Photo IDs are discriminatory cuz only Anglos can get the correct IDs

[goldenequity]

Texas Voter ID Law Struck Down By Obama Appointed Federal Judge
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/23/texas-voter-id-law-struck-down-federal-judge/

A federal court judge in Texas struck down the state’s voter ID law on Wednesday, ruling it had a discriminatory intent and effect against Hispanic and African American voters.

The decision is a blow to the Texas legislature and to President Trump’s Justice Department, which had asked the judge to halt efforts to overturn the state’s new voter ID law since it had expanded voter ID options from an earlier version, and would protect the integrity of elections in Texas.

But U.S. District Court Judge Judge Nelva Gonzales Ramos said the state’s new law “SB 5”, which had been rewritten to meet requirements set forth from the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals after it had ruled in 2014 against an earlier voter ID law, “SB 14”, did nothing to cure the previous issues of racial animus and issued an injunction, preventing the law from going into effect.

“SB 5 perpetuates the selection of types of ID most likely to be possessed by Anglo voters and, disproportionately, not possessed by Hispanics and African-Americans,” Judge Ramos wrote in the 27-page opinion for the court.

[Swordsmyth]

Texas Voter ID Law Struck Down By Obama Appointed Federal Judge
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/23/texas-voter-id-law-struck-down-federal-judge/

A federal court judge in Texas struck down the state’s voter ID law on Wednesday, ruling it had a discriminatory intent and effect against Hispanic and African American voters.

The decision is a blow to the Texas legislature and to President Trump’s Justice Department, which had asked the judge to halt efforts to overturn the state’s new voter ID law since it had expanded voter ID options from an earlier version, and would protect the integrity of elections in Texas.

But U.S. District Court Judge Judge Nelva Gonzales Ramos said the state’s new law “SB 5”, which had been rewritten to meet requirements set forth from the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals after it had ruled in 2014 against an earlier voter ID law, “SB 14”, did nothing to cure the previous issues of racial animus and issued an injunction, preventing the law from going into effect.

“SB 5 perpetuates the selection of types of ID most likely to be possessed by Anglo voters and, disproportionately, not possessed by Hispanics and African-Americans,” Judge Ramos wrote in the 27-page opinion for the court.

Supreme Court time.


“SB 5 perpetuates the selection of types of ID most likely to be possessed by Anglo voters and, disproportionately, not possessed by Hispanics and African-Americans,” Judge Ramos wrote in the 27-page opinion for the court.

Like proof of citizenship?

[Brian4Liberty]

Where is that "man on the street" video where they were asking black people if they had an ID?

Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs

[Anti Federalist]

U.S. District Court Judge Judge Nelva Gonzales Ramos

No bias there...:rolleyes:

[Brian4Liberty]

Another example of legislating from the bench.

[helmuth_hubener]

Say it with me: "One Hundred New Circuits."

Or, just impeach all the third-worldist judges. That would work, too.

Time to win. The left owns the judiciary. There is no reason to let that continue. Just impeach them all. Every single one. Totally legal. Totally legit. Repeal the fillibuster on Friday. Every single third-worldist judge out on the street by day's end. Same day. No need to wait until Monday. Replace them exclusively with Amish. No non-Amish judges.

[Ender]

I understand the fru-ha-ha over this stuff, but my personal POV is that IDs are actually anti-freedom and are part of big govs scheme to track everyone.

Remember how the SSN was only "temporary" and is now required for EVERYTHING from a bank account to a job to travel to healthcare and beyond? Soon your photo ID will be required to go online or even step out of your house.

Again- JMHPOV.

[euphemia]

That may well be true, but I think people have always carried tokens or letters of some kind to prove they are who they say they are.

There are a lot of things people can't do without ID--bank, drive, use a credit/debit card, get a job, get on a plane, carry a gun, cross the border. Why should voting be any different?

[bunklocoempire]

So my rights are so well defended and promoted by government, that I need to be positively identified by government, so no one can infringe on my rights?

Someone isn't keeping their oath as laid out in their job description, so the boss has to be inconvenienced? Screw that noise. Send 'em all packing.

[Ender]

That may well be true, but I think people have always carried tokens or letters of some kind to prove they are who they say they are.

There are a lot of things people can't do without ID--bank, drive, use a credit/debit card, get a job, get on a plane, carry a gun, cross the border. Why should voting be any different?

Which is all unconstitutional.

[euphemia]

Which is all unconstitutional.

I'm just looking at the big picture. People have generally carried some kind of token to prove they are who they say they are. Government-issued ID is not the solution, but proving identity is a wise thing. We recently had some work done on our house. We were sent photos of the people who came out for the estimate and again for the people who came to do the work. They would not have been allowed on property without it.

[juleswin]

I understand the fru-ha-ha over this stuff, but my personal POV is that IDs are actually anti-freedom and are part of big govs scheme to track everyone.

Remember how the SSN was only "temporary" and is now required for EVERYTHING from a bank account to a job to travel to healthcare and beyond? Soon your photo ID will be required to go online or even step out of your house.

Again- JMHPOV.

Voting itself is anti freedom. Asking people to show ID before voting is just common sense. If you don't have ID in this country, voting is the least of your problems :)

[Zippyjuan]

We should have a national ID Card. Maybe some sort of tattoo on our forehead so we can tell who among us belongs and who does not?

http://supercollidertheater.weebly.com/uploads/3/6/6/1/3661625/6117208.gif

[juleswin]

We should have a national ID Card. Maybe some sort of tattoo on our forehead so we can tell who among us belongs and who does not?

http://supercollidertheater.weebly.com/uploads/3/6/6/1/3661625/6117208.gif

This is a text book example of a slippery slope fallacy. It is an argument that suggests taking a minor action will lead to major and sometimes ludicrous consequences. Dont listen to him, asking for ID would not lead to national ID cards. We already need IDs to drive and we don't have a national ID

[Zippyjuan]

This is a text book example of a slippery slope fallacy. It is an argument that suggests taking a minor action will lead to major and sometimes ludicrous consequences. Dont listen to him, asking for ID would not lead to national ID cards. We already need IDs to drive and we don't have a national ID

One argument heard by the court is that a lot of minorities in cities don't drive and thus don't have a driver's license or other photo ID. Not driving should not exclude them from the right to vote.

[juleswin]

One argument heard by the court is that a lot of minorities in cities don't drive and thus don't have a driver's license or other photo ID. Not driving should not exclude them from the right to vote.

There are other state IDs issued at DMVs that one can get without knowing how to drive. Maybe the liberals would promote that instead of trying to say voter ID laws are discriminatory. This law could actually end up helping these minorities by encouraging the to get IDs

[Swordsmyth]

One argument heard by the court is that a lot of minorities in cities don't drive and thus don't have a driver's license or other photo ID. Not driving should not exclude them from the right to vote.
There are plenty of options allowed under the voter ID laws, welfare requires ID and somehow the poor and minorities can come up with it for that, voting is a voluntary activity just like everything else that requires ID, there is nothing to prevent them from getting the required ID.

[Zippyjuan]

Earlier this year:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/north-carolinas-voter-id-law-supreme-court-cert/526713/


North Carolina's Voter ID Law Is Defeated, For Now

The Supreme Court declined to review the law that lower courts found to be discriminatory, but made no judgment on the merits of the policy.

North Carolina voters probably won’t have to worry about a return of strict voter-ID tests any time soon. Monday, the Supreme Court announced that it would not hear arguments in North Carolina, et al. v. North Carolina State Conference of the NAACP, et al. That case was petitioned by Republican state officials, including then-Governor Pat McCrory, after the Fourth Circuit court found last year that a package of 2013 voting reforms, including the establishment of a strict voter-ID requirement and restrictions on early voting and same-day registration, “were enacted with racially discriminatory intent.”

The Supreme Court’s didn’t consider the merits of the case in its denial of the petition for writ of certiorari. Functionally, that doesn’t matter much for voters in North Carolina, who will likely finally have some measure of stability in upcoming elections, after a hectic 2016 election cycle that featured the Fourth Circuit’s decision, a last-minute scramble to reestablish pre-2013 provisions, a push by local officials to disregard those provisions, a catastrophic storm just days before the election, and a drop-off in early voting among black voters.

The Fourth Circuit’s decision now stands, as does its assessment that the voter-ID law purposefully diminished ballot access for communities of color. Research the General Assembly itself commissioned found that minority communities were more likely to lack access to proper identification and more likely to use ballot-extended practices like early voting. With Democratic Governor Roy Cooper now in office, it seems unlikely that General Assembly Republicans—who crammed the bill through in the hours after the Supreme Court’s Shelby County v. Holder decision severely weakened federal oversight over state election laws—will be able to craft a replacement that could obtain his signature.

Voting-rights activists and Democrats claimed a victory with the Court’s decision. Voting-rights organization Campaign Legal gave a press release stating “it is a huge victory for both North Carolina voters and the country that the Supreme Court will not review the Fourth Circuit’s decision striking down these restrictive laws.” Democratic National Committee Chairman Tom Perez also celebrated the decision in a statement, saying “this is a huge victory for voters and a massive blow to Republicans trying to restrict access to the ballot, especially in communities of color.”

