NFL HELL: Owners/TV networks face mounting losses as Trump called boycotts spread

[enhanced_deficit]

NFL HELL: Several Stadiums Nearly Empty As Anthem Protest Backlash Rolls Into Week 7 (PHOTOS)

by Joshua Caplan

Several NFL stadiums are nearly empty post kick-off as the National Anthem controversy rolls into week 7.




Plenty of empty seats visible at the Hard Rock Stadium in Florida as the New York Jets play the Miami Dolphins.
“Swaths of empty seats here post kickoff,” tweeted columnist Armando Salguero.
The Cleveland Browns are playing at home against the Tennessee Titans. Plenty of empty seats to go around.
More empty seats in Chicago as the Bears play the Carolina Panthers.



Lucas Oil Stadium has “tons,” of empty seats during the Indiana Colts vs Jacksonville Jaguars.
If the NFL thought Americans would ease the backlash against the league — they were sadly mistaken. Photos of empty stadiums from around the league show how dire a situation kneelers have spurred. Stadiums were nearly empty in Week 6, as well.
Breitbart News (http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017/10/16/backlash-week-6-nfl-reveals-several-nearly-empty-stadiums-fans-leave-league/) reports:
Note, that the Jets played New England on Sunday, meaning there should have been a big crowd for that game. The Texans, Atlanta, and Baltimore are also very relevant teams with relatively loyal fan bases. Yet, thousands upon thousands of fans no-showed or didn’t buy tickets for those games.

Here’s a shot (https://twitter.com/fistfulofdoom/status/919660847550619648?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fijr.com%2Fthe-declaration%2F2017%2F10%2F998358-nfl-boycott-full-force-empty-seats-show-just-powerful%2F)of the Jaguars stadium at kickoff:
Photos of empty stadiums comes amid a slew of disastrous polls shows how far the NFL’s popularity has dropped.
It’s common knowledge the left hates football and contact sports.

They have targeted football for years.

But now thanks to Roger Goodell their prayers are answered.

The NFL managed to pi$$ off their core audience by nearly 40 points in the last three weeks.

Nearly 60 percent of working class Trump supporters now view the NFL unfavorably.



View image on Twitter (https://twitter.com/EmptySeatsPics/status/922146756367929349/photo/1) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMwflKgWsAAvWYH.jpg:small (https://twitter.com/EmptySeatsPics/status/922146756367929349/photo/1)




https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/550168500094787584/n6cqe-Yr_normal.jpeg Empty Seats Galore @Empty (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=62816)SeatsPics

CBS earnings to disappoint due to weak NFL ratings, Credit Suisse says
https://www.cnbc.com/.../cbs-earnings-to-disappoint-due-to-weak-nfl-ratings-credit-su...
Declining NFL television ratings will lower CBS earnings, according to ... "We expect third-quarter network advertising to decline ...





Potentially-Related


(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444261-Is-the-ongoing-Surge-of-Police-State-in-America-a-Surge-of-Karma&)https://us-east-1.tchyn.io/snopes-production/uploads/2016/10/nflmeme.jpg
Obama official: MLK would love our wars! (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?430788-New-Obama-HS-Chief-MLK-would-love-our-wars%21&p=5273202&viewfull=1#post5273202)
A top Pentagon official says the antiwar civil rights leader would support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

http://media.salon.com/2011/01/obama_official_mlk_would_love_our_wars-460x307.jpg (http://media.salon.com/2011/01/obama_official_mlk_would_love_our_wars.jpg)
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Right: Jeh C. Johnson


(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444261-Is-the-ongoing-Surge-of-Police-State-in-America-a-Surge-of-Karma&)https://i.ytimg.com/vi/04q56SV9kmY/hqdefault.jpg
St. Louis Rams players enter stadium in "Hands Up, Don't Shoot!" pose (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463974-MO-St-Louis-Rams-players-enter-stadium-in-quot-Hands-Up-Don-t-Shoot%21-quot-pose&)


Hands up, Don't shoot (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?464362-Hands-up-Don-t-shoot&)

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/iraqwar2003-2011-111218145746-phpapp01/95/iraq-war-2003-2011-23-728.jpg?cb=1324220736
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/02/00/2CFCF0CC00000578-3256633-Students_staff_and_faculty_with_their_hands_up_are _evacuated_fro-a-8_1443743280201.jpg

http://www.peacemonger.org/assets/images/CM101.jpg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2030009.1417530495%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/congress-members-hands.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/0f/57/eb/0f57eb8e97caa1e29853c7410a025c65.jpg

[enhanced_deficit]

Have not seen any report or analysis in MSM yet if/how this could impact our ongoing freedom/democractic values/racial equality spread projects in Iraq, Syria, Benghazi, Africa, Afghanistan etc.

How the NFL sells (and profits from) the inextricable link between football and war (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?515289-How-the-NFL-sells-%28and-profits-from%29-the-inextricable-link-between-football-and-war&)

[euphemia]

When these teams have to fold and the left loses this vast wealth of taxes, they still won't get it.

[Schifference]

Aren't most of those seats sold by the season?

[Ender]

MY POV:

This is all bullshit.

No one should have to pray to the state; the National Anthem should never have been made the opening of ANY game or public gathering- it is nothing but state worship.


What’s Worth Standing For?

By Butler Shaffer

October 20, 2017

In America you can say anything you want, as long as it doesn’t have any effect.

– Paul Goodman

The vacuity of serious thought in America is revealed in so many instances that it is difficult to put together a top-ten list of candidates. Among the fatuous contenders is that involving the question of whether NFL players should stand for the playing of the national anthem. Not since the 1988 presidential campaign, when George W. Bush focused on the sanctity of the Pledge of Allegiance to satisfy members of the boobeoisie to elect him president, has so much mental energy been spent on such a hollow topic.

Patriotic rituals serve one purpose: to reinforce the conditioning begun in childhood with flag salutes and daily Pledges of Allegiance, reminding the citizens of a state that their lives are subservient to the collective interests of the established order. Where hundreds or thousands of individuals gather for an event of common interest – such as sporting events – the dynamics of mass psychology can be mobilized to remind those in attendance of the importance of commitments to matters that transcend the interests of their home team. Out come the flags accompanied by color-guards; a military band; and a singer to lead the crowd in the statist hymn: The Star-Spangled Banner.

The refusal of athletes or fans to stand for this observance of state dominance, is a public challenge to the homogenization of obedience to constituted authority; an admission that some – if only a handful – may be stepping to A Libertarian Critique... Butler Shaffer Buy New $5.50 (as of 11:24 EDT - Details) the beat of a different drummer than the one in the Marine Corps band. The fear that not everyone is committed to group-thinking is what bothered Ron Paul’s critics when he was in Congress. His dissent cast in a 434-1 vote on a bill was certainly no threat to its enactment, but that it raised the specter of dissent challenged the political mantra e pluribus unum. The “One” that all collectivists insist upon cannot be maintained if some are able to get away with not playing the game.

Statists have long exploited dead soldiers in the peddling of guilt on behalf of their ambitions for power. We are told we “should honor the sacrifice of those who fought and died to protect our freedom.” As often as I have heard this plea, I have yet to have anyone inform me of any liberty I enjoy by virtue of soldiers going to foreign countries, at risk to their own lives, to kill people! Of what is one “free” when fighting or killing others? Soldiers fight because they are ordered to do so, and the selection of the “enemy” is made by persons who have absolutely no interest in benefiting or protecting me.

In a televised press conference, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell tried his best to resolve the contradictions that abound in all of politics. While stating that the NFL was “trying to stay out of politics” in this dispute, he failed to recognize that the national anthem is about nothing but politics. He acknowledged that the anthem is “an important part of our game.” How can this be? Does the home-team get six points added to their score if they out-sing the visiting fans? If this music is such an “important” part of the game, have you ever seen people at a football or baseball game leave the stadium once the anthem has been performed?

If the national anthem is of such importance, why do we not perform it in everything we do? Is breakfast, or the start of our workday, or going to a grocery store, or undergoing root-canal work at the dentist’s, to be preceded by this tune? Do we refrain from extending such collective foolishness into our daily lives because the numbers of persons are not sufficient to convert individuals into fungible components of a mob?

There is one very effective way for the NFL and other sectors of the entertainment world to end the squabbling over whether fans and players should stand for this song. As it has absolutely no bearing on the content or performance of the games people come to watch, stop playing it altogether. No more than people should be expected to sing “fight on for USC” when attending an opera, should they be expected to sing hymns to the state.

Perhaps a little history will put the National Anthem in perspective. It is known by every school-child that Francis Scott Key was the author of the poem upon which the anthem is based. What is not so well-known is that Key was a lawyer who not only owned slaves, but defended the practice. Like Abraham Lincoln, Key represented slaveowners, and regarded slaves as “an inferior race of people.” He strongly opposed the abolition movement. As district attorney for Washington, D.C., he prosecuted abolitionists and enjoined the publication and distribution of abolitionist literature. The music to which Key’s poem was set, was taken from the song “Anacreon in Heaven,” an 18th century tune sung in a London gentlemen’s club. The song celebrated drinking and sex.

Perhaps the NFL players are onto something!
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/10/butler-shaffer/whats-worth-standing-for/

Maybe Mr. MAGA President should just keep his ugly mouth shut?

[enhanced_deficit]

Have not followed this closely and know just cursory details of these anthem kneeling events aimed to protest against racial discrimination/injustice/police brurtality. While back had watched a documentary that depicted some civil rights activists "taking a knee" in a different way by refusing to go to Vietnam to support freedom war there against communism. Anyone knows if current protests are limited to NFL anthems only or any equality activists have refused to go to freedom wars in Iraq, Niger, Syria etc as had happened in past decades protests?

[euphemia]

MY POV:

This is all bull$#@!.

Say what you want. Free market forces at work.

[oyarde]

No kneeling today in Minnesota .

[euphemia]

That's good to hear. Fans are definitely making their voices heard. Empty stands does not bode well for next season's sales. Merchandising is down, too.

[Pauls' Revere]

I stopped watching years ago. Bunch of criminals anyway. From murder to child abuse.

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/arrests/

[nobody's_hero]

For me, it's mostly about the NFL/ESPN/MSN pushing this bullshitt narrative that America is such a racist shitthole, just so god-awful that even Hell itself sends its sinners here for bad behavior.

People get tired of hearing that nonsense over and over and over. It's why Trump won. It's why he'll win again if he wants to run, because the Left hasn't learned a thing since last year. They can keep crying about racism and white privilege. The wolf finally ate the crying boy. The rest of us have moved on.

[euphemia]

I stopped watching years ago. Bunch of criminals anyway. From murder to child abuse.

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/arrests/

This has come up in the comments on news articles. It is certainly a point to consider. People who quit watching because of the anthem controversy are now reflecting on whether the NFL represents their values at all. When PacMan Jones was here we practically had a whole precinct just to look after him.

[Anti Federalist]

Good.

Stupid distraction in the first place.

[Anti Federalist]

I stopped watching years ago. Bunch of criminals anyway. From murder to child abuse.

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/arrests/

This.


For me, it's mostly about the NFL/ESPN/MSN pushing this bullshitt narrative that America is such a racist shitthole, just so god-awful that even Hell itself sends its sinners here for bad behavior.

People get tired of hearing that nonsense over and over and over. It's why Trump won. It's why he'll win again if he wants to run, because the Left hasn't learned a thing since last year. They can keep crying about racism and white privilege. The wolf finally ate the crying boy. The rest of us have moved on.

And this.

[The Northbreather]

MY POV:

This is all bull$#@!.

No one should have to pray to the state; the National Anthem should never have been made the opening of ANY game or public gathering- it is nothing but state worship.



Maybe Mr. MAGA President should just keep his ugly mouth shut?

I agree with you %100 but I believe that people are not only siding with Trump because they agree with this uber-patriotism bull-shit.

It's likely that the fans are sick of the constant grandstanding, victim mentally, and general protest culture invading what might be the last vestige of santcioned male camaraderie for us middle class tax slaves.

Kinda like how Trump won the election.

Not everyone likes him but they definitely prefer him and the western culture that birthed him over whatever this new version of pc/safetyism/egalitarianism/feminism/globalism/racism/reparationism is...

Disgust with the hypocrite media is a factor as well I'm sure..

The Donald is the master of harnessing this discord and adding his brand name to another perceived Trump win! This is what he is goodexcellent at doing.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[Carlybee]

MY POV:

This is all bull$#@!.

No one should have to pray to the state; the National Anthem should never have been made the opening of ANY game or public gathering- it is nothing but state worship.


https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/10/butler-shaffer/whats-worth-standing-for/

Maybe Mr. MAGA President should just keep his ugly mouth shut?

I agree but anything with the word "National" preceding it is well..you know.

[Carlybee]

Maybe George Soros can pay to fill them.

[Pauls' Revere]

This has come up in the comments on news articles. It is certainly a point to consider. People who quit watching because of the anthem controversy are now reflecting on whether the NFL represents their values at all. When PacMan Jones was here we practically had a whole precinct just to look after him.

I think in my article search there was a stat which mentioned that as a profession/occupation 21% have a criminal record of some degree.

[Ender]

I think in my article search there was a stat which mentioned that as a profession/occupation 21% have a criminal record of some degree.

Here's the link on NFL criminal stats:

http://nflarrest.com/


NFL Arrest provides an interactive visualized database of National Football League player Arrests & Charges. Learn about your rival team's history with the law, break down arrests by Player, Position, Crime and Team. Keep in mind there are 1700 NFL Players and their arrest rates are lower than the USA arrest rate.

I'm not a football fan but I do not understand why some Liberty Lovers are so quick to condemn peaceful protestors and incensed because these guys make big money. These guys are not Antifa- they are not causing riots or deaths.

And here we've got a president who is knocking them on twitter and saying they are baaaad because they don't worship the flag; he is breaking successful businesses because of his ego, instead of letting business and the public make their own decisions.

As far as the "values" spoken of by euphemia, just what values are we talking about? Respecting killing millions in other countries where we should not be? Respecting the continual loss of freedom while pretending that the US is not an empire of lies?

Sounds to me like we're back to the:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[nobody's_hero]

I agree with you %100 but I believe that people are not only siding with Trump because they agree with this uber-patriotism bull-$#@!.

It's likely that the fans are sick of the constant grandstanding, victim mentally, and general protest culture invading what might be the last vestige of santcioned male camaraderie for us middle class tax slaves.

Kinda like how Trump won the election.

Not everyone likes him but they definitely prefer him and the western culture that birthed him over whatever this new version of pc/safetyism/egalitarianism/feminism/globalism/racism/reparationism is...

Disgust with the hypocrite media is a factor as well I'm sure..

The Donald is the master of harnessing this discord and adding his brand name to another perceived Trump win! This is what he is goodexcellent at doing.

If I were better with words, I'd have put it like that ^^^

[jmdrake]

Prior to the start of the 2017 season there were boycotts being launched because Kaepernick didn't have a job after he refused to stand last season. Those protests are still going on. So there is no way to tell which protests are causing the NFL to lose viewers.

[tod evans]

Prior to the start of the 2017 season there were boycotts being launched because Kaepernick didn't have a job after he refused to stand last season. Those protests are still going on. So there is no way to tell which protests are causing the NFL to lose viewers.

They lost me about the time Joe Namath went on the Tee-Vee in pantyhose.

[jmdrake]

They lost me about the time Joe Namath went on the Tee-Vee in pantyhose.

LOL. I'm not going to admit to being old enough to remember that.

[H. E. Panqui]

...but I do not understand why some Liberty Lovers are so quick to condemn peaceful protestors and incensed because these guys make big money....

As far as the "values" spoken of by @euphemia (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=22770), just what values are we talking about? Respecting killing millions in other countries where we should not be? Respecting the continual loss of freedom while pretending that the US is not an empire of lies?

...great writing/thinking...it seems only a republican-radio-level cheerleader [certainly no true 'liberty lover'] would/could quibble...

...true 'liberty lovers' understand that the stinking war on drugs--supported strongly by most/all republican-radio-levelers--has been one of the worst pieces of public polic(e)y ever conceived...the stinking authoritarian republican-radio-level 'drug war' is a big factor contributing to the degradation of 'inner cities'...but imo, the biggest factor is the stinking rotten insane monetary order NEVER honestly understood by the typical loud republicrat flag-waving fool...these pathetic fascist republicrat cheerleaders are part of the LARGE ignorant class referred to by one smart wag: "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

[euphemia]

Because these people are not protesting a real problem. 80% of the league is black. About 21% of the league are criminals. They are oppressed? They face injustice? More like they are entitled and cause injustice. Ask their wives and girlfriends.

[Anti Federalist]

LOL. I'm not going to admit to being old enough to remember that.

Hahaha I remember that.

[tod evans]

Hahaha I remember that.

:D

[enhanced_deficit]

I'm not a football fan but I do not understand why some Liberty Lovers are so quick to condemn peaceful protestors and incensed because these guys make big money. These guys are not Antifa- they are not causing riots or deaths.
...

Do they really not want to be part of oppression regimes and are standing up for human rights & justice or this is part of media supported showboating events campaign (like DGP Obama's hypocritical "if I had a son" publicity stunt hypocrisy drama)? Ofcourse there was no "if I had a sister" speech after unarmed black mother Miriam Carey was executed by elite DC cops at the foot steps of Obama White House with her baby daughter sitting besides her in passenger seat after she had taken a wrong traffic turn . Ofcourse there were no kneelings sighted as Congress gave standing ovation to elite DC cops and lawyer of Miriam's family was promptly arrested day after he went on TV to talk of seeking justice.

Maybe it's not just racial, skin color, tribal affiliation/identity based media neocons sponsored publicity event, but there can be plausible reasons to doubt the real political agenda of puppet masters behind such a campaign. Will media have same stance towards kneelers/Trump if Trump had not cut off support for ISIS in Syria that he had accused Obama of founding fathering?
Quite a few of these human rights activists were supporting disgraced dronegangsta till the end of his regime who was puppet/public relationing officer of some of the most oppressive, violence engineeering, police state reinforcing lobbies in the world.





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[CaptUSA]

Lol - I just think it's funny how easily the public is manipulated. Free market forces at work?? Yeah, maybe. But the people who are making these individual decisions have absolutely zero idea about how they're being used.

I like the game of football and enjoy watching it. If you don't, then don't watch. But to alter your behavior because someone is raising the temperature to frighten all the snowflakes??? Come on. I've said it before that if I were to boycott everything that offended me in some way, I'd never go outside the house! I'm offended by the state. I'm offended by the companies that the state uses to do their bidding. I'm offended by companies that use the government to do their bidding. That is the real offense.

Watch, don't watch. I don't care. But don't think you've claimed any sort of moral superiority - you've just signaled yourself as a tool.

Same thing for standing. Stand up, sit down, roll around on the ground, do the worm... I don't care. Just make good plays. And criminal records?? Can we start with Congress, please? If the players are convicted of a crime, they should do the time. If they're still able to play afterwards, great! But it's wealth and fame that gets these people off - which is much larger than football. If you're really outraged by wealthy celebrities not facing justice, you need to boycott Sports, Hollywood, Television, Politics, and nearly all corporations, too. Don't be so easily cajoled.

[shakey1]

They lost me about the time Joe Namath went on the Tee-Vee in pantyhose.

best just to get & keep the flag & military BS out of sports altogether.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lAsxblKVPIg/T15kHWW59iI/AAAAAAAAATs/RpidR2iB-jc/s1600/JoePantyhose.jpg

[euphemia]

I don't think anyone is claiming moral high ground. I am a little tire of underperforming prima donas acting like they need to make a statement about something not based in actual fact. If they want to make statements, do so on the facts, and do something meaningful.

But the NFL has not dealt with problems in the league. Now they are losing fans. Tickets, viewers, and merchandising are all down. It's a basic market principle. Don't pi$$ off the people who pay the bills.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm not a football fan but I do not understand why some Liberty Lovers are so quick to condemn peaceful protestors and incensed because these guys make big money.

I am angry (seething, fulminating, pulling my hair out, white hot rage guy) because this "movement" or whatever you want to call it, took the issue of the expanding police state, police abuse, the Circular Force Continuum, asset forfeiture, cops killing dogs, grenading kids and SWATting old men and proceeded to, through a painful to watch, reductio ad absurdum of racial and identity politics, turn the whole issue into a black vs. white matter, thus destroying any hope of actually making any progress, right when it looked like "mainstream AmeriKa" might actually have been starting to pay attention.

Got stopped by a cop while driving a company truck the other day.

After the brief and non-citation issuing incident was over, black guy in the back piped up with: "Huh, lucky a white man was driving, if it had been me, I would have got shot."

I unloaded on the dude and proceeded to let him know, in no uncertain terms, how I was just as likely, even more likely, to get shot and that he better get to understanding that this is not black vs white it is blue vs. us.

Since this dude has a chip on his shoulder about race and white people, I fully expect to be brought up on "charges" before the HR people for dressing him down in front of everybody like I did.

