PDA

View Full Version : Disturbing Trend




Anne
05-19-2007, 04:37 AM
I've noticed a disturbing trend on this forum and others wherein Ron Paul supporters are trying to micromanage other Ron Paul supporters. They are telling others what they should and should not do and say and what issues they should discuss when talking about Ron Paul.

I would suggest that you keep your suggestions to yourself and focus on what you yourself can do for Ron Paul. Please don't worry about what others are doing or saying. That is counterproductive.

Ron Paul's platform encompasses all of us. Conspiracy theorists, right-wingers, liberals, libertarians, Democrats, cancer patients in need of medical marijuana for pain relief, 911 Truthers, people who think 911 Truthers are nuts, etc.

The Ron Paul phenomenon is too big to contain. Likewise, you cannot contain the people who are going to support him. If you don't agree with the WAY in which someone is supporting him, I suggest you keep it to yourself. We can all support him in our own way.

If someone wants to wear a shirt with a marijuana leaf on it and the words "Ron Paul for President" then go for it. That's their choice.

If someone is a 9/11 Truth activist and wants to tell others about Ron Paul and 9/11 in the same breath, then I say go for it.

That's why Ron Paul is going to win. Because he appeals to almost everyone in every group once they learn what he stands for: individual freedoms and civil liberties.

If you spend all your time worrying about what types of people are supporting Ron Paul, that's valuable time lost in telling someone how YOU feel about Ron Paul.

Focus on the positive and focus on the things you can control. You can't control other people. You can only control yourself.

jon_perez
05-19-2007, 04:41 AM
If you don't agree with the WAY in which someone is supporting [Ron Paul], I suggest you keep it to yourself.Unfortunately, that would mean an absence of freedom of expression...

Anne
05-19-2007, 04:51 AM
Unfortunately, that would mean an absence of freedom of expression...

You have the right to do it, but it makes you look like an idiot and a fascist. Think about what you are doing and saying. Everytime someone says 9/11 truthers should shut up about Ron Paul, that's a slap in the face to everything Ron Paul stands for: freedom of expression and questioning of the government.

Did nothing in what I wrote mean anything to you? I am starting to get scared by you guys. This isn't fascistforum.com is it?

Anne
05-19-2007, 04:54 AM
Unfortunately, that would mean an absence of freedom of expression...

And please note the word "suggest." I "suggest" you keep it to yourself in the interest of fairness and decency. If I see one more post whining about 911 Truthers "ruining" Ron Paul's campaign or "hemp lovers" doing the same, I am going to throw up.

Wouldn't it be fantastic if all 911 Truthers supported Ron Paul? Wouldn't it be wonderful if all people who thought 911 Truthers were crazy supported Ron Paul?

There's room for everyone. Chill out.

DrStrabismus
05-19-2007, 05:30 AM
If I see one more post whining about 911 Truthers "ruining" Ron Paul's campaign or "hemp lovers" doing the same, I am going to throw up.


Please don't throw up! We need you to keep up your strength. ;)

I think that one of RP's strengths is that he can appeal to a wide variety of people, for many different reasons. The cause of liberty is universal, except to those few people who want to control everyone else. They can be stopped if enough people stand together. RP is a "one issue" candidate: freedom. The great thing is, that almost all other issues spring forth from that.

Unfortunately, I think many people don't understand the concept of liberty (negative liberty, specifically) and many of RP's stances can confuse people because they don't realize where he's coming from. Many people make snap judgments. If people see that Paul voted against a bill that would fight child porn, people think "wow, he supports child porn! how evil!" If people hear that he doesn't support laws against pot, they think "he likes drugs!" Or, if people hear that he may support an independent investigation of 9/11, people think "he must be a conspiracy theorist"

So, I guess what I'm saying is: we really do need to think about conveying the reasoning behind the secondary issues. The only real issue for Ron is freedom.

jon_perez
05-19-2007, 06:11 AM
You have the right to do it, but it makes you look like an idiot and a fascist. Think about what you are doing and saying. Everytime someone says 9/11 truthers should shut up about Ron Paul, that's a slap in the face to everything Ron Paul stands for: freedom of expression and questioning of the government.

Did nothing in what I wrote mean anything to you? I am starting to get scared by you guys.Mmm... for what it's worth, I don't believe 9/11 has been explained satisfactorily at all by the US government and that it, in fact, has a lot more explaining to do.