[Zippyjuan]

There are plenty of options allowed under the voter ID laws, welfare requires ID and somehow the poor and minorities can come up with it for that, voting is a voluntary activity just like everything else that requires ID, there is nothing to prevent them from getting the required ID.

What the Texas law allowed:


Under the new law, the permissible IDs remain the same as the earlier law: a state driver's license or ID card, a concealed handgun license, a U.S. passport, a military ID card, a U.S citizenship certificate or an election identification certificate.

https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/23/federal-judge-tosses-new-texas-voter-id-law/

[Swordsmyth]

What the Texas law allowed:



https://www.texastribune.org/2017/08/23/federal-judge-tosses-new-texas-voter-id-law/

Like I said, plenty of options.

[Zippyjuan]

Like I said plenty of options.

Since lots of low income citizens have conceal carry permits, military IDs and passports and driver's licenses. :rolleyes:

Not the US but related topic: India Court rules ID laws violate privacy: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?514357-Indian-court-rules-privacy-a-fundamental-right-in-battle-over-national-ID-cards

[Ender]

There are other state IDs issued at DMVs that one can get without knowing how to drive. Maybe the liberals would promote that instead of trying to say voter ID laws are discriminatory. This law could actually end up helping these minorities by encouraging the to get IDs

A driver's license or any license for a God-given right is unconstitutional. Licenses were supposed to be only for things that would otherwise be illegal. The right to travel was originally considered a God-given right.

[Swordsmyth]

Since lots of low income citizens have conceal carry permits, military IDs and passports and driver's licenses. :rolleyes:

Anyone can get a state ID card or a U.S. passport or a U.S citizenship certificate or an election identification certificate.

[helmuth_hubener]

The left is just looking at results.

Which is an eminently practical thing to do. By the way.

People on the right, such as ourselves, could learn a thing or two from them, if we ever, ever, ever get tired of being hopeless pathetic losers.

Maybe someday?

From the point of view of the practical results, instituting the requirement to show ID, or indeed any anti-fraud measure, has the demonstrated tendency to:

• Reduce the number of non-white votes (third-world peasants, blacks, etc.)
• Reduce the tally of Democrat votes, for both Democrat candidates and Democrat issues

This effect is very clear. State after state. Now could that imply that maybe a lot of these "votes" are in fact fraudulent and that the Democratic Party is to an extent dependent upon voter fraud for its success? Hmm. Be that as it may, one way or another the tally of "minority" (soon to be majority) votes goes down and the tally of Democrat votes goes down with it (obviously, as that is how these people vote).

Now, does that make this racist? Who knows! Is it unfair and insulting for the Dems to be saying, essentially, that their minorities (soon to be majority) are too stupid, incompetent and/or criminal to obtain and show IDs? Who knows! Maybe the minorities really are too stupid to figure this task out! Zippyjuan thinks so. Or maybe their "votes" are fraudulent phantoms, cast on their behalf by others. It doesn't really matter why the phenomenon happens, all that matters regarding voter ID is:

• It's good for us.
• It's bad for them.

Naturally, they fight it, however they can (they bring out their big guns, calling it "racist,").
We should support it.

[helmuth_hubener]

We should have a national ID Card. Maybe some sort of tattoo on our forehead so we can tell who among us belongs and who does not?

http://supercollidertheater.weebly.com/uploads/3/6/6/1/3661625/6117208.gif

I belong. You don't. You know it. Fake American.

Being out-grouped as the Fake American you are is what your damaged amygdala fears most.

[Madison320]

This is a text book example of a slippery slope fallacy. It is an argument that suggests taking a minor action will lead to major and sometimes ludicrous consequences. Dont listen to him, asking for ID would not lead to national ID cards. We already need IDs to drive and we don't have a national ID

I agree. I used to be more of a slippery sloper, but I've kinda changed my thinking a little. Instead of trying to prevent thousands of potential slippery slopes I think it makes more sense to have a few major barriers to big government instead. For example a gold standard, restricting voters to net taxpayers, outlawing public education, etc.

[Zippyjuan]

I belong. You don't. You know it. Fake American.

Being out-grouped as the Fake American you are is what your damaged amygdala fears most.

The country isn't for any single group- it is for all. E pluribus unum. One out of many. That is how it became one of the best places on the planet. Not just rich white dudes.

[Swordsmyth]

The country isn't for any single group- it is for all. E pluribus unum. One out of many. That is how it became one of the best places on the planet. Not just rich white dudes.
It is for those who believe in American values. YOU don't.

[Zippyjuan]

It is for those who believe in American values. YOU don't.

What are American values? What are my beliefs? "Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness"? Liberty does not exist if it is only granted to a select few.

[Swordsmyth]

What are American values? "Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness"? Liberty does not exist if it is only granted to a select few.
You are a big government progressive, that is antithetical to American values.

[jmdrake]

This is a text book example of a slippery slope fallacy. It is an argument that suggests taking a minor action will lead to major and sometimes ludicrous consequences. Dont listen to him, asking for ID would not lead to national ID cards. We already need IDs to drive and we don't have a national ID

Are you sure we don't have a national ID card?

http://www.realnightmare.org/about/2/

https://epic.org/privacy/id_cards/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

https://www.dhs.gov/real-id

http://www.dmv.org/articles/the-real-id-act-are-you-ready-for-a-national-id/

[Zippyjuan]

You are a big government progressive, that is antithetical to American values.

How so? Examples? Are Americans only allowed to have one opinion on things? Republicans are big government. Are they anti-American?

[Zippyjuan]

Are you sure we don't have a national ID card?

http://www.realnightmare.org/about/2/

https://epic.org/privacy/id_cards/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

https://www.dhs.gov/real-id

http://www.dmv.org/articles/the-real-id-act-are-you-ready-for-a-national-id/

We need one (the argument goes) so that we can tell "them" from "us". ID's should be required for everything. "Papers please!"

[Brian4Liberty]

One argument heard by the court is that a lot of minorities in cities don't drive and thus don't have a driver's license or other photo ID. Not driving should not exclude them from the right to vote.

So that means they also can't go to bars and can't buy alcohol, cigarettes, tobacco or legal marijuana.

[Swordsmyth]

Examples?
Most of your posts.


Republicans are big government. Are they anti-American?
Yes, those that are for big government are anti-American.

[Zippyjuan]

So that means they also can't go to bars and can't buy alcohol, cigarettes, tobacco or legal marijuana.

Some of that is easier to get on the street. No ID needed- unless the police state catches up with you. Maybe we need more of a police state to be sure everyone has all the proper documents and making purchases only from authorized dealers.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

You are a big government progressive, that is antithetical to American values.



How so? Examples?








One example is your malicious posting history on this site, one that is contrary to what people here are trying to achieve.

[Brian4Liberty]

That may well be true, but I think people have always carried tokens or letters of some kind to prove they are who they say they are.

There are a lot of things people can't do without ID--bank, drive, use a credit/debit card, get a job, get on a plane, carry a gun, cross the border. Why should voting be any different?

You probably won't find any courts deciding that you can take out a loan, do banking or many of the other things you mention without an ID.

You can fly without an ID, but it means that you will have to give them far more information than is contained on your ID to verify your identity.

[jmdrake]

We need one (the argument goes) so that we can tell "them" from "us". ID's should be required for everything. "Papers please!"

+rep and you are 100% right! I was at a speech given by Pat Buchannan's sister Bay Buchannan where she specifically said "We need a national ID card to stop employers from hiring illegal immigrants." After the speech I went up to her and stated I was a Ron Paul supporter (she praised him after I said that), and that I was concerned about abuse of a national ID card by the federal government and that I thought that NAFTA was the real cause behind the immigration problem. She agreed with everything I said. Pushing the ID issue is a dangerous trap that conservatives and some libertarians may one day regret digging.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9CZ5OUet3s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0RprI5J_5k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfZhCB457Gs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq9GHL2Ncps

[jmdrake]

One example is your malicious posting history on this site, one that is contrary to what people here are trying to achieve.

One thing I'm not trying to achieve in a national ID card. Conservatives are playing a dangerous game on this one.

[Swordsmyth]

One thing I'm not trying to achieve in a national ID card. Conservatives are playing a dangerous game on this one.
We are not asking for a national ID card.

[Brian4Liberty]

Some of that is easier to get on the street. No ID needed- unless the police state catches up with you. Maybe we need more of a police state to be sure everyone has all the proper documents and making purchases only from authorized dealers.

You are such a libertarian. How was your government mandated break/vacation?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

So that means they also can't go to bars and can't buy alcohol, cigarettes, tobacco or legal marijuana.


Some of that is easier to get on the street.





Yeah, happens all the time. In fact, I'm getting ready to go to my neighbor's house to borrow a cup of sugar and buy a six pack & a carton of cigarettes.