How much money they make has nothing to do with it, nor does it matter to me whether they sit, stand or do the hokey pokey while the national anthem is playing.

Actually I hope they keep it up, because I have disliked the rent seeking, government teat suckling, NFL for years now anyway.

[Origanalist]

I am angry (seething, fulminating, pulling my hair out, white hot rage guy) because this "movement" or whatever you want to call it, took the issue of the expanding police state, police abuse, the Circular Force Continuum, asset forfeiture, cops killing dogs, grenading kids and SWATting old men and proceeded to, through a painful to watch, reductio ad absurdum of racial and identity politics, turn the whole issue into a black vs. white matter, thus destroying any hope of actually making any progress, right when it looked like "mainstream AmeriKa" might actually have been starting to pay attention.

Got stopped by a cop while driving a company truck the other day.

After the brief and non-citation issuing incident was over, black guy in the back piped up with: "Huh, lucky a white man was driving, if it had been me, I would have got shot."

I unloaded on the dude and proceeded to let him know, in no uncertain terms, how I was just as likely, even more likely, to get shot and that he better get to understanding that this is not black vs white it is blue vs. us.

Since this dude has a chip on his shoulder about race and white people, I fully expect to be brought up on "charges" before the HR people for dressing him down in front of everybody like I did.

How much money they make has nothing to do with it, nor does it matter to me whether they sit, stand or do the hokey pokey while the national anthem is playing.

Actually I hope they keep it up, because I have disliked the rent seeking, government teat suckling, NFL for years now anyway.

This has been the problem with these asshats from the start. Just when people seem to be waking up to the fact that the police just might be a little out of line and trampling everyone's rights at will a bunch of race baiting race pimps turn it into an "us against them" issue.

[CaptUSA]

It's a basic market principle. Don't pi$$ off the people who pay the bills.

Ah, if that's all it was, I'd be with you. But that's not what's going on here. Now it's, "Don't give powerful people a reason to use you as a distraction to get people pissed at you."

I'm all for the market dictating things. But I much prefer a natural process. I certainly don't like government putting a finger on the scale, but I also don't like the powerful using the media to put a finger on the scale.

[CaptUSA]

This has been the problem with these asshats from the start. Just when people seem to be waking up to the fact that the police just might be a little out of line and trampling everyone's rights at will a bunch of race baiting race pimps turn it into an "us against them" issue.

Exactly. Although, it is an "us against them" issue. It's just that the "us" is the citizenry and the "them" is the State.

[euphemia]

I don't think all police are bad and I don't think they all wake up deciding to harm people. I also don't think all police incidents are accidents. I don't think we can broad brush all police officers and police departments and say this is a blue issue.

Like everything else, I think there are places where political correctness is running the show, and those are the forces we really can't see. Equal protection under the law has to be the rule.

[tod evans]

I am angry (seething, fulminating, pulling my hair out, white hot rage guy) because this "movement" or whatever you want to call it, took the issue of the expanding police state, police abuse, the Circular Force Continuum, asset forfeiture, cops killing dogs, grenading kids and SWATting old men and proceeded to, through a painful to watch, reductio ad absurdum of racial and identity politics, turn the whole issue into a black vs. white matter, thus destroying any hope of actually making any progress, right when it looked like "mainstream AmeriKa" might actually have been starting to pay attention.




Count me the odd duck, I'll not stand with blacks or kops, they can all collectively kiss my hillbilly ass.

And the foo-ball players too! :mad:

[Origanalist]

Count me the odd duck, I'll not stand with blacks or kops, they can all collectively kiss my hillbilly ass.

And the foo-ball players too! :mad:

Men in tights....

[tod evans]

Men in tights....

Exactly!

Unfortunately I'm outta rep...:(

[H. E. Panqui]

....some small-minded republican-radio-level authoritarians have tried to lump the protesters all into one tiny box...but there are probably as many reasons for protest as there are protesters...

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/9/28/16376500/nfl-protests-2017-kneeling-national-anthem-why

"...We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless.
After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/254765/nate-boyer), a retired Green Beret and former NFL player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel (https://www.colorofchange.org/campaigns/kneel-with-colin-kaepernick/), rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.

The message that the players are trying to send has been misconstrued. Some have said that the players are attempting to disrespect the country, national anthem, flag, and military by taking a knee — that is incorrect. Part of the confusion came from initial misunderstanding, and it grew when Trump spoke at his rally in Alabama.
The players are simply protesting systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality, and the criminal justice system. The national anthem is just the vehicle for the protest.

[euphemia]

If anything the criminal justice system has failed the people around NFL players. Ask Rae Carruth's girlfriend. Oh, you can't. She's dead. He's in jail. He should be. Lawrence Phillips dragged his girlfriend down the stairs and slammed her head against a mailbox. He was never prosecuted for that. He's in prison now, but the system failed in that case. Ask Janay Rice. Her then-fiance knocked her cold in an elevator. Michael Vick abused animals.

These are not the people to be protesting anything to do with police or justice.

[otherone]

If anything the criminal justice system has failed the people around NFL players. Ask Rae Carruth's girlfriend. Oh, you can't. She's dead. He's in jail. He should be. Lawrence Phillips dragged his girlfriend down the stairs and slammed her head against a mailbox. He was never prosecuted for that. He's in prison now, but the system failed in that case. Ask Janay Rice. Her then-fiance knocked her cold in an elevator. Michael Vick abused animals.

These are not the people to be protesting anything to do with police or justice.

You have a picture of the aforementioned kneeling?

[bunklocoempire]

Empty private stadiums, or empty publicly funded stadiums?

Screw 'em all.

Survivor of Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome.

[otherone]

I don't think all police are bad and I don't think they all wake up deciding to harm people. I also don't think all police incidents are accidents. I don't think we can broad brush all police officers and police departments and say this is a blue issue.


It most certainly is a blue issue. When cops are routinely, consistently, predictably vindicated for obvious criminal behavior, it is a blue issue.

[Zippyjuan]

People aren't boycotting because of the protesting (most of those who said they were going to probably weren't going to attend any games anyways). The league has continuing problems with tickets being too expensive and a poorer product on the field. It isn't Trump Tweets which are the problem.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/too-many-bad-teams-awful-quarterback-play-making-nfl-games-hard-to-watch/

Too many bad teams, awful quarterback play making NFL games hard to watch

People are staying away from the NFL. Viewership is down and empty seats are up compared to the record ratings of a few years ago. It's hard to argue that fact.

Any camera angle that panned across the upper deck in any number of stadiums Sunday confirmed that fact. The issues with ratings are well-documented. It has become convenient to blame that phenomenon, at least in part, on the ongoing issues of player demonstrations but now, nearly a season-and-a-half since Colin Kaepernick first took a knee, I'm not buying it. There's some protesting going on, without a doubt, but it's fans protesting the product being put on the field, I believe, more than any pronounced reaction to a handful of players displaying their Constitutional rights before kickoff.

This downturn in the number of eyeballs watching closely every Sunday and Monday and Thursday is more directly related, in my opinion, to the fact that the number of quarterbacks you would pay big bucks to see in a game with no rooting interest seems to be shrinking by the week. It's a byproduct of the number of teams who fail to play anything close to attractive football, and who haven't found or developed a skill player who would garner a second look. It's a factor of yet another weekend when injuries ravaged the already-depleted QB position, and America was treated to the likes of guys like Matt Moore, Drew Stanton and Cody Kessler playing in games that count in the standings, to go with the likes of Brett Hundley and Case Keenum and Mitchell Trubisky and C.J. Beathard who have already been thrust into action due to injury or the ineffectiveness of others.

The NFL has altered the rules and tilted the field for the offense over the past few decades. There's nothing more it can do to subsidize scoring. Problem is, the way some of these teams have been constructed and coached, it really doesn't matter. Far too many teams and far too many quarterbacks are simply too hard to watch -- or at least watch regularly -- and it says here that has more to do with the sustained ratings dip than people boycotting because of anthem demonstrations or anything else.

Peyton Manning and Tony Romo are retired and not coming back. Andrew Luck and Aaron Rodgers won't be throwing a football in a game that matters for a long time.



More at link.

[Pauls' Revere]

I'm tired of everything being politicized. A simple football game turns into a shit storm over nothing. Latest I heard is that "Kap" will stop kneeling if someone signs him on. LOL so all this was to put financial and PR pressure on the league (and fans) so he could get a job? wtf, who does that?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Maybe George Soros can pay to fill them.


The Zipper John Group can fill the seats!

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Here's the link on NFL criminal stats:

http://nflarrest.com/


Keep in mind there are 1700 NFL Players and their arrest rates are lower than the USA arrest rate.






Yep; I was just about to post this until I read your post. If I remember right--it was a study showing that the per capita crime rate is generally lower among athletes than the population at large.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...to the fact that the number of quarterbacks you would pay big bucks to see in a game with no rooting interest seems to be shrinking by the week.





Oh pleez. Who wrote that article? Some 90 year old geezer pining for Blanda and Bart Starr? Or maybe some ADHD millenial who lost all his "fantasy football" picks.

Players always get injured. Nothing new.

Deshaun Watson is leading the league. Tom Brady is--what?--40 years old and still going strong. You have Alex Smith and Russell Wilson is still in there. Hasn't Wentz been playing well?

This stuff goes in cycles. Attention spans are shorter these days, so it's probably the downturn. Just like when the NBA took a turn after the retirements of guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Jabbar, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson, Isaiah, Drexler, Olajuwon, Parrish, Worthy, McHale, Pippin,and some others.

NFL had its moments and now the spectator torch will be passed to another league.

[nobody's_hero]

If anything the criminal justice system has failed the people around NFL players. Ask Rae Carruth's girlfriend. Oh, you can't. She's dead. He's in jail. He should be. Lawrence Phillips dragged his girlfriend down the stairs and slammed her head against a mailbox. He was never prosecuted for that. He's in prison now, but the system failed in that case. Ask Janay Rice. Her then-fiance knocked her cold in an elevator. Michael Vick abused animals.

These are not the people to be protesting anything to do with police or justice.

That's kind of a caveat, isn't it? I too would like to become enraged about cops killing black folk during encounters, but for a lot of the case studies there've been a series of life choices that led up to the encounter that put a damper on things. Someone getting shot while loading groceries in his car to feed his family is a bit more emotionally relatable than a guy getting shot while running out of a broken display window with a pair of stolen Nike shoes under each arm. That doesn't excuse cops being put on paid vacation for wrongful death, but the perpetrator's demise not something I'd get my panties in a wad over because even if the police didn't exist and some random shop-owner chased him down and beat the #*% out of the looter, I'd still see it as karma. I wish I could award your political incorrectness with some reputation but alas, I must spread some around.

I know, I know that'll draw the ire of the kumbaya coalition hopefuls here on RPF (I await the flame), but I think we'll probably see the state collapse under its own weight before you ever see some truly groundbreaking cooperation between the left and the right to beat back the leviathan.

[euphemia]

It most certainly is a blue issue. When cops are routinely, consistently, predictably vindicated for obvious criminal behavior, it is a blue issue.

Aganst NFL players? They have no beef with cops. Cops aid and abet them at every turn.

On the other hand, American tennis player James Blake has been manhandled by police for no reason. He has something to complain about.

[helmuth_hubener]

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist. Oh Ender, dear Ender, if they would havecome for the Socialists, and done a thorough stinkin' job, we would not be having these problems!

Socialists are the actual, literal enemy of us libertarians. And here you are expressing sympathy and love for them, lamenting that anything bad might have ever happened to hinder them in their campaign of worldwide destruction. Whoops! Tactical error! Time to backtrack, fast!

Liberty does not include the 'liberty' to destroy liberty. That would be a logical contradiction; in fact, that's not strong enough: it would be utter nonsense. A socialist or communist individual is, according to the libertarian, nothing more than a deranged and toxic criminal, loudly advertising his intention to rob and victimize you, to destroy you and your family and also -- far more ambitious than the run-of-the-mill typical low-life criminal -- to rip down and destroy everything you hold dear, everything you love, all the institutions and civilization you and your ancestors have built, in order to build a new society that will be in accordance with his own toxic, crazed, egalitarian fever-dreams. Of course, being insipidly lazy and malicious, as criminals predictably are, he never gets around to devoting any attention to the 'building up a new society' part, which would be impossible anyway, due to the severe non-reality of his delusions; instead he is content to devote all his malignant energies to tearing down the existing one.

Socialists, like all other incorrigible criminal types, must be physically removed from society, if that society is to continue to exist. You cannot have a peaceful, happy neighborhood based on respect for each other's property rights if instead of neighbors you are surrounded by freaks who want to utterly remove your property rights.

[helmuth_hubener]

a guy getting shot while running out of a broken display window with a pair of stolen Nike shoes under each arm. That doesn't excuse cops being put on paid vacation for wrongful death What you just described is a rightful death.

[Anti Federalist]

People aren't boycotting because of the protesting (most of those who said they were going to probably weren't going to attend any games anyways). The league has continuing problems with tickets being too expensive and a poorer product on the field. It isn't Trump Tweets which are the problem.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/too-many-bad-teams-awful-quarterback-play-making-nfl-games-hard-to-watch/

More at link.

That's an opinion piece in which the author believes that the protests have nothing to do with it.

And that's ridiculous on the face of it.

Certainly the protests have had a negative effect.

That's not to say the speed and quality of the game play is not sub-par either or that tickets to live game are outrageously expensive.

But you and the NFL are out of your minds if you think these protests are not causing a great many people in the NFL's core customer demographic to walk away.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm tired of everything being politicized.

This is what happens when a leftist revolution sweeps over a nation.

Everything becomes political and everything you do is viewed and judged and reported on through a lens of state approved political filters.

[euphemia]

Yep; I was just about to post this until I read your post. If I remember right--it was a study showing that the per capita crime rate is generally lower among athletes than the population at large.

But these are the new elite. The are idols of popular culture. They have enjoyed every single privilege available. They are supposedly better people. They should be committing no crime. Or at least only white collar crime.

[nobody's_hero]

Oh Ender, dear Ender, if they would havecome for the Socialists, and done a thorough stinkin' job, we would not be having these problems!

I don't think 'they' want to come for the socialists. The only true enemies of the powers that be are the people who refute and oppose them, not those who worship them.

Niemöller's poem in today's terms would be more like:

"First they came for the libertarians and that was it. The end."

Not quite as inspirational I suppose.

[dannno]

That's an opinion piece in which the author believes that the protests have nothing to do with it.

And that's ridiculous on the face of it.

Certainly the protests have had a negative effect.

That's not to say the speed and quality of the game play is not sub-par either or that tickets to live game are outrageously expensive.

But you and the NFL are out of your minds if you think these protests are not causing a great many people in the NFL's core customer demographic to walk away.

Ya it's just making the decision that much easier.

[dannno]

But these are the new elite. The are idols of popular culture. They have enjoyed every single privilege available. They are supposedly better people. They should be committing no crime. Or at least only white collar crime.

Nah, athletes tend to have high "T". I dunno why on earth you would think they are "better people". They are more well off, so they don't have to commit as much property crime.

[euphemia]

That's what I'm saying. They are not better people. But they think their public displays of ignorance make them better people. These are the privileged elite. This is why people are so angry. These players have been given more than they deserve because they are athletic. They have all been to college and most of them can't put noun and verb together to make a sentence. Yet they claim to have some sort of experience that makes them qualified to make a statement. They don't even understand the statement. They have so little understanding of people that they can't see how their demonstrations are perceived by the public. That's just dumb.

[Ender]

Oh Ender, dear Ender, if they would havecome for the Socialists, and done a thorough stinkin' job, we would not be having these problems!

Socialists are the actual, literal enemy of us libertarians. And here you are expressing sympathy and love for them, lamenting that anything bad might have ever happened to hinder them in their campaign of worldwide destruction. Whoops! Tactical error! Time to backtrack, fast!

Liberty does not include the 'liberty' to destroy liberty. That would be a logical contradiction; in fact, that's not strong enough: it would be utter nonsense. A socialist or communist individual is, according to the libertarian, nothing more than a deranged and toxic criminal, loudly advertising his intention to rob and victimize you, to destroy you and your family and also -- far more ambitious than the run-of-the-mill typical low-life criminal -- to rip down and destroy everything you hold dear, everything you love, all the institutions and civilization you and your ancestors have built, in order to build a new society that will be in accordance with his own toxic, crazed, egalitarian fever-dreams. Of course, being insipidly lazy and malicious, as criminals predictably are, he never gets around to devoting any attention to the 'building up a new society' part, which would be impossible anyway, due to the severe non-reality of his delusions; instead he is content to devote all his malignant energies to tearing down the existing one.

Socialists, like all other incorrigible criminal types, must be physically removed from society, if that society is to continue to exist. You cannot have a peaceful, happy neighborhood based on respect for each other's property rights if instead of neighbors you are surrounded by freaks who want to utterly remove your property rights.

Interesting.

I believe they said the same thing about the Jews in that day.

Freedom is only for the pure, amirite? INSTEAD OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AND CONVERTING THEM TO TRUTH THROUGH COMPASSION, LET'S JUST:

"Remove freak Socialists physically from society, so MY society can continue to exist."

Tell me how that is any different than the very ones YOU condemn.

[Ender]

That's what I'm saying. They are not better people. But they think their public displays of ignorance make them better people. These are the privileged elite. This is why people are so angry. These players have been given more than they deserve because they are athletic. They have all been to college and most of them can't put noun and verb together to make a sentence. Yet they claim to have some sort of experience that makes them qualified to make a statement. They don't even understand the statement. They have so little understanding of people that they can't see how their demonstrations are perceived by the public. That's just dumb.

Privileged elite.........

I'd say that was Trump, who uses every possible scenario to pump his ego; none of this would be a massive deal if he would STFU.

And, do you have any idea what it takes for most players to make a team? The physical work, practice & skills they must go through? What about artists, musicians, actors, writers?

Do you realize that not too long ago blacks were considered too stupid to play basketball? Look what they have achieved.

And they have every right to make a statement about anything, just as YOU do.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

But these are the new elite. The are idols of popular culture. They have enjoyed every single privilege available. They are supposedly better people. They should be committing no crime. Or at least only white collar crime.

They have marketable skill that they parlay into a good job.

They are not obligated to you or anyone else in John Q. Public. If you want so-called "role models," then look to parents, siblings, relatives, preachers, teachers, scout leaders, etc.

This idea that a guy who bats around a round object owes you something beyond the 3 hour performance you paid for is classic modern day entitlement absurdity.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I am actually a little surprised that these imbecile NFL fans are this butthurt. Guess I should not be surprised. I like watching, but the whole military worship-breast cancer fawning-blah blah blah was wearing thin. I watch on Sunday less and less. These NFL clown owners will learn the hard way that they're not the only game in town. The entertainment dollar is more competitive these days. Hell, you can make your own entertainment. Ride a horse. Grow a garden. Enjoy the sunshine. Play a game yourself.

Donald Trump is a cock sucker and that's all there is to it. He is a petty human being who wants to control everything around him. I can't imagine people working for that dumb prick. It seems he never got the punch in the face and the total ass beating that he so richly deserved. He got a couple of things right by sticking it to the media and calling out the statue people with the Jefferson-Washington examples, but any gain he made there was totally squandered with this debacle. He is petty and miserable fool who deserves little to no respect. Fuck him.

[euphemia]

And they have every right to make a statement about anything, just as YOU do.

Not in a stadium funded by my tax dollars.

[enhanced_deficit]

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/42/67/45/9140566/13/rawImage.jpg

October 23, 2017
NFL Empty Seats Galore Go Viral In Online Pictures: Veterans Day Boycott Calls For Vacant Stadiums

Roz Zurko
Associated Press journalists counted 22 NFL players across the many teams kneeling or doing something other than acknowledging the National Anthem during the NFL games on Sunday. They also noticed something else — empty seats and lots of them! Photographers preferred to use pictures to tell the story of the unusual lack of attendance for the Sunday games and those pictures have gone viral. The 22 players are a small number in comparison to previous weeks, but as long as any of the players kneel, fans are opting to show their own protests (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nfl-players-national-anthem-protests-sunday-october-22/) by not going to the games, reports CBS News.
According to another article from CBS News, “any camera that panned across (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/too-many-bad-teams-awful-quarterback-play-making-nfl-games-hard-to-watch/) the upper deck in any number of stadiums Sunday confirmed the fact.”

https://www.inquisitr.com/4572435/nfl-empty-seats-galore-go-viral-in-online-pictures-veterans-day-boycott-calls-for-vacant-stadiums/



Florida man hires pilot to fly 'Boycott Jags, NFL' banner over stadium amid anthem protests

http://www.ajc.com/rf/image_large/Pub/p8/CmgSharedContent/2017/10/17/Images/Banner_1508107030708_9474010_ver1.0_640_360-RBmdrNHEKKKFZ3N5oQPApxN-680x383%40CmgSharedContent.com.jpg
ActionNewsJax.com
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. A man from Green Cove Springs, Florida, took his issues with the Jacksonville Jaguars and the NFL to the sky Sunday (http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/green-cove-springs-man-finances-plane-to-pull-boycott-jags-nfl-banner-above-everbank-field/625137675).