But I certainly consider it very, very irresponsible to make the accusation that the government (or certain people in it) was behind 9/11 and. Foxnews has shown how it can very easily spin this into making people think that Ron Paul himself actually holds such a belief (which he most certainly doesn't).



This isn't fascistforum.com is it?:rolleyes: Speaking of depression, I do find it depressing that some people can't come up with anything more original than that accusation. What's next, "unamerican" ? :D

AlexAmore
05-19-2007, 06:32 AM
I think Fox has shown how far one can spin something as innocent as bombings in the middle east for 10 years all the way into 9/11 TRUTHER conspiracy theorist tin foil hatter!!!

If you're going to talk about Ron Paul to a stranger then 9/11 would not be a good thing to say with Ron Paul in the same sentence. You don't want to give them false notions and you don't want to exaggerate it. He said he would investigate it as far as I know.

If you're talking with friends and family then maybe you can talk about whatever you want. With strangers, just talk about his stances that he talks about on HIS WEBSITE so you know you are spreading the message that HE wants to spread.

I don't think it's wrong to talk about how to spread Paul's overall message to America. I think it's crucial, businesses hire entire advertising departments to just focus on the perfect way to say something and to what demographic...ect.

jon_perez
05-19-2007, 06:45 AM
If someone wants to wear a shirt with a marijuana leaf on it and the words "Ron Paul for President" then go for it. That's their choice.Of course it is their choice.

Just like if someone wants to wear a shirt with the words "I am a child molester" in front and the words "Ron Paul for President" at the back it's their choice. But don't tell me that wouldn't concern you.

Hawaii Libertarian
05-19-2007, 06:45 AM
If you're talking with friends and family then maybe you can talk about whatever you want. With strangers, just talk about his stances that he talks about on HIS WEBSITE so you know you are spreading the message that HE wants to spread.

I don't think it's wrong to talk about how to spread Paul's overall message to America. I think it's crucial, businesses hire entire advertising departments to just focus on the perfect way to say something and to what demographic...ect.

I'm sure Dr. Paul and his campaign director and staff have taken a lot of time to carefully consider his public platform that he wishes to campaign on. We all should respect that. Here's the link to Dr. Paul's issues page from the official campaign web site. We all can safely assume that these are the messages Dr. Paul wants us to advance when talking about him.

Anything else not on this page is basically "off message" and could be perceived as a distraction from achieving the objective we all seek--Dr. Paul's election as President.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/html/Issues_fx.html

MsDoodahs
05-19-2007, 06:48 AM
Just out of curiousity, I looked around to see if any well known pollsters had done any polls to see how americans feel on 9/11.

REMEMBER: I DO NOT TRUST POLLING DATA FOR VARIOUS REASONS. :)

Zogby did some polling on this subject.

Read about it here:

http://www.zogby.com/features/features.dbm?ID=231


I am by no means a 'truther,' because I don't think our government could find its way out of an open paper grocery sack. :D

I also don't believe that those who believe otherwise (9/11 truthers) are a threat to Dr. Paul. They don't get to dictate what HE believes.

HE DOES.

And I have confidence that he will be directly asked what he thinks about it, and I have confidence that he will be his usual open, honest, and REAL self as to what he thinks.

THAT is good enough for me.

:D

kylejack
05-19-2007, 08:25 AM
I will continue to speak out when 9/11 Truthers tie themselves to Ron Paul. We've got enough trouble already without conspiracy theorists tainting Ron Paul's campaign.

furface
05-19-2007, 08:32 AM
>>>I've noticed a disturbing trend on this forum and others wherein Ron Paul supporters are trying to micromanage other Ron Paul supporters.<<<

Let it go. When my boss tries to micromanage me, it's an issue for me. When someone on an Internet forum tries to do it, there's the trusty next message button.

I personally find the SUGGESTIONS of voting in polls and watching videos to be very informative. I don't take them as strict instructions, obviously.

MsDoodahs
05-19-2007, 08:33 AM
I'm not saying for you not to speak out. :)

It is up to each individual to decide how to conduct themselves in all areas of life, not just in this campaign.

