Should Ron be more optimistic on IRAQ - things may be gettign much better

[rp08rp]

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2007/12/bond-market-on-iraq.html

If they are, he should at least be hopeful or recognize things are getting better.

[xd9fan]

good or bad
Its time for them to be home.
It Unconstitutional.

[curtisag]

It's irrelevant. It's further evidence that we could leave and things wouldn't be so bad. The Iraqis can work things out for themselves. If they didn't have the US military there, they'd have a big incentive to do so as well.

Furthermore, we can no longer afford to spend money like drunken sailors around the world.

[10thAmendmentMan]

Violence has dropped because everything worth bombing and everyone worth killing has already been bombed, killed, or fled. It could also be trickery of statistics where acts of violence are classified differently than they have been in the past (or simply not counted).

[EvoPro]

I think he should say, as Andrew Napolitano has, the best we can hope for is a stable government. We can not force Democracy on them.

[Ron Paul Fan]

It's just propoganda. Don't fall for their tricks. We must not occupy other nations. The best thing we can do for the Iraqi people is to give them their country back!

[American]

Violence against Americans has dropped but there is still allot of secular violence, and either way I dont want to pay for any more money to expand the Oil Cartels profits. period

[freedominnumbers]

Consider, things are still not less violent than before we invaded and invited terrorist violence.

It is a fact that putting an enforcer on every corner will prevent more crime than having no enforcers. Given that, it was clear from the beginning that the surge would work in the areas that have the concentration of troops.

Ron Paul is still right. The war is illegal and too costly and must end today. The Iraqi people are no closer today to a true representative government of the people than the day Saddam was hanged.

Neo-cons like to make the news about the surge seem like news about a victory, yet they still haven't told anyone what the terms of victory are. The news about the surge is common sense and we are no closer to victory because of it since there is no measure of victory in an undeclared war.

[ChickenHawk]

I think the drop in violence is a perfect opportunity to declare victory and end the occupation. Pulling out at the height of the violence would have been a dangerous show of weakness but now we can say "mission accomplished" with some credibility.

[Spirit of '76]

Here's the new selling point:

Last week Dick Cheney said that Iraq will be self-governing and self-defending by January of 2009.

That means that Iraq will be able to stand entirely on its own by the time the next president takes office, according the current Vice President.

Therefore, it doesn't matter that Ron wants to bring the troops home from Iraq. Vice President Cheney says that by the time he takes office, it'll be OK to bring them home.

We should therefore vote for the candidate with the best domestic agenda and the longest, most consistent record of conservatism.

[RPinSEAZ]

Things have gotten better. Great, now get out of their country and stop occupying other nations. End of story!

[qednick]

Of course things are going to "get better" right before elections. :rolleyes:

[Elwar]

If Hitler's goal of a master race were within sight would it be time to change strategies and start supporting him?

[ChickenHawk]

I have long had the opinion that Bush would do everything possible to end the occupation before he leaves office. I think all signs point to that right now. The war most likely will not be a major issue in the presidential campaign.

[lasenorita]

Iraq Calmer, but More Divided (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-splinter10dec10,1,1961876,full.story?coll=la-headlines-world&ctrack=1&cset=true)
The US troop buildup has brought down violence, but that has failed to spark cooperation among politicians. If anything, the country appears more balkanized into ethnic and sectarian enclaves.


Baghdad safer, but it's a life behind walls (http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1210/p01s04-wome.html)
Mini fortified 'green zones' are cropping up, improving security but leaving many residents feeling penned in.

[Thomas Paine]

By most accounts, the "surge" has been successful to date. However, the purpose for the "surge" was to give the Iraqi government breathing space to get its act together. The Iraqi government is doing absolutely nothing to take advantage of the breathing space provided by the "surge." Consequently, American GIs are dying while the Iraqi politicians fiddle.

In Vietnam, the U.S. won all the battles. However, the South Vietnamese government was hopelessly corrupt and incompetent. Therefore, analogies between Iraq and South Vietnam are valid.

We should pull out of Iraq now. If the Iraqi government falls and Iraq descends into chaos like Vietnam, it will not be because the U.S. let the Iraqis down. It will be because the Iraqi politicians let their countrymen down and failed to get their act together during the breathing space that was bought and paid for with the blood of Americans.