Jerry Jones flip flop?
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XKZILcFeiMQ/hqdefault.jpg
Jerry Jones: Cowboys ‘will not play’ if they disrespect flag
ARLINGTON, Texas (AP) — Dallas owner Jerry Jones said the NFL can’t leave the impression it tolerates players disrespecting the flag and any Cowboys making such displays won’t play.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Jerry Jones: Cowboys ‘will not play’ if they disrespect flag



Jerry Jones. LOL. There's another dumbass. Hooking up with skanks.

Isn't he still married? Guess he knows a little something about both subjects of "disrespect" and kneeling:



http://jerseygirlsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Jerry_Jones_photos.jpg

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Role models! ROLE MODELS!!!!

LOL


http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/images/306529.jpg

[Swordsmyth]

Interesting.

I believe they said the same thing about the Jews in that day.

Freedom is only for the pure, amirite? INSTEAD OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AND CONVERTING THEM TO TRUTH THROUGH COMPASSION, LET'S JUST:

"Remove freak Socialists physically from society, so MY society can continue to exist."

Tell me how that is any different than the very ones YOU condemn.

Who can tell the difference between these two?:
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimages6.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphoto s%2F32800000%2Fwolf-wolves-32863739-2560-1700.jpg&f=1
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogwallpapers.net%2Fwallpapers %2Fgerman-shepherd-dog-with-a-toy-photo.jpg&f=1

[Ender]

Not in a stadium funded by my tax dollars.

And that's the players fault- right.......

Well YOU don't get to say anything offensive to ME on public property because that's funded by MY tax dollars. ;)

[Ender]

I am actually a little surprised that these imbecile NFL fans are this butthurt. Guess I should not be surprised. I like watching, but the whole military worship-breast cancer fawning-blah blah blah was wearing thin. I watch on Sunday less and less. These NFL clown owners will learn the hard way that they're not the only game in town. The entertainment dollar is more competitive these days. Hell, you can make your own entertainment. Ride a horse. Grow a garden. Enjoy the sunshine. Play a game yourself.

Donald Trump is a cock sucker and that's all there is to it. He is a petty human being who wants to control everything around him. I can't imagine people working for that dumb prick. It seems he never got the punch in the face and the total ass beating that he so richly deserved. He got a couple of things right by sticking it to the media and calling out the statue people with the Jefferson-Washington examples, but any gain he made there was totally squandered with this debacle. He is petty and miserable fool who deserves little to no respect. $#@! him.

I'd rep you more, if I could.

[Ender]

Who can tell the difference between these two?:
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimages6.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphoto s%2F32800000%2Fwolf-wolves-32863739-2560-1700.jpg&f=1
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogwallpapers.net%2Fwallpapers %2Fgerman-shepherd-dog-with-a-toy-photo.jpg&f=1

One being challenged by something/someone that doesn't know what they are doing and how to handle a pup.

[Swordsmyth]

One being challenged by something/someone that doesn't know what they are doing and how to handle a pup.

One is a wolf the other is a sheepdog, the wolf wants to destroy the flock while the sheepdog wants to keep the wolves and the goats out.

You look at the sheepdog and call him a wolf.

[Ender]

One is a wolf the other is a sheepdog, the wolf wants to destroy the flock while the sheepdog wants to keep the wolves and the goats out.

You look at the sheepdog and call him a wolf.

Uh....maybe you should know what you're talking about.

That's a German Shepherd, not a Sheep Dog, AND wolves can be dealt with, when treated correctly, so you just strengthened what I originally said.

[Jamesiv1]

Donald Trump is a cock sucker and that's all there is to it. He is a petty human being who wants to control everything around him. I can't imagine people working for that dumb prick. It seems he never got the punch in the face and the total ass beating that he so richly deserved. He got a couple of things right by sticking it to the media and calling out the statue people with the Jefferson-Washington examples, but any gain he made there was totally squandered with this debacle. He is petty and miserable fool who deserves little to no respect. Fuck him.You sir, are no lover of liberty.

[Swordsmyth]

Uh....maybe you should know what you're talking about.

That's a German Shepherd, not a Sheep Dog, AND wolves can be dealt with, when treated correctly, so you just strengthened what I originally said.

A German Shepherd is a sheepdog dummy.

[Zippyjuan]

That's an opinion piece in which the author believes that the protests have nothing to do with it.

And that's ridiculous on the face of it.

Certainly the protests have had a negative effect.

That's not to say the speed and quality of the game play is not sub-par either or that tickets to live game are outrageously expensive.

But you and the NFL are out of your minds if you think these protests are not causing a great many people in the NFL's core customer demographic to walk away.

Just like NASCAR, NFL attendance was falling long before Trump got involved.

[Ender]

A German Shepherd is a sheepdog dummy.

German Shepherd Dog

The German Shepherd Dog is one of America’s most popular dog breeds — for good reason. He’s an intelligent and capable working dog. His devotion and courage are unmatched. And he’s amazingly versatile, excelling at most anything he’s trained to do: guide and assistance work for the handicapped, police and military service, herding, search and rescue, drug detection, competitive obedience and, last but not least, faithful companion.

Read more at http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/german-shepherd-dog#wdoRPLI8cC4yIRj7.99


History and Background


The German Shepherd breed over the years has served in many different capacities: police dog, guide dog, guard dog, war dog, explosives- and narcotics-detecting dog, search-and-rescue dog, show dog, and most notably as a shepherding dog. Developed primarily for the purpose of guarding and herding a shepherd's flocks, there have been few other breeds with such a versatile repertoire.

Max von Stephanitz, the first official breeder of German Shepherd Dogs, was attracted to the shepherding dogs used by Germans and, noting that there were many different types of shepherd dogs, concluded that a breed standard needed to be introduced. He was most fond of the shepherd dogs that had a wolfish appearance, with the strong upper body and prick ears, and that also had sharp minds and a willingness to work. In 1889 he bought a shepherd dog that met his ideal, changed the dog's name from Hektor Linkrshein to Horand von Grafrath (named for the nearby town of Grafrath), registered the dog under a new breed registry, and set about creating a standard, with Horand as the genetic basis for the breed. In that same year, the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (roughly translated into the Society for the German Shepherd Dog) was formed by Stephanitz and Artur Meyer to advance the German Shepherd Dog's breed standard.

There is some debate as to how much wolf is actually a part of the German Shepherd breed. It was said that Horan was part wolf, and that Stephanitz used wolves in the crossbreeding. In Stephanitz's stud book there are four entires for wolf crosses at different points in the breed's development. However, some point out that at the time, many breeders use the term "wolf" to generically describe a pattern that is currently referred to as "sable." Other accounts suggest that if Stephanitz did use pure wolf genes, he was able to acquire the genetic input from wolves that were housed in a zoo. In any case, in 1923 when Stephanitz wrote his book, The German Shepherd in Word and Picture, he strongly advised against using wolves for crossbreeding.

Stephanitz focused on strength, intelligence and an ability to work well with people throughout, and succeeded so well that the German Shepherd Dog grew steadily in popularity. During World War I, the breed was selected as a war sentry by various countries. At the same time, the American Kennel Club (AKC) chose to alter the name of the breed from German Sheepdog to Shepherd Dog, while Britain renamed it the Alsatian Wolfdog -- both in an attempt to separate the breed from its German roots.

In 1931, the AKC reverted the dog back to its original name: the German Shepherd Dog. Since then, popular German Shepherds have been on the silver screen, including movie stars Rin Tin Tin and Strongheart. The Shepherd has become a mainstay in the American home -- maintaining a position as one of the ten most popular dogs in the U.S., and even ranking at number one in many American cities.

[enhanced_deficit]

The discussion on politicization of empty seats, declining NFL ads revenue, national anthem and kneelers has gone to dogs :)

[Swordsmyth]

German Shepherd Dog

The German Shepherd Dog is one of America’s most popular dog breeds — for good reason. He’s an intelligent and capable working dog. His devotion and courage are unmatched. And he’s amazingly versatile, excelling at most anything he’s trained to do: guide and assistance work for the handicapped, police and military service, herding, search and rescue, drug detection, competitive obedience and, last but not least, faithful companion.

Read more at http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/german-shepherd-dog#wdoRPLI8cC4yIRj7.99

From your own source:


Max von Stephanitz, the first official breeder of German Shepherd Dogs, was attracted to the shepherding dogs used by Germans and, noting that there were many different types of shepherd dogs, concluded that a breed standard needed to be introduced. He was most fond of the shepherd dogs that had a wolfish appearance, with the strong upper body and prick ears, and that also had sharp minds and a willingness to work. In 1889 he bought a shepherd dog that met his ideal, changed the dog's name from Hektor Linkrshein to Horand von Grafrath (named for the nearby town of Grafrath), registered the dog under a new breed registry, and set about creating a standard, with Horand as the genetic basis for the breed. In that same year, the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (roughly translated into the Society for the German Shepherd Dog) was formed by Stephanitz and Artur Meyer to advance the German Shepherd Dog's breed standard.

German Shepherds are sheepdogs.

And I'm not sure why you brought wolf ancestry into this, unless it is because you can't tell a sheepdog from a wolf, nobody said anything about whether wolves and sheepdogs are closer related than other dogs.

[Ender]

From your own source:



German Shepherds are sheepdogs.

And I'm not sure why you brought wolf ancestry into this, unless it is because you can't tell a sheepdog from a wolf, nobody said anything about whether wolves and sheepdogs are closer related than other dogs.

LOL- YOU are the one that brought both the German Shepherd and the Wolf into the conversation. The GS was originally a shepherd for Germans but then the dog was mixed with the Wolf and became what we now know as a German Shepherd- which is a highly advanced breed and is pretty much my whole point in the first place.

[Swordsmyth]

LOL- YOU are the one that brought both the German Shepherd and the Wolf into the conversation. The GS was originally a shepherd for Germans but then the dog was mixed with the Wolf and became what we now know as a German Shepherd- which is a highly advanced breed and is pretty much my whole point in the first place.

Your point is nonsense as usual, Socialists are wolves intent on destroying the flock of sheeple, you want the sheepdogs to stand down and let as many into the pasture as want to come and when we don't you start to scream we are wolves.

[Pauls' Revere]

This is what happens when a leftist revolution sweeps over a nation.

Everything becomes political and everything you do is viewed and judged and reported on through a lens of state approved political filters.

+ rep.

I feel more and more that I speak "in disclaimer speak" and that psychological safety is rapidly diminishing.

[Anti Federalist]

Just like NASCAR, NFL attendance was falling long before Trump got involved.

Yeah?

I'm not denying that.

Are you seriously saying the player's actions are not having a negative effect on ticket sales and TV ratings?

[Anti Federalist]

+ rep.

I feel more and more that I speak "in disclaimer speak" and that psychological safety is rapidly diminishing.

You start to self censor and talk in bland tones and banalities, knowing that you are under total surveillance and that any word you say, if not deemed "politically proper", could destroy you.

[euphemia]

And that's the players fault- right.......

Well YOU don't get to say anything offensive to ME on public property because that's funded by MY tax dollars. ;)

I don't much care what you do. Players using a stadium I pay for should remember where they are. I'm in the camp that says you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[Origanalist]

You start to self censor and talk in bland tones and banalities, knowing that you are under total surveillance and that any word you say, if not deemed "politically proper", could destroy you.

Ya, fuck that.

[bunklocoempire]

I am actually a little surprised that these imbecile NFL fans are this butthurt. Guess I should not be surprised. I like watching, but the whole military worship-breast cancer fawning-blah blah blah was wearing thin. I watch on Sunday less and less. These NFL clown owners will learn the hard way that they're not the only game in town. The entertainment dollar is more competitive these days. Hell, you can make your own entertainment. Ride a horse. Grow a garden. Enjoy the sunshine. Play a game yourself.

Donald Trump is a cock sucker and that's all there is to it. He is a petty human being who wants to control everything around him. I can't imagine people working for that dumb prick. It seems he never got the punch in the face and the total ass beating that he so richly deserved. He got a couple of things right by sticking it to the media and calling out the statue people with the Jefferson-Washington examples, but any gain he made there was totally squandered with this debacle. He is petty and miserable fool who deserves little to no respect. Fuck him.

Trump and company are all about getting folks to worship the American VAGUE. I can't stand that ignorant flinching coward worship crap.

A stadium full of people reciting the Declaration of Independence? Sure, now THAT I wouldn't mind.

Wave that vague!:rolleyes:

[anaconda]

Maybe everyone is just tired and bored with the NFL and it has nothing to do with kneeling, etc.

[anaconda]

Who needs to go to an NFL game when they can watch the youtube of the full Super Bowl III? Original NBC broadcast with call by Curt Gowdy. Excellent game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW5GnZCxqIw

[Ender]

Your point is nonsense as usual, Socialists are wolves intent on destroying the flock of sheeple, you want the sheepdogs to stand down and let as many into the pasture as want to come and when we don't you start to scream we are wolves.

Never said anything close to that-

[Zippyjuan]

Yeah?

I'm not denying that.

Are you seriously saying the player's actions are not having a negative effect on ticket sales and TV ratings?

It was "old news" before Trump brought it to the front again. People were not tuning in or not tuning in because a couple guys knelt during the Anthem. They care more about the game (or don't care about the game).

[dannno]

Yeah?

I'm not denying that.

Are you seriously saying the player's actions are not having a negative effect on ticket sales and TV ratings?

Zippy is an NFL attendance drop denier.

[Gumba of Liberty]

Maybe everyone is just tired and bored with the NFL and it has nothing to do with kneeling, etc.

This. The NFL might as well be called the No Football League. The quarterbacks can’t be touched. The receivers can’t be touched. Defensive back are penalized for playing defense. Kickoffs now routinely sail though the back of the end zone. Flags everywhere. Replays take half the game. Players aren’t allowed to practice.

And what is the NFL worried about? Player Celebrations. Cam Newton’s opinion of women & route running. Super Bowl (Lady Gaga) Halftime Shows. Kneeling.

What a joke.

In the end the jokes on them. This is coming from a former High School Footbal Coach.

[euphemia]

Maybe everyone is just tired and bored with the NFL and it has nothing to do with kneeling, etc.

This may well be true, and the protests by underperforming players is the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Zippyjuan]

Zippy is an NFL attendance drop denier.

I don't deny that attendance has dropped. I do disagree that the credit for that goes to Donald Trump. He is using it as a distraction from his failure to get Congress to pass his legislation.

http://nypost.com/2017/10/10/nfl-ratings-are-starting-to-improve-despite-distractions/


NFL ratings are starting to improve despite distractions

NFL ratings won’t necessarily spend the whole season on their knees.

This year’s football season got off to a disastrous start by any measure, but a close look at the numbers shows that viewership has improved with each successive week — to where it is down 7.2 percent through Week 5, a crunching of Nielsen numbers by The Post reveals.

That’s an improvement after weeks 1 and 2, when cumulative viewership was down 12.3 and 11.5 percent, respective, from last year, as games faced disruptions from hurricanes as well as mounting distractions from the spectacle of players kneeling in protest during the National Anthem.

“The sky definitely isn’t falling,” a TV sports executive told The Post. “The narrative for this season is by no means written.”
For the season’s first 31 national NFL telecasts — excluding just this week’s “Monday Night Football” game — viewership has averaged 15.4 million.

The Nielsen numbers from the latest MNF were not released at press time.

Viewership numbers relative to last season improved each week this season, according to Nielsen.

[Jamesiv1]

This. The NFL might as well be called the No Football League. The quarterbacks can’t be touched. The receivers can’t be touched. Defensive back are penalized for playing defense. Kickoffs now routinely sail though the back of the end zone. Flags everywhere. Replays take half the game. Players aren’t allowed to practice.

And what is the NFL worried about? Player Celebrations. Cam Newton’s opinion of women & route running. Super Bowl (Lady Gaga) Halftime Shows. Kneeling.

What a joke.

In the end the jokes on them. This is coming from a former High School Footbal Coach.
That is some good points.

I have always thought of pro football as being like the Roman gladiator/circus deal.

So yeah.... there is way less violence in today's NFL, yet today's players get paid millions. And I agree with others that along with all the other silliness, maybe this take-a-knee business is simply the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Zippyjuan]

https://today.yougov.com/news/2017/10/09/americans-disagree-trump-kneeling-football-players/

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2017-10-06/10-9%20Chart%201.png

[austin870]

This. The NFL might as well be called the No Football League. The quarterbacks can’t be touched. The receivers can’t be touched. Defensive back are penalized for playing defense. Kickoffs now routinely sail though the back of the end zone. Flags everywhere. Replays take half the game. Players aren’t allowed to practice.

And what is the NFL worried about? Player Celebrations. Cam Newton’s opinion of women & route running. Super Bowl (Lady Gaga) Halftime Shows. Kneeling.

What a joke.

In the end the jokes on them. This is coming from a former High School Footbal Coach.

The league has also evolved from about 10% women watchers to over 45% and climbing. It is the fastest growing segment. While at the same time male viewers have declined. We saw cheerleaders disappear from TV and played way down at live games. We now have to endure these 50 something year old hags reading scripts on the sidelines just to appease the feminist regime. Asking questions like "how is that concussion?" or "how do you plan on over coming a 21 point deficit at halftime?".

We have commercials for makeup and women pharmaceuticals during the games. Half time shows are geared for women. It is the fastest growing segment of the sales business and women buy WAY more lame crap off TV commercials than men do. The NFL has massively toned down the violence and are evolving the rules to attract more women viewers thus selling more sponsor advertised crap.

Now we have the feminist pushing agendas like violence against women, breast cancer etc crap with players wearing pink shoes, ribbons and other garbage to highlight feminist causes. The feminist are also now pushing these minority causes with the poor pitiful me being abused by the police and middle class white males.

This isn't about any one of these things. It is the decade after decade progression in the wrong direction from the original male viewing audience. They are making the NFL a women run and women viewer dominated sport. OH don't forget they are doing this with the entire country too!

[RJB]

These polls remind me of peer pressure, when someone says "everybody is doing it." The polls were so wrong in predicting that Hillary would win. It seems they are used more to corral and herd us rather than inform us. Here they tell us to take a side. Screw them. I could care less.

Why should I care that grandstanding millionaires who play a kids game are derided by a grandstanding politician reality show star when the millionaires claim to be oppressed and somewhere in there I should feel white guilt? I bet in reality 80 ℅ of Americans could care less about this silly show.

[Gumba of Liberty]

The league has also evolved from about 10% women watchers to over 45% and climbing. It is the fastest growing segment. While at the same time male viewers have declined. We saw cheerleaders disappear from TV and played way down at live games. We now have to endure these 50 something year old hags reading scripts on the sidelines just to appease the feminist regime. Asking questions like "how is that concussion?" or "how do you plan on over coming a 21 point deficit at halftime?".

We have commercials for makeup and women pharmaceuticals during the games. Half time shows are geared for women. It is the fastest growing segment of the sales business and women buy WAY more lame crap off TV commercials than men do. The NFL has massively toned down the violence and are evolving the rules to attract more women viewers thus selling more sponsor advertised crap.

Now we have the feminist pushing agendas like violence against women, breast cancer etc crap with players wearing pink shoes, ribbons and other garbage to highlight feminist causes. The feminist are also now pushing these minority causes with the poor pitiful me being abused by the police and middle class white males.

This isn't about any one of these things. It is the decade after decade progression in the wrong direction from the original male viewing audience. They are making the NFL a women run and women viewer dominated sport. OH don't forget they are doing this with the entire country too!

Can’t have Alpha Males walking around out there when you’re trying to build a Global Government for your own benefit. For some reason they fight back.

While the feminization of pop culture is one major aspect of NFL rule changes and the decline of the league in general, there is more to this story.

The State destroys everything it touches. Healthcare is an absolute disaster. It’s been a disaster ever since the Great Society and LBJ (Sorry Obama ruined everything crowd).

The fruits of this Healthcare debacle can be seen in the NFL. Players, who destroyed their bodies in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s are laying in hospital beds and they want the NFL to pay for their (criminally expensive) healthcare. The NFL has paid out millions if not billions in healthcare lawsuits. Therefore, the owners look to the State (which they control as much as the players on the field) to push these costs on to the taxpayers.

The NFL (and all leagues owned by the same international clique of swamp creatures) supports and has supported National Healthcare (and anything that will get us to National Healthcare I.e Obamacare) whenever and wherever possible. Including when they had “elite stars” like Ray Rice hawking “Health Exchanges” in Maryland before he proceeded to knock out his (future) wife and then proceed to cover it up to protect the face of their campaign.

In addition, the NFL has decided, as all companies run my Wall Street attorneys do, to limit future lawsuits by changing the rules of the industry (game), removing the violent (football) aspects for the betterment of their bottom line.

The targeting of a new female market is a way to make up for a product (real football) which these assholes believe is no longer “sustainable” for their profits long-term.