Bryan
05-19-2007, 08:36 AM
Nice discussion with lots of good perspectives. My take is we don't want to attack peoples free expression here and I think Josh is resolved to that end minus certain limitations for obvious trolls, so in this way, I certainly do agree with Anne. I do still think though that Hawaii Libertarians states what I am attempting to best do, focus on the message that Dr. Paul lists on his campaign web site- there are so many important issues listed that so many Americans can get a new perspective on from Dr. Paul that there just isn't a need to stray off these at this point and maybe onto something more controversial.

It would seem however that if someone felt very compelled to want to say something about someone else approach to consider the following:
- Determine if they think it is really worth addressing (very important)
- Consider contacting the person with a PM or make a non-directed post.
- Don't try to tell other what to do or not do, simply explain your perspective of your concern.
- Don't retaliate from any negative response, try to say your peace carefully once.
- Be nice and stay focused.

Just my $0.02. Great to see things staying civil here.

furface
05-19-2007, 08:37 AM
>>>I will continue to speak out when 9/11 Truthers tie themselves to Ron Paul.<<<

I think you're correct to do this. People will try to blur two distinctly different issues, one that US policies encourage terrorism against the US, and the other less probable concept, that 9/11 was an inside job.

kelldor
05-19-2007, 08:42 AM
I think Ron Paul would want to include people who seek the truth. That seems to be an underlying theme of his campaign, "just telling the truth", and "speaking truth to authority". I recall him speaking to 9/11 students for truth at a fund raising party once. All he said was that he supports a new independant investigation, and he hasn't looked into it really.

As a personal rule of thumb, any claim I make on conspiratorial topics, I will try to provide evidence to support my position, rather than making groundless claims, out of respect and fairness to those who have legitimate concerns regarding topics that could potentially hurt Ron Pauls campaign. Tollerance would be advised though, as issues like these are a big source of support for Ron Paul. The Alex Jones show (Prisonplanet.com, and Infowars.com) is a big Ron Paul supporter, and he appears on there often.


Kelldor

mdh
05-19-2007, 09:46 AM
>>>I will continue to speak out when 9/11 Truthers tie themselves to Ron Paul.<<<

I think you're correct to do this. People will try to blur two distinctly different issues, one that US policies encourage terrorism against the US, and the other less probable concept, that 9/11 was an inside job.

This is all well and good, I would just ask hopefully that anyone who does criticize anyone else remember that we're all on the same team here despite disagreements on some individual issues, and that we do everything possible to avoid destructive in-fighting.


Nice discussion with lots of good perspectives. My take is we don't want to attack peoples free expression here and I think Josh is resolved to that end minus certain limitations for obvious trolls, so in this way, I certainly do agree with Anne. I do still think though that Hawaii Libertarians states what I am attempting to best do, focus on the message that Dr. Paul lists on his campaign web site- there are so many important issues listed that so many Americans can get a new perspective on from Dr. Paul that there just isn't a need to stray off these at this point and maybe onto something more controversial.

I'd kind of disagree here. This works well if you're talking to a broad group, or an individual or group with whom you're not familiar. But for individuals and groups with whom you are familiar, your selling points should be tailored to them. If you're talking to a 9/11 Truther or even a hardcore tinfoil hatter, there's no shame in spinning things in a way that's going to appeal most to them. Just be mindful of every word you choose, and every statement you make, and be 100% sure that you're not at all *lying* before you say something. It's never in our interests to misrepresent a position or platform or to outright lie in any context.
Using the same canned talking points over and over again is going to get boring, and besides, people can read the canned lines for themselves quite readily - it's up to us to put things in perspective for them in a way that really brings them on-board.

Craig_R
05-19-2007, 12:38 PM
I'm with you anne, people please, lets just focus on getting Dr.Paul elected.

Being libertarian minded and more then somewhat of a rebel I don't really take kindly to anyone telling me what I should or should not talk about/wear/think.

I find it Ironic to see such things on a board dedicated to getting the most libertarian man in government elected president.

It has been said that the biggest problem with the Libertarian party is that, getting libertarian minded people to act in concert is like hearding cats...

Lets not let that happen here, we've got a good thing going with support from all factions of american citizens..

I hope we can all focus on a singular goal and get congressman Paul elected, we're going to need a big tent and I welcome anyone willing to vote for Dr. Paul

The rest we can debate elsewhere

kylejack
05-19-2007, 12:47 PM
I'm with you anne, people please, lets just focus on getting Dr.Paul elected.

Being libertarian minded and more then somewhat of a rebel I don't really take kindly to anyone telling me what I should or should not talk about/wear/think.

