PDA

View Full Version : Privatize the Public Monuments




Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 07:09 AM
08/17/2017
Ryan McMaken

When I was a student at the University of Colorado, I regularly walked by the Dalton Trumbo memorial fountain which was named after the communist Stalin-sympathizing novelist and screenwriter.

Once upon a time, the fountain had been simply known as "the fountain," but around 25 years ago, it was unnecessarily renamed after a controversial person.

The reason for the renaming was the same as with any memorial or monument designed to honor a person or idea — to create an emotional connection and familiarity with the person or idea connected to the place; to communicate a certain view of history.

The renaming of the fountain followed an earlier renaming controversy. One of the University's dorms, Nichols Hall, was named after a participant in the infamous Sand Creek Massacre. Even in its own time, the massacre had been denounced, earning condemnation from Indian fighters like Kit Carson. Not surprisingly, the dorm that bore Nichols's name was eventually renamed "Cheyenne Arapahoe" in honor of the Indian tribes whose members Nichols had helped attack.

As with the Trumbo fountain, the dorm's name was changed in order to send subtle messages — messages about what is valued, what is good, and what is bad.

There's nothing inherently wrong with this, of course. The problem only arises when we begin to use taxpayer funded facilities and institutions to carry out these attempts at education.

Thus, in a sense, when approaching the problem of government monuments and memorials, we encounter the same problem we have with public schools. Whose values are going to be pushed, preserved, and exalted? And, who's going to be forced to pay for it?
Ideology Changes Over Time

This problem is further complicated by the fact that these views change over time.

Over time, the "good guys" can change as majority views shift, as new groups take over the machinery of government institutions, and as ideologies change.

In 1961, when Nichols Hall was named, few people apparently cared much about the Sand Creek Massacre. 25 years later, however, views had changed considerably among both students and administrators.

For a very obvious illustration of how these changes takes place, we need look no further than the schools.

In the early days of public schooling — an institution founded by Christian nationalists to push their message — students were forced to read the King James Bible. Catholics were forced to pay taxes so schools could instruct students on how awful and dangerous Catholicism was. Immigrant families from Southern and Eastern Europe were forced to pay for schools that instructed their children on the inferiority of their non-Anglo ethnic groups.

A century later, things have changed considerably. Today, Anglo-Saxons are taught to hate themselves, and while Catholics are still despised (but for different reasons), they now are joined in their pariah status by most other Christian groups as well. Italians and Eastern Europeans who were once treated in public schools as subhuman are now reviled as members of the white oppressor class.

Similar changes have taken place in art and in public monuments and memorials.

Public Memorials Serve the Same Function as Public Schools

But the principle remains the same, whether we're talking about public schools or public monuments: we're using public funds and facilities to "educate" the public about what's good and what's not.

This has long been known by both the people who first erected today's aging monuments, and by the people who now want to tear them down. The leftist who support scrapping certain monuments actively seek to change public monuments and memorials to back up their own worldview because they recognize that it can make a difference in the public imagination. They're fine with forcing the taxpayers to support their own worldview, of course, and actively seek to use public lands, public spaces, public roads, and public buildings to subsidize their efforts. They already succeeded in doing this with public schools decades ago.

The Answer: Privatize the Monuments

In a way, the combined effect of public memorials, monuments, streets, and buildings function to turn public spaces into a type of large open-air social studies class, reinforcing some views, while ignoring others.

Libertarians have long noted the problem of public education: it's impossible to teach history in a value-neutral way, and thus public schools are likely to teach values that support the state and its agendas. Even some conservatives have finally caught on.

To combat this problem, those who object to these elements within public schooling support homeschooling, private schooling, and private-sector alternatives that diminish the role of public institutions.

Governmental public spaces offer the same problem as public schools.

In both cases the answer is the same: minimize the role of government institutions in shaping public ideology, public attitudes, and the public's view of history.

Rather than using publicly funded thoroughfares, parks, and buildings as a means of reinforcing public "education" and "shared history" as we do now, these government facilities should be stripped down to their most basic functions. Providing office space for administrative offices, providing streets for transport, and providing parks for recreation. (The last thing we need is a history lesson from the semi-illiterates on a typical city council.)