[Zippyjuan]

http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/9718-should-a-libertarian-support-voter-id-laws


Should a libertarian support voter ID laws?

Since 2003 a number of states have passed laws requiring some sort of ID to be shown when a person goes to vote. Proponents of the laws present them as a way to stamp out voter fraud; opponents decry the laws as a way to prevent minorities or the poor from voting, as they are most likely to not have acceptable ID. The battles have waged not only in legislatures but in courthouses as well. Wisconsin’s law was just struck down by a judge and Texas’ law is being challenged by the DOJ.

For a libertarian, it seems like both sides of the argument have been a little disingenuous. Voter fraud has yet to be shown to be anywhere near as widespread as Republicans would like us to think, though this could be because it has heretofore gone undetected. And showing a form of basic ID, often provided at no cost to the voter, is a very low bar and one that is gladly accepted when doing numerous other activities - even buying alcohol or getting into a bar.

So we are left to sit outside and try to figure out which side to take. On one hand, for those libertarians who believe in voting, the integrity of elections is very important. We need to ensure that elections accurately represent the will of voters. On the other hand, though, it is important that no one is prevented from voting for illegitimate reasons. If the laws are an underhanded attempt to disenfranchise certain groups, as opponents say, they are problematic.

To me, this whole debate comes down to a very simple factor - the cost of implementation. I mean this in both the human and fiscal sense. The human cost - that is, the cost in loss of convenience and determent from voting - seems minimal. As stated above, we need ID to do many other things, and in most states Voter ID laws provide for some sort of ID at no cost to the voter. It is simply hard for me to buy that ID is an undue burden, when we consider its relative importance and infrequency.

The fiscal sense, though, is more murky. This is especially so because the extent of fraud is an unknown entity. We simply don’t have a great handle on how big the problem is. We could be, in effect, taking the proverbial hammer to a problem that simply does not warrant it. What is clear, though, is that the laws would cost the states money. In my state of Pennsylvania, cost estimates range from $4-11 million dollars. As anyone familiar with Harrisburg’s problems knows, we don’t have that money just sitting around.

So consider this particular libertarian decidedly undecided. It is a core function of government to ensure elections have integrity; but, it is also a core function to spend the taxpayer dollar wisely. Voter ID laws have to meet a high burden of proof here that the cost is worthwhile. Until that happens, I can’t jump fully on board with this movement.

[jmdrake]

We are not asking for a national ID card.

No. You're just asking that what is already a defacto national ID card be used for voting.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

One thing I'm not trying to achieve in a national ID card. Conservatives are playing a dangerous game on this one.


I agree, but Zipper John is not interested in helping you. That's not his point in posting.

[Swordsmyth]

No. You're just asking that what is already a defacto national ID card be used for voting.
No just some form of valid ID, see above where the different forms of ID are listed.

[Swordsmyth]

http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/9718-should-a-libertarian-support-voter-id-laws
Yawn.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

You are such a libertarian. How was your government mandated break/vacation?


He actually works in a store. I don't even think the government would hire him.

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/civil-liberties/national-id-card/


Paul Denounces National ID Card (December 7, 2004)
Congressman Ron Paul today denounced the national ID card provisions contained in the intelligence bill being voted on in the U.S. House of Representatives, while urging his colleagues to reject the bill and its new layers of needless bureaucracy. “National ID cards are not proper in a free society,” Paul stated. “This is America, not Soviet Russia. The federal government should never be allowed to demand papers from American citizens, and it certainly has no constitutional authority to do so.”


A National ID Bill Masquerading as Immigration Reform (February 9, 2005)
I rise in strong opposition to HR 418, the REAL ID Act. This bill purports to make us safer from terrorists who may sneak into the United States, and from other illegal immigrants. While I agree that these issues are of vital importance, this bill will do very little to make us more secure. It will not address our real vulnerabilities. It will, however, make us much less free. In reality, this bill is a Trojan horse. It pretends to offer desperately needed border control in order to stampede Americans into sacrificing what is uniquely American: our constitutionally protected liberty. What is wrong with this bill? The REAL ID Act establishes a national ID card by mandating that states include certain minimum identification standards on driver’s licenses. It contains no limits on the government’s power to impose additional standards. Indeed, it gives authority to the Secretary of Homeland Security to unilaterally add requirements as he sees fit.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

http://www.unitedliberty.org/articles/9718-should-a-libertarian-support-voter-id-laws


https://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/civil-liberties/national-id-card/


What does this have to do with your views? You're not a libertarian. You're in opposition. You have a lot of nerve quoting Ron Paul.

[oyarde]

We should have a national ID Card. Maybe some sort of tattoo on our forehead so we can tell who among us belongs and who does not?

http://supercollidertheater.weebly.com/uploads/3/6/6/1/3661625/6117208.gif

Star bellied sneetches . They look delicious .

[oyarde]

There are other state IDs issued at DMVs that one can get without knowing how to drive. Maybe the liberals would promote that instead of trying to say voter ID laws are discriminatory. This law could actually end up helping these minorities by encouraging the to get IDs

Those ID's are free in my state and an ID is required to vote and has been for a long time . It has no adverse effect on the commie minorities , those districts still vote that way so I believe all arguments to be lies because the math does not lie . The commies that did not have an ID evidently got one to continue to vote for who they thought would give them the most " free " shit . Do not be fooled by any progressives , the food stamp vote is alive and well in america and is going nowhere even if they have to id themselves and only vote once .

[Swordsmyth]

https://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/civil-liberties/national-id-card/
The STATE government is the one requiring ID to prevent voter fraud, and we do not support REAL ID.
Stop trying to muddy the waters.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

+rep and you are 100% right!


It's a sad commentary when you have to rely on someone like ZippyJuan to articulate your own views.

[jmdrake]

No just some form of valid ID, see above where the different forms of ID are listed.

The drivers license is a de facto national id card. Once the camels nose is under the tent the only form of ID that will be allowed for driving, voting, getting on a plane, or ultimately buying or selling with be some form of de facto national ID card. Trump is already trying to get all of the states to cooperate with his national voter fraud database scheme. That's where this is all ultimately headed. Again, I personally heard Bay Buchannan stump for a national ID card as a way to fight illegal immigration. You might not want to go that way, but your allies are ready to take this country down t hat road. Zippy is not wrong, in this instance, in pointing out the danger.

[Zippyjuan]

The STATE government is the one requiring ID to prevent voter fraud, and we do not support REAL ID.
Stop trying to muddy the waters.

State IDs must meet the national Real ID standard. States may still be the issuers, but they are in fact national REAL ID cards. They will also share databases.


Oct. 29, 2013 | DHS announced that phased in enforcement of the REAL ID Act will begin on Jan. 20, 2014. This announcement follows a nearly year-long period of deferred enforcement. The REAL ID Act aims to create national standards for state issued driver’s licenses and identification cards so they may be used to board commercial aircraft and access certain federal facilities.

DHS plans to implement REAL ID enforcement over four phases, with each phase consisting of two distinct deadlines. The first deadline will begin a three-month “warning” period where noncompliant IDs will still be accepted. Following this three-month period, full enforcement of the phase will begin, and IDs from noncompliant states will no longer be accepted for federal purposes as defined in the act.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/count-down-to-real-id.aspx#3

We are currently in phase three.

[jmdrake]

It's a sad commentary when you have to rely on someone like ZippyJuan to articulate your own views.

I'm not relying on him for squat. I'm relying on what I heard Bay Buchannan, Pat Buchannan's sister, say in support of a national ID card in order to fight illegal immigration. Ignore the facts at your own peril.

[jmdrake]

Those ID's are free in my state and an ID is required to vote and has been for a long time . It has no adverse effect on the commie minorities , those districts still vote that way so I believe all arguments to be lies because the math does not lie . The commies that did not have an ID evidently got one to continue to vote for who they thought would give them the most " free " $#@! .

I don't give a crap about what effect it has on voters whether they are minority or not or commie or not. I do care about the fact that Bay Buchannan, and others, are using fear over immigration to push for a national ID card. I hear this shyt with my own ears.

[Swordsmyth]

State IDs must meet the national Real ID standard. States may still be the issuers, but they are in fact national REAL ID cards.
Only DLs are required to meet REAL ID, there are other forms of ID that are accepted for voting.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I'm not relying on him for squat. I'm relying on what I heard Bay Buchannan, Pat Buchannan's sister, say in support of a national ID card in order to fight illegal immigration. Ignore the facts at your own peril.

Then why did you quote Zip? Why not just post from what you heard from Buchanan?

[Swordsmyth]

The drivers license is a de facto national id card. Once the camels nose is under the tent the only form of ID that will be allowed for driving, voting, getting on a plane, or ultimately buying or selling with be some form of de facto national ID card. Trump is already trying to get all of the states to cooperate with his national voter fraud database scheme. That's where this is all ultimately headed. Again, I personally heard Bay Buchannan stump for a national ID card as a way to fight illegal immigration. You might not want to go that way, but your allies are ready to take this country down t hat road. Zippy is not wrong, in this instance, in pointing out the danger.
Only DLs a required to meet REAL ID, there are other forms of ID that are accepted for voting.