I find it Ironic to see such things on a board dedicated to getting the most libertarian man in government elected president.

It has been said that the biggest problem with the Libertarian party is that, getting libertarian minded people to act in concert is like hearding cats...

Lets not let that happen here, we've got a good thing going with support from all factions of american citizens..

I hope we can all focus on a singular goal and get congressman Paul elected, we're going to need a big tent and I welcome anyone willing to vote for Dr. Paul

The rest we can debate elsewhere

Look, if an organization like the KKK were to post here telling us how much they support Ron Paul and how hard they're going to work to get him elected by calling into radio shows and etc, I'd tell them to stand down. 9/11 Truthers aren't that bad, but they do cast a negative pall on the campaign for the average American.

Craig_R
05-19-2007, 12:58 PM
Look, if an organization like the KKK were to post here telling us how much they support Ron Paul and how hard they're going to work to get him elected by calling into radio shows and etc, I'd tell them to stand down. 9/11 Truthers aren't that bad, but they do cast a negative pall on the campaign for the average American.

I dont care what you would tell them, I'd say welcome. Its called freedom of speech and expression. The first amendment is all inclusive, while I may not like what they say or stand for, I'll defend with my life if need be their right to say it.

If you're uncomfortable with that I hear that china has a system of government that may be more to your liking

tnvoter
05-19-2007, 01:09 PM
I'm sure Dr. Paul and his campaign director and staff have taken a lot of time to carefully consider his public platform that he wishes to campaign on. We all should respect that. Here's the link to Dr. Paul's issues page from the official campaign web site. We all can safely assume that these are the messages Dr. Paul wants us to advance when talking about him.

Anything else not on this page is basically "off message" and could be perceived as a distraction from achieving the objective we all seek--Dr. Paul's election as President.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/html/Issues_fx.html

yep

kylejack
05-19-2007, 01:12 PM
I dont care what you would tell them, I'd say welcome. Its called freedom of speech and expression. The first amendment is all inclusive, while I may not like what they say or stand for, I'll defend with my life if need be their right to say it.
Yes, I like Voltaire too.


If you're uncomfortable with that I hear that china has a system of government that may be more to your liking

What the hell?

Gee
05-19-2007, 01:22 PM
I've noticed a disturbing trend on this forum and others wherein Ron Paul supporters are trying to micromanage other Ron Paul supporters. They are telling others what they should and should not do and say and what issues they should discuss when talking about Ron Paul.
The human need to tell other people what to do should never be underestimated or promoted, IMO. But in the absense of coercion, its really nothing more than rudeness.

Craig_R
05-19-2007, 01:28 PM
What the hell?

well, you are denouncing the very rights we're here fighting for. Liberty for all, means you'll have to tolerate some things you may disagree with.

To come here and attempt to limit those rights is contrary to the message of liberty that we're all here to support. The message this country was founded on, the message Ron Paul is campioning, the message that should be bringing us all together.

Now please brothers and sisters, I emplore you, put our differences of opinon aside and focus on the ties that bind us... and bring back liberty to the masses.

Lets get Ron Paul elected

Cunningham
05-19-2007, 05:13 PM
I don't think anyone here thinks the Truth movement doesn't have a right to support what they want. I myself want to know the truth and I don't believe the government. You can quote all the opinion polls you want but just because the american people think the government is lying to them doesn't mean they think the government was behind the attacks. If you mention controlled demolitions to most people there brain will just shut off. Most people do not want to believe that there government faked something to justify a war and a police state, they don't want to ever have to accept that. It'll take more than some videos on youtube or some rallies to convince them of that. Your going to have to have a fundamental change in our government if you ever hope to have your opinions investigated. You've got more chance of that type of government with Ron Paul than with any one else. By all means. continue to seek the truth but don't make it any easier for the establishment to marginalize Ron Paul. You have to think about this strategically. It's true, you can continue to try to associate the movement with Ron Paul and he might still win, but what if it's that very association that ends up costing him that election. That's a chance I'm not willing to take. Four years of Ron Paul in the White House will help us all more than 18 months on the campaign trail.

mdh
05-19-2007, 05:38 PM
There's no need for hostility guys - same team here! :)

mesler
05-19-2007, 05:46 PM
Focus on the positive and focus on the things you can control. You can't control other people. You can only control yourself.