The Football Gods would call it treason. Lombardy is rolling in his grave.

[anaconda]

The NFL (and all leagues owned by the same international clique of swamp creatures) supports and has supported National Healthcare (and anything that will get us to National Healthcare I.e Obamacare) whenever and wherever possible.

Are the NFL teams going to rely on single payer to perform knee surgeries on their star players?

[anaconda]

Can’t have Alpha Males walking around out there when you’re trying to build a Global Government for your own benefit. For some reason they fight back.


But NFL players don't fight back. They obediently and happily accept the globalist script for bread and circuses. The NFL is exactly the type of thing the globalists utilize to build their cabal. The NFL distracts the masses from political engagement.

[anaconda]

This. The NFL might as well be called the No Football League. The quarterbacks can’t be touched. The receivers can’t be touched. Defensive back are penalized for playing defense. Kickoffs now routinely sail though the back of the end zone. Flags everywhere. Replays take half the game. Players aren’t allowed to practice.

And what is the NFL worried about? Player Celebrations. Cam Newton’s opinion of women & route running. Super Bowl (Lady Gaga) Halftime Shows. Kneeling.

What a joke.

In the end the jokes on them. This is coming from a former High School Footbal Coach.

It's not too late to scroll up to post #91 in this thread and enjoy the Jets & Colts in Super Bowl III.

[anaconda]

This. The NFL might as well be called the No Football League. The quarterbacks can’t be touched. The receivers can’t be touched. Defensive back are penalized for playing defense. Kickoffs now routinely sail though the back of the end zone. Flags everywhere. Replays take half the game. Players aren’t allowed to practice.

And what is the NFL worried about? Player Celebrations. Cam Newton’s opinion of women & route running. Super Bowl (Lady Gaga) Halftime Shows. Kneeling.

What a joke.

In the end the jokes on them. This is coming from a former High School Footbal Coach.

Great analysis. I gave up on the NFL a long time ago. This season I have also finally given up on the NBA since they don't call traveling or carrying. It's not real basketball. And the Warriors are the local team, so that's pretty good evidence of how uninterested I have become.

[austin870]

Great analysis. I gave up on the NFL a long time ago. This season I have also finally given up on the NBA since they don't call traveling or carrying. It's not real basketball. And the Warriors are the local team, so that's pretty good evidence of how uninterested I have become.

Baseball is not far behind. All the socialist feminist run cities like Chicago, New York etc are now moving their totally useless and unwanted 50+ year old women into the announcer booths. They have no announcer voices and know little if anything about baseball. Asking completely lame questions down on the field was not enough. They need to have them sitting in the booth reading scripts without a clue and chiming in lame crap some editor shoves in front of them. They don't have decades of playing baseball up through college ball and announcing AAA ballgames to get there.

The networks won't pole their audience to find out if they want these women in the announcer booths in baseball or any sports because they know the answer in advance. You will get the quality of your broadcasts lowered to accommodate a feminist regime. Then follows all the rule, marketing etc changes to accommodate the women. The sports are eventually morphed into some bogus different sport.

We now have to let girls in the frigging Cub and Boy Scouts up through Eagle Scout programs! There are things boys like to do without girls and men like to do without women. Why are these totally benign privacies being invaded?

[Gumba of Liberty]

But NFL players don't fight back. They obediently and happily accept the globalist script for bread and circuses. The NFL is exactly the type of thing the globalists utilize to build their cabal. The NFL distracts the masses from political engagement.

I wasn’t referring to the players. Just because you’re physically large and muscular doesn’t mean your an Alpha Male. I was referring to the rest of us. The armed, critically thinking American Patriarchs who protect their families and their communities at all costs. We are the targets of the mass feminization movement. The NFL and the rest of pop culture is being used as a weapon to soften American Male resolve, destroy the family and atomize individuals for control by the State. Look at Europe for how this plays out.

This is why they are scared shitless about Concealed Carry Reciprocity. The Globalist (New York, LA, Washington) Elite (Thieves) are worried about the Good Ole Boys regaining conscienceness and showing up on their front doorstep when SHTF.

Which brings me to Las Vegas...

[Gumba of Liberty]

Are the NFL teams going to rely on single payer to perform knee surgeries on their star players?

Not for productive cattle (current players). For the washer up retired former talent. I’m sure they would send them to the VA if they could.

[Gumba of Liberty]

Great analysis. I gave up on the NFL a long time ago. This season I have also finally given up on the NBA since they don't call traveling or carrying. It's not real basketball. And the Warriors are the local team, so that's pretty good evidence of how uninterested I have become.

The only thing I watch is playoff Hockey. I gave up on the NBA before the NFL.

[anaconda]

I wasn’t referring to the players. Just because you’re physically large and muscular doesn’t mean your an Alpha Male. I was referring to the rest of us. The armed, critically thinking American Patriarchs who protect their families and their communities at all costs. We are the targets of the mass feminization movement. The NFL and the rest of pop culture is being used as a weapon to soften American Male resolve, destroy the family and atomize individuals for control by the State. Look at Europe for how this plays out.

This is why they are scared $#@!less about Concealed Carry Reciprocity. The Globalist (New York, LA, Washington) Elite (Thieves) are worried about the Good Ole Boys regaining conscienceness and showing up on their front doorstep when SHTF.

Which brings me to Las Vegas...

Ah! Thanks. I totally misunderstood you previously.

[anaconda]

The only thing I watch is playoff Hockey. I gave up on the NBA before the NFL.

At least the NFL (which I no longer watch) appears to rigorously enforce its rule book. Unlike FAKE possessions NBA.

[anaconda]

Baseball is not far behind. All the socialist feminist run cities like Chicago, New York etc are now moving their totally useless and unwanted 50+ year old women into the announcer booths. They have no announcer voices and know little if anything about baseball.

How does this affect listener ratings? Advertising revenues? Here in the Bay Area the Warriors have a pretty decent radio announcer calling the game. It's a male. I wouldn't mind a woman doing play by play as long as they were talented and totally into it like a geek.

P.S. The Bay Area was spoiled by having one of the greatest local announcers in sports history, Bill King (did both Raiders and Warriors in their hey days of the 60's & 70's.):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y1SeAjv5ao

[euphemia]

Viewership decline has nothing to do with Trump. It has a lot to do with Kaepernick and the trend he started, BLM, and their campaign of misinformation. Viewership was already declining. Now it shows a more dramatic decline after Trump interjected. People who were already perturbed got angry and decided to do something.

This is something to watch out for. Trump's unfiltered mouth and Twitter thumb tends to embolden and empower people to take action they wouldn't ordinarily do. You could see this happening during the Republican debates. After the first one, everyone stepped up their games.

I think it is a good idea to step back and ask what is really going on here. Granted, Trump is a lightning rod for abuse, but this is how he plays the game.

The next question is: Is there a way Liberty people can use Trump's style to empower more people to embrace a liberty life here in the US?

[Origanalist]

These polls remind me of peer pressure, when someone says "everybody is doing it." The polls were so wrong in predicting that Hillary would win. It seems they are used more to corral and herd us rather than inform us. Here they tell us to take a side. Screw them. I could care less.

Why should I care that grandstanding millionaires who play a kids game are derided by a grandstanding politician reality show star when the millionaires claim to be oppressed and somewhere in there I should feel white guilt? I bet in reality 80 ℅ of Americans could care less about this silly show.

Count me in that 80%.

[Jamesiv1]

The NFL is learning the hard way what happens when one tries to challenge the majestic and awesome powers of the DJ Donald Trumpmaster D.

[euphemia]

The NFL is learning the hard way what happens when one tries to challenge the majestic and awesome powers of the DJ Donald Trumpmaster D.

Except it's not Trump. The fans are fed up. The NFL sucks up a lot of local resources and doesn't contribute much to the communities they plunder. They have a track record of criminal behavior. We practically needed a whole precinct to babysit PacMan Jones when he was with the Titans.

The only injustice in the NFL is that these people were not made to earn their way to college and learn how to be men. They got preferred placement, grade inflation, and the whole bit.

For these people to carry out protests in front of the people who defend their liberty and safety every day is a joke.

[euphemia]

Sorry, my new Dodgers shirt just came and I had to get ready for work.

What I'm saying to you all is that you are being used by the MSM to shape the narrative any way they want. It's clear they have an agenda. They keep telling you straight out. You all can either learn to filter through liberty logic or let hatred for Trump allow you to become a tool of the MSM.

[Jamesiv1]

Except it's not Trump. The fans are fed up. The NFL sucks up a lot of local resources and doesn't contribute much to the communities they plunder. They have a track record of criminal behavior. We practically needed a whole precinct to babysit PacMan Jones when he was with the Titans.

The only injustice in the NFL is that these people were not made to earn their way to college and learn how to be men. They got preferred placement, grade inflation, and the whole bit.

For these people to carry out protests in front of the people who defend their liberty and safety every day is a joke.Everything that is good and righteous is because of Trump.

[austin870]

How does this affect listener ratings? Advertising revenues? Here in the Bay Area the Warriors have a pretty decent radio announcer calling the game. It's a male. I wouldn't mind a woman doing play by play as long as they were talented and totally into it like a geek.

P.S. The Bay Area was spoiled by having one of the greatest local announcers in sports history, Bill King (did both Raiders and Warriors in their hey days of the 60's & 70's.):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y1SeAjv5ao

Totally agree about Bill King. I also remember the old AFL which was incredible to watch. Having two competing professional football teams was a great idea and you always loose quality with a monopoly. Loved the Madden years and the guy was one of the best announcers ever.

Some guys might not mind a woman baseball announcer and I suppose some Cub Scouts like girls in their dens and Boy Scouts who want girls but not the overwhelming majority. Same with guys doing Tupperware or lingerie parties for the women. Could guys be really into it? Yes, but it just is not going to fly.

[enhanced_deficit]

This is getting serious.

ESPN set for another round of massive layoffs before year's end (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/espn-set-massive-layoffs-year-article-1.3592295)
Highly Cited New York Daily News 18h ago





https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdaAFoBr9AT-xn0hkJTHtrCkex3J14fLWhfAVE5pb6srBpc5gYEeKn2bS1c2pU 5_w1oWqQHIwnCw (http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/21170410/gaffes-tv-ratings-concerns-dominated-nfl-players-forged-anthem-peace-league-meetings)
Gaffes, TV ratings concerns dominated as NFL, players forged anthem peace
ESPN 10h ago

[anaconda]

I gave up on the NBA before the NFL.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJvEwWZhZTk

[FunkBuddha]

Some of us just like to watch the world burn.

[anaconda]

Some of us just like to watch the world burn.

Just Caesar's Temples.

[anaconda]

Totally agree about Bill King. Loved the Madden years and the guy was one of the best announcers ever.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiAz4n0DVy8&t=412s

[timosman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJvEwWZhZTk

Holy crap! WTF is this?:confused:

[anaconda]

Holy crap! WTF is this?:confused:

Just more daily affirmations of how utterly stupid and dumbed down the bread and circuses of professional sports has become. And tangentially supportive of some of the theories presented in this thread that the NFL has become just plain boring and frivolous. And that this may help explain the empty stadiums. The traveling video above underscores my utter disinterest in the NBA. As an example.

I believe there is a parallel between sports fans accepting NBA rule bending and accepting U.S. administration rule bending.

[timosman]

I believe there is a parallel between sports fans accepting NBA rule bending and accepting U.S. administration rule bending.

Definitely. The players are too stupid to even play the game they claim they play, the referees are useless/corrupt and the owners of the league/teams are making tons of money because the public is convinced they couldn't be fucked with as much as they are. Kabuki theater.

[enhanced_deficit]

Apparently anthem kneeling protests are spreading to cheerleaders too:


https://dailygazette.com/sites/default/files/kneel1prb.jpg



http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/WireAP_7046e513b17f4ac8bde7760f4d6c181f_12x5_992.j pg



Cheerleaders' protests reportedly shut down by Georgia sheriff, lawmaker

Rep. Earl Ehrhart and sheriff Neil Warren were reportedly 'furious' about kneeling at Kennesaw State




Cody Benjamin
Oct 26, 2017

On football's biggest stage, meetings between the NFL and its players have much of the league talking up cooperative social activism (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-players-owners-marveling-about-cooperation-and-commitment-to-social-causes/) in the wake of pregame protests across professional sports.This is a contrast to the dozens of public statements by President Donald Trump (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/look-president-trump-tweets-about-the-nfl-more-than-all-but-one-other-topic/), who has publicly ignored the NFL (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl)'s stance on protesting players' pursuit of discussion on social equality and criminal justice reform, instead alleging that those who kneel during the national anthem are doing it to "disrespect" America (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/trump-on-twitter-no-leadership-in-nfl-after-another-sunday-of-anthem-protests/).
But Trump isn't necessarily alone in applauding the "great anger" (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/donald-trump-applauds-great-anger-from-booing-fans-at-cowboys-cardinals-game/) that he says stems from those peacefully protesting on the field.
Investigations by NBC's WXIA-TV (11Alive) (http://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/investigation-launched-into-ksu-cheerleader-controversy-olens-apologizes/85-484320217?scroll=1616), which were relayed with additional reporting by Yahoo Sports (https://sports.yahoo.com/campus-anthem-battle-cheerleaders-vs-sheriff-powerful-lawmaker-232611605.html), suggest that a "furious" state representative and local sheriff attempted -- and essentially succeeded -- in thwarting protests at the collegiate level.


When the Kennesaw State University administration started keeping its football team's cheerleaders off the field for the anthem, the reports indicate, it wasn't just a response to five of those cheerleaders kneeling during a Sept. 30 playing of the national anthem. It was also, as implied through text messages obtained by 11Alive, the result of pressure from Rep. Earl Ehrhart and sheriff Neil Warren.
The messages, accessed thanks to Georgia's Open Records Act, revealed that Ehrhart and Warren told each other how "furious" they were upon seeing the cheerleaders kneel in protest of police misconduct and racial inequality. They also showed Ehrhart accusing school president Sam Olens of "coddling" the cheerleaders, to which Warren was revealed to have said the following: "Let me know what I can do to help you stop this BS on taxpayer-funded college campuses."
Further text messages, as reported by 11Alive, showed Warren eventually assuring Ehrhart that he had spoken with Olens and stood up to "the unpatriotic cheerleaders" and "these liberal[s] that hate the USA."

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/cheerleaders-protests-reportedly-shut-down-by-georgia-sheriff-lawmaker/








Related

Houston Texans owner on national anthem protests: 'We can't have the inmates running the prison' (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/houston-texans-owner-on-national-anthem-protests-we-cant-have-the-inmates-running-the-prison/article/2638771)

Melissa Quinn | Oct 27, 2017

https://content.newsinc.com/jpg/1602/33109236/65144378.jpg

Houston Texans owner Bob McNair "stunned" other NFL franchise owners last week by saying they need to oppose players' efforts to kneel during the national anthem, and saying that owners can't have "inmates running the prison."

McNair’s remark, reported by ESPN (http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/21170410/gaffes-tv-ratings-concerns-dominated-nfl-players-forged-anthem-peace-league-meetings), came after Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones discussed the business issues facing the league, as well as his call for a mandate requiring players to stand during the national anthem.

[Anti Federalist]

It was "old news" before Trump brought it to the front again. People were not tuning in or not tuning in because a couple guys knelt during the Anthem. They care more about the game (or don't care about the game).

Seriously?

Now you're just being ridiculous.

[Anti Federalist]

You know what was so idiotic about this?

I had to read five stories before I found out what the "racist gesture" was.

This whole country has turned into a bunch of fucking pansies.


Astros’ Yuli Gurriel Escapes World Series Ban, but Will Miss 5 Games in 2018

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/28/sports/baseball/yuli-gurriel-apologizes-racist-yu-darvish.html

During Game 3 of the Series on Friday, Gurriel, who defected from Cuba in 2016, hit a home run off Dodgers pitcher Yu Darvish in the bottom of the second inning. After Gurriel returned to the dugout, he was captured on camera smiling and then raising his hands as if to stretch the sides of his eyes. It seemed to be a clear, and pointedly insensitive, reference to Darvish, who is from Japan.

[Anti Federalist]

http://cdn8.openculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/waiting-for-signals.png

[RJB]

You know what was so idiotic about this?

I had to read five stories before I found out what the "racist gesture" was.

This whole country has turned into a bunch of fucking pansies.


Astros’ Yuli Gurriel Escapes World Series Ban, but Will Miss 5 Games in 2018

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/28/sports/baseball/yuli-gurriel-apologizes-racist-yu-darvish.html

During Game 3 of the Series on Friday, Gurriel, who defected from Cuba in 2016, hit a home run off Dodgers pitcher Yu Darvish in the bottom of the second inning. After Gurriel returned to the dugout, he was captured on camera smiling and then raising his hands as if to stretch the sides of his eyes. It seemed to be a clear, and pointedly insensitive, reference to Darvish, who is from Japan.
It seems progressives have psychic abilities to know the thoughts and motivations of others.

[Anti Federalist]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/WWIHunNatlArchives.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

https://i.imgflip.com/1yfh6f.jpg

[Wooden Indian]

https://i.imgflip.com/1yfh6f.jpg

That there dirty Mexican feller sho does have a nice blower.

Does my homosexual overtone cancel my racist overtone and create an acceptable balance? I'm asking for a friend.

[timosman]

That there dirty Mexican feller sho does have a nice blower.

Does my homosexual overtone cancel my racist overtone and create an acceptable balance? I'm asking for a friend.

No, it doesn't. You show no empathy for the feller.:cool:

[otherone]

That there dirty Mexican feller sho does have a nice blower.

Does my homosexual overtone cancel my racist overtone and create an acceptable balance? I'm asking for a friend.

Doods working for a living.

[enhanced_deficit]

http://cdn8.openculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/waiting-for-signals.png

Time to ban Dr. Seuss books?

If you were trying to make argument that political correctness regarding symbolisms of racial stereotypes has made exponential progress in recent decades, then it seems to be supported by current facts on the surface.
But in various state-sponsored policies and deep stage operations, racial supremacist dogmas continue to be worshiped, injustices continue to be delivered when the price is just right.
All got to see a tiny glimpse of massive media sponsored ironies prevalent in our pop political culture when recently DGP bundler Harvey Weinstein was also exposed as "women rights" champion.


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0EZo-I00dZI/maxresdefault.jpg



Texas city drops Israel boycott ban for individuals but says businesses must still reject BDS to get hurricane aid (http://mondoweiss.net/2017/10/businesses-hurricane-boycott/)

US Politics (http://mondoweiss.net/us-politics/) Jesse Rubin on October 26, 2017
http://19453-presscdn.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/hurricane-harvey_RTX3DL6U-1024x642-300x188.jpg (http://mondoweiss.net/2017/10/businesses-hurricane-boycott/) Following media uproar, Dickinson, Texas, decided today it will no longer require private citizens affected by Hurricane Harvey to sign a pledge guaranteeing they will not boycott Israel as a condition to receiving help. But businesses seeking aid must reject Israel boycott.







But this is digression. Getting back to standing up for human rights while kneeling down for media neocons cherished stunts, another eventful Sunday is unfolding:



Houston Texans owner on national anthem protests: 'We can't have the inmates running the prison' (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/houston-texans-owner-on-national-anthem-protests-we-cant-have-the-inmates-running-the-prison/article/2638771)

Melissa Quinn | Oct 27, 2017
Houston Texans owner Bob McNair "stunned" other NFL franchise owners last week by saying they need to oppose players' efforts to kneel during the national anthem, and saying that owners can't have "inmates running the prison."

McNair’s remark, reported by ESPN (http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/21170410/gaffes-tv-ratings-concerns-dominated-nfl-players-forged-anthem-peace-league-meetings), came after Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones discussed the business issues facing the league, as well as his call for a mandate requiring players to stand during the national anthem.


Texans plan pregame protest of Bob McNair's comments

9:59 AM ET
ESPN.com



players are planning to protest as a unit before Sunday's game against the Seattle Seahawks in the wake of team owner Bob McNair's controversial "inmates running the prison" comment, a league source told ESPN's Adam Schefter.
The Texans held a players meeting Saturday in Seattle to decide how to handle Sunday after McNair's comments surfaced, the source said.
Texans left tackle Duane Brown told ESPN's Josina Anderson on Sunday morning that he anticipates "up to 65 to 70 percent" of the team's players could kneel. He said the players would not remove the team's decals from their helmets as had been discussed.
McNair's comment was made during the owners meetings in New York earlier this month. Referring to ongoing player demonstrations during the anthem, he said, "We can't have the inmates running the prison."





Related

https://us-east-1.tchyn.io/snopes-production/uploads/2016/10/nflmeme.jpg

[euphemia]

We chose not to watch the protestors.

[Swordsmyth]

Papa John's Pulls NFL Ads Due To "Negative Consumer Sentiment"http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-01/papa-johns-pulls-nfl-ads-due-negative-consumer-sentiment

[Madison320]

Interesting.