Some might argue that all these properties and facilities should be privatized themselves. That's fair enough, but as long as we're forced to live with these facilities, we need not also use them to "honor" politicians or whatever persons the current ruling class happens to find worthy of praise.

The nostalgia lobby will react with horror to this proposition. "Why, you can't do that!" they'll complain. "We'll be robbed of our heritage and history." Even assuming these people could precisely define exactly who "we" is they still need to explain why public property is necessary to preserve this alleged heritage.

After all, by this way of thinking, the preservation of one's culture and heritage relies on a subsidy from the taxpayers, and a nod of assent from government agencies.

Preserving and Promoting Culture Through Private Action

Once upon a time, however, people who actually valued their heritage did not sit around begging the government to protect it for them. Many were willing to actually take action and spend their own money on preserving the heritage that many now rather unconvincingly claim is so important to them.

A good example of the key role of private property in cases such as this can be seen in the work of the Catholic Church in the US — which has never enjoyed majority support from the population or from government institutions. If Catholics were to get their symbols and memorials in front of the public, they were going to have to build them on private property, and that's exactly what they did.

In Denver, for example, the Catholics of the early 20th century knew (correctly) that no public park or government building was going to erect any Catholic-themed art or memorials on their property. So, the Catholics proceeded to erect an enormous cathedral on a hilltop one block from the state capitol. The new cathedral was highly visible and provided easy access to religious ceremonies for the few Catholic politicians and officials who worked at the capitol. It provided meeting space. It contained stained-glass art created by German masters. Moreover, the new building served as a huge symbolic middle finger to the anti-Catholic Ku Klux Klan which was growing in importance in Denver at the time.

So, did Church officials sit around whining about how there was no crucifix on the front lawn of the State Capitol? Did they demand that the taxpayers pay to maintain a central town plaza featuring a statue of Saint Peter? Some probably did. Those who made a difference, though, took action and acquired real estate in prominent places throughout the city. They put universities on that land, and cemeteries, and convents, and friaries, and schools, and even some memorials and statues. Today, next to the cathedral, on a busy street corner, is a large statue of a Catholic pope: John Paul II. It's on private property. It's seen by thousands every day.

And why should the self-appointed protectors of American "traditional" values think they deserve anything different? On the contrary, we'd all have been saved a lot of trouble if the organizations that demanded statues of Confederate generals everywhere had put them on private land instead of in public parks. We'd all be better off if the private owners of the Stone Mountain monument hadn't sold it to the State of Georgia because they were too cheap and lazy to maintain it themselves.

In the past, had the purveyors of publicly-funded culture instead taken a principled and successful stand against using public lands and funds to push a certain view of history, no one would have to now waste his time sitting through city council meetings where politicians decide who deserves a statue, and who is to be thrown in the dustbin of history. Were we to quit using public parks as showcases for public indoctrination, we wouldn't have to worry about the Church of Satan erecting a monument in the "free speech area" of a public park — as they recently did near Minneapolis.

The next time someone wants a statue of some politician, artist, or intellectual — whether they be communists, Confederates, or satanists — they ought to be told to buy a nice little plot of land somewhere — perhaps along a busy street or next to an important street corner in town — and put their statue there.

https://mises.org/blog/privatize-public-monuments

A comment on the article...


jgmoebus • 2 days ago

[i had just finished writing the following and had posted it to Jeffrey Tucker's piece on the FEE site about Charlottesville, when i read Mr McMaken's piece. i'd like to share it as a possible Next step toward implementing what he has suggested.] :

Permit me to propose a simple, easy, efficient, and effective solution to this whole problem with memorials, monuments, and memes about the Confederacy and it's War of Secession [aka, the First American Civil War]:

How about if all governments at the federal, state, and local level offer all those statues, obelisks, and so forth up for sale to the highest bidder? That way, those who want, say, a statue of Robert E Lee where it stands, could buy and thus own it and the property it sits on, and would thus assume responsibility for protecting and preserving it, from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And, those who don't want that statue anywhere in the neighborhood could similarly purchase it and the property it sits on, and do whatever they want to do to it, including destroying it.