You can't control people, but you can influence them, just like you're trying to do here. :)

kylejack
05-19-2007, 05:48 PM
well, you are denouncing the very rights we're here fighting for. Liberty for all, means you'll have to tolerate some things you may disagree with.
No, liberty means I can say what I want, and what I'm saying is that 9/11 Truthers hurt the campaign, and they can best help the Ron Paul campaign by not visibly tying Ron Paul to the Truther campaigns.


To come here and attempt to limit those rights is contrary to the message of liberty that we're all here to support.
I'm not limiting anyone's rights. I'm telling Truthers that if they write LTEs, comments, and blog posts that associate Ron Paul with the Truther movement that they will hurt his chances at getting nominated, and of getting his message out.



Now please brothers and sisters, I emplore you, put our differences of opinon aside and focus on the ties that bind us... and bring back liberty to the masses.

Lets get Ron Paul elected

Yes, let's, and let's do so by not tying Ron Paul to movements that the majority of Americans consider to be tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

Michael Wilson
05-19-2007, 05:49 PM
When I talk to people about Ron Paul I usually start with the things listed on his website, but then it usually goes into other topics after that, and I say if you eally want to know if Ron Paul supports it, then check to see if it is in the Constitution, because that is where he runs his campaign from. That usually quells their fears, and then they come back after they have looked up Ron Paul, and they are every bit as adamant about getting him elected as I am.

Kandilynn
05-19-2007, 06:11 PM
When I talk to people about Ron Paul I usually start with the things listed on his website, but then it usually goes into other topics after that, and I say if you eally want to know if Ron Paul supports it, then check to see if it is in the Constitution, because that is where he runs his campaign from. That usually quells their fears, and then they come back after they have looked up Ron Paul, and they are every bit as adamant about getting him elected as I am.
Where are you writing this from? I thought you were at a concert. (I miss you! ;) )


I'm with Craig, just having this many people working together to do something proactive is awesome.

I do have my fears occasionally, but not about the 9/11 truthers. For the most part the 9/11 truthers have done more good than harm. They helped put that jerk from the Michigan GOP in his place as well as a whole lot of others. They are enemies anyway. The people I'm worried about are the ones who want to flood the inboxes of our supporters. The ones that say "Bill Maher said he wants RP on his show again, lets flood him with e-mails telling him to have RP back on the show!" But I do and will continue to hold my breath and hope it's okay.

4Horsemen
05-19-2007, 06:32 PM
Of course it is their choice.

Just like if someone wants to wear a shirt with the words "I am a child molester" in front and the words "Ron Paul for President" at the back it's their choice. But don't tell me that wouldn't concern you.

Who would do something like that, and live to tell about it?

I saw Chelsea Clinton wearing a shirt saying "My mommy is a Commie" :)

RedStripe
05-19-2007, 06:50 PM
Who cares about any of this... we dont need to focus on who's personal views are more in line with Paul's or whatever, we need to focus on getting Ron Paul's name out so people can find out what he stands for, in his own words.

MediaTruthNetwork
05-19-2007, 06:53 PM
Who cares about any of this... we dont need to focus on who's personal views are more in line with Paul's or whatever, we need to focus on getting Ron Paul's name out so people can find out what he stands for, in his own words.
Exactly....

Full force ACTIONism begins by educating the populace about Ron Paul. They
can form their own opinions once shown the light. Its just a matter of
getting that light to them.

- Dave

Anne
05-19-2007, 11:45 PM
Thanks for all your thoughtful responses. I'd just like to say that I am thinking of leaving this forum because of the repeated namecalling and referring to people who question the government as "tinfoil hatters." I'm not a "911 Truther" but am more agnostic about the subject because I just don't know what the real story is. Maybe our government did it, maybe it really was terrorists, maybe our government allowed terrorists to do it ... who knows?

I believe elements in the government killed Kennedy. I believe aliens landed at Roswell. I believe the FDA is trying to keep alternative treatments from us.

I don't own a tinfoil hat. In fact, I don't use tinfoil or aluminum foil at all because aluminum leeches into the food and is toxic. Is that enough of a crazy theory for you?

I believe that the mainstream media is deliberately trying to keep Ron Paul out of the election. That isn't a conspiracy theory. That's a fact. I watched in real time as ABC deleted hundreds of comments about Ron Paul that were not spam.

If you want to keep this a forum for all perspectives and viewpoints, you're going to have to stop calling people tinfoil hatters. Period.

