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Anti Federalist
09-27-2017, 02:30 PM
http://nypost.com/2017/09/27/trump-tax-plan-eliminates-big-perk-for-high-tax-states/

Despite fierce opposition from high-tax states when the idea was first floated, the Trump administration is pushing ahead with the repeal, which would remove state and local income and property taxes as deductions on federal returns.

The perk — first enacted with the income tax in 1913 — is most heavily used in coastal, bluer states that include New York, California, New Jersey and Connecticut.

Repealing it would increase federal revenue by $1.3 trillion over the decade, according to the Tax Policy Center.

But it would also slam high-income New Yorkers.

Manhattan leads the way nationally in taking the deduction, with residents writing off an average of $24,898 on their federal returns.

Deductions would remain for mortgage interest and charitable contributions.

Also, the standard deduction would nearly double to $12,000 for individuals and $24,000 for married couples.

Anti Federalist
09-27-2017, 02:32 PM
While I'm sure this is not the worthless GOP's intent, I say good.

Let Boobus get a gutful of what this government really costs.

euphemia
09-27-2017, 03:28 PM
I guess the liberal, high-tax states will feel the pinch. Watch for referendums on lower taxes.

phill4paul
09-27-2017, 03:33 PM
I haven't let the Fed. steal from me for so long now I can't remember when I last filed. I don't give a fuck what they do. Apathy has returned full force.

Sonny Tufts
09-27-2017, 03:43 PM
It matters little what is in Trump's plan, as there will be fierce negotiations within the House, within the Senate, and likely within the Conference Committee. It can truly be said that the two things that you really don't want to see how they are made are sausage and tax legislation.

Zippyjuan
09-27-2017, 04:34 PM
http://nypost.com/2017/09/27/trump-tax-plan-eliminates-big-perk-for-high-tax-states/

Despite fierce opposition from high-tax states when the idea was first floated, the Trump administration is pushing ahead with the repeal, which would remove state and local income and property taxes as deductions on federal returns.

The perk — first enacted with the income tax in 1913 — is most heavily used in coastal, bluer states that include New York, California, New Jersey and Connecticut.

Repealing it would increase federal revenue by $1.3 trillion over the decade, according to the Tax Policy Center.

But it would also slam high-income New Yorkers.

Manhattan leads the way nationally in taking the deduction, with residents writing off an average of $24,898 on their federal returns.

Deductions would remain for mortgage interest and charitable contributions.

Also, the standard deduction would nearly double to $12,000 for individuals and $24,000 for married couples.

The standard deduction will be increased under his plan, but individual exemptions will be taken away which will offset much of that. A single person could save $50 to $100 a year (gaining $6,000 in the standard deduction but losing $4500 for the personal exemption- reducing his taxable income by $1500) but a family of four could end up paying $1000 to $1500 a year more. It will also be further eroded by raising the rate applied to the lowest tax bracket from 10% to 12%.

Saying it is for the middle class is a way to sell it to the public. Details say little actually goes to the middle class.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wvBzy2r0cI

Zippyjuan
09-27-2017, 04:47 PM
As Rand Paul notes, revenue neutral tax cuts are not really tax cuts- they are tax "shifts". To be revenue neutral, you have to raise taxes on somebody to pay for lowering the taxes on somebody else. If they are reducing corporate taxes and want to be revenue neutral, individual taxes must be raised. They also claim that cuts will be offset by economic growth- and they assume that the economy will grow at the rate of six percent a year- a figure nearly all economists say is impossible. 1984 is the only time in at least 50 years we have seen that occur.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EbYNNyOr1o

donnay
09-27-2017, 04:57 PM
WHITE HOUSE 2 hours ago
Trump sells tax plan: ‘There’s never been tax cuts like we’re talking about’


President Trump promised drastic tax cuts Wednesday as he touted Republicans' newly unveiled tax reform plan, arguing the push to re-write the tax code would fuel “America’s economic comeback.”

“These tax cuts are significant,” the president said during a speech at the Farm Bureau Building in Indianapolis. “There’s never been tax cuts like we’re talking about.”

Republicans earlier Wednesday released the framework of their plan that was hammered out by House and Senate lawmakers in coordination with the Trump administration. Trump used his speech in Indiana, in part, to begin applying public pressure on lawmakers -- especially Democrats -- to get on board.

“Call your congressman. Call your senators,” Trump said. “Let them know you’re watching, let them know you’re waiting. Tell them that today is the day for decision. That now is the time to heal this self-inflicted economic wound.”

He added, “If you demand it, the politicians will listen.”

As part of his effort to woo the other side, Trump invited Indiana Democratic Sen. Joe Donnelly to fly with him on Air Force One. But the president also warned with a smile during the speech that if Donnelly doesn’t support the plan, “We will come here, we will campaign against him like you wouldn't believe."

The plan would simplify the tax system, cut rates and nearly double the standard deduction used by most Americans. Trump pitched it as the biggest tax cut in U.S. history.

“Over the next few months, the House and Senate will build on this framework and produce legislation that will deliver more jobs, higher pay and lower taxes for middle-class families, for the working man and woman, and for businesses of all sizes,” the president said.

Getting any substantial Democratic support could be a heavy lift. Already, party leaders were panning the proposal, with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., saying in a statement: "Republicans’ tax framework is not tax reform, it is a framework that gives away the store to the wealthiest, while sticking the middle class with the bill."

The stakes are high, after Republicans a day earlier scrapped their latest effort to repeal and replace ObamaCare.

During his speech, the president discussed the health care effort, claiming Republicans have the votes on the Graham-Cassidy health care legislation. But, in an apparent reference to Mississippi Republican Sen. Thad Cochran, Trump said one “yes vote” is home sick and unavailable to vote.

“We have a wonderful senator, a great, great senator, who is a yes vote,” Trump said. “But he’s home recovering from a pretty tough situation.”

Citing the Senate process called “budget reconciliation,” which gives Republicans until Friday to pass health care legislation without a filibuster threat, the president said they will wait a few months before being able to vote on it.

Now, the legislative focus shifts to tax reform, which Trump has been eager to tackle since taking office.

“The current tax system is a colossal barrier standing in the way of America’s economic comeback, because it can be far greater than it’s ever been,” Trump said.
The plan, as outlined in the framework, nearly doubles the standard deduction to $12,000 for individuals and $24,000 for families. This basically increases the amount of personal income that is tax-free.

Congressional Republicans describe this as creating a larger “zero tax bracket.”

The plan also collapses the number of personal tax brackets from seven to three. By simplifying the system, most Americans would be able to file their taxes on a postcard, the plan says.

The individual tax rates would be 12 percent, 25 percent and 35 percent -- and the plan recommends a surcharge for the very wealthy. But it does not set the income levels at which the rates would apply, so it's unclear just how much of a tax change there might be for a typical family.

Deductions for mortgage interest and charitable giving would remain, but the plan seeks to end most other itemized deductions that can reduce how much affluent families pay.

The plan would seek to help families by calling for an increased child tax credit and opening it to families with higher incomes. The credit currently is $1,000 per child. Also proposed is a new tax credit of $500 to help pay for the care of the elderly and the sick who are claimed as dependents by the taxpayer.

The estate tax -- which is paid by those with multimillion-inheritances -- would be eliminated, a boon for wealthy individuals who inherit businesses, investments and real estate.