It would be a great way for governments at all levels to generate some cash flow, and to eliminate the expenditure of federal, state, and/or local resources on keeping the peace between folks who want to protest ~ and counter-protest ~ what happens to a particular piece of metal, or building of stone, or whatever.

Plus, it would give all them alt-Right/White, neo-Nazis, etc, and all them BLMrs, ANTIFAs, etc [and everybody else who thinks that all this is a seriously serious issue] a chance to literally put their monies where there mouths are.

The same concept could be equally applied to mementos of those slave-owners [even while serving as POTUS] Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe, eh?

1stvermont
08-19-2017, 07:59 AM
​Wow what a great idea.



Permit me to propose a simple, easy, efficient, and effective solution to this whole problem with memorials, monuments, and memes about the Confederacy and it's War of Secession [aka, the First American Civil War]:

How about if all governments at the federal, state, and local level offer all those statues, obelisks, and so forth up for sale to the highest bidder? That way, those who want, say, a statue of Robert E Lee where it stands, could buy and thus own it and the property it sits on, and would thus assume responsibility for protecting and preserving it, from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And, those who don't want that statue anywhere in the neighborhood could similarly purchase it and the property it sits on, and do whatever they want to do to it, including destroying it.

It would be a great way for governments at all levels to generate some cash flow, and to eliminate the expenditure of federal, state, and/or local resources on keeping the peace between folks who want to protest ~ and counter-protest ~ what happens to a particular piece of metal, or building of stone, or whatever.

Plus, it would give all them alt-Right/White, neo-Nazis, etc, and all them BLMrs, ANTIFAs, etc [and everybody else who thinks that all this is a seriously serious issue] a chance to literally put their monies where there mouths are.

Swordsmyth
08-19-2017, 11:30 AM
Rand should propose a bill to do this with the Federal monuments and to prohibit the feds from making any more, the states may have the power to erect monuments but the Feds do not.

Anti Federalist
08-19-2017, 12:58 PM
Nice idea, but for one, very large problem.

There is no "private" property.

There is government property.

And there is property that you rent from government, with varying degrees of use allowed.

That's it.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 01:10 PM
Nice idea, but for one, very large problem.

There is no "private" property.

There is government property.

And there is property that you rent from government, with varying degrees of use allowed.

That's it.

Of course but it's still the best idea I've heard. Hell, I might be interested in a few lawn ornaments.

phill4paul
08-19-2017, 01:17 PM
Nice idea, but for one, very large problem.

There is no "private" property.

There is government property.

And there is property that you rent from government, with varying degrees of use allowed.

That's it.

Well, since the majority of these statues came from funds raised by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, I suppose they could be returned to them. Or let them rent the spaces they are in and let the UDoC and the Sons of Confederate Veterans provide maintenance and security.
Of course this won't happen. Nothing short of a complete purge will satisfy the autistic screechers.

William Tell
08-19-2017, 01:27 PM
And why should the self-appointed protectors of American "traditional" values think they deserve anything different? On the contrary, we'd all have been saved a lot of trouble if the organizations that demanded statues of Confederate generals everywhere had put them on private land instead of in public parks. We'd all be better off if the private owners of the Stone Mountain monument hadn't sold it to the State of Georgia because they were too cheap and lazy to maintain it themselves.

In the past, had the purveyors of publicly-funded culture instead taken a principled and successful stand against using public lands and funds to push a certain view of history, no one would have to now waste his time sitting through city council meetings where politicians decide who deserves a statue, and who is to be thrown in the dustbin of history. Were we to quit using public parks as showcases for public indoctrination, we wouldn't have to worry about the Church of Satan erecting a monument in the "free speech area" of a public park — as they recently did near Minneapolis.