If you can't accept that, I will find another forum that is more open-minded and accepting of different viewpoints.

jon_perez
05-20-2007, 02:15 AM
Thanks for all your thoughtful responses. I'd just like to say that I am thinking of leaving this forum because of the repeated namecalling and referring to people who question the government as "tinfoil hatters."Oh please, stop blackmailing others into muzzling themselves just to avoid upsetting you. :rolleyes:


I'm not a "911 Truther" but am more agnostic about the subject because I just don't know what the real story is.You're getting too worked up about labels. Anyone who does not believe that the government is telling the whole story about 9/11 is a 911 "Truther" by the everyday definition of the phrase I'm fairly sure that covers a LOT of people, including me.




I believe elements in the government killed Kennedy. I believe aliens landed at Roswell. I believe the FDA is trying to keep alternative treatments from us.

I don't own a tinfoil hat. In fact, I don't use tinfoil or aluminum foil at all because aluminum leeches into the food and is toxic. Is that enough of a crazy theory for you?You're free to believe any and all those things above and other people are free to ridicule you for having them especially if you can't back them up with solid evidence.



I believe that the mainstream media is deliberately trying to keep Ron Paul out of the election. That isn't a conspiracy theory. That's a fact. I watched in real time as ABC deleted hundreds of comments about Ron Paul that were not spam.I suggest you listen to what Ron Paul said when he was asked his opinion on mainstream media in the Reagan Library debate. It was a very sane and rational answer not tainted with paranoia or unfounded accusations and finger-pointing.



If you want to keep this a forum for all perspectives and viewpoints, you're going to have to stop calling people tinfoil hatters. Period.If you want to keep this a forum for all perspectives and viewpoints, you're going to have to stop making demands and then ending them with "Period."


If you can't accept that, I will find another forum that is more open-minded and accepting of different viewpoints.Hey, it's a free country.

Anne
05-20-2007, 02:55 AM
You are a complete jerk. I'm totally out of here. I want to focus on Ron Paul, not fight with self-righteous people like you. I'm just going to keep on doing my own thing for Ron Paul. No need to hang out with the likes of you to help him. I'm not making demands, just asking people to stop name-calling and belittling people. You did enough belittling in this post to make Bill O'Reilly proud.

I really do believe in the law of attraction and surrounding oneself with positive people and this place just isn't cutting it for me.

I'm sure it's fine for most of you. But I lose my temper too easily when people are as rude as jon_perez and I don't want to lose my temper. I just want to focus on Ron Paul and what I see as his platform of unification of different viewpoints.

I don't need to prove anything to you, jon_perez, or back up anything with evidence. I am not on trial. I can say I believe the FDA is corrupt without having to prove it. That's my opinion. Yes, I can prove it because I;m in the healthcare industry but I'm not here to do that.

Read up on Ron Paul's comments on the FDA and the bills he introduced. That should tell you enough.

I hope you all have fun in your super happy little family of non-tinfoil hatters supporting Ron Paul and not talking about marijuana or anything else controversial. Have fun making Ron Paul as bland and non-controversial as possible in order to dumb him down for the masses. It sounds like the best way to not get him elected.

I'll be pursuing other avenues of support for him.

Bye.


Oh please, stop blackmailing others into muzzling themselves just to avoid upsetting you. :rolleyes:

You're getting too worked up about labels. Anyone who does not believe that the government is telling the whole story about 9/11 is a 911 "Truther" by the everyday definition of the phrase I'm fairly sure that covers a LOT of people, including me.



You're free to believe any and all those things above and other people are free to ridicule you for having them especially if you can't back them up with solid evidence.


I suggest you listen to what Ron Paul said when he was asked his opinion on mainstream media in the Reagan Library debate. It was a very sane and rational answer not tainted with paranoia or unfounded accusations and finger-pointing.


If you want to keep this a forum for all perspectives and viewpoints, you're going to have to stop making demands and then ending them with "Period."

Hey, it's a free country.

kelldor
05-20-2007, 03:29 AM
Yes, let's, and let's do so by not tying Ron Paul to movements that the majority of Americans consider to be tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

I respectfully submit that the "tinfoil hat" comment echoes Michelle Malkin or Faux News. Check out this poll, out of almost 60,000 people, 83% believe the government covered up the real events of the 9/11 attacks. (http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=14267)

In fairness though, you make a valid point that tying Ron Paul to 9/11 conspiracy theories could hurt his campaign. That is exactly what Michelle Malkin and Faux News are trying to do as well, and yes, we should take that into consideration.