[Elwar]

When Ron Paul wins the primary they will have two candidates competing for the general election who are against the war.

They will have plenty of time between then and January to start pulling out.

[Voluntaryist]

BOOOOO! This thread is EPIC FAIL.

Should we support illegal wars just cause we are winning them? Fuck that. Fuck the war. I dont care if we turn Iraq into a secular superrich paradise, the invasion was wrong. Period. End of story.

The ends do not justify the means, dammit.

[Liberty]

We can't afford to keep throwing taxpayer's money away for the benefit of special interests. There's a whole lot of cash and weapons that can't be accounted for.

[Noleader]

The abusive husband quits beating his wife when the cops are on the porch... Lets face it we can't be there forever and we can't get them to fight on our terms. Time to come home.

[daviddee]

...

[jgmaynard]

First, from a poltical standpoint, you want Ron to distance himself from the neocons. That will aloow them to finish as closely as possible to one another so Ron takes everyone else. ESPECIALLY with a 70% disapproval rating of the war.

Second, the generals and special envoys are the ones saying that it is getting better - these people have a reason to make it look better than it actually is in real life - they are sucking up to their bosses. The TROOPS, on the other hand, are donating more money to Ron and Obama than ANY pro-war candidate and several recently took out an ad in the NYT (IIRC) saying that the war is going far worse than the American people are being lead to believe. Sorry, I trust the troops more than the generals if I want to know what is going on on the ground there.

Speaking of trust - There are people here saying the war will be over by 1/09 because CHENEY said so? The same guy who lead the WMD lies, the "This war will be a cakewalk and the oil revenues will pay for it" brigade, parroted the "Some taxi driver in Baghdad named curveball whom the Germans said not to trust said that Iraq tried to purchase yellowcake uranium so it must be true" line and who has repeatedly talked about the Iranians trying to build a nuke before the NIE report came out say that the Iranians haven't been building a nuke since 2003?

That guy?

:rolleyes:

JM

[daviddee]

...

[nbhadja]

No it is a complete mess in Iraq. It is unbelievable how bad we made things worse over there.

[drain]

ok this surge is working stuff has got to stop.

progress would be having less troops there and less violence.

surge is more troops = less violence

that is completely the opposite point of what they are trying to accomplish

if the surge was 1,000,000 troops there would probably be no violence.


the logic is absolutely incorrect and just shows that we are completely f'd!

-adrian

[JMann]

If we put a million US troops in Iraq it would probably be much a safer place. It would on bankrupt our country but hell who gives a crap? I'm sure the most important issue facing most people's day-to-day life is that Iraq is safe and I don't mind spending my child's money to make sure that happens.

[Thomas_Paine]

I think the drop in violence is a perfect opportunity to declare victory and end the occupation. Pulling out at the height of the violence would have been a dangerous show of weakness but now we can say "mission accomplished" with some credibility.


"Mission Accomplished. Countless Iraqis Dead, Thousands of Soldiers dead, tens of thousands wounded, 2 million Iraqis displaced, a country in shambles, Al Qaeda stronger than ever. BUT Hey, we got Saddam. It was ALL Worth it. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. "

What a joke. We should not even utter mission accomplished. We should back out shamefully with our tails between our legs like the murderous corrupt policeman we are.

WHAT THE UNITED STATES HAS DONE IN IRAQ IS UNFORGIVABLE.

[Menthol Patch]

We should not be in Iraq, Germany, Korea, or a hundred other nations in the first place! We need to bring all our troops home NOW!

[winston_blade]

It doesn't matter. WE can't afford it.

[Perry]

If we invade France and are winning the war, does that make everything ok? Because we are winning does not make a just war.

[Luther]

Violence has dropped because everything worth bombing and everyone worth killing has already been bombed, killed, or fled. It could also be trickery of statistics where acts of violence are classified differently than they have been in the past (or simply not counted).

Violence is down in Baghdad because Baghdad has been ethnically cleansed.