The next time someone wants a statue of some politician, artist, or intellectual — whether they be communists, Confederates, or satanists — they ought to be told to buy a nice little plot of land somewhere — perhaps along a busy street or next to an important street corner in town — and put their statue there. OK, fine. Fair enough point but not really relevant to the current debate. What about the monuments that are already in place? Like Phill pointed out some were originally paid for by groups like the SCV. The question is what to do with monuments that are currently in the possession of state and local governments. I'd say leave them alone. If you really want them gone donate them to the SCV or some other group that cares about them. But that won't happen because the governments don't want to be seen giving anything to the SCV.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 01:34 PM
OK, fine. Fair enough point but not really relevant to the current debate. What about the monuments that are already in place? Like Phill pointed out some were originally paid for by groups like the SCV. The question is what to do with monuments that are currently in the possession of state and local governments. I'd say leave them alone or donate them to the SCV or some other group that cares about them. But that won't happen because the governments don't want to be seen giving anything to the SCV.

If they were donated, they should have the option of moving them to another location. Clearly, they can be moved and it's certainly better than seeing them thrown in a garbage bin.

XNavyNuke
08-19-2017, 06:19 PM
If they were donated, they should have the option of moving them to another location. Clearly, they can be moved and it's certainly better than seeing them thrown in a garbage bin.

Absolutely! Collection of all historical monuments, personal items, and documents should be more centralized and placed in privately held areas. The carbon footprints currently left by the various protesters is horrendous. Centralized, regional collection facilities will enable more efficient protests with the maximum number of participants. Personal attacks, destruction, and firebombing will no longer be crimes occurring on government held lands, so the Feds can just mind their own damned business. Owners of the antiquities can defend them, or not, as they so choose.

XNN

nikcers
08-19-2017, 06:24 PM
Nothing is private when the government can take everything from you anyways. This is always my argument against the privatize everything crowd. We should take away the governments authority to steal from people then we can talk about privatization.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 06:29 PM
Nothing is private when the government can take everything from you anyways. This is always my argument against the privatize everything crowd. We should take away the governments authority to steal from people then we can talk about privatization.

"We" can actually talk about both.

nikcers
08-19-2017, 06:31 PM
"We" can actually talk about both.
Can we have repeal first, I learned this lesson recently they like to pull the shell game in politics.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 06:40 PM
Can we have repeal first, I learned this lesson recently they like to pull the shell game in politics.

No one would love to see taxes disappear more than I BUT in order to convince enough people that "we" don't need taxes to pay for government services "we" need to present them with actual ideas on how things could work without taxes.

Don't worry nickers, this isn't going to actually happen.:rolleyes:

nikcers
08-19-2017, 06:46 PM
No one would love to see taxes disappear more than I BUT in order to convince enough people that "we" don't need taxes to pay for government services "we" need to present them with actual ideas on how things could work without taxes.

Don't worry nickers, this isn't going to actually happen.:rolleyes:

I was talking civil asset forfeiture- you know baby steps towards freedom. Then we can talk about money printing and taxation :D

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 06:49 PM
I was talking civil asset forfeiture- you know baby steps towards freedom. Then we can talk about money printing and taxation :D

I missed the segue.

Why don't you start a thread on how we shouldn't discuss anything until asses forfeiture is dealt with?

nikcers
08-19-2017, 06:53 PM
I missed the segue.

Why don't you start a thread on how we shouldn't discuss anything until asses forfeiture is dealt with?
I thought we were talking about privatization of government property, so you want to transfer assets from the public sector to the private sector, how is that not a shell game if they can just transfer it back?

phill4paul
08-19-2017, 06:53 PM
I missed the segue.

Why don't you start a thread on how we shouldn't discuss anything until asses forfeiture is dealt with?

Wait? Wut?

http://picsmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Bitches-be-like-squats-work-Donkey-Meme.jpg

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 07:07 PM
I thought we were talking about privatization of government property, so you want to transfer assets from the public sector to the private sector, how is that not a shell game if they can just transfer it back?

I never claimed the game wasn't rigged and I've posted lots of articles on civil asses;) forfeiture. However, I do think coming up with ideas on privatization is a worthwhile endeavor. Clearly, you don't. *shrug*

Is that all we're allowed to discuss right now? I must've missed the memo.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 07:08 PM
Muh asses.