Corporations, meanwhile, would see their top tax rate cut from 35 percent to 20 percent.

New benefits would be given to firms in which the profits double as the owners' personal income. They would pay at a 25 percent rate, down from 39.6 percent.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/09/27/trump-sells-tax-plan-there-s-never-been-tax-cuts-like-re-talking-about.html

angelatc
09-27-2017, 05:00 PM
As Rand Paul notes, revenue neutral tax cuts are not really tax cuts- they are tax "shifts". To be revenue neutral, you have to raise taxes on somebody to pay for lowering the taxes on somebody else.

or cut spending

Zippyjuan
09-27-2017, 05:04 PM
or cut spending

"Revenue neutral" means you are still taking in the same revenues (tax dollars). Budget neutral means they can be offset by spending cuts which they won't do. Yeah, that would be good. But cutting spending involves making tough choices which Congress wants to avoid. Cutting taxes sounds great to voters. Much easier to sell.

helmuth_hubener
09-27-2017, 05:11 PM
This is how you win.

Hurt the other side. Take resources from them. Increase the well-being of your own side. Do everything you can to rob the bad side of wealth.

The high-tax states are places like? Hawaii. New York. California. Massachusetts. In short: every major concentration of crazed, deranged leftists third-worldists in the country. The bad guys.

So, hit them harder and meanwhile ease up on robbing the Midwest? Let the leftist bad guys fund the government and let the down-home fly-over folks off the hook?

Sounds good to me.

The whole plan is awesome, actually. Really good. It would be an improvement to the tax code on an almost inconceivable level! Better than Rand's plan, probably -- sorry, blasphemy, but it's true! Why do you think ZippyJuan hates it? What Zippyjuan hates cannot be all bad, guys. It is almost bound to be good. And indeed it is.

Zippyjuan
09-27-2017, 05:23 PM
This is how you win.

Hurt the other side. Take resources from them. Increase the well-being of your own side. Do everything you can to rob the bad side of wealth.

The high-tax states are places like? Hawaii. New York. California. Massachusetts. In short: every major concentration of crazed, deranged leftists third-worldists in the country. The bad guys.

So, hit them harder and meanwhile ease up on robbing the Midwest? Let the leftist bad guys fund the government and let the down-home fly-over folks off the hook?

Sounds good to me.

The whole plan is awesome, actually. Really good. It would be an improvement to the tax code on an almost inconceivable level! Better than Rand's plan, probably -- sorry, blasphemy, but it's true! Why do you think ZippyJuan hates it? What Zippyjuan hates cannot be all bad, guys. It is almost bound to be good. And indeed it is.

You seem to like the idea of paying taxes on the taxes you paid. Good for you. Actually it effects people in every state- not just "blue" ones. All the Red and purple ones too.

You are right- the Trump Tax Plan is about rewarding friends- and that isn't the middle class or you and me- despite claims he has made to the contrary. They take your deduction and give it to Goldman Sachs.

oyarde
09-27-2017, 05:43 PM
http://nypost.com/2017/09/27/trump-tax-plan-eliminates-big-perk-for-high-tax-states/

Despite fierce opposition from high-tax states when the idea was first floated, the Trump administration is pushing ahead with the repeal, which would remove state and local income and property taxes as deductions on federal returns.

The perk — first enacted with the income tax in 1913 — is most heavily used in coastal, bluer states that include New York, California, New Jersey and Connecticut.

Repealing it would increase federal revenue by $1.3 trillion over the decade, according to the Tax Policy Center.

But it would also slam high-income New Yorkers.

Manhattan leads the way nationally in taking the deduction, with residents writing off an average of $24,898 on their federal returns.

Deductions would remain for mortgage interest and charitable contributions.

Also, the standard deduction would nearly double to $12,000 for individuals and $24,000 for married couples.

Trump was in Indianapolis with our Dem senator ( who most likely will not be re elected ) today pitching this plan . I have not even read it but expect it to be like every other plan everyone has and raises taxes .

oyarde
09-27-2017, 05:48 PM
If Trump wants to do some constructive pre Nov shit get some cut spending bills passed in the house , make these senators vote on it. Then let the opponents use it against them if they vote no .

oyarde
09-27-2017, 05:52 PM
Revenue neutral is dirty commie speak for trying to raise my taxes and giving a deadbeat a pass .

angelatc
09-27-2017, 05:54 PM
You seem to like the idea of paying taxes on the taxes you paid. Good for you. Actually it effects people in every state- not just "blue" ones. All the Red and purple ones too.

You are right- the Trump Tax Plan is about rewarding friends- and that isn't the middle class or you and me- despite claims he has made to the contrary. They take your deduction and give it to Goldman Sachs.

Wow. This certainly has Zip all fired up.

phill4paul
09-27-2017, 06:12 PM
If Trump wants to do some constructive pre Nov shit get some cut spending bills passed in the house , make these senators vote on it. Then let the opponents use it against them if they vote no .

Don't hold your breath.

Zippyjuan
09-27-2017, 06:21 PM
Congress has to actually write any changes in taxes. Most of the deductions will probably not be removed due to pressure from special interest groups.

specsaregood
09-27-2017, 06:22 PM
Wow. This certainly has Zip all fired up.

Well he lives in a high tax state. Not being able to deduct his property and state income taxes off federal income is gonna hurt. I'm not too fucking happy about it either; but with the standard deduction being doubled it will pretty much come out as no difference for me, maybe a slight increase. It will definitely help in my decision to move out of the state.

angelatc
09-27-2017, 06:25 PM
Congress has to actually write any changes in taxes. If you're talking about that "Revenue bills must originate in the House" thing, Obamacare proved that isn't really enforced any more.

Zippyjuan
09-27-2017, 06:28 PM
If you're talking about that "Revenue bills must originate in the House" thing, Obamacare proved that isn't really enforced any more.

Obamacare used the same tactics the Republicans are trying to use now- reconciliation- a technical "modification" of an existing bill.

unknown
09-27-2017, 06:30 PM
I haven't let the Fed. steal from me for so long now I can't remember when I last filed. I don't give a fuck what they do. Apathy has returned full force.

Man I wish I had the fucking balls.

I'd complain so much less about this goddam government if I wasnt forced to pay into it.

phill4paul
09-27-2017, 06:30 PM
Well he lives in a high tax state. Not being able to deduct his property and state income taxes off federal income is gonna hurt. I'm not too fucking happy about it either; but with the standard deduction being doubled it will pretty much come out as no difference for me, maybe a slight increase. It will definitely help in my decision to move out of the state.

That's kinda how it all started. And here we are.

unknown
09-27-2017, 06:32 PM
The fuckers should be working towards eliminating the IRS.

Instead theyre raising taxes...

phill4paul
09-27-2017, 06:35 PM
Man I wish I had the fucking balls.

I'd complain so much less about this goddam government if I wasnt forced to pay into it.

It's not so much about having balls as it is knowing that this life is ephemeral. I really don't have much to fear.

helmuth_hubener
09-27-2017, 09:37 PM
You seem to like the idea of paying taxes on the taxes you paid. Good for you. And you seem to like the idea of giving it to Goldman Sachs.
Uh-huh, sure I do.

See, this is what happens when non-smart (brain-damaged) people try really hard to be persuasive.

It just comes off as desperate.

Sad.