[Ron Paul Fan]

If it was a mistake to go, it's a mistake to stay. If you want to talk about what's moral, what about the acceptance just recently that we now promote preemptive war? I don't think that's part of the American tradition. In the past we've always gone to war in the DEFENSE of our LIBERTIES or go to aid somebody. But now we've accepted the principle of preemptive war. We've rejected the JUST WAR theory of CHRISTIANITY. And now, we hear that we're not even willing to remove from the table a PREEMPTIVE NUCLEAR STRIKE against Iran, a country that has done no harm to us directy and is NO THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY! I mean, we have to come to our senses about this issue of WAR IN PREEMPTION and go back to our traditions in our CONSTITUTION and DEFEND our LIBERTIES and DEFEND our RIGHTS, but NOT to think that we can CHANGE THE WORLD BY FORCIVE ARMS AND TO START WARS!!!!!!!

[fuzzybekool]

You can not compromise on the Constitution, good or bad. You want to go to war ? Then have Congress declare war. What is so ambigious about that ?

[ChickenHawk]

"Mission Accomplished. Countless Iraqis Dead, Thousands of Soldiers dead, tens of thousands wounded, 2 million Iraqis displaced, a country in shambles, Al Qaeda stronger than ever. BUT Hey, we got Saddam. It was ALL Worth it. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. "

What a joke. We should not even utter mission accomplished. We should back out shamefully with our tails between our legs like the murderous corrupt policeman we are.

WHAT THE UNITED STATES HAS DONE IN IRAQ IS UNFORGIVABLE.

Kind of makes you wonder why the Iraqi government and the people who elected them aren't begging us to leave. I think the fact that they want us there is the main reason we should leave. They will never get things right if we are there holding their hands.

War has a tendency to cause lots of people to die. That does not make the war wrong. You can point to horrible things in every war and say it wasn't worth it. Unless you are a pacifist it isn't a very good argument.

[Mithridates]

Approving anything to do with Iraq is still bad because:

-it gives tacit approval to upcoming wars for little or no reason
-it costs way too much and the money should be spent elsewhere
-pulling out of Iraq is only the first step towards a complete change in foreign policy

Plus, if anybody in the media makes the claim that things are getting better just remind yourself that we've reached the point where 0.6 soldier deaths a day (that's the average for this month so far) is good news. How about a person being the victim of spousal abuse only once every second day instead of three times a day like before? Yay, time to be more optimistic about the marriage!

[ChickenHawk]

You can not compromise on the Constitution, good or bad. You want to go to war ? Then have Congress declare war. What is so ambigious about that ?

I tend to agree with that. However, I do find it a bit ironic that Thomas Jefferson, the hero to many "illegal war" opponents, was the first President to engage in an undeclared war.

[Visual]

For Iraq to be a true success means they have a working government. Something that hasn't even come close yet. If we have to wait there to stop a full blown factional civil war till a government is setup, we will be there for another 10-20 years atleast.

[Kingfisher]

Should Ron be more optimistic on IRAQ - things may be gettign much better .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................NO!

[ChickenHawk]

For Iraq to be a true success means they have a working government. Something that hasn't even come close yet. If we have to wait there to stop a full blown factional civil war till a government is setup, we will be there for another 10-20 years atleast.

I agree, they Iraqis have had plenty of time to get their act together. I think it is time for a time limit for troop withdrawal. This should be secret so that only the US and Iraqi Government knows about it. I actually think the the Bush administration has already done this. I could be wrong though.

[Wyurm]

If Hitler's goal of a master race were within sight would it be time to change strategies and start supporting him?

That is an excellent comparison and about sums up my views on this issue. Just because something evil is starting to succeed doesnt make it suddenly become good. Also, I'm sure they are lying on the numbers, thats usually the case.

[Luther]

For Iraq to be a true success means they have a working government. Something that hasn't even come close yet. If we have to wait there to stop a full blown factional civil war till a government is setup, we will be there for another 10-20 years atleast.


Nothing can constitute any humane definition of success after one million people have been killed, four million displaced, an economy and infrastructure destroyed, and a culture annihilated.

[justinc.1089]

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2007/12/bond-market-on-iraq.html

If they are, he should at least be hopeful or recognize things are getting better.

According to Paul things aren't getting better, and part of the south is practically out of our control period. And I trust Paul much more than the news media lol.

At least thats what he said in the last debate, or maybe it was the one before the last idk. The news posted here may be more recent than that, I didn't read this whole thread to be honest because I'm tired out from staying up all night studying for exams and stuff.

[Revolution9]

It is a fact that putting an enforcer on every corner will prevent more crime than having no enforcers.