Supporting a STATE voter ID law is separate from REAL ID, we can support one and try to repeal the other.

[Zippyjuan]

Only DLs a required to meet REAL ID, there are other forms of ID that are accepted for voting.

In Texas, other Federal government verified IDs like passports and open carry permits or military IDs are the acceptable alternatives. Other states are less strict on ID requirements. If you favor Texas's voter ID requirements, you favor REAL ID.

[Swordsmyth]

In Texas, other Federal government verified IDs like passports and open carry permits or military IDs. Other states are less strict on ID requirements. If you favor Texas's voter ID requirements, you favor REAL ID.

Under the new law, the permissible IDs remain the same as the earlier law: a state driver's license or ID card, a concealed handgun license, a U.S. passport, a military ID card, a U.S citizenship certificate or an election identification certificate.

Not all of those are REAL ID, as far as I Know only DLs are subject to REAL ID.

[Zippyjuan]

Under the new law, the permissible IDs remain the same as the earlier law: a state driver's license or ID card, a concealed handgun license, a U.S. passport, a military ID card, a U.S citizenship certificate or an election identification certificate.

Not all of those are REAL ID, as far as I Know only DLs are subject to REAL ID.

Passports- RealID.
Driver's License or ID: RealID.
Military ID: Real ID.
Handgun License: RealID.

Election ID Certificate primary ID documents acceptable: http://www.dps.texas.gov/DriverLicense/identificationrequirements.htm


Primary identity documents include:

Texas driver license or Texas identification card not expired more than 2 years
Proof of citizenship will be required if not previously established
Unexpired U.S. passport book or card
U.S. Certificate of Citizenship or Certificate of Naturalization (N-560, N-561, N-645, N-550, N-55G, N-570 or N-578)
Unexpired Department of Homeland Security or U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services document with verifiable data and identifiable photo,

Unexpired U.S. military ID card for active duty, reserve or retired personnel with identifiable photo

(Real ID Compliant).

[jmdrake]

Then why did you quote Zip? Why not just post from what you heard from Buchanan?

Because Zip brought that up in this thread and he happens to actually be right. Unlike you I have no problem with Zip when he's actually right.

[jmdrake]

Only DLs a required to meet REAL ID, there are other forms of ID that are accepted for voting.

Supporting a STATE voter ID law is separate from REAL ID, we can support one and try to repeal the other.

And how long is it going to remain strictly a state issue with Trump pushing to nationalize voter databases for the purpose of investigating voter fraud?

[Swordsmyth]

Passports- RealID. Federal so I will assume you are correct.

Driver's License: RealID. Granted already.

Military ID: Real ID. Federal so I will assume you are correct.

Handgun License: RealID. Prove it to me.

Also accepted: STATE ID card, US Citizenship Certificate, or an Election Identification Certificate. EVEN YOU DON"T CLAIM THESE ARE REAL ID.

If we don't like REAL ID(and we don't) , we should try to repeal it, it has nothing to do with STATE voter ID laws.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Because Zip brought that up in this thread...

For what purpose?

[Swordsmyth]

And how long is it going to remain strictly a state issue with Trump pushing to nationalize voter databases for the purpose of investigating voter fraud?
If and when the feds try to require a NATIONAL ID to vote then I will oppose it, if the states adopt voter ID first there will be no excuse for the feds to do it.

[Zippyjuan]

If and when the feds try to require a NATIONAL ID to vote then I will oppose it, if the states adopt voter ID first there will be no excuse for the feds to do it.

Then you should oppose states who also wish to adopt one.

[Swordsmyth]

Then you should oppose states who also wish to adopt one.
I oppose states adopting a NATIONAL ID card.

[Raginfridus]

Where is that "man on the street" video where they were asking black people if they had an ID?

Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgsAre these huwite tools serious? Anybody can catch a bus to the library, and apply for a photo ID over the web. If you don't own a photo ID, you're not supposed to have a W-4 job, and who in their right mind's selling or leasing to you w/o a credit check?


We should have a national ID Card. Maybe some sort of tattoo on our forehead so we can tell who among us belongs and who does not?

http://supercollidertheater.weebly.com/uploads/3/6/6/1/3661625/6117208.gifIf you've got a passport, then you've got a nat'l ID, but you're missing the point. All a state ID does is prove the state has documented that you are who you say you are, it doesn't broadcast to the world who you are as a person. Dr. Seuss is wrong yet again, voter ID laws aren't a slippery slope to Kristallnacht.

[Krugminator2]

Let's say Voter ID does cause fewer minorities to vote. My answer is "So What?" Voter ID is not an unreasonable infringement. In fact, it is a perfectly logical to ask people voting to prove that they are who they say they are.

The ONLY reason the left objects to this is political. They want to get as many votes as possible. There is nothing principled about their opposition to Voter ID. It is the only reason they support increased immigration from Mexico. They think that more immigrants equals more Democratic voters. No other reason.

[Ender]

One thing I'm not trying to achieve in a national ID card. Conservatives are playing a dangerous game on this one.

AMEN.

[Zippyjuan]

I oppose states adopting a NATIONAL ID card.

All state IDs must be RealID Compliant. Most have already complied and the rest are on their way. That will make every state ID a defacto national ID. Favoring the State IDs is favoring a national ID.

[Zippyjuan]

Let's say Voter ID does cause fewer minorities to vote. My answer is "So What?" Voter ID is not an unreasonable infringement. In fact, it is a perfectly logical to ask people voting to prove that they are who they say they are.

The ONLY reason the left objects to this is political. They want to get as many votes as possible. There is nothing principled about their opposition to Voter ID. It is the only reason they support increased immigration from Mexico. They think that more immigrants equals more Democratic voters. No other reason.

The claimed reason is to prevent voter fraud- yet there has not been any actual proof of any extensive voter fraud. The real intent is to try to restrict people from voting as they are legally entitled to do. Voter ID is a smoke screen.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Voter ID is a smoke screen.


You are the smokescreen. Progressives like you are for identification when it comes to rights like concealed carry. They oppose it for voting. That does nothing for liberty.

[Swordsmyth]

All state IDs must be RealID Compliant. Most have already complied and the rest are on their way. That will make every state ID a defacto national ID. Favoring the State IDs is favoring a national ID.

So we need to repeal REAL ID.

[Swordsmyth]

The claimed reason is to prevent voter fraud- yet there has not been any actual proof of any extensive voter fraud. The real intent is to try to restrict people from voting as they are legally entitled to do. Voter ID is a smoke screen.

Every time we show you voter fraud you dismiss it, and it is hard to catch voter fraud when nobody will look for it.

[Zippyjuan]

Every time we show you voter fraud you dismiss it, and it is hard to catch voter fraud when nobody will look for it.

Show us. Documented cases of voter fraud- people casting votes they were not allowed to make. (somebody signing up fake names on registration is not voter fraud unless somebody actually uses that name to vote under- dead people left on voter rolls is not voter fraud nor are names of people who moved out of the district and still had their names on the rolls).

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Show us.

"Us." LOL.

[Swordsmyth]

"Us." LOL.

I said elsewhere this zippy is possessed by John Maynard Keynes, maybe I was right?

[Swordsmyth]

Show us. Documented cases of voter fraud- people casting votes they were not allowed to make. (somebody signing up fake names on registration is not voter fraud unless somebody actually uses that name to vote under- dead people left on voter rolls is not voter fraud nor are names of people who moved out of the district and still had their names on the rolls).
We have, you dismissed them (if you are still the same zippy), I don't have to do it again.

And I'm sure people register fraudulently NOT to vote. Sarc

[Zippyjuan]

I said elsewhere this zippy is possessed by John Maynard Keynes, maybe I was right?


Thank you for that extensive list of voter fraud cases. I am very impressed!

https://www.minnpost.com/sites/default/files/LittleVoterFraud640.png

https://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2012/08/cases-voter-id-election-fraud-found-virtually-non-existent

[Swordsmyth]

Thank you for that extensive list of voter fraud cases. I am very impressed!

https://www.minnpost.com/sites/default/files/LittleVoterFraud640.png

https://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2012/08/cases-voter-id-election-fraud-found-virtually-non-existent

He can't find any voter fraud either:

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fdjhill2013.files.wordpress.com%2F 2014%2F07%2Fsee-no-evil-know-no-evil.jpg&f=1

[Zippyjuan]

How bad was it in Texas who most recently had their voter ID law struck down?

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/10/18/amid-talk-of-rigged-election-experts-say-fraud-is-rare/


In a decision finding Texas’ photo ID law was discriminatory, a federal appeals court noted there were two convictions related to in-person voter fraud out of 20 million votes cast in the decade before the law was enacted.

[Krugminator2]

The claimed reason is to prevent voter fraud- yet there has not been any actual proof of any extensive voter fraud. The real intent is to try to restrict people from voting as they are legally entitled to do. Voter ID is a smoke screen.