Swordsmyth
09-27-2017, 10:00 PM
This is how you win.

Hurt the other side. Take resources from them. Increase the well-being of your own side. Do everything you can to rob the bad side of wealth.

The high-tax states are places like? Hawaii. New York. California. Massachusetts. In short: every major concentration of crazed, deranged leftists third-worldists in the country. The bad guys.

So, hit them harder and meanwhile ease up on robbing the Midwest? Let the leftist bad guys fund the government and let the down-home fly-over folks off the hook?

Sounds good to me.

The whole plan is awesome, actually. Really good. It would be an improvement to the tax code on an almost inconceivable level! Better than Rand's plan, probably -- sorry, blasphemy, but it's true! Why do you think ZippyJuan hates it? What Zippyjuan hates cannot be all bad, guys. It is almost bound to be good. And indeed it is.

Provoke CALExit etc. seems to be the plan.

:D:D:D

TheCount
09-27-2017, 10:46 PM
https://goo.gl/images/E7BkbW
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/051/601/579.png
https://goo.gl/images/E7BkbW
... As long as you tread on them ​more.

Danke
09-27-2017, 11:24 PM
https://goo.gl/images/E7BkbW
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/051/601/579.png
https://goo.gl/images/E7BkbW
... As long as you tread on them ​more.

if that's what it takes to wake communist like you up, so be it.

Swordsmyth
09-27-2017, 11:33 PM
https://goo.gl/images/E7BkbW
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/051/601/579.png
https://goo.gl/images/E7BkbW
... As long as you tread on them ​more.


They want higher taxes, they can have them.

And when they Secede and lose their Reps, Senators and Electors we can finally lower taxes on everyone else along with the spending to balance it.

EBounding
09-28-2017, 05:26 AM
This sounds good to me. Getting rid of the deductions might motivate my state legislature (Michigan) to actually dump the income tax. Should get rid of the mortgage deduction too.

specsaregood
09-28-2017, 06:24 AM
This sounds good to me. Getting rid of the deductions might motivate my state legislature (Michigan) to actually dump the income tax. Should get rid of the mortgage deduction too.

But isn't this proposal a bad thing if you like things being run at the state level? This would seem to encourage states to cut their taxes and instead rely on federal money/services.

EBounding
09-28-2017, 06:32 AM
But isn't this proposal a bad thing if you like things being run at the state level? This would seem to encourage states to cut their taxes and instead rely on federal money/services.

That's a good point. It probably would encourage US reps to just expand programs and bring more pork back home. I guess my hope is those fiscal principals at the state level will eventually spread to the federal level?

specsaregood
09-28-2017, 06:44 AM
That's a good point. It probably would encourage US reps to just expand programs and bring more pork back home. I guess my hope is those fiscal principals at the state level will eventually spread to the federal level?

That's a nice hope you got there. :)
But lets be real, they wont cut services, they'll just demand it come out of the federal level. This is the wrong solution, backwards even.

William Tell
09-28-2017, 07:05 AM
This is how you win.

Depends who you is. I think most of us would win more if they cut spending.

Origanalist
09-28-2017, 07:17 AM
As Rand Paul notes, revenue neutral tax cuts are not really tax cuts- they are tax "shifts". To be revenue neutral, you have to raise taxes on somebody to pay for lowering the taxes on somebody else. If they are reducing corporate taxes and want to be revenue neutral, individual taxes must be raised. They also claim that cuts will be offset by economic growth- and they assume that the economy will grow at the rate of six percent a year- a figure nearly all economists say is impossible. 1984 is the only time in at least 50 years we have seen that occur.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EbYNNyOr1o

And that was the recovery from 1982 which was fairly brutal but thankfully short lived.

angelatc
09-28-2017, 08:14 AM
Obamacare used the same tactics the Republicans are trying to use now- reconciliation- a technical "modification" of an existing bill.

Are you saying that they're trying to put a tax plan through via reconciliation, or are you saying that they're trying to use reconciliation to shove through a tax bill?

But it still looks to me that either way, I am right. Your team paved this damned road. Screw them for daring to whine about it now.

helmuth_hubener
09-28-2017, 08:46 AM
Depends who you is. We is the right. Libertarianism, Constitutionalism, and any philosophies or inclinations valuing property, liberty, and the rule of law are firmly and solidly and only part of the right. We are right-wing. I know we love to imagine we transcend all of that, floating up in the clouds, superior to everyone, neither left nor right, but rather perfect. Sorry, that's bologna. The love of liberty is a right-wing value. It took me a long time to realize this truth, due to Nolan Chart propaganda, but it's true. I'd be happy to discuss further. It's imperative that we accept this truth and act accordingly.


I think most of us would win more if they cut spending.

Obviously. We would win even more if they repealed the income tax. We would win even morely more if the FedGov shrunk down to a $10 billion dollar per year budget. We would win bigly if the NSA and the CIA and the FBI and all the alphabet soup were all given immediate pink slips (and probably assassinated simultaneously; you'd probably have to, unfortunately, just kill them all, at min. the leaders, to prevent them simply saying "umm, right, no thank you" and taking over the gov). We would win really bigly if the FedGov would start abiding by its charter, its Law: the Constitution.

So you can see, I too am all for listing wholly imaginary ways in which we could imaginarily win. Let's list some more! Got any favorites, William?

helmuth_hubener
09-28-2017, 09:09 AM
... As long as you tread on them ​more.

And this is what happens when a slightly cleverer man tries to be persuasive. It works much better. Unfortunately for you, Wonka, you have no pathos or ethos here; you've already burned all those bridges. All or most here, probably all, already have a pre-conceived feeling, formed over the course of years, that you do not want the same things they do. You do not share their values, indeed your goals are inimical to theirs. This feeling is deeply ingrained at this point. It cannot be changed. Sorry.

The only way you could be effectively persuasive at this point is to advocate for the opposite of what you actually want on a few (just a few -- it can't be obvious) occasional carefully-picked issues that come up. Then RPFers would say, "Wait, TheCount likes that? It must be bad." But this would get confusing, and probably be unsatisfying to you.

Anyway, thanks for the post. It was a good use of that meme. Been saving it? Kudos. Great connection. It gets booooring having such one-sided discussions, so it's nice to have some even moderately intelligent opposition. Spices things up. Of course, what I want is to tread on YOU. And your kind. Quite a bit different than asking you to tread on me, which is what you're already doing, and have been doing your entire sorry lives.

The left must die. Stomp. Stomp. Stomp.

Zippyjuan
09-28-2017, 11:36 AM
They want higher taxes, they can have them.

And when they Secede and lose their Reps, Senators and Electors we can finally lower taxes on everyone else along with the spending to balance it.

Congress doesn't really want to cut spending. Not Democrats, not Republicans. They say they want to- but they don't actually do it. Programs buy them votes which keep them in office. Cutting programs could cause them to lose their own jobs. Dems and Reps just like to spend the money on different things.

Zippyjuan
09-28-2017, 11:41 AM
Are you saying that they're trying to put a tax plan through via reconciliation, or are you saying that they're trying to use reconciliation to shove through a tax bill?

But it still looks to me that either way, I am right. Your team paved this damned road. Screw them for daring to whine about it now.