I believe they said the same thing about the Jews in that day.

Freedom is only for the pure, amirite? INSTEAD OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AND CONVERTING THEM TO TRUTH THROUGH COMPASSION, LET'S JUST:

"Remove freak Socialists physically from society, so MY society can continue to exist."

Tell me how that is any different than the very ones YOU condemn.


The problem is you're not consistent. You want us to forgive protestors who protest "black injustice" but not protestors who protest "white injustice".

As I've said before. I'm an equal opportunity hater. I hate black racist groups and white racist groups and I'm not going to support either.

[Madison320]

I am actually a little surprised that these imbecile NFL fans are this butthurt. Guess I should not be surprised. I like watching, but the whole military worship-breast cancer fawning-blah blah blah was wearing thin. I watch on Sunday less and less. These NFL clown owners will learn the hard way that they're not the only game in town. The entertainment dollar is more competitive these days. Hell, you can make your own entertainment. Ride a horse. Grow a garden. Enjoy the sunshine. Play a game yourself.


I agree. The NFL keeps getting harder to watch. The protesting is just one more irritation. Like you said the "military worship" and "awareness crap" is annoying. As a hypochondriac I pretty much have to wait until October is over until I watch a game. And the game itself sucks. The penalties are so severe and so subjective, that I'd say at least 30% of the games are decided by bad calls. The college game handles penalties a lot better. More objectivity (for example if your knee hits the ground, you're down - in the NFL it depends on whether you got touched) and less severity (pass interference is 15 yards not the spot of the foul, you don't get an automatic first down on defensive penalties). And the targeting type penalties are out of control, inconsistent.

[ChristianAnarchist]

When I'm at a game I stand and remove my hat so as not to offend the religious (idolatrous) believers. I do not place my hand over my heart though and I do not sing along. I wonder how many others there do the same. I really don't like to offend people but if you think about how stupid it is to worship those who oppress you it really boggles the mind.

I only worship God...

[Ender]

The problem is you're not consistent. You want us to forgive protestors who protest "black injustice" but not protestors who protest "white injustice".

As I've said before. I'm an equal opportunity hater. I hate black racist groups and white racist groups and I'm not going to support either.

That's not true- I have never said THAT. I think we should all be protesting INJUSTICE.

[Jamesiv1]

I agree. The NFL keeps getting harder to watch. The protesting is just one more irritation. Like you said the "military worship" and "awareness crap" is annoying. As a hypochondriac I pretty much have to wait until October is over until I watch a game. And the game itself sucks. The penalties are so severe and so subjective, that I'd say at least 30% of the games are decided by bad calls. The college game handles penalties a lot better. More objectivity (for example if your knee hits the ground, you're down - in the NFL it depends on whether you got touched) and less severity (pass interference is 15 yards not the spot of the foul, you don't get an automatic first down on defensive penalties). And the targeting type penalties are out of control, inconsistent.
I don't watch much football, but I like to listen to a local sports radio station.

This morning they were saying that instant reply is having a bad effect. The officials have gotten lazy, and there is a flag after almost every play.

I really hope the NFL takes it in the shorts and loses quite a lot of money. It might make them go back to playing football again.

[Madison320]

I don't watch much football, but I like to listen to a local sports radio station.

This morning they were saying that instant reply is having a bad effect. The officials have gotten lazy, and there is a flag after almost every play.

I really hope the NFL takes it in the shorts and loses quite a lot of money. It might make them go back to playing football again.

I watched a high school game on tv awhile ago and it was amazing how the quickly the game went and how well it flowed.

[Madison320]

That's not true- I have never said THAT. I think we should all be protesting INJUSTICE.

Obviously you're not going to come out and say it. But we can infer it from your posts. Like putting all the blame on white people for the current problems in South Africa.

Can you show me a post where you said we should support the alt right protestors when they were protesting the injustice of "anti free speech laws"?

[PierzStyx]

Seriously?

Now you're just being ridiculous.

Apparently TV viewership is down overall, across all networks and programs.


Through week seven, the NFL is down 5% overall from the same point last year. That's a troubling drop for the biggest ratings powerhouse on TV, but it seems less dire when you consider that the four major networks are down an average 8% in prime time.

NBC is down 4%, CBS is down 6%, ABC is down 11%, and Fox's prime time viewership dropped 20% through the first month of the new TV season, according to Nielsen data. And those numbers are down despite the inclusion of live sporting events, which usually bring in big audiences.

The NFL's sluggish viewership may be less a symptom of the league's problems and more about what's happening in the TV environment overall. The landscape has become incredibly fragmented, thanks to a flood of programming and competition from streaming services and from the internet, not to mention a 24-hour news cycle that comes with a breathtaking amount of content. Television, Netflix, Hulu and Amazon are all vying for the same eyeballs, and there are no signs that the deluge of programming will ebb any time soon.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/26/media/nfl-ratings-tv-networks/index.html

Looks to me like, more than anything, the internet is killing TV, including NFL TV ratings.

[enhanced_deficit]

http://www.allthosethingsilove.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Fullscreen-capture-972012-20019-PM.bmp.jpg



Papa John Loses Dough: Pizza Chain Founder Loses $70 Million In Hours, Blames NFL (https://www.forbes.com/sites/noahkirsch/2017/11/01/papa-johns-founder-net-worth-falls-70-million-in-hours-blames-nfl-protests/)
Forbes Nov 1, 2017





Related Coverage

Papa John's Blames the NFL for Hurting Pizza Sales (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-01/papa-john-s-blames-nfl-debacle-for-hurting-sales-of-its-pizza)
Highly Cited Bloomberg Nov 1, 2017

Papa John’s International Inc. founder John Schnatter is going after NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, saying weak handling of the league’s national-anthem controversy has hammered sales of his pizza.
“The NFL has hurt us by not resolving the current debacle to the players’ and owners’ satisfaction,” Schnatter, who serves as the pizza chain’s chairman and chief executive officer, said on a conference call. “NFL leadership has hurt Papa John’s shareholders.”
The remarks follow a controversy over NFL football players protesting during the national anthem, a movement that started last season. The demonstrations have sparked calls for a boycott and raised concerns among league sponsors. But Schnatter’s comments mark the highest-profile example of an NFL partner publicly blaming the outcry for hurting business.

[PierzStyx]

Obviously you're not going to come out and say it. But we can infer it from your posts. Like putting all the blame on white people for the current problems in South Africa.

Can you show me a post where you said we should support the alt right protestors when they were protesting the injustice of "anti free speech laws"?

In addition to be a hateful person, you're also apparent a liar. This whole post is an obvious Ad hominem Fallacy, meaning your reasoning is compromised. Next thing we know you're going to be accusing him Ender of being a Communist unless he can prove otherwise, or a rapist, or a space alien, or whatever idiocy you think you can do to smudge his name. After all, you can't disprove his arguments so you're reduced to trying to poison his reputation to try and distract from your intellectual impotence.

[PierzStyx]

Socialists, like all other incorrigible criminal types, must be physically removed from society, if that society is to continue to exist. You cannot have a peaceful, happy neighborhood based on respect for each other's property rights if instead of neighbors you are surrounded by freaks who want to utterly remove your property rights.

Says the one who wants to utterly remove the liberty and property rights of others for the evils of thoughtcrime. We'll build freedom by purging everyone who dares think anything not approved by the Central Committee, right Comrade? Or do you prefer Herr, Obergruppenführer? Either way that is some true Orwellian doublethink you've got going on there.

A society where everyone has to believe what you think is not free at all. It is an authoritarian monstrosity with the most oppressive laws possible. And you are an enemy to liberty.

[enhanced_deficit]

http://www.allthosethingsilove.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Fullscreen-capture-972012-20019-PM.bmp.jpg



Papa John Loses Dough: Pizza Chain Founder Loses $70 Million In Hours, Blames NFL (https://www.forbes.com/sites/noahkirsch/2017/11/01/papa-johns-founder-net-worth-falls-70-million-in-hours-blames-nfl-protests/)
Forbes Nov 1, 2017





Related Coverage

Papa John's Blames the NFL for Hurting Pizza Sales (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-01/papa-john-s-blames-nfl-debacle-for-hurting-sales-of-its-pizza)
Highly Cited Bloomberg Nov 1, 2017

Papa John’s International Inc. founder John Schnatter is going after NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, saying weak handling of the league’s national-anthem controversy has hammered sales of his pizza.
“The NFL has hurt us by not resolving the current debacle to the players’ and owners’ satisfaction,” Schnatter, who serves as the pizza chain’s chairman and chief executive officer, said on a conference call. “NFL leadership has hurt Papa John’s shareholders.”
The remarks follow a controversy over NFL football players protesting during the national anthem, a movement that started last season. The demonstrations have sparked calls for a boycott and raised concerns among league sponsors. But Schnatter’s comments mark the highest-profile example of an NFL partner publicly blaming the outcry for hurting business.




Could be Russian hand behind the NFL / NFL sponsor pizza sales drop:

The NFL protest debate is a great example of Russia using Twitter to manipulate Americans (http://mashable.com/2017/11/01/facebook-twitter-google-hearing-nfl-boycott-take-a-knee/)
Mashable Nov 1, 2017

[Madison320]

In addition to be a hateful person, you're also apparent a liar. This whole post is an obvious Ad hominem Fallacy, meaning your reasoning is compromised. Next thing we know you're going to be accusing him Ender of being a Communist unless he can prove otherwise, or a rapist, or a space alien, or whatever idiocy you think you can do to smudge his name. After all, you can't disprove his arguments so you're reduced to trying to poison his reputation to try and distract from your intellectual impotence.


Here's the one about South Africa:




"How to fix South Africa?"

South Africa's apartheid was bad but the current system is much worse. I think the incredible downfall of South Africa is a perfect lab experiment of democracy on steroids. Forget about the race angle, it's the unproductive voting to steal from the productive that's the problem. They turned their country into a socialist basket case in 25 years. I think the solution is to change the pool of voters. You have no "right" to vote to steal from someone else. If you are a parasite to the system you should not be allowed to vote. I'm not sure the best way to implement this, maybe only net taxpayers? Maybe a poll tax? Maybe only those who receive NO government benefits? But I'm sure the current system of 1 man 1 vote is seriously flawed.




Get the West outta there.



Here Ender criticizes Stefan Molyneux and later defends Nelson Mandela. Apparently Mandela, a communist, can be forgiven, but Molyneux cannot. That's inconsistent.



You mean the Stefan Molyneux that called Ron Paul a pig at the trough?





Can anyone tell me how he killed all these people when he was in prison during all those years? He was in solitary confinement much of the time. And he was a revolutionary fighting to free his people. Shall we say the FF are terrorists because of the Boston Massacre? Because they learned and used guerrilla warfare from the Indians were they savages?


By the way I view your silly neg rep as a pos rep! Considering the source!

[Ender]

Here's the one about South Africa:

Are you really using my very sensible remark, and also Ron Paul's POV, to try and make me look evil?

LOL!!!

Non-intervention is so unamerican! :rolleyes:


Here Ender criticizes Stefan Molyneux and later defends Nelson Mandela. Apparently Mandela, a communist, can be forgiven, but Molyneux cannot.

Stefan Molyneux.......your god..........

[Madison320]

Are you really using my very sensible remark, and also Ron Paul's POV, to try and make me look evil?

LOL!!!

Non-intervention is so unamerican! :rolleyes:



Stefan Molyneux.......your god..........

Nope. Your wrong. My position is consistent. I hate the Mandelas and the Molyneuxs of the world. You only hate the Molyneuxs.

I hate hypocrisy.

And show me where I ever supported Stefan Molyneux.

[Ender]

Nope. Your wrong. My position is consistent. I hate the Mandelas and the Molyneuxs of the world. You only hate the Molyneuxs.

I hate hypocrisy.

And show me where I ever supported Stefan Molyneux.

Dude- you just criticized me for criticizing Molyneux. :rolleyes: And what I said about Mandela was true- he was in jail when some of the things he was accused of happened. Was he perfect? Absolutely not.

[dannno]

Says the one who wants to utterly remove the liberty and property rights of others for the evils of thoughtcrime. We'll build freedom by purging everyone who dares think anything not approved by the Central Committee, right Comrade? Or do you prefer Herr, Obergruppenführer? Either way that is some true Orwellian doublethink you've got going on there.

A society where everyone has to believe what you think is not free at all. It is an authoritarian monstrosity with the most oppressive laws possible. And you are an enemy to liberty.


I don't think he wants to arrest anybody for thought crimes, you could arrest them for attempting to create a criminal organization though. It would be like arresting somebody in a murder for hire scheme.

[phill4paul]

This all could have been avoided if the NFL ownership simply made the teams stay in the locker rooms until after the Nationalism was over.

Game over. No bullshit controversy.

[Brian4Liberty]

Apparently TV viewership is down overall, across all networks and programs.

Looks to me like, more than anything, the internet is killing TV, including NFL TV ratings.

Sure, there is competition from Netflix, etc., but the networks have killed themselves by taking hard left positions. All of the late night shows might as well be old school communist propaganda shows. People are tired of it. Same with the NFL. I know of a lot of people who stopped watching (boycotted) NFL because of the politics, and they were doing it before Trump ever said anything about it.

People go to streaming after they turn off the networks. It's a chicken or egg debate. What came first, networks driving people away, or other options being available?

[Brian4Liberty]

This all could have been avoided if the NFL ownership simply made the teams stay in the locker rooms until after the Nationalism was over.

Game over. No bullshit controversy.

And they should have done it before this season started.

[Madison320]

Dude- you just criticized me for criticizing Molyneux. :rolleyes: And what I said about Mandela was true- he was in jail when some of the things he was accused of happened. Was he perfect? Absolutely not.

Did you forget what we're arguing about? Your criticism of Molyneux and support for Mandela supports my hypothesis. Here is my original post:



The problem is you're not consistent. You want us to forgive protestors who protest "black injustice" but not protestors who protest "white injustice".

As I've said before. I'm an equal opportunity hater. I hate black racist groups and white racist groups and I'm not going to support either.



The fact is that on any libertarian freedom scale Molyneux would rank miles higher than Mandela. Yet you support Mandela and criticize Molyneux. I think you are very condescending towards blacks, I prefer to hold everyone to the same standards.

[phill4paul]

And they should have done it before this season started.

Yup. Goodell screwed the pooch.

[Brian4Liberty]

Yup. Goodell screwed the pooch.

He may have been trying to keep getting some government money, but that was a bad calculation. Penny wise pound foolish. The NFL is losing far more money than government is going to give them,

[Zippyjuan]

He may have been trying to keep getting some government money, but that was a bad calculation. Penny wise pound foolish. The NFL is losing far more money than government is going to give them,

How much money is the government giving to the NFL?

[dannno]

How much money is the government giving to the NFL?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?469372-Chargers-Raiders-reveal-L-A-plan

Same issue, different sport

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?412982-Cubs-chairman-threatens-to-move-team-from-Wrigley

[Zippyjuan]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?469372-Chargers-Raiders-reveal-L-A-plan

Same issue, different sport

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?412982-Cubs-chairman-threatens-to-move-team-from-Wrigley

From my post there:


The San Diego Chargers and Oakland Raiders announced Thursday that they have collaborated on a proposal to build a privately financed, $1.7 billion stadium in Carson, California, that the two teams would share if they relocate to the Los Angeles market.

But even so, the Federal Government doesn't give any money to the NFL. Local governments may offer teams financial assistance or tax breaks. The teams themselves were never tax exempt and the league offices gave up their own tax exempt status a few years ago.

[Jamesiv1]

This all could have been avoided if the NFL ownership simply made the teams stay in the locker rooms until after the Nationalism was over.

Game over. No bullshit controversy.
What's the point of that?

Virtue signalling is no fun unless you can do it on national TV.

[specsaregood]

From my post there:

But even so, the Federal Government doesn't give any money to the NFL. Local governments may offer teams financial assistance or tax breaks. The teams themselves were never tax exempt and the league offices gave up their own tax exempt status a few years ago.

On that note, in the new GOP tax bill:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNpBXB7XkAAfAI3.jpg

926124547123961856

[Ender]

Did you forget what we're arguing about? Your criticism of Molyneux and support for Mandela supports my hypothesis. Here is my original post:



The fact is that on any libertarian freedom scale Molyneux would rank miles higher than Mandela. Yet you support Mandela and criticize Molyneux. I think you are very condescending towards blacks, I prefer to hold everyone to the same standards.

Right...... while you deliberately misinterpret anyone who doesn't march lockstep with your POV.

[enhanced_deficit]

Papa John's Pulls NFL-Associated Ads Citing 'Negative Consumer Sentiment'

Pizza chain Papa John's announced Wednesday that it is pulling its advertising associated with the NFL, according to ESPN's Darren Rovell.
Per Jonathan Maze of Nation's Restaurant News, Papa John's founder John Schnatter said sales are down due to "negative consumer sentiment" regarding the company's relationship with the NFL.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2741923-papa-johns-pulls-nfl-associated-ads-citing-negative-consumer-sentiment

[austin870]

Says the one who wants to utterly remove the liberty and property rights of others for the evils of thoughtcrime. We'll build freedom by purging everyone who dares think anything not approved by the Central Committee, right Comrade? Or do you prefer Herr, Obergruppenführer? Either way that is some true Orwellian doublethink you've got going on there.

A society where everyone has to believe what you think is not free at all. It is an authoritarian monstrosity with the most oppressive laws possible. And you are an enemy to liberty.

When a group moves from believing or speaking about something to extorting property by force that is a true enemy to liberty. Socialists are extortionists via mob rule using the government as their Agent Of Extortion. You are correct they do have the freedom to talk about extortion, robbery, burglary, money laundering etc as long as they don't carry any to action. Socialists have a real bad habit of carrying them to action and extortion. Actually the Central Committee was setup for wealth redistribution by force. The level of extortion was so high it had to be carried out by the military.

[acptulsa]

But even so, the Federal Government doesn't give any money to the NFL.

Oh? So the armed forces are no longer part of the Federal Government? Have they been taken over by the CIA then? Or do they officially not exist like the No Such Agency?

LOL

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/11/14-nfl-teams-took-tax-dollars-for-patriotic-pregame-displays/

http://reason.com/blog/2015/11/06/nfl-says-it-will-pay-pentagon-back-for-p

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/05/08/patriotism-price-us-military-paid-nfl-teams-honor-soldiers-games

https://deadspin.com/surprise-military-reunions-at-nfl-games-reach-peak-bull-1727940877

https://thinkprogress.org/nfl-dod-national-anthem-6f682cebc7cd/

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2015/11/06/Department-of-Defense-paid-53-million-to-pro-sports-for-military-tributes-report-says/stories/201511060140

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/pentagon-paid-nfl-displays-patriotism/

https://www.sbnation.com/2015/11/4/9670302/nfl-paid-patriotism-troops-mcain-flake-report-million

You'll like this one. It has enough numbers to make a chart:

http://www.adweek.com/brand-marketing/here-s-how-much-pentagon-paid-sports-teams-military-tributes-167939/

Lord, dude. The Zippy Account used to have some standards. Like, distract, change the subject, post misleading information, maybe lie a little if it's a really hard thing to double-check, but no obvious bullsheet. But ever since you people started pretending that the gold standard was fixing the price of gold, when it's really using gold as money, all the standards are down the sewer.

Well? Let's hear it. They don't get stadiums built for them/I was specifically talking about the Department of Agriculture/I didn't mean (fill in the blank). Let's hear how you intend to avoid owning this outright falsehood.

Come on. Out with it. 'The Marine Corps doesn't consider putting their message out there in front of young men who spent less of their time in school studying than getting concussions giving money away. The Corps considers that investing money.' Is that the jist of it?

[Madison320]

Right...... while you deliberately misinterpret anyone who doesn't march lockstep with your POV.

You mean like your response here?



Stefan Molyneux.......your god..........


The only "good" thing I can say about Molyneux is that he's way better than Nelson Mandela. Other than that I remember posting that he's unbearable to listen to because he never gets to the point.

See the pattern? I back up my statements with facts and links to previous posts. You back yours with nothing.

I will concede one thing. I remember you also were supporting Dennis Kucinich so maybe it's not so much black vs white, maybe it's communist vs capitalist. Maybe your view is that we should support communists if they have one positive trait, but not capitalists.

Question for you. Who would you rather have making the decisions for the country you live in, Molyneux or Mandela?

[Swordsmyth]

I will concede one thing. I remember you also were supporting Dennis Kucinich so maybe it's not so much black vs white, maybe it's communist vs capitalist. Maybe your view is that we should support communists if they have one positive trait, but not capitalists. Now you are beginning to understand, there are several other "fellow travelers" around here as well, they hate the west so badly that they will embrace anything or any one that tears it down, they should all change their avatars to Che.

[acptulsa]

Now you are beginning to understand, there are several other "fellow travelers" around here as well, they hate the west so badly that they will embrace anything or any one that tears it down, they should all change their avatars to Che.

"Fellow Travelers"? LOL. That's quite the antique dog whistle you've got there, buddy.