Wait? Wut?

http://picsmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Bitches-be-like-squats-work-Donkey-Meme.jpg

nikcers
08-19-2017, 07:10 PM
I never claimed the game wasn't rigged and I've posted lots of articles on civil asses;) forfeiture. However, I do think coming up with ideas on privatization is a worthwhile endeavor. Clearly, you don't. *shrug*

Is that all we're allowed to discuss right now? I must've missed the memo.

No just thought we could discuss what the logical conclusion of this comes to when the government gets to take away property and basically give it out to who they want. I think its an easy way to erase our history in the long run, freedom hasn't been around for very long and clearly those monuments are whats left of our history, and tell us how we got here.

heavenlyboy34
08-19-2017, 07:29 PM
Nothing is private when the government can take everything from you anyways. This is always my argument against the privatize everything crowd. We should take away the governments authority to steal from people then we can talk about privatization.
Just FYI, that's not an argument.


argument
noun (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noun) ar·gu·ment \ˈär-gyə-mənt\
a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view

nikcers
08-19-2017, 07:33 PM
Just FYI, that's not an argument.
Liberty should be the first argument not the last.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 07:38 PM
No just thought we could discuss what the logical conclusion of this comes to when the government gets to take away property and basically give it out to who they want. I think its an easy way to erase our history in the long run, freedom hasn't been around for very long and

Who do the monuments belong to?

If they're going to be torn down and thrown in the trash (which is what's happening) is not better that they're either returned to whoever donated them or sold?


clearly those monuments are whats left of our history, and tell us how we got here.

From the op...and actually, they don't tell me how I got here. I know exactly how I got here. However, I do hate to see them destroyed and would be happy to donate to keep them up. I actually am a great-granddaughter of a Confederate soldier, btw. Just so you don't think I'm some asshole who wants to see them destroyed. I really don't and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Imagine for a moment the memorials that will be erected 20 years from now...*shudders*


Public Memorials Serve the Same Function as Public Schools

But the principle remains the same, whether we're talking about public schools or public monuments: we're using public funds and facilities to "educate" the public about what's good and what's not.

This has long been known by both the people who first erected today's aging monuments, and by the people who now want to tear them down. The leftist who support scrapping certain monuments actively seek to change public monuments and memorials to back up their own worldview because they recognize that it can make a difference in the public imagination. They're fine with forcing the taxpayers to support their own worldview, of course, and actively seek to use public lands, public spaces, public roads, and public buildings to subsidize their efforts. They already succeeded in doing this with public schools decades ago.

The Answer: Privatize the Monuments

In a way, the combined effect of public memorials, monuments, streets, and buildings function to turn public spaces into a type of large open-air social studies class, reinforcing some views, while ignoring others.

Libertarians have long noted the problem of public education: it's impossible to teach history in a value-neutral way, and thus public schools are likely to teach values that support the state and its agendas. Even some conservatives have finally caught on.

To combat this problem, those who object to these elements within public schooling support homeschooling, private schooling, and private-sector alternatives that diminish the role of public institutions.

Governmental public spaces offer the same problem as public schools.

In both cases the answer is the same: minimize the role of government institutions in shaping public ideology, public attitudes, and the public's view of history.

Rather than using publicly funded thoroughfares, parks, and buildings as a means of reinforcing public "education" and "shared history" as we do now, these government facilities should be stripped down to their most basic functions. Providing office space for administrative offices, providing streets for transport, and providing parks for recreation. (The last thing we need is a history lesson from the semi-illiterates on a typical city council.)

Some might argue that all these properties and facilities should be privatized themselves. That's fair enough, but as long as we're forced to live with these facilities, we need not also use them to "honor" politicians or whatever persons the current ruling class happens to find worthy of praise.

The nostalgia lobby will react with horror to this proposition. "Why, you can't do that!" they'll complain. "We'll be robbed of our heritage and history." Even assuming these people could precisely define exactly who "we" is they still need to explain why public property is necessary to preserve this alleged heritage.

After all, by this way of thinking, the preservation of one's culture and heritage relies on a subsidy from the taxpayers, and a nod of assent from government agencies.