More interesting though than any back and forth "no 9/11 stuff vs. free speech" is the fact that there is a rising constituency out there that wants to be represented by someone honest and willing to hear their redress for grievances. I found an actual scientific Zogby Poll showing that Over 70 Million American Adults Support New 9/11 Investigation (http://pdfserver.prweb.com/pdfdownload/388743/pr.pdf).

70 million adult Americans have the ability to tip the balance of a presidential election. That is powerful!

In closing, I propose that we work together to figure out a way to effectively harness that power in such a way so as not to do undue harm to Ron Paul's campaign, but at the same time continue to be inclusive and welcoming people of differing opinions. In that way, I think both sides of the argument could come out as winners. You don't have to support the 9/11 Truth movement, and I respect every Americans right to make that choice themselves, but we can not deny that there are a lot of people who want the truth, and I see no better candidate out there to deliver us the truth than Ron Paul.

Kelldor

tnvoter
05-20-2007, 04:36 AM
anne, no offense but i've been addicted to this forum for 3 days and i haven't experienced Anything you're talking about.

seriously, best wishes!

Scribbler de Stebbing
05-20-2007, 05:32 AM
This entire post was unnecessary and is only serving to divide us. I am going to ignore this post from now on and suggest you all do the same.

Let's get back to work!

Anne
05-20-2007, 05:48 AM
This entire post was unnecessary and is only serving to divide us. I am going to ignore this post from now on and suggest you all do the same.

Let's get back to work!

This dismissive attitude is exactly why I'm leaving. No attempt to understand people on the board who differ from you.

It's really sad. I'm sorry you think my post was "unnecessary." Frankly, I think you and certain others here are deliberately trying to divide people. My post, if you read it clearly, is trying to unite people. Yet some people in this thread persisted with the "tin foil hat" and conspiracy comments.

Good luck with everything.

AlexAmore
05-20-2007, 06:27 AM
Anne I understand you in such that I am a 9/11 "truther", however, even I know that mentioning 9/11 and Ron Paul in the same breath is political suicide for Ron. 9/11 alone is major major topic of controversial discussion/debate, one does not need to complicate it and add Ron Paul to it. If you're talking about 9/11 with someone and then say Ron Paul will open an investigation, then that person will automatically assume Ron Paul is a 9/11 truther.

Most 9/11 truthers are already on board with Ron Paul because of a wide range of issues and because he will start a new investigation. It appears the deal is already sealed with them. I don't know why the message of Ron Paul and his one comment of starting a new investigation must be perpetuated. There simply is not much to talk about that one comment and a lot of discussion makes the layperson think he is a 9/11 truther when he is in fact not.

9/11 as a topic should go into the off topic discussion or loosechange911.com. Ron Paul is not affiliated with 9/11 truth nor has the issue on his website so we should do him a favor and respect his real issues and perpetuate those.

Just because I say i'll open a new investigation into some womens death does not mean i'm implying she was murdered, or suicidal. It just means I want to know more going either way and clarify it.

Bryan
05-20-2007, 07:42 AM
I propose that we work together to figure out a way to effectively harness that power in such a way so as not to do undue harm to Ron Paul's campaign, but at the same time continue to be inclusive and welcoming people of differing opinions. In that way, I think both sides of the argument could come out as winners.
I'll agree with this totally, it would be great if you could start a thread in the Strategies forum on this.

Otherwise, I think the issue at hand is assuring this forum has an established code of conduct that is inline with the desires of the users. No one wants to crush free expression but I will agree with Anne that attaching negative labels to members isn't going to be productive. Right now my leading thought is that the more purposed forums here (the Issues forum and Strategies forum) could require a stronger code of conduct while General Discussion is more open expression.

