The Arabs don't want Israel to have any part of Jerusalem, they don't want Israel to exist, THAT is why they are rioting over this.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Members_of_Neturei_Karta_Orthodox_Jewish_group_pro test_against_Israel.jpg/1200px-Members_of_Neturei_Karta_Orthodox_Jewish_group_pro test_against_Israel.jpg

[Swordsmyth]

Dude- learn some history.

The place now called "Israel" was an invasion of the ME. Jews & Christians lived there peacefully with Muslims until their land was taken by the Brits.

This is no different than deciding that new England needs to be given back to the Indians & throwing everyone there out with no regard to their rights & property.

1. British Jews financed the Arab revolt against the Turks during WWI with the understanding that the Jews would be given a homeland in Judea, the Brits and Arabs spent decades denying it to them.

2. Israel has been created and existed for generations now, what the Arabs want is like using force to give the land back to the Injuns.

3. Israel captured Jerusalem in a war where it was attacked and they have absolutely 0 willingness to give it or any part of it back to the Arabs.

4. It is not our place to decide such matters, unless or until the Arabs take Jerusalem back the Israelis have made it their capital and it is only right that we treat it as such.

[Swordsmyth]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Members_of_Neturei_Karta_Orthodox_Jewish_group_pro test_against_Israel.jpg/1200px-Members_of_Neturei_Karta_Orthodox_Jewish_group_pro test_against_Israel.jpg

The fact that some Jews are opposed to some actions of the state of Israel does not change the fact that the Arabs don't want Israel to have any part of Jerusalem, they don't want Israel to exist and THAT is why they are rioting over this.

[Raginfridus]

The fact that some Jews are opposed to some actions of the state of Israel does not change the fact that the Arabs don't want Israel to have any part of Jerusalem, they don't want Israel to exist and THAT is why they are rioting over this.
That's not what's going on here. You're apologizing for Donald Duck's embassy move to protect slumlord billionaire's venture projects with our military. If there is a hill to die upon for Glorious Leader, this isn't the one.

[Swordsmyth]

That's not what's going on here. You're apologizing for Donald Duck's embassy move to protect slumlord billionaire's venture projects with our military. If there is a hill to die upon for Glorious Leader, this isn't the one.

The embassy move does nothing to protect anything, if the Arabs go to war over this meaningless action it may end up causing destruction or even loss of territory to Israel.

[Ender]

The embassy move does nothing to protect anything, if the Arabs go to war over this meaningless action it may end up causing destruction or even loss of territory to Israel.

"If the Arabs go to war....."

So, what is the US doing in the ME, exactly? Bringing peace?

[Swordsmyth]

"If the Arabs go to war....."

So, what is the US doing in the ME, exactly? Bringing peace?

I did not defend any military action of the empire, but the Palestinians, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt etc. are not currently in a state of war with Israel but they might change that and my point was that the embassy move is more likely to endanger Kushner's/Israel's interests than benefit them.

[Raginfridus]

https://youtu.be/mCVJPXmE0DE

[enhanced_deficit]

The fact that some Jews are opposed to some actions of the state of Israel does not change the fact that the Arabs don't want Israel to have any part of Jerusalem, they don't want Israel to exist and THAT is why they are rioting over this.

EM
That is interesting selective use of collectivist terms, "some Jews" vs "the Arabs".
Are you implying there are not "some Arabs" who want East Jerusalem as Capital of their State and do not claim that G-d promised the whole of that land to only them because they are special?



I did not defend any military action of the empire, but the Palestinians, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt etc. are not currently in a state of war with Israel but they might change that and my point was that the embassy move is more likely to endanger Kushner's/Israel's interests than benefit them.

EM

Some US Jews probably see Christian evangelicals'pushing for such steps as 'anti-semitic'.

CUFI Leader John Hagee confirms Christian Zionism is anti-Semitic (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?483781-CUFI-Leader-John-Hagee-confirms-Christian-Zionism-is-anti-Semitic&)

[Swordsmyth]

EM
That is interesting selective use of collectivist terms, "some Jews" vs "the Arabs".
Are you implying there are not "some Arabs" who want East Jerusalem as Capital of their State and do not claim that G-d promised the whole of that land to only them because they are special?

I am not implying that there aren't Arabs who differ from those I referred to, I don't have to lay out all the micro-details of the situation in order to make a point that doesn't deal with the exceptions.





EM

Some US Jews probably see Christian evangelicals'pushing for such steps as 'anti-semitic'.

CUFI Leader John Hagee confirms Christian Zionism is anti-Semitic (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?483781-CUFI-Leader-John-Hagee-confirms-Christian-Zionism-is-anti-Semitic&)

I don't care, Israel exists, Israel controls Jerusalem, Israel has made it the seat of their government, we owe them the same consideration we would give any other sovereign nation to recognize their capital.

And as for the Palestinians I repeat the following:


This needs repeating because all of the propagandists and virtue signalers are distorting the truth:


The irony is that what the president said does not concede those rights and claims. His recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital reflects a reality that it is the seat of Israel’s government and that, for the Jewish state, Jerusalem will always be its capital — there is no other city that could be. For Palestinians, they too no doubt cannot envision any city but Jerusalem as the capital of their state, if and when it emerges from moribund negotiations. The president’s statement does not rule that out: On the contrary, he said (https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/06/statement-president-trump-jerusalem) that the United States is not taking a position on “the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.” Those questions, he said, “are up to the parties involved.”

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/moving-u-...215434421.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/moving-u-embassy-jerusalem-not-215434421.html)