Preserving and Promoting Culture Through Private Action

Once upon a time, however, people who actually valued their heritage did not sit around begging the government to protect it for them. Many were willing to actually take action and spend their own money on preserving the heritage that many now rather unconvincingly claim is so important to them.

nikcers
08-19-2017, 07:41 PM
argument


a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view
I am not letting your pedantic refusal to argue against my comment win the argument. The crony capitalists own everything in this country, and they will own all of the government if you privatize everything people let them.

nikcers
08-19-2017, 07:44 PM
Who do the monuments belong to?

If they're going to be torn down and thrown in the trash (which is what's happening) is not better that they're either returned to whoever donated them or sold?



From the op...and actually, they don't tell me how I got here. I know exactly how I got here. However, I do hate to see them destroyed and would be happy to donate to keep them up. I actually am a great-granddaughter of a Confederate soldier, btw. Just so you don't think I'm some $#@! who wants to see them destroyed. I really don't and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Imagine for a moment the memorials that will be erected 20 years from now...*shudders*
I don't trust the average American to know the difference between heaven and hell because we had a huge amount of our country flocking to uncle bernie for free stuff. We need to revisit history if that ever happens.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 07:49 PM
I am not letting your pedantic refusal to argue against my comment win the argument. The crony capitalists own everything in this country, and they will own all of the government if you privatize everything people let them.

:confused:
If they already own everything then they already own all of the government.

phill4paul
08-19-2017, 07:50 PM
Muh asses.

"Where's my mule?
Where's my forty acres
Where's my dream
Mr Emancipator…"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBAubJJt2mU

heavenlyboy34
08-19-2017, 07:53 PM
I am not letting your pedantic refusal to argue against my comment win the argument. The crony capitalists own everything in this country, and they will own all of the government if you privatize everything people let them.
Meh, call it pedantic if you wish. I call it preference for logic over #feelz.

nikcers
08-19-2017, 07:57 PM
:confused:
If they already own everything then they already own all of the government.
well sorry if the vernacular wasn't clear, they own the means to production, they can print money therefore they can buy everything except that which can't be bought, and that's currently things like public assets, they can currently use government force to take stuff away from individuals and give them to themselves, but not collective American government property and your rights that's currently the only thing not for sale. You can't buy a minuteman ICBM no matter how rich you are.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 08:03 PM
well sorry if the vernacular wasn't clear, they own the means to production, they can print money therefore they can buy everything except that which can't be bought, and that's currently things like public assets, they can currently use government force to take stuff away from individuals and give them to themselves, but not collective American government property and your rights that's currently the only thing not for sale. You can't buy a minuteman ICBM no matter how rich you are.

Like statues? Well, guess what? They're being taken down and thrown in the trash heap.

nikcers
08-19-2017, 08:07 PM
Like statues? Well, guess what? They're being taken down and thrown in the trash heap.
That's a failure of the state and should be treated that way. The state should protect the property better, and there are ways of doing it. There are people like you and me who would pay the state to do these things. This is where i split hairs with anarchists who want no government.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 08:13 PM
That's a failure of the state and should be treated that way. The state should protect the property better, and there are ways of doing it. There are people like you and me who would pay the state to do these things. This is where i split hairs with anarchists who want no government.

I'd rather pay someone I trust to do these things. I don't actually trust the state.

nikcers
08-19-2017, 08:16 PM
I'd rather pay someone I trust to do these things. I don't actually trust the state.
Fine with me, I am not talking security theater like the TSA. I am talking about minimal government not no government.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 08:25 PM
Fine with me, I am not talking security theater like the TSA. I am talking about minimal government not no government.

Your idea of minimal government includes preserving statues and monuments? Mine doesn't and not surprisingly, they're doing a shitty job of it.

nikcers
08-19-2017, 08:41 PM
Your idea of minimal government includes preserving statues and monuments? Mine doesn't and not surprisingly, they're doing a $#@!ty job of it.
I would like to preserve ideas of all kinds, good ones and bad ones. I don't see monuments of old of people who followed different morals as failures or bad people because I don't think that as a human society we should white wash our failure. Failure is a way to prove how not to do something.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 08:46 PM
I would like to preserve ideas of all kinds, good ones and bad ones. I don't see monuments of old of people who followed different morals because I don't think that as a human society we should white wash our failure. Failure is a way to prove how not to do something.