Put an "enforcer" on every street corner in my neighborhood and I guarantee you many regular fathers and sons and daughters in the neighborhood would become crack snipers. What makes you think the humans in Mesopotamia would react any differently to this kind of effrontery to their manhood, their neighborhood and the shame of subjugation they would feel at not being able to properly protect their family..the prime directive as it were..

Eff a bunch of occupation jackbooting, I care less what uniform they wear. Leave the people, whomever they are and whatever part of the rainbow of humanity they are to their own devices and all will be well.

Regards
Rady

[Goldwater Conservative]

What about violence dropping in Basra, Iraq's second largest city, by 90% after the British left?

[ChickenHawk]

What about violence dropping in Basra, Iraq's second largest city, by 90% after the British left?

That is a good point. I always thought that the occupation was fueling the violence to a large degree. I was actually surprised to see violence go down after the "surge" started. I tend to think that "success" of the surge has more to do with a change in tactics than an increase in troops. Never really agreed with the people who said we didn't have enough troops.

[BillyDkid]

It's completely beside the point. Thousands of Americans are dead and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead and millions have fled the country and it has cost us many billions of dollars borrowed from the Saudis and China, not to mention we invaded a soveriegn country without justification. It is wrong in every possibly respect. The fact that the killing may not be going as badly as it once was is entirely irrelevant.

[Chernitsky]

things are getting "better" because the Bush Admin is trying to save what's left of the GOP's chances in 2008

they release this info at certain times to quell dissent and keep their heads afloat

[Goldwater Conservative]

That is a good point. I always thought that the occupation was fueling the violence to a large degree. I was actually surprised to see violence go down after the "surge" started. I tend to think that "success" of the surge has more to do with a change in tactics than an increase in troops. Never really agreed with the people who said we didn't have enough troops.

Wasn't part of the success attributed to the surge really just due to some local leaders deciding to fight the insurgents more assertively?

[ChickenHawk]

Wasn't part of the success attributed to the surge really just due to some local leaders deciding to fight the insurgents more assertively?


That's what I've heard. I'm sure we have helped them do that but they weren't really doing it before.

[hawkeyenick]

It's not better, the violence has just shifted to different areas

[werdd]

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2007/12/bond-market-on-iraq.html

If they are, he should at least be hopeful or recognize things are getting better.

they are just fudging with the numbers to make it appear better, civilians by the hundreds are still being murdered by the day... and we gave back AL saddr his country in the south.... so were basicly just playing whackamole over there and concentrating our troops in places that are less troublesome, just in time for the elections conveniently.

[AisA1787]

they are just fudging with the numbers to make it appear better, civilians by the hundreds are still being murdered by the day...

Exactly. And there are some people who believe that the Pentagon has really been fudging the numbers all along:


Pentagon cover up: 15,000 or more US deaths in Iraq war?
by Mike Whitney
December 17, 2007
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/13/2007/2922

[Paulitician]

How are things going better in Iraq when this year has been one of the worst :confused:

The media has been trying to sell "things are going better in Iraq" for a long time and I'm not buying it (because they only focus on a good month to try to make their point). If things are getting better, that's even more reason to start withdraw troops and bring them all home if you ask me.

[burningfur]

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2007/12/bond-market-on-iraq.html

If they are, he should at least be hopeful or recognize things are getting better.

No. The longer we stay, the more terrorists we create. Period.

It is a never-ending cycle. It's time to break the circle.

[mconder]

Should Ron be more optimistic on IRAQ - things may be gettign much better

No, because his stance on this war is one of principle and not about how well it's going. You could justify ever possible government intrusion into our liberties thinking like this.

[iloveronpaul]

good or bad
Its time for them to be home.
It Unconstitutional.

Amen brother.

[conner_condor]

How are you going to pay for that war if things are actually getting better?

[nbhadja]

Haven't you learned to not trust the media? Things in Iraq are still a disaster. Millions are without power, clean water, an estimated 700,000+ Iraqis have died due to the result of the war. Millions of refugees were created as a result of the war. The US tries to make you think insurgents are doing all of it, which is BS.

It was flawed and immoral from the beginning, when we went in there with the shock and awe battle technique, which was the blast every part of the city to lower morale. There was "not a single safe place in the city" they targeted, in the words of a US general.