Actually this is a "trial balloon"- like healthcare, the deadline for getting a tax bill though under reconciliation expires this week. Since tax reform isn't going to get a vote this week, it will have to wait until the get a new budget passed. This is to try to get them to pass an actual spending bill so the can go after taxes later. Once that bill is passed and signed, then the reconciliation time will start over again. The catch is that via reconciliation, a modification cannot add to the debt authorized in the original spending bill. The current one would allow $1.5 trillion in new debt- the proposed tax cuts if all enacted would be over $2.5 trillion. They did healthcare first because they were counting on that reducing the deficit by about $400 billion over the next decade which would have allowed them to pass a bigger tax cut plan.

euphemia
09-28-2017, 11:44 AM
Congress doesn't really want to cut spending. Not Democrats, not Republicans. They say they want to- but they don't actually do it. Programs buy them votes which keep them in office. Cutting programs could cause them to lose their own jobs. Dems and Reps just like to spend the money on different things.

Are you kidding? Most Americans have no idea what *programs* they pay for. Congress could probably eliminate 1000 progams and nobody would feel any difference.

CaptUSA
09-28-2017, 11:46 AM
All you need to know:

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-deficits-mean-future-tax-increases-pure-and-simple-deficit-spending-should-be-viewed-as-a-tax-on-ron-paul-142918.jpg

http://i.quoteaddicts.com/media/q1/1075608.png

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Ron-Paul-Quote-Facebook-460x369.jpg

Monkey with the tax code all they want - SPENDING IS THE REAL TAX!!

angelatc
09-28-2017, 11:48 AM
Actually this is a "trial balloon"- like healthcare, the deadline for getting a tax bill though under reconciliation expires this week. Since tax reform isn't going to get a vote this week, it will have to wait until the get a new budget passed. This is to try to get them to pass an actual spending bill so the can go after taxes later. Once that bill is passed and signed, then the reconciliation time will start over again. The catch is that via reconciliation, a modification cannot add to the debt authorized in the original spending bill. The current one would allow $1.5 trillion in new debt- the proposed tax cuts if all enacted would be over $2.5 trillion. They did healthcare first because they were counting on that reducing the deficit by about $400 billion over the next decade which would have allowed them to pass a bigger tax cut plan.

Moving goalposts again. Of course this is a trial balloon. It's a 9 page .pdf, basically an outline of what he wants to see happen.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that it would disallow most all deductions. Medical costs being on the table. I'd rather see the mortgage interest deduction axed and allow medical expenses to be deducted.

Kelly Erb has a good synopsis here:https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2017/09/27/whats-in-and-whats-out-the-gop-tax-reform-proposal/#7f9a0d0d77c4

acptulsa
09-28-2017, 11:58 AM
I'd rather see the mortgage interest deduction axed...

LOL

What, bankers no longer own the politicians? When did they stop making their lease paym--er, I mean campaign contributions?

angelatc
09-28-2017, 12:19 PM
LOL

What, bankers no longer own the politicians? When did they stop making their lease paym--er, I mean campaign contributions?

IIRC the mortgage deduction stays. So the bankers are still ok. I'm sure they appreciate your concern. :D

Zippyjuan
09-28-2017, 12:31 PM
On one hand, deductions do distort taxation and make it more complicated. On the other hand, they do offer you a way to reduce the taxes you have to pay. It is interesting to see anti-taxation people opposed to ways to reduce their tax burden.

Zippyjuan
09-28-2017, 12:38 PM
Are you kidding? Most Americans have no idea what *programs* they pay for. Congress could probably eliminate 1000 progams and nobody would feel any difference.

Those thousands are tiny programs and would have little impact on the debt/ deficits. Pennies in relative savings. If you are serious about spending, you have to attack where the big bucks are- Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid (even Ron Paul was hesitant to touch those- saying he would "honor the commitment" to those who had qualified for any benefits- his cuts would be decades in the future- "allow young people the ability to "opt out" of the system") and Defense. Cut defense and lose Republican votes. Cut Social Security or Medicare/ Medicaid and lose liberal votes. Leave those out and you have about $500 billion you can cut out of a $4 trillion budget. About 12% if you cut all of it to zero.

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_pie%2C__2015_enacted.png

EBounding
09-28-2017, 01:14 PM
Those thousands are tiny programs and would have little impact on the debt/ deficits. Pennies in relative savings. If you are serious about spending, you have to attack where the big bucks are- Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid (even Ron Paul was hesitant to touch those- saying he would "honor the commitment" to those who had qualified for any benefits- his cuts would be decades in the future- "allow young people the ability to "opt out" of the system") and Defense. Cut defense and lose Republican votes. Cut Social Security or Medicare/ Medicaid and lose liberal votes. Leave those out and you have about $500 billion you can cut out of a $4 trillion budget. About 12% if you cut all of it to zero.


It's more like, cut Social Security or Medicare, lose both party votes.

Zippyjuan
09-28-2017, 01:17 PM
It's more like, cut Social Security or Medicare, lose both party votes.

Which is why any significant budget cuts will never happen.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
09-28-2017, 01:29 PM
Those thousands are tiny programs and would have little impact on the debt/ deficits.


I disagree. Small amounts of anything add up to big amounts. Either way, there is actually a lot of bad spending in those two largest categories of health-Medicare and SS-unemployment-labor.

Everybody needs to take a cut. And using the word "cut" is actually ironic because a cut is actually a gain in your pocket.

phill4paul
09-28-2017, 02:05 PM
All you need to know:

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-deficits-mean-future-tax-increases-pure-and-simple-deficit-spending-should-be-viewed-as-a-tax-on-ron-paul-142918.jpg

http://i.quoteaddicts.com/media/q1/1075608.png

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Ron-Paul-Quote-Facebook-460x369.jpg

Monkey with the tax code all they want - SPENDING IS THE REAL TAX!!

Wow! Someone on Ron Paul Forums actually using Ron Paul quotes. Been awhile since I've seen it done. + rep!

Swordsmyth
09-28-2017, 04:09 PM
Congress doesn't really want to cut spending. Not Democrats, not Republicans. They say they want to- but they don't actually do it. Programs buy them votes which keep them in office. Cutting programs could cause them to lose their own jobs. Dems and Reps just like to spend the money on different things.

Without the Demoncrats to blame they will swiftly have to cut spending or lose their seats to real liberty candidates.

EBounding
09-29-2017, 06:26 AM
913736882302914562
913738492756283392

specsaregood
09-29-2017, 06:46 AM
913736882302914562
913738492756283392


wouldn't the proper solution be to eliminate the federal income tax? and make it so that the STATES themselves pay that tax to the fed instead? give the state govts a reason to refuse federal govt "services"

William Tell
09-29-2017, 06:58 AM
We is the right. Libertarianism, Constitutionalism, and any philosophies or inclinations valuing property, liberty, and the rule of law are firmly and solidly and only part of the right. We are right-wing. I know we love to imagine we transcend all of that, floating up in the clouds, superior to everyone, neither left nor right, but rather perfect. Sorry, that's bologna. The love of liberty is a right-wing value. It took me a long time to realize this truth, due to Nolan Chart propaganda, but it's true. I'd be happy to discuss further. It's imperative that we accept this truth and act accordingly.



Obviously. We would win even more if they repealed the income tax. We would win even morely more if the FedGov shrunk down to a $10 billion dollar per year budget. We would win bigly if the NSA and the CIA and the FBI and all the alphabet soup were all given immediate pink slips (and probably assassinated simultaneously; you'd probably have to, unfortunately, just kill them all, at min. the leaders, to prevent them simply saying "umm, right, no thank you" and taking over the gov). We would win really bigly if the FedGov would start abiding by its charter, its Law: the Constitution.