I am not even going to argue that point. It actually doesn't matter whether it is the case or not. You need a picture ID to buy alcohol, get a plane, all sorts of things. Especially when elections can be close, asking for a photo ID is logical.

It is insane not to have a photo ID to vote. The only reason anyone has any emotion in opposition is because they want Democrats to win. There is no other reason.

[Krugminator2]

Thank you for that extensive list of voter fraud cases. I am very impressed!

https://www.minnpost.com/sites/default/files/LittleVoterFraud640.png

https://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2012/08/cases-voter-id-election-fraud-found-virtually-non-existent

Records: Too many votes in 37% of Detroit’s precincts http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/records-many-votes-detroits-precincts/95363314/



It isn't hard to find examples in general. Voter fraud on the individual level would be hard. Especially in a state like California with so many illegal aliens, why not require a photo ID with a magnetic strip that ensures that only people with a valid license and considered citizens by the state vote? The answer is there isn't a logical reason. I can't even remotely understand an objection to this.

[Zippyjuan]

I am not even going to argue that point. It actually doesn't matter whether it is the case or not. You need a picture ID to buy alcohol, get a plane, all sorts of things. Especially when elections can be close, asking for a photo ID is logical.

It is insane not to have a photo ID to vote. The only reason anyone has any emotion in opposition is because they want Democrats to win. There is no other reason.

Democrats don't like it because it favors them. Republicans like it because it favors them. It has nothing to do with voter fraud.

[Zippyjuan]

Records: Too many votes in 37% of Detroit’s precincts http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/records-many-votes-detroits-precincts/95363314/



It isn't hard to find examples in general. Voter fraud on the individual level would be hard. Especially in a state like California with so many illegal aliens, why not require a photo ID with a magnetic strip that ensures that only people with a valid license and considered citizens by the state vote? The answer is there isn't a logical reason. I can't even remotely understand an objection to this.

As the link noted,


Last week, Baxter told The News 87 optical scanners broke on Election Day. He said many jammed when voters tried repeatedly to stuff single ballots into scanners, which can result in erroneous vote counts if poll workers don’t adjust counters.

[Krugminator2]

Democrats don't like it because it favors them. Republicans like it because it favors them. It has nothing to do with voter fraud.

That is completely true. The difference is Republicans have a valid reason to support voter ID. Requiring an ID makes it less likely a non-citizen will vote, which in and of itself is a valid reason to require ID. It doesn't even matter if you can't easily prove cases of fraud. The reality is the burden isn't to prove to that it is happens. It of course is happening. It can't not be happening when you have 55 million people voting. The system is many states is antiquated.

If asked a rational person who had no idea how voter ID would sway election, almost no one would say it is unreasonable. It would be 95% of rational people in support of voter ID.

[Zippyjuan]

More and more places are also going to "vote by mail" which cannot use any ID beyond your registration (even with less strict voter ID laws, your ID is still verified before you are put on the voter rolls).

[Krugminator2]

As the link noted,

Yeah? I read it when it happened. That quote doesn't change anything.

[Zippyjuan]

Yeah? I read it when it happened. That quote doesn't change anything.

http://time.com/4599886/detroit-voting-machine-failures-were-widespread-on-election-day/


Detroit Voting Machine Failures Were Widespread on Election Day

More than 80 voting machines in Detroit malfunctioned on Election Day, officials say, resulting in ballot discrepancies in 59% of precincts that raise questions about the reliability of future election results in a city dominated by Democratic and minority voters.

"This is not the first time," adds Daniel Baxter, elections director for the city. "We've had this problem in nearly every election that we administer in the city of Detroit."

Baxter says that the machines were tested for accuracy before election day in accordance with state and federal guidelines, but that sometimes the machines "hit up against each other and malfunction" as they're being transported to the precincts.

The machines were optical scanners, meaning they registered and counted the votes marked on paper ballots. Many of the machines jammed over the course of election day, perhaps because Michigan had a two-page ballot this year, which meant that paper ballots were collected but inconsistently recorded by the machines. Michigan does not have early voting, so any mechanical malfunction would necessarily happen on election day, since that's the only day the machines are used. That's why so many machines malfunctioned at the same time. "You don't expect a laptop to last 10 years, and you shouldn't expect a voting machines to last 10 years," says Detroit City Clerk Janice Winfrey.



Mechanical difficulties- not voter fraud.

[Swordsmyth]

More and more places are also going to "vote by mail" which cannot use any ID beyond your registration (even with less strict voter ID laws, your ID is still verified before you are put on the voter rolls).
An excellent reason to get rid of vote by mail.

[Swordsmyth]

http://time.com/4599886/detroit-voting-machine-failures-were-widespread-on-election-day/



Mechanical difficulties- not voter fraud.


SURE I BELIEVE IT

[Krugminator2]

http://time.com/4599886/detroit-voting-machine-failures-were-widespread-on-election-day/


It is weird that is an error that happens election after election that overcounts for Democrats doesn't get corrected. I wonder why that is. For some reason I think if it undercounted votes for Democrats, the problem would immediately be fixed.

[Zippyjuan]

An excellent reason to get rid of vote by mail.

You still have to sign the ballot envelope and the signatures are verified.

[Zippyjuan]

It is weird that is an error that happens election after election that overcounts for Democrats doesn't get corrected. I wonder why that is. For some reason I think if it undercounted votes for Democrats, the problem would immediately be fixed.

Of course Detroit doesn't exactly have tons of money to spend on the latest equipment.

There are other ways to restrict voting by the opposite party. Some places simply shut down precincts in an effort to restrict voting- forcing people to either wait in super long lines or not vote at all.

https://www.thenation.com/article/there-are-868-fewer-places-to-vote-in-2016-because-the-supreme-court-gutted-the-voting-rights-act/


There Are 868 Fewer Places to Vote in 2016 Because the Supreme Court Gutted the Voting Rights Act

https://www.thenation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/GreatPollClosureMap.jpg

When Aracely Calderon, a naturalized US citizen from Guatemala, went to vote in downtown Phoenix just before the polls closed in Arizona’s March 22 presidential primary, there were more than 700 people in a line stretching four city blocks. She waited in line for five hours, becoming the last voter in the state to cast a ballot at 12:12 am. “I’m here to exercise my right to vote,” she said shortly before midnight, explaining why she stayed in line. Others left without voting because they didn’t have four or five hours to spare.

The lines were so long because Republican election officials in Phoenix’s Maricopa County, the largest in the state, reduced the number of polling places by 70 percent from 2012 to 2016, from 200 to just 60—one polling place per 21,000 registered voters. Previously, Maricopa County would have needed federal approval to reduce the number of polling sites, because Arizona was one of 16 states where jurisdictions with a long history of discrimination had to submit their voting changes under Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act. This part of the VRA blocked 3,000 discriminatory voting changes from 1965 to 2013. That changed when the Supreme Court gutted the law in the June 2013 Shelby County v. Holder decision.

The polling place reductions in Maricopa County were a glaring example of a disturbing trend. The Leadership Conference for Civil Rights surveyed 381 of the 800 counties previously covered by Section 5 where polling place information was available in 2012 or 2014 and found there are 868 fewer places to cast a ballot in 2016 in these areas. “Out of the 381 counties in our study, 165 of them—43 percent—have reduced voting locations,” says the important new report.

While new statewide voting restrictions like voter-ID laws and cuts to early voting in places like Texas and North Carolina have received national attention, the polling place closures could have as big of an impact in 2016—the first presidential election in 50 years without the full protections of the VRA.

Arizona, the poster child for voting problems in the primary, closed the highest percentage of polling places in the study. “Almost every county in the state reduced polling places in advance of the 2016 election and almost every county closed polling places on a massive scale, resulting in 212 fewer polling places,” says the report (emphasis in original). Tucson’s Pima County—the second largest in the state, which is 35 percent Latino and leans Democratic—“is the nation’s biggest closer of polling places,” from 280 in 2012 to 218 in 2016.

[Cleaner44]

By this logic, laws requiring me to show ID when purchasing firearms have a discriminatory intent and should be abolished.

[Swordsmyth]

You still have to sign the ballot envelope and the signatures are verified.

SURE they are.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

.


By this logic, laws requiring me to show ID when purchasing firearms have a discriminatory intent and should be abolished.


ZippyJuan,

Are you for or opposed to current state laws requiring people to get state documentation when carrying a concealed firearm?

[Zippyjuan]

ZippyJuan,

Are you for or opposed to current state laws requiring people to get state documentation when carrying a concealed firearm?

I do think that ID should be required for certain things like carrying a concealed weapon or operating a motor vehicle. Those misused can be deadly. Voting is rarely deadly (though the people voted for can cause deaths to occur).

[Swordsmyth]

I do think that ID should be required for certain things like carrying a concealed weapon or operating a motor vehicle. Those misused can be deadly. Voting is rarely deadly (though the people voted for can cause deaths to occur).