I agree, I think. (You have a bit of a word salad going on there in the middle. ) I just don't happen to think the government are trustworthy custodians of such things.

nikcers
08-19-2017, 08:54 PM
I agree, I think. (You have a bit of a word salad going on there in the middle. ) I just don't happen to think the government are trustworthy custodians of such things.
We need to replace mediocrity with meritocracy. That's the biggest problem with government which causes problems like this. Use it or lose it budgeting, or lack of budgeting in general. If we actually cared about cost of government a lot of the cronyism could be reigned in on. You don't have problems with people putting graffiti on minutemen ICBM's.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 09:05 PM
We need to replace mediocrity with meritocracy. That's the biggest problem with government which causes problems like this. Use it or lose it budgeting, or lack of budgeting in general. If we actually cared about cost of government a lot of the cronyism could be reigned in on. You don't have problems with people putting graffiti on minutemen ICBM's.

Good luck with that and good luck keeping it if you're going to trust voters and voting machines.

nikcers
08-19-2017, 09:26 PM
Good luck with that and good luck keeping it if you're going to trust voters and voting machines.
The US government has been circumventing voters and voting machines in countries worldwide, its why its laughable when we criticize Russia for influencing our elections. I think that we could start by having an honest discussion about election hacking, we started having one in 2000 and then it went nowhere. The US government is the election hackers, we need to have a real election.

Suzanimal
08-19-2017, 09:33 PM
The US government has been circumventing voters and voting machines in countries worldwide, its why its laughable when we criticize Russia for influencing our elections. I think that we could start by having an honest discussion about election hacking, we started having one in 2000 and then it went nowhere. The US government is the election hackers, we need to have a real election.

And once we get all that fixed then take a look at the average voter. By then, there won't be any statues left to worry about. It's just easier and more efficient to take it out of government's hands all together.

heavenlyboy34
08-19-2017, 10:20 PM
And once we get all that fixed then take a look at the average voter. By then, there won't be any statues left to worry about. It's just easier and more efficient to take it out of government's hands all together.
Suz wins the thread.

Anti Federalist
08-19-2017, 11:16 PM
Who do the monuments belong to?

If they're going to be torn down and thrown in the trash (which is what's happening) is not better that they're either returned to whoever donated them or sold?

No, that's not permitted.

The ideas need to crushed, anything and everything showing white people in positions of power, "supremacy" or even in a positive light must be purged.

Everything "we" (and in this case I'm just talking to you, as I know, from your pictures, you are a white woman) are is based on privilege that was gained through oppression.

Everything we stand for, everything we hold valuable, any institutions, ideals, philosophies and traditions must be wiped out and removed from the public square.

This is the new regime's prime directive and they have made it very clear they intend to carry it out.

goldenequity
08-19-2017, 11:30 PM
private property :)

Monument To ‘Unknown Confederate Soldiers’ Being Built In Alabama
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/19/monument-unknown-confederate-soldiers-being-built-/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz45KQP1eho

A Confederate memorial is slated to be erected this month near Montgomery, Alabama, notwithstanding mounting efforts to dismantle similar monuments across the country.

The monument to “unknown Confederate soldiers” is currently being installed next to the Dry Creek RV Park in Brantley, Ala., and will be formally unveiled during an afternoon ceremony slated for Aug. 27, AL.com reported Friday.

“The public’s invited,” Jimmy Hill, commander of the Alabama division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, told the website. “Anyone who wants to can come to celebrate the unveiling of another monument to Confederate soldiers.”

nikcers
08-20-2017, 09:43 AM
The ideas need to crushed, anything and everything showing white people in positions of power, "supremacy" or even in a positive light must be purged.
Here and I thought they were trying to eliminate white guilt, white people are already killing themselves no need to destroy their history of dominance- wash it all so its just politically correctness- either that or its just sour grapes over the election. I could see the left blaming what they see as the symbol for the upset of their election.