So you can see, I too am all for listing wholly imaginary ways in which we could imaginarily win. Let's list some more! Got any favorites, William?

I just don't see how taxing blue states more is a win for liberty. I agreed with Rand when he said Graham/Cassidy was petty for that reason. If the GOP was serious about cutting both spending and taxes that would be a win. I just don't see any reason I should cheer more of the can kicking that's been going on for a century.

EBounding
09-29-2017, 07:04 AM
I just don't see how taxing blue states more is a win for liberty.

I guess I don't look at it as taxing blue states more, but taxing everyone equally. Why should someone making $100K in New Hampshire pay more fed income tax than someone making $100K in New York?

This tax plan has hardly any details though; I doubt it's going to go anywhere or look anything like they're proposing right now.

William Tell
09-29-2017, 07:15 AM
I guess I don't look at it as taxing blue states more, but taxing everyone equally. Why should someone making $100K in New Hampshire pay more fed income tax than someone making $100K in New York?They shouldn't. Is that all this is? If so I misunderstood what I read.


This tax plan has hardly any details though; I doubt it's going to go anywhere or look anything like they're proposing right now.If it's fairer and lower than what we have then I suppose it's an improvement. We shall see.

donnay
09-29-2017, 07:22 AM
It will also flush out those states/cities that are allowed sanctuary for illegal aliens that cause all our taxes to go up.

New York Could Lose Billions as Trump Attacks Sanctuary Cities
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20170125/midtown/sanctuary-city-new-york-funding-how-much

helmuth_hubener
09-29-2017, 08:52 AM
I just don't see how taxing blue states more is a win for liberty. It is a win for the reason I mentioned: it takes resources away from blue states. This is really very simple:

1. Increasing the level of taxation on someone decreases the amount of resources he has.
2. Blue states are full of blue people. These are anti-civilization people. They are bad guys. Not *the* bad guys, but by being opposed to everything of which we are in favor, they are distinctly unhelpful to our project.
3. Hurting the bad guys is helpful to our project. If Planned Parenthood has less money, if we can take away from La Raza and SPLC and PETA and the Sierra Club and the Brady Campaign and the Violence Policy Center and all the other thousands of very well-organized, well-funded third-worldist outfits some of their billions and billions of dollars, every dollar they lose is a win for us and our project to save civilization.


If the GOP was serious about cutting both spending and taxes that would be a win. Great! Thank you for the imaginary win! I feel more like a winner just reading that. I do, actually. Just as you do, writing it. It's great for the dopamine. It bears no relationship with reality.

We can all be winners in La-La Land! :toady:


I just don't see any reason I should cheer more of the can kicking that's been going on for a century. Well, this tax-reform proposal is not "can kicking" nor "more of the same can-kicking." It greatly simplifies and sane-ifies the tax system, making compliance much easier. Anything that makes our outlandishly dysfunctional system even a little bit sane is a huge step in the right direction, and this makes it a lot sane, so I guess that means it's hugely huge.

What's going to happen here is this: it's not going to pass. Nothing is going to pass. Trump keeps putting forward these centrist proposals, and presumably is going to keep doing so, and they are going to keep getting bogged down and shot down in Congress. He's letting Congress crash and burn, you see. He's letting them fail. Very visibly. They're hanging themselves right now. They've never been up against a force like this. They don't know how to deal with it (because they don't know how to deal with anything -- they're complete incompetents, buffoonish figureheads who have not been involved in the running of government for about 30 years: that's done by the communist (literally in many cases!) bureaucrats). They thought business as usual would be fine; that is, that prattling and blustering and accomplishing nothing would be fine. Instead, the entire propositional base the GOP is built on right now -- lowering taxes and reducing government in health care -- is being exposed as a fraud, by President Trump. 2018 is going to come and Congress will have done nothing and have shown themselves to be total losers, obstructing Trump's reasonable, centrist agenda. The Dems will lose even more seats, some more hard-right and nationalist men on board with Trump's general agenda will be swept in on the GOP side, and more and more the GOP will see that Trumpism is the only way forward. That is my prediction.

CaptUSA
09-29-2017, 10:08 AM
...Hurting the bad guys is helpful to our project.

Be careful what you wish for. If this really happened, you'd see an exodus from the blue states. And guess where those "bad guys" will go? You got it - "Red" states.

The answer to liberty isn't hurting those opposed to us. That's completely backwards. Once you've ceded the idea that government can give benefits to some by imposing their will on others, why be surprised or outraged when it happens to you? You don't really care about liberty - you just want a government that works for your benefit - EXACTLY like those you think are "bad guys".

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 10:56 AM
Be careful what you wish for. If this really happened, you'd see an exodus from the blue states. And guess where those "bad guys" will go? You got it - "Red" states.

That is already happening, if this perfectly fair and good idea drives them to secede instead then we win in a manner we have only been able to dream of before the CALExit movement.

helmuth_hubener
09-29-2017, 11:27 AM
Be careful what you wish for. If this really happened, you'd see an exodus from the blue states. And guess where those "bad guys" will go? You got it - "Red" states.

The answer to liberty isn't hurting those opposed to us. That's completely backwards.

The answer to winning a competition isn't inflicting damage upon those opposed to you? That's completely backwards?

Have you ever been in a competition before? Even something girly like soccer? The objective of the game is to win. I mean, I know everyone gets a trophy nowadays, but that can't completely conceal the true nature of the game from you. Does it? I know it's super-fun to post on political forums about how holy and perfect your ideas are, and how stomped upon and totally demolished you are being by the other team, but..... wouldn't it be more productive to work on actually winning?


Once you've ceded the idea that government can give benefits to some by imposing their will on others, why be surprised or outraged when it happens to you?


https://i1.wp.com/nxx14.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/chyx-1lveaiviex.jpg


You don't really care about liberty - you just want a government that works for your benefit - EXACTLY like those you think are "bad guys".

There are long-term goals and there are short-term goals. Let's not confuse and conflate the two. Now it's not your fault. My thoughts are complex. You may never understand them. Certainly you will not if you have no interest in doing so. As you very well may not! No worries. But to just explain my self at least a little, very minimally:

I do really care about liberty. I have a strong love of and moral commitment to liberty.

I want The State to not tax anyone.

What I want, especially when it is so far off in La-La Land as the above statement, has no impact nor bearing upon what The State does.

So sit back, enjoy the ride, man, and realize that if the day ever comes when the Total Loser Outsider Party starts actually putting up a whimper of an opposition to the Completely-In-Control-of-Everything-Important Leftist Party, that would be a very, very good thing for liberty. Can't agree with that? Don't worry, Cap'n: it probably won't happen any time soon.

Superfluous Man
09-29-2017, 11:34 AM
As Rand Paul notes, revenue neutral tax cuts are not really tax cuts- they are tax "shifts". To be revenue neutral, you have to raise taxes on somebody to pay for lowering the taxes on somebody else.

As Jean Baptiste Colbert put it:
"The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to procure the largest quantity of feathers with the least possible amount of hissing."
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Colbert

CaptUSA
09-29-2017, 11:59 AM
There are long-term goals and there are short-term goals. Let's not confuse and conflate the two. Now it's not your fault. My thoughts are complex. You may never understand them.