Others thoughts and ideas are appreciated.

mdh
05-20-2007, 08:46 AM
Bryan, codes of conduct are easy to enforce against trolls, general jerks, etc. I've seen a lot of internet trolls and jerks in my day, and none of the people who've been involved in this thread fit that bill. Overly heavy-handed enforcement of codes of conduct also serves to turn people off, but so does constant bickering. Enforcing a code of conduct sometimes also activates in some people a genuinely rude side, which can even lead them to escalating issues and being banned, evading the bans, and generally starting all out wars. I've fought some of these wars, as an administrator of communities, and they are wholly unproductive. They waste the time of everyone involved, distract the community from the real issues, and often create upheavel that pulls in more people than just the original individual(s) involved. I would say that the best thing a moderator/admin can do in many situations where tension seems to be building is to contact people individually, and take the potential drama out of the public realm. This diffuses a lot of the tension immediately; the people involved often no longer feel that they need to maintain bravado in front of their peers, and in addition ensures that personal issues can be dealt with mano-a-mano, instead of in the public square. It also allows people to share feelings they may not want to share in public, but may be too shy to embarassed to initiate private communication. Taking control of a heated situation can be delicate and extremely challenging - and every now and then it turns out you *are* just dealing with a troll, but that generally becomes real obvious, real fast, in private, while they may work much harder on keeping up appearances in public.

Just my thoughts. Best wishes and king regards, Matt.

Bryan
05-20-2007, 09:29 AM
Thanks Matt, I agree with your position. The two best intervention methods that I've seen to deal with issues are to either lock a thread if is starts to get out of hand or move the thread to an off-topic area. PM is great too and non-intervention. Deleting posts never seems like a good way for regular uses but I still maintain that differ subforums can have different rules so in that way, there can be something for everyone.

mdh
05-20-2007, 09:37 AM
In my personal experiences, moving threads is good when the thread was... errr... in the wrong place to begin with. :)
Deleting threads is fine in the case of obvious trolls without substance - something containing only vulgarities, for example - or where the same thread is posted multiple times, either by accident or on purpose.
Things here seem to be going well in general so far. :)

Captain Shays
05-20-2007, 10:27 AM
Personally I like to go into Christian oriented forums and tout Ron Paul as the Christian's best hope.

I also like to tell people that he would legalize pot if I think that swhat they want to hear.

He's no conspiracy nut by any stretch but I point out to truthers that he would welcome an investigation into the standard story line.

I make signs that say "Christians for Ron Paul"

And I make signs that say "Deadheads for Ron Paul".

I certainly don't place the deadhead signs in fron of churches though. The Christian signs might work for some deadheads but not all.

The Real anti war candidate works for bringing in Democrats.

Strong on DEFENSE NOT MEDDLING might work for conservatives who understand the truth. Have no doubt, There are a lot of us out here. We just need to reach them and get them to vote in the primaries.

mdh
05-20-2007, 11:03 AM
Captain Shays has the idea.
And that's basically what my point is on the matter of tailoring our message when it comes to groups or individuals we're familiar with or have some clue of their leanings.

Hawaii Libertarian
05-20-2007, 01:01 PM
I think Bryan brought this up before, but I think the issues as defined on the official campaign web site should be a critical reference when members join this forum. Perhaps there should be a link at the Forum Guidelines at the top of this forum to the official campaign web site page which definitively defines the issues that Dr. Paul wishes to campaign on. Well meaning members with an intense interest in 9/11 truth, drug law reform, etc. may not realize that these are not listed as issues of the Paul campaign.

I have no problem with any special interest group getting a position from Dr. Paul on an issue, and certainly each member should talk up Dr. Paul among their peers and associates as they see fit.

Among the general public, however, there are certain hot-button themes that could be counterproductive in some segments of the electorate because ours is not a homogeneous nation. Unless you know a target audience really well, we're all better off presenting the issues as listed on the campaign web site for maximum effect.

A sub-board to discuss "secondary" issues off-topic might be appropriate, but it seems for some people, their issues are more important than the primary issues of the official campaign.

Just my 2 cents worth... :)

Brandybuck
05-20-2007, 01:18 PM
"Freedom for me, but not for thee." That seems to be the attitude of a few people here. They want the freedom to speak of their conspiracy theories, but they are unwilling to recognize the same freedom of those who disagree. It's absurd.

I think I have made one post on the forum where I told someone to shut up. I apologized afterwards. But I will not stop *warning* people about their speech. Recently I've even stopped trying to convince people that they are wrong about their conspiracies. Instead I've been reminding them to focus on Ron Paul's platform. That platform does not include the exposure of Roswell aliens or a faked moon landings.

Surprisingly, I've been told privately by some Truthers that they agree with me. Conspiracy theories are a distraction. Our common enemy is a bloated, oppressive, unjust and subjugating government. That is what we must focus on.