So, you might be close to understanding. By "the west", do you mean baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Shovrolet pieces of Government Motors crap? If so, you're way off target. Or by "the west", do you mean Rothschild-controlled, Federal Reserved-financed purveyors of poppies and conquerers of oil fields? If so, you might just understand how an eccentric, elderly socialist puppet of those same monsters managed to make a Pied Piper of himself and suck the Millennial heart out of this movement.

Yeah, disgust with The Empire is so strong they'll follow a cure worse than the disease, if they think it'll kill the disease. But, you know, people buy Chevrolets and swear they aren't supporting fascist government-corporate partnerships, too. The blindness and ignorance have equal sway on both sides of "the aisle". So maybe you're having a little trouble identifying the real enemy.

Ender is trying to find a way for those from both sides of " the aisle" who want to drain that stinking swamp to work together to drain that stinking swamp. Those who run around screeching that people from the other side of "the aisle" have leprocy, hepatitis and AIDS are preventing us from draining that stinking swamp. And that's why the alligators invented "the aisle"--to divide us and conquer us and prevent us from draining their nice, stinking swamp.

There are four groups. There are those who believe government is a swamp, and the solution is to make government small and keep it that way. There are those who believe government should be smaller, but it isn't really such a swamp. There are those who think government is a dandy thing. And there are those who see government is a swamp, but think it can be a dandy thing if we replace the alligators with actual humans. Now, you and I know that these last people aren't half as good at separating the humans from the alligators as they think they are. Kucinich was not an alligator, by the way, though his philosophy was foolish because it would keep power in the grasp of alligators. Sanders, on the other hand, is proof enough for you and me that these people can't tell humans from alligators. But regardless of all that, if we don't reach out to this last group, we aren't going to drain the swamp, because the middle two groups are literally capable of looking at the damned swamp and saying, my, that would make a nice golf course! This makes them fucking useless.

That makes Ender part of the solution, not part of the problem. Can you make the same claim?

[Swordsmyth]

"Fellow Travelers"? LOL. That's quite the antique dog whistle you've got there, buddy. So, you might be close to understanding. By "the west", do you mean baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Shovrolet pieces of Government Motors crap? If so, you're way off target. Or by "the west", do you mean Rothschild-controlled, Federal Reserved-financed purveyors of poppies and conquerers of oil fields? If so, you might just understand how an eccentric, elderly socialist puppet of those same monsters managed to make a Pied Piper of himself and suck the Millennial heart out of this movement. Yeah, disgust with The Empire is so strong they'll follow a cure worse than the disease, if they think it'll kill the disease. But, you know, people buy Chevrolets and swear they aren't supporting fascist government-corporate partnerships, too. The blindness and ignorance have equal sway on both sides of "the aisle". So maybe you're having a little trouble identifying the real enemy. Ender is trying to find a way for those from both sides of " the aisle" who want to drain that stinking swamp to work together to drain that stinking swamp. Those who run around screeching that people from the other side of "the aisle" have leprocy, hepatitis and AIDS are preventing us from draining that stinking swamp. And that's why the alligators invented "the aisle"--to divide us and conquer us and prevent us from draining their nice, stinking swamp. There are four groups. There are those who believe government is a swamp, and the solution is to make government small and keep it that way. There are those who believe government should be smaller, but it isn't really such a swamp. There are those who think government is a dandy thing. And there are those who see government is a swamp, but think it can be a dandy thing if we replace the alligators with actual humans. Now, you and I know that these last people aren't half as good at separating the humans from the alligators as they think they are. Kucinich was not an alligator, by the way, though his philosophy was foolish because it would keep power in the grasp of alligators. Sanders, on the other hand, is proof enough for you and me that these people can't tell humans from alligators. But regardless of all that, if we don't reach out to this last group, we aren't going to drain the swamp, because the middle two groups are literally capable of looking at the damned swamp and saying, my, that would make a nice golf course! This makes them $#@!ing useless. That makes Ender part of the solution, not part of the problem. Can you make the same claim? I will work with Ender or even Kucinich when we are on the same side of an issue, just like Dr. Ron, but there are people who are like an out of control immune system, they over-react to the disease and begin destroying the body, and I will oppose them when they are doing more damage to the body than the disease. Depending on your point of view the west is better, worse or equivalent to the other competing cultures of the world, I believe that the west is better than the others, I can get along with those who believe the west to be equivalent to other cultures but I will but heads with those who claim it is worse, the other cultures all had/have their own swamp creatures and it is destructive to tear down what we have if we are only going to replace it with an equivalent.

[Ender]

You mean like your response here?



The only "good" thing I can say about Molyneux is that he's way better than Nelson Mandela. Other than that I remember posting that he's unbearable to listen to because he never gets to the point.

See the pattern? I back up my statements with facts and links to previous posts. You back yours with nothing.

I will concede one thing. I remember you also were supporting Dennis Kucinich so maybe it's not so much black vs white, maybe it's communist vs capitalist. Maybe your view is that we should support communists if they have one positive trait, but not capitalists.

Question for you. Who would you rather have making the decisions for the country you live in, Molyneux or Mandela?

I wasn't supporting Kucinich- I was showing how Ron Paul and he worked together on stuff and had a deep respect for each other. Instead of looking at this some got their panties in a twist & refused to read what RP had said about Kucinich.

And my answer to your question is NEITHER.

[helmuth_hubener]

I don't think 'they' want to come for the socialists. The only true enemies of the powers that be are the people who refute and oppose them, not those who worship them.

Niemöller's poem in today's terms would be more like:

"First they came for the libertarians and that was it. The end."

Not quite as inspirational I suppose.

:D Exactly!

It's really not that complicated!

[Madison320]

Now you are beginning to understand, there are several other "fellow travelers" around here as well, they hate the west so badly that they will embrace anything or any one that tears it down, they should all change their avatars to Che.

Yup. As if the rest of the world would be a libertarian paradise if it weren't for the west. They forget the fact that communism is the direct opposite to libertarianism.

[Madison320]

I wasn't supporting Kucinich- I was showing how Ron Paul and he worked together on stuff and had a deep respect for each other. Instead of looking at this some got their panties in a twist & refused to read what RP had said about Kucinich.

And my answer to your question is NEITHER.

So do you feel the same about Trump? Should we work with him on the things we agree about and try to convince him to change his mind where he's wrong?


That's a non answer. Ok, I'll ask it a different way. Who is more freedom oriented? Molyneux or Mandela?

[Gumba of Liberty]

:D Exactly!

It's really not that complicated!

Not exactly. The State and the Fiat Empire controlling it uses scapegoats as an excuse to grow in power and violate the Natural Rights of the People.

First they came for the Communists (and built the Military Industrial Complex.)
Then they came for the Drug Users (and stated the War on Drugs.)
Then they came for the Terrorists (and built the Police State.)
Then they came for the Racists (and abolished Freedom of Speech.)
Then they came for the Cash Users (and abolished Independent Wealth.)
Then they came for the Gun Owners (and extinguished the American Resistance to the New “Anglo-Zionist Banking” World Order.)

[acptulsa]

Molyneux or Mandela?

The Swamp threw Mandela in prison. Molyneux carries water for the swamp.

Should we give up on draining the swamp until Trump cuts the size of the federal government and the 14,000 federal regulations that make everything illegal (including breathing, in certain circumstances)? Yes, you say? Cutting that stuff is more important than ridding ourselves of the most corrupt bunch of sadistic robber barons since Louis XVI and his buddy Marquis de Sade?

So, is Trump cutting five complete cabinet departments like Ron Paul would have done? Is he cutting three cabinet departments like Rick Perry said he would do? Is he cutting anything at all? Or is he just failing to pass some--maybe even most--of the additional regulations that Obama put in the pipeline? Indeed, is Rick Perry not now in charge of one of the cabinet departments he himself promised to cut?

Should we work with him on things we agree about? Depends. Is he going to stop trying to stick that puny pacifier in our mouths and get around to doing some actual work? That's a yes or no question, by the way. 'Let's keep sucking his cock like a good little cuck and see if we get a treat someday' is not an option.

I know all good conservatives like to pretend we're Superman and can fix the world without making a single friend. But Superman is as fictitious as the Leftist's unicorn, so we might just have a few allies--or give up and just roll over and take that pacifier in the ass as well. Or is that too real world to even consider?

[helmuth_hubener]

Interesting.

I believe they said the same thing about the Jews in that day.

Freedom is only for the pure, amirite? INSTEAD OF LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AND CONVERTING THEM TO TRUTH THROUGH COMPASSION, LET'S JUST:

"Remove freak Socialists physically from society, so MY society can continue to exist."

Tell me how that is any different than the very ones YOU condemn.

I will certainly be glad to explain. First, ask thineself: dost thou really want to understand? If thou hast come to dislike me -- as is definitely the case -- thine amygdala will shut out my words, as sure and surer as any ear plugs.

You are presenting the Shining Happy Peasants Holding Hands Across the World vision. It's a nice vision. But it's exceeding shallow and naive. It's also a decidedly Rabbit vision. It really does not appeal to the K-selected (the competitive, the conservative). No emotional resonance. We'd rather compete and win and care for our own glowing hearths and beloved kin, and just do not emotionally care about the endless hordes of peasants and riff-raff around the world. To hold their hands would be ectasy for thee, but for me, it is "meh". No interest.

So, what do the K-selected care about? Practicalities. Reality. Their families. And thus: Winning. These people, like me, care more about creating a good life for their children than signaling their virtue to their leftist friends. An *actual* good life (results matter). Their loyalty to their grandkids is stronger than their loyalty to some Imaginary Utopia.

Does that make sense to you, Ender? I already know it doesn't. It's a different world, a very different emotional landscape than the one ye inhabit. Still, I write, for others.

Anyway, it's very interesting stuff, really solid, fascinating science. However, as I just said in reply to Nobody's Hero, this is anything but complicated. It's really, really simple!

Freedom good.
Socialism bad.

Socialism bad, bad, bad, bad.

That's nice that you want to take the side of the socialists in opposition to the side of the libertarians, and do so on a libertarian forum, no less! A bit quixotic, but hey, you've got to follow your heart!

[Ender]

I will certainly be glad to explain. First, ask thineself: dost thou really want to understand? If thou hast come to dislike me -- as is definitely the case -- thine amygdala will shut out my words, as sure and surer as any ear plugs.

You are presenting the Shining Happy Peasants Holding Hands Across the World vision. It's a nice vision. But it's exceeding shallow and naive. It's also a decidedly Rabbit vision. It really does not appeal to the K-selected (the competitive, the conservative). No emotional resonance. We'd rather compete and win and care for our own glowing hearths and beloved kin, and just do not emotionally care about the endless hordes of peasants and riff-raff around the world. To hold their hands would be ectasy for thee, but for me, it is "meh". No interest.

So, what do the K-selected care about? Practicalities. Reality. Their families. And thus: Winning. These people, like me, care more about creating a good life for their children than signaling their virtue to their leftist friends. An *actual* good life (results matter). Their loyalty to their grandkids is stronger than their loyalty to some Imaginary Utopia.

Does that make sense to you, Ender? I already know it doesn't. It's a different world, a very different emotional landscape than the one ye inhabit. Still, I write, for others.

Anyway, it's very interesting stuff, really solid, fascinating science. However, as I just said in reply to Nobody's Hero, this is anything but complicated. It's really, really simple!

Freedom good.
Socialism bad.

Socialism bad, bad, bad, bad.

That's nice that you want to take the side of the socialists in opposition to the side of the libertarians, and do so on a libertarian forum, no less! A bit quixotic, but hey, you've got to follow your heart!

Never have I made that statement.

Maybe it is YOU who should learn something from Ron Paul, stop your hate, and better-than-thou-bullshite and learn what LIBERTY really means.

[Ender]

The Swamp threw Mandela in prison. Molyneux carries water for the swamp.

Should we give up on draining the swamp until Trump cuts the size of the federal government and the 14,000 federal regulations that make everything illegal (including breathing, in certain circumstances)? Yes, you say? Cutting that stuff is more important than ridding ourselves of the most corrupt bunch of sadistic robber barons since Louis XVI and his buddy Marquis de Sade?

So, is Trump cutting five complete cabinet departments like Ron Paul would have done? Is he cutting three cabinet departments like Rick Perry said he would do? Is he cutting anything at all? Or is he just failing to pass some--maybe even most--of the additional regulations that Obama put in the pipeline? Indeed, is Rick Perry not now in charge of one of the cabinet departments he himself promised to cut?

Should we work with him on things we agree about? Depends. Is he going to stop trying to stick that puny pacifier in our mouths and get around to doing some actual work? That's a yes or no question, by the way. 'Let's keep sucking his cock like a good little cuck and see if we get a treat someday' is not an option.

I know all good conservatives like to pretend we're Superman and can fix the world without making a single friend. But Superman is as fictitious as the Leftist's unicorn, so we might just have a few allies--or give up and just roll over and take that pacifier in the ass as well. Or is that too real world to even consider?

In full agreement-

[Ender]

Not exactly. The State and the Fiat Empire controlling it uses scapegoats as an excuse to grow in power and violate the Natural Rights of the People.

First they came for the Communists (and built the Military Industrial Complex.)
Then they came for the Drug Users (and stated the War on Drugs.)
Then they came for the Terrorists (and built the Police State.)
Then they came for the Racists (and abolished Freedom of Speech.)
Then they came for the Cash Users (and abolished Independent Wealth.)
Then they came for the Gun Owners (and extinguished the American Resistance to the New “Anglo-Zionist Banking” World Order.)

^^^THIS^^^

[Superfluous Man]

Say what you want. Free market forces at work.

Not exactly. Behind the patriotic fervor of the lemmings is governmental interference in the markets through getting America into wars and all that that entails, most notably conscription and propaganda, as well as paying the NFL to engage in patriotic displays.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/nfl-national-anthem-trump-kaepernick-history-trnd/index.html

[Madison320]

In full agreement-

Who is more freedom oriented? Molyneux or Mandela? It's not a trick question.

[acptulsa]

Who is more freedom oriented? Molyneux or Mandela? It's not a trick question.

Yes it is. It very much is.

Mandela was pro-socialism. Molyneux is pro-swamp. This makes both of them half bad.

Which evil do you want to tackle first would be a legitimate question. But to your trick question, the only intelligent answer is, Molyneux is a greater threat to liberty for the solid and sound reason that Mandela is dead

[acptulsa]

Zippyjuan! You're back! Got any clarification for our edification yet?

[helmuth_hubener]

Never have I made that statement. And, happily, I did not accuse you of making any statement. Right? Go back and check. Yep, sure enough, no statement claimed by Helmuth to have been made by Ender. So, perfect! Agreement! We can join hands in love, harmony, and total agreement. Yes!




Maybe it is YOU who should stop your hate Behold, the Rabbit mind. All I did was nicely, politely explain the K-selected mindset to him, and he feels hate. He starts spewing vulgarities at me (despite being a minister!). Everyone, please understand that I think Ender actually does experience this as hate. He's sincere. Just hearing about it, even in the nicest possible way, and safely over the Internet, is enough to trigger the threat response.

Anyway, let's drop that line of thought since Ender is not going to be able to understand any of it, much less contribute to the discussion; it will just agitate him.

Let's talk about free speech, because that's interesting, too. And very important!

As for me, I am a bit of an absolutist on free speech, you could say. Some say there should be limits. I tend to think not. I am inclined to allow everything: fire-related shouting in theaters, slander and libel, and yes, even death threats. What, you say? Surely it shouldn't be legal to go around saying "I am going to kill you!" I would say it should be. What should not be legal is taking actual actions to implement your murderous plan. Making the threat of the crime itself not a crime will pose no real hinderance to enforcement and punishment of the criminal for a well-functioning crime-prevention system.

Likewise, it should be technically legal to make all other criminal threats, such as "I want to tax you," or "I believe in Universal Health Care," or "We need to make laws to end Global Warming." It's only consistent. Spew forth whatever words you want. What should be illegal is to actually believe these things! ;). In other words, to take any actions, such as but not limited to: joining the Democrat or Socialist Party, donating money to people promising to carry out these threats, organizing clubs, advocacy groups, or mob actions trying to make these criminal threats real, or anything else tangibly advancing (or attempting to advance) the criminal goals of socialism, communism, or any other criminal ideology.

Hope that clears that up!

Somebody starts making criminal threats (such as saying "I'm with Marx" or "I'm with Charles Manson" or wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt) then law enforcement should simply be activated, he should be followed everywhere he goes, surrounded by well-armed men, actively monitored and prevented from following through on his criminal threat (or any other effective preventative measures). This continues until he permanently leaves the society. If at any time he does something to attempt to further the goals of socialism, that is, follow through and commit an actual crime, he should and must be forcibly physically removed.

Look, a society that tolerates authoritarians cannot survive as a free society. The people matter. Society is its people. If a population consists 80% of supporters of authoritarianism, what kind of society will that be? Come on, just take a wild guess.

This is really not that complicated.

Freedom good.
Tyranny bad.

Tyranny bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

Freedom will be in places where the *people* love and value freedom. Tyranny will exist where people buy into tyranny. The freedom people -- namely me, for example -- have a right to exclude the tyranny-lovers from their community. If they do not, then bottom line: that means they would not have the right to exist. They would not have a right to freedom. They will never have freedom unless they can exclude and physically expel the parasites and criminals who would rule over them and rob their property.

This is really basic stuff. It's so simple.

[Ender]

And, happily, I did not accuse you of making any statement. Right? Go back and check. Yep, sure enough, no statement claimed by Helmuth to have been made by Ender. So, perfect! Agreement! We can join hands in love, harmony, and total agreement. Yes!



Behold, the Rabbit mind. All I did was nicely, politely explain the K-selected mindset to him, and he feels hate. He starts spewing vulgarities at me (despite being a minister!). Everyone, please understand that I think Ender actually does experience this as hate. He's sincere. Just hearing about it, even in the nicest possible way, and safely over the Internet, is enough to trigger the threat response.

Anyway, let's drop that line of thought since Ender is not going to be able to understand any of it, much less contribute to the discussion; it will just agitate him.

Let's talk about free speech, because that's interesting, too. And very important!

As for me, I am a bit of an absolutist on free speech, you could say. Some say there should be limits. I tend to think not. I am inclined to allow everything: fire-related shouting in theaters, slander and libel, and yes, even death threats. What, you say? Surely it shouldn't be legal to go around saying "I am going to kill you!" I would say it should be. What should not be legal is taking actual actions to implement your murderous plan. Making the threat of the crime itself not a crime will pose no real hinderance to enforcement and punishment of the criminal for a well-functioning crime-prevention system.

Likewise, it should be technically legal to make all other criminal threats, such as "I want to tax you," or "I believe in Universal Health Care," or "We need to make laws to end Global Warming." It's only consistent. Spew forth whatever words you want. What should be illegal is to actually believe these things! ;). In other words, to take any actions, such as but not limited to: joining the Democrat or Socialist Party, donating money to people promising to carry out these threats, organizing clubs, advocacy groups, or mob actions trying to make these criminal threats real, or anything else tangibly advancing (or attempting to advance) the criminal goals of socialism, communism, or any other criminal ideology.

Hope that clears that up!

Somebody starts making criminal threats (such as saying "I'm with Marx" or "I'm with Charles Manson" or wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt) then law enforcement should simply be activated, he should be followed everywhere he goes, surrounded by well-armed men, actively monitored and prevented from following through on his criminal threat (or any other effective preventative measures). This continues until he permanently leaves the society. If at any time he does something to attempt to further the goals of socialism, that is, follow through and commit an actual crime, he should and must be forcibly physically removed.

Look, a society that tolerates authoritarians cannot survive as a free society. The people matter. Society is its people. If a population consists 80% of supporters of authoritarianism, what kind of society will that be? Come on, just take a wild guess.

This is really not that complicated.

Freedom good.
Tyranny bad.

Tyranny bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

Freedom will be in places where the *people* love and value freedom. Tyranny will exist where people buy into tyranny. The freedom people -- namely me, for example -- have a right to exclude the tyranny-lovers from their community. If they do not, then bottom line: that means they would not have the right to exist. They would not have a right to freedom. They will never have freedom unless they can exclude and physically expel the parasites and criminals who would rule over them and rob their property.

This is really basic stuff. It's so simple.

As long as it's freedom for YOU, amirite?

And, yes, you did accuse me:


That's nice that you want to take the side of the socialists in opposition to the side of the libertarians, and do so on a libertarian forum, no less! A bit quixotic, but hey, you've got to follow your heart!

I am against anti-freedom. If you promote that, I'm going to call you on it, especially when you were not asked to join in my conversation.

As for my ministry:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAbjI5CKQYQ&t=16s

"I'm not that kind of angel." ;)

[euphemia]

Except you are taking an anti liberty position. Players are free to do what they want and fans can do what they want. That' the problem with the entertainment industry. Offend the consumer and expect to lose money. Ask the Dixie Chicks.