The power to vote is a power to kill, rob and destroy like no other, you are a fool or a hypocrite.
Unlike voting foreigners and non-citizens are allowed to possess and use weapons, voting must require ID.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I do think that ID should be required for certain things like carrying a concealed weapon or operating a motor vehicle.


Wouldn't that be discriminatory based on what you said here?:



One argument heard by the court is that a lot of minorities in cities don't drive and thus don't have a driver's license or other photo ID. Not driving should not exclude them from the right to vote.


A person needs ID and (often) fingerprints, and an FBI background check to get a concealed carry.

[Zippyjuan]

Wouldn't that be discriminatory based on what you said here?:





A person needs ID and (often) fingerprints, and an FBI background check to get a concealed carry.

Are you suggesting all people who wish to vote should do that as well?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Are you suggesting all people who wish to vote should do that as well?

I can certainly answer that after your deflection from my question. Here it is again:


Wouldn't that be discriminatory based on what you said here?:

[Raginfridus]

Of course Detroit doesn't exactly have tons of money to spend on the latest equipment.So where did all that income tax money go, and how were voters counted before the equipment they have now? If a certain party, the ones who've been greasing urban politics for 50+ years, are amok with embarrassing financial and integrity issues, that their own constituents have fled in the tens of percent, then that political machine deserves to fail.

[Zippyjuan]

So where did all that income tax money go, and how were voters counted before the equipment they have now? If a certain party, the ones who've been greasing urban politics for 50+ years, are amok with embarrassing financial and integrity issues, that their own constituents have fled in the tens of percent, then that political machine deserves to fail.

Detroit has been a mess for a long time.

[Swordsmyth]

Detroit has been a mess for a long time.
Detroit has been run by demoncrats for a long time.

[Zippyjuan]

Detroit has been run by demoncrats for a long time.

Their decline started even before they took over. If you want to go that route, the poorest states tend to vote Republican. But you can find rich and poor areas which are run by both parties.

[Swordsmyth]

Their decline started even before they took over. If you want to go that route, the poorest states tend to vote Republican. But you can find rich and poor areas which are run by both parties.

Poor is not the same thing as "a mess".

And yes I know Republicans can be bad but Demoncrats always are.

[Raginfridus]

Their decline started even before they took over. If you want to go that route, the poorest states tend to vote Republican. But you can find rich and poor areas which are run by both parties.Ah, but you know if that's true, the Democrats were elected to reverse the decline, not to install a fiefdom and accelerate the plunder. State and city politics are categorically different, I'm not taking the bait.

[helmuth_hubener]

The country isn't for any single group- it is for all.

Ha, ha, ha, ha! Keep telling yourself that, Skippy.

We are going to kick you out. No hard feelings. No emotion at all, actually. We just are. Or maybe you will just be shot in the street in the coming conflagration. Either way, you do not belong, and the day is fast approaching when the real Americans will just no longer be willing to tolerate the contemptible fake Americans such as yourself.

So...enjoy it while you can!

[Zippyjuan]

Ha, ha, ha, ha! Keep telling yourself that, Skippy.

We are going to kick you out. No hard feelings. No emotion at all, actually. We just are. Or maybe you will just be shot in the street in the coming conflagration. Either way, you do not belong, and the day is fast approaching when the real Americans will just no longer be willing to tolerate the contemptible fake Americans such as yourself.

So...enjoy it while you can!

Is it because of my name? Not American enough? Are you a name-ist? How can you be sure you are on the "let him stay" list?

[helmuth_hubener]

Is it because of my name? Not American enough?
Don't worry. You still have time to escape. Mexico is a big place, with much to offer people like you.

[Zippyjuan]

Don't worry. You still have time to escape. Mexico is a big place, with much to offer people like you.

People like me? Humans?

[Swordsmyth]

People like me? Humans?

Communists.

[Zippyjuan]

Communists.

Commies is SOOO 1950's.

[Krugminator2]

Their decline started even before they took over. If you want to go that route, the poorest states tend to vote Republican. But you can find rich and poor areas which are run by both parties.

The last Republican mayor of Detroit was elected in 1957. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Miriani. I think it is pretty safe to say 98% of the problems with Detroit are attributable to Democratic policies on the Federal and Local levels.

The richest states when you adjust of cost of living also tend to vote Republican. Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa are red states. Only Connecticut and Massachusetts are upper income liberal states. BTW, California has an almost identical adjusted per capita GDP to Georgia and Alabama, which I assume were the kinds of states you were referring to as poor states. The per capita income adjusted for PPP of California is only $1000 more than Kentucky and $2000 more than Mississippi. https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/rpp/2014/pdf/rpp0414.pdf

[Swordsmyth]

Commies is SOOO 1950's.
Yes, you and the Demoncrats are WAY behind the times.

[Zippyjuan]

Yes, you and the Demoncrats are WAY behind the times.

Trump wants to bring things back to the 1950s so I get your reference point.

[Swordsmyth]

Trump wants to bring things back to the 1950s so I get your reference point.
I have no idea where Dump wants to take us, but I am not on his team, I want to take us to the glorious future envisioned by the founding fathers.

[Zippyjuan]

I have no idea where Dump wants to take us, but I am not on his team, I want to take us to the glorious future envisioned by the founding fathers.

And I am neither Democrat nor communist but carry on.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

And I am neither Democrat nor communist but carry on.

So voting for Boxer, Feinstein, Obama, Peters, Gore, Kerry, Clinton, Dukakis, Mondale, and Carter doesn't make you a Democrat? Guess you identify as independent.

[Zippyjuan]

So voting for Boxer, Feinstein, Obama, Peters, Gore, Kerry, Clinton, Dukakis, Mondale, and Carter doesn't make you a Democrat? Guess you identify as independent.

At least a dozen times each. (Who is Peters?) Feinstein and Boxer aren't even in my district so only six times each for them.

I voted Gary Johnson.

[Danke]

And I am neither Democrat nor communist but carry on.




I voted Gary Johnson.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5dG4y4CUZc

[Zippyjuan]

Glad I could make your day! :D

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

At least a dozen times each. (Who is Peters?) Feinstein and Boxer aren't even in my district so only six times each for them.

I voted Gary Johnson.


Feinstein and Boxer are Cali senators, so district does not apply. How could you not know this? Peters is the San Diego congressman. How could you not know this either? You have said many times you live in S Diego. Are you a substitute for Zip? Or are you really desperate?

You voted Obama in 2008 and 2012, right?

[r3volution 3.0]

I'd be in favor of a special federal ID being required for voting, provided that no such IDs are issued, to anyone.

Short of that, I don't really care.

This issue is mostly just a proxy for larger culture war nonsense, on both sides.

[Swordsmyth]

Feinstein and Boxer are Cali senators, so district does not apply. How could you not know this? Peters is the San Diego congressman. How could you not know this either? You have said many times you live in S Diego. Are you a substitute for Zip? Or are you really desperate?

You voted Obama in 2008 and 2012, right?

I don't think this zippy lives in the US.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I don't think this zippy lives in the US.


He lives in San Diego. It's funny though because Zip did three uncharacteristic things in this thread. He misspelled the word "pursuit." He revealed a political view (concealed carry).

He also blew the thing about Feinstein and Boxer. He misleads, but he usually does not say anything that dumb.

[Swordsmyth]

He lives in San Diego. It's funny though because Zip did three uncharacteristic things in this thread. He misspelled the word "pursuit." He revealed a political view (concealed carry).

He also blew the thing about Feinstein and Boxer. He misleads, but he usually does not say anything that dumb.

Which is why this is probably not the old zippy.

[jmdrake]

For what purpose?

Truth is truth regardless of the purpose it is brought up. If a building is truly on fire then the person who tells you its on fire should be listened to even if the only reason they are telling you is because they want to clear the building. You don't trust Zippy. I don't trust most of the trumpalumpas. Sometimes Zippy tells the truth. Sometimes trumpalumpas tell the truth. To close your eyes to truth because you don't like the source is to be willfully ignorant. I refuse to be willfully ignorant. If you choose willful ignorance that's your problem.

[jmdrake]

Under the new law, the permissible IDs remain the same as the earlier law: a state driver's license or ID card, a concealed handgun license, a U.S. passport, a military ID card, a U.S citizenship certificate or an election identification certificate.

Not all of those are REAL ID, as far as I Know only DLs are subject to REAL ID.

LOL. There are laws being proposed by Republicans that will federalize handgun licenses as well. Here's one.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/lawmakers-let-tsa-accept-concealed-carry-permits-as-id-at-airports/article/2576545

Sounds great right? Let the TSA accept concealed carry permits as ID at airports. Here's the catch. For that to happen, the handgun licenses will ultimately have to conform to RealID (national ID card). Texas handgun licenses are already RealID! Here are the basics for RealID.