:rolleyes: Anyone want to introduce this guy to Ron Paul?

Your ends will never justify your means. Your thoughts aren't complex at all. You make the same mistakes all subjects make. "we just need a benevolent king to use his power for us! Let's give him moar power - just until we win, then we'll get it back! Yeah, that's how it works!!!"

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 12:03 PM
:rolleyes: Anyone want to introduce this guy to Ron Paul?

Your ends will never justify your means. Your thoughts aren't complex at all. You make the same mistakes all subjects make. "we just need a benevolent king to use his power for us! Let's give him moar power - just until we win, then we'll get it back! Yeah, that's how it works!!!"

When we win and bring the country closer to your ideals than it ever could have been before will you thank us?

I doubt it, but I don't care, success is it's own reward.
CALExit is the best thing about Dump, even better than Gorsuch.

specsaregood
09-29-2017, 12:04 PM
The answer to winning a competition isn't inflicting damage upon those opposed to you? That's completely backwards?


But as I pointed out, this tax plan is completely backwards and works against our goals. It will simply further suck the taxes/money from the states to the federal government, growing the fed an shrinking the smaller govt. I would prefer a plan that eliminates the personal federal income taxes, and forces the states to collect all the taxes then paying them to the fed.

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 12:07 PM
But as I pointed out, this tax plan is completely backwards and works against our goals. It will simply further suck the taxes/money from the states to the federal government, growing the fed an shrinking the smaller govt. I would prefer a plan that eliminates the personal federal income taxes, and forces the states to collect all the taxes then paying them to the fed.

After CALExit we can go for that, you will never see that in your lifetime without CALExit.

CaptUSA
09-29-2017, 12:31 PM
When we win and bring the country closer to your ideals than it ever could have been before will you thank us?

The better question is whether or not you'll take responsibility for giving the government MOAR power??? And I already know the answer.

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 12:35 PM
The better question is whether or not you'll take responsibility for giving the government MOAR power??? And I already know the answer.

This does not give them more power, they already have the power to tax incomes and allow/disallow whatever deductions they want.

CaptUSA
09-29-2017, 12:55 PM
This does not give them more power, they already have the power to tax incomes and allow/disallow whatever deductions they want.

Whether you realize it or not, you are acknowledging their power to use their taxes to selectively affect certain people more than others. Even conservatives used to be opposed to that. So now, you are part of the problem. So don't be surprised when the tables are turned on you by the party that doesn't like you.

Seriously, I'm not sure how this is so hard to grasp. The ends never justify the means. You either stand against the power of the State or for it. You guys just LOOOVE a powerful state if it's being used against your enemies. So do your enemies. You're no better than they are for liberty!

It is only the liberty folks who understand the enemy IS that State.

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 01:00 PM
Whether you realize it or not, you are acknowledging their power to use their taxes to selectively affect certain people more than others. Even conservatives used to be opposed to that. So now, you are part of the problem. So don't be surprised when the tables are turned on you by the party that doesn't like you.

Seriously, I'm not sure how this is so hard to grasp. The ends never justify the means. You either stand against the power of the State or for it. You guys just LOOOVE a powerful state if it's being used against your enemies. So do your enemies. You're no better than they are for liberty!

It is only the liberty folks who understand the enemy IS that State.

This changes nothing about their power, the left has used targeted taxation since the beginning of the income tax, and this makes the tax more even, as things are libs in high tax states get a tax break that is bigger than people in low tax states.

CaptUSA
09-29-2017, 01:12 PM
This changes nothing about their power, the left has used targeted taxation since the beginning of the income tax, and this makes the tax more even, as things are libs in high tax states get a tax break that is bigger than people in low tax states.

:rolleyes: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?515366-New-GOP-tax-plan-eliminates-deductions-for-state-and-local-taxes&p=6530961&viewfull=1#post6530961

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 01:17 PM
:rolleyes: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?515366-New-GOP-tax-plan-eliminates-deductions-for-state-and-local-taxes&p=6530961&viewfull=1#post6530961

I agree with Dr. Ron, but this may be the best we can get from Dump, we probably won't get this from congress.

We need this and reduced spending and reduced revenue, when CALExit happens maybe we can do that.

Sonny Tufts
09-29-2017, 01:27 PM
Whether you realize it or not, you are acknowledging their power to use their taxes to selectively affect certain people more than others. Even conservatives used to be opposed to that.

Both parties have used the tax code to push their particular agendas since day one. Want to protect your business from foreign competition? Get Congress to raise tariffs. Want to transfer money to the poor? Give them refundable child credits. Want to lower taxes for businesses? Increase the amount they can expense for buying equipment instead of requiring them to depreciate the cost over time. Want to encourage home ownership? Allow a deduction for home mortgage interest (but not too much -- limit the amount "the rich" can deduct). Want to require "the rich" to pay tax even though the law doesn't require them to? Enact the Alternative Minimum Tax.

CaptUSA
09-29-2017, 01:30 PM
I agree with Dr. Ron, but this may be the best we can get from Dump, we probably won't get this from congress.

We need this and reduced spending and reduced revenue, when CALExit happens maybe we can do that.

http://c1961792.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/21833507644a5e18b7066745280b294c.gif

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 01:36 PM
http://c1961792.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/21833507644a5e18b7066745280b294c.gif

You are the one giving lectures to the other passengers about how corrupt the Star shipping line is, we are trying to man the pumps and direct damage control teams.

Ender
09-29-2017, 02:28 PM
You are the one giving lectures to the other passengers about how corrupt the Star shipping line is, we are trying to man the pumps and direct damage control teams.

Then get rid of your right/left paradigm- it's a ruse.

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 02:35 PM
Then get rid of your right/left paradigm- it's a ruse.

The left is entirely lost, all green shoots of liberty are on the right, show me a leftist that is better than his opponent on the right and I will support him. (I won't be holding my breath waiting)

Gumba of Liberty
09-29-2017, 03:22 PM
Then get rid of your right/left paradigm- it's a ruse.

Truth, it's a racket like everything else. In regards to the rest of Swordsmyth post, I completely agree that Trump's Tax Plan is a step in the right direction. I live in NJ. The suburban yuppy "NYC Commuting Class" (statist social-engineers who believe that they make the big bucks because they are soooo much more talented than the rest of fly-over America :rolleyes:) deserves a swift kick in the ass. Property taxes in my home town average $12,000 per year. The only way to "make it" is to have an income large enough to deduct the taxes in their entirety. Working class people get hosed (and the smart ones leave). All the while, the working class is being systematically replaced by an underclass of foreigners too desperate for work and too uneducated to protect their Natural Rights from this pretenscious, parasitic, unskilled, Fiat Banking "Nobility".

I say let it burn.

Ender
09-29-2017, 08:21 PM
The left is entirely lost, all green shoots of liberty are on the right, show me a leftist that is better than his opponent on the right and I will support him. (I won't be holding my breath waiting)

You're not going to find one because all the "leftists" say the right buzz words for their supporters and the "right" does the same.

Show me any significant change in policy whenever the gov has a right or left majority.

There isn't one.

William Tell
09-29-2017, 08:36 PM
You're not going to find one because all the "leftists" say the right buzz words for their supporters and the "right" does the same.