[Ender]

Except you are taking an anti liberty position. Players are free to do what they want and fans can do what they want. That' the problem with the entertainment industry. Offend the consumer and expect to lose money. Ask the Dixie Chicks.

Are you are talking to me?

[Swordsmyth]

Yes it is. It very much is.

Mandela was pro-socialism. Molyneux is pro-swamp. This makes both of them half bad.

Which evil do you want to tackle first would be a legitimate question. But to your trick question, the only intelligent answer is, Molyneux is a greater threat to liberty for the solid and sound reason that Mandela is dead

Alright who is more opposed to liberty? Molyneux?(Note: I dislike him) Or Kucinich?(He is still alive)

[Madison320]

Alright who is more opposed to liberty? Molyneux?(Note: I dislike him) Or Kucinich?(He is still alive)

Apparently Ender and acptulsa think communists like Kucinich and Mandela are more liberty oriented then guys like Molyneux and Trump. That's why they want us to "forgive their faults" and "work with them where we agree". The problem is they don't feel the same about people like Molyneux and Trump.

The funny thing is that on the freedom scale it's not even close. If I had to rank them it'd be:

Mandela: 1
Kucinich: 2
Trump: 5
Molyneux: 8
Ron Paul: 10

[Swordsmyth]

Alright who is more opposed to liberty? Molyneux?(Note: I dislike him) Or Kucinich?(He is still alive)
Ender acptulsa

I'm waitng.................

[enhanced_deficit]

Brands are threatening to pull ads from NFL coverage if NBC keeps covering players' national-anthem protests



Mike Shields
Nov. 3, 2017, 4:53 PM





NBCUniversal says that marketers want the league to stop covering the players' national-anthem protests or they will pull their ads.
An executive at the media company thinks the controversy around the protests has hurt ratings.


http://www.businessinsider.com/brands-say-theyll-pull-ads-from-nfl-if-nbc-keeps-covering-protests-2017-11

[helmuth_hubener]

As long as it's freedom for YOU, amirite? Umm, actually: as long as it's not "IMAGINARY FAIRY" freedom. Because that, actually, is freedom for NOBODY. (Though it may make you sound virtuous to other dead-enders! :) )


Freedom, by its nature, applies to everybody within the free community.

Freedom, by its nature, does not exist in communities where there is a sizable population of authoritarians accepted and embraced as "part of the community."



Again, this is stupidly simple. It is the fun of "discussions" like this (better called "encounters" for there is nothing like thought nor discourse emanating from one of the sides) that the Rabbit mind will never accept this. It will never, never accept something blatantly obvious like "Siding with Socialists is Siding Against Freedom."


http://americandigest.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/sjwdoubldown.jpg

[helmuth_hubener]

Socialists do not have a 'right' to be socialist -- if they did, freedom would be an impossible absurdity.

Ender claims (and correct me if I've misunderstood, Ender! (I haven't)) all the different flavors of tyranny have the 'right' to do what they want to do -- namely, to tyrannize and terrorize us in all the innumerable colorful ways that Ender wants preserved -- and yet we also have the right to be rid of them. Wait, what? Exactly. It is one or the other. Either the rainbow nation tyrants have the 'right' to wave their rainbow flags over us and stomp us with their rainbow boots, or we decent people have the right to hang such critters from the lampposts.

Tyrants do not have a 'right' to be a tyrant.

Duh!

I mean, I think everyone here (other than Ender and SJWs or others of the Rabbit-leaning persuasion) can agree: this is stupid to have to be explaining this.

"And, yes, you did accuse me [of siding with socialists]"

Uhh, yeah: duh! Because, like, you did! Is that, like, fair and junk to point out, like, obvious stuff that actually happened?

If not, totally my bad.


"As for my ministry:

[video eating lots of sugar]"

So you love sugar. You're a dopamine addict. Gotta love that dopamine rush you get from that good, good, white powder suga, eh?

So... obese?

And your ministry is I guess promoting obesity, convincing other kids to become obese, and preaching obesity tolerance?

This is yet another way you are going to get cross-ways with the K-Selected. To us, the obese should be ridiculed, scorned, and shunned by normal society. At minimum they should be very much looked down upon. These are people with a lack of self-control, lack of self-discipline, who are too stupid or too worthless to notice when they are becoming unhealthily plump and to do something about it.

Eating sugar is stupid.

Supporting socialists' alleged "right" to be socialists and thus to cram socialism down your throat is stupid.

The Negro Felon League is stupid.

There's, like, a lot of stupid stuff out there! It's a beautiful rainbow of stupid, it's true. Too bad meanie-pantses like me would rather extinctify this vibrant rainbow instead of working to Preserve and Cherish and cOeXiSt!1 with it.

[euphemia]

Are you are talking to me?

No, just generally saying that market forces come into play faster in the entertainment industry than any other.

[helmuth_hubener]

Ender acptulsa

I'm waitng.................

Come on now, don't lump in Tulsa with Ender. Tulsa one time said something positive about the horrible, evil, murdering tyrant Nelson Mandela, and even then only in a round-about way (that 'the swamp' supposedly killed him or whatever (good riddance) and so maybe the enemy of our enemy... anyway, he made the effort to make it indirect, you see?). Anyone can make a slip-up. That's all it is. A slip-up.

As long as he now shuts up about it and does not "double down" and say further complimentary things about Nelson Mandela, who obviously was a horrible, evil, murdering tyrant, and someone as smart as acptulsa can of course see this obvious fact, let's let it slide and drop.

Tulsa's smart. I like Tulsa. Let's keep him around.

[Madison320]

Ender acptulsa

I'm waitng.................

Ender's M.O. is to refuse to disclose his position and then get outraged when we are forced to assume his stance on something. It's actually a pretty good tactic. You're never wrong if you never answer the question. Then again it kind of defeats the purpose of having a forum to debate ideas if you're just spouting propaganda without having to explain your position.

[Jamesiv1]

how did it go yesterday with the take-a-knee stuff? Did many teams do it? Did it get much coverage?

[euphemia]

Dunno. Didn't watch. Took hubby out for an anniversary dinner. He chose cheeseburgers, so we went to a local place we have never visited before. Yum.

[otherone]

how did it go yesterday with the take-a-knee stuff? Did many teams do it? Did it get much coverage?

Yesterday was a "gee, ain't the military swell?" day, with ads having players talk about how swell the military is, and coaches wearing khaki team gear. I almost cried, it was so touching. Pretty much left me feeling we'd be stupid NOT to mangle another generation of kids for reasons that I can't seem to remember. Oh yeah...freedom. And muslims.

[Swordsmyth]

Come on now, don't lump in Tulsa with Ender. Tulsa one time said something positive about the horrible, evil, murdering tyrant Nelson Mandela, and even then only in a round-about way (that 'the swamp' supposedly killed him or whatever (good riddance) and so maybe the enemy of our enemy... anyway, he made the effort to make it indirect, you see?). Anyone can make a slip-up. That's all it is. A slip-up.

As long as he now shuts up about it and does not "double down" and say further complimentary things about Nelson Mandela, who obviously was a horrible, evil, murdering tyrant, and someone as smart as acptulsa can of course see this obvious fact, let's let it slide and drop.

Tulsa's smart. I like Tulsa. Let's keep him around.

I also find tulsa to be more reasonable than ender, but tulsa dodged the question about Mandela vs. Molyneux so I changed it to Kucinich since he is still alive and all I hear from either one is crickets.

[helmuth_hubener]

And my answer to your question [who is better, Stefan Molyneux or Murderer Mandela?] is NEITHER.

Behold, the Ideologue. Unable to think in gradients, unable to make reasonable judgment calls, unable, in short, to deal with reality.

A normal person could say 'I'd rather have Stefan in charge, instituting libertarian reforms, than to have a known and proven evil, Murdering Communist in charge.' Like, even if that normal person were not in any way a libertarian he could say that, just by virtue of being normal.

A normal person could say 'All else equal, I'd rather the tax rate lower to 10% rather than increase to 23%.' They would even be capable of preferring 11% to 13%! Imagine. The Enders of the World? Can't. Their answer: "Neither."

"Neither."

In other words, "I don't care about reality, I hate reality, I can't deal with reality, I'm just going to virtue signal."

If a crazy does not and cannot bring himself to prefer more freedom and less tyranny to less freedom and more tyranny, do you think that he really truly would prefer total freedom and no tyranny? Even if he strenuously claims to? Could you really believe someone like that? Or is the crazy just delusional/lying/who-cares-but-obviously-crazy?

Here's a good blog post on the topic by the Anonymous Conservative:

Amygdala and Societal Shifts
Posted on November 3, 2017 by Anonymous Conservative

Sam J writes in the comments:


Maybe this explains why societal changes happen so fast. A small group steadfastly sticks to a position until they reach a certain trigger point then all the r’s switch to what they see as the winning side. These deep shifts could be thought of as “r” selected shifts. Not just a change in information that people suddenly see as true. A stampede.

It would seem to make this shift happen the best way to push it, given the irrationality of the “r’s” is for whatever side wants to win to make AS MUCH NOISE AS POSSIBLE. So all the people saying that Klan, KKK. Nazis, Anti-Semites and other assorted loud noisy people are doing harm is inaccurate. The fighting in Charlottesville was super eye candy to the r’s. They’re necessary for the noise. This would also explain how with all the corruption and dishonesty in the US State they can continue to hold power as long as the mass media continues to blurt out the State’s side. No matter how irrational, as the recent events in Vegas show. This is starting to break down as no young people watch much of the TV news at all and don’t believe what they’re saying anyways.

I agree with this. There are a large swath of sheep who, even though they don’t know it, have amygdalae which seek calm by subconsciously aligning with the winning side, and often that is the loudest, most scary side. I imagine anything triggering would do it, from unashamed white supremacists to just massive crowds marching to drumbeats, and chanting cadences in perfect unison, like Marines jogging in formation. To align against that would be amygdala-stimulating, and their brain feels that amygdala sensation the same way we feel something is wrong – it bothers them until they adopt what they see as “right.”

This is an important point for the Aspies who like this site to understand. Note that amygdala is a feeling, and it is that feeling which guides your logical analysis, and does it the same way a feeling guides your deeper emotional preferences. If your commitment is to truth, that is an emotional commitment, driven by the same amygdala-pain you feel when your loved one suffers with an illness, or when you see a helpless animal hurt unnecessarily. It is the emotional drive that motivates you to seek the unemotional logic. It is a deep emotional hatred for wrong that motivates us to seek right. It is the illogical that drives us to pursue the logical, especially in a world which is so upside down that the illogical people actually thrive on illogicality. Imagine how much money you could have made under Obama by adopting the left’s bologna and filing for global warming research grants, or setting up immigrant processing companies. It was your emotion, not your logic holding you back.

Realize that your pursuit of the logical and the correct is driven by the same amygdala that other’s feel in response to insecurity, fear, and lack of pleasure. When SJWs say they feel unsafe and that is wrong, that is the same feeling you get when you feel logically wrong – a nagging cognitive shock produced by the amygdala that you cannot abide by, and which you feel needs rectification.

So when the r-strategist with an easily panicked amygdala sees a nation warming up the ovens, they will quickly conclude the oven operators have a logical point – immigrants are fucking up the nation, Blacks/Mexicans/Muslims/Any-group-in-opposition-to-the-oven-operators are not actually human, and the ovens are a logical step which the decent were forced to by the intransigence of “these enemies of decency.”

I truly believe the extremists in movements, which Eric Hoffer wrote about, are r-selected rabbits with stress-intolerant amygdalae who use extremism as an amygdala-calming technique because they have to. We don’t need that calm, so we can tolerate gray areas and moderate our ideals, and even say we don’t know stuff. Our amygdalae can exist in that state of mild stimulation. Their amygdalae cannot because they need certainty and they need to be in the group firmly and feel they belong, if they are to feel safe.

[otherone]

In other words, "I don't care about reality, I hate reality, I can't deal with reality, I'm just going to virtue signal."


Speaking of reality, I hope you see the irony in calling someone an ideologue for failing to respond to a hypothetical choice.

[Swordsmyth]

Legendary Sportscaster Vin Scully: "I'll Never Watch Another NFL Game"http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-06/legendary-sportscaster-vin-scully-ill-never-watch-another-nfl-game

[helmuth_hubener]

Speaking of reality, I hope you see the irony in calling someone an ideologue for failing to respond to a hypothetical choice.

I am all about ironies! ;) :D


It doesn't really matter that it was hypothetical. Another good example of a choice that an ideologue would be incapable of making a judgment on is: who would you rather live under, JFK or Pol Pot? I guess that's still hypothetical because in the past -- make it Hans-Adam II or Mugabe. I mean, pretty simple call, but the Ideologue, lost and blind, would refuse to and be unable to make it. I gave the tax-rate example already, hardly hypothetical. Here's another ideologue circuit-jammer: who was a better President, Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama? Or, how about this fun one: who would be a better President: Donald J. Trump or Hillary Clinton?

Aack! Does not com-pute! Sys-tem melt-down! Systemmeltdown!

Neither! Neither! Neither!

[otherone]

I am all about ironies! ;) :D


It doesn't really matter that it was hypothetical. Another good example of a choice that an ideologue would be incapable of making a judgment on is: who would you rather live under, JFK or Pol Pot? I guess that's still hypothetical because in the past -- make it Hans-Adam II or Mugabe. I mean, pretty simple call, but the Ideologue, lost and blind, would refuse to and be unable to make it. I gave the tax-rate example already, hardly hypothetical. Here's another ideologue circuit-jammer: who was a better President, Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama? Or, how about this fun one: who would be a better President: Donald J. Trump or Hillary Clinton?

Aack! Does not com-pute! Sys-tem melt-down! Systemmeltdown!

Neither! Neither! Neither!

LOL. They're all hypotheticals, and have nothing to do with reality. Let's get a little more real: Which tastes better? A can of FDR beans or a can of Stalin beans?

[Swordsmyth]

LOL. They're all hypotheticals, and have nothing to do with reality.
No they have to do with reality, who/what are you going to work with or expend effort opposing? Under what circumstances?


Which tastes better? A can of FDR beans or a can of Stalin beans?

FDR beans.

What tastes better muddy water or sewer water?

[otherone]

No they have to do with reality, who/what are you going to work with or expend effort opposing? Under what circumstances?

Really? You think you got say? NOW who's the ideologue?




FDR beans.



Peel the label off the can and try again.

[Swordsmyth]

Really? You think you got say? NOW who's the ideologue?
We have more say than many think, otherwise the US would be as bad off as the rest of the world.






Peel the label off the can and try again.

How many people did FDR kill? How many did Stalin kill?

[otherone]

how many people did FDR kill? How many did Stalin kill?

That changes the taste of the beans?

Now see Mr. Hubener? THAT'S an ideologue.

[Swordsmyth]

That changes the taste of the beans?


It sure does, I would rather have less people killed, all the way down to 0 if it could be achieved, but you just want to take the intellectually lazy route and claim that there are no better or worse options and we have no power or influence so let's just sit on our porch and curse the world and throw rocks at everybody, but throw more rocks at whoever is ahead in the game of power even if their opposition is worse and hurting them without a better alternative will cause more suffering in the world.

[helmuth_hubener]

LOL. They're all hypotheticals, and have nothing to do with reality.

There exist jurisdictions where the tax rate is close to 23%, and ones where it is more like 10%. Right? Or is this my imagination? Within these united States, and even within your own state between various counties and towns, you will find a variety of different tax rates. A rational person could say "this county's sales tax rate is better than that one, because this one charges 5% sales tax and this one charges 6%." A poor, blind ideologue can, alas!, not say this. So sad. They have to flail about and say "they're both totally evil and unacceptable because they're part of the Capitalist Bourgeoisie Conspiracy, or the Reptilian-Robotic Complex, or the Failure to Implement Pure Anarcho-Capitalism Outrage. Insert your own ideology, of course.

Zimbabwe is an actual country, as is Lichtenstein. I could move to either one, with some effort. Maybe I have already! Who knows!

Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama were both inaugurated as actual Presidents of the United States. Assessing their quality would surely be useful to people like us who seek to take control of the state and reduce its power, or even just to anyone interested in leading or influencing their society in any way. Unless it was their Holographic Avatars, really inhabited by Jesuit lizards. Is that it? That is what you believe, I guess? I forgot to account for that possibility; my mistake.

See, keeping up with the magical worlds and menageries of people infected by the mind-worm we call Ideology can be quite a chore!


Let's get a little more real: Which tastes better? A can of FDR beans or a can of Stalin beans? Is it also part of your ideology that the political leadership of a country exerts some sort of magical influence on beans? This is one I am not familiar with. Is there a name for your ideology so I can brush up on it?

[helmuth_hubener]

THAT'S an ideologue.

For sure, we've all been infected by this horrible and evil brainworm to some degree! That's why it's important to call it out. Once you can see it, including in yourself -- most importantly, of course, in yourself! -- then you can start to coolly analyze its malicious workings.

[helmuth_hubener]

Anyway, I want to see where you're going with this (hopefully someplace awesome!) so here's a simple, straightforward answer:


Let's get a little more real: Which tastes better? A can of FDR beans or a can of Stalin beans?

First off, taste doesn't really matter in the long run, or even the short run. Only in the super-short, pleasure-obsessed run. So let's make it which one *is* better? And let's assume you meant "a can of beans produced in America under FDR's presidency" and "a can of beans produced in the Soviet Republics under the Stalin Secretaracy." Since I don't know what else you'd mean.

Most likely, the can of beans produced in America will be better. Both are quite old, long past their expiration date, but the American beans canned during that time period would have been less likely to be initially poisonous or defective somehow, statistically-speaking, based on the relative prosperity and food safety levels of the nations.

So I'd sooner eat the American beans, all else equal.

Of course, all is not equal, and were I in reality presented with both of these cans of beans -- we're keepin' it real, right? -- I would have at my disposal other useful factors which I'd take into account more heavily than their provenance. I would, for example, smell them.

[otherone]

Is it also part of your ideology that the political leadership of a country exerts some sort of magical influence on beans? This is one I am not familiar with. Is there a name for your ideology so I can brush up on it?

Not mine. Ask this guy:


It sure does



For sure, we've all been infected by this horrible and evil brainworm to some degree! That's why it's important to call it out. Once you can see it, including in yourself -- most importantly, of course, in yourself! -- then you can start to coolly analyze its malicious workings.

Of course. But while all of us debate ideologies, those in power operate under the premise of Realpolitik. Where they succeed is knowing how to manipulate those who are guided by principle. Are examples required?






First off, taste doesn't really matter in the long run, or even the short run. Only in the super-short, pleasure-obsessed run. So let's make it which one *is* better? And let's assume you meant "a can of beans produced in America under FDR's presidency" and "a can of beans produced in the Soviet Republics under the Stalin Secretaracy." Since I don't know what else you'd mean.

FDR vs Stalin was pointed. All cans of beans suck, as a general rule. When you are starving, or your children are starving, it doesn't matter who's label is on the damn can. "Reality" is how, YOU, are affected by who wields power. Not how your ideology is affected, or what internet debates you have, or who is stronger, Mighty Mouse or Superman. In the "consumerism" thread, Rev claims the Russian Revolution wouldn't have happened if the Czar threw chickens at the peasants. He's absolutely right. The problem is the Czar had no chickens to throw.

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-a-man-will-fight-harder-for-his-interests-than-for-his-rights-napoleon-bonaparte-20548.jpg

[Ender]

I am all about ironies! ;) :D


It doesn't really matter that it was hypothetical. Another good example of a choice that an ideologue would be incapable of making a judgment on is: who would you rather live under, JFK or Pol Pot? I guess that's still hypothetical because in the past -- make it Hans-Adam II or Mugabe. I mean, pretty simple call, but the Ideologue, lost and blind, would refuse to and be unable to make it. I gave the tax-rate example already, hardly hypothetical. Here's another ideologue circuit-jammer: who was a better President, Ronald Reagan or Barack Obama? Or, how about this fun one: who would be a better President: Donald J. Trump or Hillary Clinton?

Aack! Does not com-pute! Sys-tem melt-down! Systemmeltdown!

Neither! Neither! Neither!

You DO know that Ron Paul said "Neither!" on Trump and Hillary- right?

So, you are in fact calling him an ideologue incapable of making a judgment.

[helmuth_hubener]

You DO know that Ron Paul said "Neither!" on Trump and Hillary- right?

So, you are in fact calling him an ideologue incapable of making a judgment. I don't know, am I? You tell me!

Care to have an original thought of your own, or plan to just pathetically try to assume the persona of Ron Paul the rest of your life? What do you do if, despite your shortened life expectancy from obesity you still manage to somehow barely outlive the fit, slim, disciplined Ron Paul? Then how will you know what to think? Who will you use as a cover to assure yourself your ideas are right and righteous?

[helmuth_hubener]

But while all of us debate ideologies, those in power operate under the premise of Realpolitik. Where they succeed is knowing how to manipulate those who are guided by principle. Are examples required? Great post, OtherOne!

We are making the exact same point, but with different memes.