The REAL ID Act sets forth new federally mandated requirements for all state driver’s licenses and ID cards. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has set standards not entirely dissimilar from the requirements already in place for most states throughout the country. On each ID, the following information must be present:

Full legal name
Residential address
Birth date
Gender
Driver’s license/identification card number
Digital front-facing photograph
Signature

Driver’s licenses and IDs must now also include a common barcode and security devices to prevent any tampering with or counterfeiting of the card, and must display a star in the upper right-hand corner, signifying that your identification has been approved by the TSA and your identity has been verified. There are also new requirements put in place to obtain an ID or license; all applicants must present the following documents during the application process:
A photo ID, or non-photo ID that contains the applicant’s full legal name and birth date
Valid birth certificate
Social Security number
Proof of legal U.S. citizenship, OR proof of lawful admittance into or temporary residence within the U.S.

Lastly, each state must also agree to share its database of licensed citizens and drivers with all other states, including every piece of data on the cards themselves (name, address, birth date, etc.), along with all driving records and driver histories of everyone licensed to drive in the state.

Here is a Texas concealed carry license.

http://pointblanksg.com/wp-content/uploads/2016-02-01LTCLicense.jpg

Here is the Texas drivers license front and back.

http://www.agavedesign.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/driverslicense1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--GjOvP26PTM/USvkoBWHiCI/AAAAAAAAAa4/vr0TRee0BXQ/s1600/DriversLicense.png

Note that both the Texas drivers license and the Texas handgun carry license are already RealID!

You don't understand how government inertia works. It's simply easier to make everything the same. If the government is going to set up drivers licenses to be "RealID compliant", why the hell would it go out of its way to make concealed carry licenses or any other license it issues not RealID compliant? Short answer? It wouldn't! You are being suckered.

I remember the day when drivers licenses didn't have photos on them. I remember the day when social security cards said on them "These cannot be used as identification." Now you have to present a social security card to get a RealID compliant machine readable ID with your picture on it. And the problem with pushing for government issued photo ID for voting is that's just one more sphere where we're being told we have to have a government issued RealID! I hear the jackass talk show host pundits say "Well you have to have an ID to get on a plane so why not for voting?" I shouldn't have to have an ID to get on a plane! 9/11 didn't happen because of a lack of photo ID. Hell, the CIA under Bush was waving terrorists into the country and that has been admitted! The Obama administration purposefully let the underwear bomber on the plane and that has been admitted!

Here is the bottom line. The government is using fear to take over more and more of our lives. It doesn't matter if it's fear over "refer madness" or fear over terrorism or fear over illegal immigrants taking jobs or committing crimes or fear over liberal block voting taking away liberty, when conservatives are just as anti liberty! "Hey! Let's have more gubmit control to protect us from gubmit control!" That's crazy as hell!

[jmdrake]

If and when the feds try to require a NATIONAL ID to vote then I will oppose it, if the states adopt voter ID first there will be no excuse for the feds to do it.

But the photo IDs that the states are adopting, including the Texas gun license, are all RealID compliant and are defacto national ID so you're a little late.

[Ender]

But the photo IDs that the states are adopting, including the Texas gun license, are all RealID compliant and are defacto national ID so you're a little late.

Thank you! And I'd rep you if I could!

[helmuth_hubener]

Truth is truth regardless of the purpose it is brought up.

But the purposes matter, too!

Reality, like, matters and junk!

Again, the manic third-worldist freaks, despite their damaged and addled brains, are much, much smarter than us, in that:

they actually care about and pay attention to results!

If voter ID laws reduced the vote tallies of the Pathetic Loser Outsider party, do you think they'd be opposing it in any way? Would they be calling it "meaningless swear-word!" then?

No, of course not.

As the right, we would then be inclined to shout, "Hypocrites! Hypocrites!" and painstakingly document the contradictions in their intellectual position. But that misses the whole point. It's not an intellectual position. It's not "believing in a pure and self-consistent truth for its own sake and for its own beauty." It's propaganda. And its purpose is not to communicate truth directly, it is:

To WIN.

So actually, in a sense -- in a more sophisticated sense! -- it is an intellectual position. It is harnessing the intellect in the pursuit of beauty, not the beauty of philosophical perfection (they already think they have that, in the form of Marx or Galbraith or Rawls... or maybe Colbert, Dickens, and Rowling) but the beauty of implementation. For imaginary ideas can be beautiful inhabiting our imaginations, but how much more beautiful -- a beauty incomparably greater -- when that idea leaps from the page, escapes the prison of imagination, and becomes tangible. Actual. Real. Our enemies are willing to use whatever tools, whatever weapons they can find at hand, in order to make their vision happen, in order to cause their world-view to win.

So, let's apply that attitude. Let's look at reality. Is requiring people to show ID to vote going to be oppressing anyone? It is greatly, or even minorly, increasing the amount of Evil Government Oppression in the world?

Answer: obviously not.

It doesn't matter about REAL ID or whatever. Irrelevant. I hate REAL ID as much or more as you, JM. But it's just not relevant to this issue. There exist no actual human beings who currently do not have a REAL ID-compliant ID and who would go out and get one due to requiring people to show ID to vote, and who thus would become more tracked and oppressed.

And on the other hand, this hurts the left (our enemies) and helps the right (of which we are a part).

• Helps us
• Is not immoral
• Has no bad side effects in real life

What am I missing? How does this not stack up to a very, trivially-easy conclusion?

[euphemia]

Their decline started even before they took over. If you want to go that route, the poorest states tend to vote Republican. But you can find rich and poor areas which are run by both parties.

They tend to vote Republican to some degree, but some of the most liberal politicians are from the South. Including Al Gore Sr and Jr.

The Southern states are the ones who were completely destroyed by northern liberals. Slash and burn, if you will. A way of life was forcibly taken away. The resulting poverty will never go away.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Truth is truth regardless of the purpose it is brought up. If a building is truly on fire then the person who tells you its on fire should be listened to even if the only reason they are telling you is because they want to clear the building. You don't trust Zippy. I don't trust most of the trumpalumpas. Sometimes Zippy tells the truth. Sometimes trumpalumpas tell the truth. To close your eyes to truth because you don't like the source is to be willfully ignorant. I refuse to be willfully ignorant. If you choose willful ignorance that's your problem.


Your post says otherwise. The person you trust set the fire.

[jmdrake]

Your post says otherwise. The person you trust set the fire.

Make all of the snarky stupid comments you want, but you're just showing your ass. In this thread, thanks in part to Zippy, I was able to point out to your side that the Texas carry permits are already RealID compliant.

[jmdrake]

But the purposes matter, too!

In this case one of the purposes of the republicans pushing voter ID laws is to continue to push for adoption of a national ID card. So yes, purposes matter. The whole "But more liberals will vote against us...blah..blah...blah..." is just a red herring to get you to go along with your own destruction.


t doesn't matter about REAL ID or whatever. Irrelevant. I hate REAL ID as much or more as you, JM. But it's just not relevant to this issue. There exist no actual human beings who currently do not have a REAL ID-compliant ID and who would go out and get one due to requiring people to show ID to vote, and who thus would become more tracked and oppressed.

Real ID ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY FVCKING MATTERS! It's the end game dude. And Republicans are on the front lines pushing Real ID! I know this because it was a republican congresswoman in my home state that drafted the legislation! A republican president came up with the freaking TSA! If you think that protecting republican politicians from some "left wing voter" bogeyman is this issue of the day, then we've already lost. Again REPUBLICAN STEVE BANNON PUSHED FOR HIGHER TAX RATES AND A BIGGER STIMULUS PACKAGE THAN DID LIBERAL DEMOCRAT OBAMA!

And guess what happened after Zippy got this thread talking about RealID? Another republican lie was exposed! That was the lie that the other forms of ID being proposed for voting are not "RealID compliant." It turns out that they are. Things are worse than we imagined on the RealID front, but all you want to talk about is the fake issue of voting. We didn't get Hillary Clinton? Yippie! We got Donald freaking Trump. Screwed either way. If this movement is going to continue to ignore principles for the sake of parroting GOP talking points, and get upset when someone points out the dangers of the GOP talking points, then this movement isn't worth spit anymore.

[jmdrake]

LOL. There are laws being proposed by Republicans that will federalize handgun licenses as well. Here's one.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/lawmakers-let-tsa-accept-concealed-carry-permits-as-id-at-airports/article/2576545

Sounds great right? Let the TSA accept concealed carry permits as ID at airports. Here's the catch. For that to happen, the handgun licenses will ultimately have to conform to RealID (national ID card). Texas handgun licenses are already RealID! Here are the basics for RealID.

The REAL ID Act sets forth new federally mandated requirements for all state driver’s licenses and ID cards. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has set standards not entirely dissimilar from the requirements already in place for most states throughout the country. On each ID, the following information must be present:

Full legal name
Residential address
Birth date
Gender
Driver’s license/identification card number
Digital front-facing photograph
Signature

Driver’s licenses and IDs must now also include a common barcode and security devices to prevent any tampering with or counterfeiting of the card, and must display a star in the upper right-hand corner, signifying that your identification has been approved by the TSA and your identity has been verified. There are also new requirements put in place to obtain an ID or license; all applicants must present the following documents during the application process:
A photo ID, or non-photo ID that contains the applicant’s full legal name and birth date
Valid birth certificate
Social Security number
Proof of legal U.S. citizenship, OR proof of lawful admittance into or temporary residence within the U.S.