Show me any significant change in policy whenever the gov has a right or left majority.

There isn't one.

The only saving grace for the right has been at the state level, the federal level is a joke of course. There are some states that are freer than others and none of them that I can think of have total Democrat control. Don't get me wrong I don't trust 99 out of 100 Republican legislators as far as I can throw them. But every now and then a significant pro freedom piece of legislation makes a red state a far more desirable place to live. parental, gun, property rights etc. It's true some blue states have better drug laws than red ones, but the same is true for some purple ones. And the population everywhere is moving towards legalization.

in 10 years I can see the red states legalizing marijuana but I can't see California rolling back their gun laws. I try not to be blinded by partisanship just calling it how I see it.

euphemia
09-29-2017, 08:42 PM
Then get rid of your right/left paradigm- it's a ruse.

No kidding. Right/left is really just the wealthy and powerful doing their best to gain more wealth and power.

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 08:55 PM
You're not going to find one because all the "leftists" say the right buzz words for their supporters and the "right" does the same.

Show me any significant change in policy whenever the gov has a right or left majority.

There isn't one.

When you find a Leftist Dr. Ron Paul/Dr. Rand Paul/Massie/Amash/Walter Jones/Labrador/etc. we can talk, until then you are just making a fool of yourself, ALL the green shoots of liberty are on the RIGHT!

Ender
09-29-2017, 09:07 PM
When you find a Leftist Dr. Ron Paul/Dr. Rand Paul/Massie/Amash/Walter Jones/Labrador/etc. we can talk, until then you are just making a fool of yourself, ALL the green shoots of liberty are on the RIGHT!

So, tell me- what major policy changes for Liberty have happened under a Repub majority?

Waiting...................

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 09:10 PM
So, tell me- what major policy changes for Liberty have happened under a Repub majority?

Waiting...................

Our revolution is still in it's cradle, the left is barren.

nikcers
09-29-2017, 09:39 PM
New GOP tax plan includes world police. 700B dollar military TAXATION bill while 700B "budget deficit" I'll tell you how to lower the REAL tax.

Ender
09-29-2017, 09:54 PM
Our revolution is still in it's cradle, the left is barren.

Ah..... so, no answer because there has been no distinguishable difference, amirite? ;)

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 09:59 PM
Ah..... so, no answer because there has been no distinguishable difference, amirite? ;)

We have a movement going the right direction, the left was not only worse to begin with but it is rapidly moving the wrong direction.

Ender
09-29-2017, 10:03 PM
We have a movement going the right direction, the left was not only worse to begin with but it is rapidly moving the wrong direction.

The movement going in the "right direction" is NOT the "right". It is a small group for Liberty.

AGAIN- there is NO difference between the left & right- it is a ruse to take everyone's eye off of what's really going on.

Swordsmyth
09-29-2017, 10:10 PM
The movement going in the "right direction" is NOT the "right". It is a small group for Liberty.

AGAIN- there is NO difference between the left & right- it is a ruse to take everyone's eye off of what's really going on.

It is the "Right", ALL the good guys are Republicans, NONE are Demoncrats.

Ender
09-29-2017, 10:12 PM
It is the "Right", ALL the good guys are Republicans, NONE are Demoncrats.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0peBq89ZTrc


Keep thinking that.

CaptUSA
09-30-2017, 09:02 AM
You are the one giving lectures to the other passengers about how corrupt the Star shipping line is, we are trying to man the pumps and direct damage control teams.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/02/c2/4c02c25fa9bb4abc7ef1fe18e456bf1e.jpg

Ender
09-30-2017, 09:09 AM
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/02/c2/4c02c25fa9bb4abc7ef1fe18e456bf1e.jpg

AMEN.

Gumba of Liberty
09-30-2017, 10:11 AM
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/02/c2/4c02c25fa9bb4abc7ef1fe18e456bf1e.jpg

How is allowing residents of NY, NJ and California to pay their own tax rates (the ones that they chose for themselves) a totalitarian act? It might actually wake some people up. Half will want lower taxes. Half will want secession. Win-win-win.

The removal of the state and local deduction encourages lower state and local government taxes. It might also encourage principled State candidates to run on more radical plaforms (in low tax states) like abolishing property taxes entirely.

Sounds good to me.

CaptUSA
09-30-2017, 10:45 AM
How is allowing residents of NY, NJ and California to pay their own tax rates (the ones that they chose for themselves) a totalitarian act? It might actually wake some people up. Half will want lower taxes. Half will want secession. Win-win-win.

The removal of the state and local deduction encourages lower state and local government taxes. It might also encourage principled State candidates to run on more radical plaforms (in low tax states) like abolishing property taxes entirely.

Sounds good to me.

Ugh. Please keep up. Spending is the real tax! Spending. You are debating various methods of collecting. Literally rearranging the deck chairs of the tax code. The collection methods are nothing but a shell game for political purposes. Most of the taxes aren't collected directly anyway. They're collected through a devaluation of currency, debt and misallocated resources.

Gumba of Liberty
09-30-2017, 11:19 AM
Ugh. Please keep up. Spending is the real tax! Spending. You are debating various methods of collecting. Literally rearranging the deck chairs of the tax code. The collection methods are nothing but a shell game for political purposes. Most of the taxes aren't collected directly anyway. They're collected through a devaluation of currency, debt and misallocated resources.

Someone will pay for all this spending. I say it's going to be those holding bonds, dollars and stocks denominated in dollars. If those in low tax states can keep more of their fiat dollars, from the IRS, and convert them into real money before this whole house of cards comes crashing down the better. These states should be rewarded for fiscal prudence. Big government states should not be able to pay less taxes because they choose to tax themselves more. That is their choice. They should see and feel those results good and hard.

Besides, I believe your central point to be a fallacy. Alternative non-fiat forms of money i.e. gold and silver enable you to escape devaluation. Taxes do not equal spending if I can buy silver and protect my savings. The bills will come due but not everyone will be splitting the tab when this whole thing comes crashing down.

This, coming from a guy from NJ.

Ender
09-30-2017, 12:15 PM
I'll go along with Ron Paul:

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/5428052004001/?#sp=show-clips

Swordsmyth
09-30-2017, 02:37 PM
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/02/c2/4c02c25fa9bb4abc7ef1fe18e456bf1e.jpg


AMEN.


Changing deductions is not totalitarian, I support lower spending and lower taxes but this plan is good as far as it goes.

CaptUSA
09-30-2017, 04:11 PM
I'll go along with Ron Paul:

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/5428052004001/?#sp=show-clips

Outta rep.

Those other guys in this thread that don't get it would benefit immensely by watching this clip!

It's amazing how Ron Paul always finds the right position. Maybe he has principles or something.

Gumba of Liberty
09-30-2017, 05:09 PM
Outta rep.

Those other guys in this thread that don't get it would benefit immensely by watching this clip!

It's amazing how Ron Paul always finds the right position. Maybe he has principles or something.

Look this isn't a cult. The reason I agree with the Bill of Rights, Natural Law and Dr. Paul is because the philosophy makes logical sense. I trust in the math. I use reason when forming my opinions.

While I believe that Dr. Paul is right that spending is a more important (in terms of size of govt.) than taxation, I do not believe for a minute that they are the same. A sovereign state (or individual) always has a right to default on obligations.The Fed will never honestly default but either way I don't have to hold dollars.