Have you ever read The Righteous Mind, OtherOne? One of the things it mentions is that actually voting and supporting patterns have more to do with the interest of your *group* than just you individually, at least for most people. So it's not just 'what's in it for me' but 'for my group'.

[Ender]

I don't know, am I? You tell me!

Care to have an original thought of your own, or plan to just pathetically try to assume the persona of Ron Paul the rest of your life? What do you do if, despite your shortened life expectancy from obesity you still manage to somehow barely outlive the fit, slim, disciplined Ron Paul? Then how will you know what to think? Who will you use as a cover to assure yourself your ideas are right and righteous?

Right, oh basher-of-others. :rolleyes: Try talking w/o insults and trying to look better than everyone else, just once- I'm sure you can do it.

And, I said from the beginning of the whole Trump/Hitlery nonsense, that the choice was either cow dung or horse dung, so I was choosing....WAIT FOR IT.....NEITHER! That was long before RP made his stance. Was just reminding you that you were bashing the guy who this forum is named after.

Reading is your friend- try it.

[otherone]

Great post, OtherOne!

We are making the exact same point, but with different memes.
Pardon my obtuseness, but what point is that?


Have you ever read The Righteous Mind, OtherOne? One of the things it mentions is that actually voting and supporting patterns have more to do with the interest of your *group* than just you individually, at least for most people. So it's not just 'what's in it for me' but 'for my group'.

Haven't read it. Nothing I've written has anything to do with voting. If the state actually protected individual Rights, it wouldn't matter who you voted for. As it stands, people vote for the guy who promises to throw the most chickens at them, individually, or collectively.

[otherone]

I don't know, am I? You tell me!

Care to have an original thought of your own, or plan to just pathetically try to assume the persona of Ron Paul the rest of your life? What do you do if, despite your shortened life expectancy from obesity you still manage to somehow barely outlive the fit, slim, disciplined Ron Paul? Then how will you know what to think? Who will you use as a cover to assure yourself your ideas are right and righteous?

Goodness. That was pointlessly snippy.
It is my hope that RP showed people the value of principle over politics. Frankly; what's his point if we simply choose the lesser of two evils? Couldn't we have done that without him?

[Swordsmyth]

Not mine. Ask this guy:






Of course. But while all of us debate ideologies, those in power operate under the premise of Realpolitik. Where they succeed is knowing how to manipulate those who are guided by principle. Are examples required?






FDR vs Stalin was pointed. All cans of beans suck, as a general rule. When you are starving, or your children are starving, it doesn't matter who's label is on the damn can. "Reality" is how, YOU, are affected by who wields power. Not how your ideology is affected, or what internet debates you have, or who is stronger, Mighty Mouse or Superman. In the "consumerism" thread, Rev claims the Russian Revolution wouldn't have happened if the Czar threw chickens at the peasants. He's absolutely right. The problem is the Czar had no chickens to throw.

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-a-man-will-fight-harder-for-his-interests-than-for-his-rights-napoleon-bonaparte-20548.jpg

If you meant an actual "can of beans" then no there is no difference, I thought you were speaking in metaphor, it is also completely irrelevant what actual beans taste like under a given regime.

The fact that you actually asked that question in seriousness and not in metaphor proves you are a fool or a scoundrel.

[euphemia]

Some of you people crack me up the way you act like this is an idealogical thing. As if you had a consistent ideology.

[Swordsmyth]

You DO know that Ron Paul said "Neither!" on Trump and Hillary- right?

So, you are in fact calling him an ideologue incapable of making a judgment.

There are times for ideological purity and times for practicality, there was no reason to believe Trump would perform as well as he has due to his past history, I did not vote for him, but I might in 2020 if there is no better choice.

Meanwhile you display a marked sympathy for Mandela and Kucinich and an absolute intolerance for others like Molyneux who I dislike but is demonstrably less of a threat to liberty than the other two, THAT is what is being discussed and what you refuse to make a judgement on when directly confronted about it.

[Swordsmyth]

Frankly; what's his point if we simply choose the lesser of two evils? Couldn't we have done that without him?

It depends on the choice, is there a better option? Do we get to work with more than one person/faction?

If we can reduce evil or not reduce evil I will choose to reduce evil and then work on reducing it further.

[Ender]

There are times for ideological purity and times for practicality, there was no reason to believe Trump would perform as well as he has due to his past history, I did not vote for him, but I might in 2020 if there is no better choice.

Meanwhile you display a marked sympathy for Mandela and Kucinich and an absolute intolerance for others like Molyneux who I dislike but is demonstrably less of a threat to liberty than the other two, THAT is what is being discussed and what you refuse to make a judgement on when directly confronted about it.

Because I correct false history about people or show where someone worked well with Ron Paul, does NOT mean I am displaying a marked sympathy- it means that I have little patience with made-up history or lies told that are just to support one's prejudices.

[helmuth_hubener]

Pardon my obtuseness, but what point is that? We're both in the general realm of, as you so excellently put it, "while all of us debate ideologies, those in power operate under the premise of Realpolitik. Where they succeed is knowing how to manipulate those who are guided by principle." I don't know that either of us have a specific point, but we're both talking about the impotence and possible pointlessness of obsessing about ideology in a dead-end manner, and also now, thanks to you, you have brought in the flip side of the coin: the pointfulness and demonstrated potency of dealing with people as they actually behave and think and with reality as it actually is. Also known as: Realpolitick.

Also known as: Winning.

Learning how to win is important. That means thinking realistically and prudently. Some have suggested making allies from, for example, worshippers of dead African communists, and Negro Felon millionaires showing disrespect to the symbols of their host country. Hopefully you can see when I put it so starkly: not the most brilliant tactical plan, is it! Not exactly likely to work. And if it did work, even worse for us! Some allies are mutually exclusive. In this case, the genuflecting Negro Felons have an incompatibility issue with, umm, 65 to 80% of the USA's population, including virtually 100% of the people who have any real alignment with our goals and Amy likelihood of actual productive alliance.

Libertarianism is a movement of the right. The left hates us. Even the left-anarchists hate us. There is an unbridgeable emotional, temperamental, and biological divide between us and the left. There is no such chasm between us and the right. We are *part* of the right. It would be very valuable to us to finally realize that.

[helmuth_hubener]

Haven't read it. Nothing I've written has anything to do with voting. If the state actually protected individual Rights, it wouldn't matter who you voted for. As it stands, people vote for the guy who promises to throw the most chickens at them, individually, or collectively. No, but that's why I said 'or supporting'. I should have left out the part about voting, as your bug's immune system zeroed in so thoroughly on that word.

It's just supporting. E.g. failing to launch a revolution, because chickens. The thing I was adding to your true thought was that actually most normal people would be supportive even if they themselves didn't get a chicken, as long as the group(s) with which they identified -- family, religion, ethnic group -- got chickens.

[Gumba of Liberty]

We're both in the general realm of, as you so excellently put it, "while all of us debate ideologies, those in power operate under the premise of Realpolitik. Where they succeed is knowing how to manipulate those who are guided by principle." I don't know that either of us have a specific point, but we're both talking about the impotence and possible pointlessness of obsessing about ideology in a dead-end manner, and also now, thanks to you, you have brought in the flip side of the coin: the pointfulness and demonstrated potency of dealing with people as they actually behave and think and with reality as it actually is. Also known as: Realpolitick.

Also known as: Winning.

Learning how to win is important. That means thinking realistically and prudently. Some have suggested making allies from, for example, worshippers of dead African communists, and Negro Felon millionaires showing disrespect to the symbols of their host country. Hopefully you can see when I put it so starkly: not the most brilliant tactical plan, is it! Not exactly likely to work. And if it did work, even worse for us! Some allies are mutually exclusive. In this case, the genuflecting Negro Felons have an incompatibility issue with, umm, 65 to 80% of the USA's population, including virtually 100% of the people who have any real alignment with our goals and Amy likelihood of actual productive alliance.

Libertarianism is a movement of the right. The left hates us. Even the left-anarchists hate us. There is an unbridgeable emotional, temperamental, and biological divide between us and the left. There is no such chasm between us and the right. We are *part* of the right. It would be very valuable to us to finally realize that.

Left and Right are useful terms when using a GPS. When talking politics they are nothing more than sophomoric mind control. Divide and conquer tactics, most likely a creation of CIA/M16/Mossad. When you use them you’ve already lost.

[helmuth_hubener]

Left and Right are useful terms when using a GPS. When talking politics they are nothing more than sophomoric mind control. Divide and conquer tactics, most likely a creation of CIA/M16/Mossad. When you use them you’ve already lost.
Umm, did the CIA cause the French Revolution?

Or was it Mossad? Or M16?

I can absolutely prove to you these are highly significant heuristic terms. They are, objectively, scientifically useful. You yourself can probably predict with a surprising degree of accuracy someone's political opinions based on very, very tiny amounts of completely unrelated information. Or is it so unrelated? It can't be, since it's so predictive.

Male, drives a Volvo, does yoga, has a housecat. What does he think about abortion?

Male, lifts weights, commercial pilot, eats steak and potatoes three times a week. How does he feel about gun control?

[Gumba of Liberty]

Umm, did the CIA cause the French Revolution?

Or was it Mossad? Or M16?

I can absolutely prove to you these are highly significant heuristic terms. They are, objectively, scientifically useful. You yourself can probably predict with a surprising degree of accuracy someone's political opinions based on very, very tiny amounts of completely unrelated information. Or is it so unrelated? It can't be, since it's so predictive.

Male, drives a Volvo, does yoga, has a housecat. What does he think about abortion?

Male, lifts weights, commercial pilot, eats steak and potatoes three times a week. How does he feel about gun control?

Answer these:
The Bill of Rights: Left or Right?
The Antifederalists: Left or Right?
The British Empire: Left or Right?
Monarchs, Industrialists & Bankers inventing limited-liability corporations to shield their personal wealth from lawsuits and hide their identites from the public: Left or Right?
European Bankers buying politicians, creating central banks, printing paper money, fraudulently buying the worlds natural resources and capital, and robbing nations and individuals of their Natural Right to Independence: Left or Right?

[otherone]

Answer these:
The Bill of Rights: Left or Right?
The Antifederalists: Left or Right?
The British Empire: Left or Right?
Monarchs, Industrialists & Bankers inventing limited-liability corporations to shield their personal wealth from lawsuits and hide their identites from the public: Left or Right?
European Bankers buying politicians, creating central banks, printing paper money, fraudulently buying the worlds natural resources and capital, and robbing nations and individuals of their Natural Right to Independence: Left or Right?

Depends. Do they do yoga or lift weights?

[Ender]

Depends. Do they do yoga or lift weights?

What if they do both? :eek:

[otherone]

What if they do both? :eek:

They get to use either bathroom?

[Gumba of Liberty]

Depends. Do they do yoga or lift weights?

FTW

[helmuth_hubener]

Answer these:
The Bill of Rights: Left or Right?
The Antifederalists: Left or Right?
The British Empire: Left or Right?
Monarchs, Industrialists & Bankers inventing limited-liability corporations to shield their personal wealth from lawsuits and hide their identites from the public: Left or Right?
European Bankers buying politicians, creating central banks, printing paper money, fraudulently buying the worlds natural resources and capital, and robbing nations and individuals of their Natural Right to Independence: Left or Right?

All of the above: Extreme, Ultra-Right, in roughly descending order of Right-ness, with the exception of the last one which becomes left enough we could probably still consider it left. This is in relation to Current Year. See, these are relative terms, of course. Left of what? Right compared to what? Because Cthulu swims left, we find ourselves having gotten way, way, super left of anything normal in the past in this Current Year. So, any document or occurrence or person that existed/happened/lived more than 100 years ago is automatically guaranteed to be ultra-hardcore-right-wing nutcase. If you transported literally any adult European -- any! -- alive more than 100 years ago to the present, he would be a uber-reactionary, traditionalist hard-rightist.

[Madison320]

There are times for ideological purity and times for practicality, there was no reason to believe Trump would perform as well as he has due to his past history, I did not vote for him, but I might in 2020 if there is no better choice.

Meanwhile you display a marked sympathy for Mandela and Kucinich and an absolute intolerance for others like Molyneux who I dislike but is demonstrably less of a threat to liberty than the other two, THAT is what is being discussed and what you refuse to make a judgement on when directly confronted about it.

That sums it up pretty well. I'd add one thing. Ender STARTED this whole thing by criticizing people for NOT supporting the NFL protestors. That just takes it to another level of annoyance for me. Not only is he wrong, he's in your face about it.

[Madison320]

You DO know that Ron Paul said "Neither!" on Trump and Hillary- right?

So, you are in fact calling him an ideologue incapable of making a judgment.

Now that we know Trump a little better, Trump and Hillary are pretty close on the liberty scale. I'd give Trump a 5 and Hillary a 3. So "neither" is an understandable response. But Mandela/Kucinich are not even close to Molyneux. Mandela and Kucinich are at the bottom of the scale, they don't even believe in individual rights, while Molyneux is considered to be a libertarian, most of his positions are similar to Ron Paul's.

[Ender]

That sums it up pretty well. I'd add one thing. Ender STARTED this whole thing by criticizing people for NOT supporting the NFL protestors. That just takes it to another level of annoyance for me. Not only is he wrong, he's in your face about it.

Wrong.

I initially said:


MY POV:

This is all bull$#@!.

No one should have to pray to the state; the National Anthem should never have been made the opening of ANY game or public gathering- it is nothing but state worship.


What’s Worth Standing For?

By Butler Shaffer

October 20, 2017

In America you can say anything you want, as long as it doesn’t have any effect.

– Paul Goodman

The vacuity of serious thought in America is revealed in so many instances that it is difficult to put together a top-ten list of candidates. Among the fatuous contenders is that involving the question of whether NFL players should stand for the playing of the national anthem. Not since the 1988 presidential campaign, when George W. Bush focused on the sanctity of the Pledge of Allegiance to satisfy members of the boobeoisie to elect him president, has so much mental energy been spent on such a hollow topic.

Patriotic rituals serve one purpose: to reinforce the conditioning begun in childhood with flag salutes and daily Pledges of Allegiance, reminding the citizens of a state that their lives are subservient to the collective interests of the established order. Where hundreds or thousands of individuals gather for an event of common interest – such as sporting events – the dynamics of mass psychology can be mobilized to remind those in attendance of the importance of commitments to matters that transcend the interests of their home team. Out come the flags accompanied by color-guards; a military band; and a singer to lead the crowd in the statist hymn: The Star-Spangled Banner.

The refusal of athletes or fans to stand for this observance of state dominance, is a public challenge to the homogenization of obedience to constituted authority; an admission that some – if only a handful – may be stepping to A Libertarian Critique... Butler Shaffer Buy New $5.50 (as of 11:24 EDT - Details) the beat of a different drummer than the one in the Marine Corps band. The fear that not everyone is committed to group-thinking is what bothered Ron Paul’s critics when he was in Congress. His dissent cast in a 434-1 vote on a bill was certainly no threat to its enactment, but that it raised the specter of dissent challenged the political mantra e pluribus unum. The “One” that all collectivists insist upon cannot be maintained if some are able to get away with not playing the game.

Statists have long exploited dead soldiers in the peddling of guilt on behalf of their ambitions for power. We are told we “should honor the sacrifice of those who fought and died to protect our freedom.” As often as I have heard this plea, I have yet to have anyone inform me of any liberty I enjoy by virtue of soldiers going to foreign countries, at risk to their own lives, to kill people! Of what is one “free” when fighting or killing others? Soldiers fight because they are ordered to do so, and the selection of the “enemy” is made by persons who have absolutely no interest in benefiting or protecting me.

In a televised press conference, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell tried his best to resolve the contradictions that abound in all of politics. While stating that the NFL was “trying to stay out of politics” in this dispute, he failed to recognize that the national anthem is about nothing but politics. He acknowledged that the anthem is “an important part of our game.” How can this be? Does the home-team get six points added to their score if they out-sing the visiting fans? If this music is such an “important” part of the game, have you ever seen people at a football or baseball game leave the stadium once the anthem has been performed?

If the national anthem is of such importance, why do we not perform it in everything we do? Is breakfast, or the start of our workday, or going to a grocery store, or undergoing root-canal work at the dentist’s, to be preceded by this tune? Do we refrain from extending such collective foolishness into our daily lives because the numbers of persons are not sufficient to convert individuals into fungible components of a mob?

There is one very effective way for the NFL and other sectors of the entertainment world to end the squabbling over whether fans and players should stand for this song. As it has absolutely no bearing on the content or performance of the games people come to watch, stop playing it altogether. No more than people should be expected to sing “fight on for USC” when attending an opera, should they be expected to sing hymns to the state.

Perhaps a little history will put the National Anthem in perspective. It is known by every school-child that Francis Scott Key was the author of the poem upon which the anthem is based. What is not so well-known is that Key was a lawyer who not only owned slaves, but defended the practice. Like Abraham Lincoln, Key represented slaveowners, and regarded slaves as “an inferior race of people.” He strongly opposed the abolition movement. As district attorney for Washington, D.C., he prosecuted abolitionists and enjoined the publication and distribution of abolitionist literature. The music to which Key’s poem was set, was taken from the song “Anacreon in Heaven,” an 18th century tune sung in a London gentlemen’s club. The song celebrated drinking and sex.

Perhaps the NFL players are onto something!
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/10/...-standing-for/

Maybe Mr. MAGA President should just keep his ugly mouth shut?

I quoted the respectable Butler Shaffer- and I was agreeing with his criticizing state-worship & the condemnation of some people over peaceful protests.

Violent protests are a whole different thing but a peaceful protest should be respected, even if you do not agree with the subject.

[helmuth_hubener]

Now that we know Trump a little better, Trump and Hillary are pretty close on the liberty scale. I'd give Trump a 5 and Hillary a 3.

Consider: How much does it matter how high on the "liberty scale" a given President is? What effect does that have?

What about long term?

I mostly like to think long term. That's the most interesting! And challenging. And, and here's the kicker, important!

So is it possible that what's more important than how liberty-oriented they are in the present, is what long-term effect their policies will have for the prospects of liberty? For the next 100 years? I think it is. I think that is important. Something to think about.

[Ender]

Now that we know Trump a little better, Trump and Hillary are pretty close on the liberty scale. I'd give Trump a 5 and Hillary a 3. So "neither" is an understandable response. But Mandela/Kucinich are not even close to Molyneux. Mandela and Kucinich are at the bottom of the scale, they don't even believe in individual rights, while Molyneux is considered to be a libertarian, most of his positions are similar to Ron Paul's.


Ron Paul and the Self-Hating u2018Libertarians'
by Walter Block
Recently by Walter Block: Ron Paul and Liberty
Karen Kwiatkowski wrote a magnificent blog exposing Reason magazine as critics, not supporters, of libertarianism. I would now like to add to her so far list of one "libertarian" who trashes Ron Paul. My nomination to be second on this list is Stefan Molyneux. Full disclosure: his speech attacking Dr. Paul goes on for almost an hour, and I didn't have the sitzfleisch (patience) to listen to all of it. But, in the first 10 minutes or so he criticizes Congressman Paul for, yes, wait for it, favoring the Constitution! Molyneux also correctly allows that if President Paul takes office, we "slaves" will have far fewer beatings, but claims that this is an insufficient reason for supporting him. I did indeed, until recently listening to this rant, have some respect for Molyneux (unlike for Reason magazine, which has long ago turned against libertarianism). He has authored some very persuasive material on anarcho-capitalism. But, evidently, Molyneux is one of those free market anarchists who does not really "hate the state" (see Murray Rothbard on this) certainly not enough to support one of the greatest enemies of statism the world has ever known.


Here is Molneux on the "disaster Ron Paul".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McNo62gpw6M&playnext=1&list=PLADDEC1E9BDF4ECE0

[helmuth_hubener]

What if they do both? :eek:
Then they are probably left-leaning. The yoga heuristic wins out, by far. Obviously. No traditional, conservative man anywhere does yoga.

Now what if he eats granola AND hunts grizzly bears?

You guys are joking around, which is great, but surely you do know that what I'm saying is true. When you meet someone in person, and talk to him, get to know a few things about him, you will be able to almost always have a very good prediction of where he stands politically. It's just a thing we humans can do.

Left and right are real. The CIA was not there in the French Revolution. Just because libertarians don't always fit on either left or right doesn't mean almost everyone else in the world doesn't. We have to live with and accept facts.

[Madison320]

Here is Molneux on the "disaster Ron Paul".


Sorry. I can't handle Molyneux for 46 minutes. Lots of libertarians disagree with each other. What's your point? He's still 1000 times better than Mandela or Kucinich. Don't you agree?

Neg rep for serial avoidance of questions.

Now that I think about it, I think Molyneux leans towards anarchy and I'm guessing his opposition to Ron Paul is that Ron Paul believes in a minimal state (correct me if I'm wrong - like I said I can't listen to Molyneux for nearly that long). Which means that you and Molyneux are probably extremely close in political philosophy.