Lastly, each state must also agree to share its database of licensed citizens and drivers with all other states, including every piece of data on the cards themselves (name, address, birth date, etc.), along with all driving records and driver histories of everyone licensed to drive in the state.

Here is a Texas concealed carry license.

http://pointblanksg.com/wp-content/uploads/2016-02-01LTCLicense.jpg

Here is the Texas drivers license front and back.

http://www.agavedesign.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/driverslicense1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--GjOvP26PTM/USvkoBWHiCI/AAAAAAAAAa4/vr0TRee0BXQ/s1600/DriversLicense.png

Note that both the Texas drivers license and the Texas handgun carry license are already RealID!

You don't understand how government inertia works. It's simply easier to make everything the same. If the government is going to set up drivers licenses to be "RealID compliant", why the hell would it go out of its way to make concealed carry licenses or any other license it issues not RealID compliant? Short answer? It wouldn't! You are being suckered.

I remember the day when drivers licenses didn't have photos on them. I remember the day when social security cards said on them "These cannot be used as identification." Now you have to present a social security card to get a RealID compliant machine readable ID with your picture on it. And the problem with pushing for government issued photo ID for voting is that's just one more sphere where we're being told we have to have a government issued RealID! I hear the jackass talk show host pundits say "Well you have to have an ID to get on a plane so why not for voting?" I shouldn't have to have an ID to get on a plane! 9/11 didn't happen because of a lack of photo ID. Hell, the CIA under Bush was waving terrorists into the country and that has been admitted! The Obama administration purposefully let the underwear bomber on the plane and that has been admitted!

Here is the bottom line. The government is using fear to take over more and more of our lives. It doesn't matter if it's fear over "refer madness" or fear over terrorism or fear over illegal immigrants taking jobs or committing crimes or fear over liberal block voting taking away liberty, when conservatives are just as anti liberty! "Hey! Let's have more gubmit control to protect us from gubmit control!" That's crazy as hell!

Notice that nobody can actually rebut ^this.

[Ender]

In this case one of the purposes of the republicans pushing voter ID laws is to continue to push for adoption of a national ID card. So yes, purposes matter. The whole "But more liberals will vote against us...blah..blah...blah..." is just a red herring to get you to go along with your own destruction.



Real ID ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY FVCKING MATTERS! It's the end game dude. And Republicans are on the front lines pushing Real ID! I know this because it was a republican congresswoman in my home state that drafted the legislation! A republican president came up with the freaking TSA! If you think that protecting republican politicians from some "left wing voter" bogeyman is this issue of the day, then we've already lost. Again REPUBLICAN STEVE BANNON PUSHED FOR HIGHER TAX RATES AND A BIGGER STIMULUS PACKAGE THAN DID LIBERAL DEMOCRAT OBAMA!

And guess what happened after Zippy got this thread talking about RealID? Another republican lie was exposed! That was the lie that the other forms of ID being proposed for voting are not "RealID compliant." It turns out that they are. Things are worse than we imagined on the RealID front, but all you want to talk about is the fake issue of voting. We didn't get Hillary Clinton? Yippie! We got Donald freaking Trump. Screwed either way. If this movement is going to continue to ignore principles for the sake of parroting GOP talking points, and get upset when someone points out the dangers of the GOP talking points, then this movement isn't worth spit anymore.

Wish I could rep you some more. :cool:

[Swordsmyth]

Voter ID is good, REAL ID is bad, support the first and get rid of the second.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Make all of the snarky stupid comments you want, but you're just showing your ass. In this thread, thanks in part to Zippy, I was able to point out to your side that the Texas carry permits are already RealID compliant.


It's a sad commentary when you rely on paid progressives to articulate your views. I'm actually against all of this, but I don't foolishly and weakly seek help from people with bad intent.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Notice that nobody can actually rebut ^this.


You're ready for the high school debate club. You and your coach Zip get a trophy. YaY!

[Danke]

Notice that nobody can actually rebut ^this.

I can, those ladies are using expired ID, so no good.

[helmuth_hubener]

Real ID [b]ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY [etc., etc. ET CETERA ALREADY!].... JM, again, I'm with you. I had an anti-REAL ID badge on my web site back in the 90s or whenever it was that it actually mattered. Whenever it Was. Note. That time is not now. That boat has long sailed. And even then, it clearly didn't matter (us all putting up the badges, I mean), because what exactly did that accomplish?

Hmm?

I care about results. I care about reality. So again, to think about this very practically:

I hate REAL ID as much or more as you, JM. But it's just not relevant to this issue. There exist no actual human beings who currently do not have a REAL ID-compliant ID and who would go out and get one due to requiring people to show ID to vote, and who thus would become more tracked and oppressed.

No real, actual people are getting more really, actually oppressed due to the requirement that people wanting to vote show an ID. There is no real, actual oppression increasing. So.... it's hard to make a case about how awful and oppressive it would be. Eh? That's my only point. That's reality's only point.

And reality actually matters. I'm on his side.

Having some sort of check in place like showing ID is an unbelievable rudimentary anti-fraud measure. If you don't even do that, you can, like, in no way even pretend to be pretending to care about the integrity of your election process. In no way whatsoever. It has zero credibility.

Again, this is reality. Reality has to have some bearing. It would be lovely if we didn't have to worry about any fraudulent activity in connection with elections ever.

But I still Remember Oklahoma. Remember Nevada. Remember. Never Forget.

And yes, that was Republicans cheating and doing the fraud. But let me tell you another tough truth about reality: the Republicans are better than the Democrats. Not the officials -- the logic of the system abhors any decent people from achieving any power. Holding to any right-wing principle in the system only weakens you and makes you powerless and pathetic. Whereas those in the Pathetic Outsider Loser Party who will compromise and be more or less leftist will out-compete the more conservative ones every time. Thus Cthulu always swims left. Anyway, back off tangent: not the officials. But the people. The normal, everyday people. The people who vote Republican actually are conservative, much more conservative than the ones voting Democrat, and that makes them better. Period. They are our allies. Libertarianism is a right-wing movement.

That is reality. That is what I've come to figure out. It's taken years.

If I am wrong in my conclusions, please point out the error(s). Thanks.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

What is "Real" ID anyway? As opposed to fake ID? Dumb terminology.

There has to be a way to identify people who vote. If it's some small deal, then you say, "Yeah, I know Jim, Barb, Mike, Tom, Bill, Jane, and Dave by face. They're cool." You've identified 7 people. If some election is larger, then someone could walk in the same polling places multiple times per day. So, you bring in a bill and sign your name in some places. Not as detailed as some forms of identification, but it's still technically ID.

I don't favor anything more extensive because I don't see any substantial problems. But, I will be open to people who have actually run polling places.

So, it's really a matter of degree in your life activities:


Do you have a driver license?
Do you have a social security card?
Have you taken a commercial flight in the past 20 years or so?


If so, then you've consented to be identified by government. Yeah, it's fun to pretend your totally under the radar, live "off the grid," and other James Bond activities, but someone is going to identify you one way or another.

**************


There is however, a difference between activities. A previous poster voiced support for identifying concealed carriers. This is not the same as voting. You do not need to identify people walking around carried concealed the same way you need to somehow identify people walking into a polling place.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

"Voter Identification Laws in Effect in 2017"
(Note that ND and AR changed since the release of this map.)




http://www.billtrack50.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Screen-Shot-2017-05-17-at-5.20.13-PM.png





http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I've spent some time in the Philippines. Votes there are literally bought and sold.

Some dude in a truck will drive around the barangay. He'll pay some sap a few pesos to vote for candidate X. And if you take the money, then you'd better vote for candidate X.

[Swordsmyth]

What is "Real" ID anyway? As opposed to fake ID? Dumb terminology.

There has to be a way to identify people who vote. If it's some small deal, then you say, "Yeah, I know Jim, Barb, Mike, Tom, Bill, Jane, and Dave by face. They're cool." You've identified 7 people. If some election is larger, then someone could walk in the same polling places multiple times per day. So, you bring in a bill and sign your name in some places. Not as detailed as some forms of identification, but it's still technically ID.

I don't favor anything more extensive because I don't see any substantial problems. But, I will be open to people who have actually run polling places.

So, it's really a matter of degree in your life activities:


Do you have a driver license?
Do you have a social security card?
Have you taken a commercial flight in the past 20 years or so?


If so, then you've consented to be identified by government. Yeah, it's fun to pretend your totally under the radar, live "off the grid," and other James Bond activities, but someone is going to identify you one way or another.

**************


There is however, a difference between activities. A previous poster voiced support for identifying concealed carriers. This is not the same as voting. You do not need to identify people walking around carried concealed the same way you need to somehow identify people walking into a polling place.

The biggest problem would be people going to different precincts and voting once at each as different phony identities.