Now, will most people suffer because of the coming devaluation of the dollar? Yes, and this is what Dr. Paul is saying. It doesn't matter what the tax rate is, the spending rate will cause the Fed to monetize the debt.

I disagree that the tax rate is meaningless though. If (and ifs are always iffy) a President and Congress was able to pass reform that actually lowered taxes, even if it didn't lower spending, it would be a step in the right direction. If the way we lower federal taxes is to require the citizens of high tax states to suffer the consequences of their own states legislatures and actually pay their taxes without federal help then so be it. It's an incremental step in the direction of liberty. I'll take it.

Krugminator2
09-30-2017, 05:23 PM
Isn't this pretty standard? Pretty Cruz and Paul and Steve Forbes' flat tax and consumption tax proposals were the exact same as far as eliminating these deductions as Trump's. The FAIR Tax obviously wouldn't allow for property tax deductions. This doesn't seem that controversial to me.

The right thing to do would be to eliminate all perverse deductions like the mortgage interest and child care deductions and have a low flat rate or a very slightly tiered rate.

CaptUSA
09-30-2017, 06:09 PM
Look this isn't a cult.

Agreed it's not a cult. It's just that some of us share and fully understand the same principles that Dr. Paul has been trying to explain. Others have a sense that he's right, but don't know why, or they pick and choose certain part of those principles when it suits their beliefs.

I really don't care about how they re-arrange the tax code, because it doesn't matter if they're going to keep spending. I have no desire to use the government taxation method to "hurt the bad guys" or help the "good" guys. That's not consistent with my principles of liberty.

And yeah, they could cut income taxes to zero for everybody and the same wealth would be withdrawn from the economy - because it's not the method of collecting taxes that matters - it's the spending. I like to see taxes go lower and I like to see as many "deductions" for as many people as possible. But all of that is beside the point. Because the government gets their money whether they tax you, borrow from your future labor, print the money or inflate the prices. As Dr. Paul has said, cutting taxes while increasing spending is immoral, since you're really just taxing the next generation and the poor get hit the hardest.

All this re-arranging of the tax code deck chairs to make things "better for some and worse for others" is a complete distraction from liberty. It's the principle.

Gumba of Liberty
09-30-2017, 09:32 PM
I really don't care about how they re-arrange the tax code

That is bold statement. You don't care how you are robbed? Even if a different method of robbery is easier to circumvent? I do. Lower taxes are always preferable to higher taxes, period.


because it doesn't matter if they're going to keep spending.

So if it doesn't matter why don't they just raise income taxes to 60%? Since it doesn't matter I'm sure it would have no effect on your liberty :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but of course tax rates matter (even when the govt has a printing press). The truth is, the Feds are out of control and will continue spending no matter what. If they raise taxes the taxpayers will pay the piper now as the tax eaters continue to feed (until the productive go Galt). If they lower taxes holders of bonds, dollars, US stocks, and Govt IOU's (SS, Medicare, Medicaid) will pay for the spending later. Either way the country is screwed. Although the latter allows economically literate individuals to withdraw their savings from the system before it implodes. I'd take lower taxes any day.


I have no desire to use the government taxation method to "hurt the bad guys" or help the "good" guys. That's not consistent with my principles of liberty.

How am I hurting the bad guys? I want to allow those that want high taxes (bad guys) to pay for those taxes. Shouldn't people (including bad guys) be able to harm themselves in a free society?


And yeah, they could cut income taxes to zero for everybody and the same wealth would be withdrawn from the economy - because it's not the method of collecting taxes that matters - it's the spending.

No, the extraction would be different. Gold, silver, land and other hard assets would go to the moon. The extracted wealth would come from those clinging to fiat idols (bonds, dollars, stocks denominated in dollars, and government IOUs). Like all that develop degenerate behavior, these indivduals must suffer the consequences of their own actions. That is the price of liberty.

helmuth_hubener
09-30-2017, 10:15 PM
But as I pointed out, this tax plan is completely backwards and works against our goals. It will simply further suck the taxes/money from the states to the federal government, growing the fed an shrinking the smaller govt. I would prefer a plan that eliminates the personal federal income taxes, and forces the states to collect all the taxes then paying them to the fed.

Yes, you made a good and creative point and I agreed with it. Long term, it could exacerbate that particular problem.

There's more than that one element to the tax reform and simplification proposal, though, and overall I think any of you would admit: it's quite good.

nikcers
09-30-2017, 11:45 PM
Most of the tax revenue collected by gov is collected by the top earners because they have more money to tax. Therefore spending is much more of a tax on the people who can't get a fair shake. Any shifting of the tax burden is just going to benefit the people who pay a lot of tax, not people who only pay a little. In fact it could exacerbate the inflation that we already have if it makes us have to print more money to pay for the government spending thats out of control.

William Tell
10-02-2017, 07:34 PM
Rand doesn't sound thrilled about this plan. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?515518-Rand-Paul-criticizes-GOP-tax-plan

Swordsmyth
10-02-2017, 07:47 PM
Rand doesn't sound thrilled about this plan. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?515518-Rand-Paul-criticizes-GOP-tax-plan

It is not good enough, but it may be better than what we have, I doubt that it will pass, anything better absolutely won't.

We need to get rid of more RINOs and more Demoncrats in 2018, it would be nice if we could get someone better than Dump in 2020 too.

nikcers
10-02-2017, 07:50 PM
It is not good enough, but it may be better than what we have, I doubt that it will pass, anything better absolutely won't.

We need to get rid of more RINOs and more Demoncrats in 2018, it would be nice if we could get someone better than Dump in 2020 too.
Our government is sponsoring terror groups that shoot up our cities, this is bigger then 2020, we are at war with our own government.

Swordsmyth
10-02-2017, 07:51 PM
Our government is sponsoring terror groups that shoot up our cities, this is bigger then 2020, we are at war with our own government.

There is another thread for that.

nikcers
10-02-2017, 07:54 PM
There is another thread for that.
what the thread about the government wanting to take more of our money isn't big enough to talk about them spending that money sponsoring terror groups that attack our cities?

Swordsmyth
10-02-2017, 07:57 PM
what the thread about the government wanting to take more of our money isn't big enough to talk about them spending that money sponsoring terror groups that attack our cities?

This thread is about the tax system, if you want to talk about terrorism/"war on the people" put it in the shooting thread or make your own.

nikcers
10-02-2017, 08:03 PM
This thread is about the tax system, if you want to talk about terrorism/"war on the people" put it in the shooting thread or make your own.
Gee whizz swordsmyth how many tax dollars do you think it cost to maintain and oppose ISIS?

jmdrake
10-02-2017, 08:03 PM
or cut spending

Or have a national lottery. Or a national "go fund me" page? I'm serious about both proposals. Why not? Why not let those who want to pay for a new B-3 stealth bomber just donate for it? Same for those who want more money for the arts or healthcare or whatever.

Swordsmyth
10-02-2017, 08:08 PM
Gee whizz swordsmyth how many tax dollars do you think it cost to maintain and oppose ISIS?

Even a penny is too much, ISIS is evil, there are threads for that.

nikcers
10-02-2017, 08:11 PM
Even a penny is too much, ISIS is evil, there are threads for that.
Okay so this is a fake tax cut, just like our fake war on ISIS because we sponsor ISIS with our taxes.